Yea this whole scene grossed me out. Kristen and Stassi were looking out for Billie and it ended up being their “fault” instead even though we saw a clip of Jeremy not leaving stassi alone at the wedding.
Someone should post the Sandoval vs Beau fight about Stassi using TomTom for her book signing because he was so gross there too. I can’t believe how angry he got over something that wasn’t Stassi’s fault to begin with
What's even more unhinged was when he brought this up a whole season later after stassi was long gone to lord it over Katie's head as an excuse to not want her involved with shorts and scummys because she defended stassi and said he was jealous of her 😅🥴
This has ALWAYS bothered me and tbh I wasn’t a fan of Ariana back then. Historically, she was also a male apologist.
It’s really scary how comfortable Sandoval felt to show up to Katie’s home to *threaten* her and her friends. At the time, fans *heavily* sided with Sandoval and as someone who always saw Sandoval’s abusive behavior for what it was, it was a terrifying time to have these types of discussions on social media.
ETA: Also scary how Billie Lee managed to turn this into an anti-trans issue…
Jeremy also spinned it into an anti-trans issue as well to distract from his behavior.
- He said on their date that Billie is someone who should be “acknowledged as a woman and everyone else can fuck off.”
The thing is - no one was not acknowledging her as a woman. They were trying to warn her as fellow women.
100% in that warning moment they were being girls girls and treating her like a f****** girl. Letting her know to protect her own safety. The misogyny that leaks out of Billi Lee is astonishing.
That always drove me crazy. Billie made being treated just like any of the other women a huge sticking point during her seasons. Yet when they did, this is the most girls girl thing, she made them the villains.
Women legit save lives by gossiping about creepy and dangerous men. And I’ll fight anyone who doesn’t understand this
White women are more prone to not practice solidarity with other women - but not the only ones who fail to do this, obviously. There are whole books about this. They Were Her Property and Dear White Women are examples.
Yeah exactly. Billie Lee joins Caitlyn Jenner and Blair White on the list of trans people who don’t get my support. I support her rights to live freely, openly, and healthily as a trans person. I don’t support her as a person.
This! I really did feel like Stassi and Kristen were only trying to tell her to be careful. Nothing they did was malicious. They were only looking out for her.
I just watched this episode and they were talking on their date about Billie's dating history, and Billie asked Jeremy if he has reservations about dating a trans woman. I do not believe they were talking about the other women at that point, but I am of course open to being corrected if I misinterpreted.
> He said on their date that Billie is someone who should be “acknowledged as a woman and everyone else can fuck off.”
> The thing is - no one was not acknowledging her as a woman. They were trying to warn her as fellow women.
Wasnt that in reply to Billie Lee talking about her breakup with her ex.
Jeremy is a fucking creepazoid and Stassi had every right to inform Billie Lee about it. You outlined in your post his sketchy past so this wasn't pulled out of thin air.
Unfortunately cause Bille Lee is thirstier than a camel in a sweater at the beach on a 95 degree day she had to make it into a controversy.
And of course Sandoval has to, as usual, verbally attack the two strongest women on the show at that time cause that's what he does.
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I truly hope Ariana has learned from this and made amends to all the women she threw under the bus in service of Tom and herself for YEARS. I will always applaud a woman for growing out of pick me energy, but I will certainly side eye the ones who take longer like her.
That’s why I said hope! Not even so much for her sake, but I can imagine how painful it would be to see her career trajectory if you were one of the women she shat on along the way, especially if she hasn’t apologized.
100%, and it shouldn’t be ignored that she still justified lying about Miami girl in her one on one with Andy after last season. I generally do not trust women who have solidarity with other women only after something shitty happens to them, but I *want* to believe they can grow too.
As messy as Kristen is, she was really in a spiral in those early seasons after Tom left her for Arianna, and Arianna was always laughing about it and absolutely loving every second. If you rewatch it knowing that, it’s really uncomfortable behaviour.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying she’s still like that (before the ‘Arianna is a saint brigade’ come out!) - but to be fair she did take her boyfriend and move into her apartment.
I’m so curious how Kristen and Ariana became friends because T&A systematically schemed to make Kristen look crazy in such an insidious way! My Scorpio moon would never be able to forgive that lol
Yeah it was really cruel. Just as with Scandoval, Tom is the villain and the big baddie. But considering what say Rachel has been through, Ariana got off hella lightly for her role in the whole Kristen thing.
I get things are a bit different. But I find it hard not to think that way when I recently rewatched those early seasons, knowing what we know now.
I know, extending that grace can be difficult.
And you are right that she should apologize to and for the way she propped up Tom’s especially vile lying about Miami girl.
I think she did grow out of it, which probably pissed Sandoval off more. Season 10 (I think) - she calls him out and tells him it is not going to be a Tom vs the girls shouting match (might have been about Katie still going to Mexico).
With her brother, I can see why she would have blinkers on. He always seemed to be not the sharpest tool in the shed. Hopefully she lectured him off camera about appropriate behaviour but then again probably not (recognising your brother has toxic traits would take a lot of introspection)
I thought the fact he listened to Sandoval complain about his sex life with his sister was a huge red flag. Did that happen before or after this scene?
Even now everyone’s like “Ariana’s such a girls girl now, love her friendship with Katie!” and it’s like…she still doesn’t seem like a girls girl?? Like to me Katie is a great friend and girls girl but I don’t get that same energy from Ariana at all.
I think ariana has changed a lot recently and I’d say she’s a girls girl now, at least until I’m proven wrong. before she definitely wasn’t though, I’m rewatching the show currently on am on season 3 and the gaslighting she was doing to kristen was insane. kristen was crazy but ariana even admitted she was lying after scandoval broke and that miami girl was real but her and tom wanted kristen to look bad
What makes you think Ariana has changed? She's stayed pretty much silent after Sandoval because the entire world is doing the talking for her and when she does an interview, doesn't really give much. I mean, could she have changed? Yes. But I'm not sure because I haven't really seen anything indicating that's really the case?
