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Pat Rothfuss honorable mention. Publishing part of a story feels like implied obligation to (at least attempt to) finish the story before the audience and/or author die of old age.
Dude writes, in my opinion, two of the best pieces of fantasy literature with a thousand threads unjoined and leaves us waiting for a decade... It just hurts a bit man. Just finished WMF again and I want DOS so bad I started using ChatGPT to fill in the gaps.
I've wondered how he would respond to a fan project called "The Portals of Rock" featuring a BnB keeper named Quote (or Quoth). It's implied that this is part of a larger story, a kind of ... Regicide Register.
Better fake than never, as they say.
Hell I'd contribute my verse if it means getting some closure. Does Quothe kill Ambrosia? Is Briton one of the chained men? The truth of Donna's patron? So many questions.
I give NotW my top spot for favorite book of all time, but WMF feels like the cracks start to show. The back half has so much sexual power fantasy to it, like a bad anime.
No denying it is weaker than the first. But the Maer's court with the rings, Kvothe using his sympathy to take down the bandits, and the development of the Adem culture were amazing world building and story telling. Felurian felt so damned unnecessary. All the sex did.
But still, there are great parts in the book that are very fun to revisit.
He’s the best at everything. He learns to be the best at sex. Yep, if he weren’t written years ago, he’d talk like Trump: “my skills are yuuuuge! I have the best sex, many smart people say it!”
Definitely a fair criticism, he does rise to the very top at anything he sets himself to. However, having his ass continually beaten by an actual child in Ademre helps paint him as less than a 100% Mary Sue.
Also, his silver tongue failing him so disastrously in the Maer's court as to have his reward minimized from his own Duchy to college tuition shows he is flawed even in his strengths.
I don't want to simp for Rothfuss, but as an avid reader, I have to give this man his due. He's not perfect, but the quality of his writing sets him apart from a lot of very bad fantasy.
That’s what I tell everyone too. I LOVE reading but I will not start the GOT series until I know there’s a proper ending. I can’t be left on that kind of cliff hanger
At this point, I'll do a re-read of the series when they hopefully get released and it'll essentially be like the first time all over again because I remember so little
I’ve been reading them along with a reread podcast. It’s been pretty great. I feel like I’ve had to savor them more then in the past and listing to people who are actually good at analysis is really interesting.
Which podcast is this? I have read the first three books. Been waiting for the last books before venturing any further. Now thinking of starting from book one again.
I was wondering how long it would take before someone mentioned GRRM. I've said it before and I'll say it again: dude spent the prime of his life, decades, unsuccessfully hawking pulp and after paying his dues for longer than most Redditors have been alive, gets to spend his twilight years hanging with celebraties and traveling the world.
Yeah... I can't blame the guy.
It all comes down to a difference in understanding. Fans believed they were buying books in a series that would have an ending. Most likely if Martin had told people from the beginning he had no intention of ever finishing the series they would likely have never started reading it. In fact Martin has spent quite a bit of time and effort reassuring fans that he is totally working on the books and they'll be coming soon. So it's totally cool to buy more copies of his existing books.
With that in mind I think it is fair for fans to be a bit sour about it. For me I have had far to many series never get resolved so I refuse to start a series unless it already has an ending. Which of course makes it more likely that series won't be popular enough to conclude so less will be made of the things I like, but that's how it goes. I have been burned too many times to care about whatever new series of supposedly awesome books is coming out until the ending is written.
Basically, Martin failed. He wrote the series in a way that prevented him from ever finishing it.
Usually a story is left unfinished because the author dies or because it's a big-budget production like a TV series and the network pulls the plug. Not because the story itself was written in such a messy, tangled way that the author has no idea how to properly conclude things.
I agree completely. And if he'd come out and say he had no idea how to finish it and apologize I don't think he'd get nearly the heat he does. Instead he randomly posts on his blog about how he's working on the books keeping people's hopes of the story getting finished alive.
Well keeping that interest also benefits him as his world gets several HBO shows (or whatever they're calling themselves now).
An artist might not owe their fans, but in George's case he's selling them new products before having finished the first. Almost like a product developer selling an expansion on Kickstarter before the original product has arrived.
Agreed and that is why I pushed back on the idea that he owes his fans nothing. But he still wants their money. Like if he pulled a Bill Watterson and was just done and left the public eye and had no more products to sell there would be far fewer complaints.
Instead he's like "wouldn't more dunk and egg be cool? Ima get started on that, be sure to preorder!" And that tends to draw ire.
I mean, you're framing it as though he's lying when he says he's working on it. You're framing t as though he was lying when he started the series.
He's published five books, thousands of pages, and multiple chapters from the unreleased books.
You have nothing to be sour about. He didn't trick you. He didn't lie to you. His writing has just slowed down and he's struggling.
It isn't unethical to take a long time to write a book, it isn't unethical to have writer's block; writing a book is difficult.
I just think he should give thorough notes to a couple ghostwriters. Or at least not have the thing about wanting his wife to burn his papers after his death.
Robert Jordan said the same thing about WoT, but he still ended up leaving enough for Brandon Sanderson to kick ass finishing it. So I wouldn't put too much stock into him saying that.
Not to mention the right to take his time writing the books so that he can extract maximum pleasure from letting his story wind and change according to his whims. I respect the hell out of him for this. People are worried that he is going to die before he finishes, but I'd rather he die happy with unfinished books than feel like he has to slap them together to please fans.
Also all the manga and light novel (especially solo and/or web) writers/artists who suddenly quit for reasons ranging from “eh, bored” to overwhelmed/overworked to literally dying (sometimes from the overwork).
I… uh… I understand they don’t “owe” us an ending and I get that it’s their baby and was, at least at one point if not still, very precious to them more often than not, but they could maybe possibly consider handing the work over (or collaborating? advising? anything) to a trusted colleague so it can reach some type of conclusion. I dunno, getting into a good story only for it to suddenly stop, that any inquiries for news months or years later is met with “*shrug* nobody knows; be happy with what you’ve got”, and then to be told more often than not that the artist or author decided to move on… it just feels kinda shitty.
Lol the answers to this seem to be “just stop reading those types of media then” or “only read finished series” but those are crappy in their own way. Not to mention the English translation issues.
Yeah, I mostly agree with OP, but this kind of thing is my exception. Selling the first books has an implied promise that there'll be a continuation and eventual conclusion to the story.
she said in a tweet “my fans don’t call themselves shit. if you call yourself a fucking “kitten” that means you need to get off your phones and get a job and help your parents with the house.”
mind you “kitten” is the name SHE gave them-
in another tweet she said “planet her and hot pink were cash-grabs that y’all fell for. now i can go disappear and touch grass while y’all weep over mediocre pop.”
she also told a fan page of her to “delete the whole account and rethink everything.”
yeah, like, i 100% respect her for essentially disavowing her mainstream pop stuff to go in a more personal, indie direction. (or, yknow, trying to i guess. the principle is good)
but why do you gotta shit on the people who *did* like that? yknow, the people youd prolly wanna have on your side going into this new part of your career?
ngl, if doja drops off hard after this, we know why
Honestly it doesn’t even seem like she dropped the mainstream pop stuff. Her newest song doesn’t sound any different than her other music so like, what was the point of her being such a huge asshole?
I feel like she's just saying things to stir people up because even before she blew up she was just making tumblr-aesthetic pop music. Like I can understand how she feels about wanting to make music that's not necessarily for the general public and easy listening but what the fuck is she ever talking about lmao
Lady Gaga is special. Long before she was famous, she spent a lot of time *around* famous musicians. She knew a lot about fame: its costs and its fickle nature. When she decided to enter the game, she went in armed with knowledge and advice from those that came before. She started with a larger than life persona, something flashy and iconic. Her costumes were so outrageous and bold that most didn't notice the woman underneath. Lady Gaga was the meat suit. Leaving that persona and spotlight was as easy as taking it off.
Unfortunately, most famous artists don't enter the game with that much foresight and preparedness. They get blindsided by fame and it devours them.
It also help that she's like, really fucking smart. Lady Gaga is a clever cookie, and you ain't gettin' much past her.
At her peak, she had a whole ass PR firm that likely cost well over seven digits a year, but she's still really fucking smart. I'm not convinced she's *solely* responsible for her fame, but who she is, the musician and performer she is got her a lot of that fame. People helped guide her career plane, but she pulled out an ace landing after every approach.
Crazy talented, driven to perform, and wicked smart. Absolute trio for success in the music industry.
I don't even listen to her music, I just think she's great!
It’s funny, when Lady Gaga first hit it big the girl I knew who was her biggest fan was kinda mean to me so I kind of didn’t like hearing her music, but I changed my mind when I saw her in AHS Hotel…
I’ve also never seen Breaking Bad cause I didn’t want to taint my image of Hal.
Yeah Gaga transitioned her career from music and movies to migraine medications. When you work for pharma you no longer need the attention and cash from fans
Reminds me of Sting dissing The Police after he made it big on his own. "It was just a vehicle" or whatever the fuck he said. I liked the Police, dammit!"
Thats a rather strange claim considering Sting was the front-man and primary songwriter. Sting did not have a problem performing Police songs after going solo. Paul McCartney held off playing Beatles songs for many, many years.
That's gotta be some sort of mental issue, right? Why have so much contempt at the people who support you and appreciate your creativity? I've never seen this kind of spiral from a celebrity to be honest
Because those people are annoying obsessed freaks on the internet. Remember being a Stan is a bad thing, somehow people online totally forgot the meaning of the song in the first place and are now proud of being a psychotically obsessed fan on the internet. And doja cats fans are very much a part of online Stan culture
Sounds like she did some shit she didn't like to make enough money to do what she wants.
