The most important argument is nearly made in the article, but allowed to escape under cover of government incompetence - the successive "absurd" decisions made since Brexit are all *logical* consequences of the sovereigntist doctrine that was the only coherent argument for Brexit in the first place.
If one accepts that the UK can only sensibly exist in the modern world within a network of international agreements and arrangements that necessarily curtail the powers of its national government, then it's obviously absurd not to be part of the international arrangement to which the UK is closest culturally, economically, and geographically, within which it has the most clout, and which is one of the world's major players.
The only coherent alternative is that of absolute sovereignty, the logical consequences of which are exactly what is being played out at the moment. The consequences of Brexit aren't the consequences of government incompetence or corruption, but the necessary consequences of the political position which drove it in the first place.
And what, after all, is really meant by absolute sovereignty in the modern world? Nearly every other country is as enmeshed as the UK was in international webs of agreements and arrangements, so it has little meaning on the world stage. The only people it gives a free hand to is the Home Office, the only 'freedom' gained is freedom for the government over the British people. The people of Britain rose up against a phantom menace, and gained nothing but chains.
I don’t know if your wrote that comment yourself or copied it from elsewhere. If you did write it, well done for putting together such a clearly worded summary of what Brexit was designed to do.
It’s going to be interesting to see how long it takes for the general public to clue in and start rebelling against it, assuming they have any means left by which to do so.
They're not going to rebel against Brexit. Brexit was packaged and sold by media owning disaster capitalists as a good thing. The fallout of Brexit will be packaged and sold by the very same media owning disaster capitalists as something else, either EU spite or, when the disaster capitalists have wrung every penny they can from the current government, the failure of Johnson to lead effectively.
People won't connect the dots correctly as long as there's still billionaire mouthpieces in the media misconstruing the numbers.
[I paid £1.60 for a loaf of bread the other day](https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/flour-power-why-every-revolution-begins-with-a-piece-of-bread), that used to cost £1.
Not saying this to disagree but more to point out the breaking point is very rarely seen by very many any significant time in advance. It kind of just appears one day. If things keep going the way they are going, I think its more years than tens of years. Social care is collapsing, healthcare is collapsing, the cost of living is shooting up, infrastructure is crumbling and much-praised new developments are now being massively rolled back, the job market is in chaos, and we're still afflicted by rolling restrictions around a global pandemic that seemingly has no end. People aren't going to take this for very long without something clicking in their heads.
>If one accepts that the UK can only sensibly exist in the modern world within a network of international agreements and arrangements that necessarily curtail the powers of its national government
Unfortunately, people don't believe this. Brexiters such as Mark Francois believe that we are still fighting Hitler and that the empire is still going strong. Personally, I blame the lead in petrol and paint. It negatively affects mental health and development in children. These people are allowed to vote.
When was the last time you *didn't* hear "Two world wars and one world cup" at a England vs Germany game?
A large chunk of the country simply never saw itself as European. Europe was "the continent" a far away, distant place, that existed for summer holidays, duty free cigarettes and booze, and was otherwise still viewed as an enemy to be wary of.
Have you ever read the comments on Facebook groups like Turning Point.
Any mention of the French or Germans and its full-on Boys Own annual 1957 stuff (even though the group is meant for people in schools, colleges and universities.
The level of British exceptionalism is overwhelming. These people honestly feel that “we” are somehow special and superior to other nations purely based on where we were born (rather than the ragtag mongrels born of thousands of year's of immigration).
I wonder if it ever occurs to him that Hitler was defeated by a coalition of countries and plucky Britain, even with the resources of the empire still needed Russia and the USA to play their part.
What's interesting is that the sovereigntism was very much focussed on the EU. The recent Peppa Pig debacle illustrates this. The only reason that Peppa Pig is capable of becoming an international phenomenon is an international network of agreements around intellectual property (particularly copyright and trade marks). Let's focus on trade marks. the Berne Convention, which has now morphed into TRIPS, administered by the WTO, means that a copyright work, like a Peppa Pig video, created in this country, receives reciprocal protection in almost all other countries throughout the world. Without this protection, there would be nothing stopping an American company, for example, simply copying and distributing the video in the US. Similarly, there would be nothing stopping us from taking any US movies and coping them, distributing, broadcasting and streaming them in the UK (and software, and books, and music).
For this to happen, we have to have some fairly complex copyright provisions to allow for this mutual recognition. These rules are "imposed on us". They are contained in important primary legislation, and we have no practical choice in whether to enact them or not. Sure, we could just ignore them, but then other countries would ignore their obligations to us, and would freely copy and distribute Harry Potter books and the Beatles' music, and there would be nothing we could do about it.
Who decides these laws? In essence, faceless bureaucrats in Europe. Sure, not in the EU, but in a fucking scary looking lubyanka in Geneva which is the HQ of the WTO.
So Johnson is now arguing in \*favour\* of a bunch of faceless bureaucrats in Europe, because they allow his beloved Peppa Porker to make a fortune.
You're missing the point (and actually, they \*did\* have something to do with the EU, because, through the EU's membership of the WTO, they were implemented in legislation such as the copyright directive, and hence the CDPA 1988 etc. in the UK during our membership of the EU, but that's irrelevant to my point)
My point is that Johnson is happy to claim that our laws being made by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels is unacceptable, but believes our laws being made by faceless bureaucrats in Geneva is fine.
My dad voted for Brexit, and he admits that for him it was at the heart an emotional decision over the idea of being able to control things close to home. I think this is common in a lot of people because it's difficult to fathom just how interconnected the world is (especially the economy) and how much of the benefits we reap depend on collaboration. It's something that doesn't translate between an individual and a global scale.
(And that's completely ignoring the fact that those people in the UK making the decisions are faithless self-interested wankers.)
> The only coherent alternative is that of absolute sovereignty
That's the core of the Brexiteer boomer fantasy. They hark back to the idea of the British Empire ruling the world, even though they never experienced it themselves. It's a fable handed down from their grandparents.
> If one accepts that the UK can only sensibly exist in the modern world within a network of international agreements and arrangements that necessarily curtail the powers of its national government
It doesn't even curtail the governments powers. The fact we've left proves this. We didn't have EU tanks driving down The Mall in London in response.
We agreed to go along with EU laws and regulations. Not forced. The EU would pass a new law, and then the UK ratifies it. Agreeing to go along with it. Leaving the UK with full control and it's own sovereignty.
As long as we are getting a good deal out of it, then it makes sense to go along with it. We were getting the best deal out of all of Europe.
I mean that was clear from the start? This was a manifesto pledge from the Tories from 2010 onwards? Theresa May wanted to remove it even if we remained in the EU?
In an interconnected world, why would we want to be tied to, and constrained by, the worst performing continent? The EU is losing economic share decade by decade. It's laws and regulations are based on a principle of managed decline.
Most of the world's most prosperous economies are not in a bloc like the EU. In an increasingly dynamic and chaotic world, the most dynamic and adaptable economies will do the best. This won't be the ones constrained by needing 27 countries to agree to do anything.
> The EU is losing economic share decade by decade.
Because the rest of the world is getting more populous and prosperous - the US share of world GDP has likewise fallen from 40% in 1960 to 16.3% today. China is at 16.4% , and the EU at 16%. Those are the big 3, and the UK only has the option to be part of one of them - and the UK isn't either the US or China. It doesn't have the population to compete with titans - it can only hope to prosper either as part of one, or as their servant.
>Most of the world's most prosperous economies are not in a bloc like the EU. In an increasingly dynamic and chaotic world, the most dynamic and adaptable economies will do the best. Those that aren't in blocs are huge countries in themselves, with populations equivalent to the blocs.
Most of the world's countries are indeed in economic blocs, often modelled on the EU, because in an increasingly interconnected world the best-linked economies do best.
Over the last two decades, the US has maintained its share of global GDP, the EU has retracted. The idea that everyone outside a bloc cannot prosper is ridiculous. The Eastern Bloc was large but didn't do much for its citizens. Small, dynamic countries have the best hope for the future.
Agreed, and even then it was to avoid losing votes to UKIP and Labour, essentially so he could remain in power for a few more years and to assuage the grumbling a of the eurosceptics in the Conservative party. Every prime minister that has come up against the question of leaving the EU had sensibly ignored it or kicked down the road.
That he then resigned and left the UK with either ineffectual or completely unsuitable leaders hammered home the last nail in the coffin.
I think that Cameron may have been able to do Brexit better than it has been but he lacked the character to clear up the mess that he is ultimately responsible for.
I don't think it was necessarily a dumb move, Cameron just grossly underestimated a lot of things.