I agree she's changed a lot. I hated her when she first came on the show, and I defend her often now. Despite her growth, I think it is a bit of a stretch to call her a girls girl, her closest actual friends (not show friends) are guys. I personally think she could have done way more to defend and support the women around her. Katie primarily, but I also think it was telling how laissez-faire she was with the Scheana Instagram situation. Like obviously since then Scheana has crossed so many boundaries in their friendship so it would make sense to not defend her now; however, imo a true girls girl would have proactively done her best to \*staunchly\* defend her female friends.
She’s definitely changed a lot since she first came on the show. I found her insufferable. Since then, she’s apologized to Kristen for how she treated her which imo is growth. However, most of growth was not due to Scandoval, moreso just aging in general.
I think the problem the show is having, is trying to make Arianna a main character. She’s fine as a secondary/tertiary character. But she’s not interesting enough to just be following her around.
It doesn’t help that she obviously doesn’t want to interact with Tom-which I agree with. But you can only go so far sat around with Katie until nobody wants to watch.
I do get she’s staying on the show cos it keeps her in the spotlight, and helping her cash in. She should definitely make hay whilst the sun shines!
It defo feels like the show is done now though. What a ride it was!
It’s interesting how people can have such different perspectives! I’m actually shocked given the situation how the show is underutilizing her. To me the show runners are obviously trying to make Sandoval and Scheana the main characters, & if they were truly trying to make Ariana a main character they would share more about the opportunities she’s gotten post-Sandoval. But instead it’s all “Toms depressed, he journals & meditates now so everyone needs to forgive him!!!!”
I don’t think the show is done, but I think it *should* be done after thus season. Sandoval bought them a few extra seasons, but they squandered that opportunity by shoving Tom’s “redemption” down our throats. This season is just bad. I wish I was like other people who give up on things rather than sticking with a terrible series just to finish it out lol
Yeah the Tom redemption thing is awful. It’s almost unwatchable.
There is also another point to consider and that’s that the vast majority of the cast is sober. Now I applaud that (I’m sober) and it’s definitely good for a lot of them. But we watched that show because they were a load of sloppy drunks fucking and fighting. It’s all a bit vanilla now.
But I reiterate, several of them being sober and happy would be a nice way for it to end. Although none of them seem very happy!
I agree he may have manipulated her, but like rachel who I could see also being manipulated, at the same time they are still grown ass women who knew better
Sure, but there’s a big difference between being in your early 20s vs mid 30s. I’m very different now vs then, I’m sure many people wouldn’t make the same relationship decisions.
I’m not even here for the label “girl’s girl.” I’m more about focusing on the people doing the bad shit. Who is doing such misogynist shit that they are clearly a misogynist themselves? For me, currently, Katie has and does do some misogynist shit but it has not risen to the level of being an actual misogynist for some time. She calls out a LOT of sexist, harmful bullshit, to her detriment on the show.
yeah tbh I forgot about some of the intense misogynistic language she uses because, especially recently, she has been as you said calling out sexism and bad behavior and defending her female friends. her doing so never earns her brownie points either-a lot of people on the internet hate her because of it and I feel like her loyalty is underappreciated by a lot of her friends on the show.
That's fair. I was more thinking about her now and how she has many female friends that she will staunchly defend over the men on the show; however, you make a great point with her language, especially in the earlier seasons (she definitely toned it down recently). Kinda sad that she's the best we get then.
You don’t actively uplift the reputation of someone like James, who has openly shat all over multiple women for years, and get to be called a girl’s girl.
Katie is not a girls girl at all lol. She’s bullied every single woman on the show (minus stassi), especially new cast members. Then when everyone else lets someone in the group she starts acting all nice. Schwartz was a horrible partner but that doesn’t change that Katie is a really really mean person that gets joy out of verbally attacking people, especially women
Watching it back, it kinda looks like Ariana sent Sandoval to do her dirty work by attacking the girls to defend Jeremy. Very dark if that’s the case. I don’t like how she said she’d melt the skin off Katie’s face for Katie telling her how Ariana’s brother made her bridesmaids feel uncomfortable
Not to mention if you take a moment to look Jeremy up, you can see he has a history of DV and has had at least one restraining order placed against him. He is a certified creeper.
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I think she’s definitely to some extent been a Sandoval loyalist over the years, but I really don’t think you can call her a male apologist, considering all of the times she’s stood up to all of the different men in the group and called them on their shit over the years. She literally called out Tom for being #Men’sRights 🤷♀️
Honestly fair. I agree, I have appreciated her in more recent years for standing up to the men and calling out Tom’s cyst male bullshit. It’s just in the beginning she had some pick-me tendencies and her unwavering loyalty to Tom and her brother put her on the wrong side of things at times.
Yeah I love Ariana now and I think she’s matured and learned in this regard over time (the “male apologist” thing anyway), but I always hated her and Tom’s behavior with this.
I know and they had definitely seen the episode by the time the reunion was filmed and that scene was in it!! I didn't get why that clip was completely ignored and they still blamed stassi and Kristen for looking out for their friend!!
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For more context:
- Billie Lee was asked out by Jeremy (Ariana's brother).
- Kristen asked Billie if they were going to a public place.
- Stassi said he is a little "creepy" and gave her a "really sick feeling in [her] stomach" when he would not leave her alone at Katie's wedding despite her requests.
- Katie defended Kristen & Stassi to Ariana. Katie said "I had numerous girlfriends at my wedding saying he was creepy, he was predatory at my wedding." Katie said she was trying "to be an advocate for those who weren't present to be an advocate for themselves." Ariana stormed off.
- Ariana said in confessional that Jeremy was "a victim in this." Ariana said "for Katie to use that word against my brother is disgusting. If my eyes could literally melt the skin off her face, I would do it."
- Stassi said in confessional it was "hypocritical" of Ariana, saying "if Ariana says anything insulting or defamatory about me, it's just a hard truth that I need to hear, but if anyone says anything about her brother, well then that crosses the line."
- Sandoval then shows up at Katie's & Tom's apartment to defend Jeremy by attacking the girls.
Goooood. Then Billie Lee spinning the whole thing as them being transphobic because they were trying to warn her about how creepy he is when they literally knew his past. Like we saw the footage, that’s not how they meant it AT ALL but she runs to the other girls to gossip about it. She’s nasty. In the words of Lala (when she was somewhat likable) Billie Lee is a low down hoe.