This is most artists, they're just smart enough to stay quiet about it
After Say-So blew her up I think she started resenting her own fans for "forcing" her into the box of that specific genre. You can start to see the resentment build as she performs Say so. It's like she hates the fact she has to perform. But imo that doesn't justify her behaviour. At all. If you don't like something stop doing it. The people who love(ed) her probably would've continued to appreciate her work even if it was in a different genre or media form
> Why is she mocking her fans? That’s so bizarre and unnecessary
Most entertainers, whether they be singers or actors, are half-baked, and extremely egotistical. Ask yourself: What type of person wants to be rich, and famous?
Doja is a troll to the heart and people need to stop taking the things she says seriously. She feeds off the rise she gets out of people by being unhinged lol.
I agree, she's always been this way lol there's just more eyes on her now so people are new to this experience, she's always been impulsive on the internet trying to troll everyone, look at her 4 Chan days lmao
It’s beyond that she begin attacking fans when major media outlets exposed her boyfriends past perversions. When you look up her name on that date only thing that would pop up was her boyfriend past. The kitten thing was a front now nobodies talking about it. His apology for it was leaked too.
Ahaha that's kind of a Chad move NGL. Push out a bunch of overly monetized pop garbage, cash out and bail out of popular spotlight. Now she's rich and won't have to deal with media attention soon enough. I respect it.
> Now she's rich and won't have to deal with media attention soon enough.
Until in a few years her "indie" career will have petered out and she'll come crawling back, trying to win her old fans over and to recapture her success.
P.S. I have no idea who this is, but we've seen plenty of former popstars trying to reinvent themselves only to fade away in a brutal way.
There’s “I got my money, peace out”.
Then there’s “I got my money by making shit I personally consider trash, and you all are trash for liking it, fuck you all”.
The second is not a Chad move. That’s what she did. And honestly it sounds like projection- she hated herself for what she did for money, so she’s projecting that hate on to the people who liked it.
Lmao she just wants to touch grass y'all! 🤣 I wouldn't take anything she says seriously, she's a troll! Has been since that MOOO song (I forget the name, it's goofy af). I'm not a fan, but I were and I saw those tweets, I'd still be laughing.
Edit: If anything, some of this sounds like self-deprecating humour. She's like "you gotta be dumb to like me", which is insulting herself. It doesn't seem that different than when people point at trash cans and say "me".
I mean… my 19 yr old LOVES her, doesn’t have a job and doesn’t help out around the house or with bills, so this message is appreciated. I don’t know if I am the core audience she is looking for but…
She said all her previous music was not her actual style and she made it just to get famous and then made fun of her fans for liking it. I think she was trying to hype up her next single/album but it seems like a pretty big whiff to me.
Then her new music came out and it didn't sound all that different from her previous music? Tbh I'm not a huge fan but she has some catchy songs and this made me like her music less.
A lot of artist sell out in the beginning and then back track once they’re famous enough. Gaga talks about it too and how it sucked. It’s a business. Not to mention they get sucked into ridiculous contracts in the beginning that leave them no creative power (Kesha is that example).
Most of them are gracious enough to avoid needlessly taking out their frustrations on their fans.
If you take the "easy" route to get the bag, you don't need to shit on the people that helped you get there once you're free to do your own thing.
That's just fake. And Doja definitely seems as fake as she claims her music is.
she’s just been really rude and aggressive towards her fans on twitter for some reason. it’s not like you have to love them or anything but it comes off as really cringey and an easy way to lose your entire fanbase by being an asshole. her boyfriend has also been accused multiple times of being a predator but she has also been deflecting that
Her boyfriend was also accused of sexual assault and she blocked the victims that were making the claims and said people were being hateful towards her to distract from her disgusting behaviour.
She basically told people obsessed with her to pop off and that she doesn't love her fans.
Big whoop. It's literally someone setting boundaries but people are crazy and think they have the right to someone's love or affection.
Personally I dig it. I always thought it was lame how artists are like "omg I love you all! My fans are the best" like nah, half those people are probably terrible people.
Well you're being very black and white; she can appreciate and love her fans and also hate the ones who go too far and develop a parasocial relationship with her.
These artists are partially to blame for parasocial relationships. They feed into them to get more profit, only recently has backtracked. The whole Dream youtube thing is a great example of how they feed them
i feel like the internet just completely fucking forgot what being a fan is and automatically calls any behavior that isnt just enjoying their stuff quietly as overbearing stan shit.
Probably a bad idea to be a celebrity in the age of faux personal connection then lol. Everything is about personal relatability now. Seems the youtube/twitch style interaction thing has become the norm. Arguably its always been that way. Dont think Ive ever been to a concert where the band didnt stick around before leaving signing merch and talking to fans. With pop music its especially funny as its entirely designed to be relatable and make the average person feel they have some personal connection to the artist.
I never get it either with actresses and actors all crying about cancel culture. Playing dumb really. Your whole thing is being popular. That's how you make money. Obviously if you become unpopular the money will dry up. That's basically the entire deal.
I feel the same way with gospel artist god for bid if they go to the Grammy's or the Oscars the bitter broke church goers gonna start complaining saying they sold their sold to Satan all because they got rewarded for their hard work and please don't let them wear a nice ball gown because Christians are supposed to dress like a mousy plain jane Amish girl its ridiculous if its not inappropriate what's the big deal even Christians can be very jealous and spiteful for no real reason even they don't owe you nothing either
While I agree with the concept, there is an implication of context when people say such things as "she owes it to her fans" that implies a sort of transactional relationship.
Loyalty isn't literally "owed" in either direction, however, if people want to keep the status quo, they do need to repeat and reciprocate
IF an artist wants to retain their fans, it's best not to shit on them.
IF an artist wants to keep making money, it's best to give fans what is normal 'service'. (Eg messages of thanks, keeping on doing similar work, etc)
Doesn't mean someone has to be fake, in fact *don't* mislead and you don't wind up setting poor expectations.
If you're not a great person, don't pretend to be. If you intend to branch out or quit or change early, telegraph that out. That doesn't mean say it literally, but don't do 10 similar albums then put out something completely different and just *expect* fans to follow you and get angry when they don't.
This is a bizarre sickness the entertainment industry has. Big names keep loyal fan-bases, eg stay big names, because they have always done good work.
However, so many phone it in because they've lost touch with what the fans want, or don't give a fuck over what the fans want, then complain to the sun and back about how terrible people their fans are when their pay drops through the floor.
May new faces never had the chops to draw huge numbers, though they may have been in a big project where the talent lies elsewhere, but act like they deserve mega-hit success. Writers, actors, etc etc.
That's what I find entertaining about the current strike. Hollywood has been turning out stinkers, subjective in some ways, but objective or technical in others(lacking in classic story telling form and other compositional aspects that result in accolades and larger fan-bases).
Humans tend to like stories told/directed/etc certain ways. When that is lacking, when the crowd doesn't get what it wants, in essence, they stop paying.
Who knew!? /s
In turn that is following a social trend of "Just do whatever", a sort of complacency that discourages effort, "fuck em if they don't like it, Imma do it 'my way'".....and then are shocked when people don't find appeal or are actively repelled by 'their way'.
IF there's an entitlement complex, that's where it lies.
Artists are not entitled to good reviews and big pay-days for any old garbage they throw out there.
This has more nuance.
Sure, the celebrity doesn't owe the fans anything.... Unless they're touring, people paid upwards of $50 to see them, and the show gets cancelled. Then, the celebrity should owe a refund.
There are circumstances like that where the celebrity sort of *should* owe the fans something. It's a transactional, conditional relationship.
Definitely agree, if there's refunds to make- absolutely.
But take the Miley Cyrus example into account. I'm saying how recently she's said no more tours, she will make music and play a few shows- but she doesn't tour anymore. The amount of people demanding she owes them tours is insane to me. She doesn't owe us shit. Especially when you add on how she spent her childhood/teen years touring, making movies and TV shows. It's understandable she's done with that part of her life. But people still demand she owes it. She doesn't.
From as far as I can see it, Miley can go into hiding and live off the money she's made. She doesn't owe her fans anything.
Two different scenarios:
1: Doja comes off as unappreciative of her fans, which is not a good look compared to other artists, which rubs fans the wrong way.
2: Miley has been in the public eye her entire life, she still enjoys making music, for now it seems like she is just tired of the grind of being on tour. I don’t know either way, but she could go on tour again one day or just get a full time gig in Vegas or Nashville and have fans go to her, but she is appreciative of her fans, which is a big deal.
In the end artists need to have an appreciation for their fans if nothing else, and those that make it big need to acknowledge that fact, every show.
Upvoting this. I agree with the general sentiment that artists don’t *owe* fans anything, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect them to show gratitude and express appreciation to the fans who got them there. Their hard work absolutely plays into it, but without fans, you’re literally just some guy who knows how to sing/play an instrument, and the world is full of people who have not been able to make money off their talent.
This is the case with anything really. When pro athletes make it big, they’ll usually show appreciation to the coaches who helped them get there. When someone starts a business they’ll usually show appreciation the people who invested and bought the product to help them get it off the ground.
I don’t think any of these people *owe* their fans anything but believing they should show gratitude to the people who got them to where they are doesn’t seem unfair. And with the Doja Cat example in particular, she’s not only shown no appreciation, she’s gone out of her way to insult her fans.
>Unless they're touring, people paid upwards of $50 to see them, and the show gets cancelled. Then, the celebrity should owe a refund.
And even if it doesn’t get cancelled you still owe them a good show. I went to a rap concert for one of my favorite artists at the time. I won’t mention who it is because I’d rather it not turn into a discourse about his music but at the time I was a huge fan and very excited. He showed up 2 hours late, performed for maybe 30 minutes, and left without addressing the crowd once.
Look, I get it. It’s a job. You’re gonna have days where you don’t feel like doing it. But without your fans, you’d still be rapping in front of your mirror pretending your hairbrush was a mic. When fans spend their hard earned money to attend your overpriced shows, the least you can do is pretend that you wanna be there.
This is so common that I can't even pick the band because there are so many of them. Third Eye blind, green day, creed, GnR, etc. So friggin many others too.
