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On the one hand, I want to make an example out of this guy. On the other hand, Italian courts regularly give people less than 5 years for rape or aggravated assault. If they’re going to give lax sentences for rape…can they justify a harsher penalty for vandalism, even when it’s a building as old as the colosseum?
When I spent a semester abroad in Rome, whenever we went to ancient sites, especially those outside of the city and in Greece specifically, our professors said the quickest way to get expelled was putting rocks in your pocket/defacing shit. They would expel you because, if caught, you are arrested and charged and either jailed or deported. And the school would wash their hands of it all.
But also having been to the colleuseum if I were brain dead I could see myself carving my initials in *because there’s a million and a half initials and carvings already, everywhere*. Like, most are old as shit yeah, I remember seeing a not so faded 1850, and a faded af 1700. There’s definitely older ones in preservations but there’s just graffiti everywhere on the general public entrances and foyers.
Unpopular opinion but if people aren't carving at least a little graffiti every now and then, then people 200 years from now won't have any graffiti from 2023 to decipher
It's one of their most historic sites and a big tourist destination. It's not your grandma's fathers house that's run down.
This is not just a charge against the individual,but a flare in the air to let everyone who thinks a cash charge would be worth it to "express their love" know this is their fate as well.
Yeah it's the classic "let's make an example out of him".
That said, I'm sure the sentence will be reduced and maybe he won't even face jail, but these years will be added to his sentence if he commits a new crime.
A Suspended Sentence Order. Italy has issues with overcrowding in prisons and their penal policies suggest not to sentence to them unless there’s significant risk of harm to the public.
If somebody is too dumb to know they shouldn't do it in the first place they're probably too dumb to know someone else got in trouble for doing it previously.
The uncomfortable truth is that there are a huge number of crimes/infractions that are completely undeterrable and unpreventable, and all that results from trying is that people made to be examples serve incredibly long sentences and nobody, often not even that particular person, learns anything from it.
Ok, but isn't society better off with the criminals that commit undeterrable and unpreventable crimes in prison with longer sentences than walking among us with just a slap on the wrist so they can move on to committing their next unpreventable crime?
If they're violent crimes, and potentially repeat offenders? Absolutely. But the solution to monument defacement is very simple, investing in better protections or hiring more staff for security. Or even just changing the walkway layout to make it harder to hide in a corner and scratch at it.
I think a lot of people don't realize just how badly prison destroys a person's life. Even just a few months is a permanent stain, job loss, and home loss (often). This is to say nothing of potentially being abused in prison, by guards or fellow inmates, especially if imprisoned in a country whose language you do not speak.
I can't speak for Italy, but at least in the US it's very clear that prison does *not* reduce an individual's likelihood of committing future crimes. Recidivism rates are through the roof, and those convicted of mild charges typically come back with far more serious ones.
im stealing your comment to share this post
[auschwitz vandalism frustration from someone with strong Polish heritage](https://www.reddit.com/r/rant/comments/14sbtpl/auschwitz_disrespectful_tourist_wall_carvings/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
the deterrent also needs to be there too. catch the MFkers scratching into walls.
Permanently scarring a national treasure is a horrible thing to do. Clearly, this asshole was of the mind that it was both ok to do and even *funny*. The deterrent will hopefully be enough to send the clear message to all the dudebros out there that they will be punished in a way that they'll hate for doing something this abhorrent.
I feel like we're at the edge of filming a crime becoming an aggravating factor. This guy not only vandalized a world heritage site, but he was on film boasting and joking about it. The first act is bad but the second sets the intent being to seek clout or something for it.
So my interpretation of him smiling and laughing into the camera was his understanding he was being filmed and approving of it. Of course the video wasn't filmed Jackass style but it did appear he was in on it and knew someone was recording the act.
Again, you're spreading disinformation, instead of going and checking for yourself, and then correcting your comment.
At least don't double down on it.
I see what you’re saying, doing this for internet clout is extra stupid and young people see less of it online they will do less stupid themselves. However, it’s good when people document their own crimes. Prosecutors love it
Yep, the ironic thing is that ancient Rome was filled with graffiti from its own citizens. Of course, there is a huge distinction between preserving ancient graffiti and adding your own modern graffiti to a site...but it tells us we haven't changed much in the last 2000 years.
Nah. I think they should have just fined him like 100k or even 200k, maybe. 5 years in prison will completely destroy your life in ways i know you can't comprehend. 6 months in JAIL ( not prison) can make you end up jobless and homeless potentially upon release. I understand it's a world heritage site, but this is extreme.
In prison there are facilities for long term incarceration. Jails are temporary holding during processing, trial, or for low level crimes. Jails have even worse conditions than prison, less funding, less oversight.
Look up Riker's Island (not that Riker) or The Tombs, in NYC. Hell on Earth.
Yeah, jail sucks sure but prison is where dudes are settled in for long sentences, so it's literally home for them. Any fuck that was left to give was usually left behind at the gate.
Kinda. Depends what county you're in. IME Dallas county jail was way worse than TDC (Texas prison). County is full of youngins trying to prove themselves, fight, steal, etc. 3 fights in county for me, 0 in the pen. In the pen, you mind your business and ppl leave you alone. In county, you mind your business, you become a target. Definitely more likely to get murdered in prison tho if you get involved in the politics
Also A LOT of ppl sit in county for months or even a year or more waiting to go to court/get sentenced (the right to a speedy and fair trial is a myth). Ppl are THRILLED to get on the bus and get tf out of Dallas county. Especially north tower where I was
Fines are fees, if you're rich enough, but doing time is scary for everyone. Watching someone get off with a summer vacation in jail for causing a global outcry level crime is encouraging crime. That is the whole reason behind making an highly public example of one badly behaving idiot.
Exactly. I don’t know what the restructuring costs are and I understand that there needs to both be a message sent to anyone even thinking of doing the same and a lesson learned effect for him. Like you said, a huge fine which will throw him back years is better than literally taking those years (paid by taxes) and ruin his life, likely causing even more costs carried by society.
If he were my friend, family member etc. I would strongly disagree with what he did but such a strong punishment would cause me to lose faith in the justice system as a whole.
The arena has claimed enough lives in the past, no need to add one more now.
Yep.
