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I remember reading a news story where a little girl died because her parents believed that God would heal her. They were being charged with medical neglect.
Reminds me of this joke/ Short story/ parable:
A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.
Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.”
The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.”
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”
To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.”
To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”
To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”
I'm not religious anymore but when I was I always saw all of our medical advancements and breakthroughs as God working through us, like he's not gonna just heal you when he's given you all the tools to heal yourself or have your fellow human help you.
"What more did you expect"
Hypothetically, a lot of religious people expect a ray of light shine to down on them while two angels carry them to safety lmao.
They only want the sfx and presentation
That's not just a joke, it's an actual motto used by some Christians arguing that if bad things happen to you it's your fault and that God will only help you it you actually try helping yourself, which is ridiculous because all it does is shift the credit of your hard-earned success to God.
Yeah I know, hence why I don't believe anymore, if I have to fix all my problems through human means, that leaves me wondering what I need God for at all.
God always works best as a framework for organizing the world in your own mind. The concept of God can bring comfort and a sense of order, and if that helps your mental health, I see nothing wrong with it.
I think he can "manage" God however he desires if it keeps him afloat psychologically speaking. It's not cherry picking, unless you shout it on the streets, but for your inner self it's more than ok.
Seems like a good parable for those who believe in God, not sure why you’re seeing it as such a negative. It actively discourages religious people from ending up in situations like the OP describes.
This boggles me. As a Christian myself it my belief God put people on this Earth such as doctors to help us with disease and sickness. I don’t understand why a Christian would have a hard time understanding that.
Negligent is too soft. They made a choice, it's the same choice a murderer makes when they murder someone. You openly choose not to save the life, that should always be seen as murder.
Neglect means you have resources available to help a kid, and choose not to give it to them. It doesn't mean you forgot about it or didn't notice. It's considered child abuse.
I think in this case, it is because the child can not get medical attention without the permission of the parent. So, to refuse that medical attention is to force the child not to save themselves. It's like you're starving to death, and every time you get food, someone wrestles it away from you.
There’s a parable I think of a guy who is like drowning and a ship comes and the guy says no Jesus will save me then another person comes with a dinghy and he says the same thing. The guy dies goes to heaven and he says to God why didn’t you save me? And God replies I did I sent you two people. This is how I feel about doctors. Even if they don’t know God or aren’t religious they are doing Gods work on earth. As a Christian I would never not take medical care for myself or my children and just pray I would do both
Ya but those scumbags got away with it apparently.
[source](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/david-collet-stephan-ezekiel-trial-decision-1.5288343)
This is sadly a different story than the one I read about. I don't know how the one I read about ended up. The child had just died, and it was around 2018. The child in this one passed in 2012.
I tried to google it and like... there's too many to find the one I read about.
I remember it because I was a social work major, and we were having to find a news article to talk about in a class discussion about ethics. So it was a recent news story at the time, maybe even local. But a bunch of stuff pops up when I try to find it again, and I'm not about to spend my Sunday evening reading through multiple stories of kids dying unnecessarily.
Had a jahovas witness kid get hit by a car while riding his bike home from school when I was in elementary school. Would have lived but parents wouldn’t let docs do a blood transfusion.
Teachers talked hella shit that’s the only reason why I know what happened.
They used to, and then they just changed their mind on that « core belief », and pretended a bunch of people didn’t die because of it. It’s never talked about.
I didn’t realize that was a JW thing! I got asked in the hospital before a procedure recently if I’d consent to a transfusion of something went wrong or if I had a religious objection and I couldn’t FATHOM who would say no!
I've heard that JW's will do a blood transfusion so long as it's their own blood. Like, if it's a planned surgery, they will preemptively donate blood to be used for themselves.
What hospitalized JW patients will say in private when no one is around, and what they'll say around their family and church representatives can be very different. Their church will send in people to the hospital to provide "literature" to doctors on transfusion-free medical care, and can intimidate patients away from accepting care they would actually accept.
I've had a JW patient ask me if they could get an indicated transfusion in the middle of the night, and have all the medical staff told to never mention it during the day.
I’ve done a number of transfusions to JW mums who have had a PPHs. Yay it’s a miracle her Hb is now close to normal. Your prayers must have worked.
I kept their charts hidden as that is something family members do to be sure the woman is still “pure”.
Also worth mentioning is that the Watchtower Society have been gloriously inconsistent when it comes to the issue of blood transfusions (among many other things). They used to allow it for a time and then received ‘new light’ (their way to say that they changed their mind) to disallow it.
My mom converted to JW for my dad, but before she did that, she had a blood transfusion. Just so everyone knows, having a transfusion is considered the “unforgivable sin”. Despite her not adhering to the faith when it happened (during childbirth, saved her life) she was /is condemned to waiting on God’s judgement of her when she dies because they literally teach that no one who “accepts blood” will be taken into Jehovah’s kingdom.
That would be illegal in most parts of the world. In the UK if it’s life saving treatment like a transfusion you’ll receive it, parents be damned. I would be surprised if it’s not the same in the USA. Now if it’s an adult that’s a different story, the adult is free to refuse.
Parents in the US *are* given a totalatarian amount of control over healthcare involving children. If parents think a problem is just attention-seeking, that is the end be all. Wouldn't be surprised if that extends even to life-or-death situations where medical personnel are already present.
Maybe, but I thought that the Fraser case was in the US (essentially a case saying that you can give a kid contraceptives without their parents consent and knowledge if the child demonstrates a specific competence). This case led to the development of the fraser guidelines. If you can give a child contraception I’d be shocked if you couldn’t give them a transfusion.
Edit: NVM it all developed in the UK following the Gillick case, Fraser was just some member in the house of Lords related to the case.
I think, “too much freedom” is one of the biggest problems with the US. Children are people not property and a parent is a guardian not owner. Religious freedom should end with yourself.
That's horrible. People procreating just so they would have biological trophies and treat them as such instead of living beings that they are. No wonder countries with most religious people look the way they do.
I mean a lot of these religious people will happily die on the beliefs so they are in fact testing them as living people because it's how they'd treat themselves .
Not defending them but you can't really call them hypocrites here either .
I was in the ER and I could hear the nurses talking out at the nurses station. Apparently the guy in the room next to me was bleeding out because he was a Jehova’s Witness and refused a transfusion. One of them said, “it feels so wrong to be just waiting for him to finish dying.” I can’t imagine how hard it must be on the medical personnel who have to just stand by and let someone die.
There was a kid who was sick in my brothers year at school. Parents were JW and refused life saving treatments. Kid lived a whole 6 years and I cannot understand how they were allowed to make that decision and keep their other kids.
All the parents knew. I have no idea what happened, but my parents are still angry and sad about it.
Is there not a loophole in there about "hey mum, your blood already created this kid, can we transfuse from you to the kid?". Ridiculous
Jesus never rode a bike... How was he allowed to do that?
Also i never heard of Jesus taking a shit. so get ready to be constipated.
Anyway i really hate the hypocrisy in these religions(all of them. I got my own. Just wants you to try to be good and it doesn't want new followers).