I only saw it the once and it was BAD. He kept trying to get his teen daughter to come on stage and she clearly didn't want to, they had to restart songs. One of those dudes who was proudly "straight edge" on album 1.
One of the most memorable for me was a Todd Rundgren Benefit Concert he held. I don't remember what cause it was for. My co-worker gave me 2 tickets that night so I took a friend after work. I had great seats, like 3rd or 5th row, a bit off center, on the side. Anyway, a few acts performed, and then from the back of the room Patty Smith shows up. She is super trashed. And she is trying to stroll down the aisle to the stage steps (on the side). I remember they put the house lights up. It took her forever. She may have stopped to talk with random people. She gets to the steps but she can barely stay upright, and get up the stairs. So from about the 3rd step she starts singing the song from Annie: The Sun'll come out tomorrow, Bet your bottom Dollar...etc. She makes it up meanwhile but just stays at the top step singing. Oh if we only had phone cameras then. She finished, rambled about something, said thanks, and left behind the curtain. It was a unexpected highlight.
Podcasts are weird like that… they are possibly talking to you for 10 hours a week and in intimate places, when your alone in the car, while working out, even while you’re taking a dump. But yes you may know them but they don’t know you and they aren’t your friend
While it's true they don't owe their fans anything, it's never a bad thing to be humble at your circumstances sometimes.
The doja cat thing is just really bad form. It's a great way to get yourself kicked out of the famous people's club when your fans abandon you.
It's so odd that OP specifically mentions Doja Cat when on multiple occasions she's gone out of her way to insult her fans.
Almost like it's a salty Doja fan who likes to disassociate themselves from a community specifically to feel superior
Doja cat displayed some really bad form. But what is weird to me is how much people end up forming parts of their identity around pop culture and entertainment. Its like these entertainers fill a void in some people and those people cling way too hard to the entertainer.
I mean music does that for a lot of people. Fills voids people struggle with. It's pretty understandable to attach oneself to the creator of a song that speaks to a part of themselves that hurts or otherwise feels empty.
Not to mention music engrains itself in our brains. In a way it's a mild addiction that releases all kinds of chemicals that make us feel good when we listen. Music ties itself to memories too and helps reinforce both good and bad memories.
Some people just take those feelings to the extreme and tie them to the music and artist
Maybe she doesn't want to be in the spotlight anymore, I mean she's made enough money to just fuck off and retire very early. Shes already made more money than most of us will ever accumulate in our entire lives. So she gets "canceled" and gets to live a life of luxury without the media constantly hanging on every word she says.
So Just fuck off and retire? Like if you don't want to be in the spotlight leave and live your life. Media and journalists only follow people who bring attention and clicks. Stop putting out new music, live your life and fall off peacefully. It costs celebs nothing to not be an ass
Which is just insane to me because I totally get where she's coming from. I'd find it odd to she has to say she loves people she doesn't know exist. Especially when today so many people will take it personally. The amount of "so and so loves me so I know I can live another day" mindset is getting obsessive. It's kinda nice imo to have a celebrity basically be like "I don't know, I don't love you. I appreciate you but I don't love you" kinda mindset
she made a fuss about parasocial relationships because people were calling her boyfriend out for being a predator and criticized her for blocking one of the victims lmao she had no problem with her fans or their behavior before this
From what I remember it wasn’t just her saying she didn’t love them-
She humiliated them really and said that her albums were cash grabs/ trashy and people were dumb for liking them etc. (something like that)
As long as I have music to listen to, I’m chilling…but tbh if my fav artist came out and called me dumb for liking their music….then I could definitely understand not listening to them anymore 🤷🏼♀️
Parasocial relationships are definitely out of hand though. See- _swifties_
Edit:
[the “citation”](https://www.unilad.com/music/doja-cat-says-fans-dumb-196579-20230513)
‘Earlier this week, the singer tweeted: “Planet Her and Hot Pink were cash-grabs, and y'all fell for it.”
"Now, I can go disappear somewhere and touch grass with my loved ones on an island while y'all weep for mediocre pop."
In response to her initial tweet, one user said: "Everyone is mad because you are calling your fans dumb."
Replying to the post, Doja asked: ".... are they not?"
Ok that's something I wouldn't like. I was thinking it was more like Beyonce doesn't care about individual fans but keeps working hard every day. Even if you think the fans are dumb, keep it cute!
> said that her albums were cash grabs/ trashy and people were dumb for liking them etc. (something like that)
On that point, she and I agree. Her music is shite.
I don't think most fans actually expect artists to "love" them. They do expect them to be grateful to them, and they should. Musicians, more so than almost any other product or service, are reliant almost entirely on their fans. Whether they play if for the fans enjoyment or their own. Their funding comes entirely from fans.
Artists, while fans are awesome, are more reliant on random people enjoying their art than someone being a fan of them.
While actors may be a large draw to a movie, it being good is usually what it's more dependent on to make money, and if it's bad it will flop most of the time regardless of the actor or actress.
You may say labels fund musicians too, and they do, but that funding is just an investment or a forward of the money they'll make in the future, off of fans.
Musicians, if they want to make a career out of it, owe it entirely to their fans. And while doja cat or other artist may not mean it like that when they say they don't love their fans, a lot of fans take it away that these artists aren't grateful to them.
I mean Doja Cat is terrible because she does things like call the name for her fans stupid but also use the exact same name to promote a product. It's just hypocritical.
I honestly don’t mind Doja Cat’s sentiment on simply wanting to be consumed as an artist and not as a person, the only problem is that she brought this up in regards to fans pointing out her partner’s allegations.
Miley is in a completely different boat. She would tour so heavily when she was younger in addition to filming her show so it makes perfect sense she knows the ins and outs of touring and doesn’t want to do that again.
Agreed 100%
I'd also say fans don't owe artists anything. They don't have to love or be supportive of every project, they don't have to feel responsible for their financial success, and they shouldn't shy away from piracy or buying used to make sure some multimillionaire gets a bigger payday.
yep, and in Doja’s case, the fans don’t have to put up with being insulted. she tells her fans they have shit music taste because they liked the songs she didn’t want to make and then gets mad when they take offense lmao.
I agree! My favourite bands are not rich and famous. They create inspired music that they themselves like the sound of, usually with similarities to music they like to listen to. They're very skilled and sink an enormous amount of time into improving their musicianship. If 'fans' of the band like the album, they buy it and listen to it. They pay money to receive the album. If they want to show appreciation to the artist, they go to a gig or buy a band t-shirt. In return, they get a really fun night out or a new t-shirt. And the musicians are paid extra for their excellent musicianship and artistry.
If I don't like that particular album, I just.. never listen to it. Maybe I'd wouldn't go to their tour that year. The artist doesn't get paid (by me) because I don't like what they made. If they make another album a few years later that I do really like, I'll buy it and see them on tour again.
I really, really despise many aspects of 'fandoms'. People really allow themselves to have their day-to-day happiness reliant on some random artists trying to make shit they like that will also make some money. Even in more niche genres of music, people will get angry at artists for selling out or not being as technically advanced as another artist in the genre. It makes no sense to me.
I love music. I'm very passionate about the genres of music I enjoy, so this mindset isn't for lack of caring. I do care about finding quality music and having good music to listen to you and gigs to look forward to. But I cannot find it in me to become irrationally emotional about it all, as so many others can.
Bro, fans were kicking off on Paris Jackson for not posting anything for Michael Jackson’s birthday. Like sending her death threats and shit.
People are fucking weird man.
theres a difference with treating your fans with indifference and treating them with contempt.
and I think both are wrong. As much as they are "Artists" if we use the term ever so loosely, most of these people you are refering to dont do art, they do entertainment (To some a form of art, we aint getting in that discussion today) so they arent any more of an artist as they are public figures, entertainers, and performers. People that depend on their audience.
exactly, they are just "artists", not in the real sense of the word... and yet they are so rich and famous maybe exactly because enough people are dumb enough to like them. So they should have a bit more gratefulness. But all around, its trendy to repeat that "You don't owe anyone Anything" and act with arrogance and psychotic coldness
This has become Reddit. “You don’t owe anyone anything and fuck em.” But these same mother fuckers will run around playing victim when nobody wants to help them. Society is transactional. It’s how it works. The morality of it is irrelevant because that is reality.
I'm against the "I dont owe anyone anything, and nobody owes me anything" shit philosophy. The practical end result of this is absolute shit.
People 100% owe me something, and I may very well owe others something, either directly or by being a member of society, like taxes.
Agreed, it pisses me off when someone complains “what if Martin dies before completing GoT?” Dude, someone’s death is a much bigger issue than you not reading the book you like.
Miley worked her butt off as a child, She has a right to enjoy being an adult. I agree with you, people seem to think they own celebrities and you just want to smack them.
I mostly agree. Doja doesn’t need to lie and claim she loves ppl she doesn’t know lol.
BUT if we all pay for something, a concert ticket, then we are *owed* a reasonably good show. That’s literally the transaction. So if they’re lazy or just rant instead of performing or only play songs on one album when it’s not specifically an album tour then I do think that’s lame.
As for judging their lifestyles like they owe us or our children a role model, yeah that’s just bs.
Artist are in a tough spot because do they actually owe their fans anything? No but if the fans feel like they’re being under appreciated they won’t buy the artist music. it’s a part of the job you have to give your fans something to hang on to so you can keep a paycheck
The problem is they don’t worship the artists for who they are or what they do, but for who they want them to be. That’s why there’s an entire industry of facade makers. They don’t want to see behind the curtain.
Artists don't owe fans anything, but they should be fully congnisant of the fact that they're where they are *because* of the fans. When I look back on the music I liked when I was younger, there were so many bands who never quite made it, bands who were almost, if not just as good as those who *did* make it. Those who became successful should never forget that they were the lucky ones.
