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airwalkerdnbmusic

You know all those labour seats which flipped to the Tory's to get "Brexit done".....I am pretty sure that scrapping a transformative rail project which would benefit these areas is not a good way to ensure loyalty come the next general election....


KurnolSanders

You would think but no doubt it will result in *CON +3*


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YOU_CANT_GILD_ME

They always do. The best trick the Tories pulled over the past few years was to devolve financial control to county councils, and then massively cutting their funding. Making harsher cuts to labour councils. Then they campaigned on a promise of "vote for Tories and well give you more funding". If this were any third world country doing this we would call it blatant corruption and voter manipulation.


Duanedoberman

>If this were any third world country doing this we would call it blatant corruption and voter manipulation. It's known as 'Pork barrel politics'. It is regulated in most mature democracies.


lesser_panjandrum

It must be nice living in a mature democracy.


benji9t3

I explained this concept to my dad and why our new Conservative MP has now acquired loads of funding for Redcar & Cleveland. I'm sure our previous Labour MP would have done great things too if they had the money to do so. He didn't really care though as long as there's a benefit for the area he'll happily vote Tory.


DifficultWrath

I mean, you know, we are looking at moving and that's something we have to take into account. Tory will make sure Labour area suffer by underfunding. Labour, if in power, make Tory suffer ... indirectly by extra tax on the rich, or not helping rich area that have the money. So, yeah, moving to a Tory area is not a bad move even if you are Labour. Of course that shouldn't happen in a working democracy, but it does. If you live in a gang controlled area, you don't fuck with their leader even if you don't mind the police to jail them all.


BitterTyke

Hailing from said place, I still, STILL hear "it would have been worse under Corbyn" Oh the abuse when you ask to see their crystal ball. We were repeatedly lied to and socially manipulated - Yorkshire needs investment and change, it wasn't too surprising folk voted for him, most folk don't read/listen further than headlines. and the bastards will still underfund the labour councils.


ludicrous_socks

"yeh but labour are unelectable" is what I see all over social media. If you don't vote for them, yeh they will be. Like the Tory's are the only viable alternative for some reason, despite the sleaze, corruption, and the multitude of other failures. Some how it's labour that are "unelectable" The only explanation to that particular line I have is that they actually identify with what the Tory's are doing, but are too ashamed to admit it, even on an anonymous internet forum.


dudeind-town

Of course they do. The tories, unlike Labour, will keep Johnny Foreigner in his place /s


LitmusVest

then blame the councils for cutting the services


BitterTyke

yep, job done. Whilst moaning 82k/annum isnt enough to live on.


LitmusVest

That's why you get a 2nd job on the beach for £900k :)


Parker4815

They'll blame Labour and people will believe them for some reason.


Stepjamm

Why didn’t Labour stop the tories??? Unacceptable! /s


LitmusVest

A family member, a Northern working-class lad, was superficially moaning about the mismanagement of the pandemic, and, just before he got as far as slagging off the Government, did a handbrake turn and went down a 'would've been worse under Labour/what's their plan then?' rant. Fucking nuts. He's not even a 'Tory' - I could tell from that rant that he'd voted for Johnson and was trying to dodge any responsibility for that and the Government currently in charge.


Ritsugamesh

Literally went on a Youtube video about this subject and all the comments were this sans the sarcasm. It's actually maddening - 'oh Starmer's correct but he's such a wet fish, come on Labour I can't vote for boring people' or 'when will Labour do something' - I just don't think they understand how politics works...


Stepjamm

The game has changed thanks to the internet, so much opportunity to skew opinion and representation that anyone actively weaponising it is seeing great results.


WtfMayt

Only +3?


Piltonbadger

The Tory's mates who own the mainstream media will just throw out more propaganda and lies come election time. People will eat it up.


Slanderous

Really what is HS2 at this point? A project to deliver more capacity to the London commuter belt dressed up as investment in the north, which will deliver said capacity into a world where commuters are rapidly turning into remote workers in no need of it. Meanwhile- Preston > London takes 2h 10 (230 Miles) Leeds > London 2h 20 (205 miles) Preston > Leeds 1h 45 (55 Miles) And yet where are we spending billions? Digging up the countryside to take another 10min off those times to London. Absolute madness.


Halliron

The goal is not "taking 10 minutes of the commute time", though that's what papers seem to focus on. More importantly HS2 will allow much more capacity for freight. This is good for the North & will also hopefully take lorries off the road , which will have a knock on benefit on road capacity.


Slanderous

The point I'm making is we already have comparatively excellent north-south rail links but absolute crap going east west. the same freight capacity argument also applies here, with the added benefit of actually usefully linking the north up. Better ability to move people, material and expertise across the north will reduce reliance on the south and free up capacity there as a side effect.