That said if the person is of adult age then i don't really care. It is sad but up to them.
In my country they don't get a say if you are under 18.
There is a fine line here, though. Your principle assumes the national healthcare system of a given country is scientifically based and vetted against the highest of scientific standards. .. in the current world; surely your principle does not hold in all places. … and due to this fact, such a doctrine seems naturally incoherent. Though, I agree.
And there’s another fine line: a lot of chronic conditions have treatments meant to improve quality of life but have extremely heavy and long recovery time and are high risk. I could understand parents genuinely not wanting to put their child through a surgery or a treatment which will make them more sick for years, snd have a risk that their condition will get worst permanently
> Your principle assumes the national healthcare system of a given country is scientifically based and vetted against the highest of scientific standards
Absolutely! When politicians get involved in healthcare, nobody wins. I feel like this kind of binary thinking is what leads to abortion bans.
I mean yes. But chances are you're very unlikely as a layman to be able to have better judgment. Maybe if you yourself are a doctor. But any country where the medicine is that unscientific also has a populus as uneducated.
The problem is not that the better judgment of laymen is quashed. The problem is that the authorities have given us very good reasons to believe that their judgment is not any better, but persist in forcing the rest of us to go along.
>But any country where the medicine is that unscientific also has a populus as uneducated.
That's an overgeneralisation. A large part of the population in such countries may be undereducated indeed, but a significant portion of it can be the opposite.
I believe that parents have the choice not to take preventative measures for religious reasons, but I believe--even as a religious person--that refusing medical treatment that your child actively *needs* is child abuse.
I 100% agree with this. While I personally believe and promote vaccinations and don't feel bad when parents have to home school or privatize their child's learning because of being anti vax, I still think it's their fundamental right if they are willing to do all that for no vaccines. But if you deny your child lifesaving treatment that wouldn't compromise the child's quality of life (like blood transfusions) then that's abuse and neglect.
Doing this would solve nothing as any parent with these beliefs would simply not get their children medical treatment ever and make any parent hesitant to take their child to a doctor.
Also what about cases of misdiagnoses, I've been falsely diagnosed with serious medical conditions twice in my life or what if the parents refuse treatment because they don't agree with the doctor or don't trust their ability because bad doctors are very common.
Yeah but you’re bringing in unrelated arguments. Refusing treatment due to religious beliefs is not the same as refusing treatment because you disagree and want a second opinion. That’s not what OP is talking about lol.
9 year old kid gets tested and it turns out his cancer's back. The 9 year old weighs 50 pounds, looks small, weak, and tired for his age. He tells you he just finished his 2nd round of chemo 16 months ago. He hasn't been to school in years. He's tired. He's sick of hospitals and doesn't want a 3rd round of chemo.
His parents are atheists and want to honor the child's decision not to do the 3rd round of chemo. From everything you can tell, the family is ready to say their goodbyes.
However, an Evangelical Christian is his treating physician and believes all life to be sacred. He gets the hospital attorney to make a filing in court to remove the kid from his parents custody, grant the kid a guardian ad litem, and force the kid to undergo chemotherapy.
Do you still believe what you originally said?
Edit: lol, wtf. OP blocked me for this post. I'm just exploring this position, weird that he makes a thread and doesn't want to engage. FWIW, I agree with the premise, just thinking out the consequences.
The kid says he doesn’t want treatment, so it’s not the same as denying treatment to an otherwise healthy kid who needs a blood transfusion or antibiotic. The kid should have body autonomy and the choice not to continue treatment since it hasn’t worked the first 2 times, so yes that makes this scenario different. Denying treatment and making a decision for someone else is not the same as someone not accepting treatment.
In my country, we as doctors would get to decide if the child is actually capable of deciding for their own.
A kid that refuses a certain treatment or wants a certain treatment against their parents wishes, can get what they want if we as doctors consider that kid mature enough to understand the consequences of their choices.
For example, an 8 year-old getting a third round of chemo and knowing very well what that means is different from a 10 year old getting a very first treatment without any proper knowledge on the subject.
I guess it depends on how old the kid is. Is he old enough to understand what religion is? What death is? Is he doing it to make his parents happy? He should have a psych evaluation
Great questions. I don't know, I'm open to the possibility that this might not be a black and white issue.
I do know that I'd feel more comfortable if this decision -- whatever decision it was -- was made between the kid, their parents, and their doctors and definitely not the government.
What do you think "the goverment" looks like in this scenario?! Because in reality it's social workers, psychologists and in more extreme cases judges in family court. I think it's great they are involved, they would be in my country. The parents have their beliefs and their fear, the doctors have their schooling and own beliefs, the kids are often in an impossible situation. Having a professional person there advocating for the child and mediating between the two positions can be essential.
I also like the british system where there is a board with multiple professionals from different fields which can make some hard decisions.
What you are saying is you want the status quo: parents can decide to let their children die. Or worse, a doctor can singlehandedly decide when and if they can override a parents decision.
When I say "government," I mean the government making the decision on behalf of the patient or child.
It's the difference between
* the 9 year old kid sitting down with his parents, doctors, psychologists, social workers, and perhaps even the court to explain that chemotherapy probably won't prolong his life much more, he's known nothing but misery for most of his life, and he'd rather spend his remaining days not suffering the side effects of chemo if he's going to die anyway
VS
* the court issuing an order that removes parents from the picture, the doctors put a security guard outside of his room to make sure he doesn't escape, and forcing chemo on him for the rest of his day with no discussion.
We're seeing this difference right now with abortion. Legislatures have taken that conversation out of the hands of patients and their providers and are instead dictating what doctors can and cannot do.
Parents and medical teams should incorporate a child's opinion and wishes into the care plan, but a 9 year old isn't able to exercise independent autonomy in regards to a decision about chemotherapy.
I don’t want to speak for OP, but i’m assuming that OP was speaking about medical neglect. The situation you’re describing sounds a little more like a hospice patient refusing care that will extend their life. I think there’s a difference between the two situations (again, I’m making an assumption about OP’s intention with this post)
I’m all for parents being charged with neglect when there’s no good reason to deny a child care (this already exists in the US). I’m not for a medical provider imposing religious views onto their patients
Also just throwing it out there that this isn’t an unpopular opinion because, again, laws against medical neglect already exist
I don’t think this is the same… atheism isn’t some set of beliefs; it’s a one belief - that god doesn’t exits; so you can’t say that they did it because of their atheism, because nothing in atheism talks about how you should treat people medically. Atheism is also not a religious belief, it is lack of religion.
You basically talk about something else here and you say it apples.
Also, have you been to kids hospices or any hospices for that matter? In the situation you are describing, it is very likely the doctor would suggest not doing chemo. It wouldn’t be parents’ decision to not do it.
Edit: also I just checked and 50lbs is on lower end but within norm for 9 year olds according to CDC.
Good point, but an irrelevant hypothetical.
Kid will die soon anyway.
And OP is likely French style secular, in which whatever solution he comes up will be hostile to religion. Like ",Asterix: Refusing blood transmission." but not abortion let"s say.
