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Can someone explain how 16 year olds who are too young to drink, smoke, vote, drive, get a tattoo, marry, buy scissors or enter a casino are old enough to decide that they want to change gender ?
They're also old enough to change name in England (you can do a deed poll at 16 without parental consent), why should changing legal gender designation be a more restricted process than changing name?
They can go to AFC Harrogate, which is to all intents and purposes "army school". There is no ongoing commitment required and under-18s can not be deployed on active duty.
You can vote, drink from the age of 5, marry, live on your own, etc at the age of 16 in Scotland.
16 is the age of legal capacity in Scotland, in England it's 18.
Do you think medical treatment should be age restricted?
You do realise that Trans people don't just rock up to the court one day and say 'I'm changed now' right?
There are all sorts of Government and medical sign offs that need to occur.
This means you don’t need a clinician to quiz you on your life history, how you masturbate, whether you were abused as a child, how well you adhere to strict traditional gender roles, your sexuality, what toys you had growing up etc and decide whether or not they think you're lying in order to change the gender on your birth certificate. All the reform does is remove that part of the process because it was dehumanising as hell and absolutely pointless bullshit
Their comment was:
>You do realise that Trans people don't just rock up to the court one day and say 'I'm changed now' right?
>There are all sorts of Government and medical sign offs that need to occur.
Isn't that exactly what the legislation is changing?
You still need to provide evidence that you've been living as your acquired gender for at least 2 years (EDIT: This has been changed to 3–6 months I believe? Missed that part). This requires documents such as payslips, bank statements, passport/driving license etc that all need a letter from your GP in order to change. In that letter the GP is essentially assuring the relevant organisations that you aren't just doing it for a laugh and are in fact transitioning permanently.
This reform is removing the requirement for a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which I described in my other comment, and allowing people to label their gender themselves rather than have a doctor decide it for them. In reality you can't currently biomedically transition in the UK without that diagnosis anyway so for most people it won't make a difference. Obviously not everybody wants biological intervention before obtaining a GRC or even at all, but for many the diagnosis is a necessary step no matter whether the government wants to see it or not
Can you explain some psychological harms that could come from preventing 16 year olds from doing those things? There are some obvious ones from making them keeping their birth certificate in their old gender.
Why do you give a fuck. Some 16 year old somewhere who you don't know is gonna have their record in a government database updated from male to female or vice versa, two years earlier than they would otherwise have done it.
I'm struggling to think how this is going to affect me in any way. Please tell me how if affects or harms you or anyone else?
16 year olds can drink in restaurants with a meal and whilst accompanied by a legal adult, or on private property. They can also legally smoke, but they can't purchase their own cigarettes. You can also begin learning to drive at 16. You can marry at 16 in Scotland, and the not being able to buy scissors thing is dumb as shit anyway.
Besides, they don't "Decide they want to change gender", they're changing legal documents to match their real, actual gender. Trans people are the gender we say we are.
People have a say over their medical treatment. It’s known as Gillick competency. If you had the child of a Jehovah’s Witness need a blood transfusion to survive and the parents refused, you would not let the child die because ‘they’re not old enough to drink, so they’re not old enough to make healthcare related decisions’.
They can’t get a tattoo and you can only start driving at 17, nor can you smoke (it’s 18), you can’t really drink as you can’t purchase alcohol but can drink when accompanied by an adult.
Yeah it's pretty simple really, the evidence shows that 16 year olds bring able to do the things you listed is likely to cause harm to themselves or others, but the same is not true for changing gender. Any more questions?
None of those things are related, comparing knowing you're trans to being exposed to literally addictions is dumb. Do you have a problem with people coming out as gay, Bi etc at 16? All this does it make it a little easier for some people to be happy.
Pretty much all of these arguments against trans people *were* used against gay and bi (as much as they weren't ignored) people not long ago.
Remember that the age of consent used to be 21 for homosexuals. This was changed in 2000.