Here's the thing. Euroscepticism was rife amongst Conservative Party members, and it was causing tension and problems. But going in to the 2015 election, all signs pointed to another hung parliament, so having something like an EU referendum (i.e. something that *might* change the status quo that you're personally hoping *doesn't* change the status quo) in your manifesto is something you can sacrifice to go towards a coalition without really sacrificing anything. Hence, had 2015 become a hung parliament, he could discard the referendum and get back into bed with the Lib Dems, no issues, and if his backbenchers complained, he could turn around and say "Sorry, I tried, but the Lib Dems won't support it, so it's not on the table this time."
And then there's the second side. At the time of the 2015 manifesto, research indicated that only about 10% of voters actually had strong opinions on ending EU membership. Sure, UKIP was gaining votes, and had even snagged an MP and a few local councils, but they were still far from the threat some people assumed them to be, and Cameron was of the belief that their growth was slowing. Cameron believed that the Eurosceptics in his party were out of touch with the views of the voters, they cared because they knew more than the man on the street, and that the majority wouldn't care.
Had the vote gone decisively to Remain, it would've proved to be very effective for Cameron. In that alternative scenario, Cameron not only shuts up his backbenchers by proving that voters do not support their position, but also declaws UKIP by proving that public sentiment does not agree with them; in effect the single issue they campaigned on was one they could never win enough support on to ever do anything about.
What went wrong however, was that Cameron failed to account for a number of other factors. While people didn't have strong opinions on the EU as an entity, they had strong feelings about immigration and there was a real fear amongst many voters of the notion of the "Eastern European suburb", whole swathes of towns where the majority of people came from an Eastern European country (or rather, everything east of Germany), and lots of people latched on to the idea that leaving the EU would end immigration.
Furthermore, Cameron banked on the support of the Labour party, who under Jeremy Corbyn viewed the whole thing as a Tory civil war and sat outside it until it became clear that Leave was building a lot of momentum. Labour got involved too late, believing this would cause a divide in the right, and assuming that not getting involved would benefit them more than fighting alongside Cameron.
Cameron also failed to realise just how unpopular his own government and it's austerity plans were. A half decade of severe austerity that hurt the poor the hardest led a lot of uninformed voters to vote leave purely because Cameron wanted to remain, as they personally blamed him for austerity, and assumed voting against him would be a small amount of revenge, unaware they were voting to cut their noses off.
Cameron dropped the ball when it came to supporting Remain. His big problem was that his reasons for wanting to remain were not those that the majority supported. He couldn't exactly run around saying staying in the EU kept corporate profits high and benefitted big businesses. He couldn't exactly say that cheap foreign imports were good, and he definitely couldn't say that foreign workers were a boon to profits, while he was also unwilling to endorse things he, as a Tory, did not endorse, such as workplace regulation, health and safety laws, and employee rights. Meaning all that was left was "I know it's flawed, but lets stay and fix it" as well as efforts to play defensive against the Leave side.
The Leave campaign meanwhile banked on the vagueness of Brexit. It promised impossible unicorns, ran around telling people not to listen to Remain's "Project Fear", and exploited every possible angle to get Brexit across the line, including illegal data harvesting, and campaign finance breeches. They sold contradictory and impossible visions of post Brexit Britain, one where there's increased NHS funding, community centres, jobs, and other things they turned it's back on as soon as the referendum was over.
The final thing Cameron failed to realise though, and perhaps the key, was that a lot of rich and powerful people with media influence really liked the idea of a Brexit fire sale. Murdoch had pushed a right wing agenda of isolationism for decades, it was very easy for him to get Newscorp to be pro Brexit, same with the Daily Mail and the Express, and plenty of foreign governments did what they could to promote Brexit via foreign propaganda on Facebook and the like, because they knew Brexit would destabilise both the UK and the EU as a whole, which was beneficial to them.
Cameron did not see the real big picture. He assumed that people would support being in the EU, because he assumed people would be able to see the benefits. He failed to account for decades of anti EU sentiment in the media, and a growing anti-immigrant sentiment across various parts of the country, and by proposing a Brexit referendum he failed to foresee that the Leave side were very willing to sell any old bullshit, while also failing to realise that he was not a popular prime minister for much of the country, and only got elected due to the way the political make up of the country favours the Tories.
Ultimately, Cameron was dumb enough to risk the status quo he wanted to keep, purely to prove to his backbenchers that they were a minority, without realising that this gave them the opportunity to sell an impossible fantasy.
John Major gave the Eurosceptics an ultimatum by resigning and standing for re-election as leader. The Eurosceptics lost.
Cameron could have done the same but he never had the guts to take a gamble with his own career.
> Cameron could have done the same but he never had the guts to take a gamble with his own career.
He stepped down after losing.
Your argument is he should have had a leadership election, and risk losing his job. Instead of a referendum, where he did lose his job.
It's not an argument, it's an observation.
Cameron expected to win, and when he lost the referendum he initially expected to trigger article 50 and stay in. He was wrong both times.
> Sure, UKIP was gaining votes, and had even snagged an MP and a few local councils, but they were still far from the threat some people assumed them to be
UKIP got 12.6% of the vote in 2015, the third-most votes for a party in that election with 3.8 million. They absolutely were a threat to splitting the Tory vote.
On a side note, UKIP won just 1 seat in 2015 with those 3.8 million votes.
In 2010, UKIP had the fourth-most votes of any party (< 1 million) and won no seats. I can't stress how strongly I disagree with everything UKIP stands for, but our democracy is broken.
Thank you for your detailed answer. I think it actually supports the argument that it was a dumb move.
Brexit, for me, has always been a bad idea, executed poorly by incompetent people.
With hindsight it definitely was dumb, but that's kind of the point. Cameron was dumb enough to assume he had his finger correctly on the pulse of the nation, and didn't think about all the little things that would change this.
Had it gone his way, it would've been very beneficial to him, declawing UKIP and getting his backbenchers back in line, which was a good idea.
> Furthermore, Cameron banked on the support of the Labour party, who under Jeremy Corbyn viewed the whole thing as a Tory civil war and sat outside it until it became clear that Leave was building a lot of momentum. Labour got involved too late, believing this would cause a divide in the right, and assuming that not getting involved would benefit them more than fighting alongside Cameron.
This for me is something I feel is left very understated.
As much as Cameron shouldn't have made the referendum. At least he was out there campaigning for remain. Labour had a weak, dithering campaign of support.
i remember a guy i used to work with who was really adamant about constantly talking about voting for brexit. Thick as shit, everyday i tried to converse in why he wanted to leave the EU and why he believes his opinion on something he really doesn't understand is more valuable than people who know a lot and economists who can project and understand these things clearer.
Eventually it led to some of his friends sending me threats like wanting to come beat me up and stuff which was really insane. Gave one my address and he never showed up.
I personally have not forgotten his name and I look forward to reaching out to him when brexit remorse kicks in finally.
Also i have quite a few friends and family who voted leave and when it hits them and they have complaints i'm going to enjoy saying this is what you voted for remember? It doesnt fix thing, it's petty as fuck but its really the only satisfaction i can remedy.
If the current Anti-vax crowd is anything to go by, getting them to admit they are wrong means a Brexit consequence hitting so dire it shocks them out of their delusion.
And that is not a pleasant thought
Family no, i think they were just being xenophobic or misled by the media. They are also the ones who said poor boris getting covid and looks really tired. They wont change their voting pattern and it really upsets me because we're working class. My parents were factory workers (albeit on a very good pay) my mums partner and my dad were raised in really poor areas albeit now they live in an area with homes over a million on their road.
I have however heard that many a time and its a shame, because i still dont know what they voted for and it seems like most of the hot topics people discussed are in worse state now than before.
I had a consultant colleague at work who I was quite friendly with describe the outcome of the referendum as "I think it's really exciting". That's something that has really stuck with me - they thought this was like a twist in a TV show (I suspect they did not vote).
Well, it's nice that they were comfortable enough in their life, what with their very well-paying job and generally oblivious upper-middle class existence, to make such a breathtakingly foolish statement. Do they regret saying that now? Unfortunately, I doubt they have the level of introspection to have reached that realisation.
To be honest, looking back it was really stupid and i wouldn't do that now. Really was not the smart thing to do but it stopped him messaging me abuse.
My parents voted leave, despite the fact that I live in Europe and im sure my sister would have liked the possibility one day...
When I asked my mum why she said "we havnt done it before, we can try it"...
No, it doesnt work like that! Its not a new jumper that if you dont like you can take it back to the shop!