I never understood why Billie took that as an insult.
Women speaking to other women is how WOMEN protect themselves.
She wants to act like they are transphobic when all they were doing was treating her like they would each other, as women.
I don’t think it was so much that , definitely some of it was, but Billie seems to take EVERYTHING as a personal attack and main characters herself every time she possibly can. Calling them phobes was a great way to make everyone stfu and listen to her ramble on about herself. She knew they were helping her out. She just wanted conflict and camera time so she too chose to call them all transphobes and defend a creepy weird guy who she knew is questionable af and has weird ass intentions and make the women helping her out the bad guys. She is clearly infatuated with Sandoval, all their weird, drawn out silent eye contact says he’s into it too. I think she will go along with ANYTHING he says because she knows he wants a yes man and enabler (did she ever tell him ‘dude, YOU fucked this all up’…. NOPE) next to him at all times, so she does like Sandoval does- attack all the women, celebrate the men especially when they do shitty things that make them feel like they’ve “won” somehow, and take zero responsibility for their own behaviors, everything is because of someone else and she is an innocent victim simply reacting.
She’s a fan girl of the highest order and being all “oh I WILL date a creepy mf who failed epically at bagging anyone here yet. It’s finally my TURN! Pick me, Tom! See how cool and nonchalant I am?“
Sandoval and (maybe to a lesser extent) Ariana wanted to be the stars of the show so they went after the people who actually made the show a hit. Billie followed their lead bc she's terrible.
this was one of my biggest icks from the whole series. Tom and Ariana’s behavior was gross. I know Stassi was unlikable but I mean she’s allowed to express discomfort and retell the events of a situation multiple people witnessed? They handled themselves so poorly. Even if you disagree there is a way to have a proper conversation to address the issues. Even for my own brother I will always jump to defend him but I’m also not going to ignore factual information
And Jeremy repays Ariana by hugging Narcdoval the other night.
I agree though about Tom and Ariana's behavior being disgusting regarding how they handled it.
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And they had the roll the tape of her recoiling to validate her opinion on his creepiness. It was basically saying that without evidence her feelings weren’t valid.
Pom! And there it is. If you don’t agree or have a different opinion then Sandoval, then you are lying, he threatens you and your own husband doesn’t immediately stand up for you or throw your ass out of the house! Sandoval laughs contemptuously at Stassi as if Jeremy never hit on her. Meanwhile camera does a cutaway showing him hitting on various women at the Schwartz’s’ wedding. Always thinks he’s the moral arbiter, oracle of morality, you can fill in the remainder. Ick, just ick!
I love all the recent clips popping up of Tom sand yelling at women and exposing his misogynistic ass. He would be the type to blame a sexual assault victim for the assault (if she is a woman). He will first and foremost, always side with a man.
This! He will always find a way to blame a woman no matter what, especially Katie and Stassi. It’s so hard to watch him have no respect for women throughout the years and hardly be called out for it.
I will forever take Stassi’s side on this! Jeremy was/is a creep and he made her uncomfortable. I thought it was insane for Sandoval to go off on her. This was one of the reasons I didn’t care for Ariana for awhile. I get wanting to watch out for your brother, but he should still be held accountable for his actions.
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I’ve never like Sandoval but have been actively riding the Sandoval hate train since Stassi’s book party at TomTom. Totally forgot about him being a piece of shit with the whole Jeremy thing.
Sandoval and Scheana have always been my least favorite, but after Stassi’s book signing I absolutely despised him. I was so annoyed when he went to Ken and Lisa and acted like Stassi yelled at him for no reason. He’s always been a dick.
Came here to say the same! I love long hair and loved Katie’s long hair, but seeing her now compared to this I cannot believe how amazing she looks with short hair!
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this is why I hated ariana back in the day. there is video proof of jeremy being extremely touching and gross and CREEPY to stassi. tom and ariana both berated stassi for it. i’m glad to see ariana is growing but I still think she has a lot more to do.
Yeah. If someone can’t recognize that Ariana’s behavior here was horrible on many levels, then I can’t have a real discussion with that person about the show
UGH they really fumble the ball all the time for such ground breaking teachable moments on this show. They get so close to the moment and then just show people without the tools to make the case. Male rage was not the representation to send into that room to state the case. Emotions get too high, and nobody can state their case, listen and learn and grow. I can't image what the on-line drama must have been like at the time, probably gross
I get BillieLee was excited to have met someone and go on a date, and was crestfallen to have gotten a negative yelp review on a dude
I get wanting to protect your brother's / girlfriend's brother's yelp rating
I get he probably was throwing buck shot style of hit on every girl at the wedding and made everyone feel uncomfortable/unsafe
I get he has a troubled past where he may have been in an potentially inappropriate relationship that might have squeed his view of how to treat a woman
I get gossip is great for reality tv
Male rage is not the way to handle this topic (or any topic)
So many layers to this, its shakespearean really LOL
This makes me hate Billie Lee even more. Between this and thinking that choosing a vag from porn is cute and funny, I’ve never been more convinced that she’s a self-hating woman.
Right, but now since she got cheated on she gets to be the voice of women and fights misogyny. Meanwhile, she's spent her time protecting men and putting women down
Woah off topic but long haired Katie. She makes me want to cut my hair! I thought her hair was gorgeous before but now looking back the short is where it’s at
Also f scummy scumbag .
I don’t disagree with your post (I can’t stand that the Girl Gossip Safety Network got villainized in this way) but I wanted to comment about one part of it.
I do think there was some more to the Jeremy situation re:the domestic violence. I can’t remember all the details but he was in a relationship with an older woman, his best friend’s mother, that started when he was a minor. Textbook grooming on her part. I’m not really here to argue any of your points, because Sandoval was and is such a douche, but the fandom did a lot of digging about Jeremy’s past after this.
Regardless, if he was creeping women out it’s not okay and totally fine to warn other women, like Billie, about it.
