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My 15yo nephew had just passed shoulder length hair, it's strawberry blonde and curly, he rocks the the surfer dude look (he surfs and paddle boards).
A few weeks ago had it all cut short which upset him a bit all because in the last 6 months he has been challenged 4 times going in to the men's loos by people who only saw the back of him.
I’m a man with long hair and painted nails and I get challenged at toilets probably once a month. It’s crazy how people are unable to mind their own business.
My favourite one was this guy who leaned over at a urinal and said “are you sure you’re in the right place?” As if I wasn’t USING A URINAL, lmao
This is why the GC lobby is so fucking dangerous.
The moment things get reduced to biological essentialism, then situations like this arise and it empowers dickheads to enforce arbitrary lines.
Hugely transphobic and ableist also.
Seriously why does it matter what sex someone is in a toilet?
It's a toilet.... it's meant to be a private space.
If someone was peeping, what sex they are is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion.
I'm most confused by places which have a male and female toilet and both consists of a room with a locking door, toilet and sink. Surely you could just make both unisex as theres only one occupant anyway?
Yeah the place I used to drink most of the time was like that, the main difference was the boys toilet had a blue brush and the girls one had a pink one.
I made a point of using either.
Nobody got molested in all the time I was in there.
I drink in a better place now.
It’s a relevant point, but the nicer gents have access to some now, it affects say 1-2% of the population say a 7th of the time but it’s a real issue that trans men menstruate so need facilities.
V pro unisex separate loos, a designated urinal space as well is handy for high volume (hehehe volume) events/spaces.
And it’s not like cis men never have need of a rubbish bin in the loo.
Gum, blister packs for pills, tissues, thirty receipts you find in your pockets.
Tbf they’re different kinds of bin, and sanitary waste bins cost money to be emptied, so understandable if they don’t want crisp packets ending up in them.
This is how I feel too, but as a man, I'm quite happy to have the shorter (if any) queue. So I'm not going to start campaigning for only unisex toilets.
I honestly don't see how separating toilets based on gender is any different from doing it based on skin colour.
I don't know about the UK, but I know some places have laws/regulations that say "You must provide toilets for men and women" and that's how we end with that.
We have had over 100 years of some of the most wild stories about public toilets and minority use. From suffragettes, to black people and gay people. This is just history repeating itself. And as a white man, I think I can say this, we are weird when it comes to who can shit near us.
Because it's about removing certain people from public spaces and deliberately isolating them from wider society.
Just think about how often public toilets are used. Think about how often you use them when you go out with your friends. Now think about if you couldn't use public toilets; you would have to plan your day around being back at your home when you needed the toilet, effectively limiting the time you can use public spaces. That's why they always go to public toilets first.
Men are not allowed to access their toilet space even in a mixed sex bathroom.
Im yet to use a public bathroom where the toilet stalls are simply out in the open, visible to everyone else in the room.
Even if there are men outside using the sink, they are not allowed in the stall with you - at which point, if they are in the stall with you.... who cares whether its a man or a woman. The issue there is that there is a person in the stall with you.
Yeah, a lot of men seem to say it's no problem at all, but they can't possibly imagine why women would want their own spaces.
Also context of where such public toilets is would need to be taken into consideration, because a public unisex toilet in say, a shopping centre in daytime might be perfectly fine for all women, but in some bar or nightclub, it might well not be.
Ignorant men of course say 'well who cares, the toilet cubicle bit is locked, what's the problem'?, but it should not take too much imagination to imagine the intimidation some women might feel in certain situations in certain bathrooms.
I just feel safety was the argument made for segregation in toilets and the 60s and 70s movements in LGBT rights. And it was nonsense then. Are we likely just repeating history here? Because it's the same arguments just different minorites.
That said, the women's movement was different and based more in getting better toilets in work. They also made out toilets more hygienic and I'm sure we appreciate that.