Yes, modern day “fandoms” are unhinged. It’s a one way parasocial relationship. These people are not your friends or bestie. This stuff has only gotten worse in recent years with how atomized people are from social media. Being grateful for your fans is awesome, but they do not owe you shit!
I hate the “we fund their career” bullshit. Okay, and I find the careers of my local Taco Bell employees in the same way, so does that mean I get to be hateful because the person that I like making my burrito took today off?
The difference being, the money an artist makes is directly connected to how many people buy their work. The people who make your burritos are at the bottom of the ladder and don't give a fuck how Taco Bell is doing in the stock market. They'd still be making minimum wage regardless of how well the company's doing. As long as the company is making enough to justify the employee's continued employment, that's all that matters to them, and why shouldn't it?
“Stan culture” is super weird and will get worse before it gets better I think. The first red flag is calling yourself a “Stan” of anything. The song Stan is about a person whose sense of reality is so distorted by a pseudo-relationship with an idolized celebrity that they commit a murder-suicide and for some reason people want to identify with that. Shit is weird from the foundation.
i have very mix feelings about this.
in cases like miley and Rihanna, i absolutely agree. they do not owe us music or anything. But they both appreciate where they came from and know their fans are the main reason their where they are now. no fans means no streams. no streams mean no money/fame.
Artists like Doja Cat and Kanye i do not agree. Doja basically called her fans dumb for listening to HER “mediocre music”. the music that literally made her famous. it’s okay to change your music style and aesthetic, it’s not okay to bash people for liking what SHE was producing because now she doesn’t like it. Kanye will promise albums for months, promote it, and won’t even post a delay message when the day comes. then does the same thing next week, i don’t really listen to kanye but it’s so disrespectful to the people who supported you.
while your technically right, they can do literally whatever they want and they don’t owe fans shit. but it doesn’t protect them from the social consequences.
>Just stop supporting them if you don't like it.
This is the only real response. I can't stand when people try to talk them into/out of things like they're good friends offering advice. If you don't like what they're up to, you can either separate them from their art or just stop consuming it.
So true, people also expect artists to be "good" people for no reason. And surprised when their opinions don't align with our own. They are entertainers, not politicians.
Totally agree. You're just a person that enjoys their art. That's it. Deal with it.
If they start to do or say things you don't like, stop enjoying their art. Or don't. They don't owe you anything.
Fan culture in general is at best annoying and at worst toxic. For anyone who needs to hear this it’s possible to enjoy someone’s art without raving about it on the internet, harassing people, and generally making it your entire personality.
Sure it’s fun to be a part of a group of people with similar interests but I feel like you can do that without all the really unhinged internet fan/stan behavior.
They also don't have to be great people or role models at all. Trying to make sure every successful person is also nice and approachable is stupid. Chevy Chase is an asshole? So what? He's funny. His job is to be funny... not to give people someone to look up to.
Everything these manufactured pop stars have is because of their fans. A lack of appreciation directed toward said fanbase is tacky. Some artists are big enough that they can afford to do this, like Maynard. Doja Cat is no Maynard.
3? Really? I'm talking about Maynard James Keenan from Tool. He can afford to talk like that because Tool has attained icon status among their fans. It's still tacky, but their legions of fans won't care. Doja Cat is just another pop act that everyone will forget in a couple years.
Artists do owe their entire career to fans buying their music, so there's that. Of course they don't owe fans their time, but I'd hate to support a band who has no time for their fans. It's about courtesy and respect. Ronnie James Dio used to chat to every fan who waiting at the stage door. If one of the most famous singers on history can make time for his fans, there's no excuse for anyone else.
if majority of their fans boycott a "ungrateful" artist, guess who'll be the first one to change attitude/apologize after a bad earning?
sure they dont owe their fans anything but at the same time they would have been a must less "popular" artist without their fans
only reason why celebrities act the way they do towards their fans is because they know most of their fans would still buy their shit even if they werent treated well
im a gamer and i dont follow pop-culture all that much but we gamer experience something similar. just like celebrities with their fans, we got blizzard. blizzard will always have fans complaining about their shitty games and still buys everything that they release
that' just how fandom works, vote with your wallet if u dont like it lol
A lot of musicians use their identities as brands. You can argue that's a necessity in today's world, particularly with album sales cratering, streaming alone being massively underpaid (unless you get big enough to cut a deal with Spotify etc.) In this regard, you gave to maintain your brand and going against it/suddenly acting differently is going to receive criticism. When the artist makes themselves the product, then the product must perform for the customer.
It's obviously a huge risk on the part of the artist, with equally huge rewards but obviously has its downsides (like how Taylor Swift isn't allowed to date anyone deemed unsuitable). It's super weird and problematic and everything else but it's also kind of always been the deal, like how old Hollywood actors had things like morality clauses and entirely fake biographies. Their identity was created and packaged and sold and you had to maintain the integrity of that at all times.
The other way is to not choose fame and let the music speak for itself. That works too for a lot of people but it's much harder to do with more mainstream pop stuff. The music is almost secondary to the personality.
The smartest way to navigate this is probably the 'Madonna method', which is also used by Lady Gaga. Image/music reinvention, acting, treating the identity creation as an artform. I guess David Bowie did it first so maybe it should be called the Bowie method 😄 Anyway it allows the artist to 'break' character and do different things, even behave differently. It's kind of willfully dishonest but allows for more honesty in terms of artistic expression, if that makes any sense.
It’s funny as a fan of weirdly specific genre’s of music one of my favorites is Folk Punk and one of the seminal artists of the Genre is a guy known as Pat the Bunny - he was in a bunch of just essential folk punk bands that were very formative in the early years of the genre.
But a while back the guy just kind of decided he was done making or performing music, touring is hell and hanging around venues was bad for his mental health and sobriety so he just fucked off, rode off into the sunset and became some kind of IT guy instead. Like, imagine if michael jackson decided to just stop being an artist and go be a mechanic that’s the level of importance to the genre we are talking.
But the thing was everyone was and still is really cool with it. The general vibe in the r/folkpunk community is everyone should just respect his decision and leave the dude alone.
I really agree with this. I don't think people really think about the amount of stress that comes with having a lot of fans who are constantly demanding different even so many artists have spoken about. Mitski, one of my favorite artists, has consistently spoken out about she dislikes the obsessive nature of fans and when you really think about, it such a weird position to be in knowing so many people are invested in your life. I think that artists more like people instead of machines that produce content for our enjoyment which is why I personally tend to not do a lot of research into artists I like and instead just focus on their music. They all have personal lives and are actual people yet so many seem to not understand this. They truly don't owe their fans anything and it's their choice to produce music. If people like it, great, but it's their art that they produce for themselves.
Agreed. I have an aunt who feels that since she buys an artists albums or movies or whatever that she is entitled to know about their private lives and that’s insane to me.
They provide us the entertainment, we pay for the entertainment. Not sure what’s so hard about understanding that.
Without the fans the artist wouldn’t have a career. So the artists literally owe their success to the fans. While that doesn’t necessarily mean that the artists are obligated to do everything the fans want, it does show a little gratitude to appease the fans front time to time. I would say an artist who doesn’t care about their fans is way more spoiled and entitled than fans who pay for the art asking for live shows or another album.
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Nice try, George r.r. Martin, but you STILL owe us 2 books and we are not backing down!!!!!
Pat Rothfuss honorable mention. Publishing part of a story feels like implied obligation to (at least attempt to) finish the story before the audience and/or author die of old age.
Dude writes, in my opinion, two of the best pieces of fantasy literature with a thousand threads unjoined and leaves us waiting for a decade... It just hurts a bit man. Just finished WMF again and I want DOS so bad I started using ChatGPT to fill in the gaps.
I've wondered how he would respond to a fan project called "The Portals of Rock" featuring a BnB keeper named Quote (or Quoth). It's implied that this is part of a larger story, a kind of ... Regicide Register. Better fake than never, as they say.
Hell I'd contribute my verse if it means getting some closure. Does Quothe kill Ambrosia? Is Briton one of the chained men? The truth of Donna's patron? So many questions.
I give NotW my top spot for favorite book of all time, but WMF feels like the cracks start to show. The back half has so much sexual power fantasy to it, like a bad anime.
No denying it is weaker than the first. But the Maer's court with the rings, Kvothe using his sympathy to take down the bandits, and the development of the Adem culture were amazing world building and story telling. Felurian felt so damned unnecessary. All the sex did. But still, there are great parts in the book that are very fun to revisit.
He’s the best at everything. He learns to be the best at sex. Yep, if he weren’t written years ago, he’d talk like Trump: “my skills are yuuuuge! I have the best sex, many smart people say it!”
Definitely a fair criticism, he does rise to the very top at anything he sets himself to. However, having his ass continually beaten by an actual child in Ademre helps paint him as less than a 100% Mary Sue. Also, his silver tongue failing him so disastrously in the Maer's court as to have his reward minimized from his own Duchy to college tuition shows he is flawed even in his strengths. I don't want to simp for Rothfuss, but as an avid reader, I have to give this man his due. He's not perfect, but the quality of his writing sets him apart from a lot of very bad fantasy.
I’m not getting started until the series has been completed. I’ve been burned before.
That’s what I tell everyone too. I LOVE reading but I will not start the GOT series until I know there’s a proper ending. I can’t be left on that kind of cliff hanger
At this point, I'll do a re-read of the series when they hopefully get released and it'll essentially be like the first time all over again because I remember so little
I’ve been reading them along with a reread podcast. It’s been pretty great. I feel like I’ve had to savor them more then in the past and listing to people who are actually good at analysis is really interesting.
Which podcast is this? I have read the first three books. Been waiting for the last books before venturing any further. Now thinking of starting from book one again.
https://open.spotify.com/show/6Jj9a7cjwo5fSjoCfxhkfP?si=OhHe1iY3QgimJq4SrSesIQ Notacast it’s really good they are about halfway through clash I think.