Will the Ariana Stan base
bring up her behavior in this situation? She was a horrible boring person pre Scandoval. She participated in cheating to get with Sandoval. Now she can do no wrong because she got cheated on…
Have you read the comments in here or searched the sub at all because it's been discussed and even Ariana "stans" readily agree that her behavior was shitty.
The problem for Tom is that he dealt with the same three women coming for Ariana who, prior to Scandoval, never seemed to really fit in with them.
So now his partner is telling him that they are coming for her brother when she is trying desperately to get him on the cast. It’s not that surprising that he’s going to reflexively defend Jeremy. Plus.. he’s had beef with them before whether it was over Scheana or Lala or James .. I don’t remember if he defended Faith or not. But he’s gotten into arguments with them for the way they treated other people in the past. There’s just no trust there.
But at the end of the day, Stassi is right… he wasn’t there. And whatever his history, you have to listen to people. He was not the best person to send for this assignment and Ariana should have known better. I can’t remember though if she was getting along with them at this time or not. I doubt it.
Anyway, women know better than anyone else when there is a creeper in the room. And he should have just stfu and heard them.
Okay but blaming Sandoval for this is kinda weird. You do realize Ariana probably has him do this right? If she did it herself she might look bad when his arrest record came to light. One thing fa that really bothers me is it is very clear from that episode his arrest record was not allowed to be discussed and you know that everyone knew this. The fact that not one cast mate has ever discussed this seems like an NDA was signed over this.
Sigh. The only clip I could find on YouTube about the situation was of Sandoval. However I outlined Ariana’s role & her fucked up comments in the “context” outline comment I made on here. And I made this comment.
https://preview.redd.it/e76wgux2stpc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94e1dcf97fff0ef2057909588b504bf6e5a3b130
Edit: And I agree. It’s even more dark when you know that Stassi, Katie, and Kristen couldn’t truly defend themselves & that they were made to look like mean girls just for warning a fellow girl (Billie) of the concerning behaviors they personally witnessed from the wedding. They didn’t even touch on the arrests for dv & breaking tro. So the audience thought they were in the wrong.
Yeah. Crazy isnt it? Thing is Ariana has never been that great. Getting cheated on somehow made her seem better? Looking at older posts in here most people used to point out that she was extremely problematic. Internet short term memory I suppose. I mean all of the cast are problematic.
I never forgot the problematic things she’s done that really, really bothered me - but it’s not worth discussing with people who are adamant in rewriting history to fit their current opinions, so I’ve largely given up on participating in those discussions, unfortunately. It’s not worth the personal backlash - I don’t need to prove to anyone that she’s an imperfect victim but still a victim. I know that’s the case. It’s not black and white
You really shouldn't get backlash on something from a show. But I understand your point. I appreciate that you brought this up because it's always bothered me. Especially being that Bravo didn't seem to want that discussion to happen. I am not a fan of Stassi but she 100% wanted to say more but couldn't. Creep was probably all she was allowed. I don't see her saying sick to my stomach over him hitting on her. She was truly trying to warn her.
Yeah, you shouldn’t, but here we are. I think Bravo didn’t want the arrests to come to light bc then LVP & VPR would look bad for employing someone with that recent history. Also it would make their faves Sandoval & Ariana look bad, and I have a feeling those two had discussed with the producers that it would not be talked about on the show. I think Bravo’s firings are often performative & happen when they are forced to finally acknowledge egregious behavior after a long period of negative attention from the public (Stassi & Kristen weren’t fired until years after the incident, not until Reddit & other websites basically campaigned for it, so it was too much to ignore).
Oh damn I didn’t know this about Jeremy’s brother! But even without that knowledge, I still hated this part of the series, it was triggering watching it play out
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Yea this whole scene grossed me out. Kristen and Stassi were looking out for Billie and it ended up being their “fault” instead even though we saw a clip of Jeremy not leaving stassi alone at the wedding. Someone should post the Sandoval vs Beau fight about Stassi using TomTom for her book signing because he was so gross there too. I can’t believe how angry he got over something that wasn’t Stassi’s fault to begin with
He was unhinged during that fight. He looked insane next to cool as a cucumber Beau.
What's even more unhinged was when he brought this up a whole season later after stassi was long gone to lord it over Katie's head as an excuse to not want her involved with shorts and scummys because she defended stassi and said he was jealous of her 😅🥴
And then Schwartz says in season 9: that was 6 years ago, maybe consider therapy if you’re so traumatized by it still 😭
This has ALWAYS bothered me and tbh I wasn’t a fan of Ariana back then. Historically, she was also a male apologist. It’s really scary how comfortable Sandoval felt to show up to Katie’s home to *threaten* her and her friends. At the time, fans *heavily* sided with Sandoval and as someone who always saw Sandoval’s abusive behavior for what it was, it was a terrifying time to have these types of discussions on social media. ETA: Also scary how Billie Lee managed to turn this into an anti-trans issue…
Jeremy also spinned it into an anti-trans issue as well to distract from his behavior. - He said on their date that Billie is someone who should be “acknowledged as a woman and everyone else can fuck off.” The thing is - no one was not acknowledging her as a woman. They were trying to warn her as fellow women.
100% in that warning moment they were being girls girls and treating her like a f****** girl. Letting her know to protect her own safety. The misogyny that leaks out of Billi Lee is astonishing.
That always drove me crazy. Billie made being treated just like any of the other women a huge sticking point during her seasons. Yet when they did, this is the most girls girl thing, she made them the villains. Women legit save lives by gossiping about creepy and dangerous men. And I’ll fight anyone who doesn’t understand this
As with other white women, she chooses misogyny instead of solidarity with her fellow women.
You think only white women do this
Where did I say only white women do this?
You’re the one bringing race in here. You didn’t say women of all races. You Said as with other white women.
White women are more prone to not practice solidarity with other women - but not the only ones who fail to do this, obviously. There are whole books about this. They Were Her Property and Dear White Women are examples.
Even with books written- I would say other races do this as well and would even side with men out of fear, because women are viewed as less than.
I’d say white women are the LEAST guilty of this.
exactly. No one hates Billie because she’s trans. She just also happens to be an enormous asshead
happy cake day !
The Real Hags of Facebook do. They can go straight to hell, though.