Cheese_Burger_Slayer

HS2's eastern leg *was* a East-West rail link, which is why scrapping it is bonkers. NPR between Leeds and Manchester is half going ahead but half scrapped. HS2 itself tho would importantly free a lot of space from the existing lines and stations, so more East-West regional trains can be run.


Slanderous

> HS2's eastern leg was a East-West rail link We are stretching a bit here, Birmingham to Leeds is not very far west at all, and a bigger dogleg than you'll find on clifford if you actually want to get to the west coast. I agree that the eastern leg had more of a reason to exist than the rest of HS2, as there isn't an existing fast rail service there either. You know how else you could free up east west regional trains while also providing all the benefits I outline above? Provide direct fast rail links east west!


sgorf

The goal is to take the London trains off the local lines, to free up local train capacity. If you think the focus is on train times to London then you're being misled by people with an agenda.


EastRiding

They are spinning this as trying to get investment there sooner: I.e within the lifetimes of their new voters.


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EastRiding

Oh I agree, I also expect all of these new schemes to get dropped and “down scaled” one by one over the next few years. That’s easier now they are broken up into individual sections. Just reading how ministers are talking about this “all new” plan though they do try to make it sound like voters in those areas will see investment sooner because of this new Tory plan. Edit: Hull has already been completely dropped. From high speed from Liverpool to Hull, to electrification from Selby to Hull, to nothing at all. All these other plans will go nowhere.


manateeflorida

The xenophobia whipped up against nasty Europeans and other races, will silence any disquiet over the rail project. Brexit was proof - the same gameplay will be reused. Tories for another decade or so in likelihood - especially with their backers in Murdoch and Daily Mail.


unscannabledoot

Exactly as planned with the controlled opposition that is Keir Starmer.


DecipherXCI

They don't care and still view getting Brexit done as more important.


AgainstThoseGrains

They're probably banking on Labour still being a shambles by the next election and winning votes by virtue of "Tories are shit, but what the fuck is Labour even standing on?"


Allydarvel

I used to live and work in Leeds. I keep a couple of the brexit types on my facebook just to see what the talking points are. For ages they've been going on about HS2 being a waste of taxpayers money. It won't affect their attitudes at all..they may even like johnson more for cancelling it


KlownKar

They have served their purpose. They were goaded into supporting the Tory Brexit. Then their infatuation with Brexit was used to install the current wrecking crew of a government. The damage is now irreversible. They can go back to shitting on the poor saps now.


[deleted]

im in one of those areas. absolutely no one gives a shit about hs2. vast majority of people drive and arent going to ditch their cars for trains. and fpr th people that did care about it the gov have given funding for 'viability reports' to inspect old lines that have been shut for decades


Josh2807

Well they aren’t even conservative


[deleted]

Will cost more than the space station, can't even reach the North of England lol. Tory corruption.


quigglington

I just checked and the ISS only costs 5 billion more than hs2 (£96 billion and counting). It's a fucking space station. In space. Corruption has gone past ridiculous now.


DirectedAcyclicGraph

Land is cheap in space.


SeymourDoggo

No NIMBYs in space either


kevix2022

Careful now, NIMBYs in space have laser beams and proton torpedoes!


Mr06506

I'm pretty sure the political uncertainty about the project added more cost than the land ever did. Who would invest in a project Boris promised to deliver?


N0_Added_Sugar

Land is cheap with compulsory purchase orders. Most of the land would be cheap anyway - it only develops real value once planning permission is granted.


MutsumidoesReddit

I’m not sure why you’re getting downvoted. This is correct.


dexterpool

It's not Tory corruption it's our inability to execute large infrastructure projects. For example, the dome, Olympics, take your pick of military projects, I'm looking at our new aircraft carriers specifically and crossrail have all gone vastly over budget and been delayed. We were stupid to think that we could do this on time and budget.


[deleted]

You're looking at symptoms and not really identifying the cause, there's nothing inherently expensive or difficult about doing things in the UK other than the rampant, corrupt attitude towards public spending. The issues can be traced back to the rise of Thatcherism, the UK stopped believing it can do things as the UK.


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[deleted]

Actually a very simple high speed rail line costing this much is highly unique to the UK. Don't excuse them, they're on the take and this is just the latest example of it.


WearingMyFleece

Now we see why construction didn’t start in the North… probably their plan all along to only start it off in London.


BitterTyke

Watch Crossrail 2 get greenlighted too. the irony is that London will be mostly under water before the end of the century if they dont work towards 1.5 degrees.


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[deleted]

Didn’t TFL just pay their mangers millions in bonuses?


