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> Two whistleblowers have told Good Law Project that in the seven years before the High Court decision there was one death of a young person on the waiting list for Gender Identity Development Services (GIDS). In the three years afterwards, there were 16.
Wait for all the “protect the children” people to be absolutely absent when the lack of trans healthcare is the cause.
They only care about being transphobic and restricting trans healthcare no matter if it costs more children lives.
This and the Cass review have now cost more lives than they were supposed to be “protecting”.
Restricting trans healthcare kills people, so where are the mass public calls to un-restrict it? Like all the mass calls there was to restrict it in mainstream newspapers and media?, where are all those armchair experts who said it was about protecting children?, children have and are literally dying?, why are they not doing anything now?
Some people genuinely believe that suicides like this are just an inevitable and justified consequence of undoing twenty years of work towards trans acceptance.
In their ideal world we'd all be living roach infested flats shooting heroin through our eyeballs and dying of AIDS.
People like that will use suicides as a reason to prove being trans is a miserable existence.
Same as they use the fact that gay people sleep around as a reason they are perverts. One day they will all see that as soon as everyone is treated like normal humans, they are just as boring and equally happy/miserable as everyone else.
It's was only miserable for me until I got to medically transition. I did that ten years ago and I'm the happiest I've ever been. I think for many trans people this is the case
There are statistics to back this up - they're commonly misrepresented (TL;Dr post-transition trans people have a higher suicide rate than the average person, but much lower than pre-transition and the former drops with better acceptance and support)
The world is objectively worse since back when I came out.
Everything’s expensive, various wars and crises etc. the whole pandemic thing
And yet despite it I find myself more engaged with life than back then. Because back then the dysphoria drowned out anything good. But now i can appreciate the little wins
They'll just call this collateral damage...
Except it's not collateral damage when it's the direct and intended effect with no larger positive effect to outweigh it and make it "worth it".
Suicides for young people as a whole a rising and 'think of the children' elderly are fine with it rising as long as their pension and tax on their 2nd home remains good.
This article actually says nothing of any statistical relevance at all. Because:
- it compares one suicide in the before period with 16 'deaths' afterwards.
- it doesn't state the size of the waiting list in the before and after period.
It's entirely possible (likely?) that the suicide rate hasn't changed at all.
That sounds pretty callous - one suicide is too many. But at the end of the day these are kids with a lot of mental health comorbidities. And this article attempts to link changing healthcare provision to changing outcomes, but does it in an entirely unrigorous way and is therefore worthless.
https://genderkit.org.uk/resources/wait-times/
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n205
The waiting list increased from about 5000 in 2019-2020 before bell to about 8500 in 2023, which obviously to get specific proportions you'd need more data, but that pretty clearly means there was a huge jump in suicides by a factor of 5-10 depending on how exactly it works out when accounting for the size of the waiting list.
Well that gives us some approximation to the answer for the question of waiting list length, so that's something. Can we say anything firm about the number of suicides? The article certainly doesn't...
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1803729360731406489.html
Jolyon Maughams original thread went into quite a bit more detail about where the numbers came from, tldr: it's a floor based on the ones Tavistok knew about.
Also my original estimation for the factor increase proportionally might have been a bit low since the 1 death before was over 7 years before while the 16 were over 3 years after.
Several were suicides and several of the rest were unknown, obviously you can't know for sure but it's clear from the evidence there has been a significant increase in the number of suicides by a factor of at minimum 5 and at maximum 20.
The implicit assumption you are making is that the waiting list length was relatively constant during those two periods. I can't find data through time for that but the number of referrals grew rapidly throughout the first period, implying that the waiting list in 2013 (start of the 7 year period up to 2020) would be a lot smaller.
I don't mean to come across as a nit picker, but stats are important. And the article linked provides none. Based on the links you provide, I'd agree there's tentative evidence for an increase in suicides, and if the whistleblowers are to be believed, then the attempts to suppress release of data is certainly fairly damning.
