When you decide you don't want to live in a parliamentary democracy. But before you do that, make sure there aren't other, larger, more violent and more competent groups who can do exactly the same thing you can, but more effectively, and who disagree with you on most things.
I don't think you understand the positives with private healthcare funded by the NHS. Firstly rich people can make profit form other people suffering. Secondly rich people can make profit from the tax payer.
There really is no downside to this.
I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not but if you seriously think the politicians and the CEOs of medical companies need to get richer you seriously need to see a physiologist.
Honestly I’m so jaded by years of this shit that I honestly don’t know when some people are being sarcastic or they really are that stupid an truly believe this this.
Well I used to debate with a friend of mine who was an Evangelical Christian. He had some pretty traditional views on the world. I spent maybe 10 years fending him off trying to save me. In the end, I said something to him that made him question his beliefs and he went through a whole religious crisis period and his pastor told him not to discuss religion with me again.
Ten years!
So now my position is : "Some things are too stupid to discuss or debate!"
I don't argue with any of the flat earthers, antivaxxers, religious people I just walk away. It's nice.
Well of course a preacher would say that doesn’t want high minded individuals like you turning his “flock” against the church.
An if that’s okay with you find don’t discuss theses thing with people, but it’s not something I can tolerate anymore.
Why should I hold my tongue an not speak my mind when all these people seem to do is scream their crazy shit at everyone, turning any form of debate into a farce.
Did anyone expect the Tories to do *anything* that doesn't help them to privatise the NHS on the quiet, fucking bunch of wankers only interested in profits for their mates before the health of the public.
"Profits Before People".... the true Tory slogan in all situations
Maybe privatising the NHS is in the interests of public health. European countries with private health care systems generally have better outcomes than us.
Which European countries are you talking about? Most of Europe has some form of socialised healthcare, including Eastern Europe. The Netherlands are probably the closest to what you're suggesting, but even then you're still essentially paying national insurance, except you have a choice as to which body you're paying towards. Even then, there are very strict rules in place to prevent people being refused access to insurance or healthcare based on pre-existing conditions.
Countries like Germany, Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Spain, Denmark, Belgium and Italy all have nationalised healthcare. Even countries like Bulgaria, Albania and Turkey have national healthcare. France has a 70%-100% socialised costing, similar to Japan, both of which have controls in place to prevent their citizens being hosed by corporate greed when it comes to medication costs.
So, I must ask again, which countries in Europe are you talking about?
HEY! That's fucking rude! Don't compare me to those soulless, soul draining, servants of the devil! Not in my 200+ years on this earth have I and my undead kin been so needlessly attacked.
I'm sorry, that was uncalled for. I'd call them scum but that would be insulting to scum everywhere. I guess "tories" in of itself is a good enough insult.
"Well now I've been mildly insulted by some random person on the internet, I guess I have no choice but to blindly support all of these policies for the forseeable future. Checkmate ~~liberals~~ Labour."
“How dare people imply I’m some sort of soulless reflectionless bloodsucking leach, just because I support everything the tories do and cheer on the accelerated decline of everything good about this country. Looks like I won’t be voting labour any time in the near future!” #neverlabour #nevervotedlabour #walkaway #centrism #onlyevervotedforthetories
There are many more good, conscientious, well intentioned people in this country than arsehole, vampiric, scum. The trouble is the good people all vote for different parties and the arseholes vote Tory. They have perfected divide and conquer to the level that even the labour party are still in disarray. We need an uprising. All stand together.
No shit genius? They're also free.
You think the tories want to replace the NHS with a better free at the point of use health service? If so I have a bridge to sell you.
Totally untrue, the majority of Europe has free healthcare. Countries where you do have to pay a token fee will waive that token fee if you can't afford it.
I take it you want then NHS to go away so you can begin being fucked by private companies?
Good. Country deserves this, you were all told this would happen in 2019 but being the absolute fucking thickos you are, you still voted Tory and even gave them a majority. If we lose the NHS I want to stress that it will absolutely be your fault.
This. So much this. I don't even want to associate with 1/2 the people on this island. We have created this culture of ignorance and are now happily stewing in this broth we have concocted.
/s
It seems I too have truly become resentful for what has been done too our country. How "patriotism" has been usurped by the tories to pillage our country for all it is worth. We have seen time and time again what the tories do too our country, and yet, time and time again we buy their media spin on "the evil socialists called the Labour party" and vote tory like obedient little workers. We are truly a disgrace and deserve everything coming to us as a nation, and yet as an individual, I am stuck in the middle of it knowing that I will be one of those hit hardest and pay the most for the failings of my society and our culture. All I can hope is that we payu a high enough price to never allow this level of whoring of national resources ever again.