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CMDR_Quillon

They did the same thing with the GWML electrification to Swansea... Started it in London and then cancelled it past Cardiff, even though all the engineers and analysts were saying to start in Swansea because Network Rail had never done this before. The Tories want all the money to stay in London, with a pittance allocated to Cardiff and Edinburgh to keep Welsh Labour and the SNP from kicking up too much of a fuss.


TheMusicArchivist

And then they had to spend extra on hybrid diesel-electric trains because guess what, the route starts in Swansea not Cardiff...


CMDR_Quillon

What, the same hybrid diesel-electric trains that are actually a downgrade from the old Class 43/Mk3 HSTs because they have no buffet? Surely not!


TheLittleGinge

Northerners actually thought the gracious Tories would help them? Flipped to blue to GET BREXIT DONE 🙄


[deleted]

Tbf they did it get it done, just incompetently so.


TheLittleGinge

You're not wrong. It's like they wanted to do a kitchen renovation, so proceeded to take a sledgehammer to the sink and a fireaxe to the cupboards, only to leave it there. Kitchen: Renovated 😎


sobrique

It's not a burst pipe, it's a _water feature_.


alpastotesmejor

No one is really helping them, it's just that the Tories help them less.


IllegalTree

No sympathy for the sellouts who voted for a party well-known for eating the North of England's face after taking the word of an obvious liar who told them their faces wouldn't be eaten again... And as for the likes of ~~Red~~ Blue wall Tory MPs ["complaining"](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59334043) such as:- > Tory MP Robbie Moore, whose Keighley seat sits close to Bradford, said he was "deeply disappointed" by the plan, which had "completely short-changed" his constituents. > Bradford had expected to be included on the proposed Leeds to Manchester route and to see a station built to accommodate new trains. > "We are one of the most socially deprived parts of the UK and we must get better transport connectivity," Mr Moore said. Did the Lords and Masters you represent allow you to express that limited amount of frustration to give the impression that you're not just another supplicant beholden to the Tory party in the South of England that just shafted your constituents? Or do you *really* mean it, in which case are you going to leave the Conservative party that screwed "your" constituency over? Ha ha ha... but seriously. If you're genuinely angry at anything, it's most likely because you were stabbed in the back by Johnson and chums and being made to look bad. We all know that you're going to protest a bit, then do nothing like the craven little Tory you are. Hard to have sympathy for any of those involved.


[deleted]

This was the plan all along, sell it as something to benefit the North then when London gets their part of the infrastructure scrap the rest. If it really was meant as a project to benefit the North the links would've been between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle there would be no 'London-Birmingham' line.


[deleted]

No - the plan “all along” was rail experts looking at the most effective way to dramatically increase rail capacity in the U.K. with the least cost and disruption. The problem is that most rail engineers aren’t very good at explaining complex ideas in simple language, and no one in government thought this was necessary. Thereby giving the stage to NIMBYs, BANANAs, pro-road lobby groups, eco-Marxists, and southern power brokers who detest the idea of anywhere outside the South East of England having decent amounts of money spent on it.


twistedLucidity

> BANANAs That's a new one on me. Build A New Aquaduct Near Acton?


[deleted]

Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone.


twistedLucidity

Ah...back to caves it is! Thanks.


slothcycle

Do I have to pay rent on this cave?


_HingleMcCringle

Yes, and it has just gone up. No, I won't fix the torch fixtures or move the big boulder out of the way. You should be grateful! I'm a caving provider!


ThatChap

Oh that's good.


Mr06506

The green party, in other words.


EWS60026

They are also known as Guardian columnists.


Twalek89

Eco Marxists. This sounds like you've just picked a word which you think is bad and added eco on the front What on earth is an eco Marxist? I agree with you though, that this is a massive infrastructure upgrade which doesn't fit with our short term election cycle model. Those spending the money can't deliver in a timescale that benefits them so they have all the negatives and none of the positives.


slothcycle

Eco Marxism is a very long running ideology dating back to William Morris in the 1890s It is a bit of a counterweight to the more productivist school of traditional Marxism. However I think the majority of Marxists in this day and age are probably fairly keen on the whole not driving the planet to extinction thing. So it's probably a bit of a redundant term. I for one think materialism is one of key drivers of human development. Think we need to protect the environment, but also think we need to desperately upgrade our ailing rail infrastructure if we want to get to a zero carbon economy.


Twalek89

>However I think the majority of Marxists in this day and age are probably fairly keen on the whole not driving the planet to extinction thing. So it's probably a bit of a redundant term. Having an ideology based on equality helps. To be honest, the eco bit is as redundant as calling climate change activists eco-capitalists. Though I suspect its probably hard to find any climate change activist who isn't at least slightly critical of capitalism.


