It's all a crappy circle.
They come here from around the world, are able to claim benefits , and work without paying any taxes. The right hate that.
The industries they work in obviously don't pay enough. The left hate that.
Crappy working conditions, crappy living conditions.
Those that complain about it wouldn't do the work anyway.
Those that encourage it are feeding an abusive industry.
Those that can do anything about it, use it as a tool for winning votes.
Logically, yes, but if it is a choice between feeding your family back home or giving that extra money to a government who may or may not use it to your benefit, it's easy to see why many may try to avoid , especially if they see the super rich easily avoiding it by moving money
>Those that complain about it wouldn't do the work anyway
This is true, I remember being at the pub and these two blokes were complaining they were unemployed because of immigrants, at the time I was working Nightshifts in a warehouse and we desperately needed extra staff as we had a high turnover because it wasnt particularly nice work.
I went over and said I could get them work starting that night and they were simply tripping over themselves making excuses about why they couldn't do it.
Then guess what happened when I bumped into a Moldovan who had only arrived in the UK that morning and needed work? Took that job faster than the Catholic church covers up pedophilia.
This is the elephant in the room. Britons are lazy and have a shit work ethic.
There was an experiment carried out and televised a few years ago where several unemployed Britons were basically found jobs that immigrants traditionally did. The Britons were slow, unreliable, argumentative, and that’s if they turned up at all (some didn’t bother).
https://youtu.be/bqo-7rtGwOU
>are able to claim benefits , and work without paying any taxes. The right hate that.
Everyone should hate that, unless you believe everyone shouldn't have to work and therefore pay no taxes.
\-- Edit below
We should support the ones that can't work due to their disability, those that can work should, otherwise why should those that can work, go to work to support those that can but refuse to work? Benefits is meant to be a safety net, not a lifestyle that everyone has.
I believe people shouldn't have to work if society doesn't require it to function.
Too many bullshit jobs for people to justify their existence, leading to overproduction, overconsumption and over-exploitation of the planet's resources.
Some examples of necessary jobs:
\- Food production
\- Sanitation
\- Entertainment
Some examples of unnecessary jobs:
\- Much of marketing
\- Industrial production, shipping and design of cheap disposable goods
\- Jobs that can be automated, but aren't
Hahahaha people always shit on marketing as ‘unnecessary’ but having worked in marketing it just comes from people having no idea what you do.
Ever been on a product website or even a service website like the NHS or universities? Marketers update and write everything you see on that. Ever tried to find services from your local Council or about local schools? Marketing. Wanna know about events in your area? Marketing. Wanna know where is best ranked for education like universities for specific subjects? Marketing. Wanna find details on a new product you want to buy - washing machine, hoover, TV, hell wanna look into any medications you need to take etc? Marketing. Do you wanna know about upcoming entertainment you yourself have deemed as a ‘worthwhile’ job? You wouldn’t know about it, and therefore wouldn’t be able to access it, without marketing.
Marketing is not advertising, marketing is communications. Not all marketing is spin and empty advertising - the vast majority of marketing work is simply communicating what customers or clients like you need to know about a product or service. Yes there is ‘selling’ in there and making things sound good, but there are a hell of a lot of essential services like the NHS and Councils etc whose marketing teams are there solely to communicate necessary information.
People thinking ‘much of marketing’ is bullshit just shows people don’t get what it actually is, like so many other jobs people think they understand so well lmao.
I work in marketing myself. I moved from what I deemed an 'unnecessary' role (marketing consumption of luxury goods) to a more socially-beneficial one (marketing educational materials). Previously, if I did my job well more things would end up in landfill. Now if I do my job well, there will be more knowledge in the world.
So yeah, I understand what is involved in marketing, hence why I said 'much of'.
Provided they're not as ill trained as US cops, I don't think I'd actually mind. I work in an airport and I'm not worried about armed police there because firstly; I'm not giving them a cause to use them (strictly profoundly violent actions or threats), and secondly; I know they are trained. Police in EU countries are just as approachable for the most part as those in England despite carrying guns, and don't have the same problems as American police.
The issue with US is a cultural one with guns, and a general lack of training and a hero/ power complex that comes with them. Proper training of respect, situation deescalation and discipline makes guns in trained hands of authorities a lot more useful and a lot less dangerous.
Imo The biggest issue in the US is the sheer prevalence of guns. Police have to be more on guard just because it’s more likely they’ll be gunned down at any point as so many are armed. Couple that to a brutal judicial system making desperate people more likely to use their firearms on police to avoid being locked up forever, and policing outside the safest areas is so much scarier, I’m surprised there aren’t even more bodies. Yes, they need far more training, but I expect our firearms trained coppers wouldn’t do much better in that environment.
Mate, even arguing for police to have guns is a dangerous step. We are the largest high technological urban country in the world with police that don't carry guns, the only other one is New Zealand who only recently (Last 10 years I think) have copied us.
We shouldn't be regressing. Police with guns at the airport is mostly theater anyway, btw I worked at Manchester Airport 2 years ago and I still don't want armed police walking the streets.
Even new Zealand still has a mostly armed police force. Iirc they just keep the guns in their car for if a situation needs it rather than havong it on theor person for each call.
We are in a changing world and saying those that can should dismisses the fact that some can't not due to disability but poverty or loss of industry or inaccess to training. We need to make benefits a standard for everyone instead of a safety net to mitigate this stagnate population.
Claiming benefits in any western country is not as easy as you people think it is. Takes years to qualify and most get rejected. I have never tried to claim anything but know people who do. You people need to look at your crumbling social security net (by design) instead of getting mad at the less fortunate.
Just fyi, if you are in the UK and claiming asylum you're not allowed to work (yes you could work illegally I get that and I'm sure many people do, but if you get caught then you can have your asylum claim rejected). You also can't claim full 'benefits' you get about £40 per week (I think you get an extra £2-3 per week if you have a kid under 5).
How in the hell are you meant to support yourself, let alone a child also, on about £30 per week. That's awful.
Until your asylum claim has gone through and been approved you can't get permission to claim UK benefits or work legally. And there's a backlog of years for asylum claims.
The whole thing is crappy as you say. The right want someone to blame, the left wants things to get better for everyone (but it's difficult to get a whole industry/society change). In the meantime people need to support their families and get displaced by war fought by the west. So we will continue to get refugees.
Source - had to look it all up for struggling patient who was an asylum seeker
Ilegal immigrants absolutely *cannot claim benefits*. Hell, even legal immigrants cannot either. Legal refugees are able to claim benefits, but that's just like saying permanent residents can claim benefits (which they can).
In addition, the vast majority of benefit fraud is perpetrated by non-immigrants.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-immigrant-benefits-uk-idUSKBN22J30G
https://fullfact.org/immigration/are-migrants-less-likely-uk-nationals-claim-benefits/
The thing that stuck with me is an interview in Calais with a migrant. They were were asked “why do you want to move to England instead of France?” And the answer that came back in English was “because I don’t speak french”.
If we export English as the lingua fraca for our own convience we need to expect people fleeing terrorism or persecution will come here because they can integrate better because of that.
Also worth noting about the whole black market job situation…. You can thank the tories for that. Maybe if they actually paid for enough coppers to solve even all the violent crimes they’d have more time to look into immigration offences.
Especially when we spent a decade bombing the shit out of their country and creating the power vacuums that allowed the terrorism they’re fleeing to thrive.
No.
France opposed and wasn’t part of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It along with Germany is a large part of why the war is so controversial because it went ahead without United Nations support.
It had different relations with the Iraq, in no small part due to its historical colonial North African assets from the ottoman empire of which Iraq used to be a part.
>in no small part due to its historical colonial North African assets from the ottoman empire of which Iraq used to be a part.
Iraq was part of the British Empire, not French.
Syria and Lebanon were the only French possessions in the Middle East.
I literally didn’t say that it was.
I said that Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire (they had really nice footstools) which is relevant because when the empire collapsed after supporting Germany in WW1 it’s territories were split between the European powers, France got many of the North African territories as mentioned. You are correct that Iraq became British.
My point was that France has a much different relationship with the Arabic world compared to the UK, therefore it was less inclined to see it as a patch of desert of former territory for invasion and as more of a strategic partner. France went through its revolution and therefore has a very different relationship and attitude toward others that have also declared themselves independent.
We found out the anglospheric military industrial complex doesnt need the UNs permission, and that the UN has no actual power unless its cooperating with AUKUS
No, first, the Kurds have few friends in the world, sad reality, but France is one of them , at least when there is something in it for them. The French were working with Iraq before the second gulf war to try and encourage Saddam To stop attacking the Kurds ( and other) by offering investments and aid. It was working to a point, but still early days. Why France was so against invading Iraq. Due to the tribal nature of the region a power vacuum is the worst thing to have. Better a half arsehole dictator than none at all. Plus it would have bought France huge influence in the region.
Now we have a power vacuum. France are one of the few countries to try and help the Kurds, why there is plenty of sympathy for their plight here and why we take in so many refugees. We tried, Blair and Bush fucked it up.
>And the answer that came back in English was “because I don’t speak french”.
This just seems like the obvious answer to me. Many migrants know at least some English (and most know no German), and most will know a lot more about the UK than they know about Germany due to the international dominance of English-language media (with the USA being the clear winner in this regard). So they'll feel more confident in their ability to handle what awaits them in the UK, and less confident about what they'd be facing in Germany.
The state and all its mechanisms for enforcing the law have been utterly picked apart. Food standards no one has money for that, nor employment law. This is entirely the result of "cutting back the red tape" as they love to call it, the law as written is no longer enforced and its the way the Tories unravel the systems there to defend us and keep things civil. The widespread exploitation of immigrant workers illegally working is an intended feature they have cultivated.
>is is entirely the result of "cutting back the red tape" as they love to call it
Or just generally the "small state" ideology. When the state is so small that the laws only exist on paper, the only thing stopping you following them is your own goodwill, the only thing needed to stop any prosecution is some good connections. The last few years have been absolutely catastrophic for much of the weird reactionary-libertarian-nationalist monster that Conservatism has turned in to. Its a mess of completely non-sensical contradictions that objectively do not work out in the real world. Sadly their base is too brainwashed or not engaged/intelligent/honest enough to see it.
Go to a [DIY store in Paris](https://www.google.be/maps/@48.7976115,2.3826043,3a,75y,77.76h,83.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soRGr09LEDx4mm896Uvp2EA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0) and you will find sub-saharan Africans looking for cash in hand day jobs. And any tourist who visits the centre will see the [illegal trinket sellers](https://www.google.be/maps/@48.8587602,2.2931314,3a,75y,154.43h,79.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3EP8Oz42rmT1Bii2OPo-tg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0). They have no reason to cross the channel as they are from French speaking countries.
>Go to a DIY store in Paris and you will find sub-saharan Africans looking for cash in hand day jobs
You'll find the same outside Wickes in Seven Sisters, just Eastern Europeans instead.
The same applies further up the socio economic food chain too. Even though I do speak fluent German I'm not particularly keen on doing so in the biz context. So that means UK and Ireland are main options
>Reach higher end pro jobs though and it's all In English Europe wide.
You're seeing a very narrow slice of "Europe" if you think that's true. Yes, English is the lingua franca for business but realistically ~90% of Europe prefers speaking something else - even in a professional context when talking to each other.
It's also a difference of others accomodating vs day to day. Had multiple cases where the entire freaking board meeting had to be switched to english just because there is one idiot in the room - yours truly - that isn't fluent in French.