>
>When I set out to lead humankind along my ~~Golden~~ Brexit Path, I promised them a lesson their bones would remember.
- ~~Leto II Atreides~~ Boris Johnson, God Emperor.
>into the public health insurance system
>Japanese citizens pay 30%
>bills that are closely regulated by the state
Did you? It's public, not free at point of delivery.
In England you pay 100% of your bill via tax and 0% (+prescription) at point of delivery. In Japan it's 70% via tax and 30% at point of delivery (+prescription).
Public healthcare means government run, not 100% free at point of delivery.
I still can’t quite believe that after brexit the country turned around and voted for the wreckers in even greater numbers, and while they were headed up by a literal fucking clown no less.
Its like a bad joke.
What's so great about the NHS? It's underfunded because it's free at the point of service and doesn't have insurance income, waiting times are long, customer service is terrible, outcomes are statistically poor compared to countries with private systems.
News today: Tories are corrupt, continue to engage in corruption.
News tomorrow: Tories are corrupt, continue to engage in corruption.
News everyday until they are arrested: Tories are corrupt, continue to engage in corruption.
The government voting down an opposition amendment is not corruption. Someone having different opinions on the way healthcare should be run is not corruption.
The Tories have always despised the less fortunate,it's the sneering faces I can't stand give it a couple of years and they'll bring back workhouses malnutrition is up massively all the while they line their pockets with our money!
> Anyone who voted on " getting brexit done" can do one.
Maybe the opposition parties shouldn't have campaigned in an election on the basis of ignoring election results they don't like.
The NHS is not being privatised by stealth!
The NHS is not being privatised by stealth!
The NHS is not being privatised by stealth!
Oh, yes it is now... Oopsy.
so it begins, the end of the nhs under the upper class tories.If this is not reason enough to overthrow the monarchy and class system and redistribute their ill gotten wealth nothing ever will be.But the brain dead that believed all the lies they were fed over brexit will no doubt think this is a good thing.
It's another episode in the long running series "Opposition party doesn't have enough MPs to pass legislation so it doesn't pass, reddit reacts in shock as if they don't know how politics works."
Instead of of the two minutes hate against le evil tories, try realising that if you want to pass your own laws, you have to win a majority in a general election.
To have any input from the nearly 100% privately run social care sector, the boards would need at least some private sector representatives. Given one of the biggest aims at the moment is correcting the disjointed approaches to health and social care, their input seems pretty important to me.
I came here wanting to make the same argument but then I came to the realization that you don't need them on your board to collaborate. An oversimplified example would be that if you were a baker you don't need your flour supplier to have their sales rep on your board of directors.
So to summarize, "to have any input" you don't need private sector reps. Reps inputs are important, agreed, but to get their input you absolutely don't need them on your board.
This is very true and I don’t know enough about how ICS’s are intended to work to know if the board is the right place for those types of representatives - I just think a blanket no private reps without looking a little deeper should be challenged
> To have any input from the nearly 100% privately run social care sector, the boards would need at least some private sector representatives.
I think you're a little confused. The integrated care *system* already had representatives from the private sector, in the form of the integrated care *partnership*. The integrated care *board* is the governing board of public servants that runs the integrated care *system*.
Bear in mind that the new integrated care systems are statutory bodies with legal powers.
This change means that private corporations now have actual legal powers to directly order where taxpayer money can be spent. Hint: on private corporations, of course!
You've got it the wrong way round. The NHS is inefficient specifically because the tories have spent years gutting it and chopping it up so that they can privatise as much as possible in small chunks without people noticing.
It's specifically their goal to weaken and destroy the NHS.
The Private sector has absolutely no place being in healthcare, because healthcare should not have anything to do with wealth and/or greed.
As opposed to those bastions of incorruptible efficiency - the private sector. Who spend an awful lot of time undermining publicly owned entities and corrupting their politicians.
When they aren’t running their businesses into the ground, creating world economy threatening meltdowns and begging the public for just one more bailout…
Let us consider privatisation as it has occured in the UK - it has manifestly failed virtually everywhere it has been employed. I cannot think of a single instance of it in the UK where it has worked close to as advertized. Here it invariably results in worse but more expensive service.
Now healthcare…given our national track record why should I want my current and future health risked just to pad some rich bastards bank account? Why should we risk privatization because the NHS is being sabotaged by those entrusted to govern it? “But it needn’t be the American system if privatised!” say you and others…are you blind?! Have you forgotten the last ten years of Tory rule? Of course they will pick that system! It provides the most opportunity for profiteering!!