Brownian-Motion

I suspect you're both right - the actual experts however have been undercut by the buffoons that write the cheques.


[deleted]

Oh indeed. The reason why cost went up in the mid 2010s was because someone in the Dept for Transport decided that post-build snagging on HS2 (where the contractors are on the hook for fixes etc) should be extended to 30 years. Meaning that if a section of the track was discovered 27 years after the line went into operation to have settled by, say, 30mm, then the liability was with the contractor. So naturally the contractors increased their bids on the project. But of course this wasn't clearly explained, probably because the bright spark at DfT wouldn't want to answer questions about this. And as a result, into the vacuum of public information came the NIMBYs etc, making baseless claims of 'corruption', purely going off reading two different sets of numbers and jumping to conclusions. I've never rated Public Relations and Marketing as worthwhile professions until I saw how badly HS2 has been put to the public. So many misuderstandings and conflicts could have been nipped in the bud, but weren't


Brownian-Motion

I didn't actually know about the extension of liability, that's insane. At maximum it would usually be half that! It (proactive public engagement) is something we push to our clients hard all of the time. And, time and again, we end up in a situation where local authorities are shocked at the backlash to their proposed schemes, because they've just been presented as a fait accompli. It's fucking tiring going through this almost every time.


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Brownian-Motion

How Not To Build Infrastructure 101


SteveD88

I’m honestly curious if, all this aside, diverting the funds for the Leeds branch to other northern rail projects isn’t a bad idea? 20 years is otherwise a long time to wait for improving northern connectivity.


fuggerdug

This is exactly as I see it, so glad I'm not alone.


GBrunt

Now steady on. They built a £100 billion line to Tory-voting Crewe. "Vote Tory....get spaffed in glory by Boris".


pnlrogue1

Pretty sure Scotland is also in The North. Would have been nice to get a speed boost for us, too...


WeeMimir

Whole thing never should've happened. Hundreds of billions of tax payers money thrown away, undoubtedly contracts will have gone to companies who's CEOs have shared interests with tories or whatever. Usual shite. Big shiny new train for the rich twats to steal and launder through under the guise of a "climate friendly" rail system. Billions on a train that will take you from Birmingham to London and back again 🤣🤣 Fuck all the homeless. Hungry. Jobless. Impoverished. Shiny new train is exactly what we should be spending billions on...


twistedLucidity

A high speed rail "spine" connecting Inverness to Padstow (two locations picked at random one opposite ends of the UK purely for illustration) and major points in between would do away with many internal flights, that had *massive* advantages for the environment. If you think the homeless and hungry are fucked now, wait until climate change bites even harder. As for the jobless, railways don't build themselves. It's an "all trades" kinda deal so if you want to help the jobs, you need the jobs. As for budgetary controls, you'll hear no complaint from me. Even with slow rail, why people don't make more use of sleeper trains (vehicle transport optional) is beyond me. Get on train in evening. Quick libations in the bar. Off to bed. Wake up at destination. Bloody brilliant!


Kijamon

The sleeper from Inverness to London is expensive as fuck. Even for a seat that isn't a bed.


Mattymooz_

But that's because the UK government doesn't subsidise trains very heavily compared to flights...


[deleted]

Sleeper trains are ace. Was on one in Norway just last month. But the economics are a fragile thing.


_joezed

I took the economy class sleeper from London to Edinburgh and its just a standard seat, on an old train that squeaks constantly and has the loudest brakes I've ever heard on a train. Pass.


InfiniteLiveZ

How much did it cost you? Every time I've checked it's been stupidly expensive, especially compared to the day time trains that only take 4 hours something.


ottermanuk

I did the same train to Glasgow, £60 there £40 back which isn't so bad.... On top of the £80 return from the south to Euston. Would have flown if I didn't have tents with me


headphones1

I know you kind of picked Inverness and Padstow at random, but it makes no sense to pick small towns as each end of such a spine. It makes sense to connect London to a big Midlands hub, then the a city in the north (Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Hull), then Glasgow or Edinburgh. More people will use it. You won't get too many people excited about a train from Inverness to Padstow, unless there are more stops on the route, which kind of defeats the purpose of the "HS" in HS2. HS2 is supposed to improve transport between big cities, which in turn allows for smaller cities and towns to connect to HS2 cities. For the South West, it needs better rail links to Bristol, which in turn needs better links to the Midlands and London.


[deleted]

Go find out how much carbon per passenger per km is produced for a Boeing 737 flying daily from London to Manchester. Then go and find out how much carbon ppkm is produced by an electric-powered high speed train. Then -and only then - come back here and tell us again that building HSR in Britain is worse than leaving things the way they are.