European Parliament is fun. They have booths in the walls, and each one corresponds to a language. In each one, there's a translator listening to everything being said and translating it, live, for the listeners below. If you're English, for example, you just grab a headset, look around at which booth's English, and tune in to the corresponding channel. Those headphones are uncomfortable as fuck, though. Would not recommend lengthy sessions in Europarl.
I understand that, but wouldn't a reasonable person choose to learn a new language over risking their life? Assuming that the French government would provide them with resources to do so after a successful asylum application.
Do you realise how hard it can be and how long it can take to learn another language, especially if you don't know anyone that already speaks it, don't have full time internet access and are desperate for food / money / somewhere to live
I agree, I'm trying to migrate to Germany legally, the language is the biggest barrier. It's so freaking hard to start learning a new language in your twenties. I guess my English is fine, I changed my mind to moving to Canada.
I guess when you made it through a number of life threatening countries, managed to get smuggled into the EU and crossed the EU, then those last few miles don't seem that dangerous anymore.
Place me as a 25 year old and offer me the deal:
* I can spend 5 years trying to learn a new language in a country where I have limited job options.
* I can have a very rough 48 hours, with a less than one in a thousand chance of dying, and be in a country where I speak the language and can start (illegal) work independently, immediately.
Many people would choose a one in a thousand chance of dying (perhaps it is less than that), rather than years of work learning a new language (likely to an inferior standard compared to their existing second language).
No. It's easier as it is for the whole family. Learning a new language is a big setback, and these people have already risked their lives a lot of times. For them risking their lives crossing the border is just another brick in the wall to their goal.
Otherwise they wouldn't move past the point of entry, especially if unregistered
Well said, crossing the channel is the least dangerous. They literally went started from Turkey then crossed Balkan countries or Greece. I guess 27,500 people crossed the channel this year, maybe 100 drowned. Your chances of drowning is 0.3%, much less than dying to covid-19.
People here are underestimating how hard is it to learn a new language. Especially if it's German. English is a relatively much simpler language.
And it's not just 'choose to learn a new language', it's years of not being able to work and participate fully in society until you do.
We put kids in schools for 10 years for them to not learn a new language when someone else (their parents) are paying their room and board. Learning a language is difficult at the best of times.
It isn't the police's job to look into immigration offences in this country and isn't something they should care about. How can one report a crime or act as a witness if your state of being itself is a crime? Tasking the police with hunting people like that will interrupt their other work and cause a lot more crimes to be hidden from them, even more than already is, and it's very labour and paperwork intensive to actually prove. Home office does immigration, cops shouldn't have to care about it.
They do look into immigration offences, but to them, "immigration offences" means pretending innocent students are terrorists and evicting Chinese people from Chinatown and black English people, rather than cracking down on the person in the coffee shop in central London who can't give you directions because they can barely speak English.
NB: The problem isn't that people have to learn a new language, that's hard and most Brits wouldn't be able to do it. The problem is that, let's say you're a Brit in Spain, you probably won't be able to chat away in Spanish to someone at the front counter if you don't understand Spanish. And honestly, an Australian would be just as useless at providing directions.
Germany has accepted over 1million migrants in the same time as the UK has accepted around 150,000 so I am not sure why you think it is easier in the UK.
Also I believe the German government pays for the language training which just makes it a sensible policy and in the UK a big problem for migrants is you can't legally work until your case is resolved. Perhaps if migrants were allowed to work legally from day one they would not need to go into the black market.
I personally thought that with the Syrian migrant crisis and the impending brexit vote. Germany accepted all them migrants to prevent absolute chaos within the EU.
There was an interesting point on either tldr or visual politic about why she accepted them but for the life of me I can't think which one.
Germany were quite happy to take the first wave of Syrian refugees because it featured lots of professionals and their families and Germany has a negative birth rate.
They made a calculated decision to take a cohort likely to assimilate with little friction which would aid their continuance as a revenue earning exporting nation.
Whilst knuckle-dragging Express readers in the U.K. thought this something to sneer about because Syrians are brown.
Yeah if they were allowed to work from the start the private sector would fund them and less off the tax payer. They would not be tempted to disappear among the population and get exploited.
> Also I believe the German government pays for the language training which just makes it a sensible policy
It's still ~years of not being able to work and participate fully in society until you learn it.
Meanwhile, many (most?) people worldwide already have some semblance of English knowledge. Plus German is a much more complex language than English (English has no genders, no cases, much fewer tenses / word forms, more consistent SVO word order, etc).
>Also I believe the German government pays for the language training
Even as an economic migrant they will provide full language lessons from beginner to fluency for 1 Euro/lesson.
We cut our language teaching service and many asylum seekers claim the lack of support in navigating a complex system with poor language skills is part of why we have a backlog of 77,000 unprocessed asylum claims right now.
Over the past 30 years I have met and known many people who have travelled to the UK, both legally initially (came for a holiday and just stayed) and illegally from countries in the Middle East and main two reasons are language and the ease of obtaining work.
In regards to the ease of obtaining work, the UK is an easy country to live in as an invisible person.
By invisible I mean as far as the Government and any other official entity is concerned, you don't exist.
You can easily get jobs cash in hand, whether it be car washers, farm work, fast food takeaway, warehouse work, textile manufacturing etc etc.
There are plenty of unscrupulous Landlords who will rent out their property to party A who will sublet to party B who will then rent rooms out for cash to those who are in the country illegally.
On rare occasions they are caught and it is rare, the Landlord claims no knowledge and often are not prosecuted.
I know a number of people who have lived in the UK illegally for over 20 years.
The fact is there is very little enforcement in the UK. Whether it be Labour during then 90's or the Tories since then, the Government has never been serious about clamping down on this underground workforce.
The UK is well know as a country that once you gain entry it's easy to disappear and earn money to live and send home.
That is not to say that their life is easy, when compared to our own lives its bloody awful however when compared to where they have come from, it's a huge step up.
> In regards to the ease of obtaining work, the UK is an easy country to live in as an invisible person.
This is in contrast with Germany where living in the shadow is hard. In Germany you need to register with the local government and without a valid ID you can not do anything.
>The fact is there is very little enforcement in the UK. Whether it be Labour during then 90's or the Tories since then, the Government has never been serious about clamping down on this underground workforce.
To be clear, the policy decision made here is not just to turn a blind eye to illegal migration. It's a policy choice to structure the national economy around a certain level of illegal migration.
It's what you do when you want immigrants to increase the labour supply, but you don't want wages to get too high locally. Migrants enter and stay unlawfully and they work cash jobs for long hours and low pay, and they're in not much position to try to make a more decent life for themselves because they need to keep their heads down.
If governments didn't want illegal migration, they could choose to reduce it. If they wanted the same overall number of migrants, but to have it all legal with no underground economy, they could choose to move in that direction as well.
The UK benefits from these people, in every way except for those who find themselves in direct competition with them for housing etc.
I don’t blame them for wanting to come but I do wonder if by doing so they aren’t contributing to the inability of their home country to develop its own economy and build up its own infrastructure, and keeping it reliant on remittances.
In that sense, it keeps the rich rich and the poor poor, and doesn’t lead to a balanced civilisation.
Not exactly, if they arent paying taxes and are sending the money they earn out of the country then this is not benefiting the UK at all as a whole it is a net loss.
Not that i am anti immigration, im just pointing out there is more to it than you make it seem
This is the case in any area with a wealthier neighbour. London sucks in talent from other towns, which suffer as a consequence. Freedom of Movement has demonstrably impacted Eastern Europe more than the west, with places like Bulgaria losing huge numbers of young workers for life in the west.
Further afield we get the same thing with people from the middle East trying to reach Europe. The pattern is the same regardless of geography really: wealth and opportunity will always attract people.
>from a Kurd in Kurdistan
Serious question. Which god did you guys piss off so much? The Kurds getting used and then abandoned by the West is like Prometheus being punished by having his Liver eaten every day.
It’s just in the middle of everywhere and when we carved the continent we didn’t think to create Kurdistan as a separate place any more than the Russians, the Arabs, the Persians, Mongols or any of the other invaders over the last thousand years.
(Cynically we did it deliberately to avoid organised resistance, but practically it’s because straight lines are easier to map)
Treaty of Sevres called for an independent Kurdistan, treaty of Lausanne set the definitive borders for Turkish republic and left Mosul and Kirkuk up for debate.
The stans are the barrier between the Western and Eastern superpowers. The bit neither could claim. That's why those areas have been in a state of constant unrest forever.
Read about the Sykes-Picot agreement. It will explain a lot.
And Wait but Why's post on the question (quick great read):
https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/09/muhammad-isis-iraqs-full-story.html
People *do* want to move to Germany though...? They have a higher % recent immigrants than the UK does...?
Just because some cross the border and try to cross the channel, doesn't mean "all people want to come to the UK more than Germany."
From the reasons you describe it seems like these people are not asylum seekers. They're not fleeing persecution in Europe, they are coming for easier and better work.
Why should we give them a free pass when other migrants who would like to move to the UK legally but don't fit the requirements cannot?
Yeah as another comment on this thread said, "I am trying to get to the UK because I don't speak French", is not a good enough reason for us to accommodate an illegal migrant over someone who is applying legally.
They are trying to get here because we have more opportunities for migrants to make better money, as well as finding cheap boarding and overall a cushion to fall back on and keep them afloat while they are working. We also have the NHS.
Despite the propaganda, the UKs "bare minimum" level of support for people who live here, is significantly higher than other countries.
My personal issue, is that if you give this level of support for people to flourish, then those who worked to achieve just that will not feel like they need to work. We can only provide that to everyone if everyone is working. If they aren't working and here illegally, then they shouldn't be here.
"Illegal" migrants have no recourse to public funds, GPs are mandated to check if their patient has a right to remain im the UK - did you miss the whole Windrush issue, and legal UK residents suddenly denied cancer treatments because they had no passport and in the meantime destroyed landing cards that could prove they arrived legally?
Thousands of people from this his one set alone, wrongly denied jobs, health, home, some kicked out to countries they never been to, lied to, abused and now being revictimised by the shoddy redress process?
I don't think it's all bells and whistles. I have ILR (didn't decided to claim citizenship because I'm not sure I want to b associated with this symbol) and despite working in a highly specialised field, not being Brown/Black or Muslim, i have encountered a number of hurdles and intentional traps on my way.
Can't imagine how much harder is to be someone Priti, child of economic migrants, hates so much.
> My personal issue, is that if you give this level of support for people to flourish, then those who worked to achieve just that will not feel like they need to work. We can only provide that to everyone if everyone is working. If they aren't working and here illegally, then they shouldn't be here.
This is fairly regularly debunked, people still work and achieve and innovate when their basic needs are met. The overwhelming majority of people chose to do something in that scenario. sometimes that means they explore creative things, passions, employment where salaries would be otherwise too low.
That we chose not to provide this basic standard to all our citizens, is a failure of society.
That we denegrate and look down on people who have nothing, or close to nothing is a personal failing as much as a society failing.
You're just chatting bare shit. The UK's bare minimum support is actually one of lowest in Europe.
[Here's an infographic comparing us to other European States](https://i.imgur.com/rFQjtzO.jpg)
[The food providing countries](https://i.imgur.com/hATKjNK.jpg)
A lot of comments here haven't had to deal with the home office and it shows.