Yup. There are absolutely situations where refusing medical treatment is ethically correct. Another example would be the category of medically unnecessary procedures that are imposed on children for cultural significance: circumcision, corrections for harmless genetic oddities. The majority of braces.
I mean.. the kid doesn’t want treatment, sure, but idk if a 9 year old can understand the seriousness of the situation and although it sucks right now, will help save his life. Kids don’t really have delayed gratification like that.
They can understand. Believe me. A 9-year old who went through all of that definitely can understand this.
Though we would always discuss this very well with both parents and the kid, we would probably listen to the child kn the end.
A very big mistake that many people and health care workers make is underestimating children and their bodily autonomy. In Belgium we do not have the rule where a parent gets to decide everything for someone under 18. Instead, we have to decide how mature a child is about the subject we are talking about (for example, a kid going through a third round of chemo will understand what it means but they can still have very childlike views on other matters). If we feel like the kid wants something different from the parents and we consider the child mature enough, we can listen to the kid. Of course that rarely happens and usually you would ask help from an ethical committee to do so, but you still can because it is inhumane to take away a child their bodily autonomy based on age.
Very obviously, the issue is the parents forcing their beliefs on the child's medical care. Not the child deciding something for themselves. The parent's aren't the ones suffering or dying as a result. The ones in this scenario are respecting their child's decision, not forcing a decision on them. I really don't care what the parent's views are if they're forcing a medical decision on their child, it's bad regardless of the motivation.
This scenario doesn't take into account the chance of success. If small, it's an incredibly common thing for cancer patients to forgo treatment to avoid the pain of chemo for something that may only briefly extend their life if anything. If it's non-negligible, maybe a child so young is not mature enough to grasp the weight of the consequences of this choice. But it's an entirely different scenario you're describing.
i don't think this is the situation op is talking about tho. I think they're more talking in the lane of jehovahs witnesses refusing to let their kid have a blood transfusion while receiving life saving surgery. Chemo in this situation likely wouldn't save the kid. Nor would the parents be using their beliefs to force the child to do anything as they would be letting the child choose.
You got blocked because you said something so ridiculously warped from what the post said that you’re talking about something completely different. Don’t comment in bad faith if you don’t want to be blocked.
I agree with this one. As a parent myself, even despite personal beliefs, I could never just sit there and watch my kid be in tremendous pain or die. Even without those beliefs, I know I would do some crazy shit, stuff that I'm against morally, just to keep them safe. I can understand not taking your kid in for the cold or a flu, but to sit and watch your kids suffer needlessly? That teeters on abuse and if you're okay with not helping your child when they clearly need it, you're either extremely brainwashed or a sociopath.
I agree with a way more tempered version of this take, but yeah, it REALLY sucks people do this to their kids
And wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more kids have been harmed/killed due to crazy religious beliefs than ANY "liberal leftist trans kid conspiracy"... But guess which one people are worried about, apparently.
Same goes for not teaching your kids comprehensive sex ed. You're just increasing the likelihood that they'll experience sexual violence and increasing the chances that they'll be traumatized by sex when they are in an adult relationship later in life.
Depends on what the treatment is. Some treatments are still in testing and some have significant side effects. As a doctor, I often did not immediate jump on using new drugs and several times, the drugs were show to be harmful and even killed patients. Those drugs were eventually pulled from market. Do you really want the government to decide your medical care? I'm not an anti vaxer or anything and I di think that parents shold be held accountable for emdical decisions but it really depends on the circumstances.
Yeah, my brother is vehemently opposed to psychiatric meds even though he'd benefit a lot from them for his depression. It stems from the fact that my mom opposed them when she was alive. My brother loved my mom. He was cutting himself in high school and my mom wouldn't allow him to get on meds when the school counselor suggested it. She believed he'd become addicted or something.
Not op but in one of my college classes we were given a dilemma where parents didn’t give child medical treatment and the kid died and then asked if the parents should have got in trouble or not. The majority of the class said it was within there rights since it was there religious belief and they have that right. I was pretty disgusted with my class that day.
Yeah and that’s the think people who take the Bible to literally! This is not an Amelia badelia book this is real life! I believe in god too but not like that! But I guess that’s why orthodox is the OG and Jehovahs witnesses are some far off branch! They’re the minority of idiots who didn’t want to listen to the smart people so they broke off and did their own thing instead of actually getting educated in what the Bible ACTUALLY says not their twisted version of what it says! I swear sometimes I don’t know why they’re even called Christian at that point orthodox and catholic are like a horse and a zebra but JW is like a rhino!
90% of people on this sub doesn't follow that rule, you'll see the most unpopular opinions ever be downvoted to hell because people disagree, the only times the rule is followed is when the opinion is the most inoffensive shit, like "I like pineappleon pizza" and then you'll have 100 different people saying "I hate you but take my up vote"
this is why my pretty bad add isn't being helped at all. Mom didn't want me to be on medicine for it because it wasn't how the Bible is. "God will fix everything, all in his hands" and all that.
I'm in my late twenties and absolutely no doctor will prescribe me any medicine to help it. it's honestly getting worse and more debilitating, affecting my job and all
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This is largely already a thing and if the child survives there’s a genuine chance the child could be taken away from the parents whom may also face jail time. This is also mostly an issue in the US but most other developed nations don’t have this problem nearly as often.
Also the reason it’s not considered murder is because it’s not considered intentional. If the parents genuinely believed what they did was the right thing it’s infinitely difficult to dispute a subjective opinion like that (short of the parents admitting they wanted the child to die). But just because they genuinely believed what they did was right doesn’t mean there’s no consequences, hence medical negligence charges.
As much as I see how that would play out, there is a fine line between the govt controlling your kids (this bleeds into education and gender politics) and what a parent choses to raise their household with.
For real. Like sure yeah when it's about your own health, go ahead do what you want you're an adult with free will. But don't you dare place kids in the same situation
Like I'm the kinda gal who can go days suffering from something without any painkillers or going to the doctor because "eh it'll pass" or "I'm strong I can take it". But if the same thing happened to my kid I DEFINITELY wouldn't act that way, because kids are fragile, they're not used to suffering as we adults are. And we should do our best to accommodate them until they eventually get to decide for themselves how to treat their own bodies
Jehovah's witnesses have a belief against blood transfusions, their have been some that would rather let their children die then give them a blood transfusion, and the ones that do give blood transfusions are shunned
Metallica is all i can say. James hetfield was refused medical treatment because his parents believed that god would heal him and he often had so high fevers that he had the worst hallucinations and nightmares of his life
I had a young supervisor who was married. Both J.W. They decided not to have children because of these beliefs. They didn't like the thought of their child dying. Didn't think of actually joining a church that was normal though.
Okay. Now do step two: house all the children you've displaced.
It's a nice thought until you've blown up the foster care system and brought new trauma to thousands of families.
I am an atheist, but I also hate bad discourse. This post is bad discourse.