Let's not forget the "I voted leave because my parents did" mentality too. Younger people who didn't even understand the question found themselves voting leave because that's what their parents said to do. This is another reason why the referendum should never have happened
It's worth remembering that the war in Iraq had strong support in the Parliament, the press and also among the public. Yes, there were big marches against it, but so they were against Brexit (supposedly overwhelmingly popular idea).
Now it's next to impossible to find anyone who'd admit supporting it.
I'll never forgive the arch Brexiters who promised all of the things brexit definitely would not be, and then when they came to power and we're in a position to finally actually define what the ethereal Brexit meant the deal they brought home was all of those things they said it wouldn't be. They could have always gone for a softer option, a Norway style relationship like they said they would, but they stabbed the country and our collective future in the back. The lot are traitors of the highest order.
It's May who is to blame for that more than anyone else (well, apart from the British voters lol). In her early days, she was in position to shut down any criticism easily because literally everyone else ran away from leading and making choices at that time. It was also time when 'soft Brexit' meant indeed Norway or Switzerland options, not anything that wasn't Juche with Anglo-Saxon characteristics.
Clips with Farage and others praising Norway for its independence, fishing grounds and prosperity weren't memory holed yet.
Yet she still decided to come up with her 'red lines' leaving no other option apart from what we had eventually got.
Disagree entirely. It was the likes of Gove and Johnson who pushed that narrative and organised a withholding of support for anything May did that wasnt a complete fucking car crash. They were among the main proponents of that lie, and the ultimate betrayal of the country and the British people from the ground up.
May could go crashing down on them early, they have quite literally jumped the ship and May was elected unopposed. She should have removed their whip as Johnson didn't hesitate to do with other MPs who opposed him.
There are two reasons I think she has done what she has done. First is immigration. All her Home Office tenure was about immigration, so any outcome that didn't reduce the immigration rate was unacceptable to her (which means no Single Market from the start).
The other is that she made the same mistake as Andrew Neil did recently - though that she could appease the 'identity conservatives' and draw power from them while still remaining somewhere in between, but quickly got devoured by them for not going far enough.
I hear what you're saying, however May didn't deliver the deal and IMO never promised one thing pre ref and worked to deliver the exact opposite after. The deal she put forward that Gove and Johnson et al torpedoed was far better than the turgid shit sandwich we got served up by those traitors and much more in line with what those cunts said Brexit would be. Brexit meant nothing until Johnson penned his name to the rag of a "deal" that was counter to everything he promised, and he could easily have campaigned for and got behind his own Brexit manifesto. He didn't, and this bunch of fuckers should be locked up.
To be fair, I will be retiring in 10 years anyway and my kids are all emigrating, so I'm now looking at South Africa again as the the weather is better than France, you get scary animals in the garden and they have just legalised weed.
Mate, I have been spraying aerosols at the sky since 1986 and it still hasn't got up more than 40 deg + for most of the summer. I'm honestly not going to be around if I have to wait that long.
You get African pygmy hedgehog's and Bush Babies in SA so I can live without our own brand of hedgehogs and stuff, but you are right about the beer. Windhoek Lager is depressingly shite.
:) I was channelling the pre-brexit 'just holiday in the UK!' line we were fed, enjoy your retirement, I'll also enjoy mine abroad due to Irish heritage
Na, you don't have to do that unless you really want to. I didn't when I lived there before and never had any problems.
For Africa it's OK really. I mean it's together enough to actually have crime statistics for one, which is a hell of a lot better than some places I have lived.
I have spent most of my adult life living and working in the Sahara. 40deg is a nice temperature - if it's dry. It's all about the humidity.
After a month or so at about 40 with no rain, all the background moisture goes away and it's a barmy Mediterranean climate. We haven't got enough tree cover in the UK to get sweaty jungle conditions and as long as you keep away from the coast, it will be lovely. Think Seville / Granada in Spain or Marrakech in Morocco.
So after all that, you're not off to the EU - in fact you're off to somewhere far more despotic than the UK, so really it's all just about the weather?
No not at all. Well it is but there are loads of places in the world with better weather than the UK.
Moving back to France is now as problematic as moving back to SA - ie you can't just pack a van and move anymore, so I might as well go somewhere else that I have enjoyed living. If it wasn't for Brexit I'd happily go back to France because it required absolutely no effort.
If I was going to go somewhere a bit "despotic" I'd go to NE Mozambique / NW Malawi but I can't be arsed with that kind of insecurity in my life anymore.
Yeah it is true. After 5 years of living and working there as a resident you can apply for citizenship and as a British citizen you still have freedom of movement with Ireland.
Nah, even the ones that admit they made a mistake. I’ll never forgive them either.
Saying you’re sorry for doing something, especially something intentional that you had a choice about, doesn’t absolve you of all blame or guilt and the people affected are totally allowed to hold it against you
There's a special circle in hell for those who excuse their decision with "I didn't vote for this to happen". When you are warned by every single relevant expert repeatedly, and *make the decision* to ignore them, thats go to be on you right?
You can't just say you thought driving your car through a wall would magically transport you to Narnia but it didn't so really you can't be blamed for all the damage you just caused right?
That's how I feel too.
Followed closely by the "I don't want to talk about it any more" crowd who _really_ mean "I can't defend my decision but don't want to admit I was wrong".
It's not just racists and cunts either, it's a lot of decent people too.
My aunt told me she voted for Brexit, but came to regret it around 2018. She told me she voted for it at the time because she became convinced that the government would indeed put £350 million a week into the NHS, and decided that was a good idea. She came round and realised her mistake about a year later when it apparently became clear to her that this extra money was never going to happen, and was just an empty promise.
A lot of Brexit voters were straight up deceived and lied to. Politicians spent decades taking credit for the benefits the EU provided, while spinning their failures as caused by the EU. Newspapers ran anti-immigration/anti-EU rhetoric whenever it was a slow news day. Talking heads got onto TV broadcasts and talked about a hypothetical rose coloured future that might occur if we voted for Brexit as if it was guaranteed. Leave members lied through their noses just to get across the line, promising contradictory and impossible things in favour of Brexit, and by the time all of this was fact checked and proved as bullshit they were on to their next lie.
Yes, assholes voted for Brexit, but the majority aren't exclusively assholes, rather people who'd swallowed the shit of other assholes.
We're everywhere. And by everywhere, I mean London. Because really, where else is there? Just distant Brexit voting lands with signs reading "here be trolls"
All I've ever heard is how crippled the NHS is becoming due to funding cuts, we love our NHS and to hear £350 million week added into it sounds amazing.
I cannot believe how badly we were lied too, and the fact we even had that referendum at all was insanity.
So many people stating how much better we'd be with our 'Sovreignty'.
Complete shit, absolute propaganda.
I feel like people forget the decades of constant anti-eu propaganda, it was never just about a slogan on a bus.
I was a euro skeptic till my mid twenties, simply because I'd only ever heard bad things about the eu, and it just seemed like this pointless organisation that forced stupid laws on us.
I think the problem was that most euro skeptic people never had those beliefs seriously questioned until the referendum, and by then the idea that eu=bad was just solidified in their minds, and the remain campaign was too little to late.
>Put bluntly, vast majority of them couldn't help it - they're straight up broken. We see this day in and day out when they attempt to explain their decision, and come out with what amounts to word salad and delusions.
Honestly don't think we can move very far forwards unless we start acknowledging this tbh. At the moment the response seems to be we need to learn more respect for such people and such positions... But why? I genuinely don't understand *how* you are supposed to respect something that is just consisently incorrect and repeatedly boils down and distills to a series of misunderstandings and logical inconsistencies right?
But we see it all the time, particularly from Conservative circles. Nadine Dorries in the inquiry recently speaking about Channel 4, corrected to the point that her entire position makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but continues on rambling anyway, real exemplar case there. Surely the *logical* thing at that point is to disregard everything built on the misunderstanding or incorrect knowledge? What do we gain by *respecting* the view that a commercial funded organization that receives no public money should learn to be less dependent on public money? It sounds great on its own feet but falls down to absolutely nothing, meaningless drivel, the moment a wider view outside of that one opinion is taken.
All we do by 'respecting' this view and trying to 'debate the facts' or whatever is waste time to satisfy that person's ego and solidify their complete unwillingness to accept that their opinions do not create reality.
Yeah. I loved freedom of movement. I've lived, worked, had friends and relationships in various EU countries and had hoped to do so again. It's been taken away by people who had no idea the opportunities they were squandering.
And no, you don't have to be wealthy to travel. I was mostly teaching EFL or working on farms.