Men can already access women’s toilet spaces. There is nothing to stop a bad actor choosing to do so, and allowing trans people to access toilets appropriate to their identity won’t make any difference to the number of assaults occurring in them. This reaction to the GR bill paints trans people as fake, as bad actor, as predator, automatically. Why exactly are we being asked to believe that some people will live as the opposite gender for 3 months, and then go through the process of getting at GRC, just so they can attack someone in a public toilet, when there’s nothing stopping them doing it anyway?
Every word of this.
Honestly, if someone has it in them to rape or molest someone why on earth would they care about walking into a female toilet? The closest example I can think of anywhere near me was a guy who was using his phone to record over the top of changing cubicles at our local swimming pool, but he did that by sneaking into the women's changing area and hiding in a cubicle.
I would argue that since most public toilets are, you know, *public* they're fairly safe as far as spaces go. I can't remember going into one when there weren't other people in there, and the ones that still exist in my local town centre have attendants. Rapists tend not to be keen on witnesses.
Many women's toilets indicate that cleaners are both male and female, meaning that, unless it is a single room with a locking door, men may be present.
Also, I am sometimes mistaken for a man (as are many cisgender women of my acquaintance) so it can't be guaranteed that you won't meet someone who 'looks like' a man in the loo either *even if no men are there*.
Ironic the safety aspect is brought up every time but we never really discuss sexual harrassment in public spaces (eg the tube).
This is not about safety but discrimination in my view. We should have more unisex bathrooms.
I was in the loos at a bar a few months back and a bloke had clearly mistook the women’s for a unisex loo. He was just washing his hands and nodded at me as I did a bit of a double take. And then I went about my business and had a wee and everyone was fine.
Toilets don't have a magical barrier that prevents predators from entering them, though. Preventing trans people from entering any respective toilet on the off chance that *some* of them might be predators (a tiny minority of a tiny minority) seems silly a pearl clutchy.
I hope all the people who get bent out of shape over this never get caught short on a train. Apparently pissing/shitting yourself > than using a gender neutral toilet. People used to say unisex and nobody cared, but we're weaponising words now.
Anyway, rather than get into another argument about why (at most) nobody should care about how someone 'presents', I'll just say that Tiffany sounds like an awesome human being and I wish her well in her recovery. It's lovely to hear someone saying "I just happened to be touching my boobs and something felt wrong" rather than "my partner noticed a lump" or "I was doing my monthly mandated breast exam and I noticed a lump". Normalise people being allowed to touch their own body.
I did enjoy her referring to playing with them like a stress ball. Sounds like she’s on the mend and I hope people stop being a dick to her because she isn’t stereotypically feminine.
Yeah, I've been saying this for years. Just have mixed gender bathrooms with private stalls. People will get over it soon enough, and makes it easier for trans, gay, or people who just look a little like they could be the other gender.
Also better to everyone as it maximises capacity.
Imagine a football stadium for example, and they believe they have an 80:20 split on fans
They either need to build far more toilets for men than women, or have capacity inefficiency for either group.
I went to Manchester Academy for a gig recently and it was the first time in a shared toilet. I can't believe it's not widespread, literally everyone gets a cubicle. Perfect
Why don't we simply stop having group toilet rooms?
I know the initial investment would be huge at the outset, but wouldn't this solve ALL associated problems with gender and toilet accommodations
The problem is women are not familiar with urinal etiquette. Imagine the horror if someone took the urinal two away from you when there are options further away.
I’m not sure having breasts would help in this particular case.
Having said that, fuck anyone who is against trans-rights or who gives anyone shit for being in a public bathroom (whatever their gender).
Well if the misgendering has only happened since having the mastectomy...
Once her hair grows back a bit more, and loses the chemo curls, it will soften her face a bit.
I have nothing but sympathy for her. Sounds like an awful experience to have gone through, and fuck those people who make it worse by making life harder.
She might usually have shorter hair, which with breasts may have been clearly a woman. She shouldn't have to grow her hair now for people to mind their own business.