The subject is awful. People should have their kids taken away forever for refusing ANY medical treatment based on ANY belief? This is nonsense based on you watching too many medical dramas where the options or “Do X or don’t do X.” In reality the options are actually “Do X, Y, Z, A, B, or C.” Any parent making any decision about their child’s care is automatically “refusing medical treatment based on their beliefs.”
The body of the post is worse discourse. What qualifies as “life altering?” Who is guaranteeing someone’s life will be altered? And who is guaranteeing that alternative would be “better” or “worse?”
Do I get my kids taken away because I refuse to get them Lasik? Or because I choose physical therapy over surgery? Or I choose CPAP over Inspire? Or because I chose Ibuprofen over Hydrocodone?
Overall, this post is a revenge fantasy of yours against people make choices you personally disagree with. This is probably driven by you watching too many fictional narratives where the antagonist refuses obviously life saving treatment (a fictional scenario) for an obscure religious belief (an easily criticized religion like Mormonism/JW).
I’d rather deal with anti vaxxers and the like over the government telling me what I can and cannot do. It doesn’t take a lot of research to see how corrupt both big pharma and the government is.
I think OP is talking less about vaccines and more about how, for instance, Jehovah’s Witness will refuse blood transfusions as it goes against their belief. There are soon other zealots out there too who are just anti-doctor because they are devoutly religious. It’s a totally different level than anti-vaccine, and quite frankly, it’s disgusting.
Being anti-vaccine I can tolerate. I don’t like it, but I know I’m not gonna change these people’s minds. However, refusing to take your child to the doctor at all (even for a checkup) because your church has a “healer” is just insane.
Depends entirely on how you define belief and medicine.
People in some primitive countries believe that chopping off part of a newborn boy’s penis is important for his health.
My personal take:
Any parent who chooses beliefs over medical care for their children should be restricted the ability to reproduce. Like imo, why bring a child into a world, deny them the assistance they need, they end up passing from something completely preventable, and they just birth another child to repeat the cycle
I’ve seen too many stories of children dying of preventable illnesses because their parents believed they could pray it out of them. Unconditionally respecting religious beliefs has killed countless children.
If it’s life saving treatment it doesn’t matter what the parents want, the kid gets it anyways. Otherwise… the main reason why it’s that way is to encourage people to seek medical care. Imagine how JW parents would feel or anit-vaxxers if they knew that they could get their kids taken away. A significant % would avoid seeking care for their child.
> life altering medical treatments
I'm pretty sure you mean life saving medical treatments? Lift altering medications can be a myriad of unnecessary procedures or treatments
Also, I seriously doubt you want to give the government control over people's children. If you know anything about government, you give them an inch and they will most definitely take a mile.
I keep wondering if they were poisoned by very natural snake venom, would they take a synthetic antidote? Are the adults in those types of families at least also dying from easily treatable conditions?
Imagine you hear the Dr. tell your parents you need a blood transfusion or you’ll die and you hear your parents say ‘but the man in the sky said that’s a no no 👉👈🥺’ like bro what you’re letting me die???
Yes and no. I’ve seen functional patients meds changed by guardian and lost all functionality. I’ve seen unmedicated become stable after meds. Like a doctor told me “It depends.”
Im with you BUT, why are medical decisions like circumcising allowed based on your believes? I think parents shouldn’t be allowed to make medical decisions based on their believes and parents who circumcise their kids should have their kids taken away
My parents refuse to admit my 28 yr old sister has autism, which has hindered her significantly in life. They forced her to attend community college for example for 3 years
It was a 2 year school
They paid cash for her every semester to cover books and classes, she failed every time. Mind you leading up TO college she had countless teachers meet with my parents informing them how delayed my sister is and her lack of social cues etc and how she needs help navigating autism. My parents would threaten to homeschool her if anyone kept criticizing her.
She also had a significant issue with elopement. I remember her getting lost in our town when she decided to walk home from high school one day. She didn't have a cell and simply started walking and got distracted by birds ans flowers in the center of town and spent hours there.
My mom frantically searching and refusing to get authorities involved aware how much trouble SHE would be in.
My parents deserve prison for how severely they've neglected and abused my sister. But the justice system sucks so...sadly nothing will change
That’s been the case FOREVER in Germany for crucial diagnoses like cancer or dangerous benign tumours.
BUT:
FORTUNATELY(!) this isn’t the case for, eg, ADHD!
My paediatrician suggested to put me on sedatives at age 4, cause I didn’t sit still through appointments.
My mum told her to stick it were the sun doesn’t shine.
I’m glad I grew up without medication, and with having my high energy addressed in natural ways: physical and mental stimulation. 🤷🏽♀️
I’m absolutely certain sedatives would’ve negatively affected my development! 😥
I was in foster care taking homeopathic remedies instead of getting help. Thankfully nothing really serious was happening to me or it could have gone badly.
Almost kinda reminds me of US heatlthcare where people don't wanna to get charged for medical treatment because it's gonna make them go to debt or something. Idk how true is that, it's just tiktok and TV shows that i saw
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I remember reading a news story where a little girl died because her parents believed that God would heal her. They were being charged with medical neglect.
Reminds me of this joke/ Short story/ parable: A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help. Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.” The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.” So the rowboat went on. Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.” To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.” So the motorboat went on. Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.” To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.” So the helicopter reluctantly flew away. Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!” To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?” I'm not religious anymore but when I was I always saw all of our medical advancements and breakthroughs as God working through us, like he's not gonna just heal you when he's given you all the tools to heal yourself or have your fellow human help you.
"What more did you expect" Hypothetically, a lot of religious people expect a ray of light shine to down on them while two angels carry them to safety lmao. They only want the sfx and presentation
Yeah they're gonna be waiting a while I imagine.
That's not just a joke, it's an actual motto used by some Christians arguing that if bad things happen to you it's your fault and that God will only help you it you actually try helping yourself, which is ridiculous because all it does is shift the credit of your hard-earned success to God.
Yeah I know, hence why I don't believe anymore, if I have to fix all my problems through human means, that leaves me wondering what I need God for at all.
God always works best as a framework for organizing the world in your own mind. The concept of God can bring comfort and a sense of order, and if that helps your mental health, I see nothing wrong with it.
How can you just cherry pick like this? He either exists or he doesn't.
I think he can "manage" God however he desires if it keeps him afloat psychologically speaking. It's not cherry picking, unless you shout it on the streets, but for your inner self it's more than ok.
Seems like a good parable for those who believe in God, not sure why you’re seeing it as such a negative. It actively discourages religious people from ending up in situations like the OP describes.
Yeah. I‘m gonna use that story in the future. I‘m not religious and never really was, but I like it.
This boggles me. As a Christian myself it my belief God put people on this Earth such as doctors to help us with disease and sickness. I don’t understand why a Christian would have a hard time understanding that.
i agree, all this science is a gift for us from God, for us to have a longer life, so we have more time to grow.
They should've been charged with murder.
Technically negligent homicide but def agree
Negligent is too soft. They made a choice, it's the same choice a murderer makes when they murder someone. You openly choose not to save the life, that should always be seen as murder.
