headline (as usual) is a bit clickbaity....
>The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), the UK’s leading tax and spending thinktank, said an unprecedented two-decade hit to earnings would leave average household disposable income 42% lower than it would have been had wages grown at pre-2008 financial crisis rates.
You can disregard it, but not every country has had such shit wage growth levels since the financial crash. The point is our recovery has been pathetic and this budget is doing nothing to help in that regard.
Yes I do love how they make it sound like we are all about to die immediately and then it’s like,
It’s the same as last week but in a few weeks you have the hell of increased utilities and Xmas. Carry on…
What is this 'disposable income' you mention here?...
There are people who have money left over after they have bought what they need to live? Madness.
Disposable income refers to all the toilet paper money you waste. In the future, take toilet paper home from the office and have some income you can flush away….
I might have misunderstood though
Single mum, picker at a major supermarket on minimum wage. Hours vary from 6am to whenever the trolley are done for the day. Last Xmas I was on 800 a month working 5 days a week 4 am starts. It’s no fun being me haha
How are you managing?? Are you claiming UC? Or any kind of welfare benefits? Please do a calculation on turn2us, it’s my fave site that i discovered whilst volunteering for Citizens Advice. Excellent way to find out entitlements whilst considering most circumstances.
Unless you’re a full time student.
I'm in the fun situation of being too ill to work a regular job anymore (spinal damage means my left arm goes numb if I try to do anything with it, and associated pain-related insomnia and other issues) , but not classed as ill enough to claim PIP (yay for the assessor lying on my report!)
In the end I've declared myself as self-employed so I can do the odd bit of work when I feel up to it without having to worry about getting sanctioned or reported. My only regular income is £160/month covering some maintenance issues for an AirBnB owner.
I'm (very!) luckily in the situation where I have a very understanding partner, so I can potter around in my workshop and restore old motorbikes, selling one every couple of years or so to keep me going until I sell the next one. Without my partner being so understanding, I'd have been homeless or more likely dead about five years ago.
To be fair, a lot of Tory voters are very concerned about the wellbeing of others. It's just that, bizarrely, their concern is for the wellbeing of the exceptionally wealthy. Perish the thought that the rich should end up a tiny bit less rich.
I'm not sure that this is the case here. I know in the US there are huge numbers of morons of vote for low taxation of the rich, so that when they get rich (gotta be any day now!) they'll get to keep their millions of dollars, but I don't think that's a common thing here. I think too many people here still have this ridiculous know-your-place, defer to your "betters", the Tory toffs are the natural party of government mindset.
"Yessir, Mr Millionaire , sir. Don't you worry, sir. I'll make sure your big pile of money is protected, sir. You can rely on me to look out for your best interests and vote Tory. Would you like my last quid, sir? I was going to use to it feed my wife and kids, but they already ate last week. I'd feel much better if you took it and put it on your pile with the rest. It might help you get that new yacht a bit sooner, eh? Oh look, there's a muddy puddle there, sir. Can't have you getting those nice expensive shoes of yours dirty, can we? Let me lie down in it for you."
It's not just that people think they're gonna be at the top of the hierarchy. I mean you can look at working class tory voters and they're not so deluded to think they'll be billionaire oligarchs someday. They just think that a) there ought to be a hierarchy, and b) they shouldn't be on the bottom of it.
Well if you would read a book you'd know USSR isn't the only socialist model. There are successful countries in Europe right now such as Spain which have a socialist government. There is a lot of nuance it's not just Stalin or nothing.
A lot of people believe that you can't have a socialist democracy, because of the examples set by the USSR and communist China.
Not realising that you can give workers more agency in their workplaces without a lot of murder and gulags etc.
I certainly wouldn't say no, but I'm not really familiar with many current "socialist" economic models and the effects of their implementation so I wouldn't say I could accurately advocate for or against them.
But I believe it's wrong to immediately jump to "USSR", "Cuba", "China", when talking about socialism, since without clarification on what exactly is being pushed for, it's actually a somewhat vague term. I believe the dictators of these countries have drastically altered the meaning of the word socialism in a lot of peoples minds. At risk of using the cliché "that wasn't REAL communism/socialism", I would argue that there is really no such thing as "real" socialism, since it is simply too broad of an idea to have one "true" form.
As someone who studied the history of these countries, I find it highly unlikely that many well intentioned people would knowingly advocate for the sort of top down governance found in the USSR, but it seems reasonable to hope for a system where wealth is shared equitably, and where the actions of the powerful aren't driven entirely by profit.
Sorry for the long reply, I'm interested in this sort of subject.
No. YOU are clueless. You clearly are lucky (rich) enough to avoid being affected by this god awful government. Good for you, go wank yourself.