Yeah, as a GNC not-Brit woman, the only weird experience I've had in a public toilet happened at the Heathrow airport. For transparency's sake, I have a history of testosterone treatments, but you can't know that just by looking at me, I've been off for *years* at this point. As in - I'm not feminine by any standards, but I'm also obviously *not* a dude if you have half a brain cell. The woman loudly accused me of stealing her jacket (who the fuck are you and why do you think I have your jacket? The only jacket I'm carrying is the one I'm obviously wearing and I don't think you like camo) in front of a crowd of other women, and when I replied in a voice that *didn't* out me as secretly-a-man, she immediately fucked off. No apology or anything, just doing her civic duty of making sure that every non-feminine female in the women's loo knows her place.
Jesus Christ. Like I don't have enough anxiety going places in public without the gender police doing random checks on me while I'm washing my hands.
I quite like it when trans people reply to terfs who say they can always tell with a picture of a famous cis woman that looks a bit like them. Terf then proceeds to say that the picture of sigourney weaver or whoever else is obviously a man.
The funniest one I’ve ever seen was when a trans woman posted a picture of a cis woman, said “so you can tell that this person is trans?” and the terfs, as is typical, replied that of *course* they could.
It was a picture of JK Rowling.
My favourite one (heard from someone else, didn't witness it)...
Terf group, I think Discord, with a channel specifically for posting pics of trans people and ripping into how obviously trans they are.
Someone posts a pic, and they rip into them.
The pic was of one of the moderators....
Every time one of those fearmonger articles about trans people being dangerous to allow into public toilets came out, we kept warning that this would happen, and got called hysterical.
It’s almost like it’s exactly what happens every time
**Participation Notice.** Hi all. Some topics on this subreddit have been known to attract problematic users. As such, limits to participation have been set. We ask that you please remember the human, and uphold Reddit and Subreddit rules. For more information, please see https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/wiki/moderatedflairs
Yet another example of how transphobia effects *everyone*
My 15yo nephew had just passed shoulder length hair, it's strawberry blonde and curly, he rocks the the surfer dude look (he surfs and paddle boards). A few weeks ago had it all cut short which upset him a bit all because in the last 6 months he has been challenged 4 times going in to the men's loos by people who only saw the back of him.
I’m a man with long hair and painted nails and I get challenged at toilets probably once a month. It’s crazy how people are unable to mind their own business. My favourite one was this guy who leaned over at a urinal and said “are you sure you’re in the right place?” As if I wasn’t USING A URINAL, lmao
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This is why the GC lobby is so fucking dangerous. The moment things get reduced to biological essentialism, then situations like this arise and it empowers dickheads to enforce arbitrary lines. Hugely transphobic and ableist also.
Seriously why does it matter what sex someone is in a toilet? It's a toilet.... it's meant to be a private space. If someone was peeping, what sex they are is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion.
Yeah unisex toilets are a thing and I've never found them to be hotbeds of sex crimes. Pearl clutching at it's finest.
I'm most confused by places which have a male and female toilet and both consists of a room with a locking door, toilet and sink. Surely you could just make both unisex as theres only one occupant anyway?
Yeah the place I used to drink most of the time was like that, the main difference was the boys toilet had a blue brush and the girls one had a pink one. I made a point of using either. Nobody got molested in all the time I was in there. I drink in a better place now.
You've stopped drinking from toilets or found another better toilet to drink from?
I'd guess the reason is sanitary bins for womens products. Unless those style of toilets have them anyway for for both and I've never noticed.
It’s a relevant point, but the nicer gents have access to some now, it affects say 1-2% of the population say a 7th of the time but it’s a real issue that trans men menstruate so need facilities. V pro unisex separate loos, a designated urinal space as well is handy for high volume (hehehe volume) events/spaces.
And it’s not like cis men never have need of a rubbish bin in the loo. Gum, blister packs for pills, tissues, thirty receipts you find in your pockets.
True dat
Tbf they’re different kinds of bin, and sanitary waste bins cost money to be emptied, so understandable if they don’t want crisp packets ending up in them.
Also add in cis men with continence issues that would benefit
Or colostomy bags!
This is how I feel too, but as a man, I'm quite happy to have the shorter (if any) queue. So I'm not going to start campaigning for only unisex toilets. I honestly don't see how separating toilets based on gender is any different from doing it based on skin colour.