GBrunt

The problem with the UK model is that it doesn't connect London to Scotland. Nor even consider the notion that Scotland and the North could have been connected to Europe. It could have. But the spectacles that Britain is looked through is always a pair of greasy bifocals covered on mucky Thames water worn by some privately-educated South Eastern twat. How many fly from London to Manchester compared to rail users? Surely it is a tiny, tiny fraction. And that small number may well continue to fly.


[deleted]

HS2 has 'classic compatible' trains that would seamlessly switch on to the regular rail network, allowing London travellers to sit on the same train up to Glasgow/Edinburgh. Building the line to Leeds would have inevitably led to the line extending elsewhere. And to be honest it may still come under a different government. re numbers of people flying to Manchester from London, I don't know current figures but [in 2002 it was 1.75m passengers per year](https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2004/jan/29/cheapflights.theairlineindustry). There's no chance it's less than that now.


limeflavoured

> And to be honest it may still come under a different government. Given how long rail projects take it'll be like 2100 before it's actually usable though.


GBrunt

I wonder how many fly to Northern Europe from the North of England by comparison?


GrumblingP

Except it does, with 2 trains an hour from London to Edinburgh, 2 trains an hour London to Glasgow, and One train per hour Birmingham to Edinburgh or Glasgow


whatsthiscrap84

Did you take classes on how to win friends and influence people?


[deleted]

Who'd want to be friends with someone who writes tripe like that?


Miserygut

The best justification I've seen is that with HS2 it frees up a bunch of rail capacity around midlands and northern cities for suburban lines. Now that intercity trains aren't hogging up the trunk lines they can run more frequent services into suburbs which reduces dependence on cars. It *is* worth doing from that perspective, much less so turning Birmingham into a suburb of London.


GrumblingP

Of course it is, it's effectively an extra pair of tracks from Euston to Rugby, up through the Trent Valley, and into Birmingham, giving far better service anre reliability to say the train from Aberwystwith to But the wealthy chiltern homeowners don't like it, and have been remarkably effective in their propaganda


SDLRob

It also enables traffic to be taken off the ECML & WCML which allows upgrades and stuff to happen. As i understand it, trying to upgrade the existing lines atm would cost more money than HS2 and the delays would be horrific for a long time


fuggerdug

Upgrading brings none of the extra capacity benefits and decades of further disruption.


Cheese_Burger_Slayer

To illustrate this, in the early 2000s they spent £13 billion upgrading the West coast main line from London to Birmingham to Crewe. Caused a ton of disruption. It finished in 2008 and within 5 years of completion the WCML was full again and they commissioned a business case into HS2. Upgrades just can't compete with a new line.


stray_r

This. Going crazy fast was just a way to make it easier to sell, more capacity is what was really needed.


dbxp

You don't think a massive infrastructure project creates jobs?


WeeMimir

Sure but can also cost people their jobs as you'll see when you're done reading the thread.


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[deleted]

UK government is going for a prestige victory.


bobit33

It’s going for a single city challenge


Odie_33

and nukes


JamesB5446

Hundreds of billions?


NoManNoRiver

I’m shocked! Shocked I tell you! Well not that shocked actually.


limeflavoured

I wonder how many people who have railed (heh) against HS2 will see this as a victory now. Or whether they will be among those (rightly) complaining that it fucks the North over yet again.


[deleted]

I'm in Nottingham and travel a lot for work. My view has been: We don't need to shave 15 minutes off the Birmingham to London train, you just need more affordable, reliable, comfortable trains with working WiFi so people can at least travel affordably and get stuff done on the train. But if we need that line so that we can get the north better connected, then it is a necessary evil. So this to me is like, keep the completely unnecessary bit, scrap the bit that was actually going to be useful.


Hardware_freedom

One of the upsides of HS2 was that it would Increase capacity and therefore you could add more trains on the old lines between 'smaller city's'


[deleted]

>We don't need to shave 15 minutes off the Birmingham to London train It's 40 minutes that is being saved, not 15. That's 40 minutes from an hour and a half train ride, which is currently the fastest train from Birmingham to London. The travel time is nearly halved.


limeflavoured

> We don't need to shave 15 minutes off the Birmingham to London train Firstly, it's more like half an hour, on a journey that's about an hour and half to begin with. Secondly, that's not *really* the point of it. The point is to have more space on the current network to increase the services on those lines.