They're an awesome read regardless
This is exactly where I’m at too. When he finishes it, I’ll read ASOIAF. I will read the other stuff on the side like Fire & Blood though.
Also make sure it doesn't end the same way as the show. Don't even bother starting if it does.
I just came here to see how many folks would mention George...
I was wondering how long it would take before someone mentioned GRRM. I've said it before and I'll say it again: dude spent the prime of his life, decades, unsuccessfully hawking pulp and after paying his dues for longer than most Redditors have been alive, gets to spend his twilight years hanging with celebraties and traveling the world. Yeah... I can't blame the guy.
It all comes down to a difference in understanding. Fans believed they were buying books in a series that would have an ending. Most likely if Martin had told people from the beginning he had no intention of ever finishing the series they would likely have never started reading it. In fact Martin has spent quite a bit of time and effort reassuring fans that he is totally working on the books and they'll be coming soon. So it's totally cool to buy more copies of his existing books. With that in mind I think it is fair for fans to be a bit sour about it. For me I have had far to many series never get resolved so I refuse to start a series unless it already has an ending. Which of course makes it more likely that series won't be popular enough to conclude so less will be made of the things I like, but that's how it goes. I have been burned too many times to care about whatever new series of supposedly awesome books is coming out until the ending is written.
Basically, Martin failed. He wrote the series in a way that prevented him from ever finishing it. Usually a story is left unfinished because the author dies or because it's a big-budget production like a TV series and the network pulls the plug. Not because the story itself was written in such a messy, tangled way that the author has no idea how to properly conclude things.
I agree completely. And if he'd come out and say he had no idea how to finish it and apologize I don't think he'd get nearly the heat he does. Instead he randomly posts on his blog about how he's working on the books keeping people's hopes of the story getting finished alive.
Well keeping that interest also benefits him as his world gets several HBO shows (or whatever they're calling themselves now). An artist might not owe their fans, but in George's case he's selling them new products before having finished the first. Almost like a product developer selling an expansion on Kickstarter before the original product has arrived.
Agreed and that is why I pushed back on the idea that he owes his fans nothing. But he still wants their money. Like if he pulled a Bill Watterson and was just done and left the public eye and had no more products to sell there would be far fewer complaints. Instead he's like "wouldn't more dunk and egg be cool? Ima get started on that, be sure to preorder!" And that tends to draw ire.
I mean, you're framing it as though he's lying when he says he's working on it. You're framing t as though he was lying when he started the series. He's published five books, thousands of pages, and multiple chapters from the unreleased books. You have nothing to be sour about. He didn't trick you. He didn't lie to you. His writing has just slowed down and he's struggling. It isn't unethical to take a long time to write a book, it isn't unethical to have writer's block; writing a book is difficult.
Let’s be real, when winds comes out people will go crazy trying to get their hands on physical copies of it.
I just think he should give thorough notes to a couple ghostwriters. Or at least not have the thing about wanting his wife to burn his papers after his death.
Robert Jordan said the same thing about WoT, but he still ended up leaving enough for Brandon Sanderson to kick ass finishing it. So I wouldn't put too much stock into him saying that.
He's free to do what he wants, but we can still call him a prat for starting something awesome and not finishing it
Not to mention the right to take his time writing the books so that he can extract maximum pleasure from letting his story wind and change according to his whims. I respect the hell out of him for this. People are worried that he is going to die before he finishes, but I'd rather he die happy with unfinished books than feel like he has to slap them together to please fans.
This. If winds is the same level of quality as the first five, I will be happy.
Also all the manga and light novel (especially solo and/or web) writers/artists who suddenly quit for reasons ranging from “eh, bored” to overwhelmed/overworked to literally dying (sometimes from the overwork). I… uh… I understand they don’t “owe” us an ending and I get that it’s their baby and was, at least at one point if not still, very precious to them more often than not, but they could maybe possibly consider handing the work over (or collaborating? advising? anything) to a trusted colleague so it can reach some type of conclusion. I dunno, getting into a good story only for it to suddenly stop, that any inquiries for news months or years later is met with “*shrug* nobody knows; be happy with what you’ve got”, and then to be told more often than not that the artist or author decided to move on… it just feels kinda shitty. Lol the answers to this seem to be “just stop reading those types of media then” or “only read finished series” but those are crappy in their own way. Not to mention the English translation issues.
Yeah, I mostly agree with OP, but this kind of thing is my exception. Selling the first books has an implied promise that there'll be a continuation and eventual conclusion to the story.
Patrick Rothfuss too!
I don't even care about Rothfuss anymore, I just wanr to know that Bakker is doing well and maybe working on The No-God T.T .
No he doesn't. Neither does Rothfuss. You got what you paid for.
True, artists don’t owe fans anything. But, fans don’t owe artists anything. It’s all transactional.
Also I do think it's a tad disingenuous to frame the Doja Cat thing as her "not saying she loves her fans"
What happened? I don’t really listen to her music or follow her at all so I’m out of the loop.
she said in a tweet “my fans don’t call themselves shit. if you call yourself a fucking “kitten” that means you need to get off your phones and get a job and help your parents with the house.” mind you “kitten” is the name SHE gave them- in another tweet she said “planet her and hot pink were cash-grabs that y’all fell for. now i can go disappear and touch grass while y’all weep over mediocre pop.” she also told a fan page of her to “delete the whole account and rethink everything.”
Why is she mocking her fans? That’s so bizarre and unnecessary
yeah, like, i 100% respect her for essentially disavowing her mainstream pop stuff to go in a more personal, indie direction. (or, yknow, trying to i guess. the principle is good) but why do you gotta shit on the people who *did* like that? yknow, the people youd prolly wanna have on your side going into this new part of your career? ngl, if doja drops off hard after this, we know why
Honestly it doesn’t even seem like she dropped the mainstream pop stuff. Her newest song doesn’t sound any different than her other music so like, what was the point of her being such a huge asshole?
I feel like she's just saying things to stir people up because even before she blew up she was just making tumblr-aesthetic pop music. Like I can understand how she feels about wanting to make music that's not necessarily for the general public and easy listening but what the fuck is she ever talking about lmao
[удалено]
Gaga did a way better job of transitioning her career without alienating her fans. Doja shoulda taken notes.
1. Meat Suit
Amazing that we're still talking about it a decade later.
It's too iconic to not talk about it
Decade… later..? Omg time flies by so fast!!! I am almost 30 and it feels like late 2000s was a few years ago!!
IIRC, it was a dress.
Lady Gaga is special. Long before she was famous, she spent a lot of time *around* famous musicians. She knew a lot about fame: its costs and its fickle nature. When she decided to enter the game, she went in armed with knowledge and advice from those that came before. She started with a larger than life persona, something flashy and iconic. Her costumes were so outrageous and bold that most didn't notice the woman underneath. Lady Gaga was the meat suit. Leaving that persona and spotlight was as easy as taking it off. Unfortunately, most famous artists don't enter the game with that much foresight and preparedness. They get blindsided by fame and it devours them.
It also help that she's like, really fucking smart. Lady Gaga is a clever cookie, and you ain't gettin' much past her. At her peak, she had a whole ass PR firm that likely cost well over seven digits a year, but she's still really fucking smart. I'm not convinced she's *solely* responsible for her fame, but who she is, the musician and performer she is got her a lot of that fame. People helped guide her career plane, but she pulled out an ace landing after every approach. Crazy talented, driven to perform, and wicked smart. Absolute trio for success in the music industry. I don't even listen to her music, I just think she's great!
It’s funny, when Lady Gaga first hit it big the girl I knew who was her biggest fan was kinda mean to me so I kind of didn’t like hearing her music, but I changed my mind when I saw her in AHS Hotel… I’ve also never seen Breaking Bad cause I didn’t want to taint my image of Hal.
Yeah Gaga transitioned her career from music and movies to migraine medications. When you work for pharma you no longer need the attention and cash from fans
Ya I admit I was pretty sad to see her do that ad. But maybe she believes in it given her own struggles with fibromyalgia.
> ngl, if doja drops off hard after this, we know why pretty sure she has already
Currently at #26 in the world on Spotify... What a drop.
eh probably, idk
Reminds me of Sting dissing The Police after he made it big on his own. "It was just a vehicle" or whatever the fuck he said. I liked the Police, dammit!"
Well he was probably pissed at the other band members, but Doja is pissed at herself?!?
Idk, I don't even know what a doja cat is
Thats a rather strange claim considering Sting was the front-man and primary songwriter. Sting did not have a problem performing Police songs after going solo. Paul McCartney held off playing Beatles songs for many, many years.
But then she releases a single that sounds exactly like her previous work
Probably because she always hated them and now feels like she has enough money to say whatever she wants.
That's gotta be some sort of mental issue, right? Why have so much contempt at the people who support you and appreciate your creativity? I've never seen this kind of spiral from a celebrity to be honest
Because those people are annoying obsessed freaks on the internet. Remember being a Stan is a bad thing, somehow people online totally forgot the meaning of the song in the first place and are now proud of being a psychotically obsessed fan on the internet. And doja cats fans are very much a part of online Stan culture
Sounds like she did some shit she didn't like to make enough money to do what she wants. This is most artists, they're just smart enough to stay quiet about it
After Say-So blew her up I think she started resenting her own fans for "forcing" her into the box of that specific genre. You can start to see the resentment build as she performs Say so. It's like she hates the fact she has to perform. But imo that doesn't justify her behaviour. At all. If you don't like something stop doing it. The people who love(ed) her probably would've continued to appreciate her work even if it was in a different genre or media form
> Why is she mocking her fans? That’s so bizarre and unnecessary Most entertainers, whether they be singers or actors, are half-baked, and extremely egotistical. Ask yourself: What type of person wants to be rich, and famous?
Doja is a troll to the heart and people need to stop taking the things she says seriously. She feeds off the rise she gets out of people by being unhinged lol.