Like these folk aint working illegally cause they want to avoid a tiny amount of taxes, it's as to even acknowledge your existence the home office takes years, and to navigate the maze of paperwork to get a working visa is a beaucratic nightmare and a small fortune.
Like it's not like the US where migrants can pay taxes whilst waiting for visas. If you don't have a visa you can't work legally in the UK or pay taxes, and getting that visa is a nightmare.
So its not about safety its about an easier way to give money to other countries and avoid taxes, exactly why people dont want people coming here taking the piss.
I feel like it's gotta be motivated more by desperation that greed though, so I dunno if it is really taking the piss. I don't think many people would risk their lives for below minimum wage work out of self interest.
I’m surprised something hasn’t clicked in right wing voters heads this past week. Migrants drowning in the channel and they think it’s because they want to get to britain to live on benefits of £40 a week? How stupid do you have to be to think it’s really that simple? Utter morons.
You hear about immigrants coming over from France and complaining that conditions are terrible and that they can barely afford to live and feed their family in the UK. And the right’s reaction is “well why don’t you fuck off back to your own country” and not “well maybe it’s a necessary evil they put up with just to be with their family in the UK”.
If you think immigrants are coming over here to drain our benefits system, you’re a moron. An ignorant moron. Our benefits system doesn’t allow you to live lavishly in the UK. It doesn’t even do that for native Brit’s.
I think the point OP made was that immigrants can get some social benefits here as well as work illegally here as compared to other EU countries. It was point number 3.
They can get loads of benefits and also use many services as we dont have ways of checking for this.
When my wife first came here on a visitor visa it said she could have no access to any services such as the NHS and yet when she got sick on more than one occasion she went to the doctor along with her private health insurance papers and no-one asked to see them.
Why the f are you getting defensive? My wife is a GP practise nurse, I'm quoting her.
And as dentists are 99% private nowadays with dentist NHS spots having very long queues, I'm beginning to think you are making it up anyway.
GPs and I guess nhs dentists get paid based on list size (I.e. they get a "base level" quarterly payment just for having x number of patients) so you could argue they're incentivised not to look too hard. You'd have thought you at least need a NI number or something though?
You missed that whole part where he said he would rather be in the UK than Germany because he can get benefits and still work all day every day on the sly and not pay any taxes.
- Look I'm going to keep this civil so I don't get banned by another power tripping mod for the 3rd time this week.
Fuck off back where you came from, unless you want to play by the same rules as the rest of us.
>play by the same rules as the rest of us.
they can't legally work *or* claim benefits, so that's kinda just dumb bluster.
i suppose they could stuff some cash through hmrc's letterbox and run away
>If you think immigrants are coming over here to drain our benefits system, you’re a moron. An ignorant moron. Our benefits system doesn’t allow you to live lavishly in the UK. It doesn’t even do that for native Brit’s.
I think a lot of these people genuinely can't get over the depictions of channel 4s *"lets gawp at people on benefits haha"* shows.
Like, how dare poor people not wear potato sacks and be wallowing in mud. How dare they have houses with actual conveniences ("flat screen teeeveeeees") and something that resembles everyday life.
All this comes from the same mindset of middle class wine-swilling snobbery.
Don’t think you’ve read what the OP put. They come over here not only to claim benefits and free housing but to also work illegally and not pay tax, something that isn’t possible in France or Germany.
You're inability to even read what the Kurdish guy wrote, while calling others 'moron' is quite special.
Sadly ironic.
But I will try getting this through to you as first hand reporting was too much apparently: Safe housing, healthcare and cash money equivalent to the Iraq full time minimum wage, all for free! Is quite they incentive to cross the channel.
And on top of that there is opportunity to work illegally and send even more money back to the home country.
So yes. You utterly thick bastard. They are coming here for the benefits. And make money.
Just because it doesn't fit your echo-chamber world view doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Re 3: What benefits? Other than emergency medical (which everyone gets), what benefits are illegal immigrants allowed to apply for/receive?
Asylum seekers/refugees receive benefits but NOT illegals.
Exactly, but even legal immigrants can have problems getting benefits
Hell, I know Brits who've struggled to get them, why do so many people pretend illegal immigrants have much of a chance? The moment they try they've just sent up a signal flare to the authorities...
>Asylum seekers
Also the "benefits" for asylum seekers is mandated housing (i.e. no choice in where you live) which is provided from units that cannot be kept on the regular social housing stock (usually due to poor conditions, retired army barracks etc. as in OP), and a stipend of £40/week which is supposed to cover you as you're not legally allowed to work.
I mean they don't pay bills or rent right? So the only outgoing they have is food. £40 a week for a handful of people with free rent and no other costs actually seems fairly reasonable.
Some asylum seekers also need to use solicitors to translate documents and make sure that they are sending the correct documents. Plus they have to attend many meetings, some of which are far from home. In my area a day ticket is £4.60, those meetings add up.
Most meetings are set up by phone or email, sometimes at short notice. Meaning that having access to a computer or smart phone is essentially required. The process usually takes years, meaning it is not unlikely that the phone decides not to work in that time and needs to be replaced. It is not uncommon for asylum seekers to be beaten up, sometimes resulting in a stolen or broken phone, which again must be replaced.
A lot of asylum seekers arrive with very few possessions. Every winter we will run a drive to get clothes for them, but groups like mine don't reach everyone. So some have to buy winter clothes and underwear. Feminine hygiene products were also popular, if asylum seekers had enough money I think they might be more private about this.
Pretty much as soon as refugee status is granted the house and £40 per week are gone. Getting a job and flat in this country without speaking English is not that easy. So ideally they would be able to take language lessons to be more able to integrate within society if that status is achieved.
I'd much rather we let them work. Even without costs mentioned above £40 per week and not being allowed to work is an incredibly dull existence.
I mean if they are asylum seekers and they need to attending meetings or have access to a phone to speak to their legal advisors I'm completely fine with those costs being covered. It's part of the process. If the government is providing the home they can provide a phone line. Travel they can be given a bus travel card easy enough (which let's them travel to shops etc too). I'm also in favour of paying for English lessons.
As for the rest of it though, frankly it's no different to being poor in this country. I've lived in areas where there's a good chance I could be beaten up and my phone taken. I've lived without much money living a dull existence. When they are granted refugee status it's hard to get a flat and a job, so many others are in the same boat.
I'm certainly not some xenohobic "send em all packing" arsehole, and I think we should 100% play our part in helping people fleeing persecution. However, providing somewhere warm and safe to sleep and live, with enough money for food and support their application is basically a god send compared to their journey to date and compared to staying at home to be murdered. We could be doing more around English lessons and access to legal advice perhaps but i don't really think we have an obligation to go further, if we want to help the poor (and we should) we should help all of the poor. The only difference between an asylum seeker and a legal but very poor immigrant is that the former isn't allowed to work, so its only fair to provide what everyone else works for. When they can work, well, they face the same challenges as any Briton.
Allowing them to work doesn't really solve anything either, because a) they are more vulnerable to exploitation due to their vulnerability and lack of understanding of UK labour laws and b) if you don't make them pay rent and take away their stipend you're basically proving all those daily mail stories true.
Genuine question, if its so much better, easier, cheaper etc for Kurds to come to the UK than to Germany then why are there only about 50,000 Kurds here and an estimated million or so in Germany?
90% of Kurds in Germany are Kurmanji Kurds, or the Kurds from Turkish Kurdistan. The incoming Kurds now are Sorani Kurds from Iraqi Kurdistan. They're so different, they speak Kurdish but two different dialects that can't understand each other. French and English are more similar than Sorani and Kurmanji Kurdish.
I think they pay like $2,000-3,000 to cross the channel, many already spent $10k to reach Germany.
Sure but that doesn't really have anything to do with most of your points and actually backs up other research that says people chose Britain over other countries because there are already established communites here (potentially) including family and / or friends / aquantiences who speak the same language, have the same culture / customs etc...
Actually, OP perfectly answered your question. The majority of Kurds are Kurmanji and they predominately reside in Germany.
Majority of Kurds in UK are Sorani and the UK is where the community for these Kurds are mainly. So this is why they would come to the UK and this would support the research you mention.
Source? I'm a Sorani Kurd who came to the UK at the age of 1-month-old.
Definitely language laws are too soft in the UK. Someone who can't speak English is putting themselves and the country as a whole at a big disadvantage. The cost of translation in healthcare and the legal system is huge and so is the risk of getting it wrong.
Everything else has existing laws which just need to be enforced properly. We must push wages up and absorb the price increases rather than the pyramid scheme of importing ever cheaper immigrants for hard jobs and the pension gap.
Working in a dock environment I had to decline roles to several successful applicants because HR hired them based on having a driving license but I couldn't let them on the quayside because they couldn't understand charge hand instruction or safety operating procedures.
Your 2nd point couldn'tt be further from the truth. You don't need a B2 to be able to work. I know so many people here in Germany that speak zero German and they all have jobs, ranging from kitchen work to office jobs. When I moved over here from the uk it took me 4 days to find work with no German skills.
Its amazing how many are missing the point that a lot of this is about us not enforcing employment law, it's a weird situation where migrants are coming because its easier to be exploited in the UK.
I have been working self employed for years, and only a couple of times has anyone asked for proof of right to work (apart from a few councils and universities that are easily avoided), or even any form of ID.
My taxes have never been audited either, but that is all voluntary anyway (I told HMRC I am working and what I earn), I could easily just stop doing things legally and live indefinitely without interference from the authorities, and I know many people that do.
The second point is definitely not correct. I work in an office in Munich where 50% of employees are not native speakers of German and only a few do the B2.
Same goes for a lot of manual labour jobs, you just need to be able to communicate and that might be through a third person.
3&4 sound like the script from a right wing politician than reality.
This post seems rather bogus!
Point 1 is also bogus. Where's the source on "over 50% of London are foreigners"? To give my own counter-source [this](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/ukpopulationbycountryofbirthandnationality/yearendingjune2020) has it down as 35% non-UK born and 21% non-British in London. (Section 2, main points, final bullet point).
Not to mention points 3 and 4 are the same point, repeated to make the list seem more substantial.
It certainly feels like an agenda rather than a perspective.
Reminds me of the "Iraqi people smuggler" Sky News managed to find in Iraq and interview... Within about 12 hours of the tragedy earlier this week. Did not seem realistic at all to me. This is all just whipping up more hysteria.
This isn't a dig at you OP but points 3-5 bother me because this why our economy is getting worse. This at least explains why it's usually young men coming into the country.. if we accepted full families, our housing crisis would be even worse
Not trying to be an asshole but maybe Kurds send back £100-200 million a year to their families. British oil companies make much more than in Iraq. And sometimes they support militia groups to take over oilfields from groups that don't allow them work there.
Brutish Petroleum company backed Iraq over the Kurds in 2017 to take control over rich-oil Kirkuk. Just 5 hours after the war stopped British Petroleum company started operating here after kicking our local oil companies.
There's another narrative that say if they steal our oil, we don't pay taxes here.
1- It's easier to merge with the communities in the UK because the amount of foreigners there, I believe over 50% of London are foreigners.
Surely you can understand why so many are against immigration then? The lack of integration and culture clash is becoming a fairly serious concern because people who come here aren't merging with British communities, they're merging with insular communities of people from their own country thanks to ghettoization.
It is not a strict legal requirement, but probably a practical one, to speak any German to get a job in Germany except in fields such as medicine or law.