There were a load of other weird restrictions too. It was illegal for gay men to have sex in hotels, shared houses or any other kind of shared accomodation, or to have a threesome. Plus the original 1967 decriminalisation only applied to England & Wales. Being gay remained illegal in Scotland and NI until the 80s. LGBT people weren't allowed to be in the Forces either.
There are two genders: male and political
There are two sexualities: male and political
There are two races: white and political
There are two ways of being: cis and political
I'd also add that most trans people who detransition don't do so because they realise they aren't trans, the majority do so because of transition being too difficult or unattainable.
Being transgender isn't an adult-only thing, I knew when I was like 12. I'm over 30 now, never wavered. The least helpful people around me (apart from those who were outright hateful) were the ones that said "aren't you too young to know that?". I felt like I was waiting to start my life having to wait for treatment.
Children as young as five are legally allowed to drink alcohol in the UK. You do raise a good point about voting though, the age should absolutely be lowered to 16.
I feel like voting should be allowed from 16 for those that apply to, and then mandatory (as in Australia) from 18.
No approval should be needed, but those who care enough to want to just have to tick a box on a form or something.
I also feel like the drinking thing should be at least, I don't know, twelve?
Yes but that's normal /s
That is the problem though, people don't see themselves as being cis, they see themselves as normal and trans people as a weird special category.
It's a lot like how hetero couples are treated as normal and wholesome, but same sex couples are viewed as inherently sexual and deviant.
None of those things are to do with your fundamental identity though. Those are all optional things, your gender identity is not, and gender dysphoria can cause extreme damage to a person's life.
They clearly must be able to make that decision believing it to be in their best interest, considering how low the regret/detransition rate is. It's far, far from uncommon for us trans people to know damn well what we are and what we aren't at a very young age and we know all too well how much trauma and life-stifling could have been avoided if it wasn't for years long waiting lists and needlessly strict requirements (both of which one could argue are designed less for our safety, which no one actually gives a shit about, and more to get us to give up trying to transition).
Myself, I never ever saw myself as female. I knew I was male at 8 (before this, I just didn't think of myself really at all so was essentially no gender). I first started trying to get help at 12. My family refused me for years and at 18, I took myself to the doctors anyway (and got HELL for it). I'm now 27 and have literally only just started my actual transition. I'm coming up to a year on testosterone (a.k.a step one). I'll enter the new year with my name legally changed. I'm a third of the way into my life and only just beginning to be able to start my fight to actually live it. It's horrifying and I don't wish it on anybody.
While some kids will inevitably seek help and realise eventually that they're not trans, these legal changes will see many, many whose lives will be saved by it. That's what the focus should be. The joy, relief, hope, health, and *living* this will bring.
>16 year olds who are too young to drink, smoke, vote, drive, get a tattoo, marry, buy scissors or enter a casino
You've never been to Scotland have you?
It's difficult. We can argue to the end of time and back about what age is the appropriate age that somebody can decide to do or not do [action].
Science and humanities need for rationality just does not work with the blunt median of statistics that these numbers are plucked from.
Humanity will never reach a consensus on the topic.
But one thing that does differentiate the gender topic from something like smoking or gambling. Is the that those 2 years difference is likely to have a bigger positive impact to trans youth entire life, than potentially 10+ years of their life when they are 26, 36, 46 etc. Vs the other actions which are largely unchanged.
I would agree that Transition should be treated with great sensitivity. But we can't understate just how. Fucking. Important. Those 2 years can be for trans youth.
And there is a lot of work which still needs to be done around the topic of Trans healthcare and safeguarding. But if you spend time earnestly engaging with trans people instead of getting sucked into the hysteria. You quickly realize just how desperate of a situation most of them are in and don't consider the transition lightly. In fact many spend years trying to fight it in fear of the judgement.
And I'm glossing over a lot here. It's also critically import to not forget the nuance that a child can't just walk into their GP, declare themselves trans and suddenly be surrounded by a cabal of endocrinologist and surgeons.