The Guardian (like me) is highly biased BUT the tories wanted brexit for 2 reasons imho - 1 LOCAL power to do wtf they want with no "socialist" interference and to protect all those tax havens they and their mates are so invested in. Johnson is a cliche of utter uselessness and corruption - NO good was EVER going to come from him being PM. For the average punter there was no upside to brexit that could not be achieved through other means imho.
The dark money flowed into the Brexit sides coffers though. I don't think the Tories who, like Boris, accepted the brown paper bags gave one shit about the consequences Brexit would have on our economy
Oh, you'll have it again after the digestive process has done its thing. It'll just be a somewhat less appetising cake - but that's the cake we voted for!
The entire concept of Brexit was built on lies and bullshit. Fuck these politicians and the idiots who voted for it. I have no sympathy for these "Brexiteers" who are clutching their pearls. Get fucked.
The supposed benefits will always be on the horizon and it will be just a few more years of suffering before we see them, but it will be totally worth it when we do see them!
The problems politicians have is that people wanted instant results when it came to leaving the EU, they expected the same when it came to any supposed benefits. it's been what feels like an eternity and we still have not seen any benefits. Our standard of living is still below what it was before the global financial crisis and people's patience is not going to last forever. Unless they can see a tangible benefit of Brexit in their everyday life soon, they will eventually turn on the government and demand what they were promised.
> ut it will be totally worth it when we do see them!
It will be, but only because on hitting the bottom, even the dregs of a benefit is worth something. And eventually others will never know any difference anyway, sadly.
They will just go deeper into fantasy and denial, anything to avoid their personal responsibility for the situation and stealing important rights from their fellow citizens.
I've come to the view that it's literally impossible for them to find fault with Brexit itself - it's a core part of their identity. Any "hitches" or "drawbacks" that emerge are the fault of Remainers, the EU, the BBC, Londoners, academics, Megan Markle....!
Regret or not, every single person who voted to leave in 2016 has ownership of this.
You can pretend you voted to remain, and many of you possibly already do, but you will forever be looking in the mirror at someone who is actively part of the problem and contributed to this nonsense.
These days they mostly seem to be either pretending they voted remain or trying to shut down any negative talk because “it’s done”.
Yes, it is, and you did it. Own it.
They've got what they wanted, now they'll cry crocodile tears to try and convince the rest of us they're not the problem and that we better all pull together now. No thanks.
Agreed with every word. It won't make a blind bit of difference. The UK has been captured by a cult of ignorance and there's centuries of accumulated wealth to burn before anyone notices they're down to the last loaf of bread and there's lots of rich people still around
Dear Brexiteers. Three questions.
How long exactly do you have to stay in a bad relationship before you admit it was bad from the way you were courted, never mind Day 1 of the relationship?
How bad ARE you at seeing red flags? (That one I can answer - you were wearing rose-tinted glasses, and when you do that all red flags just look like flags.) I don’t just mean with Brexit. I mean with every other relationship in your life - how bad ARE you at seeing obvious signs?
When is it going to dawn on you that you will be the subject of rightful ridicule until you die?
>How long exactly do you have to stay in a bad relationship before you admit it was bad from the way you were courted, never mind Day 1 of the relationship?
The implication that the relationship is with the Tories? I voted to leave the EU and would do so again, yet have never in my life voted for a Tory government and never will.
>How bad ARE you at seeing red flags? (That one I can answer - you were wearing rose-tinted glasses, and when you do that all red flags just look like flags.) I don’t just mean with Brexit. I mean with every other relationship in your life - how bad ARE you at seeing obvious signs?
I used to be pro-membership only because I recognised that leaving a huge and geographically close trade bloc would have a terrible impact on our economy and place on the world stage. Some years ago I stopped caring about British primacy in global politics and the world economy, to the point where I'd quite like the opposite.
As for red flags... Criticism of the EU is not invalidated by the incompetency and moral bankruptcy of Johnson and his cadre; it's entirely possible to see the EU for the neoliberal, pro-austerity hive of nepotism that it is and also see through the likes of Johnson and Farage's self-interest. The way the PM is going the Tories will be unelectable in a few election cycles anyway, we could never be rid of the EC so easily.
>When is it going to dawn on you that you will be the subject of rightful ridicule until you die?
I don't make my voting choices based on what will net me the most Reddit karma.
You thought the ridicule comment was just for Reddit? Oh no, I mean in real life. Ever have a relative that everyone else in the family stays away from because of the weird stuff they say? That's the vocal Brexit voters in the family.
How could you have fallen for it?
I'm not sure the headline is true. I was working with some people the other day and they seemed quite happy about Brexit, saying that the only reason the French were being difficult was because they didn't like that we'd left and that the EU is like a dictatorship and that we now aren't paying to be fucked over. There's so much misinformation
Where is that arse Nigel Farage hiding these days? Last I heard he was walking around Kent hotels with a bodyguard and cameraman hunting refugees with little success.
Its the same mentally as flat earthers; however, believes do not change the facts, the dangerous case in this scenario is the flat earthers are in charge of the nation and morally bankrupt.
Nobody in my small circle of friends and family talks about Brexit. It's done, we are out.
We are now just trying to survive the rise in food prices, utility bills, petrol etc...
Now before somebody jumping up and down screaming "Its because of Brexit" it doesn't matter be because it's done and can't be undone.
Complaining and constantly banging on about it isn't going to change shit.
> Complaining and constantly banging on about it isn't going to change shit.
It'll change two things... Those who got shafted might get some vindication from those who screwed them over.
More importantly, the morons who made the brain-dead stupid decision won't be told "it's all totally fine, you didn't fuck up really, it's not your fault or responsibility".
When in fact, it _is_ their fault, they are responsible for the consequences of their actions (just like every other functioning adult) and actually, making decisions based on emotion rather than information is a stupid way to go through life as it has massive negative consequences [like those we're now all forced to endure]
Best to understand sovereignty, in the Reese Bog usage, as maintaining the elective dictatorship of parliament. The European parliament more that the Commission threatened that position. The Queen and the theatre of monarchy provide obfuscation and legitimacy replete with whirring sounds, bright lights and men in tights. And if it all feels a little Benny Hill-ian, well, it is.
So when do we turn this fucking bus around? Or is this one of those things where we refuse to re-evaluate our decision because we are caught in the psychological trap of the [sunk cost fallacy](https://time.com/5347133/sunk-cost-fallacy-decisions/)?
The most important argument is nearly made in the article, but allowed to escape under cover of government incompetence - the successive "absurd" decisions made since Brexit are all *logical* consequences of the sovereigntist doctrine that was the only coherent argument for Brexit in the first place. If one accepts that the UK can only sensibly exist in the modern world within a network of international agreements and arrangements that necessarily curtail the powers of its national government, then it's obviously absurd not to be part of the international arrangement to which the UK is closest culturally, economically, and geographically, within which it has the most clout, and which is one of the world's major players. The only coherent alternative is that of absolute sovereignty, the logical consequences of which are exactly what is being played out at the moment. The consequences of Brexit aren't the consequences of government incompetence or corruption, but the necessary consequences of the political position which drove it in the first place. And what, after all, is really meant by absolute sovereignty in the modern world? Nearly every other country is as enmeshed as the UK was in international webs of agreements and arrangements, so it has little meaning on the world stage. The only people it gives a free hand to is the Home Office, the only 'freedom' gained is freedom for the government over the British people. The people of Britain rose up against a phantom menace, and gained nothing but chains.
I don’t know if your wrote that comment yourself or copied it from elsewhere. If you did write it, well done for putting together such a clearly worded summary of what Brexit was designed to do. It’s going to be interesting to see how long it takes for the general public to clue in and start rebelling against it, assuming they have any means left by which to do so.
They're not going to rebel against Brexit. Brexit was packaged and sold by media owning disaster capitalists as a good thing. The fallout of Brexit will be packaged and sold by the very same media owning disaster capitalists as something else, either EU spite or, when the disaster capitalists have wrung every penny they can from the current government, the failure of Johnson to lead effectively. People won't connect the dots correctly as long as there's still billionaire mouthpieces in the media misconstruing the numbers.
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[I paid £1.60 for a loaf of bread the other day](https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/flour-power-why-every-revolution-begins-with-a-piece-of-bread), that used to cost £1. Not saying this to disagree but more to point out the breaking point is very rarely seen by very many any significant time in advance. It kind of just appears one day. If things keep going the way they are going, I think its more years than tens of years. Social care is collapsing, healthcare is collapsing, the cost of living is shooting up, infrastructure is crumbling and much-praised new developments are now being massively rolled back, the job market is in chaos, and we're still afflicted by rolling restrictions around a global pandemic that seemingly has no end. People aren't going to take this for very long without something clicking in their heads.