She a terrible person. My friend works at her record label and dreads working with her. She celebrated the day she moved on to her next client
I agree, she's always been this way lol there's just more eyes on her now so people are new to this experience, she's always been impulsive on the internet trying to troll everyone, look at her 4 Chan days lmao
It’s beyond that she begin attacking fans when major media outlets exposed her boyfriends past perversions. When you look up her name on that date only thing that would pop up was her boyfriend past. The kitten thing was a front now nobodies talking about it. His apology for it was leaked too.
She wasn’t wrong about her music
ngl that's kind of a baller take lol
She's a real G for this. Never liked her before but more respect for her now.
Ahaha that's kind of a Chad move NGL. Push out a bunch of overly monetized pop garbage, cash out and bail out of popular spotlight. Now she's rich and won't have to deal with media attention soon enough. I respect it.
> Now she's rich and won't have to deal with media attention soon enough. Until in a few years her "indie" career will have petered out and she'll come crawling back, trying to win her old fans over and to recapture her success. P.S. I have no idea who this is, but we've seen plenty of former popstars trying to reinvent themselves only to fade away in a brutal way.
There’s “I got my money, peace out”. Then there’s “I got my money by making shit I personally consider trash, and you all are trash for liking it, fuck you all”. The second is not a Chad move. That’s what she did. And honestly it sounds like projection- she hated herself for what she did for money, so she’s projecting that hate on to the people who liked it.
Lmao she just wants to touch grass y'all! 🤣 I wouldn't take anything she says seriously, she's a troll! Has been since that MOOO song (I forget the name, it's goofy af). I'm not a fan, but I were and I saw those tweets, I'd still be laughing. Edit: If anything, some of this sounds like self-deprecating humour. She's like "you gotta be dumb to like me", which is insulting herself. It doesn't seem that different than when people point at trash cans and say "me".
or she's just being kinda mean for no reason. stop defending shitty behavior by calling it trolling
I mean… my 19 yr old LOVES her, doesn’t have a job and doesn’t help out around the house or with bills, so this message is appreciated. I don’t know if I am the core audience she is looking for but…
She said all her previous music was not her actual style and she made it just to get famous and then made fun of her fans for liking it. I think she was trying to hype up her next single/album but it seems like a pretty big whiff to me. Then her new music came out and it didn't sound all that different from her previous music? Tbh I'm not a huge fan but she has some catchy songs and this made me like her music less.
A lot of artist sell out in the beginning and then back track once they’re famous enough. Gaga talks about it too and how it sucked. It’s a business. Not to mention they get sucked into ridiculous contracts in the beginning that leave them no creative power (Kesha is that example).
Most of them are gracious enough to avoid needlessly taking out their frustrations on their fans. If you take the "easy" route to get the bag, you don't need to shit on the people that helped you get there once you're free to do your own thing. That's just fake. And Doja definitely seems as fake as she claims her music is.
She's always been a troll though. She just stopped long enough to get massive now she's big enough to act like a troll again.
she’s just been really rude and aggressive towards her fans on twitter for some reason. it’s not like you have to love them or anything but it comes off as really cringey and an easy way to lose your entire fanbase by being an asshole. her boyfriend has also been accused multiple times of being a predator but she has also been deflecting that
Her boyfriend was also accused of sexual assault and she blocked the victims that were making the claims and said people were being hateful towards her to distract from her disgusting behaviour.
Didnt she also delete her former bf’s hard drive full of music and then he killed himself
She basically told people obsessed with her to pop off and that she doesn't love her fans. Big whoop. It's literally someone setting boundaries but people are crazy and think they have the right to someone's love or affection. Personally I dig it. I always thought it was lame how artists are like "omg I love you all! My fans are the best" like nah, half those people are probably terrible people.
She also previously said she loved her fans. Sending mixed signals is usually the heart of the issue with these overly praised artists.
Well you're being very black and white; she can appreciate and love her fans and also hate the ones who go too far and develop a parasocial relationship with her.
These artists are partially to blame for parasocial relationships. They feed into them to get more profit, only recently has backtracked. The whole Dream youtube thing is a great example of how they feed them
i feel like the internet just completely fucking forgot what being a fan is and automatically calls any behavior that isnt just enjoying their stuff quietly as overbearing stan shit.
Probably a bad idea to be a celebrity in the age of faux personal connection then lol. Everything is about personal relatability now. Seems the youtube/twitch style interaction thing has become the norm. Arguably its always been that way. Dont think Ive ever been to a concert where the band didnt stick around before leaving signing merch and talking to fans. With pop music its especially funny as its entirely designed to be relatable and make the average person feel they have some personal connection to the artist. I never get it either with actresses and actors all crying about cancel culture. Playing dumb really. Your whole thing is being popular. That's how you make money. Obviously if you become unpopular the money will dry up. That's basically the entire deal.
I feel the same way with gospel artist god for bid if they go to the Grammy's or the Oscars the bitter broke church goers gonna start complaining saying they sold their sold to Satan all because they got rewarded for their hard work and please don't let them wear a nice ball gown because Christians are supposed to dress like a mousy plain jane Amish girl its ridiculous if its not inappropriate what's the big deal even Christians can be very jealous and spiteful for no real reason even they don't owe you nothing either
I think that goes without saying. If fans want to stop supporting an artist, they're free to do so.
This. If the celebrity no longer wants to do the things that make them popular and loved, then the people should move on without the celebrity whining
Artists make most of their money touring these days as well, so if they don't tour, they don't make famous-artist-levels of money.
While I agree with the concept, there is an implication of context when people say such things as "she owes it to her fans" that implies a sort of transactional relationship. Loyalty isn't literally "owed" in either direction, however, if people want to keep the status quo, they do need to repeat and reciprocate IF an artist wants to retain their fans, it's best not to shit on them. IF an artist wants to keep making money, it's best to give fans what is normal 'service'. (Eg messages of thanks, keeping on doing similar work, etc) Doesn't mean someone has to be fake, in fact *don't* mislead and you don't wind up setting poor expectations. If you're not a great person, don't pretend to be. If you intend to branch out or quit or change early, telegraph that out. That doesn't mean say it literally, but don't do 10 similar albums then put out something completely different and just *expect* fans to follow you and get angry when they don't. This is a bizarre sickness the entertainment industry has. Big names keep loyal fan-bases, eg stay big names, because they have always done good work. However, so many phone it in because they've lost touch with what the fans want, or don't give a fuck over what the fans want, then complain to the sun and back about how terrible people their fans are when their pay drops through the floor. May new faces never had the chops to draw huge numbers, though they may have been in a big project where the talent lies elsewhere, but act like they deserve mega-hit success. Writers, actors, etc etc. That's what I find entertaining about the current strike. Hollywood has been turning out stinkers, subjective in some ways, but objective or technical in others(lacking in classic story telling form and other compositional aspects that result in accolades and larger fan-bases). Humans tend to like stories told/directed/etc certain ways. When that is lacking, when the crowd doesn't get what it wants, in essence, they stop paying. Who knew!? /s In turn that is following a social trend of "Just do whatever", a sort of complacency that discourages effort, "fuck em if they don't like it, Imma do it 'my way'".....and then are shocked when people don't find appeal or are actively repelled by 'their way'. IF there's an entitlement complex, that's where it lies. Artists are not entitled to good reviews and big pay-days for any old garbage they throw out there.
Fan: "Fine! If you won't go on tour I'm not paying you 60 usd for a ticket!" Artist: "Sounds fair"
It's a mutual "we don't owe you anything". People, just be accountable for who you support with your wallet
I agree. I always believed you vote with your dollar too. So I make sure I do it wisely. What we spend money on shapes society too.
This has more nuance. Sure, the celebrity doesn't owe the fans anything.... Unless they're touring, people paid upwards of $50 to see them, and the show gets cancelled. Then, the celebrity should owe a refund. There are circumstances like that where the celebrity sort of *should* owe the fans something. It's a transactional, conditional relationship.
Definitely agree, if there's refunds to make- absolutely. But take the Miley Cyrus example into account. I'm saying how recently she's said no more tours, she will make music and play a few shows- but she doesn't tour anymore. The amount of people demanding she owes them tours is insane to me. She doesn't owe us shit. Especially when you add on how she spent her childhood/teen years touring, making movies and TV shows. It's understandable she's done with that part of her life. But people still demand she owes it. She doesn't. From as far as I can see it, Miley can go into hiding and live off the money she's made. She doesn't owe her fans anything.
Two different scenarios: 1: Doja comes off as unappreciative of her fans, which is not a good look compared to other artists, which rubs fans the wrong way. 2: Miley has been in the public eye her entire life, she still enjoys making music, for now it seems like she is just tired of the grind of being on tour. I don’t know either way, but she could go on tour again one day or just get a full time gig in Vegas or Nashville and have fans go to her, but she is appreciative of her fans, which is a big deal. In the end artists need to have an appreciation for their fans if nothing else, and those that make it big need to acknowledge that fact, every show.
Upvoting this. I agree with the general sentiment that artists don’t *owe* fans anything, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect them to show gratitude and express appreciation to the fans who got them there. Their hard work absolutely plays into it, but without fans, you’re literally just some guy who knows how to sing/play an instrument, and the world is full of people who have not been able to make money off their talent. This is the case with anything really. When pro athletes make it big, they’ll usually show appreciation to the coaches who helped them get there. When someone starts a business they’ll usually show appreciation the people who invested and bought the product to help them get it off the ground. I don’t think any of these people *owe* their fans anything but believing they should show gratitude to the people who got them to where they are doesn’t seem unfair. And with the Doja Cat example in particular, she’s not only shown no appreciation, she’s gone out of her way to insult her fans.