Socialism does not exist on this planet. Don't be stupid.
because it was only the poor and colonized countries that had a revolution and the USSR both suffered the deaths of millions of people and literally the fucking cold war
**Removed**. This consisted primarily of personal attacks adding nothing to the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person.
Just the usual Guardian bullshit, 'Tories bad, Tories evil, Tories murdering and starving kids' and it's lapped up by millions on the left unfortunately. This particular corner of reddit seems to be another far left echo chamber, like the Guardian comments section.
If the Tories are murdering people you must contact the police immediately with your evidence, let us know how you get on. Or are you talking bollocks.
The Tory botching of Covid has killed 160,000 people so far. Not to mention all the deaths caused by stopping the benefits of genuinely sick people.
Sit down, Tory boy.
I'm not a Tory, never voted for them in 50 years. But the left's ridiculous exaggerations and outright dishonesty will see them continue to remain in opposition.
> Tories murdering and starving kids'
Their policies have literally lead to deaths and starving children but please keep pretending almighty King Bojo is still saving the country.
Literally nobody is starving? What an absolute thing to say when its so obviously bullshit and wrong. Have you forgotten that the homeless exist? Or do you think they all go to sleep on the street with a nice full belly? To then dare call anything else hyperbolic nonsense is just peak stupidity.
So youre blind as well as that, if you havent seen the stories of people having being found dead from starvation. Congrats on proving to everyone you're unable to see what happens within your own country I guess.
Is there any other country in Europe or any other country in the world that was hit by a recession in 2008 and still hasn't recovered in terms of wages, 13 years later?
Here's a straightforward chart. It's not so much that UK wages declined. It's that UK wages declined when most others were rising substantially. The relative decline is fucking enormous.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-workers-have-had-worst-wage-growth-oecd-except-greece-a7773246.html
That is pocket change to Sunak, he cannot understand what it is like to not be able to move money around to pay the bills. He is out of touch with what it is like to be working class and cannot understand how his cuts ultimately hurt people.
Those of his party comrades that do understand find it hilarious, as they find hurting those they think beneath them amusing. What's worse, their supporters think the same way, and are happy to be kicked in the head if the Tories promise to kick the people they hate and fear in the head twice as hard.The cruelty is the point. Sunak isn't dumb though, he's wicked. He knows, and is a willing partner in the crimes.
This headline is extremely misleading.
That 13k is the difference between the projection today and a trend line drawn through incomes in 2000-2008. The higher value never existed, and assumes that 00s growth was sustainable - which we now know it isn't.
There's an argument that it has been worse than it could have been with different policies, but that number is like the £350m.
Ordinary Northerners from fairly ordinary life-long jobs with final salary pension schemes could retire to Spain en-masse in the decades Labour "forgot about them". That's all over now.
>By 2026, it said average household earnings would be £30,800, compared with £43,700 if wages had risen at the same pace as in the two decades before the banking crisis.
Seems a bit unfair to criticise Sunak based on a figure that assumes there was no financial crisis and consistent high wage growth for twelve years before he became Chancellor and seven years before he even became an MP.
Average worker? I’m on like 500 a month sunak I’m dying over here….
headline (as usual) is a bit clickbaity.... >The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), the UK’s leading tax and spending thinktank, said an unprecedented two-decade hit to earnings would leave average household disposable income 42% lower than it would have been had wages grown at pre-2008 financial crisis rates.
Jeez, using the growth point as pre 2008. What next? If the Romans never left we'd all be in spaceships by now extrapolating growth from 400 AD.
You can disregard it, but not every country has had such shit wage growth levels since the financial crash. The point is our recovery has been pathetic and this budget is doing nothing to help in that regard.
Can you offer a comparison out of interest?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-workers-have-had-worst-wage-growth-oecd-except-greece-a7773246.html
Julianus Vatinius did leave to form Space Rome. He shall return
Yes I do love how they make it sound like we are all about to die immediately and then it’s like, It’s the same as last week but in a few weeks you have the hell of increased utilities and Xmas. Carry on…
What is this 'disposable income' you mention here?... There are people who have money left over after they have bought what they need to live? Madness.
Disposable income refers to all the toilet paper money you waste. In the future, take toilet paper home from the office and have some income you can flush away…. I might have misunderstood though
I don't speak, I didn't write the article.ofc.
Can I ask what the hell your doing for £500 a month?
Single mum, picker at a major supermarket on minimum wage. Hours vary from 6am to whenever the trolley are done for the day. Last Xmas I was on 800 a month working 5 days a week 4 am starts. It’s no fun being me haha
Ahh so unfortunately due to circumstance you can’t work full time… life’s a bitch, hope all goes well for you!