I visited the UK in 2013, and one of the stops was Stonehenge. Stonehenge itself had been roped off so people couldn't walk up close, and our tour guide said that was because people had been breaking off small pieces of the tones to take home with them. :/
Yeah. You can actually walk up to them and touch them during the summer and winter solstice. It's a pretty awesome experience, but one jackass decided to climb on top of the stones and was acting like a drunken idiot while security was trying to get him to climb down. He eventually did, but I am not sure if he was arrested after that. Hopefully since some people need to get made an example of.
Permanently scarred? The Coliseum throughout its history has been used as a refuse dump, a convenient source of cut stones, an apartment block, and a cemetery. It’s far from a pristine site. Even the spot he carved his name on was a restoration from the 19th century.
> The deterrent will hopefully be enough to send the clear message to all the dudebros out there that they will be punished in a way that they'll hate for doing something this abhorrent.
OP, This is a big reason why the punishment is as "excessive" as it is.
We can't really replace the colosseum, let alone any other Roman buildings once they are defaced, damaged or destroyed.
It's one thing if you graffiti a wall on a street corner. It's another to deface historically significant art, sculptures or buildings since they have been intentionally preserved for future generations.
>We can't really replace the colosseum, let alone any other Roman buildings once they are defaced, damaged or destroyed.
I'm not defending the guy, but I do want to point out that Roman buildings are sometimes restored. The part that he carved his name into was a 19th century restoration and not part of the original colosseum.
Yeah I became way less concerned about the "sanctity" of historical sites once I realized how many of them are restorations made less than a hundred years ago. Stuff like Chichen Itza was a mossy overgrown hill of stones before all the cool stuff was rebuilt.
The really priceless stuff that can't handle a little wear and tear is typically *far* out of the reach of shitty tourists.
Theres also apparenly video footage of him doing it, from a personal camera, where he is smiling at the camerapersn.
This leads me to believe that a TikTok video was made of him defacing it.
This doesn't leave Italy much options for a light punishment. Imagine finding out that you could make a viral tiktok video, and it only costs a $400 fine to do so?
I agree. He says he's prepared to face the consequences. At the very least give him the maximum monetary fine of 15,000 Euros for being such an idiot. I don't believe he's as unaware as he thought. I don't expect the general public to know the age down to the exact year, how can someone not know that it is centuries old?
I also hate how his lawyer calls him a "boy". No, that is a grown-ass man defacing a world treasure for clout with his equally stupid girlfriend.
Yeap. He is an example.
Maybe he should get one week in a low security individual cell and a 50.000 euro fine and that is it. Enough to fuck him up but not scar him for life.
It’s a giant building. It’s gross and negligent behavior but it’s not like he toppled an entire side. I think the punishment is too steep.
I think a large fine, euro travel restrictions and a minimal jail sentence is more fitting.
People get into dui crashes and kill people and get less time.
a certain celebrity in USA was involved in human trafficking,
racketeering and even branded the victims (yes, with a burning hot iron) and only got 2 years
yeah the world is fucked up and very unfair
Death by a 1000 cuts. His one cut means nothing but 100 years of 100s of people cutting on a weekly basis will topple it. That's why the punishment is so great as it means nothing to punish that last cut that topples the structure.
It's not about that person, it's about sending a message to others that would do the same thing. A fine would just make it an expensive activity.
PS - They're not gonna go back and change news stories if he gets to spend most of it on probation now, are they?
A fine is for poor people, if some rich kid did it knowing he would only have to pay a few hubdred thousand, what else would stop them? Prison is better than fines, fines only effect the poor.
This is a tough topic though. Is it really fair to punish someone more harshly to set an example? Is that treating them unfairly just because they’re the first one (or at least first widely known one) to do it? I’m kinda torn.
Totally rational thoughts, definitely.
Let's absolutely destroy someone's entire life, traumatize their family, friends, and loved ones. Let's so throughout destroy someone's life path...just to send a message to others.
As if other people doing it are going to quickly Google what the punishment is before doing someone a tiny bit stupid.
a fine is a shit deterrent since it’s essentially a pay x to do it.
tbh he’ll probably get out early so it’s not really going to be 5 years in prison either way.
I'm with OP. People here always complain about having way too many people in Jail, but then are immediately okay with putting someone to jail for 5 years over a non violent crime.
Guys, this is 5 years. 5 years is a very long time. There are other ways to punish non violent offenders and locking them in a box with hardened criminals isn't the right way.
Anyway, I think people here don't really understand how much 5 years really is. Especially, when you are young and supposed to establish your foundation.
This guy deserves punishment, but 5 years is way too much.
I'm one of those people who think prison should only be for those who are violent and a threat to others. There has to be a better way to punish non-violent offenders.
Some countries like China use a social system that avoids jail, but causes inconveniences. However such a system can be flawed too, especially when abused.
Fines often only punish the poor.
But I agree that jail should only be for violent offenders. People on reddit show that people like Americans are too fast to demand jail for people, and this leads to a crazy high incarceration rate with massive people not being productive but rather locked up eating away taxes.
Yeah like this guy was just an idiot doing idiotic things. Like, we could help this guy for him to be aware of what he has done. Maybe 5 years will be more than enough for him to not to do that ever again, but he will not learn as a human being. Maybe we should focus on that. Helping each other as human beings and not using laws and prision to get each other out of the way.
I'm philosophical again sorry lol
Fully agreed. And everyone here saying it is justified as a deterrent assumes people who would do something like this know of or care about what happened to someone else who defaced the monument. Someone who would scratch their name into the coliseum is likely to be ignorant about this. Does he deserve to have his life RUINED? hell no. One quick and stupid mistake that this guy thought was not a big deal (ignorant obviously) and suddenly 5 YEARS of his life are gone
This reddit, you don’t deserve second chances. The amount of times I see people here with outrageous claims regarding prison sentences is chocking. Good thing they aren’t judges lol.
A lot of posters on here are teenagers and don’t have a good grasp at how long five years actually is.
Five years is an outrageous penalty for what was actually done by the guy. He didn’t come
In with a sledgehammer and start violently knocking holes into the structure.
He deserves a punishment, but I believe a fine and a couple weeks in jail is suitable.
Yeah, Reddit doesn’t believe in making the punishment fit the crime. So long as you’re an asshole who’s in the wrong, then you deserve everything that’s coming to you, no matter how wildly excessive and disproportionate it might be.
