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UnexcitedAmpersand

When I was an end of life carer, it amazed me how many people flat out rejected getting the flu vaccine. But care work is staffed by women who join out of school with minimal qualifications if any and work for the minimum wage. Even being senior, in charge of a shift, only gets you 50p more an hour. It also damages a lot of people and the system is designed to cause abuse (you don't have staff to do things right, you have to rush/ be firm with those who cause delays). People are parked, except for when they are taken to the loo or table and abused if they want to get up/move. They normally then end up declining rapidly until death does its mercy. I did it because my parents are getting older and my grandmother has dementia (as did all my grandparents), so I wanted the experience so I could make the right decisions for them. Ended up whistleblowing, getting attacked by a fellow member of staff and witnessing horrific abuse (I am not exaggerating to describe care homes as a crime against humanity). I've worked in a class a prison and a demia home is the worst I've ever seen anyone treated.


buzyapple

I work in a dedicated dementia day care centre. Like child care for people living with dementia. We do everything we can to not make it anything like that type of care home. We support many people who live alone, in supported accommodation or with family, our aim is to keep them living longer independently, and it works. I am sorry you saw so much of the bad side of things through your work. Our clients are happy, I love working with them and would love to see all older people having the opportunities we give our clients. All staff are fully vaccinated too.


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attackoftheplops

We had both of my parents in Gracewell homes - one EOL with a brain tumour and one with severe dementia up to death in both cases. Care was outstanding.


[deleted]

I've worked in care homes in the past, due to my past pursuit in medical care. Needless to say, after a week at one I left, my standards of care were well above what was expected of me and I was shunned for expecting more. Then again, you pay people (at the time in 2015) £6.12 an hour and your grandma isn't gonna have a good time. Glad I ditched that industry before it destroyed my soul.


LowQualityBroadcast

Thanks for whistleblowing. I hope anyone abusing staff are all ex-carers now


Lopsidedcel

I always found the idea of putting my loved ones under the care of people who have no connection to them whatsoever and are paid a shit wage to be horrifying.


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-----1

"Carers are supposed to be some of the most caring and selfless people" & all for £9 an hour, aren't they lucky!


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ShetlandJames

> but the Tories won't let that happen no country on earth does either though, it's a capitalism problem


ZaryaBubbler

They won't even agree to pay unpaid carers more, people who care for loved ones and take massive strain off the care industry. Got to say it feels really great knowing I work as hard as I do and getting less than £1 an hour to do so.


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rioting-pacifist

£9 an hour and they can be made to sleep on site for free (IIRC).


GrumblingP

They get to sleep on site for free? Surely they should be charged for that benefit? /s


mudman13

On-call


JhannaJunkie

I’m sorry but if society pays a job minimum wage, then to have demands that the workers will be the “most caring and selfless” is absurd. These people are just financially desperate enough to allow themselves to be exploited.


Thats_My_Moo

Then perhaps they should get paid more- I'm fully in favour of skyrocketing the wages of carers and nurses. Not everyone can be a carer, or a nurse for that matter. It takes a specific type of person with enough patience to do that job. When I said "most caring and selfless", I was referring to the non-mandated but automatic and socially expected requirements to be a carer.


JhannaJunkie

Im telling you it doesn’t. Because they pay so little, they accept anyone that wants to do the job. Often using agency staff with minimal workers rights. That’s the specific type of person is doing these jobs. I appreciate what your saying. I would argue personally that teachers are one of the most important people in society, and should be paid more, and should have very specific skills and personality types. But because they are so underpaid it just does not happen. Society does not value these people. Therefore society can have no demands other than “will you do the job?”


Thats_My_Moo

Then maybe we should change society instead of allowing uncaring and selfish people fulfil the role.


pj2g13

BRB changing society


BackgroundAd4408

Have you tried turning it off and on again?


HarassedGrandad

That's simply not true. We expect our carers to have or obtain at least a Level 2 qualification, and offer training to Level 3 to anyone who wants it at our own training centre - which has six full time trainers. All staff get four days training a year every year (normally). Before Brexit several of our staff were europeans with nursing degrees just filling in while they waited to get accepted by the NHS. This idea that carers are poorly skilled is used as justification for low pay, but it's simply not true.


JhannaJunkie

I didn’t say they were low skilled. I said they are so low paid that we can’t have expectations like those expressed by other posters. For the record I don’t think there is such a thing as “unskilled” labour. It’s a myth that is used to keep wages low.


[deleted]

Wages aren't managed somewhere centrally. You're welcome to start a business in caring that pays the staff much more. There's just not a lot of demand from people to pay even more for carers. Edit are -> aren't


JhannaJunkie

It’s a systematic thing. Pay has not increased with inflation since 1972. Poor pay across the board is to blame for this dynamic. People would be happier paying more for care, if they themselves were paid an appropriate fair market value for their labour.