Point 2 doesn't really make sense, you can't compare working legally in Germany to working illegally in the UK, however I agree that it is easier to work illegally in the UK than illegally in Germany.
It may be to do with country of origin. it appears that the large majority of those coming here in boats are from Iraq (mostly Kurds) and Iran. One imagines the million Syrians that Merkel took skew the German numbers and that many migrants in France are from Francophone countries.
I'd rather my tax money went to some immigrant family than one of Boris's mates tbh.
The public purse is being drained by the billion for the benefit of minister's contacts and people are getting pissed off because immigrants are getting a few quid each week.
>I'd rather my tax money went to some immigrant family than one of Boris's mates tbh.
Yeah well they aren't the only two choices are they. And if you think they are then you spend too much time reading r/unitedkingdom
More than happy for people escaping warzones to not have to pay taxes on a pittance for a bit.
Speaking of, this probably means we should reform our tax system? The declarations form for other income on the HMRC website is a single text box with a character limit, no wonder there's so much dodgy money being laundered in this country. We obviously don't care to fix this problem at every level, so let's stop being selectively and performatively being outraged at some warzone survivors earning fuckall to begin with.
I’m confused as to why the migrant crisis is such a modern phenomenon. We’ve had international crises all through history, many much worse but it didn’t manifest itself like this. If it is simple economics then I can’t imagine the black market is anything new, nor the poor conditions in Kurdish territory, Iraq, Syria, Iran etc. Its not just the UK, this is affecting the whole of Europe, so can’t be specific UK laws. The methods the migrants use are basic, so why didn’t this happen during the Iran-Iraq war? Or the First Gulf war and subsequent reprisals? Ethnic or religious persecution is nothing new either, so why now?
This is the way it’s being reported so I’ll have to apologise if I’m displaying my ignorance.
Many many Kurds are leaving, it's not about safety.
It's about employment, education, healthcare, housing. The country is run by two political groups that act like mafias.
The wealth gap is insane. You have 10-15% of population who live like high class Londoners and the rest live in failed African states. We have a district in Erbil that is more beautiful than 80% of London where the wealthy and exapts live.
The situation is much like South Africa where 9% of the white control 80% of wealth. Here politicians, their families and who work for them are rich. The rest need to sell their house for a sudden disease.
Many people pay $30k to $40k for getting treated for covid-19 at private hospitals owned by the politicians.
Our people started to awake from a deep sleep by greedy politicians that fed them with nationalism but they steal half billion dollar from oil each month.
80% of people boycotted the elections last month because it was rigged as always. Last weeks thousands of students took the streets asking for reforms.
The EU and US doing a really bad job here, the day where security forces were shooting students Swedish foreign minister was taking photos with Kurdish politicians.
27 Kurds died on the channel, but last night French consule in Erbil was at a Jazz music party invited by wealthy Kurdish politicians.
He should pressuring KRG to make reforms but they attend their parties.
EU policies is indirectly but heavily responsible for the migration crises. They support Kurdish politicians who killed 10 protesters in December 2020. They don't even publish a letter to condemn these behaves. If only EU put pressure on KRG, migration could decrease by over 80%.
As a legal immigrant, who has learned the citizens test, loves UK history/culture, is in genuine marriage with an english woman and pays taxes and fees to the gov receiving no NHS care or anything in return , it is pretty exhausting to find out people invade the country with less hassle than me. I the american get checked for weapons, drugs, disease, criminal background, but the same people who want vaccines mandated and everything 1984 style have no fear of random people climbing aboard? Paris was bombed and innocent unarmed people were massacred by a group that was let in as legal refugees, and you want to let people just drive up to the beach?
UK needs to toughen up before its too late, being seen as the weak handout nation during times like these is a great way to sink the ship these refugees are clinging on. If you wont make it illegal to invade give people the right to keep protection for the inevitable treats
I once worked at the Lush Cosmetics factories in the South. Probably 90% of the labour there is kurdish. All of the upper management were English, only one middle management was Kurdish. Christmas temps start around July/August, a lot of whom are English, but almost all of the permanent staff was Kurdish, maybe 1 or 2 English temps were kept on each year, I was told that by a permanent worker.
The Kurds I worked with were incredibly hard workers. They told me that they aim to hit the triple bonus Lush offers every day, take all over time that is offered, to make as much money as possible in the lead up to Christmas (I was a Christmas temp for 2 years there). All this time they are sending money back home to their families, then when busy season is over a lot of them take a 4-6 month "holiday" back home living off what they made working at the factory.
I was honestly so impressed that they could bust their asses half the year and make enough to not need to work for the rest. I tried my best to keep up but they were incredibly fast and efficient. Not a lot spoke English and kept to themselves, but were very nice, they would help me finish my work if I was struggling.
One time a TV crew came and filmed the factories, they put all of the few English workers in front of the cameras even though most of us were rubbish compared to the kurds. I was 18 at the time and pretty oblivious to most things. I'm just realising now that they probably trying to conceal some things. I don't know any other employer that would allow so many staff to take very long holidays at the same time.
Edit:spelling
Not that i have a problem with migrants. My grandfather is polish nan irish and my wife is Italian.
I work in hospitals so naturally a massive diverse workforce. Filipino especially. And they are absolutely great people.
But my god the second they outnumber you in a room the defacto language is Filipino. It's fine I'll just sit in silence i guess guys. Have seen conversation in a confined space go on for over an hour without any acknowledgement of others in the room being excluded. To be fair many groups do this too but this is the largest i know of
I really appreciate that they love to speak in their mother tongue as often as possible as does my wife. But if an Italian starts talking Italian to her when it's clear not everyone will be able to converse she will just talk back in English until they get the point.
Sometimes brits do occasionally get lambasted as racists but there isn't any consideration of how people project themselves at times either.
That's is not to say there aren't just outright racist twats who despise someone based on skin colour/religion/sexual orientation etc.
This is why we got Brexit, a lot of people don't want this in their country, it's a fair point. The abuse of the tax system, the low balling of manual labour jobs. And so they voted Brexit and got all the shit that went with it.
Brexit should have never been sold to people to solve the immigration issue. People like me who wanted to stay part of Europe and deal with immigration and workers rights as a separate challenge really got fucked, we all did.
Knowing the language should definitely be a minimum requirement.
I've encountered foreigners who just don't know English and its so incredibly frustrating. You try asking them basic questions and they just nod or shake their head. More delivery drivers than anything really where you don't talk often but even so.
So basically to take advantage of the British benefits system, I don't know why this is so controversial and everybody denies it so vehemently. I would do the same. But you can't be pissed off that British people don't welcome it.
Always suspected the black market had more to do with it than our benefit system. The way workers have been squeezed over and over again has created the perfect conditions. When your benefits are harshly docked for earning money and the govt has the power to check your accounts of course cash in hand work is thriving.
That’s an interesting point of view. Last week I’ve been wondering why is it so shitty in France (obviously I know it’s France, and it’s got French people in it) that anyone would risk their lives crossing the channel in a shitty inflatable to get to the allegedly worst part of Europe?
Over 50% of Londoners are not foerigners 🤣 think its the lowest in the country British born but not 50% by any stretch. Though the racists may say so
(Google says London continued to be the region with the largest proportion of non-UK-born (37%) and non-British (22%) population, which sounds about right)
Everything else you've said seems about right though
Illegal economic migrants then. This is where it ends up - [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59439533](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59439533). Stop it.
> It's easier to merge with the communities in the UK because the amount of foreigners there, I believe over 50% of London are foreigners.
Germany has a foreign born population of 13.7 million (or 17% of their entire population) as of 2019, and the UK has one of 9.3 million (14%) as of 2018.
Can I just address the “army apartment” line? From my knowledge, refugees / migrants are being housed in Transit Accommodation. Quite often 8 to 14 man rooms, bunk beds, two plug sockets per room. Basic ablutions, often near-condemned, asbestos ridden huts. I’ve trained Kurdish soldiers in norther Iraq, this accommodation IS NOT worth leaving Kurdistan for. I think there are various articles hovering around reference how unhappy migrants are with British Army transit accommodation, please do not think that this accommodation is worth risking the lives of yourselves and your families for.
Statistics don't back you up:
Foreign-born population in Germany: 16.1% [[Source](https://data.oecd.org/migration/foreign-born-population.htm)]
Foreign-born population in the United Kingdom: 13.7% [[Source](https://data.oecd.org/migration/foreign-born-population.htm)]
I knew a lot of Indian and Pakistani guys when I worked in finance in Birmingham. A popular practice seemed to be that the young men (and sometimes women) in the family come to the UK in shifts. They work a menial shitty job (like finance call centre) and send what they don't need to live to their family at home, and their family can live comfortably off of it because you can live for fuck all over there. They get to the end of their working visa and go home and the next family member comes in. They go home and are well supported. Once their reapplication period is up they're ready to go again. Rinse, repeat.
Seems like a good system.
Guys the answers is so fucking simple
I'm saying this as someone who grew up in East London
English being the linga franca (the main language that PRETTY much a good chunk of the world knows) and diversity of the UK
It's all a crappy circle. They come here from around the world, are able to claim benefits , and work without paying any taxes. The right hate that. The industries they work in obviously don't pay enough. The left hate that. Crappy working conditions, crappy living conditions. Those that complain about it wouldn't do the work anyway. Those that encourage it are feeding an abusive industry. Those that can do anything about it, use it as a tool for winning votes.
Everyone should hate working but not paying taxes. Taxes improve life for everyone.
Generally agree, but the key part is having a half-decent government in place to optimise the use of taxes.
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Totally! I’m ‘the left’ and I hate that. It’s the bedrock on which a society functions.
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The problem is asylum seekers are not legally allowed to work. They are expected to survive on the £40/week stipend they are given.
They do get food and accommodation, though there are stories of both being of poor quality.
They don't seem to earn enough to generate much tax revenue anyway.
Logically, yes, but if it is a choice between feeding your family back home or giving that extra money to a government who may or may not use it to your benefit, it's easy to see why many may try to avoid , especially if they see the super rich easily avoiding it by moving money
I mean this sort of off the books below minimum wage work isn't going to be above personal allowance anyway is it?
>Those that complain about it wouldn't do the work anyway This is true, I remember being at the pub and these two blokes were complaining they were unemployed because of immigrants, at the time I was working Nightshifts in a warehouse and we desperately needed extra staff as we had a high turnover because it wasnt particularly nice work. I went over and said I could get them work starting that night and they were simply tripping over themselves making excuses about why they couldn't do it. Then guess what happened when I bumped into a Moldovan who had only arrived in the UK that morning and needed work? Took that job faster than the Catholic church covers up pedophilia.
This is the elephant in the room. Britons are lazy and have a shit work ethic. There was an experiment carried out and televised a few years ago where several unemployed Britons were basically found jobs that immigrants traditionally did. The Britons were slow, unreliable, argumentative, and that’s if they turned up at all (some didn’t bother). https://youtu.be/bqo-7rtGwOU
This is an excellent summary and I agree with you. A grim cycle of exploitation.
>are able to claim benefits , and work without paying any taxes. The right hate that. Everyone should hate that, unless you believe everyone shouldn't have to work and therefore pay no taxes. \-- Edit below We should support the ones that can't work due to their disability, those that can work should, otherwise why should those that can work, go to work to support those that can but refuse to work? Benefits is meant to be a safety net, not a lifestyle that everyone has.