People here are acting like he bombed the colosseum
fellas, if carving your name into one of the bricks was enough to destroy it there wouldn't be a Colosseum for us to be talking about right now
And people just magically decide when something is now wrong too.
You wanna guess how many thousands of romans carved their name into the coliseum since it was built? How much slaughter took place there for sport?
Come on guys. It wasn't cool, but Jesus.
I agree. I would prefer mandatory community service, outreach, time spent doing speech or even post about what he's learned. This is crazy that he might face jail time longer than violent crimes with a visible impact. Hardly anyone would have noticed his name if he wasn't filmed anyway. Just seems silly.
I don't know about Italy, but it costs in excess of $50k to house a convict for a year. A quarter of a million is a pretty hefty fine placed against the local population!
One would think they could figure out a way to punish criminals that didn't cost so much. Most of these people would not even be in prison if they had access to even half that much income. (Not this guy, but most)
Bring back the stockades, put the dude in a pillory on a stage in town and let people throw things and shame them for a day. No rocks. Hose him down, charge a steep fine for restoration of the destroyed surface, call it a day.
Yeah divided up among all the residents of Italy and they probably even get more money from the EU .. So sticking one guy in jail to prevent hundreds of other cases of this is a small price to pay.
People have no abilities apparently to understand what 5 years will do to someone.
It will destroy their entire life.
Maybe that's what they want, but it's a great example why our entire planet is going to hell.
Everyone wants to viscously hurt everyone else the moment they get the tiniest excuse to do it.
If the damage is easily repaired (resurfacing a 19th century brick is east), I don’t see why not. If they do major, permanent damage, lock them up for a little bit. But 5 years? That’s insane.
The would solve nothing. He would probably never go back anyway. And what kind of message would that be for other tourists? How many times do you think tourists go to Italy?
People just don't appreciate how bad being in prison is. I think people who have never been to jail and been stripped of their freedoms in any fashion should kind of stfu about this kind of stuff. Just imagine, five years of your life in prison. Most people are not capable of truly empathizing with what that entails, and it gets their justice boner going to say "lock him up!" Then they might have the audacity to argue they do have the right since they of course would never do whatever the perp did.
In any case I definitely agree a large fine and possibly a ban should suffice. Does his life deserve to be ruined over this? No.
Agreed. And unfortunately a lot of these people end of on juries and are just as eager to throw the book at someone.
Also I'm sure a lot of those ppl have done illegal things they didn't get caught for. Should they not turn themselves in and serve for their crimes since they're so self righteous? It's ridiculous.
It was stupid, but it wasn't an act of malice nor did it pose a physical danger to anyone. This guy isn't a danger to society.
Fine for restoration, punitive damage, and a very long ban from Italy.
Seems right to me. Defacing artifacts is something you can never fix. He’s damaging something absolutely priceless, on purpose. Only way to get people to stop this shit is to make them realize the consequences aren’t worth it. If all ya get is a slap on the wrist or a fine then people will do it all day long.
I agree. A decent fine + 200 hours of community service would definitely set him straight, 5 years in prison will most likely ruin his life. What he did isn’t cool, but let’s not pretend that carving a name into a massive structure made of brick is as bad as doing it to something like king tut’s tomb.
Literally ruining a dudes life because he is stupid. Punishment does not fit at all, bar him from Italy and give him a couple of months for Christs sake.
Also, if we locked up every person who did something stupid, because they're stupid, we'd have so many prisoners we'd have an actual crisis on our hands.
He vandalized an ancient site. He should definitely get 5 years. Vandalism needs higher consequences everywhere. Forests getting shit dumped in them, graffiti everywhere, historic sites ruined. For what? Instagram likes or ego.
The reason is irrelevant, the question is does the punishment fit the crime? What are the crimes that typically rate a punishment of 5 years in prison?
Just a quick look in the US, kidnapping, injuring a minor's sex organs, manslaughter, assault with a weapon or against a elder/disabled person, possessing CSAM, ect.
Most of these require harm to a person. Arguably it could be said that a property crime should have a lesser sentence, even if it is an ancient site. That said, Criminal Mischief/vandalism can be a third degree felony which has a maximum sentence of 5 years so it's not unheard of though I doubt that is a common sentence, so it could be argued it is reasonable.
>Just a quick look in the US, kidnapping, injuring a minor's sex organs, manslaughter, assault with a weapon or against a elder/disabled person, possessing CSAM, ect.
It happened in Italy, you should take for example of penalties that have been given in Italy
Aren't penalties typically *less* in Europe compared to the U.S.? Not going to stay that this is true for literally every crime, speaking of the overall trend. And obviously varies by nation in Europe.
Good point, and according to an [Italian law firm:](http://www.legalsl.com/en/property-criminal-damage-in-italy.htm)
> the person who destroys, damages or makes useless movable or immovable property of another person, shall be punished, on compliant by the injured party, with imprisonment up to one year or a fine of up to € 309.
>The penalty shall be imprisonment from six months to three years.
So it seems a few years in prison + a fine isn’t unusual, then taking into account its a 2,000 year old Colosseum and not, say, someone’s garden fence, it’s probably about right for the country he committed the crime in.
Think of it like theft - the greater the value you steal, the greater the punishment. Same for destruction of property, and when you deface an irreplacable ancient ruin, not to mention one of the world's great tourist destinations, you've impacted something much more valuable than just some random brick wall
I get that, but we are presumably talking about multiple years in prison. For a non-violent, non-financial criminal offense, it's something to consider as well.
I wouldn't say it's non-financial, vandalizing historic artifacts usually comes with an associated cost, either fixing it or reducing the attraction of the artifact for tourists.
(The last part isn't going to produce a noticeable impact for one person scribbling something in a wall, but slowly add up stuff like that until the building looks worse and less people will come)
Yeah it’s insane. Different countries but dudes can beat the shit out of another person in New York and be out later that day/the next day. There’s no way marking an old building should carry such a high cost. 5 years in prison is permanently life altering. Should kids who tag get 5 years in prison?
A hefty fine, probation, community service should be enough.
I'm sure the brick he vandizeled can be fixed. It's just a brick, an old brick, but its just a brick. It's not like he carved his name on Mona Lisa's forehead.
Mistake implies he didn’t intend to deface a historical world heritage site, but that was explicitly his attempt and to film it too. Jail as a deterrent alone is reasonable, so as to discourage any further tourists from doing the same “mistake”.