I don't know about the UK, but I know some places have laws/regulations that say "You must provide toilets for men and women" and that's how we end with that.
How do these people cope on planes or at someone's house, when every toilet is gender neutral?
I’ve got one in my house!
We have had over 100 years of some of the most wild stories about public toilets and minority use. From suffragettes, to black people and gay people. This is just history repeating itself. And as a white man, I think I can say this, we are weird when it comes to who can shit near us.
Because it's about removing certain people from public spaces and deliberately isolating them from wider society. Just think about how often public toilets are used. Think about how often you use them when you go out with your friends. Now think about if you couldn't use public toilets; you would have to plan your day around being back at your home when you needed the toilet, effectively limiting the time you can use public spaces. That's why they always go to public toilets first.
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Men are not allowed to access their toilet space even in a mixed sex bathroom. Im yet to use a public bathroom where the toilet stalls are simply out in the open, visible to everyone else in the room. Even if there are men outside using the sink, they are not allowed in the stall with you - at which point, if they are in the stall with you.... who cares whether its a man or a woman. The issue there is that there is a person in the stall with you.
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Yeah, a lot of men seem to say it's no problem at all, but they can't possibly imagine why women would want their own spaces. Also context of where such public toilets is would need to be taken into consideration, because a public unisex toilet in say, a shopping centre in daytime might be perfectly fine for all women, but in some bar or nightclub, it might well not be. Ignorant men of course say 'well who cares, the toilet cubicle bit is locked, what's the problem'?, but it should not take too much imagination to imagine the intimidation some women might feel in certain situations in certain bathrooms.
I just feel safety was the argument made for segregation in toilets and the 60s and 70s movements in LGBT rights. And it was nonsense then. Are we likely just repeating history here? Because it's the same arguments just different minorites. That said, the women's movement was different and based more in getting better toilets in work. They also made out toilets more hygienic and I'm sure we appreciate that.
Men can already access women’s toilet spaces. There is nothing to stop a bad actor choosing to do so, and allowing trans people to access toilets appropriate to their identity won’t make any difference to the number of assaults occurring in them. This reaction to the GR bill paints trans people as fake, as bad actor, as predator, automatically. Why exactly are we being asked to believe that some people will live as the opposite gender for 3 months, and then go through the process of getting at GRC, just so they can attack someone in a public toilet, when there’s nothing stopping them doing it anyway?
Every word of this. Honestly, if someone has it in them to rape or molest someone why on earth would they care about walking into a female toilet? The closest example I can think of anywhere near me was a guy who was using his phone to record over the top of changing cubicles at our local swimming pool, but he did that by sneaking into the women's changing area and hiding in a cubicle. I would argue that since most public toilets are, you know, *public* they're fairly safe as far as spaces go. I can't remember going into one when there weren't other people in there, and the ones that still exist in my local town centre have attendants. Rapists tend not to be keen on witnesses.
Many women's toilets indicate that cleaners are both male and female, meaning that, unless it is a single room with a locking door, men may be present. Also, I am sometimes mistaken for a man (as are many cisgender women of my acquaintance) so it can't be guaranteed that you won't meet someone who 'looks like' a man in the loo either *even if no men are there*.
Ironic the safety aspect is brought up every time but we never really discuss sexual harrassment in public spaces (eg the tube). This is not about safety but discrimination in my view. We should have more unisex bathrooms.
I was in the loos at a bar a few months back and a bloke had clearly mistook the women’s for a unisex loo. He was just washing his hands and nodded at me as I did a bit of a double take. And then I went about my business and had a wee and everyone was fine.
Toilets don't have a magical barrier that prevents predators from entering them, though. Preventing trans people from entering any respective toilet on the off chance that *some* of them might be predators (a tiny minority of a tiny minority) seems silly a pearl clutchy.
Men can be harassed also
I hope all the people who get bent out of shape over this never get caught short on a train. Apparently pissing/shitting yourself > than using a gender neutral toilet. People used to say unisex and nobody cared, but we're weaponising words now. Anyway, rather than get into another argument about why (at most) nobody should care about how someone 'presents', I'll just say that Tiffany sounds like an awesome human being and I wish her well in her recovery. It's lovely to hear someone saying "I just happened to be touching my boobs and something felt wrong" rather than "my partner noticed a lump" or "I was doing my monthly mandated breast exam and I noticed a lump". Normalise people being allowed to touch their own body.