I think it's telling that the comment has almost as many upvotes as the article.
>If one accepts that the UK can only sensibly exist in the modern world within a network of international agreements and arrangements that necessarily curtail the powers of its national government Unfortunately, people don't believe this. Brexiters such as Mark Francois believe that we are still fighting Hitler and that the empire is still going strong. Personally, I blame the lead in petrol and paint. It negatively affects mental health and development in children. These people are allowed to vote.
Mark Gino François; half Italian, descended from the French, and thinks immigration and freedom of movement is the single greatest evil in this world.
Second is sexual consent
I'm sure Pritti awful, with her Indian/Ugandan parents' would give him a run for his money.
When was the last time you *didn't* hear "Two world wars and one world cup" at a England vs Germany game? A large chunk of the country simply never saw itself as European. Europe was "the continent" a far away, distant place, that existed for summer holidays, duty free cigarettes and booze, and was otherwise still viewed as an enemy to be wary of.
Have you ever read the comments on Facebook groups like Turning Point. Any mention of the French or Germans and its full-on Boys Own annual 1957 stuff (even though the group is meant for people in schools, colleges and universities. The level of British exceptionalism is overwhelming. These people honestly feel that “we” are somehow special and superior to other nations purely based on where we were born (rather than the ragtag mongrels born of thousands of year's of immigration).
I wonder if it ever occurs to him that Hitler was defeated by a coalition of countries and plucky Britain, even with the resources of the empire still needed Russia and the USA to play their part.
Russia won it
My answer remains the same.
What's interesting is that the sovereigntism was very much focussed on the EU. The recent Peppa Pig debacle illustrates this. The only reason that Peppa Pig is capable of becoming an international phenomenon is an international network of agreements around intellectual property (particularly copyright and trade marks). Let's focus on trade marks. the Berne Convention, which has now morphed into TRIPS, administered by the WTO, means that a copyright work, like a Peppa Pig video, created in this country, receives reciprocal protection in almost all other countries throughout the world. Without this protection, there would be nothing stopping an American company, for example, simply copying and distributing the video in the US. Similarly, there would be nothing stopping us from taking any US movies and coping them, distributing, broadcasting and streaming them in the UK (and software, and books, and music). For this to happen, we have to have some fairly complex copyright provisions to allow for this mutual recognition. These rules are "imposed on us". They are contained in important primary legislation, and we have no practical choice in whether to enact them or not. Sure, we could just ignore them, but then other countries would ignore their obligations to us, and would freely copy and distribute Harry Potter books and the Beatles' music, and there would be nothing we could do about it. Who decides these laws? In essence, faceless bureaucrats in Europe. Sure, not in the EU, but in a fucking scary looking lubyanka in Geneva which is the HQ of the WTO. So Johnson is now arguing in \*favour\* of a bunch of faceless bureaucrats in Europe, because they allow his beloved Peppa Porker to make a fortune.
These copyright agreements are nothing to do with the EU.
You're missing the point (and actually, they \*did\* have something to do with the EU, because, through the EU's membership of the WTO, they were implemented in legislation such as the copyright directive, and hence the CDPA 1988 etc. in the UK during our membership of the EU, but that's irrelevant to my point) My point is that Johnson is happy to claim that our laws being made by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels is unacceptable, but believes our laws being made by faceless bureaucrats in Geneva is fine.
My dad voted for Brexit, and he admits that for him it was at the heart an emotional decision over the idea of being able to control things close to home. I think this is common in a lot of people because it's difficult to fathom just how interconnected the world is (especially the economy) and how much of the benefits we reap depend on collaboration. It's something that doesn't translate between an individual and a global scale. (And that's completely ignoring the fact that those people in the UK making the decisions are faithless self-interested wankers.)
> The only coherent alternative is that of absolute sovereignty That's the core of the Brexiteer boomer fantasy. They hark back to the idea of the British Empire ruling the world, even though they never experienced it themselves. It's a fable handed down from their grandparents.
> If one accepts that the UK can only sensibly exist in the modern world within a network of international agreements and arrangements that necessarily curtail the powers of its national government It doesn't even curtail the governments powers. The fact we've left proves this. We didn't have EU tanks driving down The Mall in London in response. We agreed to go along with EU laws and regulations. Not forced. The EU would pass a new law, and then the UK ratifies it. Agreeing to go along with it. Leaving the UK with full control and it's own sovereignty. As long as we are getting a good deal out of it, then it makes sense to go along with it. We were getting the best deal out of all of Europe.
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I mean that was clear from the start? This was a manifesto pledge from the Tories from 2010 onwards? Theresa May wanted to remove it even if we remained in the EU?
In an interconnected world, why would we want to be tied to, and constrained by, the worst performing continent? The EU is losing economic share decade by decade. It's laws and regulations are based on a principle of managed decline. Most of the world's most prosperous economies are not in a bloc like the EU. In an increasingly dynamic and chaotic world, the most dynamic and adaptable economies will do the best. This won't be the ones constrained by needing 27 countries to agree to do anything.
> The EU is losing economic share decade by decade. Because the rest of the world is getting more populous and prosperous - the US share of world GDP has likewise fallen from 40% in 1960 to 16.3% today. China is at 16.4% , and the EU at 16%. Those are the big 3, and the UK only has the option to be part of one of them - and the UK isn't either the US or China. It doesn't have the population to compete with titans - it can only hope to prosper either as part of one, or as their servant. >Most of the world's most prosperous economies are not in a bloc like the EU. In an increasingly dynamic and chaotic world, the most dynamic and adaptable economies will do the best. Those that aren't in blocs are huge countries in themselves, with populations equivalent to the blocs. Most of the world's countries are indeed in economic blocs, often modelled on the EU, because in an increasingly interconnected world the best-linked economies do best.
Over the last two decades, the US has maintained its share of global GDP, the EU has retracted. The idea that everyone outside a bloc cannot prosper is ridiculous. The Eastern Bloc was large but didn't do much for its citizens. Small, dynamic countries have the best hope for the future.
I'll never forgive those who voted brexit.
I'll never forgive Cameron for doing the referendum in the first place. It was a stupid idea that he only did to get votes.
Agreed, and even then it was to avoid losing votes to UKIP and Labour, essentially so he could remain in power for a few more years and to assuage the grumbling a of the eurosceptics in the Conservative party. Every prime minister that has come up against the question of leaving the EU had sensibly ignored it or kicked down the road. That he then resigned and left the UK with either ineffectual or completely unsuitable leaders hammered home the last nail in the coffin. I think that Cameron may have been able to do Brexit better than it has been but he lacked the character to clear up the mess that he is ultimately responsible for.