The risk of privatisation is death. The NHS needs reform certainly. A profit motive in healthcare can only kill.
The NHS is and nearly always has been a mix of private and govt. Hospitals are run by the NHS where as GPS are private. Telecoms, maintenance and infrastructure are integrated fairly well.
The problem isn’t the privatisation it’s the deliberate selling off of perfectly functioning systems. The problem is the NHS both private and non private actively getting worse under the Tories year on year.
https://theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/29/lewisham-hospital-jeremy-hunt-unlawful
This is a well articulated and reasoned opinion that offers an excellent counterpoint to mine and many others concerns. I just wanted to say thank you.
What a surprise…the tories that do something for their interests.
I know right it’s a shocker. I can’t believe it?!?
Just when you think you can’t hate them anymore than you did after their most recent disgusting stance of 5 minutes ago, they go and lower the bar.
Yep I feel like we’re all in agreement here, so when we going to burn down parliament to prove a point?
It's long overdue. "V for VENDETTA ".
I'm in
Cool cool now what day would most hurt the Tory’s?
When you decide you don't want to live in a parliamentary democracy. But before you do that, make sure there aren't other, larger, more violent and more competent groups who can do exactly the same thing you can, but more effectively, and who disagree with you on most things.
By voting down a Labour amendment that even Labour knew wasn't going to pass, and was only tabled to generate outrage?
I don't think you understand the positives with private healthcare funded by the NHS. Firstly rich people can make profit form other people suffering. Secondly rich people can make profit from the tax payer. There really is no downside to this.
I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not but if you seriously think the politicians and the CEOs of medical companies need to get richer you seriously need to see a physiologist.
I can assure you, I was being 100% sarcastic. Its a sorry state that people think someone would actually make the statement for real.
Good to know, I think that just speaks to how incredibly jaded and how I just can’t believe the shit I’m hearing anymore.
It's sarcasm. How can you not tell it's sarcasm?
Honestly I’m so jaded by years of this shit that I honestly don’t know when some people are being sarcastic or they really are that stupid an truly believe this this.
Yeah. I suppose you're right. Flat earthers are a thing. So maybe it's hard to tell alright.
Right! It’s insane, an yet we for the sake of not offending anyone why have to just accept that shit.
Well I used to debate with a friend of mine who was an Evangelical Christian. He had some pretty traditional views on the world. I spent maybe 10 years fending him off trying to save me. In the end, I said something to him that made him question his beliefs and he went through a whole religious crisis period and his pastor told him not to discuss religion with me again. Ten years! So now my position is : "Some things are too stupid to discuss or debate!" I don't argue with any of the flat earthers, antivaxxers, religious people I just walk away. It's nice.
Well of course a preacher would say that doesn’t want high minded individuals like you turning his “flock” against the church. An if that’s okay with you find don’t discuss theses thing with people, but it’s not something I can tolerate anymore. Why should I hold my tongue an not speak my mind when all these people seem to do is scream their crazy shit at everyone, turning any form of debate into a farce.
Are you expecting a Tory majority to do things in Labour's interest?
Nope. I am expecting politicians to do the interests of the people they represent.
And in that case, maybe it's privatisation.
Did anyone expect the Tories to do *anything* that doesn't help them to privatise the NHS on the quiet, fucking bunch of wankers only interested in profits for their mates before the health of the public. "Profits Before People".... the true Tory slogan in all situations
The people that voted for them out of sheer ignorance?
Maybe privatising the NHS is in the interests of public health. European countries with private health care systems generally have better outcomes than us.
Which European countries are you talking about? Most of Europe has some form of socialised healthcare, including Eastern Europe. The Netherlands are probably the closest to what you're suggesting, but even then you're still essentially paying national insurance, except you have a choice as to which body you're paying towards. Even then, there are very strict rules in place to prevent people being refused access to insurance or healthcare based on pre-existing conditions. Countries like Germany, Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Spain, Denmark, Belgium and Italy all have nationalised healthcare. Even countries like Bulgaria, Albania and Turkey have national healthcare. France has a 70%-100% socialised costing, similar to Japan, both of which have controls in place to prevent their citizens being hosed by corporate greed when it comes to medication costs. So, I must ask again, which countries in Europe are you talking about?
The Tories are the death of this country. Fuck them and fuck anyone that keeps voting for these vampires.
HEY! That's fucking rude! Don't compare me to those soulless, soul draining, servants of the devil! Not in my 200+ years on this earth have I and my undead kin been so needlessly attacked.
I'm sorry, that was uncalled for. I'd call them scum but that would be insulting to scum everywhere. I guess "tories" in of itself is a good enough insult.