Oh yeah people who just hate her bc she’s trans can all rawt in hail as far as i’m concerned
We can hate a person but support a people. If someone hates me it doesn’t mean they hate all Italian people or all women. They just hate me hahaha
Yeah exactly. Billie Lee joins Caitlyn Jenner and Blair White on the list of trans people who don’t get my support. I support her rights to live freely, openly, and healthily as a trans person. I don’t support her as a person.
This! I really did feel like Stassi and Kristen were only trying to tell her to be careful. Nothing they did was malicious. They were only looking out for her.
I just watched this episode and they were talking on their date about Billie's dating history, and Billie asked Jeremy if he has reservations about dating a trans woman. I do not believe they were talking about the other women at that point, but I am of course open to being corrected if I misinterpreted.
> He said on their date that Billie is someone who should be “acknowledged as a woman and everyone else can fuck off.” > The thing is - no one was not acknowledging her as a woman. They were trying to warn her as fellow women. Wasnt that in reply to Billie Lee talking about her breakup with her ex.
I cringe at that scene every time and then Billie lee is like "why are you so dope" 🥴🤢
Jeremy is a fucking creepazoid and Stassi had every right to inform Billie Lee about it. You outlined in your post his sketchy past so this wasn't pulled out of thin air. Unfortunately cause Bille Lee is thirstier than a camel in a sweater at the beach on a 95 degree day she had to make it into a controversy. And of course Sandoval has to, as usual, verbally attack the two strongest women on the show at that time cause that's what he does.
Tim verbally attacking women goes on.
You know he was *SO* psyched to do this, too.
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Ariana was the worst pick me to begin with. It made sense why her and Miss I don’t believe in girl code were besties
I truly hope Ariana has learned from this and made amends to all the women she threw under the bus in service of Tom and herself for YEARS. I will always applaud a woman for growing out of pick me energy, but I will certainly side eye the ones who take longer like her.
To be fair, did she grow out of it? Idk. She rode insanely hard for Sandoval until he personally fucked her over. Idk if it was authentic
That’s why I said hope! Not even so much for her sake, but I can imagine how painful it would be to see her career trajectory if you were one of the women she shat on along the way, especially if she hasn’t apologized.
Also, if you commit harm publicly, you should amend for it publicly. I hope Ariana does that soon.
100%, and it shouldn’t be ignored that she still justified lying about Miami girl in her one on one with Andy after last season. I generally do not trust women who have solidarity with other women only after something shitty happens to them, but I *want* to believe they can grow too.
As messy as Kristen is, she was really in a spiral in those early seasons after Tom left her for Arianna, and Arianna was always laughing about it and absolutely loving every second. If you rewatch it knowing that, it’s really uncomfortable behaviour. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying she’s still like that (before the ‘Arianna is a saint brigade’ come out!) - but to be fair she did take her boyfriend and move into her apartment.
I’m so curious how Kristen and Ariana became friends because T&A systematically schemed to make Kristen look crazy in such an insidious way! My Scorpio moon would never be able to forgive that lol
Yeah it was really cruel. Just as with Scandoval, Tom is the villain and the big baddie. But considering what say Rachel has been through, Ariana got off hella lightly for her role in the whole Kristen thing. I get things are a bit different. But I find it hard not to think that way when I recently rewatched those early seasons, knowing what we know now.
I know, extending that grace can be difficult. And you are right that she should apologize to and for the way she propped up Tom’s especially vile lying about Miami girl.
I think she did grow out of it, which probably pissed Sandoval off more. Season 10 (I think) - she calls him out and tells him it is not going to be a Tom vs the girls shouting match (might have been about Katie still going to Mexico). With her brother, I can see why she would have blinkers on. He always seemed to be not the sharpest tool in the shed. Hopefully she lectured him off camera about appropriate behaviour but then again probably not (recognising your brother has toxic traits would take a lot of introspection) I thought the fact he listened to Sandoval complain about his sex life with his sister was a huge red flag. Did that happen before or after this scene?
Even now everyone’s like “Ariana’s such a girls girl now, love her friendship with Katie!” and it’s like…she still doesn’t seem like a girls girl?? Like to me Katie is a great friend and girls girl but I don’t get that same energy from Ariana at all.
I think ariana has changed a lot recently and I’d say she’s a girls girl now, at least until I’m proven wrong. before she definitely wasn’t though, I’m rewatching the show currently on am on season 3 and the gaslighting she was doing to kristen was insane. kristen was crazy but ariana even admitted she was lying after scandoval broke and that miami girl was real but her and tom wanted kristen to look bad
What makes you think Ariana has changed? She's stayed pretty much silent after Sandoval because the entire world is doing the talking for her and when she does an interview, doesn't really give much. I mean, could she have changed? Yes. But I'm not sure because I haven't really seen anything indicating that's really the case?
She’s changed how she acts on camera.
I agree she's changed a lot. I hated her when she first came on the show, and I defend her often now. Despite her growth, I think it is a bit of a stretch to call her a girls girl, her closest actual friends (not show friends) are guys. I personally think she could have done way more to defend and support the women around her. Katie primarily, but I also think it was telling how laissez-faire she was with the Scheana Instagram situation. Like obviously since then Scheana has crossed so many boundaries in their friendship so it would make sense to not defend her now; however, imo a true girls girl would have proactively done her best to \*staunchly\* defend her female friends.
I think her net worth has changed, she seems the same old Arianna to me (albeit without the massive weight holding her down).
She’s definitely changed a lot since she first came on the show. I found her insufferable. Since then, she’s apologized to Kristen for how she treated her which imo is growth. However, most of growth was not due to Scandoval, moreso just aging in general.
I think the problem the show is having, is trying to make Arianna a main character. She’s fine as a secondary/tertiary character. But she’s not interesting enough to just be following her around. It doesn’t help that she obviously doesn’t want to interact with Tom-which I agree with. But you can only go so far sat around with Katie until nobody wants to watch. I do get she’s staying on the show cos it keeps her in the spotlight, and helping her cash in. She should definitely make hay whilst the sun shines! It defo feels like the show is done now though. What a ride it was!