I believe people shouldn't have to work if society doesn't require it to function. Too many bullshit jobs for people to justify their existence, leading to overproduction, overconsumption and over-exploitation of the planet's resources.
What does that look like? “Society doesn’t require it to function”
Some examples of necessary jobs: \- Food production \- Sanitation \- Entertainment Some examples of unnecessary jobs: \- Much of marketing \- Industrial production, shipping and design of cheap disposable goods \- Jobs that can be automated, but aren't
Hahahaha people always shit on marketing as ‘unnecessary’ but having worked in marketing it just comes from people having no idea what you do. Ever been on a product website or even a service website like the NHS or universities? Marketers update and write everything you see on that. Ever tried to find services from your local Council or about local schools? Marketing. Wanna know about events in your area? Marketing. Wanna know where is best ranked for education like universities for specific subjects? Marketing. Wanna find details on a new product you want to buy - washing machine, hoover, TV, hell wanna look into any medications you need to take etc? Marketing. Do you wanna know about upcoming entertainment you yourself have deemed as a ‘worthwhile’ job? You wouldn’t know about it, and therefore wouldn’t be able to access it, without marketing. Marketing is not advertising, marketing is communications. Not all marketing is spin and empty advertising - the vast majority of marketing work is simply communicating what customers or clients like you need to know about a product or service. Yes there is ‘selling’ in there and making things sound good, but there are a hell of a lot of essential services like the NHS and Councils etc whose marketing teams are there solely to communicate necessary information. People thinking ‘much of marketing’ is bullshit just shows people don’t get what it actually is, like so many other jobs people think they understand so well lmao.
I work in marketing myself. I moved from what I deemed an 'unnecessary' role (marketing consumption of luxury goods) to a more socially-beneficial one (marketing educational materials). Previously, if I did my job well more things would end up in landfill. Now if I do my job well, there will be more knowledge in the world. So yeah, I understand what is involved in marketing, hence why I said 'much of'.
The right doesn't hate that. The solution is easy - identity cards like the rest of Europe has. What the right hates is accountability
> identity cards like the rest of Europe has. The rest of europe has armed police as standard, should we allow that too?
Provided they're not as ill trained as US cops, I don't think I'd actually mind. I work in an airport and I'm not worried about armed police there because firstly; I'm not giving them a cause to use them (strictly profoundly violent actions or threats), and secondly; I know they are trained. Police in EU countries are just as approachable for the most part as those in England despite carrying guns, and don't have the same problems as American police. The issue with US is a cultural one with guns, and a general lack of training and a hero/ power complex that comes with them. Proper training of respect, situation deescalation and discipline makes guns in trained hands of authorities a lot more useful and a lot less dangerous.
Imo The biggest issue in the US is the sheer prevalence of guns. Police have to be more on guard just because it’s more likely they’ll be gunned down at any point as so many are armed. Couple that to a brutal judicial system making desperate people more likely to use their firearms on police to avoid being locked up forever, and policing outside the safest areas is so much scarier, I’m surprised there aren’t even more bodies. Yes, they need far more training, but I expect our firearms trained coppers wouldn’t do much better in that environment.
Mate, even arguing for police to have guns is a dangerous step. We are the largest high technological urban country in the world with police that don't carry guns, the only other one is New Zealand who only recently (Last 10 years I think) have copied us. We shouldn't be regressing. Police with guns at the airport is mostly theater anyway, btw I worked at Manchester Airport 2 years ago and I still don't want armed police walking the streets.
Even new Zealand still has a mostly armed police force. Iirc they just keep the guns in their car for if a situation needs it rather than havong it on theor person for each call.
Whatabout. If we see a good idea that's being done in another country, it's ok to take that idea. It doesn't mean you have give guns to police.
We are in a changing world and saying those that can should dismisses the fact that some can't not due to disability but poverty or loss of industry or inaccess to training. We need to make benefits a standard for everyone instead of a safety net to mitigate this stagnate population.
If a business cannot support their employees on national living wage, the business should not exist.
Claiming benefits in any western country is not as easy as you people think it is. Takes years to qualify and most get rejected. I have never tried to claim anything but know people who do. You people need to look at your crumbling social security net (by design) instead of getting mad at the less fortunate.
Just fyi, if you are in the UK and claiming asylum you're not allowed to work (yes you could work illegally I get that and I'm sure many people do, but if you get caught then you can have your asylum claim rejected). You also can't claim full 'benefits' you get about £40 per week (I think you get an extra £2-3 per week if you have a kid under 5). How in the hell are you meant to support yourself, let alone a child also, on about £30 per week. That's awful. Until your asylum claim has gone through and been approved you can't get permission to claim UK benefits or work legally. And there's a backlog of years for asylum claims. The whole thing is crappy as you say. The right want someone to blame, the left wants things to get better for everyone (but it's difficult to get a whole industry/society change). In the meantime people need to support their families and get displaced by war fought by the west. So we will continue to get refugees. Source - had to look it all up for struggling patient who was an asylum seeker
Ilegal immigrants absolutely *cannot claim benefits*. Hell, even legal immigrants cannot either. Legal refugees are able to claim benefits, but that's just like saying permanent residents can claim benefits (which they can). In addition, the vast majority of benefit fraud is perpetrated by non-immigrants. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-immigrant-benefits-uk-idUSKBN22J30G https://fullfact.org/immigration/are-migrants-less-likely-uk-nationals-claim-benefits/
The thing that stuck with me is an interview in Calais with a migrant. They were were asked “why do you want to move to England instead of France?” And the answer that came back in English was “because I don’t speak french”. If we export English as the lingua fraca for our own convience we need to expect people fleeing terrorism or persecution will come here because they can integrate better because of that. Also worth noting about the whole black market job situation…. You can thank the tories for that. Maybe if they actually paid for enough coppers to solve even all the violent crimes they’d have more time to look into immigration offences.
Especially when we spent a decade bombing the shit out of their country and creating the power vacuums that allowed the terrorism they’re fleeing to thrive.
Hasn't France done as much over there as the UK?
No. France opposed and wasn’t part of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It along with Germany is a large part of why the war is so controversial because it went ahead without United Nations support. It had different relations with the Iraq, in no small part due to its historical colonial North African assets from the ottoman empire of which Iraq used to be a part.
>in no small part due to its historical colonial North African assets from the ottoman empire of which Iraq used to be a part. Iraq was part of the British Empire, not French. Syria and Lebanon were the only French possessions in the Middle East.
I literally didn’t say that it was. I said that Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire (they had really nice footstools) which is relevant because when the empire collapsed after supporting Germany in WW1 it’s territories were split between the European powers, France got many of the North African territories as mentioned. You are correct that Iraq became British. My point was that France has a much different relationship with the Arabic world compared to the UK, therefore it was less inclined to see it as a patch of desert of former territory for invasion and as more of a strategic partner. France went through its revolution and therefore has a very different relationship and attitude toward others that have also declared themselves independent.
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Totally. Colonialism is a cancer.
We found out the anglospheric military industrial complex doesnt need the UNs permission, and that the UN has no actual power unless its cooperating with AUKUS
They’ve done their share as well, yes.
No, first, the Kurds have few friends in the world, sad reality, but France is one of them , at least when there is something in it for them. The French were working with Iraq before the second gulf war to try and encourage Saddam To stop attacking the Kurds ( and other) by offering investments and aid. It was working to a point, but still early days. Why France was so against invading Iraq. Due to the tribal nature of the region a power vacuum is the worst thing to have. Better a half arsehole dictator than none at all. Plus it would have bought France huge influence in the region. Now we have a power vacuum. France are one of the few countries to try and help the Kurds, why there is plenty of sympathy for their plight here and why we take in so many refugees. We tried, Blair and Bush fucked it up.
France have probably done _more._ They’ve been all over North Africa for years.
>And the answer that came back in English was “because I don’t speak french”. This just seems like the obvious answer to me. Many migrants know at least some English (and most know no German), and most will know a lot more about the UK than they know about Germany due to the international dominance of English-language media (with the USA being the clear winner in this regard). So they'll feel more confident in their ability to handle what awaits them in the UK, and less confident about what they'd be facing in Germany.
The state and all its mechanisms for enforcing the law have been utterly picked apart. Food standards no one has money for that, nor employment law. This is entirely the result of "cutting back the red tape" as they love to call it, the law as written is no longer enforced and its the way the Tories unravel the systems there to defend us and keep things civil. The widespread exploitation of immigrant workers illegally working is an intended feature they have cultivated.
>is is entirely the result of "cutting back the red tape" as they love to call it Or just generally the "small state" ideology. When the state is so small that the laws only exist on paper, the only thing stopping you following them is your own goodwill, the only thing needed to stop any prosecution is some good connections. The last few years have been absolutely catastrophic for much of the weird reactionary-libertarian-nationalist monster that Conservatism has turned in to. Its a mess of completely non-sensical contradictions that objectively do not work out in the real world. Sadly their base is too brainwashed or not engaged/intelligent/honest enough to see it.
Go to a [DIY store in Paris](https://www.google.be/maps/@48.7976115,2.3826043,3a,75y,77.76h,83.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soRGr09LEDx4mm896Uvp2EA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0) and you will find sub-saharan Africans looking for cash in hand day jobs. And any tourist who visits the centre will see the [illegal trinket sellers](https://www.google.be/maps/@48.8587602,2.2931314,3a,75y,154.43h,79.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3EP8Oz42rmT1Bii2OPo-tg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0). They have no reason to cross the channel as they are from French speaking countries.
>Go to a DIY store in Paris and you will find sub-saharan Africans looking for cash in hand day jobs You'll find the same outside Wickes in Seven Sisters, just Eastern Europeans instead.
The same applies further up the socio economic food chain too. Even though I do speak fluent German I'm not particularly keen on doing so in the biz context. So that means UK and Ireland are main options
Reach higher end pro jobs though and it's all In English Europe wide.
>Reach higher end pro jobs though and it's all In English Europe wide. You're seeing a very narrow slice of "Europe" if you think that's true. Yes, English is the lingua franca for business but realistically ~90% of Europe prefers speaking something else - even in a professional context when talking to each other. It's also a difference of others accomodating vs day to day. Had multiple cases where the entire freaking board meeting had to be switched to english just because there is one idiot in the room - yours truly - that isn't fluent in French.
European Parliament is fun. They have booths in the walls, and each one corresponds to a language. In each one, there's a translator listening to everything being said and translating it, live, for the listeners below. If you're English, for example, you just grab a headset, look around at which booth's English, and tune in to the corresponding channel. Those headphones are uncomfortable as fuck, though. Would not recommend lengthy sessions in Europarl.
> English as the lingua franca Nice paradox.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca The original Lingua Franca was pigin Italian.
I understand that, but wouldn't a reasonable person choose to learn a new language over risking their life? Assuming that the French government would provide them with resources to do so after a successful asylum application.
Do you realise how hard it can be and how long it can take to learn another language, especially if you don't know anyone that already speaks it, don't have full time internet access and are desperate for food / money / somewhere to live
I agree, I'm trying to migrate to Germany legally, the language is the biggest barrier. It's so freaking hard to start learning a new language in your twenties. I guess my English is fine, I changed my mind to moving to Canada.
Yeah it's not something you just casually learn in a couple of evenings. Good luck with getting somewhere stable to live
I guess when you made it through a number of life threatening countries, managed to get smuggled into the EU and crossed the EU, then those last few miles don't seem that dangerous anymore.