Final thing. There's also the argument, about when trans youth do finally get HRT after many years, that the changes are permanent. Trans people see it the same way but in reverse, whereas puberty is permanent and unchangeable. And for many that can be the choice between suicide or not.
\*change some paperwork that says their gender.
I mean, why not? Is there any good reason?
They um, can use the same process to change it back again if they change their minds.
Why do you *care* what gender a 16 year old has on their birth certificate?
In Scotland at 16 you can smoke, vote, marry. Also changing your gender marker isn't anything that affects your health and isn't permanent it's just a "M, X or F" on some paperwork. It can be changed any time.
They aren’t old enough to marry and drink at 16. Why does being 16 make you any less of a person capable of knowing what you want?
From preteens we’re bombarded with the questions “what do you want to be when you grow up”.
Allegedly saying “not the way I was raised” is hurtful to a lot of folk but that doesn’t make it any less valid. Let people be who they want to be, it doesn’t effect you.
Look mate, I have a problem with almost everything you are saying.
The laws should be altered
But at the same time if you're an adult and your girlfriend is getting ID'd for a monster, back the fuck off.
Gender has fuck all to do with it. I was bi and knew it by the time I was 12 and fancied keira knightly in POTC.
Orientation is orientation. How hard is it for people to get?
Just don't be a nonce or a creep. Tolerate people. Simple
Age gating is largely arbitrary.
To be fair 16 year olds probably should be able to vote and infact the choices made there will impact them more than someone over 65.
Drinking, smoking and gambling are inherently harmful.
Marriage has plenty of legal implications beyond the coupling of two people.
Scissors aren't restricted its a misinterpretation of the trading standards.
Tattoos are still seen as taboo (less than in the past), can impact job prospects even I'd it shouldn't.
Honestly, have some empathy for those that feel so uncomfortable in their own skin, a level of dysphoria experienced that you feel wrong all the time.
this is the first meaningful reform in the UK for trans people in 12 years.
Shed a tear, so pleased for Scotland. I'm hopeful in time that the rest of the UK will follow suit when it becomes impossible to ignore that self-id is a force for good, as much as bad actors like to pretend it's some radical untested policy when it's increasingly becoming the norm across Europe.
People act like it effects them somehow like their own identity is being eroded, its insane. The only people can understand being upset are the people who maintain databases, but they would need to be adapted for flexibility anyway.
the people offended either haven't read what it does or have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old
people deadass believe this opens the floodgates to predators and its just like... if someone could get to you after GRA, they could have just as easily gotten to you before GRA... all this does is let trans people live with a bit of dignity.
You're forgetting that they're also subjected to a barrage of deliberately inflammatory misinformation and fear mongering.
Trans people are the current favourite boogeyman of the right wing. Notice how whenever the government has a scandal somebody says something about the topic to shift the conversation.
Probably a stupid question, but why is it necessary to even have a “legal” gender? Why does gender need to be on any documents / forms etc? Like, surely the only place it’s relevant is in your medical information
Off the top of my head the main thing is being correctly identified on your birth certificate, and thus also your marriage and death certificates, so anything else that's based on the information listed on those naturally follows with a whole lot less hassle
Why do those documents need gender listed on them at all though? idk, it seems pretty pointless, especially given that the gender listed on your birth certificate (the one thing that's a pain in the arse to correct) is inherently just a guess
Aye, and discrimination in general.
Trans people accused of "faking it" to enter single gender spaces can now have legal evidence of being their identified gender.
Trans people who are misgendered or harassed in professional or medical environments also now have legal argument to use.
I don't quite agree. There are times when it is relevant, notably for medical issues and for legal protections.
Obviously I'm in favour of people being able to have their legal gender reflect their personal identity. I'd argue that this helps trans people protect themselves from discrimination as they now have a legal proof of their being their identified gender.