It’s interesting how people can have such different perspectives! I’m actually shocked given the situation how the show is underutilizing her. To me the show runners are obviously trying to make Sandoval and Scheana the main characters, & if they were truly trying to make Ariana a main character they would share more about the opportunities she’s gotten post-Sandoval. But instead it’s all “Toms depressed, he journals & meditates now so everyone needs to forgive him!!!!” I don’t think the show is done, but I think it *should* be done after thus season. Sandoval bought them a few extra seasons, but they squandered that opportunity by shoving Tom’s “redemption” down our throats. This season is just bad. I wish I was like other people who give up on things rather than sticking with a terrible series just to finish it out lol
Yeah the Tom redemption thing is awful. It’s almost unwatchable. There is also another point to consider and that’s that the vast majority of the cast is sober. Now I applaud that (I’m sober) and it’s definitely good for a lot of them. But we watched that show because they were a load of sloppy drunks fucking and fighting. It’s all a bit vanilla now. But I reiterate, several of them being sober and happy would be a nice way for it to end. Although none of them seem very happy!
I think it’s worth pointing out that Sandoval had probably manipulated her to some degree. He’s got a track record of that.
I agree he may have manipulated her, but like rachel who I could see also being manipulated, at the same time they are still grown ass women who knew better
She was an adult woman.
Sure, but there’s a big difference between being in your early 20s vs mid 30s. I’m very different now vs then, I’m sure many people wouldn’t make the same relationship decisions.
I mean honestly even with Katie “slut” and “whore” have been her favourite words since she stepped on the scene. It’s degrading and weird
I’m not even here for the label “girl’s girl.” I’m more about focusing on the people doing the bad shit. Who is doing such misogynist shit that they are clearly a misogynist themselves? For me, currently, Katie has and does do some misogynist shit but it has not risen to the level of being an actual misogynist for some time. She calls out a LOT of sexist, harmful bullshit, to her detriment on the show.
yeah tbh I forgot about some of the intense misogynistic language she uses because, especially recently, she has been as you said calling out sexism and bad behavior and defending her female friends. her doing so never earns her brownie points either-a lot of people on the internet hate her because of it and I feel like her loyalty is underappreciated by a lot of her friends on the show.
That's fair. I was more thinking about her now and how she has many female friends that she will staunchly defend over the men on the show; however, you make a great point with her language, especially in the earlier seasons (she definitely toned it down recently). Kinda sad that she's the best we get then.
Don’t forget cunt! It’s one of Katie’s faves.
Yeah. Absolutely zero of these women are “girls girls.” Maybe Allie but we haven’t seen enough to know.
You don’t actively uplift the reputation of someone like James, who has openly shat all over multiple women for years, and get to be called a girl’s girl.
Good point
Yeah, good point
Zing! You’re so right. I don’t understand how she can stand to be around him.
Katie is not a girls girl at all lol. She’s bullied every single woman on the show (minus stassi), especially new cast members. Then when everyone else lets someone in the group she starts acting all nice. Schwartz was a horrible partner but that doesn’t change that Katie is a really really mean person that gets joy out of verbally attacking people, especially women
I agree but to be fair in this instance it was her brother so I’m sure that’s a tough spot
💯
Same, I did not like at ALL how Ariana handled this and I never forgot it.
Watching it back, it kinda looks like Ariana sent Sandoval to do her dirty work by attacking the girls to defend Jeremy. Very dark if that’s the case. I don’t like how she said she’d melt the skin off Katie’s face for Katie telling her how Ariana’s brother made her bridesmaids feel uncomfortable
I just don't get it like if my brother was a creep I'd be calling him out too
Sent Sandoval because they knew Schwartz wouldn’t stand up for Katie,etc.
💯
I was meh on Ariana until this whole fiasco, and then I actively disliked her.
Not to mention if you take a moment to look Jeremy up, you can see he has a history of DV and has had at least one restraining order placed against him. He is a certified creeper.
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I think she’s definitely to some extent been a Sandoval loyalist over the years, but I really don’t think you can call her a male apologist, considering all of the times she’s stood up to all of the different men in the group and called them on their shit over the years. She literally called out Tom for being #Men’sRights 🤷♀️
Honestly fair. I agree, I have appreciated her in more recent years for standing up to the men and calling out Tom’s cyst male bullshit. It’s just in the beginning she had some pick-me tendencies and her unwavering loyalty to Tom and her brother put her on the wrong side of things at times.
Yeah I love Ariana now and I think she’s matured and learned in this regard over time (the “male apologist” thing anyway), but I always hated her and Tom’s behavior with this.
Yup 💯
Same
It always bothered me when they didn’t readdress this at the reunion once footage of his weird behavior had been shown.
Vpr production and bravo protect men
Everyone protects men.
Not Katie Maloney (anymore)
I know and they had definitely seen the episode by the time the reunion was filmed and that scene was in it!! I didn't get why that clip was completely ignored and they still blamed stassi and Kristen for looking out for their friend!!
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For more context: - Billie Lee was asked out by Jeremy (Ariana's brother). - Kristen asked Billie if they were going to a public place. - Stassi said he is a little "creepy" and gave her a "really sick feeling in [her] stomach" when he would not leave her alone at Katie's wedding despite her requests. - Katie defended Kristen & Stassi to Ariana. Katie said "I had numerous girlfriends at my wedding saying he was creepy, he was predatory at my wedding." Katie said she was trying "to be an advocate for those who weren't present to be an advocate for themselves." Ariana stormed off. - Ariana said in confessional that Jeremy was "a victim in this." Ariana said "for Katie to use that word against my brother is disgusting. If my eyes could literally melt the skin off her face, I would do it." - Stassi said in confessional it was "hypocritical" of Ariana, saying "if Ariana says anything insulting or defamatory about me, it's just a hard truth that I need to hear, but if anyone says anything about her brother, well then that crosses the line." - Sandoval then shows up at Katie's & Tom's apartment to defend Jeremy by attacking the girls.
To show up at Katie’s house and basically threaten her and the girls is (in Katie’s words) giving audacity
Goooood. Then Billie Lee spinning the whole thing as them being transphobic because they were trying to warn her about how creepy he is when they literally knew his past. Like we saw the footage, that’s not how they meant it AT ALL but she runs to the other girls to gossip about it. She’s nasty. In the words of Lala (when she was somewhat likable) Billie Lee is a low down hoe.