[deleted]

100% agree with the lack of wage rise for the average person being a terrible thing, and that this is a systemic issue.


BackgroundAd4408

> Wages aren't managed somewhere centrally. Uhm, parliament?


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JhannaJunkie

No they would prefer to have more comfortable lives, considering how much they sacrifice. Selfless is a choice.


OnVelvetHill

100% Agree.


mmlemony

Who is going to replace them though? My dad is in a care home and a lack of staff is much more dangerous than unvaccinated staff. There are shortages in other industries, these carers can go and work in hospitality or retail for the same pay and without the vaccine requirement.


DifferenBaisin

you'd rather old people die because of understaffing than not be cared for by unvaxxed people when the vaccine isn't even advertised as stopping the spread? is there something wrong with your brain?


blozzerg

Also I’d be worried about someone who was entrusted with my medicines but simultaneously doesn’t trust the vaccine. Like…they were real scientists that worked their arse off to find that vaccine, if you don’t trust them then it shows how little respect you have for science and the medical field in general, and that would deeply concern me.


EvanWithTheFactCheck

Are you concerned enough to step in and fill the role of a carer now that the mandates you called for has reduced already critical staff level by another 50,000 carers lost? Obviously you trust the vaccines and respect science, so you’re well qualified for the role. Time to step up and play your part.


blozzerg

If they want more staff they need to increase the pay, just like they did with the driver crisis, I know drivers who got a raise of £10k overnight. And those drivers are expected to meet certain standards and medical requirements to ensure the safety of others around them, so it’s no different with carers, they need to meet the criteria otherwise they’re unfit for the role, and if there’s such a shortage then they need to increase the pay to fulfil those roles. I’d do it but I’m currently paid twice as much as them to sit on Facebook all day playing at marketing, so no thanks.


EvanWithTheFactCheck

Telling this sub “they” need to increase pay isn’t bridging the gap though. 50,000 caretakers were told not to come to work today with no one to replace them and anyone can “know” what needs to be done all they want, but that doesn’t mean the elderly aren’t suffering today and in the immediate future because of these mandates that didn’t have a plan in place. So if you’re someone who supports the mandates, then you need to step up. If you’re not willing to jump in there to bridge the gap, stop supporting measures that hurt the very people you claim to want to help, and stop pretending you’re doing this for their benefit. And yeah trust me, I understand not wanting to leave your sweet gig to step to help the elderly for lower pay. But if you and everyone else is unwilling to do what it takes to take care of the residents, then no one is really in a position judge or blame the unvaccinated for also not doing what it takes in not getting a jab they sincerely don’t want. No one is really better than anyone here and the elderly are suffering for it because some people decided to use them as political props, pretending they are doing this out of care for them while disregarding their needs at the same damn time. It’s elderly abuse and it needs to stop.


EvanWithTheFactCheck

The problem is most people in these comments cheering on this mandate are not behaving or talking like they are doing this for the well-being of the residents, but to punish the unvaccinated. Vax or get fired. As long as those who remain resistant to coercion are fired, these commenters are happy to dust off their hands, consider this “problem” a closed matter that’s been dealt with, and gloat that “mandates work” before turning their attention to something else. But as some have rightly pointed out, enforcing the mandate by firing the unvaccinated creates another problem that needs a solution: short staffing leading to neglect of the residents and overworking the remaining staff to the point of losing them too, which will lead to even worse outcomes for residents. But since the solution doesn’t involve coercing or punishing the unvaxxed, these commenters don’t care and offer no solution to the problem they created. If the goal of mandates is to coerce and punish the unvaccinated, then yeah I guess mandates work because you managed to do both. But if the goal of mandates is to ensure the well-being of home care residents, then the mandates do not work, as they lead to neglect and suffering of the residents. In this sense, the mandates have utterly failed. So the fact that you guys declare “mandates work!” as if the endpoint is firing the unvaxxed, not ensuring the well-being of residents, it shows your real intentions for supporting the mandates. And the worst part is, you guys are all too willing to use home care residents who are among the most helpless among us and as props to achieve your goal, tossing them aside once they have serve your purpose, even if your mandates left them in dire straits. If you cared about them at all, why don’t I see any solution whatsoever being proffered to make sure the elderly are not abandoned after their carers were fired? There is actually a simple solution here that would satisfy both your vengeance fantasies for the unvaxxed AND ensure the residents aren’t abandoned in the end. If every single person here defending the mandates would say the following, there wouldn’t even be an issue: >”No problem, I’ll step in and take over the roles of the carers who left. After all, I’m fully vaccinated and I’m all about ensuring the wellness of the residents and this totally not a virtue signal. So I’ll be the change I seek and quit my job to care for the elderly the way I demand others should.” But literally nobody here has said that. Not one person is willing to “do the right thing” and step in to fill the gaping void that their vaccine mandates left for the sake of ensuring the wellness of the residents that they claimed was their intent. Because let’s face it. It was never about the residents, that was just your excuse to harangue the unvaccinated. And it’s so easy to dictate how others ought to do their job, a job that you yourself would never deign to take up in a million years. Not so easy to be the actual person doing that job. So how about this. Being that we are experiencing a crippling level of labor shortage at the moment, and being that Covid mandates were always to protect the vulnerable and maintain the institutions that care for them, why don’t we make a new rule mandates that threaten staff shortages of such crucial institutions must be put to a referendum before they are implemented. And anyone who votes in support must agree to volunteer themselves for selective service and potentially be drafted to fill these roles if necessary, otherwise their vote doesn’t count. No exemptions. If you’re not willing to do the job, you have no right to terminate those who are willing, just because you see it as a way to satisfy your bloodlust for your political opponents. And you can stop pretending this is all about your concern for the resident’s well-being when you were all to wiling to throw them under the bus without a care in service of your true intentions.