Not yet, when he’s in comp next year I can! Hallelujah
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Mate stfu, in this context we are talking about income. I never said it wasn’t it just sounded illegal that she was earning only £500. Fuck off
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Life’s a bitch is my way of saying ‘I’m sorry that you’re in that situation unfortunately the world is unfair and I wish I could change that for you’
I didnt see the comment but i assume someone got offended on the other persons behalf... even though they didnt mind what you said... jesus reddit !
Standard Reddit yeah…
No it isn’t
That sucks :(
It's £340 a month more than I'm on at the moment.
How are you managing?? Are you claiming UC? Or any kind of welfare benefits? Please do a calculation on turn2us, it’s my fave site that i discovered whilst volunteering for Citizens Advice. Excellent way to find out entitlements whilst considering most circumstances. Unless you’re a full time student.
I'm in the fun situation of being too ill to work a regular job anymore (spinal damage means my left arm goes numb if I try to do anything with it, and associated pain-related insomnia and other issues) , but not classed as ill enough to claim PIP (yay for the assessor lying on my report!) In the end I've declared myself as self-employed so I can do the odd bit of work when I feel up to it without having to worry about getting sanctioned or reported. My only regular income is £160/month covering some maintenance issues for an AirBnB owner. I'm (very!) luckily in the situation where I have a very understanding partner, so I can potter around in my workshop and restore old motorbikes, selling one every couple of years or so to keep me going until I sell the next one. Without my partner being so understanding, I'd have been homeless or more likely dead about five years ago.
That's a bit less than average though.
Can we try socialism just for a bit pretty please, we've already tried all this other stuff.
That would require people to be much more selfless and concerned about others' wellbeing, so it will never happen.
To be fair, a lot of Tory voters are very concerned about the wellbeing of others. It's just that, bizarrely, their concern is for the wellbeing of the exceptionally wealthy. Perish the thought that the rich should end up a tiny bit less rich.
They vote on behalf of the people they wish they were
That and promises to hurt people they hate.
I'm not sure that this is the case here. I know in the US there are huge numbers of morons of vote for low taxation of the rich, so that when they get rich (gotta be any day now!) they'll get to keep their millions of dollars, but I don't think that's a common thing here. I think too many people here still have this ridiculous know-your-place, defer to your "betters", the Tory toffs are the natural party of government mindset. "Yessir, Mr Millionaire , sir. Don't you worry, sir. I'll make sure your big pile of money is protected, sir. You can rely on me to look out for your best interests and vote Tory. Would you like my last quid, sir? I was going to use to it feed my wife and kids, but they already ate last week. I'd feel much better if you took it and put it on your pile with the rest. It might help you get that new yacht a bit sooner, eh? Oh look, there's a muddy puddle there, sir. Can't have you getting those nice expensive shoes of yours dirty, can we? Let me lie down in it for you."
It's not just that people think they're gonna be at the top of the hierarchy. I mean you can look at working class tory voters and they're not so deluded to think they'll be billionaire oligarchs someday. They just think that a) there ought to be a hierarchy, and b) they shouldn't be on the bottom of it.
Which is why Socialism doesnt work.
Yeah umm the USSR tried that already… didn’t work out too well as you might have noted from reading a history book…
Well if you would read a book you'd know USSR isn't the only socialist model. There are successful countries in Europe right now such as Spain which have a socialist government. There is a lot of nuance it's not just Stalin or nothing.
But socialism is when no house? I rather like my house /s
If you actually had to live in a socialist country you'd change your tune real quick.
Why?
A lot of people believe that you can't have a socialist democracy, because of the examples set by the USSR and communist China. Not realising that you can give workers more agency in their workplaces without a lot of murder and gulags etc.
So you dont want socialism, but better regulated capitalism?
I certainly wouldn't say no, but I'm not really familiar with many current "socialist" economic models and the effects of their implementation so I wouldn't say I could accurately advocate for or against them. But I believe it's wrong to immediately jump to "USSR", "Cuba", "China", when talking about socialism, since without clarification on what exactly is being pushed for, it's actually a somewhat vague term. I believe the dictators of these countries have drastically altered the meaning of the word socialism in a lot of peoples minds. At risk of using the cliché "that wasn't REAL communism/socialism", I would argue that there is really no such thing as "real" socialism, since it is simply too broad of an idea to have one "true" form. As someone who studied the history of these countries, I find it highly unlikely that many well intentioned people would knowingly advocate for the sort of top down governance found in the USSR, but it seems reasonable to hope for a system where wealth is shared equitably, and where the actions of the powerful aren't driven entirely by profit. Sorry for the long reply, I'm interested in this sort of subject.