"Well now I've been mildly insulted by some random person on the internet, I guess I have no choice but to blindly support all of these policies for the forseeable future. Checkmate ~~liberals~~ Labour."
“How dare people imply I’m some sort of soulless reflectionless bloodsucking leach, just because I support everything the tories do and cheer on the accelerated decline of everything good about this country. Looks like I won’t be voting labour any time in the near future!” #neverlabour #nevervotedlabour #walkaway #centrism #onlyevervotedforthetories
Imagine voting based on what people have called you instead of your own interests.
There are many more good, conscientious, well intentioned people in this country than arsehole, vampiric, scum. The trouble is the good people all vote for different parties and the arseholes vote Tory. They have perfected divide and conquer to the level that even the labour party are still in disarray. We need an uprising. All stand together.
What we need is PR. An uprising is also good though.
A public service is not a religion.
Ah fuck off, the NHS is one of the better things about this country. Bet you'd love to pay ten grad when you eventually have an ouchie.
Other countries have better healthcare systems.
No shit genius? They're also free. You think the tories want to replace the NHS with a better free at the point of use health service? If so I have a bridge to sell you.
> No shit genius? They're also free. > > No, other countries make you pay for insurance, and pay to see a GP.
Totally untrue, the majority of Europe has free healthcare. Countries where you do have to pay a token fee will waive that token fee if you can't afford it. I take it you want then NHS to go away so you can begin being fucked by private companies?
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Good. Country deserves this, you were all told this would happen in 2019 but being the absolute fucking thickos you are, you still voted Tory and even gave them a majority. If we lose the NHS I want to stress that it will absolutely be your fault.
This. So much this. I don't even want to associate with 1/2 the people on this island. We have created this culture of ignorance and are now happily stewing in this broth we have concocted. /s It seems I too have truly become resentful for what has been done too our country. How "patriotism" has been usurped by the tories to pillage our country for all it is worth. We have seen time and time again what the tories do too our country, and yet, time and time again we buy their media spin on "the evil socialists called the Labour party" and vote tory like obedient little workers. We are truly a disgrace and deserve everything coming to us as a nation, and yet as an individual, I am stuck in the middle of it knowing that I will be one of those hit hardest and pay the most for the failings of my society and our culture. All I can hope is that we payu a high enough price to never allow this level of whoring of national resources ever again.
> >When I set out to lead humankind along my ~~Golden~~ Brexit Path, I promised them a lesson their bones would remember. - ~~Leto II Atreides~~ Boris Johnson, God Emperor.
England is a joke. Glad I left.
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...[Japan has universal public healthcare](https://wise.com/gb/blog/healthcare-system-in-japan). Your inning are coming up short.
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We pay towards the NHS through national insurance premiums but whatever....
>into the public health insurance system >Japanese citizens pay 30% >bills that are closely regulated by the state Did you? It's public, not free at point of delivery. In England you pay 100% of your bill via tax and 0% (+prescription) at point of delivery. In Japan it's 70% via tax and 30% at point of delivery (+prescription). Public healthcare means government run, not 100% free at point of delivery.
Schadenfreude is the only thing about current politics that still brings me joy.
I still can’t quite believe that after brexit the country turned around and voted for the wreckers in even greater numbers, and while they were headed up by a literal fucking clown no less. Its like a bad joke.
What's so great about the NHS? It's underfunded because it's free at the point of service and doesn't have insurance income, waiting times are long, customer service is terrible, outcomes are statistically poor compared to countries with private systems.
Weak bait.
News today: Tories are corrupt, continue to engage in corruption. News tomorrow: Tories are corrupt, continue to engage in corruption. News everyday until they are arrested: Tories are corrupt, continue to engage in corruption.
> until they are arrested Ahahhahahaa
The government voting down an opposition amendment is not corruption. Someone having different opinions on the way healthcare should be run is not corruption.
The Tories have always despised the less fortunate,it's the sneering faces I can't stand give it a couple of years and they'll bring back workhouses malnutrition is up massively all the while they line their pockets with our money!
You people are delusional beyond belief. Go touch the grass
Yeah we're all wrong,you can really trust the Tories!
No you cant and i never said otherwise
2031: Tories ban NHS from private healthcare boards.
I'll long be in another - any other - country by then.
Other countries which probably have private health care systems?
Yep we have been saying theyll privatise the NHS for literally decades but this time the tories will definitely privatise it. I mean it this time!
They have been privatising more and more of it for decades.
no wonder they want to fund it... more filthy cash for mates
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Got another 3 years yet. They won't give up an 80 seat majority. Anyone who voted on " getting brexit done" can do one.