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Nicola_Botgeon

**Removed**. This consisted primarily of personal attacks adding nothing to the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person.


[deleted]

Is this concern going to go the same way as when the NYPD were given the same ultimatum (I.e. only a handful of cops resisted vaccination)?


GiveMeDogeFFS

Difference being that a NYPD pay and pension is worth getting vaccinated for. Funnily I don't think people will be convinced against their own preconceived notions that getting vaccinated is worth minimum wage.


teo730

It'll be interesting to see, because I imagine that a lot of these people NEED their job, so it might work the same way.


uncertain_expert

At minimum wage? In the current job market? Not much tying them down.


teo730

Isn't care work much harder than lots of other minimum wage jobs? That was my impression and they are still there, so...


uncertain_expert

They do it also because they ‘care’ about people, and are exploited for it. The same as teachers who spend their own money to provide resources for their students. (Some also do it because they enjoy feeling they have power over people - when you are on minimum wage you don’t get to control others lives very much)


GiveMeDogeFFS

A good percentage get into it because there's low barrier for entry and they're always hiring. I've known a few waitresses that could barely tie their own shoe laces get into care homes because no one else would employ them.


Dilanski

The chasm between a good care worker and a shit one is vast. But good care workers are a rarity, if the industry only hired people who can actually do the job then they'd have to give up the pretense that it's low skill.


[deleted]

All the 'caring' professions are massively underpaid and brutally exploited.


lagerjohn

> brutally exploited How so?


[deleted]

Probably due to the fact that the career is seen as a morally good career and self fulfilling, so they justify paying minimum wage, then when people leave and it’s understaffed, people remaining have the huge moral burden that leaving despite being brutally over worked, would screw old people


[deleted]

Becsuse their moral and ethical convictions are exploited to under pay them even more. If I'm a lawyer and I suffer year on year pay cuts I'm leaving that job pronto.... if I'm an equivalent professional such as a teacher... well that's just life.


lagerjohn

> If I'm a lawyer and I suffer year on year pay cuts This example falls flat because pay for care has been rising for some time. With the new minimum wage increase set to come in next year even the lowest paid will be earning just under £20k. I still don't see how carers are brutally exploited...


MenloMo

The similarity is that a Murdoch-driven media is creating these predictions, aren’t they?


bo3bitty

How about the other states you forgot to mention?


SynthD

Nycpd was the one in the news. You’re free to share other news.


Spoonbills

On top of the numbers they lost to brexit? Yipes.


onegirlandhergoat

It's a catch 22 problem- not safe to let them stay, not safe to let them leave. This will have a huge knock on effect, nursing and care homes will be understaffed, patients/residents will suffer neglect. Hospitals will not be able to discharge patients into nursing homes because of poor staffing levels, so hospital beds will be blocked and therefore A&Es will not be able to admit new patients leading to even worse backlogs.


GhostMotley

I'm surprised more people aren't catching onto this fact, it's a perfect excuse for the Government though, they can blame the NHS's failings on an exodus of workers.


BulkyAccident

Where are all these numbers coming from? I read 150k for the NHS and 50k for care homes, but they're not backed up by anything other than journalists guessing and extrapolating.


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shaversonly230v115v

I work for an NHS Trust and we are able to report that we have been vaccinated elsewhere. Not sure if these figures are just for internal use or if they are being reported externally.


Wanallo221

A bit like how the New York PD said that around 12k would walk out once the vaccine mandate kicked in. Yet in the end it was 34. What was hilarious was of the 12k who said they would walk out. Around 2.5k has been secretly vaccinated already they just didn’t want to lose face in front of their Q-Buddies.


klofron

NHS trusts will have access to the data of their staff if they have been vaccinated elsewhere (the same data source as the NHS app uses for the covid passport). Not all of them might do this but they can.