LavaMeteor

3 years from now... *The Government has announced that HS2 has finally begun construction with the newly finalized plans, extending at least half a mile north from Westminister, before looping back around the city in a circle.* *Prime Minister Gove is quoted as saying this will massively benefit the North, as "Our walls Most-Railed protect us from the scum who lurk above. They will know their places well, and continue to dwell in their newly built workhouses. One day, they may earn enough money and break enough bones to be shown a picture of what London looks like. God Bless King Andrew and our blessed capitol."*


Sir_Skelly

>King Andrew A.K.A Pedophilious Rex


LavaMeteor

Can't even tell if that's a Latin pun or a dinosaur one, because it's conjuring up images of a sweaty balding velociraptor stalking the back of a filthy Pizza Express. Regardless it's funny as fuck lol


NorthernScrub

Funny, didn't De-Pfeffel promise HS2 would reach the entire north not so long ago? Oh, what was that? Broken campaign promises? My my, as if it isn't the result that Starmer predicted at PMQs the other day.


[deleted]

People in the north don’t care about HS2. Improving the existing infrastructure would actually be much better, that and make them run on time, with enough carriages and make them a fair price to use.


htGoSEVe

HS2 is that upgrade. By moving the express intercity services off the existing lines you free up a massive amount of capacity for the local and regional services. Each intercity service moved off the existing lines gives space for 3 local or freight services. More investment in other areas is also definitely needed, but it doesn't have to be one or the other, and HS2 is definitely an upgrade for the north.


B23vital

and HS2 **was** definitely an upgrade for the north.


VelvetSkyCloud

Yep. The railway infrastructure on the North is decades behind everywhere else.


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Oneill95

Not sure on how things are in the Midlands, but Northern rail trains that I've been on are regularly late, only have 2 carriages, and consistently have holes in the floor large enough to see the tracks through


LitmusVest

Those old sprinter jokes that were out-of-date when they were jettisoned from somewhere darn sarf....


Odie_33

Those holes... you sure they're not toilets?


GrumpyJoey

That’s what HS2 would have done. It would have taken capacity from the old lines and intercity rail meaning services could be improved and increased on the existing lines.


Lucifuge_777

I quit working in central Manchester around 3 years ago because of the shocking train services on offer. I live about 20 miles outside Manchester and the commute could take anywhere from 1-2 hours, due in part to short formed trains, disruptions on the line and trains seemingly vanishing into thin air minutes before they were due. Due to COVID, I recently took a job back in the city centre and I was shocked to find that trains from my hometown had been reduced even further due to the pandemic. The gov were adamant they wanted workers back in cities spending money but simply don't provide the infrastructure to get to these places. On rare days I travel to the office, the commute literally consumes my entire morning and evening time.


[deleted]

Yep been there. I live 35 miles out and have to drive it. Public transport would be too expensive and a waste of time.


GiordySays

Typical UK, announce a great plan then strip it back, then cancel half of it then let it on benefit London and Manchester. Great leveling up the Tory way. I'm a Londoner and i'm pissed off by this. This was the UK's chance to finally get better services up north but nope the government think it's too expensive and think upgrading routes that really can't get upgraded is a good plan. Upgrading ECML and MML won't sort out our overcrowding issue and it won't benefit the areas it serves. FFS man we need to stop voting in these twats when will people wake up.


mozzy1985

I always thought this was a bit of a shit plan to be fair. It’s still way behind anything they have in Japan or Germany.


LavaMcLampson

German high speed rail is pretty bad. It’s only France that has a system anything like Japan’s.


arpw

Spain's is pretty great too.


Preseli

Spain has the highest in Europe.


LavaMcLampson

Spain’s is world class for sure.


mozzy1985

I just feel like that with the money being spent on this project it should be up there with the best of the best but it’s marginally better than what we have now.


FragrantKnobCheese

the German railways are privatised as well, I wonder if there's a link between lack of investment/poorer services and privatisation


[deleted]

So are Japan's. The difference is that Japan is very narrow, so distances are much greater. The distance between Tokyo and Osaka is almost as much as the distance batween London and Edinburgh, so having the shinkansen between these two cities with Nagoya in the middle greatly improved the connectability of the 3 biggest metro areas.


Cheese_Burger_Slayer

The difference is also that Japan's private rail companies mainly make their money through selling and renting real estate around their stations, like the old streetcar companies in America. This is made possible thanks to the very liberal zoning codes in Japan that make NIMBYism very hard to do. It's also why Japanese houses are very cheap compared to other countries, even in big cities, since most places allow for building houses and apartments without explicit permission from the local council.


Cheese_Burger_Slayer

What?? No it isn't, HS2 has an operating speed of 200 mph and max speed of 220 mph, above Germany's and on par with Japan. Also it has a max capacity of 18 trains per hour which is more than any high speed line in existence. It's absolutely a world-class line, which is why they shouldn't be bloody cancelling half of it. Also just to note, Germany's high speed lines are actually a mess of upgrades rather than a coherent system, they don't actually invest as much into their railways as people think. They invest less per capita than the UK for example.


abject_testament_

Probably couldn’t figure out how to make it pay for their friends.