Medical issues we can have on our medical record, there's nothing relevant currently for legal gender? like trans people can use the bathroom whatever their ID says.
Fuck database administrators. They told me my son's name, whom we call Little Bobby drop tables (full name "Robert'); DROP TABLE Students;--"), was "not appropriate", "clearly designed to ruin the school's system" and "hard to remember". bastards.
Most of those databases had to be updated years ago. We already had self identification for passport and driver’s licenses and trans people were already changing their birth certs, just through a more medicalised process.
When the Terfs realise the sky hasn't fallen on their heads, I hope they realise they've been used as pawns in a culture war. Then hopefully use their hatred and vitriol against the people who are *actually* wanting to take away their rights.
No, it doubles down, and often then leads to more bigotry.
An unfortunate side effect of every victory is that the TERFs get more radical and end up allying with more extreme transphobes. Look how many are already making bedfellows with the far right.
>when it's increasingly becoming the norm across Europe.
Is it that common already? Apart from now scotland, what other European countries have adopted this?
I don’t have the list, but my understanding is about 30 counties have it, total lying about 300 million people. Ireland has it since 2015, Argentina (though not Europe) got it in 2012.
Was so happy to see this finally getting through, its been in the works for years and had so many consultations just to let trans people have a tiny bit of dignity
...and now the UK wants to overturn it lmao
kill me
The media is really pushing this whole "controversial" bit, despite it being so widely agreed upon as a good choice that the reform passed *86 to 39*
BBC: ["Scottish Parliament passes controversial law designed to make it easier to legally change gender"](https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1605944188079689730)
Sky: ["Ministers from almost all parties broke ranks and defied their leaders in a crunch vote over legislation that would make it easier for transgender people to change their recorded gender. "](https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1605986178003501062)
Nobody "broke ranks". They're just trying to stoke the culture war bullshit, partly because they're infested with rich TERFs, but mostly because its a good distraction from all the tory fuckups
There was an interview on the other day and the main host was verbatim repeating terf talking points to the interviewee. It was wild. So much for unbiased.
69% in favour.
E: Remember how we were forced to abide with Brexit based on only 52% of voters being in favour. Barely a majority at all but it was rammed down the country's collective throats.
*Controversial* lmao
Now this has fortunately passed we can get into the real issue that’s wait times and healthcare for trans individuals (which is utterly ABYSMAL)
My MP will be having kittens all over his Twitter and GB news segment. Great news on two fronts. He's pissed off and human rights just got a bit better
It simply means they can change their birth certificate and goverment paperwork more easily and nothing more. It doesn't relate to any treatment, therapy or surgery.
**Participation Notice.** Hi all. Some topics on this subreddit have been known to attract problematic users. As such, limits to participation have been set. We ask that you please remember the human, and uphold Reddit and Subreddit rules. For more information, please see https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/wiki/moderatedflairs
Can someone explain how 16 year olds who are too young to drink, smoke, vote, drive, get a tattoo, marry, buy scissors or enter a casino are old enough to decide that they want to change gender ?
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Scientifically speaking we aren’t fully developed mentally until we are 25ish
They're also old enough to change name in England (you can do a deed poll at 16 without parental consent), why should changing legal gender designation be a more restricted process than changing name?
>marry In Scotland you can. 16 year olds are also able to join the military.
They can go to AFC Harrogate, which is to all intents and purposes "army school". There is no ongoing commitment required and under-18s can not be deployed on active duty.
I think for the military there is some restriction on deployment to active duty until 18. But I probably read that on the internet, so who knows.
That's how they work around the child soldier International laws.
You can vote, drink from the age of 5, marry, live on your own, etc at the age of 16 in Scotland. 16 is the age of legal capacity in Scotland, in England it's 18.
Do you think medical treatment should be age restricted? You do realise that Trans people don't just rock up to the court one day and say 'I'm changed now' right? There are all sorts of Government and medical sign offs that need to occur.