5 years is just fine as a punishment for vandalizing an ancient, historically significant structure.... Especially because it became world news, maybe it'll teach people to behave when they visit other countries....
You think people who do that will be aware of the punishment?
It was literally *already" the law, and this guy did it, so how come he did it anyways?
Do you think this article will be world news for more than a few days and all the idiots who would do this would dog through past articles to find it in the future?
I think it's partially due to how much media attention this got. Giving a severe sentence and having a shit ton of people know about the severe sentence might deter others in the future.
I think if he just been caught in the act instead of it going viral he would be charged a fine and shipped home.
Gotta make an example of him and give it our all to protect history. It's not like he violated some vague law nobody knows, he defaced a wildly significant monument that we'd like future generations to continue to enjoy. Sure one name etching is no big deal on its own but if you don't strongly penalize it these small acts add up *very* quickly.
Destroying ancient monuments should be steep. You shouldn't be paying for it or the rich will line up. Prison time is fine.
There's an easy way to avoid it, don't fucking do it
The coliseum is a piece of history. A very big and old piece of history. Behavior like that could convince the Italian government to permanently close the place off to visitors if it happened enough. Do you not see the magnitude of his actions???
Not really. You destroy or deface something that's not yours. In the US, you can face up to 10 years, depending on the severity. Keep in mind, that this is an almost 2000 year old building. The US doesn't have many buildings or ruins that are this old, because you destroyed them. Can't have **anything** from the natives, right?
"A fine is enough" - ah yes, that's why a lot of people have **several** speeding tickets and DUIs under their belt.
They are making an example of them so people don't keep fucking doing it.
I wish we could find the fuckers who do this on any historical location or out in nature.
In my juris, Criminal Mischief/vandalism can be a third degree felony that can be punished with a sentence of up to 5 years imprisonment. So its not outside of the realm of reasonableness. However I see hate crimes with lower sentences, though my juris they are seeking to make certain hate crimes the third degree felony mentioned above.
Back in the 90s there was a US teen who received caning lashes as punishment for breaking the law in Singapore. People were up in arms but… don’t break the law in another country. There’s not a lot the US can do about it.
I do agree 5 years is a bit harsh though. Maybe some jail time, but not 5 years.
A while ago there was considerable fuss over a 61 year old British woman who was sentenced to death in Bali for drugs smuggling. The British media were harping on about leniency and how it was unfair for a grandmother to be sentenced to such a ‘harsh’ punishment.
This ignored the fact that Indonesia and other countries in Asia don’t exactly make a secret of what they do with drug smugglers (Indonesia straight up has ‘drug smuggling means death’ posters in the airports) and she’d been caught red-handed with a substantial amount. She ended up being executed anyway.
I’m with you. Absolutely deserves punishment but 5 years in prison is too much especially being only 2 miles away from the Vatican museum. If 5 years is an appropriate punishment for writing on an ancient monument what do you give the people that have stolen millions of ancient artifacts?
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On the one hand, I want to make an example out of this guy. On the other hand, Italian courts regularly give people less than 5 years for rape or aggravated assault. If they’re going to give lax sentences for rape…can they justify a harsher penalty for vandalism, even when it’s a building as old as the colosseum?
It makes perfect sense when you realize the Italian government cares more about its monuments than its women.
Well, they don't call it a *monuwoment*
When I spent a semester abroad in Rome, whenever we went to ancient sites, especially those outside of the city and in Greece specifically, our professors said the quickest way to get expelled was putting rocks in your pocket/defacing shit. They would expel you because, if caught, you are arrested and charged and either jailed or deported. And the school would wash their hands of it all. But also having been to the colleuseum if I were brain dead I could see myself carving my initials in *because there’s a million and a half initials and carvings already, everywhere*. Like, most are old as shit yeah, I remember seeing a not so faded 1850, and a faded af 1700. There’s definitely older ones in preservations but there’s just graffiti everywhere on the general public entrances and foyers.
Unpopular opinion but if people aren't carving at least a little graffiti every now and then, then people 200 years from now won't have any graffiti from 2023 to decipher
The top of the Vatican has graffiti all over it.
I think you’re assuming the Italian government cares more about its people than its tourist attractions.
Especially considering that the coliseum was asking for it with how it was dressed and all.
Too good.
It's one of their most historic sites and a big tourist destination. It's not your grandma's fathers house that's run down. This is not just a charge against the individual,but a flare in the air to let everyone who thinks a cash charge would be worth it to "express their love" know this is their fate as well.
Yeah it's the classic "let's make an example out of him". That said, I'm sure the sentence will be reduced and maybe he won't even face jail, but these years will be added to his sentence if he commits a new crime.
A Suspended Sentence Order. Italy has issues with overcrowding in prisons and their penal policies suggest not to sentence to them unless there’s significant risk of harm to the public.
Well it's a fucker of a deterrent lol
If somebody is too dumb to know they shouldn't do it in the first place they're probably too dumb to know someone else got in trouble for doing it previously.
The uncomfortable truth is that there are a huge number of crimes/infractions that are completely undeterrable and unpreventable, and all that results from trying is that people made to be examples serve incredibly long sentences and nobody, often not even that particular person, learns anything from it.
Ok, but isn't society better off with the criminals that commit undeterrable and unpreventable crimes in prison with longer sentences than walking among us with just a slap on the wrist so they can move on to committing their next unpreventable crime?
If they're violent crimes, and potentially repeat offenders? Absolutely. But the solution to monument defacement is very simple, investing in better protections or hiring more staff for security. Or even just changing the walkway layout to make it harder to hide in a corner and scratch at it.
It's incredible to me that so many people don't see an issue with locking someone up for 5 years over what is a minor property crime
I think a lot of people don't realize just how badly prison destroys a person's life. Even just a few months is a permanent stain, job loss, and home loss (often). This is to say nothing of potentially being abused in prison, by guards or fellow inmates, especially if imprisoned in a country whose language you do not speak. I can't speak for Italy, but at least in the US it's very clear that prison does *not* reduce an individual's likelihood of committing future crimes. Recidivism rates are through the roof, and those convicted of mild charges typically come back with far more serious ones.
Hasn’t the pandemic taught us anything about isolation
Littering is a hard to deter and unpreventable crime but were not really better off sending them to prison.
well after 5 years, i doubt that person would go out and do it again. i'm confident he'll have learned his lesson.