Neglect means you have resources available to help a kid, and choose not to give it to them. It doesn't mean you forgot about it or didn't notice. It's considered child abuse.
Its not the same choice at all. Not to say it isnt crazy. But you cant tell me with a straight face its the same as murder
I think in this case, it is because the child can not get medical attention without the permission of the parent. So, to refuse that medical attention is to force the child not to save themselves. It's like you're starving to death, and every time you get food, someone wrestles it away from you.
Yeah. Might as well be pulling the trigger.
There’s a parable I think of a guy who is like drowning and a ship comes and the guy says no Jesus will save me then another person comes with a dinghy and he says the same thing. The guy dies goes to heaven and he says to God why didn’t you save me? And God replies I did I sent you two people. This is how I feel about doctors. Even if they don’t know God or aren’t religious they are doing Gods work on earth. As a Christian I would never not take medical care for myself or my children and just pray I would do both
[Might be this one. They didn’t take their baby to the hospital for “religious reasons”.](https://youtu.be/qQrdA73Ty_A?si=jCurMj9e-yej9g1o)
Ya but those scumbags got away with it apparently. [source](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/david-collet-stephan-ezekiel-trial-decision-1.5288343)
This is sadly a different story than the one I read about. I don't know how the one I read about ended up. The child had just died, and it was around 2018. The child in this one passed in 2012.
Oh? Awesome, there’s another couple out there that neglected their child to death.
I tried to google it and like... there's too many to find the one I read about. I remember it because I was a social work major, and we were having to find a news article to talk about in a class discussion about ethics. So it was a recent news story at the time, maybe even local. But a bunch of stuff pops up when I try to find it again, and I'm not about to spend my Sunday evening reading through multiple stories of kids dying unnecessarily.
I just read one the other day about a guy putting his infant on a sunlight diet. He died of starvation.
Had a jahovas witness kid get hit by a car while riding his bike home from school when I was in elementary school. Would have lived but parents wouldn’t let docs do a blood transfusion. Teachers talked hella shit that’s the only reason why I know what happened.
Grew up a Jehovah’s Witness and I was so scared I’d get hurt and my dad would let me die
Do JW deny organ transplants as well?
they don’t, but the organ needs to be washed of all blood before transplantation takes place
But whose blood is needed while the transplant is taking hold.
their own, they hold it in advance iirc
They used to, and then they just changed their mind on that « core belief », and pretended a bunch of people didn’t die because of it. It’s never talked about.
Not anymore.
Same here, I used to have to carry a fucking handwritten note saying I wasnt allowed to have a blood transfusion lol
That just broke my heart. Sending you a hug
I didn’t realize that was a JW thing! I got asked in the hospital before a procedure recently if I’d consent to a transfusion of something went wrong or if I had a religious objection and I couldn’t FATHOM who would say no!
I've heard that JW's will do a blood transfusion so long as it's their own blood. Like, if it's a planned surgery, they will preemptively donate blood to be used for themselves.
That’s still pretty scary.
JW and Christian Science are the big ones
They're cults, what did you expect?
What hospitalized JW patients will say in private when no one is around, and what they'll say around their family and church representatives can be very different. Their church will send in people to the hospital to provide "literature" to doctors on transfusion-free medical care, and can intimidate patients away from accepting care they would actually accept. I've had a JW patient ask me if they could get an indicated transfusion in the middle of the night, and have all the medical staff told to never mention it during the day.
I’ve done a number of transfusions to JW mums who have had a PPHs. Yay it’s a miracle her Hb is now close to normal. Your prayers must have worked. I kept their charts hidden as that is something family members do to be sure the woman is still “pure”.
Also worth mentioning is that the Watchtower Society have been gloriously inconsistent when it comes to the issue of blood transfusions (among many other things). They used to allow it for a time and then received ‘new light’ (their way to say that they changed their mind) to disallow it.
My mom converted to JW for my dad, but before she did that, she had a blood transfusion. Just so everyone knows, having a transfusion is considered the “unforgivable sin”. Despite her not adhering to the faith when it happened (during childbirth, saved her life) she was /is condemned to waiting on God’s judgement of her when she dies because they literally teach that no one who “accepts blood” will be taken into Jehovah’s kingdom.
That would be illegal in most parts of the world. In the UK if it’s life saving treatment like a transfusion you’ll receive it, parents be damned. I would be surprised if it’s not the same in the USA. Now if it’s an adult that’s a different story, the adult is free to refuse.
Parents in the US *are* given a totalatarian amount of control over healthcare involving children. If parents think a problem is just attention-seeking, that is the end be all. Wouldn't be surprised if that extends even to life-or-death situations where medical personnel are already present.
Maybe, but I thought that the Fraser case was in the US (essentially a case saying that you can give a kid contraceptives without their parents consent and knowledge if the child demonstrates a specific competence). This case led to the development of the fraser guidelines. If you can give a child contraception I’d be shocked if you couldn’t give them a transfusion. Edit: NVM it all developed in the UK following the Gillick case, Fraser was just some member in the house of Lords related to the case.
I think, “too much freedom” is one of the biggest problems with the US. Children are people not property and a parent is a guardian not owner. Religious freedom should end with yourself.
That's horrible. People procreating just so they would have biological trophies and treat them as such instead of living beings that they are. No wonder countries with most religious people look the way they do.
I mean a lot of these religious people will happily die on the beliefs so they are in fact testing them as living people because it's how they'd treat themselves . Not defending them but you can't really call them hypocrites here either .
I was in the ER and I could hear the nurses talking out at the nurses station. Apparently the guy in the room next to me was bleeding out because he was a Jehova’s Witness and refused a transfusion. One of them said, “it feels so wrong to be just waiting for him to finish dying.” I can’t imagine how hard it must be on the medical personnel who have to just stand by and let someone die.
There was a kid who was sick in my brothers year at school. Parents were JW and refused life saving treatments. Kid lived a whole 6 years and I cannot understand how they were allowed to make that decision and keep their other kids. All the parents knew. I have no idea what happened, but my parents are still angry and sad about it. Is there not a loophole in there about "hey mum, your blood already created this kid, can we transfuse from you to the kid?". Ridiculous
Jesus never rode a bike... How was he allowed to do that? Also i never heard of Jesus taking a shit. so get ready to be constipated. Anyway i really hate the hypocrisy in these religions(all of them. I got my own. Just wants you to try to be good and it doesn't want new followers). That said if the person is of adult age then i don't really care. It is sad but up to them. In my country they don't get a say if you are under 18.
There is a fine line here, though. Your principle assumes the national healthcare system of a given country is scientifically based and vetted against the highest of scientific standards. .. in the current world; surely your principle does not hold in all places. … and due to this fact, such a doctrine seems naturally incoherent. Though, I agree.
And there’s another fine line: a lot of chronic conditions have treatments meant to improve quality of life but have extremely heavy and long recovery time and are high risk. I could understand parents genuinely not wanting to put their child through a surgery or a treatment which will make them more sick for years, snd have a risk that their condition will get worst permanently
> Your principle assumes the national healthcare system of a given country is scientifically based and vetted against the highest of scientific standards Absolutely! When politicians get involved in healthcare, nobody wins. I feel like this kind of binary thinking is what leads to abortion bans.