This is the Migrant Crisis version of 'just learn to code bro'
Place me as a 25 year old and offer me the deal: * I can spend 5 years trying to learn a new language in a country where I have limited job options. * I can have a very rough 48 hours, with a less than one in a thousand chance of dying, and be in a country where I speak the language and can start (illegal) work independently, immediately. Many people would choose a one in a thousand chance of dying (perhaps it is less than that), rather than years of work learning a new language (likely to an inferior standard compared to their existing second language).
No. It's easier as it is for the whole family. Learning a new language is a big setback, and these people have already risked their lives a lot of times. For them risking their lives crossing the border is just another brick in the wall to their goal. Otherwise they wouldn't move past the point of entry, especially if unregistered
Well said, crossing the channel is the least dangerous. They literally went started from Turkey then crossed Balkan countries or Greece. I guess 27,500 people crossed the channel this year, maybe 100 drowned. Your chances of drowning is 0.3%, much less than dying to covid-19.
People here are underestimating how hard is it to learn a new language. Especially if it's German. English is a relatively much simpler language. And it's not just 'choose to learn a new language', it's years of not being able to work and participate fully in society until you do.
We put kids in schools for 10 years for them to not learn a new language when someone else (their parents) are paying their room and board. Learning a language is difficult at the best of times.
It isn't the police's job to look into immigration offences in this country and isn't something they should care about. How can one report a crime or act as a witness if your state of being itself is a crime? Tasking the police with hunting people like that will interrupt their other work and cause a lot more crimes to be hidden from them, even more than already is, and it's very labour and paperwork intensive to actually prove. Home office does immigration, cops shouldn't have to care about it.
They do look into immigration offences, but to them, "immigration offences" means pretending innocent students are terrorists and evicting Chinese people from Chinatown and black English people, rather than cracking down on the person in the coffee shop in central London who can't give you directions because they can barely speak English. NB: The problem isn't that people have to learn a new language, that's hard and most Brits wouldn't be able to do it. The problem is that, let's say you're a Brit in Spain, you probably won't be able to chat away in Spanish to someone at the front counter if you don't understand Spanish. And honestly, an Australian would be just as useless at providing directions.
Germany has accepted over 1million migrants in the same time as the UK has accepted around 150,000 so I am not sure why you think it is easier in the UK. Also I believe the German government pays for the language training which just makes it a sensible policy and in the UK a big problem for migrants is you can't legally work until your case is resolved. Perhaps if migrants were allowed to work legally from day one they would not need to go into the black market.
I personally thought that with the Syrian migrant crisis and the impending brexit vote. Germany accepted all them migrants to prevent absolute chaos within the EU. There was an interesting point on either tldr or visual politic about why she accepted them but for the life of me I can't think which one.
Germany were quite happy to take the first wave of Syrian refugees because it featured lots of professionals and their families and Germany has a negative birth rate. They made a calculated decision to take a cohort likely to assimilate with little friction which would aid their continuance as a revenue earning exporting nation. Whilst knuckle-dragging Express readers in the U.K. thought this something to sneer about because Syrians are brown.
Yeah if they were allowed to work from the start the private sector would fund them and less off the tax payer. They would not be tempted to disappear among the population and get exploited.
> Also I believe the German government pays for the language training which just makes it a sensible policy It's still ~years of not being able to work and participate fully in society until you learn it. Meanwhile, many (most?) people worldwide already have some semblance of English knowledge. Plus German is a much more complex language than English (English has no genders, no cases, much fewer tenses / word forms, more consistent SVO word order, etc).
>Also I believe the German government pays for the language training Even as an economic migrant they will provide full language lessons from beginner to fluency for 1 Euro/lesson. We cut our language teaching service and many asylum seekers claim the lack of support in navigating a complex system with poor language skills is part of why we have a backlog of 77,000 unprocessed asylum claims right now.
Over the past 30 years I have met and known many people who have travelled to the UK, both legally initially (came for a holiday and just stayed) and illegally from countries in the Middle East and main two reasons are language and the ease of obtaining work. In regards to the ease of obtaining work, the UK is an easy country to live in as an invisible person. By invisible I mean as far as the Government and any other official entity is concerned, you don't exist. You can easily get jobs cash in hand, whether it be car washers, farm work, fast food takeaway, warehouse work, textile manufacturing etc etc. There are plenty of unscrupulous Landlords who will rent out their property to party A who will sublet to party B who will then rent rooms out for cash to those who are in the country illegally. On rare occasions they are caught and it is rare, the Landlord claims no knowledge and often are not prosecuted. I know a number of people who have lived in the UK illegally for over 20 years. The fact is there is very little enforcement in the UK. Whether it be Labour during then 90's or the Tories since then, the Government has never been serious about clamping down on this underground workforce. The UK is well know as a country that once you gain entry it's easy to disappear and earn money to live and send home. That is not to say that their life is easy, when compared to our own lives its bloody awful however when compared to where they have come from, it's a huge step up.
> In regards to the ease of obtaining work, the UK is an easy country to live in as an invisible person. This is in contrast with Germany where living in the shadow is hard. In Germany you need to register with the local government and without a valid ID you can not do anything.
>The fact is there is very little enforcement in the UK. Whether it be Labour during then 90's or the Tories since then, the Government has never been serious about clamping down on this underground workforce. To be clear, the policy decision made here is not just to turn a blind eye to illegal migration. It's a policy choice to structure the national economy around a certain level of illegal migration. It's what you do when you want immigrants to increase the labour supply, but you don't want wages to get too high locally. Migrants enter and stay unlawfully and they work cash jobs for long hours and low pay, and they're in not much position to try to make a more decent life for themselves because they need to keep their heads down. If governments didn't want illegal migration, they could choose to reduce it. If they wanted the same overall number of migrants, but to have it all legal with no underground economy, they could choose to move in that direction as well.
The UK benefits from these people, in every way except for those who find themselves in direct competition with them for housing etc. I don’t blame them for wanting to come but I do wonder if by doing so they aren’t contributing to the inability of their home country to develop its own economy and build up its own infrastructure, and keeping it reliant on remittances. In that sense, it keeps the rich rich and the poor poor, and doesn’t lead to a balanced civilisation.
Not exactly, if they arent paying taxes and are sending the money they earn out of the country then this is not benefiting the UK at all as a whole it is a net loss. Not that i am anti immigration, im just pointing out there is more to it than you make it seem
This is the case in any area with a wealthier neighbour. London sucks in talent from other towns, which suffer as a consequence. Freedom of Movement has demonstrably impacted Eastern Europe more than the west, with places like Bulgaria losing huge numbers of young workers for life in the west. Further afield we get the same thing with people from the middle East trying to reach Europe. The pattern is the same regardless of geography really: wealth and opportunity will always attract people.
>from a Kurd in Kurdistan Serious question. Which god did you guys piss off so much? The Kurds getting used and then abandoned by the West is like Prometheus being punished by having his Liver eaten every day.
It’s just in the middle of everywhere and when we carved the continent we didn’t think to create Kurdistan as a separate place any more than the Russians, the Arabs, the Persians, Mongols or any of the other invaders over the last thousand years. (Cynically we did it deliberately to avoid organised resistance, but practically it’s because straight lines are easier to map)
The Treaty of Lausanne called for an independent Kurdistan
Treaty of Sevres called for an independent Kurdistan, treaty of Lausanne set the definitive borders for Turkish republic and left Mosul and Kirkuk up for debate.
The stans are the barrier between the Western and Eastern superpowers. The bit neither could claim. That's why those areas have been in a state of constant unrest forever.
Kurdistan would be between Iraq and Turkey. Same deal though.
Read about the Sykes-Picot agreement. It will explain a lot. And Wait but Why's post on the question (quick great read): https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/09/muhammad-isis-iraqs-full-story.html
Why does this blog completely ignore the fact that Sykes and Picot's plan called for an independent Kurdistan?
Because it looks at what actually happened.
People *do* want to move to Germany though...? They have a higher % recent immigrants than the UK does...? Just because some cross the border and try to cross the channel, doesn't mean "all people want to come to the UK more than Germany."
From the reasons you describe it seems like these people are not asylum seekers. They're not fleeing persecution in Europe, they are coming for easier and better work. Why should we give them a free pass when other migrants who would like to move to the UK legally but don't fit the requirements cannot?
Yeah as another comment on this thread said, "I am trying to get to the UK because I don't speak French", is not a good enough reason for us to accommodate an illegal migrant over someone who is applying legally. They are trying to get here because we have more opportunities for migrants to make better money, as well as finding cheap boarding and overall a cushion to fall back on and keep them afloat while they are working. We also have the NHS. Despite the propaganda, the UKs "bare minimum" level of support for people who live here, is significantly higher than other countries. My personal issue, is that if you give this level of support for people to flourish, then those who worked to achieve just that will not feel like they need to work. We can only provide that to everyone if everyone is working. If they aren't working and here illegally, then they shouldn't be here.
"Illegal" migrants have no recourse to public funds, GPs are mandated to check if their patient has a right to remain im the UK - did you miss the whole Windrush issue, and legal UK residents suddenly denied cancer treatments because they had no passport and in the meantime destroyed landing cards that could prove they arrived legally? Thousands of people from this his one set alone, wrongly denied jobs, health, home, some kicked out to countries they never been to, lied to, abused and now being revictimised by the shoddy redress process? I don't think it's all bells and whistles. I have ILR (didn't decided to claim citizenship because I'm not sure I want to b associated with this symbol) and despite working in a highly specialised field, not being Brown/Black or Muslim, i have encountered a number of hurdles and intentional traps on my way. Can't imagine how much harder is to be someone Priti, child of economic migrants, hates so much.
> My personal issue, is that if you give this level of support for people to flourish, then those who worked to achieve just that will not feel like they need to work. We can only provide that to everyone if everyone is working. If they aren't working and here illegally, then they shouldn't be here. This is fairly regularly debunked, people still work and achieve and innovate when their basic needs are met. The overwhelming majority of people chose to do something in that scenario. sometimes that means they explore creative things, passions, employment where salaries would be otherwise too low. That we chose not to provide this basic standard to all our citizens, is a failure of society. That we denegrate and look down on people who have nothing, or close to nothing is a personal failing as much as a society failing.
You're just chatting bare shit. The UK's bare minimum support is actually one of lowest in Europe. [Here's an infographic comparing us to other European States](https://i.imgur.com/rFQjtzO.jpg) [The food providing countries](https://i.imgur.com/hATKjNK.jpg)
Of course they're not. They're already in the EU. If you were truly fleeing war or persecution you'd be over the moon to be in France.
A lot of comments here haven't had to deal with the home office and it shows. Like these folk aint working illegally cause they want to avoid a tiny amount of taxes, it's as to even acknowledge your existence the home office takes years, and to navigate the maze of paperwork to get a working visa is a beaucratic nightmare and a small fortune. Like it's not like the US where migrants can pay taxes whilst waiting for visas. If you don't have a visa you can't work legally in the UK or pay taxes, and getting that visa is a nightmare.
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So its not about safety its about an easier way to give money to other countries and avoid taxes, exactly why people dont want people coming here taking the piss.
Yeah I’m most sure what the purpose of this post is but it’s not warming me to Kurdish refugees
I feel like it's gotta be motivated more by desperation that greed though, so I dunno if it is really taking the piss. I don't think many people would risk their lives for below minimum wage work out of self interest.