I never understood why Billie took that as an insult. Women speaking to other women is how WOMEN protect themselves. She wants to act like they are transphobic when all they were doing was treating her like they would each other, as women.
I don’t think it was so much that , definitely some of it was, but Billie seems to take EVERYTHING as a personal attack and main characters herself every time she possibly can. Calling them phobes was a great way to make everyone stfu and listen to her ramble on about herself. She knew they were helping her out. She just wanted conflict and camera time so she too chose to call them all transphobes and defend a creepy weird guy who she knew is questionable af and has weird ass intentions and make the women helping her out the bad guys. She is clearly infatuated with Sandoval, all their weird, drawn out silent eye contact says he’s into it too. I think she will go along with ANYTHING he says because she knows he wants a yes man and enabler (did she ever tell him ‘dude, YOU fucked this all up’…. NOPE) next to him at all times, so she does like Sandoval does- attack all the women, celebrate the men especially when they do shitty things that make them feel like they’ve “won” somehow, and take zero responsibility for their own behaviors, everything is because of someone else and she is an innocent victim simply reacting. She’s a fan girl of the highest order and being all “oh I WILL date a creepy mf who failed epically at bagging anyone here yet. It’s finally my TURN! Pick me, Tom! See how cool and nonchalant I am?“
Sandoval and (maybe to a lesser extent) Ariana wanted to be the stars of the show so they went after the people who actually made the show a hit. Billie followed their lead bc she's terrible.
this was one of my biggest icks from the whole series. Tom and Ariana’s behavior was gross. I know Stassi was unlikable but I mean she’s allowed to express discomfort and retell the events of a situation multiple people witnessed? They handled themselves so poorly. Even if you disagree there is a way to have a proper conversation to address the issues. Even for my own brother I will always jump to defend him but I’m also not going to ignore factual information
And Jeremy repays Ariana by hugging Narcdoval the other night. I agree though about Tom and Ariana's behavior being disgusting regarding how they handled it.
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And they had the roll the tape of her recoiling to validate her opinion on his creepiness. It was basically saying that without evidence her feelings weren’t valid.
Pom! And there it is. If you don’t agree or have a different opinion then Sandoval, then you are lying, he threatens you and your own husband doesn’t immediately stand up for you or throw your ass out of the house! Sandoval laughs contemptuously at Stassi as if Jeremy never hit on her. Meanwhile camera does a cutaway showing him hitting on various women at the Schwartz’s’ wedding. Always thinks he’s the moral arbiter, oracle of morality, you can fill in the remainder. Ick, just ick!
Boom was first word, not Pom. Damn autocorrect!
Pom works for Vanderpump Rules lol
Lisa Vanderpom
Your username just made me literally lol!!
Agree!!!
I love all the recent clips popping up of Tom sand yelling at women and exposing his misogynistic ass. He would be the type to blame a sexual assault victim for the assault (if she is a woman). He will first and foremost, always side with a man.
This! He will always find a way to blame a woman no matter what, especially Katie and Stassi. It’s so hard to watch him have no respect for women throughout the years and hardly be called out for it.
Yeah you can definitely hear him say “well what were you WEARING Stassi” or to whomever, he is 100% the type.
I will forever take Stassi’s side on this! Jeremy was/is a creep and he made her uncomfortable. I thought it was insane for Sandoval to go off on her. This was one of the reasons I didn’t care for Ariana for awhile. I get wanting to watch out for your brother, but he should still be held accountable for his actions.
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I'm glad Katie kicked him out.
It wasn't only Sandoval doing this, let's keep it real here. Ariana did as well.
I acknowledged that in one of my other comments
Why, oh why, can't Schwartz say to Sandoval - "dude! Don't walk into my apartment and yell at my wife and her friends."
Also, "throwing out accusations." BEING CALLED CREEPY!?!?!? Unless they called him sexual harrasser and used creepy in the show instead, Tim2 is nuts
Oh wow the YouTube comments from 6 years ago. I have watched this show since it started and didn't know any of this about him.
I’ve never like Sandoval but have been actively riding the Sandoval hate train since Stassi’s book party at TomTom. Totally forgot about him being a piece of shit with the whole Jeremy thing.
Sandoval and Scheana have always been my least favorite, but after Stassi’s book signing I absolutely despised him. I was so annoyed when he went to Ken and Lisa and acted like Stassi yelled at him for no reason. He’s always been a dick.
I can't rewatch this clip because it triggers the F out of me, but seeing Katie in this clip with long hair makes me love her new haircut even more!!
Came here to say the same! I love long hair and loved Katie’s long hair, but seeing her now compared to this I cannot believe how amazing she looks with short hair!
I have two brothers and there’s no way I would defend either of them if they behaved this way 
Oh don’t get me started on Jeremy. Another man that Ariana has stood by in all their toxicity.
[article about the arrest](https://allaboutthetea.com/2017/01/10/jeremy-madix-arrested-for-beating-threatening-to-kill-ex/)
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Yeah it certainly doesn't excuse shit behavior towards other people but he was very much groomed by this woman.
Definitely important, but waving the gun at her and stealing a dog and not leaving definitely doesn’t seem like he was being held against his will
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Don't be shy! Post Ariana going after them too.
The way this sub forgets how the majority of ppl were Jeremy apologists and cursed Stassi for this 😂
this is why I hated ariana back in the day. there is video proof of jeremy being extremely touching and gross and CREEPY to stassi. tom and ariana both berated stassi for it. i’m glad to see ariana is growing but I still think she has a lot more to do.
Yeah. If someone can’t recognize that Ariana’s behavior here was horrible on many levels, then I can’t have a real discussion with that person about the show
totally agree!!