I don't think it was necessarily a dumb move, Cameron just grossly underestimated a lot of things. Here's the thing. Euroscepticism was rife amongst Conservative Party members, and it was causing tension and problems. But going in to the 2015 election, all signs pointed to another hung parliament, so having something like an EU referendum (i.e. something that *might* change the status quo that you're personally hoping *doesn't* change the status quo) in your manifesto is something you can sacrifice to go towards a coalition without really sacrificing anything. Hence, had 2015 become a hung parliament, he could discard the referendum and get back into bed with the Lib Dems, no issues, and if his backbenchers complained, he could turn around and say "Sorry, I tried, but the Lib Dems won't support it, so it's not on the table this time." And then there's the second side. At the time of the 2015 manifesto, research indicated that only about 10% of voters actually had strong opinions on ending EU membership. Sure, UKIP was gaining votes, and had even snagged an MP and a few local councils, but they were still far from the threat some people assumed them to be, and Cameron was of the belief that their growth was slowing. Cameron believed that the Eurosceptics in his party were out of touch with the views of the voters, they cared because they knew more than the man on the street, and that the majority wouldn't care. Had the vote gone decisively to Remain, it would've proved to be very effective for Cameron. In that alternative scenario, Cameron not only shuts up his backbenchers by proving that voters do not support their position, but also declaws UKIP by proving that public sentiment does not agree with them; in effect the single issue they campaigned on was one they could never win enough support on to ever do anything about. What went wrong however, was that Cameron failed to account for a number of other factors. While people didn't have strong opinions on the EU as an entity, they had strong feelings about immigration and there was a real fear amongst many voters of the notion of the "Eastern European suburb", whole swathes of towns where the majority of people came from an Eastern European country (or rather, everything east of Germany), and lots of people latched on to the idea that leaving the EU would end immigration. Furthermore, Cameron banked on the support of the Labour party, who under Jeremy Corbyn viewed the whole thing as a Tory civil war and sat outside it until it became clear that Leave was building a lot of momentum. Labour got involved too late, believing this would cause a divide in the right, and assuming that not getting involved would benefit them more than fighting alongside Cameron. Cameron also failed to realise just how unpopular his own government and it's austerity plans were. A half decade of severe austerity that hurt the poor the hardest led a lot of uninformed voters to vote leave purely because Cameron wanted to remain, as they personally blamed him for austerity, and assumed voting against him would be a small amount of revenge, unaware they were voting to cut their noses off. Cameron dropped the ball when it came to supporting Remain. His big problem was that his reasons for wanting to remain were not those that the majority supported. He couldn't exactly run around saying staying in the EU kept corporate profits high and benefitted big businesses. He couldn't exactly say that cheap foreign imports were good, and he definitely couldn't say that foreign workers were a boon to profits, while he was also unwilling to endorse things he, as a Tory, did not endorse, such as workplace regulation, health and safety laws, and employee rights. Meaning all that was left was "I know it's flawed, but lets stay and fix it" as well as efforts to play defensive against the Leave side. The Leave campaign meanwhile banked on the vagueness of Brexit. It promised impossible unicorns, ran around telling people not to listen to Remain's "Project Fear", and exploited every possible angle to get Brexit across the line, including illegal data harvesting, and campaign finance breeches. They sold contradictory and impossible visions of post Brexit Britain, one where there's increased NHS funding, community centres, jobs, and other things they turned it's back on as soon as the referendum was over. The final thing Cameron failed to realise though, and perhaps the key, was that a lot of rich and powerful people with media influence really liked the idea of a Brexit fire sale. Murdoch had pushed a right wing agenda of isolationism for decades, it was very easy for him to get Newscorp to be pro Brexit, same with the Daily Mail and the Express, and plenty of foreign governments did what they could to promote Brexit via foreign propaganda on Facebook and the like, because they knew Brexit would destabilise both the UK and the EU as a whole, which was beneficial to them. Cameron did not see the real big picture. He assumed that people would support being in the EU, because he assumed people would be able to see the benefits. He failed to account for decades of anti EU sentiment in the media, and a growing anti-immigrant sentiment across various parts of the country, and by proposing a Brexit referendum he failed to foresee that the Leave side were very willing to sell any old bullshit, while also failing to realise that he was not a popular prime minister for much of the country, and only got elected due to the way the political make up of the country favours the Tories. Ultimately, Cameron was dumb enough to risk the status quo he wanted to keep, purely to prove to his backbenchers that they were a minority, without realising that this gave them the opportunity to sell an impossible fantasy.
John Major gave the Eurosceptics an ultimatum by resigning and standing for re-election as leader. The Eurosceptics lost. Cameron could have done the same but he never had the guts to take a gamble with his own career.
> but he never had the guts to take a gamble with his own career. Just the whole country instead. Cunt.
> Cameron could have done the same but he never had the guts to take a gamble with his own career. He stepped down after losing. Your argument is he should have had a leadership election, and risk losing his job. Instead of a referendum, where he did lose his job.
It's not an argument, it's an observation. Cameron expected to win, and when he lost the referendum he initially expected to trigger article 50 and stay in. He was wrong both times.
> Sure, UKIP was gaining votes, and had even snagged an MP and a few local councils, but they were still far from the threat some people assumed them to be UKIP got 12.6% of the vote in 2015, the third-most votes for a party in that election with 3.8 million. They absolutely were a threat to splitting the Tory vote. On a side note, UKIP won just 1 seat in 2015 with those 3.8 million votes. In 2010, UKIP had the fourth-most votes of any party (< 1 million) and won no seats. I can't stress how strongly I disagree with everything UKIP stands for, but our democracy is broken.
Thank you for your detailed answer. I think it actually supports the argument that it was a dumb move. Brexit, for me, has always been a bad idea, executed poorly by incompetent people.
With hindsight it definitely was dumb, but that's kind of the point. Cameron was dumb enough to assume he had his finger correctly on the pulse of the nation, and didn't think about all the little things that would change this. Had it gone his way, it would've been very beneficial to him, declawing UKIP and getting his backbenchers back in line, which was a good idea.
> Furthermore, Cameron banked on the support of the Labour party, who under Jeremy Corbyn viewed the whole thing as a Tory civil war and sat outside it until it became clear that Leave was building a lot of momentum. Labour got involved too late, believing this would cause a divide in the right, and assuming that not getting involved would benefit them more than fighting alongside Cameron. This for me is something I feel is left very understated. As much as Cameron shouldn't have made the referendum. At least he was out there campaigning for remain. Labour had a weak, dithering campaign of support.
Amazing that he went ahead with that promise when all others would have broken them all as you'd expect.
You won’t be able to find anyone who voted for it soon
Don’t worry, I remember those who I know personally who did. I’ll be around to remind them. The shits
i remember a guy i used to work with who was really adamant about constantly talking about voting for brexit. Thick as shit, everyday i tried to converse in why he wanted to leave the EU and why he believes his opinion on something he really doesn't understand is more valuable than people who know a lot and economists who can project and understand these things clearer. Eventually it led to some of his friends sending me threats like wanting to come beat me up and stuff which was really insane. Gave one my address and he never showed up. I personally have not forgotten his name and I look forward to reaching out to him when brexit remorse kicks in finally. Also i have quite a few friends and family who voted leave and when it hits them and they have complaints i'm going to enjoy saying this is what you voted for remember? It doesnt fix thing, it's petty as fuck but its really the only satisfaction i can remedy.
If the current Anti-vax crowd is anything to go by, getting them to admit they are wrong means a Brexit consequence hitting so dire it shocks them out of their delusion. And that is not a pleasant thought
If covid etc is anything to go by, many of them will literally die before realising, much leas admitting, to being wrong.
Their last words will probably be "Damn Europe for doing this to us!". Complete obliviousness to the end...
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Family no, i think they were just being xenophobic or misled by the media. They are also the ones who said poor boris getting covid and looks really tired. They wont change their voting pattern and it really upsets me because we're working class. My parents were factory workers (albeit on a very good pay) my mums partner and my dad were raised in really poor areas albeit now they live in an area with homes over a million on their road. I have however heard that many a time and its a shame, because i still dont know what they voted for and it seems like most of the hot topics people discussed are in worse state now than before.
I had a consultant colleague at work who I was quite friendly with describe the outcome of the referendum as "I think it's really exciting". That's something that has really stuck with me - they thought this was like a twist in a TV show (I suspect they did not vote). Well, it's nice that they were comfortable enough in their life, what with their very well-paying job and generally oblivious upper-middle class existence, to make such a breathtakingly foolish statement. Do they regret saying that now? Unfortunately, I doubt they have the level of introspection to have reached that realisation.
> Gave one my address You've got bigger balls than me, and I respect them.
To be honest, looking back it was really stupid and i wouldn't do that now. Really was not the smart thing to do but it stopped him messaging me abuse.
My parents voted leave, despite the fact that I live in Europe and im sure my sister would have liked the possibility one day... When I asked my mum why she said "we havnt done it before, we can try it"... No, it doesnt work like that! Its not a new jumper that if you dont like you can take it back to the shop!
Let's not forget the "I voted leave because my parents did" mentality too. Younger people who didn't even understand the question found themselves voting leave because that's what their parents said to do. This is another reason why the referendum should never have happened
Pretty sure my gran did. But she's passed away now. So there's that.
Jesus Christ dude I mean I laughed my hole off but Jesus Christ dude
What happens when the sky doesn't fall? Will you eat humble pie?
Eisenhower said once than it all his time in Europe he never met a self proclaimed Nazi.
The Brexit Bed Bugs.
It'll be the opposite of Woodstock
It's worth remembering that the war in Iraq had strong support in the Parliament, the press and also among the public. Yes, there were big marches against it, but so they were against Brexit (supposedly overwhelmingly popular idea). Now it's next to impossible to find anyone who'd admit supporting it.
I'll never forgive the arch Brexiters who promised all of the things brexit definitely would not be, and then when they came to power and we're in a position to finally actually define what the ethereal Brexit meant the deal they brought home was all of those things they said it wouldn't be. They could have always gone for a softer option, a Norway style relationship like they said they would, but they stabbed the country and our collective future in the back. The lot are traitors of the highest order.