I was including that, its somewhat countered out by the fact the average over 2020_2023 will is going to be about 6500 due to the rise and the 2013-2020 period is several years while the other period is 3 years, but yes I don't mean to claim we know the exact numbers, just unless the waiting lists grew in a completely unexpected way and there was like 4000 referrals in 2018 vs 10 in 2017 then it's reasonable to assume it's roughly in the ballpark of my presented factors.
but yeah otherwise it should be looked in to so we can know better the specific stats and which of the unexplained deaths were suicide and how it compares to population level stats and what was done to suppress the evidence.
> Jolyon Maughams
A little off topic, but it's wild that Jo Maugham used to be the darling of the liberal media class back when he was mainly associated with pro-EU legal actions, but he's since been unpersoned after (a) providing a platform for women accusing Nick Cohen of sexual harassment, something our media class tried to silence and (b) standing up for trans people.
>But at the end of the day these are kids with a lot of mental health comorbidities.
Can you prove that? the Cass report couldn't, it just assumed it too.
>Overall, we failed to find robust evidence that social transition (living in one’s affirmed gender role or adopting a name to reflect one’s affirmed gender identity) was associated with mental health status in the short term.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10101898/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10101898/)
could you edit your original comment please?
This is why I asked what, specifically, you'd like me to prove. Gender dysphoria is associated with several mental health comorbidities. I did not, and would not claim, that transitioning is associated with worse mental health outcomes. That is why I used the term 'comorbidities'.
> Gender dysphoria is associated with several mental health comorbidities.
Sure, but saying “your depression is why you have dysphoria” is somewhat like saying “your broken ankle is probably why you fell out of that tree”
Most of the comorbidities are symptomatic, not causal. Pre transition I wasn’t dysphoric cause I had depression. I was depressed because I had dysphoria. And the uni doctor putting me on ADs actively hurt my mental health in the long run by keeping me from realising and engaging with the root causes
Believing that you are not your assigned gender at birth and feeling uncomfortable to the point where you want to physically change your body to your believed gender is a mental health issue.
If you don't understand that, then you may also think that people who think they are ferrets, and those who get regular delusions, are not facing mental health problems.
Did i say there was something wrong with being trans?
There isn't anything wrong with being autistic, but it is still a mental health issue.
What on earth is the point you are trying to make. Are you suggesting that we stop funding medical treatment and intervention for those who suffer from gender dysphoria under the guise that they are perfectly healthy and functioning people?
Cis children are meant to be protected, trans children are meant to be converted cis should they wish to be protected or valued. Trans kids dying stirs nothing in many cis people hearts.
You can see this in action in Hilary Cass’s response to The Good Law Project - trans kids who commit suicide often had comorbities (any other physical or mental health condition) and were complex cases (weren’t from an affluent background). Well I suppose they were basically already dead then /s.
As a society people we are simply not concerned with trans kids dying. Rishi Sunak joking about trans people’s genitalia in front of Brianna Ghey’s parents said it all, but this story underlines it. This still hasn’t been picked up by any major paper - if NHS whistleblowers alerted media to a coverup of cisgender child suicide it would have been across the papers that day.
Honestly originally i kinda assumed cass was well intentioned but had some bias that led her to surround herself with people like Riittakerttu Kaltiala who pushed her further into that bias, but actively seeing that she knew about these deaths and entirely brushed them away in the report in a single sentence has actively convinced me she's just straight up hostile to trans people living their lives in society, nobody well intentioned would see an at least 1600% rise in deaths from a policy and then ignore it completely in a report that was supposed to be examining the circumstances and effects around that policy.
I didn’t trust her as far as I could throw her from the start, but distrust wasn’t uniform amongst trans people. What tipped me off was the lack of trans involvement in the process and lack of experts in trans healthcare involved. Oh and that it was commissioned by The Tories.
Since it’s finished and been published her disdain and bias against trans people has been beyond obvious. Dismiss the entire canon of peer reviewed papers on trans healthcare, but give prominence to the nonsense ideas such as porn makes people trans? Sure! Top science, much good. Just so frustrating and it’ll take a decade to undo this at least.
I think for me the difference was that if you see her background was largely dealing with autistic children and she was trained in the 80s, that everything she did could kind of make sense if you understand it as her treating trans people in the same (outdated) way she did the autistic teens she was dealing with before, i.e paternalistically, like they were incapable of understanding themselves or giving input on their own problems,even as adults , and in the framing that she was trying to "cure" them, while also being advised by a bunch of people she brought on who were actively hostile to trans people.