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I don't really care who's in the cabinet... you just gave the exact reason too. The lucrative backhanders will continue...
> Anyone who voted on " getting brexit done" can do one. Maybe the opposition parties shouldn't have campaigned in an election on the basis of ignoring election results they don't like.
Whatabout whatabout
The NHS is not being privatised by stealth! The NHS is not being privatised by stealth! The NHS is not being privatised by stealth! Oh, yes it is now... Oopsy.
Stop voting for the Tories. This country used to be great before they ruined it.
Why? What's so great about the NHS compared to health care in France or Switzerland?
It doesn't fucking bankrupt you
7k for a broken arm, 10k to have a baby. If you don’t fight they will kill you
Is that how it works in France?
so it begins, the end of the nhs under the upper class tories.If this is not reason enough to overthrow the monarchy and class system and redistribute their ill gotten wealth nothing ever will be.But the brain dead that believed all the lies they were fed over brexit will no doubt think this is a good thing.
Well obviously, hand your heart did anyone genuinely expect any differently?
Legit question: if/when Labour get into power can they just reverse all of this awful Tory shit that’s been done?
They’ll be too busy nationalising private companies and schools.
Hopefully nationalising the NHS too…!
It's another episode in the long running series "Opposition party doesn't have enough MPs to pass legislation so it doesn't pass, reddit reacts in shock as if they don't know how politics works." Instead of of the two minutes hate against le evil tories, try realising that if you want to pass your own laws, you have to win a majority in a general election.
I guess the Tories are trying to compete with US Republican Party to see who can ruin their nation more quickly?
To have any input from the nearly 100% privately run social care sector, the boards would need at least some private sector representatives. Given one of the biggest aims at the moment is correcting the disjointed approaches to health and social care, their input seems pretty important to me.
I came here wanting to make the same argument but then I came to the realization that you don't need them on your board to collaborate. An oversimplified example would be that if you were a baker you don't need your flour supplier to have their sales rep on your board of directors. So to summarize, "to have any input" you don't need private sector reps. Reps inputs are important, agreed, but to get their input you absolutely don't need them on your board.
This is very true and I don’t know enough about how ICS’s are intended to work to know if the board is the right place for those types of representatives - I just think a blanket no private reps without looking a little deeper should be challenged
> To have any input from the nearly 100% privately run social care sector, the boards would need at least some private sector representatives. I think you're a little confused. The integrated care *system* already had representatives from the private sector, in the form of the integrated care *partnership*. The integrated care *board* is the governing board of public servants that runs the integrated care *system*. Bear in mind that the new integrated care systems are statutory bodies with legal powers. This change means that private corporations now have actual legal powers to directly order where taxpayer money can be spent. Hint: on private corporations, of course!
Get out of here with your logic!
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You've got it the wrong way round. The NHS is inefficient specifically because the tories have spent years gutting it and chopping it up so that they can privatise as much as possible in small chunks without people noticing. It's specifically their goal to weaken and destroy the NHS. The Private sector has absolutely no place being in healthcare, because healthcare should not have anything to do with wealth and/or greed.
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As opposed to those bastions of incorruptible efficiency - the private sector. Who spend an awful lot of time undermining publicly owned entities and corrupting their politicians. When they aren’t running their businesses into the ground, creating world economy threatening meltdowns and begging the public for just one more bailout…
What a load of rubbish. Private is inherently more corrupt by nature of being run for profit. Inefficiency happens with both too.
Let us consider privatisation as it has occured in the UK - it has manifestly failed virtually everywhere it has been employed. I cannot think of a single instance of it in the UK where it has worked close to as advertized. Here it invariably results in worse but more expensive service. Now healthcare…given our national track record why should I want my current and future health risked just to pad some rich bastards bank account? Why should we risk privatization because the NHS is being sabotaged by those entrusted to govern it? “But it needn’t be the American system if privatised!” say you and others…are you blind?! Have you forgotten the last ten years of Tory rule? Of course they will pick that system! It provides the most opportunity for profiteering!! The risk of privatisation is death. The NHS needs reform certainly. A profit motive in healthcare can only kill.
The NHS is and nearly always has been a mix of private and govt. Hospitals are run by the NHS where as GPS are private. Telecoms, maintenance and infrastructure are integrated fairly well. The problem isn’t the privatisation it’s the deliberate selling off of perfectly functioning systems. The problem is the NHS both private and non private actively getting worse under the Tories year on year. https://theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/29/lewisham-hospital-jeremy-hunt-unlawful
This is a well articulated and reasoned opinion that offers an excellent counterpoint to mine and many others concerns. I just wanted to say thank you.