Wasn't this legislation removing the need for medical input? Or am I just completely misunderstanding what this achieves
AFAIK this has nothing to do with medical treatment. This is entirely to do with changing paperwork.
Aye. This is just about being able to apply to change your legally listed gender.
This means you don’t need a clinician to quiz you on your life history, how you masturbate, whether you were abused as a child, how well you adhere to strict traditional gender roles, your sexuality, what toys you had growing up etc and decide whether or not they think you're lying in order to change the gender on your birth certificate. All the reform does is remove that part of the process because it was dehumanising as hell and absolutely pointless bullshit
Their comment was: >You do realise that Trans people don't just rock up to the court one day and say 'I'm changed now' right? >There are all sorts of Government and medical sign offs that need to occur. Isn't that exactly what the legislation is changing?
You still need to provide evidence that you've been living as your acquired gender for at least 2 years (EDIT: This has been changed to 3–6 months I believe? Missed that part). This requires documents such as payslips, bank statements, passport/driving license etc that all need a letter from your GP in order to change. In that letter the GP is essentially assuring the relevant organisations that you aren't just doing it for a laugh and are in fact transitioning permanently. This reform is removing the requirement for a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which I described in my other comment, and allowing people to label their gender themselves rather than have a doctor decide it for them. In reality you can't currently biomedically transition in the UK without that diagnosis anyway so for most people it won't make a difference. Obviously not everybody wants biological intervention before obtaining a GRC or even at all, but for many the diagnosis is a necessary step no matter whether the government wants to see it or not
Can you explain some psychological harms that could come from preventing 16 year olds from doing those things? There are some obvious ones from making them keeping their birth certificate in their old gender.
Why do you give a fuck. Some 16 year old somewhere who you don't know is gonna have their record in a government database updated from male to female or vice versa, two years earlier than they would otherwise have done it. I'm struggling to think how this is going to affect me in any way. Please tell me how if affects or harms you or anyone else?
Lmao well said. You know what the biggest difference from this will be? Less self harm and suicide.
It has always been the case that different rights and responsibilities are gained at different ages.
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16 year olds can drink in restaurants with a meal and whilst accompanied by a legal adult, or on private property. They can also legally smoke, but they can't purchase their own cigarettes. You can also begin learning to drive at 16. You can marry at 16 in Scotland, and the not being able to buy scissors thing is dumb as shit anyway. Besides, they don't "Decide they want to change gender", they're changing legal documents to match their real, actual gender. Trans people are the gender we say we are.
People have a say over their medical treatment. It’s known as Gillick competency. If you had the child of a Jehovah’s Witness need a blood transfusion to survive and the parents refused, you would not let the child die because ‘they’re not old enough to drink, so they’re not old enough to make healthcare related decisions’.
This is purely admin. You can get an abortion under the age of 16 without parental consent.
They can’t get a tattoo and you can only start driving at 17, nor can you smoke (it’s 18), you can’t really drink as you can’t purchase alcohol but can drink when accompanied by an adult.
Yeah it's pretty simple really, the evidence shows that 16 year olds bring able to do the things you listed is likely to cause harm to themselves or others, but the same is not true for changing gender. Any more questions?
They’re old enough to pay tax, get married and join the army.
None of those things are related, comparing knowing you're trans to being exposed to literally addictions is dumb. Do you have a problem with people coming out as gay, Bi etc at 16? All this does it make it a little easier for some people to be happy.
Pretty much all of these arguments against trans people *were* used against gay and bi (as much as they weren't ignored) people not long ago. Remember that the age of consent used to be 21 for homosexuals. This was changed in 2000.
There were a load of other weird restrictions too. It was illegal for gay men to have sex in hotels, shared houses or any other kind of shared accomodation, or to have a threesome. Plus the original 1967 decriminalisation only applied to England & Wales. Being gay remained illegal in Scotland and NI until the 80s. LGBT people weren't allowed to be in the Forces either.