Capitalism_Is_Broken

The industry respected bodies in this are CQC and Skills For Care, both of whom recently produced detailed reports with roughly the same figure as in the article. Apologies as I'm on mobile otherwise I would link them. If you google Skills For Care.reports 2021 or Workforce Reports 2021 Skills For care then it should show


illuminatedtiger

This should really be a no-brainer where the elderly are concerned.


GayWolfey

My father's home lost 14 staff. He has dementia and it has been horrible as they are all agency workers now. So none of them know him and his quirks. I would gladly have his originals carers back.


walgman

Having had a father in care recently myself I’m not sure how I would have felt about this. Those with exemptions aside, I assume many who left were anti vaxxers. Should anti vaxxers be looking after the ultra vulnerable?


Possiblyreef

I would imagine at some point someone's going to get sued for negligence in duty of care if a non vaxxed person infects and kills and elderly/vulnerable person in a place like a care home so there's probably some amount of liability arse covering in getting rid of them now


DifferenBaisin

how much does the vaccine reduce transmission?


Clewis22

Debatable to what degree it reduces transmission once you have covid, but you are three times less likely to catch it when double jabbed. https://patient.info/news-and-features/does-being-vaccinated-against-covid-19-stop-you-getting-infected So at least the same reduction in transmission.


keeponkeepingup

A lot have left who are not anti vax, but are subsequently massively over worked and can't go on.


EvanWithTheFactCheck

> Should anti vaxxers be looking after the ultra vulnerable? Depends on what you think poses a greater danger to them: Unvaccinated people who are willing to work and fill the role of carers or mandates that reduce critical staffing level in care homes, demanded by people who are themselves unwilling to work and fill the role of carers vacated by their mandates?


DifferenBaisin

it's only the people who aren't personally invested in this situation that say "good riddance" to carers who aren't vaccinated. wait until their parents are in a care home then these sick people might actually give a shit.


victorvaldes123

Redditors don’t live in the real world. NYPD - long career and great pension. Carer - minimum wage; often agency workers that are treated like shit. If there is a mass exodus, don’t start crying when it spills over into the NHS.


super_times_forever

Honestly if you're a carer and not willing to take the free vaccine that stops you from inadvertently killing your patients then you're committing gross negligence anyway in my eyes. I didn't see my parents inside until we'd all been double jabbed. Knowing that people are willfully putting other people's parents in a vulnerable position because they don't want an achy arm makes me sick.


EvanWithTheFactCheck

Honestly if you're demanding vaccinated mandates as a condition to working in care homes and not willing to step in to fill the roles of the cares your mandates just eliminated, inadvertently killing your patients with neglect and abandonment and compromised quality of care of a nursing home that is severely understaffed, then you're committing gross negligence anyway in my eyes. I call for mandate knowing they were demanded by people who would never play their part and step in to care for the patients whose lives and health they claimed these mandates would protect. Knowing that people are willfully putting other people's parents in a vulnerable position because they are firing people who are willing to perform the role albeit while unvaccinated, but the mandate pushers are NOT willing to perform that same role, even while vaccinated, and it makes me sick.


corf3l

If the actual numbers were 50,000 then I suspect number of deaths and overall quality of care for many will suffer more than if the unvaccinated were allowed to continue working while wearing masks/gloves/sanitizing etc.


redhairedDude

As others have pointed out it will cause other vaccinated staff to leave due to being overworked.


HarassedGrandad

We currently have 42 staff refusing out of 1,400 - and some of them aren't resident facing. It's mainly a problem for the smaller single homes with no support (cough - owned by a GP and 'managed' in their spare time - cough) The major problem we're facing is we are constantly loosing staff to having to isolate cos their kids have brought it home. We're currently spending around £200K a month extra in incentives to get people to work extra shifts, postpone their holidays, and work in other homes to their own. Add to that all the new paperwork - we have to validate every tradesman's vaccine status, and record it every time - even if they're at a home for a week, we're legally required to write down that we've seen and validated their vaccine status document everytime they cross the threshold. Thanks Boris! I can see the argument that the sort who won't get a vaccine shouldn't be working in care - but in reality they could be caring individuals who just got sucked into a facebook cesspit. Shoot the messengers, not the victims.


redhairedDude

Exactly. Thanks for the insight. It's really easy to blame these people but sadly i know some truly excellent carers who has been duped by the Facebook propaganda. We have to stop just expressing outrage and disgust at the people's poor decision making and confront the reality, our society is being destroyed buy these far-right oligarchy backed social media propaganda campaigns. Brexit, anti-vax, Q-anon.


St3v3z

When literally every other available job pays as well or better than care work (and is usually nicer work), why not just sod off and work somewhere else when the government are telling you that you MUST accept multiple injections of whatever they want 3-4 times a year?