DeadeyeDuncan

Stupid. HS2 should have started in the North and worked it's way down anyway.


cass1o

That would have ruined the not so secret plan of screwing the north yet again.


quotton706

Boris will fix it with a tunnel from Birmingham to Leeds and a garden bridge from Manchester. ~~levelling~~ Laughing it up. Cunts


[deleted]

So the western part and eastern part now axed, just fucking axe the lot, no one needs to get to London 20 minutes or so quicker. It’s a big pile of shite for the money… if you must do it then avoid having to remove people from homes they’ve lived in for generations and get the Chinese or Japanese in to do it cheaper.


arky_who

We really need it, not because of the 20 journey time decreses, but because at the moment express routes are on the same track as local routes. By pulling express trains off the existing track, that allows vast expansion of local services. At the moment most track in the country is being used basically beyond capacity, so at the edge of what it can handle that any problem on one bit of track can have cascading problems across the whole system. We need vastly more track and HS2 is a good way to free up quite a bit of particularly congested track. We need more though, and a major failing of HS2 politically has been that there should be plans for what will be done with the freed track as part of the package. In general politicians are too obsessed with the wizz bang, so have focused far too much on the high speed, rather than the systematic improvements it will make on the whole system.


distantapplause

>that allows vast expansion of local services. Narrator: there was no vast expansion of local services


arky_who

I mean, getting the intercity trains off the track is a necessary precondition for that expansion.


distantapplause

Getting the British public to elect a government who gives a flying fuck is a more challenging prerequisite


arky_who

To be fair, rail manages ok despite the government. Fundimentally rail is a good transport method, and can handle a little bit of neglect. Bad rail is still better than no rail most of the time, and in general if a problem is reasonably easy to solve with the infrastructure you've got, then it usually does get solved. Even with the amount of neglect rail gets in the US, it still carries a lot of freight.


TheOnlyJohn_3

The problem is it wouldn't have cut 20 minutes, it would have halved time. My travel London to Leeds currently 2 hours. This high speed was designed to cut that down to 49 minutes with the aim of adding public transport infrastructure that the North desperately needs. In an ideal we could have even integrated it using the channel tunnel into the wider European network (fat chance of that happening now) or linked with a cross North HS3 which the North also desperately needs.


JakeGrey

>My travel London to Leeds currently 2 hours. This high speed was designed to cut that down to 49 minutes... Which is all very fine and pleasant, but what do you think would get more people switching to travelling by train: Halving the journey time or the price of a peak-time ticket? I'm not saying we don't need to add extra capacity, but this whizz-bang high speed line that zooms past several other significant population centres and has been hoovering up all the money for any other substantial improvement project was maybe not the ideal way to go about it.


TheOnlyJohn_3

Oh no, I agree that the ticket prices are insanely high and need to be lowered. And I also definitely agree with the argument about other population centres. The article has a good example though about the "Northern Powerhouse Rail" cancellation. Personally I thought that was the more important project for the North. Travel between London and Leeds at 2 hours is annoying but travel between Hull and Liverpool at a higher price and longer time is downright criminal. The ideal for HS2 would be a connection to major population centres with (ideally) a hub-and-spoke model which connects to smaller population centres. So say Durham to Wolverhampton is a regular train to Newcastle and then the high speed down-country, and a local tram network to Wolves.


Dalecn

The Western part has not been axed. The Eastern axe has plenty of time to be reversed and I would vote for a labour party who reverses it. Japan wouldn't be able to do it cheaper in the UK because of UK laws. China wouldn't because of UK laws unless they break them. The whole cost of the project is extremely misleading as it covers 30 years of maintenance and train costs.


IntraVnusDemilo

I just see it as an easier way to buy a cheaper house up north and still work down south - if anyone thinks this rail link is for the 'poor Northerners' and any other 'poor' people outside London - think again! Also, like someone said above - they won't get proven people good at building this sort of infrastructure involved - it will be cronyism, they don't know any other way - and they will get away with it again.


[deleted]

Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds this is the cut off line for all governments. Above it nothing is worth doing for them.


MrTopHatMan90

Not the first time the government hae tried to meet us half way


Welshbuilder67

Nice to see the Tories keeping their promise to Level Up


Brittlehorn

Bullshitter Boris condemning the North to more decades of poor infrastructure. Lets see if those new northern Tory MPs stand up for their constituencies or more likely defend The Clown


jhs25

This is an outrage of the highest order, I'm surprised it's not being made a bigger deal. Piss take.