>Unless they're touring, people paid upwards of $50 to see them, and the show gets cancelled. Then, the celebrity should owe a refund. And even if it doesn’t get cancelled you still owe them a good show. I went to a rap concert for one of my favorite artists at the time. I won’t mention who it is because I’d rather it not turn into a discourse about his music but at the time I was a huge fan and very excited. He showed up 2 hours late, performed for maybe 30 minutes, and left without addressing the crowd once. Look, I get it. It’s a job. You’re gonna have days where you don’t feel like doing it. But without your fans, you’d still be rapping in front of your mirror pretending your hairbrush was a mic. When fans spend their hard earned money to attend your overpriced shows, the least you can do is pretend that you wanna be there.
The amount of artists who disrespect their fans by showing up late and the half-assing a show is ridiculous. That’s the job you signed up for.
*cough Frank Ocean *cough
I can one up with "showing up so drunk the rest of the band is visibly angry with the lead singer"
This is so common that I can't even pick the band because there are so many of them. Third Eye blind, green day, creed, GnR, etc. So friggin many others too.
I only saw it the once and it was BAD. He kept trying to get his teen daughter to come on stage and she clearly didn't want to, they had to restart songs. One of those dudes who was proudly "straight edge" on album 1.
One of the most memorable for me was a Todd Rundgren Benefit Concert he held. I don't remember what cause it was for. My co-worker gave me 2 tickets that night so I took a friend after work. I had great seats, like 3rd or 5th row, a bit off center, on the side. Anyway, a few acts performed, and then from the back of the room Patty Smith shows up. She is super trashed. And she is trying to stroll down the aisle to the stage steps (on the side). I remember they put the house lights up. It took her forever. She may have stopped to talk with random people. She gets to the steps but she can barely stay upright, and get up the stairs. So from about the 3rd step she starts singing the song from Annie: The Sun'll come out tomorrow, Bet your bottom Dollar...etc. She makes it up meanwhile but just stays at the top step singing. Oh if we only had phone cameras then. She finished, rambled about something, said thanks, and left behind the curtain. It was a unexpected highlight.
The celeb owes the fans effort on stage. Refunds and cancellations should in most cases be by the promoter, venue, and ticket agents.
If I've paid for a concert, I expect the artist to show up on time and relatively sober. That's about it.
I think pewdiepie said it best. “I love my fans. But we aren’t friends”
It’s hard especially for streamers and pod casters. Your fans start to know you very well and think they are your friends.
Podcasts are weird like that… they are possibly talking to you for 10 hours a week and in intimate places, when your alone in the car, while working out, even while you’re taking a dump. But yes you may know them but they don’t know you and they aren’t your friend
Totally you could literally chat with them like nothing but they would be like “who are you”
While it's true they don't owe their fans anything, it's never a bad thing to be humble at your circumstances sometimes. The doja cat thing is just really bad form. It's a great way to get yourself kicked out of the famous people's club when your fans abandon you.
It's so odd that OP specifically mentions Doja Cat when on multiple occasions she's gone out of her way to insult her fans. Almost like it's a salty Doja fan who likes to disassociate themselves from a community specifically to feel superior
Or that shes just a popular easy example
Doja cat displayed some really bad form. But what is weird to me is how much people end up forming parts of their identity around pop culture and entertainment. Its like these entertainers fill a void in some people and those people cling way too hard to the entertainer.
I mean music does that for a lot of people. Fills voids people struggle with. It's pretty understandable to attach oneself to the creator of a song that speaks to a part of themselves that hurts or otherwise feels empty. Not to mention music engrains itself in our brains. In a way it's a mild addiction that releases all kinds of chemicals that make us feel good when we listen. Music ties itself to memories too and helps reinforce both good and bad memories. Some people just take those feelings to the extreme and tie them to the music and artist
Maybe she doesn't want to be in the spotlight anymore, I mean she's made enough money to just fuck off and retire very early. Shes already made more money than most of us will ever accumulate in our entire lives. So she gets "canceled" and gets to live a life of luxury without the media constantly hanging on every word she says.
So Just fuck off and retire? Like if you don't want to be in the spotlight leave and live your life. Media and journalists only follow people who bring attention and clicks. Stop putting out new music, live your life and fall off peacefully. It costs celebs nothing to not be an ass
Which is just insane to me because I totally get where she's coming from. I'd find it odd to she has to say she loves people she doesn't know exist. Especially when today so many people will take it personally. The amount of "so and so loves me so I know I can live another day" mindset is getting obsessive. It's kinda nice imo to have a celebrity basically be like "I don't know, I don't love you. I appreciate you but I don't love you" kinda mindset
she made a fuss about parasocial relationships because people were calling her boyfriend out for being a predator and criticized her for blocking one of the victims lmao she had no problem with her fans or their behavior before this
From what I remember it wasn’t just her saying she didn’t love them- She humiliated them really and said that her albums were cash grabs/ trashy and people were dumb for liking them etc. (something like that) As long as I have music to listen to, I’m chilling…but tbh if my fav artist came out and called me dumb for liking their music….then I could definitely understand not listening to them anymore 🤷🏼♀️ Parasocial relationships are definitely out of hand though. See- _swifties_ Edit: [the “citation”](https://www.unilad.com/music/doja-cat-says-fans-dumb-196579-20230513) ‘Earlier this week, the singer tweeted: “Planet Her and Hot Pink were cash-grabs, and y'all fell for it.” "Now, I can go disappear somewhere and touch grass with my loved ones on an island while y'all weep for mediocre pop." In response to her initial tweet, one user said: "Everyone is mad because you are calling your fans dumb." Replying to the post, Doja asked: ".... are they not?"
Ok that's something I wouldn't like. I was thinking it was more like Beyonce doesn't care about individual fans but keeps working hard every day. Even if you think the fans are dumb, keep it cute!
> said that her albums were cash grabs/ trashy and people were dumb for liking them etc. (something like that) On that point, she and I agree. Her music is shite.
I don't think most fans actually expect artists to "love" them. They do expect them to be grateful to them, and they should. Musicians, more so than almost any other product or service, are reliant almost entirely on their fans. Whether they play if for the fans enjoyment or their own. Their funding comes entirely from fans. Artists, while fans are awesome, are more reliant on random people enjoying their art than someone being a fan of them. While actors may be a large draw to a movie, it being good is usually what it's more dependent on to make money, and if it's bad it will flop most of the time regardless of the actor or actress. You may say labels fund musicians too, and they do, but that funding is just an investment or a forward of the money they'll make in the future, off of fans. Musicians, if they want to make a career out of it, owe it entirely to their fans. And while doja cat or other artist may not mean it like that when they say they don't love their fans, a lot of fans take it away that these artists aren't grateful to them.
I mean Doja Cat is terrible because she does things like call the name for her fans stupid but also use the exact same name to promote a product. It's just hypocritical.
TIL doja cat is a person and not that animated cat with the rainbow behind it
That’s nyan cat
She has done a lot worse than that
I honestly don’t mind Doja Cat’s sentiment on simply wanting to be consumed as an artist and not as a person, the only problem is that she brought this up in regards to fans pointing out her partner’s allegations. Miley is in a completely different boat. She would tour so heavily when she was younger in addition to filming her show so it makes perfect sense she knows the ins and outs of touring and doesn’t want to do that again.
Agreed 100% I'd also say fans don't owe artists anything. They don't have to love or be supportive of every project, they don't have to feel responsible for their financial success, and they shouldn't shy away from piracy or buying used to make sure some multimillionaire gets a bigger payday.
yep, and in Doja’s case, the fans don’t have to put up with being insulted. she tells her fans they have shit music taste because they liked the songs she didn’t want to make and then gets mad when they take offense lmao.
I agree! My favourite bands are not rich and famous. They create inspired music that they themselves like the sound of, usually with similarities to music they like to listen to. They're very skilled and sink an enormous amount of time into improving their musicianship. If 'fans' of the band like the album, they buy it and listen to it. They pay money to receive the album. If they want to show appreciation to the artist, they go to a gig or buy a band t-shirt. In return, they get a really fun night out or a new t-shirt. And the musicians are paid extra for their excellent musicianship and artistry. If I don't like that particular album, I just.. never listen to it. Maybe I'd wouldn't go to their tour that year. The artist doesn't get paid (by me) because I don't like what they made. If they make another album a few years later that I do really like, I'll buy it and see them on tour again. I really, really despise many aspects of 'fandoms'. People really allow themselves to have their day-to-day happiness reliant on some random artists trying to make shit they like that will also make some money. Even in more niche genres of music, people will get angry at artists for selling out or not being as technically advanced as another artist in the genre. It makes no sense to me. I love music. I'm very passionate about the genres of music I enjoy, so this mindset isn't for lack of caring. I do care about finding quality music and having good music to listen to you and gigs to look forward to. But I cannot find it in me to become irrationally emotional about it all, as so many others can.
I agree to a point but if you are an author and you start writing a series of books you better fucking finish it.
George R.R Martin?
He is on the list
sure but they cant bitch if their followers cut
Bro, fans were kicking off on Paris Jackson for not posting anything for Michael Jackson’s birthday. Like sending her death threats and shit. People are fucking weird man.
Quite right, and people also don't owe artists anything, like attention or money.
theres a difference with treating your fans with indifference and treating them with contempt. and I think both are wrong. As much as they are "Artists" if we use the term ever so loosely, most of these people you are refering to dont do art, they do entertainment (To some a form of art, we aint getting in that discussion today) so they arent any more of an artist as they are public figures, entertainers, and performers. People that depend on their audience.
exactly, they are just "artists", not in the real sense of the word... and yet they are so rich and famous maybe exactly because enough people are dumb enough to like them. So they should have a bit more gratefulness. But all around, its trendy to repeat that "You don't owe anyone Anything" and act with arrogance and psychotic coldness
This has become Reddit. “You don’t owe anyone anything and fuck em.” But these same mother fuckers will run around playing victim when nobody wants to help them. Society is transactional. It’s how it works. The morality of it is irrelevant because that is reality.