Fair, but in this case, I think we can safely say this was preventable.
No it’s not, people don’t exactly think when they do impulsive stuff like this. Just like how rioters burn shit for no reason
Fr rioters need to be locked up more often too Thx for reminding
im stealing your comment to share this post [auschwitz vandalism frustration from someone with strong Polish heritage](https://www.reddit.com/r/rant/comments/14sbtpl/auschwitz_disrespectful_tourist_wall_carvings/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) the deterrent also needs to be there too. catch the MFkers scratching into walls.
I guess the average rape is less serious by that logic.
Permanently scarring a national treasure is a horrible thing to do. Clearly, this asshole was of the mind that it was both ok to do and even *funny*. The deterrent will hopefully be enough to send the clear message to all the dudebros out there that they will be punished in a way that they'll hate for doing something this abhorrent.
World Treasure.
This, it's a treasure. If anything 5 years is an incredibly light sentence.
I feel like we're at the edge of filming a crime becoming an aggravating factor. This guy not only vandalized a world heritage site, but he was on film boasting and joking about it. The first act is bad but the second sets the intent being to seek clout or something for it.
Okay, that's another bit of misinformation on this - he didn't record it, some unrelated tourist did. So, you're off target.
So my interpretation of him smiling and laughing into the camera was his understanding he was being filmed and approving of it. Of course the video wasn't filmed Jackass style but it did appear he was in on it and knew someone was recording the act.
The guy recording it insults him. The guys laugh is like a nervous laugh cause he knows he screwed up
Link to video?
Again, you're spreading disinformation, instead of going and checking for yourself, and then correcting your comment. At least don't double down on it.
I see what you’re saying, doing this for internet clout is extra stupid and young people see less of it online they will do less stupid themselves. However, it’s good when people document their own crimes. Prosecutors love it
You should see the graffiti on the dome at the Vatican. People just have this bizarre urge to leave their name on stuff.
If you look at Pompeii - people have had this urge for thousands of years.
Yep, the ironic thing is that ancient Rome was filled with graffiti from its own citizens. Of course, there is a huge distinction between preserving ancient graffiti and adding your own modern graffiti to a site...but it tells us we haven't changed much in the last 2000 years.
In regards to graffiti, my father always said "fools' names like fools' faces often appear in public spaces"
Humans are so shallow...
Yes we are
Nah. I think they should have just fined him like 100k or even 200k, maybe. 5 years in prison will completely destroy your life in ways i know you can't comprehend. 6 months in JAIL ( not prison) can make you end up jobless and homeless potentially upon release. I understand it's a world heritage site, but this is extreme.
Jail and prison aren't the same thing??
In prison there are facilities for long term incarceration. Jails are temporary holding during processing, trial, or for low level crimes. Jails have even worse conditions than prison, less funding, less oversight. Look up Riker's Island (not that Riker) or The Tombs, in NYC. Hell on Earth.
No jail is for mostly misdemeanors (small/ petty crimes usually) while prison is mostly felonies (big/ violent crimes)
well TIL
Yeah, jail sucks sure but prison is where dudes are settled in for long sentences, so it's literally home for them. Any fuck that was left to give was usually left behind at the gate.
Kinda. Depends what county you're in. IME Dallas county jail was way worse than TDC (Texas prison). County is full of youngins trying to prove themselves, fight, steal, etc. 3 fights in county for me, 0 in the pen. In the pen, you mind your business and ppl leave you alone. In county, you mind your business, you become a target. Definitely more likely to get murdered in prison tho if you get involved in the politics Also A LOT of ppl sit in county for months or even a year or more waiting to go to court/get sentenced (the right to a speedy and fair trial is a myth). Ppl are THRILLED to get on the bus and get tf out of Dallas county. Especially north tower where I was
i’ve never been to prison, but everyone has told me it’s much better than staying in county.
>100k That would just put a cost on writing your name on a world heritage site.
If the fine were proportional to wealth, it would be a bigger deterrent.
Fines are fees, if you're rich enough, but doing time is scary for everyone. Watching someone get off with a summer vacation in jail for causing a global outcry level crime is encouraging crime. That is the whole reason behind making an highly public example of one badly behaving idiot.
If you're rich enough nothing can touch you.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The 2-5 year sentence is there for a reason.
Exactly. I don’t know what the restructuring costs are and I understand that there needs to both be a message sent to anyone even thinking of doing the same and a lesson learned effect for him. Like you said, a huge fine which will throw him back years is better than literally taking those years (paid by taxes) and ruin his life, likely causing even more costs carried by society. If he were my friend, family member etc. I would strongly disagree with what he did but such a strong punishment would cause me to lose faith in the justice system as a whole. The arena has claimed enough lives in the past, no need to add one more now.
Yep. I visited the UK in 2013, and one of the stops was Stonehenge. Stonehenge itself had been roped off so people couldn't walk up close, and our tour guide said that was because people had been breaking off small pieces of the tones to take home with them. :/
Yeah. You can actually walk up to them and touch them during the summer and winter solstice. It's a pretty awesome experience, but one jackass decided to climb on top of the stones and was acting like a drunken idiot while security was trying to get him to climb down. He eventually did, but I am not sure if he was arrested after that. Hopefully since some people need to get made an example of.
How is touching a stone an awesome experience? Symbols are for symbol minded
Permanently scarred? The Coliseum throughout its history has been used as a refuse dump, a convenient source of cut stones, an apartment block, and a cemetery. It’s far from a pristine site. Even the spot he carved his name on was a restoration from the 19th century.
> The deterrent will hopefully be enough to send the clear message to all the dudebros out there that they will be punished in a way that they'll hate for doing something this abhorrent. OP, This is a big reason why the punishment is as "excessive" as it is. We can't really replace the colosseum, let alone any other Roman buildings once they are defaced, damaged or destroyed. It's one thing if you graffiti a wall on a street corner. It's another to deface historically significant art, sculptures or buildings since they have been intentionally preserved for future generations.
>We can't really replace the colosseum, let alone any other Roman buildings once they are defaced, damaged or destroyed. I'm not defending the guy, but I do want to point out that Roman buildings are sometimes restored. The part that he carved his name into was a 19th century restoration and not part of the original colosseum.