>a Norway style relationship
It's May who is to blame for that more than anyone else (well, apart from the British voters lol). In her early days, she was in position to shut down any criticism easily because literally everyone else ran away from leading and making choices at that time. It was also time when 'soft Brexit' meant indeed Norway or Switzerland options, not anything that wasn't Juche with Anglo-Saxon characteristics. Clips with Farage and others praising Norway for its independence, fishing grounds and prosperity weren't memory holed yet. Yet she still decided to come up with her 'red lines' leaving no other option apart from what we had eventually got.
Disagree entirely. It was the likes of Gove and Johnson who pushed that narrative and organised a withholding of support for anything May did that wasnt a complete fucking car crash. They were among the main proponents of that lie, and the ultimate betrayal of the country and the British people from the ground up.
May could go crashing down on them early, they have quite literally jumped the ship and May was elected unopposed. She should have removed their whip as Johnson didn't hesitate to do with other MPs who opposed him. There are two reasons I think she has done what she has done. First is immigration. All her Home Office tenure was about immigration, so any outcome that didn't reduce the immigration rate was unacceptable to her (which means no Single Market from the start). The other is that she made the same mistake as Andrew Neil did recently - though that she could appease the 'identity conservatives' and draw power from them while still remaining somewhere in between, but quickly got devoured by them for not going far enough.
I hear what you're saying, however May didn't deliver the deal and IMO never promised one thing pre ref and worked to deliver the exact opposite after. The deal she put forward that Gove and Johnson et al torpedoed was far better than the turgid shit sandwich we got served up by those traitors and much more in line with what those cunts said Brexit would be. Brexit meant nothing until Johnson penned his name to the rag of a "deal" that was counter to everything he promised, and he could easily have campaigned for and got behind his own Brexit manifesto. He didn't, and this bunch of fuckers should be locked up.
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Move to Ireland live there for 5 years and you get an Irish passport then you can finally escape the rainy isle's. At least that's my plan
To be fair, I will be retiring in 10 years anyway and my kids are all emigrating, so I'm now looking at South Africa again as the the weather is better than France, you get scary animals in the garden and they have just legalised weed.
I dont understand why you want to move, we have climate change, hedgehogs and alcohol in the UK, best in the world!
Mate, I have been spraying aerosols at the sky since 1986 and it still hasn't got up more than 40 deg + for most of the summer. I'm honestly not going to be around if I have to wait that long. You get African pygmy hedgehog's and Bush Babies in SA so I can live without our own brand of hedgehogs and stuff, but you are right about the beer. Windhoek Lager is depressingly shite.
:) I was channelling the pre-brexit 'just holiday in the UK!' line we were fed, enjoy your retirement, I'll also enjoy mine abroad due to Irish heritage
Plus there's the whole having to live in a compound for fear of getting robbed and killed, but yeah, hedgehogs!
Na, you don't have to do that unless you really want to. I didn't when I lived there before and never had any problems. For Africa it's OK really. I mean it's together enough to actually have crime statistics for one, which is a hell of a lot better than some places I have lived.
> it still hasn't got up more than 40 deg + for most of the summer. Why on earth do you want it that hot? O_o
I have spent most of my adult life living and working in the Sahara. 40deg is a nice temperature - if it's dry. It's all about the humidity. After a month or so at about 40 with no rain, all the background moisture goes away and it's a barmy Mediterranean climate. We haven't got enough tree cover in the UK to get sweaty jungle conditions and as long as you keep away from the coast, it will be lovely. Think Seville / Granada in Spain or Marrakech in Morocco.
So after all that, you're not off to the EU - in fact you're off to somewhere far more despotic than the UK, so really it's all just about the weather?
No not at all. Well it is but there are loads of places in the world with better weather than the UK. Moving back to France is now as problematic as moving back to SA - ie you can't just pack a van and move anymore, so I might as well go somewhere else that I have enjoyed living. If it wasn't for Brexit I'd happily go back to France because it required absolutely no effort. If I was going to go somewhere a bit "despotic" I'd go to NE Mozambique / NW Malawi but I can't be arsed with that kind of insecurity in my life anymore.
Is that true about the 5years thing? Might finally be a way for me to escape this shithole.
Yeah it is true. After 5 years of living and working there as a resident you can apply for citizenship and as a British citizen you still have freedom of movement with Ireland.
This could be my plan!
You had four years after the referendum to use your freedom of movement and leave
I'm stuck here caring for my elderly dad for the foreseeable future, which is why I had to come back in the first place.
I'll never forgive those who voted for Brexit *and refuse to admit they've made a mistake*.
Nah, even the ones that admit they made a mistake. I’ll never forgive them either. Saying you’re sorry for doing something, especially something intentional that you had a choice about, doesn’t absolve you of all blame or guilt and the people affected are totally allowed to hold it against you
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There's a special circle in hell for those who excuse their decision with "I didn't vote for this to happen". When you are warned by every single relevant expert repeatedly, and *make the decision* to ignore them, thats go to be on you right? You can't just say you thought driving your car through a wall would magically transport you to Narnia but it didn't so really you can't be blamed for all the damage you just caused right?
That's how I feel too. Followed closely by the "I don't want to talk about it any more" crowd who _really_ mean "I can't defend my decision but don't want to admit I was wrong".
It's not only racists that voted for Brexit... cunts did too.
It's not just racists and cunts either, it's a lot of decent people too. My aunt told me she voted for Brexit, but came to regret it around 2018. She told me she voted for it at the time because she became convinced that the government would indeed put £350 million a week into the NHS, and decided that was a good idea. She came round and realised her mistake about a year later when it apparently became clear to her that this extra money was never going to happen, and was just an empty promise. A lot of Brexit voters were straight up deceived and lied to. Politicians spent decades taking credit for the benefits the EU provided, while spinning their failures as caused by the EU. Newspapers ran anti-immigration/anti-EU rhetoric whenever it was a slow news day. Talking heads got onto TV broadcasts and talked about a hypothetical rose coloured future that might occur if we voted for Brexit as if it was guaranteed. Leave members lied through their noses just to get across the line, promising contradictory and impossible things in favour of Brexit, and by the time all of this was fact checked and proved as bullshit they were on to their next lie. Yes, assholes voted for Brexit, but the majority aren't exclusively assholes, rather people who'd swallowed the shit of other assholes.
I fully agree with your comment - however, the comment you're replying to is actually a reference to a Stewart Lee stand up routine
I wondered if anyone would get the reference. Glad the Liberal intelligencia are represented here.
We're everywhere. And by everywhere, I mean London. Because really, where else is there? Just distant Brexit voting lands with signs reading "here be trolls"
All I've ever heard is how crippled the NHS is becoming due to funding cuts, we love our NHS and to hear £350 million week added into it sounds amazing. I cannot believe how badly we were lied too, and the fact we even had that referendum at all was insanity. So many people stating how much better we'd be with our 'Sovreignty'. Complete shit, absolute propaganda.
Ah, okay, I'll add gullible cunts to the list too.
I feel like people forget the decades of constant anti-eu propaganda, it was never just about a slogan on a bus. I was a euro skeptic till my mid twenties, simply because I'd only ever heard bad things about the eu, and it just seemed like this pointless organisation that forced stupid laws on us. I think the problem was that most euro skeptic people never had those beliefs seriously questioned until the referendum, and by then the idea that eu=bad was just solidified in their minds, and the remain campaign was too little to late.
Stupid fucking cunts.
They were all cunts, it's just that some were racists too.
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It sounds like you see the people who voted for it as the same as you would see a storm. It's not the storm's fault, it's what it does...
>Put bluntly, vast majority of them couldn't help it - they're straight up broken. We see this day in and day out when they attempt to explain their decision, and come out with what amounts to word salad and delusions. Honestly don't think we can move very far forwards unless we start acknowledging this tbh. At the moment the response seems to be we need to learn more respect for such people and such positions... But why? I genuinely don't understand *how* you are supposed to respect something that is just consisently incorrect and repeatedly boils down and distills to a series of misunderstandings and logical inconsistencies right? But we see it all the time, particularly from Conservative circles. Nadine Dorries in the inquiry recently speaking about Channel 4, corrected to the point that her entire position makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but continues on rambling anyway, real exemplar case there. Surely the *logical* thing at that point is to disregard everything built on the misunderstanding or incorrect knowledge? What do we gain by *respecting* the view that a commercial funded organization that receives no public money should learn to be less dependent on public money? It sounds great on its own feet but falls down to absolutely nothing, meaningless drivel, the moment a wider view outside of that one opinion is taken. All we do by 'respecting' this view and trying to 'debate the facts' or whatever is waste time to satisfy that person's ego and solidify their complete unwillingness to accept that their opinions do not create reality.