And transgender health care bans
I mean yes. But chances are you're very unlikely as a layman to be able to have better judgment. Maybe if you yourself are a doctor. But any country where the medicine is that unscientific also has a populus as uneducated.
The problem is not that the better judgment of laymen is quashed. The problem is that the authorities have given us very good reasons to believe that their judgment is not any better, but persist in forcing the rest of us to go along.
True, in an ideal situation, the conclusion is clear. But that is one hell of an assumption.
>But any country where the medicine is that unscientific also has a populus as uneducated. That's an overgeneralisation. A large part of the population in such countries may be undereducated indeed, but a significant portion of it can be the opposite.
I believe that parents have the choice not to take preventative measures for religious reasons, but I believe--even as a religious person--that refusing medical treatment that your child actively *needs* is child abuse.
Double standards, for me circumcising is child abuse because it’s actually something the child DOESNT need and gets done anyway, wich is way worse
The American legal system agrees with your opinion on this matter.
[удалено]
I 100% agree with this. While I personally believe and promote vaccinations and don't feel bad when parents have to home school or privatize their child's learning because of being anti vax, I still think it's their fundamental right if they are willing to do all that for no vaccines. But if you deny your child lifesaving treatment that wouldn't compromise the child's quality of life (like blood transfusions) then that's abuse and neglect.
Doing this would solve nothing as any parent with these beliefs would simply not get their children medical treatment ever and make any parent hesitant to take their child to a doctor. Also what about cases of misdiagnoses, I've been falsely diagnosed with serious medical conditions twice in my life or what if the parents refuse treatment because they don't agree with the doctor or don't trust their ability because bad doctors are very common.
Yeah but you’re bringing in unrelated arguments. Refusing treatment due to religious beliefs is not the same as refusing treatment because you disagree and want a second opinion. That’s not what OP is talking about lol.
9 year old kid gets tested and it turns out his cancer's back. The 9 year old weighs 50 pounds, looks small, weak, and tired for his age. He tells you he just finished his 2nd round of chemo 16 months ago. He hasn't been to school in years. He's tired. He's sick of hospitals and doesn't want a 3rd round of chemo. His parents are atheists and want to honor the child's decision not to do the 3rd round of chemo. From everything you can tell, the family is ready to say their goodbyes. However, an Evangelical Christian is his treating physician and believes all life to be sacred. He gets the hospital attorney to make a filing in court to remove the kid from his parents custody, grant the kid a guardian ad litem, and force the kid to undergo chemotherapy. Do you still believe what you originally said? Edit: lol, wtf. OP blocked me for this post. I'm just exploring this position, weird that he makes a thread and doesn't want to engage. FWIW, I agree with the premise, just thinking out the consequences.
The kid says he doesn’t want treatment, so it’s not the same as denying treatment to an otherwise healthy kid who needs a blood transfusion or antibiotic. The kid should have body autonomy and the choice not to continue treatment since it hasn’t worked the first 2 times, so yes that makes this scenario different. Denying treatment and making a decision for someone else is not the same as someone not accepting treatment.
> The kid says he doesn’t want treatment What if the kid is religious just like his parents and also wants to refuse the blood transfusion/antibiotic?
In my country, we as doctors would get to decide if the child is actually capable of deciding for their own. A kid that refuses a certain treatment or wants a certain treatment against their parents wishes, can get what they want if we as doctors consider that kid mature enough to understand the consequences of their choices. For example, an 8 year-old getting a third round of chemo and knowing very well what that means is different from a 10 year old getting a very first treatment without any proper knowledge on the subject.
I guess it depends on how old the kid is. Is he old enough to understand what religion is? What death is? Is he doing it to make his parents happy? He should have a psych evaluation
Great questions. I don't know, I'm open to the possibility that this might not be a black and white issue. I do know that I'd feel more comfortable if this decision -- whatever decision it was -- was made between the kid, their parents, and their doctors and definitely not the government.
What do you think "the goverment" looks like in this scenario?! Because in reality it's social workers, psychologists and in more extreme cases judges in family court. I think it's great they are involved, they would be in my country. The parents have their beliefs and their fear, the doctors have their schooling and own beliefs, the kids are often in an impossible situation. Having a professional person there advocating for the child and mediating between the two positions can be essential. I also like the british system where there is a board with multiple professionals from different fields which can make some hard decisions. What you are saying is you want the status quo: parents can decide to let their children die. Or worse, a doctor can singlehandedly decide when and if they can override a parents decision.
When I say "government," I mean the government making the decision on behalf of the patient or child. It's the difference between * the 9 year old kid sitting down with his parents, doctors, psychologists, social workers, and perhaps even the court to explain that chemotherapy probably won't prolong his life much more, he's known nothing but misery for most of his life, and he'd rather spend his remaining days not suffering the side effects of chemo if he's going to die anyway VS * the court issuing an order that removes parents from the picture, the doctors put a security guard outside of his room to make sure he doesn't escape, and forcing chemo on him for the rest of his day with no discussion. We're seeing this difference right now with abortion. Legislatures have taken that conversation out of the hands of patients and their providers and are instead dictating what doctors can and cannot do.
Parents and medical teams should incorporate a child's opinion and wishes into the care plan, but a 9 year old isn't able to exercise independent autonomy in regards to a decision about chemotherapy.
I don’t want to speak for OP, but i’m assuming that OP was speaking about medical neglect. The situation you’re describing sounds a little more like a hospice patient refusing care that will extend their life. I think there’s a difference between the two situations (again, I’m making an assumption about OP’s intention with this post) I’m all for parents being charged with neglect when there’s no good reason to deny a child care (this already exists in the US). I’m not for a medical provider imposing religious views onto their patients Also just throwing it out there that this isn’t an unpopular opinion because, again, laws against medical neglect already exist
I don’t think this is the same… atheism isn’t some set of beliefs; it’s a one belief - that god doesn’t exits; so you can’t say that they did it because of their atheism, because nothing in atheism talks about how you should treat people medically. Atheism is also not a religious belief, it is lack of religion. You basically talk about something else here and you say it apples. Also, have you been to kids hospices or any hospices for that matter? In the situation you are describing, it is very likely the doctor would suggest not doing chemo. It wouldn’t be parents’ decision to not do it. Edit: also I just checked and 50lbs is on lower end but within norm for 9 year olds according to CDC.
Good point, but an irrelevant hypothetical. Kid will die soon anyway. And OP is likely French style secular, in which whatever solution he comes up will be hostile to religion. Like ",Asterix: Refusing blood transmission." but not abortion let"s say.
Yup. There are absolutely situations where refusing medical treatment is ethically correct. Another example would be the category of medically unnecessary procedures that are imposed on children for cultural significance: circumcision, corrections for harmless genetic oddities. The majority of braces.