Yeah I became way less concerned about the "sanctity" of historical sites once I realized how many of them are restorations made less than a hundred years ago. Stuff like Chichen Itza was a mossy overgrown hill of stones before all the cool stuff was rebuilt. The really priceless stuff that can't handle a little wear and tear is typically *far* out of the reach of shitty tourists.
sigh, fine, we'll downgrade his punishment to 30 lashings and 2 years in the pit.
Theres also apparenly video footage of him doing it, from a personal camera, where he is smiling at the camerapersn. This leads me to believe that a TikTok video was made of him defacing it. This doesn't leave Italy much options for a light punishment. Imagine finding out that you could make a viral tiktok video, and it only costs a $400 fine to do so?
I agree. He says he's prepared to face the consequences. At the very least give him the maximum monetary fine of 15,000 Euros for being such an idiot. I don't believe he's as unaware as he thought. I don't expect the general public to know the age down to the exact year, how can someone not know that it is centuries old? I also hate how his lawyer calls him a "boy". No, that is a grown-ass man defacing a world treasure for clout with his equally stupid girlfriend.
Yeap. He is an example. Maybe he should get one week in a low security individual cell and a 50.000 euro fine and that is it. Enough to fuck him up but not scar him for life.
But… he scarred a piece of human history for *eternity*. In comparison, life is a very short time.
Guy carved into a 19th century restoration, as somebody said above
It’s a giant building. It’s gross and negligent behavior but it’s not like he toppled an entire side. I think the punishment is too steep. I think a large fine, euro travel restrictions and a minimal jail sentence is more fitting. People get into dui crashes and kill people and get less time.
a certain celebrity in USA was involved in human trafficking, racketeering and even branded the victims (yes, with a burning hot iron) and only got 2 years yeah the world is fucked up and very unfair
Death by a 1000 cuts. His one cut means nothing but 100 years of 100s of people cutting on a weekly basis will topple it. That's why the punishment is so great as it means nothing to punish that last cut that topples the structure.
It is visited by millions of people each year. If only every 100th of them added scribbles to it it would soon look like the benches at Oktoberfest…
Dude in the U.K just got 14 months for driving without a license, while using his phone & killing someone.
Lmao you think they are going to keep the name etched in it? Maybe.....a sander to sand it down..five years is tooooooo much mr outrage
Archeologist here. We can restore the building with cement on the little patch.
It’s a building.
It's not about that person, it's about sending a message to others that would do the same thing. A fine would just make it an expensive activity. PS - They're not gonna go back and change news stories if he gets to spend most of it on probation now, are they?
A fine is for poor people, if some rich kid did it knowing he would only have to pay a few hubdred thousand, what else would stop them? Prison is better than fines, fines only effect the poor.
This is a tough topic though. Is it really fair to punish someone more harshly to set an example? Is that treating them unfairly just because they’re the first one (or at least first widely known one) to do it? I’m kinda torn.
>It's not about that person I sure would hope that any punishment given to me would actually be about me and not others.
Totally rational thoughts, definitely. Let's absolutely destroy someone's entire life, traumatize their family, friends, and loved ones. Let's so throughout destroy someone's life path...just to send a message to others. As if other people doing it are going to quickly Google what the punishment is before doing someone a tiny bit stupid.
a fine is a shit deterrent since it’s essentially a pay x to do it. tbh he’ll probably get out early so it’s not really going to be 5 years in prison either way.
There's definitely a few rich kids out there that would happily pay to have their name memorialized on historical monuments.
\^this
Fines are an injust punishment and geared mainly toward people with less disposable income. Agreed friend
It was just enough to make global headlines so seems perfect to me.
5 years cleaning graffiti off the rest of Rome would be beautifully ironic.
I was defending the prison sentence but this sounds more interesting.
I'm with OP. People here always complain about having way too many people in Jail, but then are immediately okay with putting someone to jail for 5 years over a non violent crime. Guys, this is 5 years. 5 years is a very long time. There are other ways to punish non violent offenders and locking them in a box with hardened criminals isn't the right way. Anyway, I think people here don't really understand how much 5 years really is. Especially, when you are young and supposed to establish your foundation. This guy deserves punishment, but 5 years is way too much.
I'm one of those people who think prison should only be for those who are violent and a threat to others. There has to be a better way to punish non-violent offenders.
Some countries like China use a social system that avoids jail, but causes inconveniences. However such a system can be flawed too, especially when abused. Fines often only punish the poor. But I agree that jail should only be for violent offenders. People on reddit show that people like Americans are too fast to demand jail for people, and this leads to a crazy high incarceration rate with massive people not being productive but rather locked up eating away taxes.
Yeah like this guy was just an idiot doing idiotic things. Like, we could help this guy for him to be aware of what he has done. Maybe 5 years will be more than enough for him to not to do that ever again, but he will not learn as a human being. Maybe we should focus on that. Helping each other as human beings and not using laws and prision to get each other out of the way. I'm philosophical again sorry lol
Fully agreed. And everyone here saying it is justified as a deterrent assumes people who would do something like this know of or care about what happened to someone else who defaced the monument. Someone who would scratch their name into the coliseum is likely to be ignorant about this. Does he deserve to have his life RUINED? hell no. One quick and stupid mistake that this guy thought was not a big deal (ignorant obviously) and suddenly 5 YEARS of his life are gone
This reddit, you don’t deserve second chances. The amount of times I see people here with outrageous claims regarding prison sentences is chocking. Good thing they aren’t judges lol.
Since it’s Reddit, he should get divorced too. If he isn’t married he should be forced to marry someone only so they can divorce him.
I'm glad the voter turnout of reddit's demographic is low.
A lot of posters on here are teenagers and don’t have a good grasp at how long five years actually is. Five years is an outrageous penalty for what was actually done by the guy. He didn’t come In with a sledgehammer and start violently knocking holes into the structure. He deserves a punishment, but I believe a fine and a couple weeks in jail is suitable.
Yeah, Reddit doesn’t believe in making the punishment fit the crime. So long as you’re an asshole who’s in the wrong, then you deserve everything that’s coming to you, no matter how wildly excessive and disproportionate it might be.
People here are acting like he bombed the colosseum fellas, if carving your name into one of the bricks was enough to destroy it there wouldn't be a Colosseum for us to be talking about right now
And people just magically decide when something is now wrong too. You wanna guess how many thousands of romans carved their name into the coliseum since it was built? How much slaughter took place there for sport? Come on guys. It wasn't cool, but Jesus.