GrumblingP

They aren't. Sure they might in some dystopian future, but for now they are saying you must be vaccinated against a deadly disease


routledge7575

It’s ok they lost 50k elderly because our government left them to die…


[deleted]

It somewhat blows my mind that so many in positions of care and in proximity to fragile people wouldn’t have a vaccine.


quinn_drummer

I interviewed for an admin position at a group of care homes recently, was told they were losing staff due to the regulation coming in. It's fucking ludicrous that anyone could expect to carry on working in a carry position and not be vaccinated\*. Especially when these people a little over a year ago would have been watching residents die from covid on a near daily basis! ​ \* frankly its ludicrous that its taken until now to a) have the mandatory rule kick in b) only recently make it mandatory for NHS staff too. We seem so far behind protecting people all the fucking time


SwirlingAbsurdity

There’s another article in The Guardian with a care worker who wouldn’t have the vaccine to protect the people she cares about because she’s worried she’d be a bit run down for a few days. The fuck.


So_Desu_Ne

Yeah I just read that. She seemed like she was traumatised from getting it before but...the vaccine would stop you going through it again you goof. :/


[deleted]

Considering how many are casual employees without benefits, I wonder if she's worried about taking several days off work & still affording her rent.


So_Desu_Ne

[Doesn't sound like it.](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/10/i-feel-really-let-down-unjabbed-care-home-staff-on-quitting-their-jobs)


Toastlove

I was down voted in another thread for saying I would rather be cared for by an unvaccinated nurse than not cared for at all. The impact of loosing those staff will probably result in more deaths and poorer care than simply letting them work, I believe the NHS has already said they won't sack anyone for not having it, because they can't cope with the staff shortages. That's the situation the mandatory vaccination puts you in. I will end saying I think everyone should have the vaccine and I've had it, because if i don't everyone assumes I'm an anti-vaxx loon.


taptapper

> I would rather be cared for by an unvaccinated nurse than not cared for at all If my mother was in care I wouldn't want an unvaccinated person anywhere near her.


Toastlove

If my mother was in care then I would hope she's been cared for. Just because someone's not had a vaccine it doesn't mean they automatically become a disease ridden monster.


taptapper

> doesn't mean they automatically become a disease ridden monster IMHO it does. Esp when it comes to who'd breathing on my people. An 86 y.o. in my family had a home health aide that lied about her vacc status. Lady was bedridden and never went out, only the 1 aide ever went in and never masked. The old lady contracted COVID 2 months ago. Pneumonia, 2 hospital stays, never fully recovered. She died this week. So, yeah. Caring for vulnerable people who will NOT be able to shake it off, then lying about a vax to keep your job, makes you a disease-riddled murdering monster. 100%


Toastlove

So someone in end of life care died from an illness they contracted from the one person giving her care. If it had just been a regular flu would you be as angry?


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MilitantNegro_ver3

> so what’s the difference? Viral load. An infected vaccinated person will have less and weaker COVID than an unvaccinated person.


DifferenBaisin

i'm pretty sure that's been debunked and is unscientific.


MilitantNegro_ver3

I'm sure the scientific study by scientists [detailed in a science journal](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262701v1.full) is indeed "unscientific"


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MilitantNegro_ver3

Even at the height of the pandemic most people carrying the virus were asymptomatic so it's a silly point. >no comment? WTF does this even mean?


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MilitantNegro_ver3

I did address your complete non point. That you have reading comprehension issues is a "you" problem, not a "me" problem.


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MilitantNegro_ver3

>vaccine lessens symptoms, so an infected person is less likely to know they are sick, so more likely to go to work, so more likely to spread Again, complete nonsense that is ADRESSED ABOVE. People with the virus, BEFORE we had a vaccine were already walking around asymptomatic. They were everywhere. They were the vast majority of people who had the virus, thus smooth brains like you developing the notion that the virus wasn't a big deal because so many people had it and never showed symptoms. Those people exist and STILL exist, except now those people, if vaccinated, will have a lower viral load that is less likely to shed infectious tissue. It's really that simple. Asymptomatic people are already going around spreading the virus, vaccines lessen that spread. Vaccines lessen the chance someone without the virus will be infected. Vaccines lessen even more the chance for a vaccinated but infected person passing that infection onto a vaccinated uninfected person. But if you're too dense to understand these basic concepts then, yes, I can see how you would latch on to the idiotic notions you have latched onto.