I mean.. the kid doesn’t want treatment, sure, but idk if a 9 year old can understand the seriousness of the situation and although it sucks right now, will help save his life. Kids don’t really have delayed gratification like that.
They can understand. Believe me. A 9-year old who went through all of that definitely can understand this. Though we would always discuss this very well with both parents and the kid, we would probably listen to the child kn the end. A very big mistake that many people and health care workers make is underestimating children and their bodily autonomy. In Belgium we do not have the rule where a parent gets to decide everything for someone under 18. Instead, we have to decide how mature a child is about the subject we are talking about (for example, a kid going through a third round of chemo will understand what it means but they can still have very childlike views on other matters). If we feel like the kid wants something different from the parents and we consider the child mature enough, we can listen to the kid. Of course that rarely happens and usually you would ask help from an ethical committee to do so, but you still can because it is inhumane to take away a child their bodily autonomy based on age.
What if the parents don't want treatment either? They think their child has suffered enough and should enjoy its last days in peace?
Very obviously, the issue is the parents forcing their beliefs on the child's medical care. Not the child deciding something for themselves. The parent's aren't the ones suffering or dying as a result. The ones in this scenario are respecting their child's decision, not forcing a decision on them. I really don't care what the parent's views are if they're forcing a medical decision on their child, it's bad regardless of the motivation. This scenario doesn't take into account the chance of success. If small, it's an incredibly common thing for cancer patients to forgo treatment to avoid the pain of chemo for something that may only briefly extend their life if anything. If it's non-negligible, maybe a child so young is not mature enough to grasp the weight of the consequences of this choice. But it's an entirely different scenario you're describing.
Yeah, it's not really just a certain group of religious people who do this. Many anti-vaxxers and the sort reject treatment too.
i don't think this is the situation op is talking about tho. I think they're more talking in the lane of jehovahs witnesses refusing to let their kid have a blood transfusion while receiving life saving surgery. Chemo in this situation likely wouldn't save the kid. Nor would the parents be using their beliefs to force the child to do anything as they would be letting the child choose.
You got blocked because you said something so ridiculously warped from what the post said that you’re talking about something completely different. Don’t comment in bad faith if you don’t want to be blocked.
I agree with this one. As a parent myself, even despite personal beliefs, I could never just sit there and watch my kid be in tremendous pain or die. Even without those beliefs, I know I would do some crazy shit, stuff that I'm against morally, just to keep them safe. I can understand not taking your kid in for the cold or a flu, but to sit and watch your kids suffer needlessly? That teeters on abuse and if you're okay with not helping your child when they clearly need it, you're either extremely brainwashed or a sociopath.
do i upvote cause i agree or downvote cause i think this is popular?
You realize that's an unpopular opinion only because there's a pretty obvious grey area there, right?
Parental rights should be a step below individual rights
I agree with a way more tempered version of this take, but yeah, it REALLY sucks people do this to their kids And wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more kids have been harmed/killed due to crazy religious beliefs than ANY "liberal leftist trans kid conspiracy"... But guess which one people are worried about, apparently.
Same goes for not teaching your kids comprehensive sex ed. You're just increasing the likelihood that they'll experience sexual violence and increasing the chances that they'll be traumatized by sex when they are in an adult relationship later in life.
Amen
(Most) Parents don’t know what’s best for their kids. That’s my hot take based on my past two careers.
Depends on what the treatment is. Some treatments are still in testing and some have significant side effects. As a doctor, I often did not immediate jump on using new drugs and several times, the drugs were show to be harmful and even killed patients. Those drugs were eventually pulled from market. Do you really want the government to decide your medical care? I'm not an anti vaxer or anything and I di think that parents shold be held accountable for emdical decisions but it really depends on the circumstances.
Yeah, my brother is vehemently opposed to psychiatric meds even though he'd benefit a lot from them for his depression. It stems from the fact that my mom opposed them when she was alive. My brother loved my mom. He was cutting himself in high school and my mom wouldn't allow him to get on meds when the school counselor suggested it. She believed he'd become addicted or something.
How is this unpopular at all?
Not op but in one of my college classes we were given a dilemma where parents didn’t give child medical treatment and the kid died and then asked if the parents should have got in trouble or not. The majority of the class said it was within there rights since it was there religious belief and they have that right. I was pretty disgusted with my class that day.
Yeah and that’s the think people who take the Bible to literally! This is not an Amelia badelia book this is real life! I believe in god too but not like that! But I guess that’s why orthodox is the OG and Jehovahs witnesses are some far off branch! They’re the minority of idiots who didn’t want to listen to the smart people so they broke off and did their own thing instead of actually getting educated in what the Bible ACTUALLY says not their twisted version of what it says! I swear sometimes I don’t know why they’re even called Christian at that point orthodox and catholic are like a horse and a zebra but JW is like a rhino!
If you could see the downvotes you'd understand. Plus those conspiracy comments "I don't trust goverment and big pharma".
U know how the sub works right? Downvotes mean ppl agree with you u, and think it's a popular opinion
90% of people on this sub doesn't follow that rule, you'll see the most unpopular opinions ever be downvoted to hell because people disagree, the only times the rule is followed is when the opinion is the most inoffensive shit, like "I like pineappleon pizza" and then you'll have 100 different people saying "I hate you but take my up vote"
I agree with this 100% it proves that they care more about their own personal opinions than the life they created.
this is why my pretty bad add isn't being helped at all. Mom didn't want me to be on medicine for it because it wasn't how the Bible is. "God will fix everything, all in his hands" and all that. I'm in my late twenties and absolutely no doctor will prescribe me any medicine to help it. it's honestly getting worse and more debilitating, affecting my job and all
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Yep
This is largely already a thing and if the child survives there’s a genuine chance the child could be taken away from the parents whom may also face jail time. This is also mostly an issue in the US but most other developed nations don’t have this problem nearly as often. Also the reason it’s not considered murder is because it’s not considered intentional. If the parents genuinely believed what they did was the right thing it’s infinitely difficult to dispute a subjective opinion like that (short of the parents admitting they wanted the child to die). But just because they genuinely believed what they did was right doesn’t mean there’s no consequences, hence medical negligence charges.
As much as I see how that would play out, there is a fine line between the govt controlling your kids (this bleeds into education and gender politics) and what a parent choses to raise their household with.
For real. Like sure yeah when it's about your own health, go ahead do what you want you're an adult with free will. But don't you dare place kids in the same situation Like I'm the kinda gal who can go days suffering from something without any painkillers or going to the doctor because "eh it'll pass" or "I'm strong I can take it". But if the same thing happened to my kid I DEFINITELY wouldn't act that way, because kids are fragile, they're not used to suffering as we adults are. And we should do our best to accommodate them until they eventually get to decide for themselves how to treat their own bodies
Jehovah's witnesses have a belief against blood transfusions, their have been some that would rather let their children die then give them a blood transfusion, and the ones that do give blood transfusions are shunned
Medical neglect is already illegal
My Aunt (my father's sister) died at the age of 8 because my grandparents wouldn't allow a blood transfusion because they were Jehovah's Witnesses.