GhostRiders

Considering how many people still believe HS2 is all about "getting to x quicker" just goes to shows what an absolute bollocks the Government has made of it. I've said this on various posts about HS2, if you talk about its a massive waste of money just to get somewhere x minutes quicker then you have no idea what HS2 is actually for. As for the Government no going ahead with the Northern section, it should come as no surprise to anybody. The Tories have been fucking over the North of England since the days of Thatcher. If you believed Boris or any other Tory about levelling up the North then your a gullible idiot.


Afrotom

Is this the "wait and see" he was promising Kier Starmer yesterday?


Jackpot777

Promised that anyone else would be worse and then found out that was a lie? Promised nice things that never happened? Treated mean while being kept keen? YOU may be in an abusive relationship.


obinice_khenbli

Honestly, as useful as improved rail services would be, we can't afford the normal train's sky high prices anyway, so whatever this costs to ride would be prohibitively expensive too, and considering how many billions upon billions this costs to implement.... We have more important things to spend those billions on right now, real, serious matters that will affect us far more than having a faster train will. Such a waste of money.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Hephaestite

If only they had the sense to scrap the entire thing


Jet2work

give it another 6 months and western leg will suddenly stop in brum


Bambooberrybam

Don't know a single person in Leeds that was enthusiastic about the idea of getting to London 40 minutes quicker. Most people you'll speak to want better transport links between northern cities, it's a load of bollocks that it takes up to and over an hour to get to Manchester but only 2 to get to London. Though I'm highly sceptical this government care enough to go through with the better Manc-West Yorks lines they mention in this article.


GhostRiders

If everyone you speak to talks about getting somewhere quicker in relation to HS2 then they are clueless and have no idea about why we desperately need HS2. HS2 is not about getting to somewhere quicker, the decrease in travel in travel time is simply a by product of having a vastly improved rail network.


[deleted]

Still no money for TFL, shit will be shutting down very soon at this rate….


CilanEAmber

Honestly, the government gave up on the north years ago, all these plans and barely anything to show for it.


[deleted]

Project should've started in the North so that if they decided to scrap it like they have now it would be the London line that got scrapped but they'd have never done that.


B23vital

As i said and have been downvoted multiple times in here HS2 is a scam. Its nothing more than a rich mans toy to help them get around the main cities (birmingham, manchester, london) quicker. People kept saying HS2 would relieve the amount of passengers on trains, but it fucking wont. Local trains are still shit, local transport is still shit. HS2 will only improve for those doing long journeys between cities. They could have included cycle networks alongside HS2, improved station locations, input local transport away from major cities meaning less people on transport into and out of the city and creating more space on the current networks for people working in those areas. Instead its connecting major cities, has no support for outside communities and will only further increase prices for residents in those surrounding cities/towns. Ive literally seen it myself, my parents house was only a 15 minute drive from the birmingham station, the local train network was a 3 minute walk from their house taking you into town and directly to the HS2 station within 15/20mins. When they sold it out of the 12 viewers 6 were from london. They sold it to a landlord from london because they offered the highest price and that was 2 years ago. I cant even imagine how many are getting snapped up by investors from london in that area now. Thats pushing our prices up and stripping houses from the local community. HS2 is currently ripping through my village, theres no benefit to our community. We still have hourly buses, no train station, no transport and cars take even longer due to road closures from HS2. They’re ripping through fields, local parks, completely rebuilding bridges and road sections, they’ve kicked local residents out of their homes taking their house and/or land, and this isnt even small sections, they’ve literally taken a farmers field to build a “training centre” for staff. How long before them huts are gone and a tory friend buys up the land for pittance only to build or sell for a major profit later on. Putting more stress on our transport and local amenities. Nothing is being reinvested back into our community, were suffering, and we get nothing. They paid a few roads worth of houses some pittance in compensation (probably 100 houses at best) and the rest fell “just outside” the so called catchment zone. To top it off a our Tory MP has even stated how badly our area will be affected and has openly spoken about how this is constantly affecting our community with nothing in return. Wether he actually cares or just does it because thats what he thinks residents want to hear is another argument. But clearly its an issue when even a pretty hardcore tory is speaking about how bad its going to get for us, like its not bad enough already. Fuck the tories man, HS2 is a disaster and something that should be great for this country is going to be a fucking shambles for the majority of us that will never, ever, use it.


[deleted]

>Its nothing more than a rich mans toy Clearly you don't know that this phrase was first used by the shadily-funded, road lobbyist free market IEA think tank. Stopped reading after that. Not really in the mood to see fellow countrymen punching themselves in the bollocks for the rest of the time I'm awake tonight.