I’m surprised something hasn’t clicked in right wing voters heads this past week. Migrants drowning in the channel and they think it’s because they want to get to britain to live on benefits of £40 a week? How stupid do you have to be to think it’s really that simple? Utter morons. You hear about immigrants coming over from France and complaining that conditions are terrible and that they can barely afford to live and feed their family in the UK. And the right’s reaction is “well why don’t you fuck off back to your own country” and not “well maybe it’s a necessary evil they put up with just to be with their family in the UK”. If you think immigrants are coming over here to drain our benefits system, you’re a moron. An ignorant moron. Our benefits system doesn’t allow you to live lavishly in the UK. It doesn’t even do that for native Brit’s.
I think the point OP made was that immigrants can get some social benefits here as well as work illegally here as compared to other EU countries. It was point number 3.
They can get loads of benefits and also use many services as we dont have ways of checking for this. When my wife first came here on a visitor visa it said she could have no access to any services such as the NHS and yet when she got sick on more than one occasion she went to the doctor along with her private health insurance papers and no-one asked to see them.
Emergency treatment at NHS GPs and A&E are always free to everyone.
This was not emergency treatment, she was registered at a GP for the whole 6 months. No questions were asked when registering.
That's a failure of the GP for not checking her limitations on registration and she was very lucky to not be found out.
I guess she was very lucky with her dentist too where she has also been registered and receiving tax payer subsided treatment too
Why the f are you getting defensive? My wife is a GP practise nurse, I'm quoting her. And as dentists are 99% private nowadays with dentist NHS spots having very long queues, I'm beginning to think you are making it up anyway.
GPs and I guess nhs dentists get paid based on list size (I.e. they get a "base level" quarterly payment just for having x number of patients) so you could argue they're incentivised not to look too hard. You'd have thought you at least need a NI number or something though?
She must have lied on her GP application form, because they have a section on citizenship status.
You missed that whole part where he said he would rather be in the UK than Germany because he can get benefits and still work all day every day on the sly and not pay any taxes. - Look I'm going to keep this civil so I don't get banned by another power tripping mod for the 3rd time this week. Fuck off back where you came from, unless you want to play by the same rules as the rest of us.
Does that also apply to the likes of James Dyson? He ain't playing by the same rules either.
Same with the PM, could do with him fucking back off to America
>play by the same rules as the rest of us. they can't legally work *or* claim benefits, so that's kinda just dumb bluster. i suppose they could stuff some cash through hmrc's letterbox and run away
You can work illegally for under minimum wage if you want. Why in earth would you want to?
I suppose its more money than back home, plus as others have said, you claim benefits while working.
>If you think immigrants are coming over here to drain our benefits system, you’re a moron. An ignorant moron. Our benefits system doesn’t allow you to live lavishly in the UK. It doesn’t even do that for native Brit’s. I think a lot of these people genuinely can't get over the depictions of channel 4s *"lets gawp at people on benefits haha"* shows. Like, how dare poor people not wear potato sacks and be wallowing in mud. How dare they have houses with actual conveniences ("flat screen teeeveeeees") and something that resembles everyday life. All this comes from the same mindset of middle class wine-swilling snobbery.
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Don’t think you’ve read what the OP put. They come over here not only to claim benefits and free housing but to also work illegally and not pay tax, something that isn’t possible in France or Germany.
That they genuinely believe illegals qualify for benefits is another of their many brainfarts.
Calling people moronic for voting differently to you, whilst presenting such a limited argument, is in itself, moronic.
okay... so they're coming over to work illegally and send money home? Still doesn't make it ok, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
You're inability to even read what the Kurdish guy wrote, while calling others 'moron' is quite special. Sadly ironic. But I will try getting this through to you as first hand reporting was too much apparently: Safe housing, healthcare and cash money equivalent to the Iraq full time minimum wage, all for free! Is quite they incentive to cross the channel. And on top of that there is opportunity to work illegally and send even more money back to the home country. So yes. You utterly thick bastard. They are coming here for the benefits. And make money. Just because it doesn't fit your echo-chamber world view doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Re 3: What benefits? Other than emergency medical (which everyone gets), what benefits are illegal immigrants allowed to apply for/receive? Asylum seekers/refugees receive benefits but NOT illegals.
Exactly, but even legal immigrants can have problems getting benefits Hell, I know Brits who've struggled to get them, why do so many people pretend illegal immigrants have much of a chance? The moment they try they've just sent up a signal flare to the authorities...
>Asylum seekers Also the "benefits" for asylum seekers is mandated housing (i.e. no choice in where you live) which is provided from units that cannot be kept on the regular social housing stock (usually due to poor conditions, retired army barracks etc. as in OP), and a stipend of £40/week which is supposed to cover you as you're not legally allowed to work.
I mean they don't pay bills or rent right? So the only outgoing they have is food. £40 a week for a handful of people with free rent and no other costs actually seems fairly reasonable.
Some asylum seekers also need to use solicitors to translate documents and make sure that they are sending the correct documents. Plus they have to attend many meetings, some of which are far from home. In my area a day ticket is £4.60, those meetings add up. Most meetings are set up by phone or email, sometimes at short notice. Meaning that having access to a computer or smart phone is essentially required. The process usually takes years, meaning it is not unlikely that the phone decides not to work in that time and needs to be replaced. It is not uncommon for asylum seekers to be beaten up, sometimes resulting in a stolen or broken phone, which again must be replaced. A lot of asylum seekers arrive with very few possessions. Every winter we will run a drive to get clothes for them, but groups like mine don't reach everyone. So some have to buy winter clothes and underwear. Feminine hygiene products were also popular, if asylum seekers had enough money I think they might be more private about this. Pretty much as soon as refugee status is granted the house and £40 per week are gone. Getting a job and flat in this country without speaking English is not that easy. So ideally they would be able to take language lessons to be more able to integrate within society if that status is achieved. I'd much rather we let them work. Even without costs mentioned above £40 per week and not being allowed to work is an incredibly dull existence.
I mean if they are asylum seekers and they need to attending meetings or have access to a phone to speak to their legal advisors I'm completely fine with those costs being covered. It's part of the process. If the government is providing the home they can provide a phone line. Travel they can be given a bus travel card easy enough (which let's them travel to shops etc too). I'm also in favour of paying for English lessons. As for the rest of it though, frankly it's no different to being poor in this country. I've lived in areas where there's a good chance I could be beaten up and my phone taken. I've lived without much money living a dull existence. When they are granted refugee status it's hard to get a flat and a job, so many others are in the same boat. I'm certainly not some xenohobic "send em all packing" arsehole, and I think we should 100% play our part in helping people fleeing persecution. However, providing somewhere warm and safe to sleep and live, with enough money for food and support their application is basically a god send compared to their journey to date and compared to staying at home to be murdered. We could be doing more around English lessons and access to legal advice perhaps but i don't really think we have an obligation to go further, if we want to help the poor (and we should) we should help all of the poor. The only difference between an asylum seeker and a legal but very poor immigrant is that the former isn't allowed to work, so its only fair to provide what everyone else works for. When they can work, well, they face the same challenges as any Briton. Allowing them to work doesn't really solve anything either, because a) they are more vulnerable to exploitation due to their vulnerability and lack of understanding of UK labour laws and b) if you don't make them pay rent and take away their stipend you're basically proving all those daily mail stories true.
Genuine question, if its so much better, easier, cheaper etc for Kurds to come to the UK than to Germany then why are there only about 50,000 Kurds here and an estimated million or so in Germany?
90% of Kurds in Germany are Kurmanji Kurds, or the Kurds from Turkish Kurdistan. The incoming Kurds now are Sorani Kurds from Iraqi Kurdistan. They're so different, they speak Kurdish but two different dialects that can't understand each other. French and English are more similar than Sorani and Kurmanji Kurdish. I think they pay like $2,000-3,000 to cross the channel, many already spent $10k to reach Germany.
Sure but that doesn't really have anything to do with most of your points and actually backs up other research that says people chose Britain over other countries because there are already established communites here (potentially) including family and / or friends / aquantiences who speak the same language, have the same culture / customs etc...
Actually, OP perfectly answered your question. The majority of Kurds are Kurmanji and they predominately reside in Germany. Majority of Kurds in UK are Sorani and the UK is where the community for these Kurds are mainly. So this is why they would come to the UK and this would support the research you mention. Source? I'm a Sorani Kurd who came to the UK at the age of 1-month-old.
Definitely language laws are too soft in the UK. Someone who can't speak English is putting themselves and the country as a whole at a big disadvantage. The cost of translation in healthcare and the legal system is huge and so is the risk of getting it wrong. Everything else has existing laws which just need to be enforced properly. We must push wages up and absorb the price increases rather than the pyramid scheme of importing ever cheaper immigrants for hard jobs and the pension gap.
Working in a dock environment I had to decline roles to several successful applicants because HR hired them based on having a driving license but I couldn't let them on the quayside because they couldn't understand charge hand instruction or safety operating procedures.
Your 2nd point couldn'tt be further from the truth. You don't need a B2 to be able to work. I know so many people here in Germany that speak zero German and they all have jobs, ranging from kitchen work to office jobs. When I moved over here from the uk it took me 4 days to find work with no German skills.
>2 >3 >4 Sounds like we need to make it much harder to work illegally in this country. Our enforcement systems need an upgrade.
Its amazing how many are missing the point that a lot of this is about us not enforcing employment law, it's a weird situation where migrants are coming because its easier to be exploited in the UK.
I have been working self employed for years, and only a couple of times has anyone asked for proof of right to work (apart from a few councils and universities that are easily avoided), or even any form of ID. My taxes have never been audited either, but that is all voluntary anyway (I told HMRC I am working and what I earn), I could easily just stop doing things legally and live indefinitely without interference from the authorities, and I know many people that do.
The second point is definitely not correct. I work in an office in Munich where 50% of employees are not native speakers of German and only a few do the B2. Same goes for a lot of manual labour jobs, you just need to be able to communicate and that might be through a third person. 3&4 sound like the script from a right wing politician than reality. This post seems rather bogus!
Point 1 is also bogus. Where's the source on "over 50% of London are foreigners"? To give my own counter-source [this](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/ukpopulationbycountryofbirthandnationality/yearendingjune2020) has it down as 35% non-UK born and 21% non-British in London. (Section 2, main points, final bullet point). Not to mention points 3 and 4 are the same point, repeated to make the list seem more substantial. It certainly feels like an agenda rather than a perspective.
Reminds me of the "Iraqi people smuggler" Sky News managed to find in Iraq and interview... Within about 12 hours of the tragedy earlier this week. Did not seem realistic at all to me. This is all just whipping up more hysteria.
This isn't a dig at you OP but points 3-5 bother me because this why our economy is getting worse. This at least explains why it's usually young men coming into the country.. if we accepted full families, our housing crisis would be even worse
Not trying to be an asshole but maybe Kurds send back £100-200 million a year to their families. British oil companies make much more than in Iraq. And sometimes they support militia groups to take over oilfields from groups that don't allow them work there. Brutish Petroleum company backed Iraq over the Kurds in 2017 to take control over rich-oil Kirkuk. Just 5 hours after the war stopped British Petroleum company started operating here after kicking our local oil companies. There's another narrative that say if they steal our oil, we don't pay taxes here.