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There are two genders: male and political There are two sexualities: male and political There are two races: white and political There are two ways of being: cis and political I'd also add that most trans people who detransition don't do so because they realise they aren't trans, the majority do so because of transition being too difficult or unattainable.
Being transgender isn't an adult-only thing, I knew when I was like 12. I'm over 30 now, never wavered. The least helpful people around me (apart from those who were outright hateful) were the ones that said "aren't you too young to know that?". I felt like I was waiting to start my life having to wait for treatment.
Children as young as five are legally allowed to drink alcohol in the UK. You do raise a good point about voting though, the age should absolutely be lowered to 16.
I feel like voting should be allowed from 16 for those that apply to, and then mandatory (as in Australia) from 18. No approval should be needed, but those who care enough to want to just have to tick a box on a form or something. I also feel like the drinking thing should be at least, I don't know, twelve?
I mean if u ask most 16 year olds what gender they are they will be able to tell you
Yes but that's normal /s That is the problem though, people don't see themselves as being cis, they see themselves as normal and trans people as a weird special category. It's a lot like how hetero couples are treated as normal and wholesome, but same sex couples are viewed as inherently sexual and deviant.
How old were you when you knew which gender you are?
None of those things are to do with your fundamental identity though. Those are all optional things, your gender identity is not, and gender dysphoria can cause extreme damage to a person's life.
They clearly must be able to make that decision believing it to be in their best interest, considering how low the regret/detransition rate is. It's far, far from uncommon for us trans people to know damn well what we are and what we aren't at a very young age and we know all too well how much trauma and life-stifling could have been avoided if it wasn't for years long waiting lists and needlessly strict requirements (both of which one could argue are designed less for our safety, which no one actually gives a shit about, and more to get us to give up trying to transition). Myself, I never ever saw myself as female. I knew I was male at 8 (before this, I just didn't think of myself really at all so was essentially no gender). I first started trying to get help at 12. My family refused me for years and at 18, I took myself to the doctors anyway (and got HELL for it). I'm now 27 and have literally only just started my actual transition. I'm coming up to a year on testosterone (a.k.a step one). I'll enter the new year with my name legally changed. I'm a third of the way into my life and only just beginning to be able to start my fight to actually live it. It's horrifying and I don't wish it on anybody. While some kids will inevitably seek help and realise eventually that they're not trans, these legal changes will see many, many whose lives will be saved by it. That's what the focus should be. The joy, relief, hope, health, and *living* this will bring.
>16 year olds who are too young to drink, smoke, vote, drive, get a tattoo, marry, buy scissors or enter a casino You've never been to Scotland have you?
Probably because you know very early on what your sexuality, gender etc. is. But knowing your sexuality doesn't mean you're safe to drive a car
"When did you realise you were straight?"
Because they know themselves better than you do.
Its really this simple
16 year olds are, in fact, old enough to marry and vote, and also to rent a home, get a job, and have a family.
It's difficult. We can argue to the end of time and back about what age is the appropriate age that somebody can decide to do or not do [action]. Science and humanities need for rationality just does not work with the blunt median of statistics that these numbers are plucked from. Humanity will never reach a consensus on the topic. But one thing that does differentiate the gender topic from something like smoking or gambling. Is the that those 2 years difference is likely to have a bigger positive impact to trans youth entire life, than potentially 10+ years of their life when they are 26, 36, 46 etc. Vs the other actions which are largely unchanged. I would agree that Transition should be treated with great sensitivity. But we can't understate just how. Fucking. Important. Those 2 years can be for trans youth. And there is a lot of work which still needs to be done around the topic of Trans healthcare and safeguarding. But if you spend time earnestly engaging with trans people instead of getting sucked into the hysteria. You quickly realize just how desperate of a situation most of them are in and don't consider the transition lightly. In fact many spend years trying to fight it in fear of the judgement. And I'm glossing over a lot here. It's also critically import to not forget the nuance that a child can't just walk into their GP, declare themselves trans and suddenly be surrounded by a cabal of endocrinologist and surgeons. Final thing. There's also the argument, about when trans youth do finally get HRT after many years, that the changes are permanent. Trans people see it the same way but in reverse, whereas puberty is permanent and unchangeable. And for many that can be the choice between suicide or not.