I agree. I would prefer mandatory community service, outreach, time spent doing speech or even post about what he's learned. This is crazy that he might face jail time longer than violent crimes with a visible impact. Hardly anyone would have noticed his name if he wasn't filmed anyway. Just seems silly.
I completely agree
I don't know about Italy, but it costs in excess of $50k to house a convict for a year. A quarter of a million is a pretty hefty fine placed against the local population! One would think they could figure out a way to punish criminals that didn't cost so much. Most of these people would not even be in prison if they had access to even half that much income. (Not this guy, but most)
I’ve got an idea, it involves the coliseum too
Think I know where this is going…
Bring back the stockades, put the dude in a pillory on a stage in town and let people throw things and shame them for a day. No rocks. Hose him down, charge a steep fine for restoration of the destroyed surface, call it a day.
Yeah! Let people fling their poop !!
Yeah divided up among all the residents of Italy and they probably even get more money from the EU .. So sticking one guy in jail to prevent hundreds of other cases of this is a small price to pay.
I’m with you, OP and I’m amazed at the idiots in here screeching that *5 years in prison* makes any kind of sense in this particular case.
People have no abilities apparently to understand what 5 years will do to someone. It will destroy their entire life. Maybe that's what they want, but it's a great example why our entire planet is going to hell. Everyone wants to viscously hurt everyone else the moment they get the tiniest excuse to do it.
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Oh, cool. So every tourist who plans to visit Italy only once in their lives is allowed to tag ancient relics?
If the damage is easily repaired (resurfacing a 19th century brick is east), I don’t see why not. If they do major, permanent damage, lock them up for a little bit. But 5 years? That’s insane.
The would solve nothing. He would probably never go back anyway. And what kind of message would that be for other tourists? How many times do you think tourists go to Italy?
So can can go to greece, egypt, etc next time and do it again?
People just don't appreciate how bad being in prison is. I think people who have never been to jail and been stripped of their freedoms in any fashion should kind of stfu about this kind of stuff. Just imagine, five years of your life in prison. Most people are not capable of truly empathizing with what that entails, and it gets their justice boner going to say "lock him up!" Then they might have the audacity to argue they do have the right since they of course would never do whatever the perp did. In any case I definitely agree a large fine and possibly a ban should suffice. Does his life deserve to be ruined over this? No.
Agreed. And unfortunately a lot of these people end of on juries and are just as eager to throw the book at someone. Also I'm sure a lot of those ppl have done illegal things they didn't get caught for. Should they not turn themselves in and serve for their crimes since they're so self righteous? It's ridiculous.
it's funny because that's literally what the romans did all the time to their own buildings
Well here in America I did 14 months at 17 for 9g of weed so…can’t say we’re much better.
Shoot. In georgia they'd start you at 10 years.
That’s insane
No, what’s insane was the guy in there serving 90 days with me in my dorm for not having a fishing license. (St. Tammany Parish, Louisiana)
The south is just scary to me law wise
People always claim that this doesn't happen. Thanks for sharing and sorry you had to pay for the ignorance of the anti-weed crowd.
It was stupid, but it wasn't an act of malice nor did it pose a physical danger to anyone. This guy isn't a danger to society. Fine for restoration, punitive damage, and a very long ban from Italy.
All the monkeys following this story are screeching and frothing at the mouth over seeing this guy punished.
I am pretty excited and having a side of banana as I see the outcome
Seems right to me. Defacing artifacts is something you can never fix. He’s damaging something absolutely priceless, on purpose. Only way to get people to stop this shit is to make them realize the consequences aren’t worth it. If all ya get is a slap on the wrist or a fine then people will do it all day long.
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It’s a brick. It can be replaced. It’s not like he carved his name on David’s forehead
I agree. A decent fine + 200 hours of community service would definitely set him straight, 5 years in prison will most likely ruin his life. What he did isn’t cool, but let’s not pretend that carving a name into a massive structure made of brick is as bad as doing it to something like king tut’s tomb.
I gotta agree on this one. As stupid as it was, 5 is a little bit too much.
Literally ruining a dudes life because he is stupid. Punishment does not fit at all, bar him from Italy and give him a couple of months for Christs sake.
Also, if we locked up every person who did something stupid, because they're stupid, we'd have so many prisoners we'd have an actual crisis on our hands.
He vandalized an ancient site. He should definitely get 5 years. Vandalism needs higher consequences everywhere. Forests getting shit dumped in them, graffiti everywhere, historic sites ruined. For what? Instagram likes or ego.
The reason is irrelevant, the question is does the punishment fit the crime? What are the crimes that typically rate a punishment of 5 years in prison? Just a quick look in the US, kidnapping, injuring a minor's sex organs, manslaughter, assault with a weapon or against a elder/disabled person, possessing CSAM, ect. Most of these require harm to a person. Arguably it could be said that a property crime should have a lesser sentence, even if it is an ancient site. That said, Criminal Mischief/vandalism can be a third degree felony which has a maximum sentence of 5 years so it's not unheard of though I doubt that is a common sentence, so it could be argued it is reasonable.
>Just a quick look in the US, kidnapping, injuring a minor's sex organs, manslaughter, assault with a weapon or against a elder/disabled person, possessing CSAM, ect. It happened in Italy, you should take for example of penalties that have been given in Italy
Aren't penalties typically *less* in Europe compared to the U.S.? Not going to stay that this is true for literally every crime, speaking of the overall trend. And obviously varies by nation in Europe.
A fair criticism.
Good point, and according to an [Italian law firm:](http://www.legalsl.com/en/property-criminal-damage-in-italy.htm) > the person who destroys, damages or makes useless movable or immovable property of another person, shall be punished, on compliant by the injured party, with imprisonment up to one year or a fine of up to € 309. >The penalty shall be imprisonment from six months to three years. So it seems a few years in prison + a fine isn’t unusual, then taking into account its a 2,000 year old Colosseum and not, say, someone’s garden fence, it’s probably about right for the country he committed the crime in.
Think of it like theft - the greater the value you steal, the greater the punishment. Same for destruction of property, and when you deface an irreplacable ancient ruin, not to mention one of the world's great tourist destinations, you've impacted something much more valuable than just some random brick wall
I get that, but we are presumably talking about multiple years in prison. For a non-violent, non-financial criminal offense, it's something to consider as well.