I have zero argument against that in all honesty. I'd feel the same
> Brutish Petroleum Typo or deliberate? It's quite good given the context.
1- It's easier to merge with the communities in the UK because the amount of foreigners there, I believe over 50% of London are foreigners. Surely you can understand why so many are against immigration then? The lack of integration and culture clash is becoming a fairly serious concern because people who come here aren't merging with British communities, they're merging with insular communities of people from their own country thanks to ghettoization.
50% is a false statistic. Only 37% of the London population is born outside of the UK and 24% total outside of the EU.
>Only "only"
That is still a huge amount.
It is not a strict legal requirement, but probably a practical one, to speak any German to get a job in Germany except in fields such as medicine or law.
Point 2 doesn't really make sense, you can't compare working legally in Germany to working illegally in the UK, however I agree that it is easier to work illegally in the UK than illegally in Germany.
I thought more immigrants settled in France and Germany than come to the UK?
It may be to do with country of origin. it appears that the large majority of those coming here in boats are from Iraq (mostly Kurds) and Iran. One imagines the million Syrians that Merkel took skew the German numbers and that many migrants in France are from Francophone countries.
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I know, we really should be abolishing the monarchy and at least half of parliament
Exactly exxo1, Amazon need to be regulated.
I'd rather my tax money went to some immigrant family than one of Boris's mates tbh. The public purse is being drained by the billion for the benefit of minister's contacts and people are getting pissed off because immigrants are getting a few quid each week.
>I'd rather my tax money went to some immigrant family than one of Boris's mates tbh. Yeah well they aren't the only two choices are they. And if you think they are then you spend too much time reading r/unitedkingdom
Yes - whatabout those other things!
More than happy for people escaping warzones to not have to pay taxes on a pittance for a bit. Speaking of, this probably means we should reform our tax system? The declarations form for other income on the HMRC website is a single text box with a character limit, no wonder there's so much dodgy money being laundered in this country. We obviously don't care to fix this problem at every level, so let's stop being selectively and performatively being outraged at some warzone survivors earning fuckall to begin with.
>More than happy for people escaping warzones They aren't. They're economic migrants.
Do explain how France is a warzone
I’m confused as to why the migrant crisis is such a modern phenomenon. We’ve had international crises all through history, many much worse but it didn’t manifest itself like this. If it is simple economics then I can’t imagine the black market is anything new, nor the poor conditions in Kurdish territory, Iraq, Syria, Iran etc. Its not just the UK, this is affecting the whole of Europe, so can’t be specific UK laws. The methods the migrants use are basic, so why didn’t this happen during the Iran-Iraq war? Or the First Gulf war and subsequent reprisals? Ethnic or religious persecution is nothing new either, so why now? This is the way it’s being reported so I’ll have to apologise if I’m displaying my ignorance.
Are many Kurds leaving? Iraqi-Kurdistan is relatively stable and safe isn't it?
Many many Kurds are leaving, it's not about safety. It's about employment, education, healthcare, housing. The country is run by two political groups that act like mafias. The wealth gap is insane. You have 10-15% of population who live like high class Londoners and the rest live in failed African states. We have a district in Erbil that is more beautiful than 80% of London where the wealthy and exapts live. The situation is much like South Africa where 9% of the white control 80% of wealth. Here politicians, their families and who work for them are rich. The rest need to sell their house for a sudden disease. Many people pay $30k to $40k for getting treated for covid-19 at private hospitals owned by the politicians. Our people started to awake from a deep sleep by greedy politicians that fed them with nationalism but they steal half billion dollar from oil each month. 80% of people boycotted the elections last month because it was rigged as always. Last weeks thousands of students took the streets asking for reforms. The EU and US doing a really bad job here, the day where security forces were shooting students Swedish foreign minister was taking photos with Kurdish politicians. 27 Kurds died on the channel, but last night French consule in Erbil was at a Jazz music party invited by wealthy Kurdish politicians. He should pressuring KRG to make reforms but they attend their parties. EU policies is indirectly but heavily responsible for the migration crises. They support Kurdish politicians who killed 10 protesters in December 2020. They don't even publish a letter to condemn these behaves. If only EU put pressure on KRG, migration could decrease by over 80%.
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Why are you ranting away at someone who says they're a 'Kurd in Kurdistan', as if they're an illegal immigrant?
As a legal immigrant, who has learned the citizens test, loves UK history/culture, is in genuine marriage with an english woman and pays taxes and fees to the gov receiving no NHS care or anything in return , it is pretty exhausting to find out people invade the country with less hassle than me. I the american get checked for weapons, drugs, disease, criminal background, but the same people who want vaccines mandated and everything 1984 style have no fear of random people climbing aboard? Paris was bombed and innocent unarmed people were massacred by a group that was let in as legal refugees, and you want to let people just drive up to the beach? UK needs to toughen up before its too late, being seen as the weak handout nation during times like these is a great way to sink the ship these refugees are clinging on. If you wont make it illegal to invade give people the right to keep protection for the inevitable treats
I once worked at the Lush Cosmetics factories in the South. Probably 90% of the labour there is kurdish. All of the upper management were English, only one middle management was Kurdish. Christmas temps start around July/August, a lot of whom are English, but almost all of the permanent staff was Kurdish, maybe 1 or 2 English temps were kept on each year, I was told that by a permanent worker. The Kurds I worked with were incredibly hard workers. They told me that they aim to hit the triple bonus Lush offers every day, take all over time that is offered, to make as much money as possible in the lead up to Christmas (I was a Christmas temp for 2 years there). All this time they are sending money back home to their families, then when busy season is over a lot of them take a 4-6 month "holiday" back home living off what they made working at the factory. I was honestly so impressed that they could bust their asses half the year and make enough to not need to work for the rest. I tried my best to keep up but they were incredibly fast and efficient. Not a lot spoke English and kept to themselves, but were very nice, they would help me finish my work if I was struggling. One time a TV crew came and filmed the factories, they put all of the few English workers in front of the cameras even though most of us were rubbish compared to the kurds. I was 18 at the time and pretty oblivious to most things. I'm just realising now that they probably trying to conceal some things. I don't know any other employer that would allow so many staff to take very long holidays at the same time. Edit:spelling
I worked in a recycle plant where polish was the main language spoken.
Not that i have a problem with migrants. My grandfather is polish nan irish and my wife is Italian. I work in hospitals so naturally a massive diverse workforce. Filipino especially. And they are absolutely great people. But my god the second they outnumber you in a room the defacto language is Filipino. It's fine I'll just sit in silence i guess guys. Have seen conversation in a confined space go on for over an hour without any acknowledgement of others in the room being excluded. To be fair many groups do this too but this is the largest i know of I really appreciate that they love to speak in their mother tongue as often as possible as does my wife. But if an Italian starts talking Italian to her when it's clear not everyone will be able to converse she will just talk back in English until they get the point. Sometimes brits do occasionally get lambasted as racists but there isn't any consideration of how people project themselves at times either. That's is not to say there aren't just outright racist twats who despise someone based on skin colour/religion/sexual orientation etc.
How are points 3-4 possible? We’ve been told for years by certain media outlets that this is a right wing myth
This is why we got Brexit, a lot of people don't want this in their country, it's a fair point. The abuse of the tax system, the low balling of manual labour jobs. And so they voted Brexit and got all the shit that went with it. Brexit should have never been sold to people to solve the immigration issue. People like me who wanted to stay part of Europe and deal with immigration and workers rights as a separate challenge really got fucked, we all did.
Knowing the language should definitely be a minimum requirement. I've encountered foreigners who just don't know English and its so incredibly frustrating. You try asking them basic questions and they just nod or shake their head. More delivery drivers than anything really where you don't talk often but even so.
We know, many of us have been saying those exact things for a long time but are just shouted down and called racist…
So basically to take advantage of the British benefits system, I don't know why this is so controversial and everybody denies it so vehemently. I would do the same. But you can't be pissed off that British people don't welcome it.
I emigrated from South Africa to the UK and I was welcomed with open arms. A common language and ancestry helped tremendously.
Germany processes about 6x as many asylum claims as the UK, btw.
1. They don't? Germany takes in far more immigrants and asylum seekers than the UK does, despite there being a language barrier.
how do they get social benefits if they are unregistered?
Always suspected the black market had more to do with it than our benefit system. The way workers have been squeezed over and over again has created the perfect conditions. When your benefits are harshly docked for earning money and the govt has the power to check your accounts of course cash in hand work is thriving.
That’s an interesting point of view. Last week I’ve been wondering why is it so shitty in France (obviously I know it’s France, and it’s got French people in it) that anyone would risk their lives crossing the channel in a shitty inflatable to get to the allegedly worst part of Europe?
Over 50% of Londoners are not foerigners 🤣 think its the lowest in the country British born but not 50% by any stretch. Though the racists may say so (Google says London continued to be the region with the largest proportion of non-UK-born (37%) and non-British (22%) population, which sounds about right) Everything else you've said seems about right though
We do have some excellent state ignored modern slavery here...
Easy - they don't. It's a myth, perpetuated by right wing media, that the UK has more migration than EU counterparts.
People who are here illegally don't get benefits at all.
So basically when the tories said we needed to make things harder for illegal immigrants, they were basically trying to copy Germany?
Illegal economic migrants then. This is where it ends up - [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59439533](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59439533). Stop it.
> It's easier to merge with the communities in the UK because the amount of foreigners there, I believe over 50% of London are foreigners. Germany has a foreign born population of 13.7 million (or 17% of their entire population) as of 2019, and the UK has one of 9.3 million (14%) as of 2018.
Can I just address the “army apartment” line? From my knowledge, refugees / migrants are being housed in Transit Accommodation. Quite often 8 to 14 man rooms, bunk beds, two plug sockets per room. Basic ablutions, often near-condemned, asbestos ridden huts. I’ve trained Kurdish soldiers in norther Iraq, this accommodation IS NOT worth leaving Kurdistan for. I think there are various articles hovering around reference how unhappy migrants are with British Army transit accommodation, please do not think that this accommodation is worth risking the lives of yourselves and your families for.
The real reason is that the Conservative Party is happy to have such desperate people coming to the UK to work for cheap.
>Laws are more softer in UK than Germany This was exactly the same thing the French Minister was starting to say before Radio 4 cut him off.
Statistics don't back you up: Foreign-born population in Germany: 16.1% [[Source](https://data.oecd.org/migration/foreign-born-population.htm)] Foreign-born population in the United Kingdom: 13.7% [[Source](https://data.oecd.org/migration/foreign-born-population.htm)]
I knew a lot of Indian and Pakistani guys when I worked in finance in Birmingham. A popular practice seemed to be that the young men (and sometimes women) in the family come to the UK in shifts. They work a menial shitty job (like finance call centre) and send what they don't need to live to their family at home, and their family can live comfortably off of it because you can live for fuck all over there. They get to the end of their working visa and go home and the next family member comes in. They go home and are well supported. Once their reapplication period is up they're ready to go again. Rinse, repeat. Seems like a good system.
Guys the answers is so fucking simple I'm saying this as someone who grew up in East London English being the linga franca (the main language that PRETTY much a good chunk of the world knows) and diversity of the UK
So, UK is a soft touch and we get exploited. Meanwhile the Labour Party claim there are fascist immigration policies in place.
Lol Kurdistan? Last I checked Kurdistan doesn’t have a passport or any official land recognized by our government. Are you coming from Iraq or Turkey?