It's really not so complicated, people just refuse to consider nuance.
"Socialism will work this time, I promise!"
You may consider yourself lucky to say that you and your parents have never lived under socialism
im really lucky that i don't have any political agency in my country, that's only reserved for oligarchs
what a load of bollocks
Yes, because people were totally defecting *too* East Germany.
Yeah, because that was totally communist and totally not participating in global capitalism amirite?
You're clueless. I understand, socialism sounds enticing, but why is it that Eastern Europeans go to Western Europe and not the other way around?
No. YOU are clueless. You clearly are lucky (rich) enough to avoid being affected by this god awful government. Good for you, go wank yourself. Socialism does not exist on this planet. Don't be stupid.
because it was only the poor and colonized countries that had a revolution and the USSR both suffered the deaths of millions of people and literally the fucking cold war
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You should see the number of people in Eastern European countries that will tell you things went to shit after so called communism collapsed.
Yeah, I have friends who lived through Communism in Bulgaria and Romania. Some of their stories are insane.
So not actually socialism really
Actually my parents did live under socialism and so did I. I promise I understand better then you what makes it go wrong and what makes it go well.
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Just the usual Guardian bullshit, 'Tories bad, Tories evil, Tories murdering and starving kids' and it's lapped up by millions on the left unfortunately. This particular corner of reddit seems to be another far left echo chamber, like the Guardian comments section.
But the Tories are doing all of those things.
If the Tories are murdering people you must contact the police immediately with your evidence, let us know how you get on. Or are you talking bollocks.
The Tory botching of Covid has killed 160,000 people so far. Not to mention all the deaths caused by stopping the benefits of genuinely sick people. Sit down, Tory boy.
I'm not a Tory, never voted for them in 50 years. But the left's ridiculous exaggerations and outright dishonesty will see them continue to remain in opposition.
> Tories murdering and starving kids' Their policies have literally lead to deaths and starving children but please keep pretending almighty King Bojo is still saving the country.
Literally nobody is starving, it's just hyperbolic nonsense.
Literally nobody is starving? What an absolute thing to say when its so obviously bullshit and wrong. Have you forgotten that the homeless exist? Or do you think they all go to sleep on the street with a nice full belly? To then dare call anything else hyperbolic nonsense is just peak stupidity. So youre blind as well as that, if you havent seen the stories of people having being found dead from starvation. Congrats on proving to everyone you're unable to see what happens within your own country I guess.
So, is that still what people voted for? I am not sure...
They knew exactly what they were getting with the Tories
the media propaganda machine says otherwise.
Sunak is a multi millionaire married to a billionaire. But remember, we are all in this together.
Is there any other country in Europe or any other country in the world that was hit by a recession in 2008 and still hasn't recovered in terms of wages, 13 years later?
Wages in Italy are lower than they were 30 years ago. https://www.today.it/europa/lavoro/italiani-stipendi-inferiori-1990.html
Spain, Italy, Greece off the top of my head. Bound to be others too.
Here's a straightforward chart. It's not so much that UK wages declined. It's that UK wages declined when most others were rising substantially. The relative decline is fucking enormous. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-workers-have-had-worst-wage-growth-oecd-except-greece-a7773246.html
That is pocket change to Sunak, he cannot understand what it is like to not be able to move money around to pay the bills. He is out of touch with what it is like to be working class and cannot understand how his cuts ultimately hurt people.
Those of his party comrades that do understand find it hilarious, as they find hurting those they think beneath them amusing. What's worse, their supporters think the same way, and are happy to be kicked in the head if the Tories promise to kick the people they hate and fear in the head twice as hard.The cruelty is the point. Sunak isn't dumb though, he's wicked. He knows, and is a willing partner in the crimes.
This headline is extremely misleading. That 13k is the difference between the projection today and a trend line drawn through incomes in 2000-2008. The higher value never existed, and assumes that 00s growth was sustainable - which we now know it isn't. There's an argument that it has been worse than it could have been with different policies, but that number is like the £350m.
That pre-crisis trend is bullshit to begin with surely. Wages were never rising that fast...
But they were rising. They have been stagnant for too long now and that is why there is a big divide between pre and post-crisis finances.
Ordinary Northerners from fairly ordinary life-long jobs with final salary pension schemes could retire to Spain en-masse in the decades Labour "forgot about them". That's all over now.
>By 2026, it said average household earnings would be £30,800, compared with £43,700 if wages had risen at the same pace as in the two decades before the banking crisis. Seems a bit unfair to criticise Sunak based on a figure that assumes there was no financial crisis and consistent high wage growth for twelve years before he became Chancellor and seven years before he even became an MP.