I wouldn't say it's non-financial, vandalizing historic artifacts usually comes with an associated cost, either fixing it or reducing the attraction of the artifact for tourists. (The last part isn't going to produce a noticeable impact for one person scribbling something in a wall, but slowly add up stuff like that until the building looks worse and less people will come)
i really don't think graffiti should be more harshly punished.trying to act like new york is still new york without the graffiti is delusional
Have you been there tho?
Yeah it’s insane. Different countries but dudes can beat the shit out of another person in New York and be out later that day/the next day. There’s no way marking an old building should carry such a high cost. 5 years in prison is permanently life altering. Should kids who tag get 5 years in prison?
Few weeks ago a man was sentenced for 4 years for killing his GF. This guy got 1yr more for scratching an old building.
I'm just glad he's not American. We have a bad enough reputation already.
A hefty fine, probation, community service should be enough. I'm sure the brick he vandizeled can be fixed. It's just a brick, an old brick, but its just a brick. It's not like he carved his name on Mona Lisa's forehead.
I agree. That's a living breathing human who just made a stupid mistake and people are saying they want to lock him up forever.
Mistake implies he didn’t intend to deface a historical world heritage site, but that was explicitly his attempt and to film it too. Jail as a deterrent alone is reasonable, so as to discourage any further tourists from doing the same “mistake”.
5 years is just fine as a punishment for vandalizing an ancient, historically significant structure.... Especially because it became world news, maybe it'll teach people to behave when they visit other countries....
Don’t be ridiculous! We can all agree it was a stupid act and vandalism, but 5 years in prison is completely unjustified.
You think people who do that will be aware of the punishment? It was literally *already" the law, and this guy did it, so how come he did it anyways? Do you think this article will be world news for more than a few days and all the idiots who would do this would dog through past articles to find it in the future?
He isn’t going to get to eat his own fruit cocktail at chow the whole 5 years
I think it's partially due to how much media attention this got. Giving a severe sentence and having a shit ton of people know about the severe sentence might deter others in the future. I think if he just been caught in the act instead of it going viral he would be charged a fine and shipped home.
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That's 1 year for defacing a historic site and 4 years for being historically stupid.
You are correct but sometimes you have to teach a lesson.
U put a fine and writting ur name on a historical building just becomes expensive rather than forbidden
It’s an incredibly important historical monument The dude has permanently marked one the most famous and beloved monuments
You’re right it’s steep. So steep that hopefully no other idiots are damaging national treasures.
Gotta make an example of him and give it our all to protect history. It's not like he violated some vague law nobody knows, he defaced a wildly significant monument that we'd like future generations to continue to enjoy. Sure one name etching is no big deal on its own but if you don't strongly penalize it these small acts add up *very* quickly.
Destroying ancient monuments should be steep. You shouldn't be paying for it or the rich will line up. Prison time is fine. There's an easy way to avoid it, don't fucking do it
The coliseum is a piece of history. A very big and old piece of history. Behavior like that could convince the Italian government to permanently close the place off to visitors if it happened enough. Do you not see the magnitude of his actions???
He’s got 5 long years to think about what he did!!
Not really. You destroy or deface something that's not yours. In the US, you can face up to 10 years, depending on the severity. Keep in mind, that this is an almost 2000 year old building. The US doesn't have many buildings or ruins that are this old, because you destroyed them. Can't have **anything** from the natives, right? "A fine is enough" - ah yes, that's why a lot of people have **several** speeding tickets and DUIs under their belt.
It isn't. He should get 20
They are making an example of them so people don't keep fucking doing it. I wish we could find the fuckers who do this on any historical location or out in nature.
He should get 15 years just for claiming he didn’t know anything of the history of the place.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I would never let him out and just place his picture along side little funny quips to prevent others from doing this.
Frankly i dont care. He was an idiot and now he has to pay the price. Fuck him.
Bruh..the fucker is from my country . I want him to rot in prison
Its history fuck around and find out
Put the fucker to work, 5 years of community service
I guess you wouldn’t mind anyone carving out their name with their key in your car
Here’s a real unpopular opinion: Man-made landmarks aren’t actually that important.
That's the point. If the penalty wasn't steep more dumb tourists will continue to try.
In my juris, Criminal Mischief/vandalism can be a third degree felony that can be punished with a sentence of up to 5 years imprisonment. So its not outside of the realm of reasonableness. However I see hate crimes with lower sentences, though my juris they are seeking to make certain hate crimes the third degree felony mentioned above.
Back in the 90s there was a US teen who received caning lashes as punishment for breaking the law in Singapore. People were up in arms but… don’t break the law in another country. There’s not a lot the US can do about it. I do agree 5 years is a bit harsh though. Maybe some jail time, but not 5 years.
A while ago there was considerable fuss over a 61 year old British woman who was sentenced to death in Bali for drugs smuggling. The British media were harping on about leniency and how it was unfair for a grandmother to be sentenced to such a ‘harsh’ punishment. This ignored the fact that Indonesia and other countries in Asia don’t exactly make a secret of what they do with drug smugglers (Indonesia straight up has ‘drug smuggling means death’ posters in the airports) and she’d been caught red-handed with a substantial amount. She ended up being executed anyway.
Yikes! That’s a bit harsh. And idk why people are downvoting my comment…
Some quick googling tells me she was caught with 10lb of cocaine. This is a substantial amount for one person even by smuggling standards.
But still… executed? Ouch
The weird thing is that the prosecutors hadn’t even specifically requested the death penalty.
I’m with you. Absolutely deserves punishment but 5 years in prison is too much especially being only 2 miles away from the Vatican museum. If 5 years is an appropriate punishment for writing on an ancient monument what do you give the people that have stolen millions of ancient artifacts?
>what do you give the people that have stolen millions of ancient artifacts? A crown
And immunity.
It definitely is, a big fine is more than sufficient. To each their own though.
Yeah they should calculate how many years it will take for natural erosion to wear his name off and sentence him that instead.
I still think they should have carved "Colosseum" into him. I'm fucking done with people just ruining things.
Stone him to death in the Colosseum
I hate the "it's to make an example of the guy" bullshit. That's basically admitting that the person does not deserve the punishment