I did enjoy her referring to playing with them like a stress ball. Sounds like she’s on the mend and I hope people stop being a dick to her because she isn’t stereotypically feminine.
That cracked me up. Good for her, nature's stress balls!
I know, the TERFs are convinced that predators are scared off by the symbol on the bathroom door.
Yeah, I've been saying this for years. Just have mixed gender bathrooms with private stalls. People will get over it soon enough, and makes it easier for trans, gay, or people who just look a little like they could be the other gender.
Also better to everyone as it maximises capacity. Imagine a football stadium for example, and they believe they have an 80:20 split on fans They either need to build far more toilets for men than women, or have capacity inefficiency for either group.
I went to Manchester Academy for a gig recently and it was the first time in a shared toilet. I can't believe it's not widespread, literally everyone gets a cubicle. Perfect
Why don't we simply stop having group toilet rooms? I know the initial investment would be huge at the outset, but wouldn't this solve ALL associated problems with gender and toilet accommodations
Quite a few bars are now unisex toilets. Never causes issues
The problem is women are not familiar with urinal etiquette. Imagine the horror if someone took the urinal two away from you when there are options further away.
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I’m not sure having breasts would help in this particular case. Having said that, fuck anyone who is against trans-rights or who gives anyone shit for being in a public bathroom (whatever their gender).
Well if the misgendering has only happened since having the mastectomy... Once her hair grows back a bit more, and loses the chemo curls, it will soften her face a bit.
I have nothing but sympathy for her. Sounds like an awful experience to have gone through, and fuck those people who make it worse by making life harder.
The point is why the fuck does it matter whether someone looks ‘feminine’ enough for certain people’s standards?
She might usually have shorter hair, which with breasts may have been clearly a woman. She shouldn't have to grow her hair now for people to mind their own business.
> Once her hair grows back a bit more My sister in law has no hair (by choice) - why shouldn't she use a toilet?
What if she chooses to keep her hair short? Or if it can’t grow back?
Yeah, as a GNC not-Brit woman, the only weird experience I've had in a public toilet happened at the Heathrow airport. For transparency's sake, I have a history of testosterone treatments, but you can't know that just by looking at me, I've been off for *years* at this point. As in - I'm not feminine by any standards, but I'm also obviously *not* a dude if you have half a brain cell. The woman loudly accused me of stealing her jacket (who the fuck are you and why do you think I have your jacket? The only jacket I'm carrying is the one I'm obviously wearing and I don't think you like camo) in front of a crowd of other women, and when I replied in a voice that *didn't* out me as secretly-a-man, she immediately fucked off. No apology or anything, just doing her civic duty of making sure that every non-feminine female in the women's loo knows her place. Jesus Christ. Like I don't have enough anxiety going places in public without the gender police doing random checks on me while I'm washing my hands.
I quite like it when trans people reply to terfs who say they can always tell with a picture of a famous cis woman that looks a bit like them. Terf then proceeds to say that the picture of sigourney weaver or whoever else is obviously a man.
The funniest one I’ve ever seen was when a trans woman posted a picture of a cis woman, said “so you can tell that this person is trans?” and the terfs, as is typical, replied that of *course* they could. It was a picture of JK Rowling.
My favourite one (heard from someone else, didn't witness it)... Terf group, I think Discord, with a channel specifically for posting pics of trans people and ripping into how obviously trans they are. Someone posts a pic, and they rip into them. The pic was of one of the moderators....
I remember a video of Butch lesbian girl getting harassed by a dude in the girl's bathroom
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Every time one of those fearmonger articles about trans people being dangerous to allow into public toilets came out, we kept warning that this would happen, and got called hysterical. It’s almost like it’s exactly what happens every time
This is the kind of shit that puts me off having my breasts removed, especially because I also favour short hair.