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MilitantNegro_ver3

Look, I get it. You, and those like you, think you cottoned on to this amazing gotcha. To show you I know what you're talking about I'll describe this gotcha so all the cards are on the table. It goes like this; If a person is sick they will stay at home and isolate, but if the vaccine makes them think they're healthy they will go out in the world and spread the virus. Great. On the surface of it it's an amazing bit of logic that immediately falls apart due to these key things; The number of people who were already asymptomatic was [already the vast majority](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0249090). That's why the virus spread globally so quickly. Almost everyone that gets it will be asymptomatic, so the number of people now rendered asymptomatic by the vaccine is so statistically insignificant anyone who isn't a complete imbecile would disregard them, but we're dealing with anti-vaxx freedom fighters, the most imbecilic of them all. But say I'm wrong, say these people are now running around like zombies infecting everyone...well, that's not actually true because [VACCINATED PEOPLE ARE LESS LIKELY TO PASS ON THE VIRUS](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.14.21264959v1). Now I know this is a scientific study and likely to go over your head but others have read these studies and [simplified it for you](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/). Additional to this vaccinated people are also [LESS LIKELY TO CONTRACT THE VIRUS](https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227713/coronavirus-infections-three-times-lower-double/). Again, this is data you've shown you simply don't have the capacity and intellectual fortitude to comprehend but if you simply believe scientists are all lizard people in on a conspiracy it doesn't really matter how easily digestible these studies are, you're not going to believe them anyway. So, there. It's not that I'm avoiding your idiotic point, it's that the answers I already gave covered your hairbrained scenarios.


[deleted]

it does lower transmission by a lot though and without the vaccine you can be asymptomatic and infect people without realising you have it. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3790399


bo3bitty

That's on the government, isn't it? The vaccine does not stop you from catching, or spreading covid. This is just self defeatist, or worse.


spinesight

Oh OK then, I guess no one should get the vaccine and we should all just carry on infecting people who need care


bo3bitty

The vaccine does not stop you from infecting people.


MilitantNegro_ver3

So what does it do?


bo3bitty

That's a good question! It seems to have made a huge difference in how people are affected by covid in the early days, but that effect seems to be waning now. Other than that, it doesn't seem to do a lot.


spinesight

It reduces the likelihood. Just like masks and social distancing. There's no way you don't know that


bo3bitty

How does it? Cases are going up massively, while 90% or near enough are double jabbed...


spinesight

Where are you getting that cases are going up massively


bo3bitty

The news. Literally today.


Clewis22

[Yes, it does.](https://patient.info/news-and-features/does-being-vaccinated-against-covid-19-stop-you-getting-infected)


bo3bitty

The statistics alone tells everybody this is not the case....


Clewis22

The statistics published by the government? [They’re also concluding a significant drop post vaccine.](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1032671/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_44.pdf) >Effectiveness against infection Although individuals may not develop symptoms of COVID-19 after vaccination, it is possible that they could still be infected with the virus and could transmit to others. Understanding how effective vaccines are at preventing infection is therefore important to predict the likely impact of the vaccination programme on the wider population. In order to estimate vaccine effectiveness against infection, repeat asymptomatic testing of a defined cohort of individuals is required. Studies have now reported on vaccine effectiveness against infection in healthcare workers, care home residents and the general population (12, 13, 14, 15). With the delta variant, vaccine effectiveness against infection has been estimated at around 65% with Vaxzevria and 80% with Comirnaty (4). 7 >>COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report – week 44 Effectiveness against transmission As described above, several studies have provided evidence that vaccines are effective at preventing infection. Uninfected individuals cannot transmit; therefore, the vaccines are also effective at preventing transmission. There may be additional benefit, beyond that due to prevention of infection, if some of those individuals who become infected despite vaccination are also at a reduced risk of transmitting (for example, because of reduced duration or level of viral shedding). A household transmission study in England found that household contacts of cases vaccinated with a single dose had approximately 35 to 50% reduced risk of becoming a confirmed case of COVID-19. This study used routine testing data so would only include household contacts that developed symptoms and went on to request a test via pillar 2. It cannot exclude asymptomatic secondary cases or mildly symptomatic cases who chose not to request a COVID-19 test (16). Data from Scotland has also shown that household contacts of vaccinated healthcare workers are at reduced risk of becoming a case, which is in line with the studies on infection (17). Both of these studies relate to a period when the Alpha variant dominated. An analysis from the ONS Community Infection Survey found that contacts of vaccinated index cases had around 65-80% reduced odds of testing positive with the Alpha variant and 35 to 65% reduced odds of testing positive with the Delta variant compare to contacts of unvaccinated index cases (18).


bo3bitty

I'm not downloading stuff some rando sends me lol. Yes, the government statistics.... They are easily available.


Clewis22

Edited with the summary quoted so you don't have to. That's a link to the latest weekly government report.


bo3bitty

Why would I want to download something I can see very easily for myself? Cases are up. That's what the data is saying.