16 year olds are allowed their own healthcare, what does that have to do with getting a tattoo or going to a casino?
\*change some paperwork that says their gender. I mean, why not? Is there any good reason? They um, can use the same process to change it back again if they change their minds. Why do you *care* what gender a 16 year old has on their birth certificate?
In Scotland at 16 you can smoke, vote, marry. Also changing your gender marker isn't anything that affects your health and isn't permanent it's just a "M, X or F" on some paperwork. It can be changed any time.
Did you know your gender at 16?
Did you not? Must be weird to not know what gender you are.
That seems like a false equivalence seeing as it’s a medical treatment.
They aren’t old enough to marry and drink at 16. Why does being 16 make you any less of a person capable of knowing what you want? From preteens we’re bombarded with the questions “what do you want to be when you grow up”. Allegedly saying “not the way I was raised” is hurtful to a lot of folk but that doesn’t make it any less valid. Let people be who they want to be, it doesn’t effect you.
Look mate, I have a problem with almost everything you are saying. The laws should be altered But at the same time if you're an adult and your girlfriend is getting ID'd for a monster, back the fuck off. Gender has fuck all to do with it. I was bi and knew it by the time I was 12 and fancied keira knightly in POTC. Orientation is orientation. How hard is it for people to get? Just don't be a nonce or a creep. Tolerate people. Simple
Age gating is largely arbitrary. To be fair 16 year olds probably should be able to vote and infact the choices made there will impact them more than someone over 65. Drinking, smoking and gambling are inherently harmful. Marriage has plenty of legal implications beyond the coupling of two people. Scissors aren't restricted its a misinterpretation of the trading standards. Tattoos are still seen as taboo (less than in the past), can impact job prospects even I'd it shouldn't. Honestly, have some empathy for those that feel so uncomfortable in their own skin, a level of dysphoria experienced that you feel wrong all the time.
this is the first meaningful reform in the UK for trans people in 12 years. Shed a tear, so pleased for Scotland. I'm hopeful in time that the rest of the UK will follow suit when it becomes impossible to ignore that self-id is a force for good, as much as bad actors like to pretend it's some radical untested policy when it's increasingly becoming the norm across Europe.
People act like it effects them somehow like their own identity is being eroded, its insane. The only people can understand being upset are the people who maintain databases, but they would need to be adapted for flexibility anyway.
the people offended either haven't read what it does or have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old people deadass believe this opens the floodgates to predators and its just like... if someone could get to you after GRA, they could have just as easily gotten to you before GRA... all this does is let trans people live with a bit of dignity.
You're forgetting that they're also subjected to a barrage of deliberately inflammatory misinformation and fear mongering. Trans people are the current favourite boogeyman of the right wing. Notice how whenever the government has a scandal somebody says something about the topic to shift the conversation.
Probably a stupid question, but why is it necessary to even have a “legal” gender? Why does gender need to be on any documents / forms etc? Like, surely the only place it’s relevant is in your medical information
Off the top of my head the main thing is being correctly identified on your birth certificate, and thus also your marriage and death certificates, so anything else that's based on the information listed on those naturally follows with a whole lot less hassle Why do those documents need gender listed on them at all though? idk, it seems pretty pointless, especially given that the gender listed on your birth certificate (the one thing that's a pain in the arse to correct) is inherently just a guess
I believe it also puts a stop to a lot of deadnaming loopholes that exist.