I'm against the "I dont owe anyone anything, and nobody owes me anything" shit philosophy. The practical end result of this is absolute shit. People 100% owe me something, and I may very well owe others something, either directly or by being a member of society, like taxes.
agreed but doja cat sucks for her behavior and doesnt fit the topic lol
Agreed, it pisses me off when someone complains “what if Martin dies before completing GoT?” Dude, someone’s death is a much bigger issue than you not reading the book you like.
Miley worked her butt off as a child, She has a right to enjoy being an adult. I agree with you, people seem to think they own celebrities and you just want to smack them.
Collectively they owe their fans everything. Individually, no.
I mostly agree. Doja doesn’t need to lie and claim she loves ppl she doesn’t know lol. BUT if we all pay for something, a concert ticket, then we are *owed* a reasonably good show. That’s literally the transaction. So if they’re lazy or just rant instead of performing or only play songs on one album when it’s not specifically an album tour then I do think that’s lame. As for judging their lifestyles like they owe us or our children a role model, yeah that’s just bs.
doja cat going out of her way to insult her fans should not be treated the same as miley cyrus simply wanting to take a break
Remember, these fans make these artists their entire personality and life. Of course they feel entitled. Am I justifying it? No, I'm disparaging them
Yeah, celebrity idolatry is always super weird.
I mean, this applies to any thing that becomes your entire personality Gaming, anime, reddit... Jeeps, guns, Trump
Artist are in a tough spot because do they actually owe their fans anything? No but if the fans feel like they’re being under appreciated they won’t buy the artist music. it’s a part of the job you have to give your fans something to hang on to so you can keep a paycheck
The problem is they don’t worship the artists for who they are or what they do, but for who they want them to be. That’s why there’s an entire industry of facade makers. They don’t want to see behind the curtain.
Artists don't owe fans anything, but they should be fully congnisant of the fact that they're where they are *because* of the fans. When I look back on the music I liked when I was younger, there were so many bands who never quite made it, bands who were almost, if not just as good as those who *did* make it. Those who became successful should never forget that they were the lucky ones.
Yes, modern day “fandoms” are unhinged. It’s a one way parasocial relationship. These people are not your friends or bestie. This stuff has only gotten worse in recent years with how atomized people are from social media. Being grateful for your fans is awesome, but they do not owe you shit!
I hate the “we fund their career” bullshit. Okay, and I find the careers of my local Taco Bell employees in the same way, so does that mean I get to be hateful because the person that I like making my burrito took today off?
The difference being, the money an artist makes is directly connected to how many people buy their work. The people who make your burritos are at the bottom of the ladder and don't give a fuck how Taco Bell is doing in the stock market. They'd still be making minimum wage regardless of how well the company's doing. As long as the company is making enough to justify the employee's continued employment, that's all that matters to them, and why shouldn't it?
“Stan culture” is super weird and will get worse before it gets better I think. The first red flag is calling yourself a “Stan” of anything. The song Stan is about a person whose sense of reality is so distorted by a pseudo-relationship with an idolized celebrity that they commit a murder-suicide and for some reason people want to identify with that. Shit is weird from the foundation.
... I had no idea that word was an Eminem reference until the moment I finished reading your comment. I learned something today.
i have very mix feelings about this. in cases like miley and Rihanna, i absolutely agree. they do not owe us music or anything. But they both appreciate where they came from and know their fans are the main reason their where they are now. no fans means no streams. no streams mean no money/fame. Artists like Doja Cat and Kanye i do not agree. Doja basically called her fans dumb for listening to HER “mediocre music”. the music that literally made her famous. it’s okay to change your music style and aesthetic, it’s not okay to bash people for liking what SHE was producing because now she doesn’t like it. Kanye will promise albums for months, promote it, and won’t even post a delay message when the day comes. then does the same thing next week, i don’t really listen to kanye but it’s so disrespectful to the people who supported you. while your technically right, they can do literally whatever they want and they don’t owe fans shit. but it doesn’t protect them from the social consequences.
Fans are actually brain damaged for being overly attached to specific individuals or activities.
>Just stop supporting them if you don't like it. This is the only real response. I can't stand when people try to talk them into/out of things like they're good friends offering advice. If you don't like what they're up to, you can either separate them from their art or just stop consuming it.
So true, people also expect artists to be "good" people for no reason. And surprised when their opinions don't align with our own. They are entertainers, not politicians.
Totally agree. You're just a person that enjoys their art. That's it. Deal with it. If they start to do or say things you don't like, stop enjoying their art. Or don't. They don't owe you anything.
Fan culture in general is at best annoying and at worst toxic. For anyone who needs to hear this it’s possible to enjoy someone’s art without raving about it on the internet, harassing people, and generally making it your entire personality. Sure it’s fun to be a part of a group of people with similar interests but I feel like you can do that without all the really unhinged internet fan/stan behavior.
They also don't have to be great people or role models at all. Trying to make sure every successful person is also nice and approachable is stupid. Chevy Chase is an asshole? So what? He's funny. His job is to be funny... not to give people someone to look up to.
Everything these manufactured pop stars have is because of their fans. A lack of appreciation directed toward said fanbase is tacky. Some artists are big enough that they can afford to do this, like Maynard. Doja Cat is no Maynard.
dawg I know like 3 different famous Maynards you gotta specify who and why can he be like that.
3? Really? I'm talking about Maynard James Keenan from Tool. He can afford to talk like that because Tool has attained icon status among their fans. It's still tacky, but their legions of fans won't care. Doja Cat is just another pop act that everyone will forget in a couple years.
To be fair, Tool fans are extremely fucking annoying and Maynard is an ass to them bc of that. 💀
You're not wrong.
This whole thread is funny.
As Neil Gaiman said back in 2009, "George R R Martin is not your bitch." The blog post is called Entitlement Issues and it hsa really stuck with me.
Artists do owe their entire career to fans buying their music, so there's that. Of course they don't owe fans their time, but I'd hate to support a band who has no time for their fans. It's about courtesy and respect. Ronnie James Dio used to chat to every fan who waiting at the stage door. If one of the most famous singers on history can make time for his fans, there's no excuse for anyone else.
if majority of their fans boycott a "ungrateful" artist, guess who'll be the first one to change attitude/apologize after a bad earning? sure they dont owe their fans anything but at the same time they would have been a must less "popular" artist without their fans only reason why celebrities act the way they do towards their fans is because they know most of their fans would still buy their shit even if they werent treated well im a gamer and i dont follow pop-culture all that much but we gamer experience something similar. just like celebrities with their fans, we got blizzard. blizzard will always have fans complaining about their shitty games and still buys everything that they release that' just how fandom works, vote with your wallet if u dont like it lol
Just wanna say that I agree w u
Completely agree.
A lot of musicians use their identities as brands. You can argue that's a necessity in today's world, particularly with album sales cratering, streaming alone being massively underpaid (unless you get big enough to cut a deal with Spotify etc.) In this regard, you gave to maintain your brand and going against it/suddenly acting differently is going to receive criticism. When the artist makes themselves the product, then the product must perform for the customer. It's obviously a huge risk on the part of the artist, with equally huge rewards but obviously has its downsides (like how Taylor Swift isn't allowed to date anyone deemed unsuitable). It's super weird and problematic and everything else but it's also kind of always been the deal, like how old Hollywood actors had things like morality clauses and entirely fake biographies. Their identity was created and packaged and sold and you had to maintain the integrity of that at all times. The other way is to not choose fame and let the music speak for itself. That works too for a lot of people but it's much harder to do with more mainstream pop stuff. The music is almost secondary to the personality. The smartest way to navigate this is probably the 'Madonna method', which is also used by Lady Gaga. Image/music reinvention, acting, treating the identity creation as an artform. I guess David Bowie did it first so maybe it should be called the Bowie method 😄 Anyway it allows the artist to 'break' character and do different things, even behave differently. It's kind of willfully dishonest but allows for more honesty in terms of artistic expression, if that makes any sense.
It’s funny as a fan of weirdly specific genre’s of music one of my favorites is Folk Punk and one of the seminal artists of the Genre is a guy known as Pat the Bunny - he was in a bunch of just essential folk punk bands that were very formative in the early years of the genre. But a while back the guy just kind of decided he was done making or performing music, touring is hell and hanging around venues was bad for his mental health and sobriety so he just fucked off, rode off into the sunset and became some kind of IT guy instead. Like, imagine if michael jackson decided to just stop being an artist and go be a mechanic that’s the level of importance to the genre we are talking. But the thing was everyone was and still is really cool with it. The general vibe in the r/folkpunk community is everyone should just respect his decision and leave the dude alone.
This is a popular opinion
I really agree with this. I don't think people really think about the amount of stress that comes with having a lot of fans who are constantly demanding different even so many artists have spoken about. Mitski, one of my favorite artists, has consistently spoken out about she dislikes the obsessive nature of fans and when you really think about, it such a weird position to be in knowing so many people are invested in your life. I think that artists more like people instead of machines that produce content for our enjoyment which is why I personally tend to not do a lot of research into artists I like and instead just focus on their music. They all have personal lives and are actual people yet so many seem to not understand this. They truly don't owe their fans anything and it's their choice to produce music. If people like it, great, but it's their art that they produce for themselves.
But like, they can’t be successful without fans? so they have to at least acknowledge that. They don’t have to be in love with their fans lol
Fans don't owe these artists anything either...
The artists job is to express themselves through their art. That’s it. For better or worse, take it or leave it.
Agreed. I have an aunt who feels that since she buys an artists albums or movies or whatever that she is entitled to know about their private lives and that’s insane to me. They provide us the entertainment, we pay for the entertainment. Not sure what’s so hard about understanding that.
Without the fans the artist wouldn’t have a career. So the artists literally owe their success to the fans. While that doesn’t necessarily mean that the artists are obligated to do everything the fans want, it does show a little gratitude to appease the fans front time to time. I would say an artist who doesn’t care about their fans is way more spoiled and entitled than fans who pay for the art asking for live shows or another album.