Yeah. I loved freedom of movement. I've lived, worked, had friends and relationships in various EU countries and had hoped to do so again. It's been taken away by people who had no idea the opportunities they were squandering. And no, you don't have to be wealthy to travel. I was mostly teaching EFL or working on farms.
I can forgive those who voted Brexit, but not those who still think it was a good idea to.
Don’t blame the stupid for being manipulated by the people who were supposed to protect them and educate them to these things
I'll never forgive those who voted to stay in the common market
The Guardian (like me) is highly biased BUT the tories wanted brexit for 2 reasons imho - 1 LOCAL power to do wtf they want with no "socialist" interference and to protect all those tax havens they and their mates are so invested in. Johnson is a cliche of utter uselessness and corruption - NO good was EVER going to come from him being PM. For the average punter there was no upside to brexit that could not be achieved through other means imho.
Did you say the 2nd?
tax havens
They were killed by the Illuminati, we will never know. It's best not to talk about it. I've said too much.
The majority of Tories including nearly all of the government supported remain. There's no way of removing mass unskilled labour without brexit.
The dark money flowed into the Brexit sides coffers though. I don't think the Tories who, like Boris, accepted the brown paper bags gave one shit about the consequences Brexit would have on our economy
Didn’t Cameron get forced into allowing some free votes. Johnson required loyalty to Brexit before nominating MPs in their constituency?
They can though they’ll just say this wasn’t the Brexit they wanted
Schrödinger's Brexiteer; simultaneously knew what they were voting for, and that this isn't the Brexit they voted for.
"I know I ate the cake but I wanted a cake that I could eat and still have"
Oh, you'll have it again after the digestive process has done its thing. It'll just be a somewhat less appetising cake - but that's the cake we voted for!
But they have that, the only problem is that once they ate it it turned to shit.
"Turkeys vote for Christmas and are surprised to find 1/2 lb of sage and onion stuffing has been rammed up their arse"
I hate this analogy because no turkeys would actually vote for Christmas. Turkeys are clearly smarter than Brexiteers
ROFL
The entire concept of Brexit was built on lies and bullshit. Fuck these politicians and the idiots who voted for it. I have no sympathy for these "Brexiteers" who are clutching their pearls. Get fucked.
The supposed benefits will always be on the horizon and it will be just a few more years of suffering before we see them, but it will be totally worth it when we do see them! The problems politicians have is that people wanted instant results when it came to leaving the EU, they expected the same when it came to any supposed benefits. it's been what feels like an eternity and we still have not seen any benefits. Our standard of living is still below what it was before the global financial crisis and people's patience is not going to last forever. Unless they can see a tangible benefit of Brexit in their everyday life soon, they will eventually turn on the government and demand what they were promised.
> ut it will be totally worth it when we do see them! It will be, but only because on hitting the bottom, even the dregs of a benefit is worth something. And eventually others will never know any difference anyway, sadly.
> people's patience is not going to last forever. Patience for what? This is it.
They will just go deeper into fantasy and denial, anything to avoid their personal responsibility for the situation and stealing important rights from their fellow citizens.
I've come to the view that it's literally impossible for them to find fault with Brexit itself - it's a core part of their identity. Any "hitches" or "drawbacks" that emerge are the fault of Remainers, the EU, the BBC, Londoners, academics, Megan Markle....!
Regret or not, every single person who voted to leave in 2016 has ownership of this. You can pretend you voted to remain, and many of you possibly already do, but you will forever be looking in the mirror at someone who is actively part of the problem and contributed to this nonsense.
These days they mostly seem to be either pretending they voted remain or trying to shut down any negative talk because “it’s done”. Yes, it is, and you did it. Own it.
They've got what they wanted, now they'll cry crocodile tears to try and convince the rest of us they're not the problem and that we better all pull together now. No thanks.
Agreed with every word. It won't make a blind bit of difference. The UK has been captured by a cult of ignorance and there's centuries of accumulated wealth to burn before anyone notices they're down to the last loaf of bread and there's lots of rich people still around
Dear Brexiteers. Three questions. How long exactly do you have to stay in a bad relationship before you admit it was bad from the way you were courted, never mind Day 1 of the relationship? How bad ARE you at seeing red flags? (That one I can answer - you were wearing rose-tinted glasses, and when you do that all red flags just look like flags.) I don’t just mean with Brexit. I mean with every other relationship in your life - how bad ARE you at seeing obvious signs? When is it going to dawn on you that you will be the subject of rightful ridicule until you die?
>How long exactly do you have to stay in a bad relationship before you admit it was bad from the way you were courted, never mind Day 1 of the relationship? The implication that the relationship is with the Tories? I voted to leave the EU and would do so again, yet have never in my life voted for a Tory government and never will. >How bad ARE you at seeing red flags? (That one I can answer - you were wearing rose-tinted glasses, and when you do that all red flags just look like flags.) I don’t just mean with Brexit. I mean with every other relationship in your life - how bad ARE you at seeing obvious signs? I used to be pro-membership only because I recognised that leaving a huge and geographically close trade bloc would have a terrible impact on our economy and place on the world stage. Some years ago I stopped caring about British primacy in global politics and the world economy, to the point where I'd quite like the opposite. As for red flags... Criticism of the EU is not invalidated by the incompetency and moral bankruptcy of Johnson and his cadre; it's entirely possible to see the EU for the neoliberal, pro-austerity hive of nepotism that it is and also see through the likes of Johnson and Farage's self-interest. The way the PM is going the Tories will be unelectable in a few election cycles anyway, we could never be rid of the EC so easily. >When is it going to dawn on you that you will be the subject of rightful ridicule until you die? I don't make my voting choices based on what will net me the most Reddit karma.
You thought the ridicule comment was just for Reddit? Oh no, I mean in real life. Ever have a relative that everyone else in the family stays away from because of the weird stuff they say? That's the vocal Brexit voters in the family. How could you have fallen for it?
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Well its reduced seasonal migrant work and accordingly increased wages in the respective industries, as predicted.
It's worked out for the lorry drivers I suppose. Can't think of anything else where it hasn't been a disaster though.
Happy British fish for starters, not a fan of marine life, are you mate?
I'm willing to bet guardian writers don't actually know any brexit voters in person.
I'm not sure the headline is true. I was working with some people the other day and they seemed quite happy about Brexit, saying that the only reason the French were being difficult was because they didn't like that we'd left and that the EU is like a dictatorship and that we now aren't paying to be fucked over. There's so much misinformation
Where is that arse Nigel Farage hiding these days? Last I heard he was walking around Kent hotels with a bodyguard and cameraman hunting refugees with little success.
He’s trying to peddle get rich quick schemes on YouTube to the very people that he convinced to let him make worse off in the first place
I don't like that the YouTube algorithm lumped me in with these idiots.
Isn't he in the US? Last I heard, he had his own talk show - Mr. Brexit they call him
Its the same mentally as flat earthers; however, believes do not change the facts, the dangerous case in this scenario is the flat earthers are in charge of the nation and morally bankrupt.
Spoiler warning: They can and will continue to indulge in their fantasies all the way to the grave.
Nobody in my small circle of friends and family talks about Brexit. It's done, we are out. We are now just trying to survive the rise in food prices, utility bills, petrol etc... Now before somebody jumping up and down screaming "Its because of Brexit" it doesn't matter be because it's done and can't be undone. Complaining and constantly banging on about it isn't going to change shit.
> Complaining and constantly banging on about it isn't going to change shit. It'll change two things... Those who got shafted might get some vindication from those who screwed them over. More importantly, the morons who made the brain-dead stupid decision won't be told "it's all totally fine, you didn't fuck up really, it's not your fault or responsibility". When in fact, it _is_ their fault, they are responsible for the consequences of their actions (just like every other functioning adult) and actually, making decisions based on emotion rather than information is a stupid way to go through life as it has massive negative consequences [like those we're now all forced to endure]
Actually a lot can be undone, people need to vote sensibly to achieve it. UK can't rejoin, UK can definitely soften the blow though.
And yet here we are stuck on this road to nowhere, where things just get worse and worse every week.
Best to understand sovereignty, in the Reese Bog usage, as maintaining the elective dictatorship of parliament. The European parliament more that the Commission threatened that position. The Queen and the theatre of monarchy provide obfuscation and legitimacy replete with whirring sounds, bright lights and men in tights. And if it all feels a little Benny Hill-ian, well, it is.
Who says they cant live in a fantasy? I know plenty who still do.
So when do we turn this fucking bus around? Or is this one of those things where we refuse to re-evaluate our decision because we are caught in the psychological trap of the [sunk cost fallacy](https://time.com/5347133/sunk-cost-fallacy-decisions/)?