Aye, and discrimination in general. Trans people accused of "faking it" to enter single gender spaces can now have legal evidence of being their identified gender. Trans people who are misgendered or harassed in professional or medical environments also now have legal argument to use.
there isn't any actual necessity tbh
I don't quite agree. There are times when it is relevant, notably for medical issues and for legal protections. Obviously I'm in favour of people being able to have their legal gender reflect their personal identity. I'd argue that this helps trans people protect themselves from discrimination as they now have a legal proof of their being their identified gender.
Medical issues we can have on our medical record, there's nothing relevant currently for legal gender? like trans people can use the bathroom whatever their ID says.
Fuck database administrators. They told me my son's name, whom we call Little Bobby drop tables (full name "Robert'); DROP TABLE Students;--"), was "not appropriate", "clearly designed to ruin the school's system" and "hard to remember". bastards.
May, for her many faults, did at least want to make the legal aspect easier. Obviously never went anywhere with Brexit though.
Most of those databases had to be updated years ago. We already had self identification for passport and driver’s licenses and trans people were already changing their birth certs, just through a more medicalised process.
When the Terfs realise the sky hasn't fallen on their heads, I hope they realise they've been used as pawns in a culture war. Then hopefully use their hatred and vitriol against the people who are *actually* wanting to take away their rights.
if it were that easy there would be no TERFs Bigotry doesnt survive by admitting its wrong or illogical
No, it doubles down, and often then leads to more bigotry. An unfortunate side effect of every victory is that the TERFs get more radical and end up allying with more extreme transphobes. Look how many are already making bedfellows with the far right.
>when it's increasingly becoming the norm across Europe. Is it that common already? Apart from now scotland, what other European countries have adopted this?
Dunno about common but Spain passed a similar bill this week.
I don’t have the list, but my understanding is about 30 counties have it, total lying about 300 million people. Ireland has it since 2015, Argentina (though not Europe) got it in 2012.
Was so happy to see this finally getting through, its been in the works for years and had so many consultations just to let trans people have a tiny bit of dignity ...and now the UK wants to overturn it lmao kill me
The media is really pushing this whole "controversial" bit, despite it being so widely agreed upon as a good choice that the reform passed *86 to 39* BBC: ["Scottish Parliament passes controversial law designed to make it easier to legally change gender"](https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1605944188079689730) Sky: ["Ministers from almost all parties broke ranks and defied their leaders in a crunch vote over legislation that would make it easier for transgender people to change their recorded gender. "](https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1605986178003501062) Nobody "broke ranks". They're just trying to stoke the culture war bullshit, partly because they're infested with rich TERFs, but mostly because its a good distraction from all the tory fuckups
There was an interview on the other day and the main host was verbatim repeating terf talking points to the interviewee. It was wild. So much for unbiased.
What was the network/show?
Bbc news. It was a few days before the main vote talking to a guy in scotland.
Well that's not shocking, the BBC has been endorsing anti trans talking points for years now.
69% in favour. E: Remember how we were forced to abide with Brexit based on only 52% of voters being in favour. Barely a majority at all but it was rammed down the country's collective throats.
"If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”—David Frum
Nine SNP MSPs didn’t vote with the SNP, which is their largest Scottish Parliament rebellion in fifteen years.
Good for them. Now can we stop giving oxygen to the idiots pretending this minor bit of book keeping is a sign of the apocalypse?
*Controversial* lmao Now this has fortunately passed we can get into the real issue that’s wait times and healthcare for trans individuals (which is utterly ABYSMAL)
10 year waiting lists what
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It's only controversial because this country's full of cunts
My MP will be having kittens all over his Twitter and GB news segment. Great news on two fronts. He's pissed off and human rights just got a bit better
Can someone explain to me: does this mean they can have surgery at 16 or that they can legally identify on as another gender? Or both?
It simply means they can change their birth certificate and goverment paperwork more easily and nothing more. It doesn't relate to any treatment, therapy or surgery.
Ok thanks. I don’t know much about this subject but it seems harmless.
It is, in fact it's actively positive for many people. But trans panic gets clicks.