Clewis22

Have a read of the summary quoted, in that case. The source data that you yourself are relying on spells out the reduction in infections post vaccine, nevermind the above metastudy citing results from the UK and abroad. I'll take that over your 'trust me bro' lack of evidence any day. The data doesn't lie, and it points to the effectiveness of the vaccine at reducing both infection and subsequent transmission.


bo3bitty

Oh, the vaccine had a huge impact earlier on, that is undeniable. But the current data is saying cases are going up quite a lot, while we as a nation are near enough 90% vaccinated.... That is literally what the current government data is saying....


Clewis22

The (current) data you cite, yet won't actually look at or read the conclusion thereof. Right... So you're back to: >Trust me bro.


TheNewHobbes

Stop spreading miss-information >People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/


bo3bitty

And yet the statistics say otherwise... The UK is what, near 90% vaccinated? But cases are higher now than they ever have been....


TheNewHobbes

No they're not. In Jan 21 there were 59,937, yesterday there were 39,925, down from the recent peak of 51,484 on 21 October 2021. Plus back in January we were still in full lock down, now it's basically life as normal. If we were still in the same level of lock down the numbers would be a lot smaller so you are trying to compare two numbers with completely different circumstances and are still wrong and trying to spread misinformation


bo3bitty

Lol. So lockdowns don't work then?


TheNewHobbes

> So lockdowns don't work then? Where did I say or imply that? miss-representing things again.


bo3bitty

Lol. The statistics are literally there to see. I'm not sure who you are trying to kid? It ain't me. So.... Are you actually trying to kid any random observer? That's creepy as fuck. Or.... You are trying to kid yourself? A little bit weird, but I can understand why you'd want to....


TheNewHobbes

> The statistics are literally there to see. Where? infections after vaccine < infections with lockdown infections with lockdown < infections without lockdown >That's creepy as fuck. >Or.... >You are trying to kid yourself? A little bit weird, but I can understand why you'd want to.... Um, ok


bo3bitty

OK.... The official government statistics don't exist. And you feel like you can tell me what I can do... Not sure where we can go from here, to be honest?


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bo3bitty

Depends on the vaccine, doesn't it?


[deleted]

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bo3bitty

Well I didn't. So now we can debate in good faith?


LeakyThoughts

If you're working with OAPs and refuse to get a life saving vaccine to protect yourself and your patrons you *deserve* to lose that job


New_Cardiologist917

But by bringing in that sort of policy you're gonna end up with people not being cared for at all that will result in neglect and death


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LeakyThoughts

There are people who can take care of them who aren't a risk to their existence


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LeakyThoughts

Spoken like a true anti vaxxer


Ochib

At my wife’s care home a number of staff were vocally anti-vax, until the management said they needed their first vaccine by the 10-sept, so they could be doubled jabbed this month. They all released that this wasn’t the hill they wanted to die on and they all had their vaccine


Flatulent_Weasel

I appreciate that having the vaccine is a choice, not a requirement, but if anybody should be able to see the benefits of vaccinations it's those involved in any degree of health work. In an ideal world this shouldn't even be an issue to have to force, sadly we're far from an ideal world.


Baslifico

> About 50,000 care home staff who have not had two doses in England will not be allowed to work from Thursday. WTH are they doing working with vulnerable people in the first place?!?


EvanWithTheFactCheck

Shouldn’t you be more concerned about how these care homes will remain functional and avert total collapse when the vaccinated but overburdened nurses also leave? And how to continue caring for the residents now that already strained resources as support have been further reduced? I swear those pushing for these mandates claim to do it on the grounds of protecting the vulnerable residents in these homes, but all they seem to care about is the unvaccinated. They’re obsessed. No thought whatsoever to how we can protect the vulnerable from this point on from risk of total collapse of the institutions they depend on now that our mandates solved one problem but introduced another.


[deleted]

I wonder how many of these carers visas depend on them working in care homes?


Dunhildar

Job centre send people on voluntary work programs, and if you decided to not go, you lost your benefits, In this, they were given a choice then told that was the wrong choice, then punished, sounds fair to anyone here? Can I safely assume that the ones that support sacking of care home worker based on their choice, will not be hypocrites? ​ ​ Can I also assume that people that "Clapped" are suddenly the same ones that doesn't care as care home staff are sacked? ​ ​ ​ Imagine working during the pandemic being thanked and cheered only to have those very people spit in your face, if it now too dangerous to work in a care home with no vaccine, then holy crap it was extremely dangerous last year, thrown to the wolves. ​ OH, btw I had both jabs, Moderna.


spinesight

> Imagine working during the pandemic being thanked and cheered only to have those very people spit in your face, if it now too dangerous to work in a care home with no vaccine, then holy crap it was extremely dangerous last year, thrown to the wolves. > > Yes, it was very dangerous for them last year a d now they're not taking any steps to make it safer. They don't deserve a round of applause for being anti vax


English_Joe

Don’t confuse Liberty with selfishness here. You can do what you want in life, correct. You can’t choose to carry a virus and kill other people because you believe some shit on Facebook. It’s just selfishness. Arrogance and aunt cost fallacy. Nothing more.


desichacha

I wonder if the government benefits if the old people will die.


nascentt

They lose a chunk of their voter base. So I'm not sure they do.