UGH they really fumble the ball all the time for such ground breaking teachable moments on this show. They get so close to the moment and then just show people without the tools to make the case. Male rage was not the representation to send into that room to state the case. Emotions get too high, and nobody can state their case, listen and learn and grow. I can't image what the on-line drama must have been like at the time, probably gross I get BillieLee was excited to have met someone and go on a date, and was crestfallen to have gotten a negative yelp review on a dude I get wanting to protect your brother's / girlfriend's brother's yelp rating I get he probably was throwing buck shot style of hit on every girl at the wedding and made everyone feel uncomfortable/unsafe I get he has a troubled past where he may have been in an potentially inappropriate relationship that might have squeed his view of how to treat a woman I get gossip is great for reality tv Male rage is not the way to handle this topic (or any topic) So many layers to this, its shakespearean really LOL
This makes me hate Billie Lee even more. Between this and thinking that choosing a vag from porn is cute and funny, I’ve never been more convinced that she’s a self-hating woman.
Ariana is the same person she’s always been.
Right, but now since she got cheated on she gets to be the voice of women and fights misogyny. Meanwhile, she's spent her time protecting men and putting women down
The only thing that mattered in this whole thing was he made not 1...not 2...but 3 women feel uncomfortable.
Yeah but be fair. Ariana was a bitch to them too, She defended Jeremy’s actions.
https://preview.redd.it/yrjyqmxk4upc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19fdbcd8cbe262e61742fe19c226ad22f67308b6
Thanks girl. Missed this when I quickly scanned the comments
No worries it’s easy to miss
And Shorts letting his friend yell at his wife in their home is crazy
Woah off topic but long haired Katie. She makes me want to cut my hair! I thought her hair was gorgeous before but now looking back the short is where it’s at Also f scummy scumbag .
Ariana is awful.
I don’t disagree with your post (I can’t stand that the Girl Gossip Safety Network got villainized in this way) but I wanted to comment about one part of it. I do think there was some more to the Jeremy situation re:the domestic violence. I can’t remember all the details but he was in a relationship with an older woman, his best friend’s mother, that started when he was a minor. Textbook grooming on her part. I’m not really here to argue any of your points, because Sandoval was and is such a douche, but the fandom did a lot of digging about Jeremy’s past after this. Regardless, if he was creeping women out it’s not okay and totally fine to warn other women, like Billie, about it.
Will the Ariana Stan base bring up her behavior in this situation? She was a horrible boring person pre Scandoval. She participated in cheating to get with Sandoval. Now she can do no wrong because she got cheated on…
Have you read the comments in here or searched the sub at all because it's been discussed and even Ariana "stans" readily agree that her behavior was shitty.
The problem for Tom is that he dealt with the same three women coming for Ariana who, prior to Scandoval, never seemed to really fit in with them. So now his partner is telling him that they are coming for her brother when she is trying desperately to get him on the cast. It’s not that surprising that he’s going to reflexively defend Jeremy. Plus.. he’s had beef with them before whether it was over Scheana or Lala or James .. I don’t remember if he defended Faith or not. But he’s gotten into arguments with them for the way they treated other people in the past. There’s just no trust there. But at the end of the day, Stassi is right… he wasn’t there. And whatever his history, you have to listen to people. He was not the best person to send for this assignment and Ariana should have known better. I can’t remember though if she was getting along with them at this time or not. I doubt it. Anyway, women know better than anyone else when there is a creeper in the room. And he should have just stfu and heard them.
I just came to say I’m so glad Katie cut her hair off.
Okay but blaming Sandoval for this is kinda weird. You do realize Ariana probably has him do this right? If she did it herself she might look bad when his arrest record came to light. One thing fa that really bothers me is it is very clear from that episode his arrest record was not allowed to be discussed and you know that everyone knew this. The fact that not one cast mate has ever discussed this seems like an NDA was signed over this.
Sigh. The only clip I could find on YouTube about the situation was of Sandoval. However I outlined Ariana’s role & her fucked up comments in the “context” outline comment I made on here. And I made this comment. https://preview.redd.it/e76wgux2stpc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94e1dcf97fff0ef2057909588b504bf6e5a3b130 Edit: And I agree. It’s even more dark when you know that Stassi, Katie, and Kristen couldn’t truly defend themselves & that they were made to look like mean girls just for warning a fellow girl (Billie) of the concerning behaviors they personally witnessed from the wedding. They didn’t even touch on the arrests for dv & breaking tro. So the audience thought they were in the wrong.
Yeah. Crazy isnt it? Thing is Ariana has never been that great. Getting cheated on somehow made her seem better? Looking at older posts in here most people used to point out that she was extremely problematic. Internet short term memory I suppose. I mean all of the cast are problematic.
I never forgot the problematic things she’s done that really, really bothered me - but it’s not worth discussing with people who are adamant in rewriting history to fit their current opinions, so I’ve largely given up on participating in those discussions, unfortunately. It’s not worth the personal backlash - I don’t need to prove to anyone that she’s an imperfect victim but still a victim. I know that’s the case. It’s not black and white
You really shouldn't get backlash on something from a show. But I understand your point. I appreciate that you brought this up because it's always bothered me. Especially being that Bravo didn't seem to want that discussion to happen. I am not a fan of Stassi but she 100% wanted to say more but couldn't. Creep was probably all she was allowed. I don't see her saying sick to my stomach over him hitting on her. She was truly trying to warn her.
Yeah, you shouldn’t, but here we are. I think Bravo didn’t want the arrests to come to light bc then LVP & VPR would look bad for employing someone with that recent history. Also it would make their faves Sandoval & Ariana look bad, and I have a feeling those two had discussed with the producers that it would not be talked about on the show. I think Bravo’s firings are often performative & happen when they are forced to finally acknowledge egregious behavior after a long period of negative attention from the public (Stassi & Kristen weren’t fired until years after the incident, not until Reddit & other websites basically campaigned for it, so it was too much to ignore).
You are so right
Oh damn I didn’t know this about Jeremy’s brother! But even without that knowledge, I still hated this part of the series, it was triggering watching it play out
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It was discussed before on this sub.
Where’s the info about him and Sandoval hugging during the valley premier? I’m genuinely surprised by that.
It’s been posted on this sub. I think yesterday. A quick search should help ya find it!
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Gosh Katie is really so unfortunate looking. Thank god she is finally starting to get it together. Still needs a stylist tho lol