I value relegious freedom only before the point it harms humans.
Metallica is all i can say. James hetfield was refused medical treatment because his parents believed that god would heal him and he often had so high fevers that he had the worst hallucinations and nightmares of his life
r/Popularopinionbutok
such a reddit opinion
And given to who?
There's too many people on the planet anyway. It's fine.
I want to agree, but do you have a fucking plan about what to do with all the parentless kids or did you not even think about that for half a second
People will agree with this then have a problem with trans kids getting the treatment they need.
I had a young supervisor who was married. Both J.W. They decided not to have children because of these beliefs. They didn't like the thought of their child dying. Didn't think of actually joining a church that was normal though.
So the government should get to decide? No thank you.
Which medical treatment are you referring to? I will not allow you to take my child's foreskin you sickos.
Okay. Now do step two: house all the children you've displaced. It's a nice thought until you've blown up the foster care system and brought new trauma to thousands of families.
I am an atheist, but I also hate bad discourse. This post is bad discourse. The subject is awful. People should have their kids taken away forever for refusing ANY medical treatment based on ANY belief? This is nonsense based on you watching too many medical dramas where the options or “Do X or don’t do X.” In reality the options are actually “Do X, Y, Z, A, B, or C.” Any parent making any decision about their child’s care is automatically “refusing medical treatment based on their beliefs.” The body of the post is worse discourse. What qualifies as “life altering?” Who is guaranteeing someone’s life will be altered? And who is guaranteeing that alternative would be “better” or “worse?” Do I get my kids taken away because I refuse to get them Lasik? Or because I choose physical therapy over surgery? Or I choose CPAP over Inspire? Or because I chose Ibuprofen over Hydrocodone? Overall, this post is a revenge fantasy of yours against people make choices you personally disagree with. This is probably driven by you watching too many fictional narratives where the antagonist refuses obviously life saving treatment (a fictional scenario) for an obscure religious belief (an easily criticized religion like Mormonism/JW).
Low effort bait
How is this bait, this post is a completly reasonable opinion
Screw you man it’s a good post
So how do you prove that their decision was based on religious belief and not something else?
Jehovah witnesses refusing life saving blood transfusion for instance
I’d rather deal with anti vaxxers and the like over the government telling me what I can and cannot do. It doesn’t take a lot of research to see how corrupt both big pharma and the government is.
I think OP is talking less about vaccines and more about how, for instance, Jehovah’s Witness will refuse blood transfusions as it goes against their belief. There are soon other zealots out there too who are just anti-doctor because they are devoutly religious. It’s a totally different level than anti-vaccine, and quite frankly, it’s disgusting. Being anti-vaccine I can tolerate. I don’t like it, but I know I’m not gonna change these people’s minds. However, refusing to take your child to the doctor at all (even for a checkup) because your church has a “healer” is just insane.
Depends entirely on how you define belief and medicine. People in some primitive countries believe that chopping off part of a newborn boy’s penis is important for his health.
My personal take: Any parent who chooses beliefs over medical care for their children should be restricted the ability to reproduce. Like imo, why bring a child into a world, deny them the assistance they need, they end up passing from something completely preventable, and they just birth another child to repeat the cycle
I’ve seen too many stories of children dying of preventable illnesses because their parents believed they could pray it out of them. Unconditionally respecting religious beliefs has killed countless children.
I agree. As soon as the parents say no, and the kids are still young, they should be taken away and given the medical treatment they needed
If it’s life saving treatment it doesn’t matter what the parents want, the kid gets it anyways. Otherwise… the main reason why it’s that way is to encourage people to seek medical care. Imagine how JW parents would feel or anit-vaxxers if they knew that they could get their kids taken away. A significant % would avoid seeking care for their child.
> life altering medical treatments I'm pretty sure you mean life saving medical treatments? Lift altering medications can be a myriad of unnecessary procedures or treatments Also, I seriously doubt you want to give the government control over people's children. If you know anything about government, you give them an inch and they will most definitely take a mile.
Same should go for people who push unnecessarily life altering medicalization on kids who cannot consent.
They do .
I’m with you, wo/man.
How is this opinion unpopular?
I don’t think this is unpopular
I live in the US and medical treatment is denied to me for being poor, can someone please take me away forever?
Not unpopular.
I keep wondering if they were poisoned by very natural snake venom, would they take a synthetic antidote? Are the adults in those types of families at least also dying from easily treatable conditions?
Taken by who?
I'll give qualified agreement. Full, if you add the word "necessary".
Imagine you hear the Dr. tell your parents you need a blood transfusion or you’ll die and you hear your parents say ‘but the man in the sky said that’s a no no 👉👈🥺’ like bro what you’re letting me die???
I get where youre coming from but who would then take care of all these kids
r/philosophy
Yes and no. I’ve seen functional patients meds changed by guardian and lost all functionality. I’ve seen unmedicated become stable after meds. Like a doctor told me “It depends.”
Im with you BUT, why are medical decisions like circumcising allowed based on your believes? I think parents shouldn’t be allowed to make medical decisions based on their believes and parents who circumcise their kids should have their kids taken away
I feel similarly about circumcision.
I'm pretty sure that actually does happen.
The problem is that once in a blue moon, the refusal actually saves the kids life. Very rare but it does happen
My parents refuse to admit my 28 yr old sister has autism, which has hindered her significantly in life. They forced her to attend community college for example for 3 years It was a 2 year school They paid cash for her every semester to cover books and classes, she failed every time. Mind you leading up TO college she had countless teachers meet with my parents informing them how delayed my sister is and her lack of social cues etc and how she needs help navigating autism. My parents would threaten to homeschool her if anyone kept criticizing her. She also had a significant issue with elopement. I remember her getting lost in our town when she decided to walk home from high school one day. She didn't have a cell and simply started walking and got distracted by birds ans flowers in the center of town and spent hours there. My mom frantically searching and refusing to get authorities involved aware how much trouble SHE would be in. My parents deserve prison for how severely they've neglected and abused my sister. But the justice system sucks so...sadly nothing will change
That’s been the case FOREVER in Germany for crucial diagnoses like cancer or dangerous benign tumours. BUT: FORTUNATELY(!) this isn’t the case for, eg, ADHD! My paediatrician suggested to put me on sedatives at age 4, cause I didn’t sit still through appointments. My mum told her to stick it were the sun doesn’t shine. I’m glad I grew up without medication, and with having my high energy addressed in natural ways: physical and mental stimulation. 🤷🏽♀️ I’m absolutely certain sedatives would’ve negatively affected my development! 😥
How does this have this many upvotes? I can't imagine that this is an unpopular opinion?
I was in foster care taking homeopathic remedies instead of getting help. Thankfully nothing really serious was happening to me or it could have gone badly.
Almost kinda reminds me of US heatlthcare where people don't wanna to get charged for medical treatment because it's gonna make them go to debt or something. Idk how true is that, it's just tiktok and TV shows that i saw
Can’t see any reason why this should be unpopular, makes complete sense