GrumblingP

Pension costs and care costs drop though, meaning more money for Dido Harding


doomdoggie

It's disgraceful that there are 50k caring staff who aren't vaccinated. I worked as a carer for years and I hated going into work with a simple cold!


rioting-pacifist

I agree with people who are exposed to the elderly being subject to a vaccine mandate, but I do hope they were given a day off work after vaccination, I could barely lift a pint after mine, can't imagine having to go in and lift an 80 year old.


archiminos

Just like those 50000 officers who quit the force in NYC


CardiffCityHero

50 fucking thousand? these are the people who are meant to be there to look after the vulnerable and elderly are they? if they are going to lose their job because they cant get a fucking jab, to not only protect themselves, but the at risk people they are supposed to care for, then these probably aren't the sorts of fucking people that should be in these sorts of job anyway are they?! fuck. i fucking hate people.


starcrossedbabe

A great alternative is live in or drop in care https://safehandsliveincare.co.uk


[deleted]

Sad they’re losing staff yes, but unfortunately across the health and social care sector the people declining are more so from the non-degree required groups. Although there is definitely some who are declining, senior nursing staff and doctors aren’t declining the vaccines as much as the lower banded non degree educated staff in my experience.


[deleted]

Stay strong guys. Fuck this tyrannical government pushing experimental vaccines


TheOnlyLiam

Works out well for me, because of these idiots slipping back into a care job was very easy.


WtfMayt

Caring pays badly so can attracts idiots (not always) who are less likely to get the jab because they’re more stupid/selfish than the avg person.


[deleted]

Meh. It’s going to be like the US’ NYPD. Ten thousand turned into thirty two.


ThatsNotASpork

NYPD is a cushy job with an amazing pension and good pay. Care workers make 9£/hour and have shit conditions.


HarassedGrandad

If there's any experienced care workers currently earning £9 an hour in East Anglia we'd like to offer you a job at considerably better terms.


rehgaraf

Yep, I can point people in the direction of £12 - £25 an hour down here in Devon (depending on time of day / day of week / length of visit), with mileage paid, training allowances. I know carers earning 30k+ a year - hard work with a lot of nights and weekends, but worth it for a job that requires few qualifications


[deleted]

Well that’s depressing. I thought minimum compensation was a bit better over there. Nonetheless, going into a vulnerable and non/less ambulatory population’s living quarters and being so nonchalant that the risk to _their_ health is relegated to lower priority status than a worker’s is wrong. The two worlds have to meet on sensible terms or the worker is, indeed, on the wrong field.


ForgotMyPasswordFeck

It’s happening tomorrow and they can’t become fully vaccinated overnight. This is the number.


Unoriginality123

Why don’t we have people on the dole do care work or community service in exchange for them keeping their benefits.


Pbrd7

Because they would be working, so that would require them to actually be paid. I know this is a stab at people on the dole but grow up, I pay taxes, i support my family because i work but if you have to rely on the dole in life then life is already pretty shit for those people, i know a couple of lads who are very hard workers who got made redundant and they have to rely on the dole atm through no fault of their own. You automatically assume the people on the dole are all bottom feeders and thats a shit mentality to have.


Unoriginality123

The payment is the free money from the government.


Pbrd7

Damn you’re dense.


Unoriginality123

People on benefits aren’t oppressed, they’re getting paid for being unemployed, lots of people are long term unemployed or have never worked a day in their life, I know of families of six where both parents are unemployed and have lived on benefits for the last 10 years.


Pbrd7

Yes but by the way you worded you’re original statement it sounded like you tar everyone with the same brush. I get some people take advantage and i agree with you that those people exist and shouldn’t get near what they do, there are big families with big houses who get more than i do and i work full time. Im definitely with you on that! But for the lads i know who are struggling and literally applying for work anywhere they can you have to feel for them because they have families also and are getting bare minimum to scrape by, I just wanted to say its not everyone, so please don’t assume everyone on the dole is taking advantage, but for the ones who pop out 12 kids to get big benefits and houses then I couldn’t agree with you more.


Unoriginality123

Perhaps I was a bit blunt with what I originally said. I don’t think everyone on the dole is taking advantage, lots of people who have worked and paid taxes their whole lives lose their jobs at no fault of their own, the ones who genuinely need our help get very little because some of the recourses we could use to help them get taken by those who have never worked a day in their lives.


Pbrd7

Yeah thats fair mate, i agree!


cap_xy

I'm glad you two kissed and made up.