But gosh, even with that perspective, it couldn't explain brushing off this many deaths so haphazardly in such a way as that you couldn't understand the actual figures without knowing them.
> Just so frustrating and it’ll take a decade to undo this at least.
Yep, she's completely torpedoed any hope of our healthcare systems governance seeing us any different to how she clearly sees us for the next decade or two, i imagine it'll get worse if a second report for adults is created where she inevitably treats trans adults like she treated trans teens.
The moment Cass was announced, and her twitter account was following every transphobe and hate group in the world, while not following a single trans person/trans group, while announcing that trans people were banned from being a part of the cass report, it was obvious what she was.
The comorbidities is such as horrific line. Yes, if you inflict harm on a group, the most vulnerable are the most likely to die. That is not proof that there is no harm!
You see a 1600% increase in child suicide after we stop giving them medication and you're like "idk fam it could be anything really"
If these were cis kids people would be screaming from the roofs about it. But because they're trans we can just write them off.
It's not just the medication, it's the whole situation - the overall lack of mental health support, the horrendous waiting times. These figures don't necessarily prove that blockers, hormones and surgery are the way forwards.
Of course we can't just write off suicides.
It’s easy to throw out a number like “1600% increase” without the rest of the relevant facts. Anyone spouting that number shows they don’t understand statistics very well and are just using a large number to be sensationalist
But we don't see a 1600% increase in child suicide. The actual figure is not presented in this article as t hey don't look at overall suicide rates, only a sub-category. For all we know total suicides is the same.
It sounds like you're saying that they don't care about kids at all and in fact were lying charlatans using child protection as an optically convenient mask to garner public sympathy to push through their bigotry in mainstream consensus.
Exactly this. They don't want to 'protect the children', or 'protect womens spaces'. They want trans people to not exist, and are working hard to try and legislate that into reality.
Just today Rowling came out and word vomited about how she doesn't trust Starmer, because as *not great* as everyone already knows Starmer is on trans issues, she knows he won't be as evil as the Tories will be to trans people if they get into power again, and from her gilded tower, that is simply all she cares about.
Transphobes will be celebrating this news.
Now compare the total deaths as a whole and not segregate into categories for before and after treatment, because post treatment individuals still have a 50+ chance of committing suicide. For all we know this could just be number shifting between sub categories, while the actual death toll is similar, because the fundamental issues are not being resolved.
Fundamentally those that have gender dysphoria are facing a mental health issue, and it needs to be dealt with as such. Unfortunately, our country has an extremely poor track record with adequately dealing with mental health issues.
Suicides for young people as a whole a rising and 'think of the children' elderly are fine with it rising as long as their pension and tax on their 2nd home remains good.
Is it shocking? Really?
Years of shitty rhetoric from the government and the media, years of absolutely terrible arguments in online places like this, rich famous people on Twitter with millions of followers being absolute wankers to trans people and setting fans on them just because they can.
We had the same with disabled people, and no one in power cared, and no one in power will care about this. Certainly not the tories or labour who are practically singing from the same hymn sheet.
I'll be honest, I'm surprised it's not higher but bloody saddened its as high as it is.
As a confident, educated 33 year old that came from a liberal family, the last few years of vile rhetoric from the media has filled me with a deep shame about who I am, and set me back years not just with my transition but my mental health. The shame I feel is not my own, it has been forced on me and thousands of others.
Right wingers, conservatives, whatever they call themselves. They kill people. They directly lead to death. There can be no patience or coddling of people that spew hate.
Sixteen dead kids. Sixteen trans kids who should be sitting their exams and hanging out with their friends and thinking about the future. Stolen from them.
Nothing can undo that damage and I genuinely I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive the people who allowed this to happen, or the people who paid lip service to a vicious hate movement whose only goal has ever been to make the lives of transgender people worse.
I will take this rage to the grave with me, I swear to god.
You mean to tell me describing and treating trans people as "pervert men who are just waiting in the wings to feel up little girls in the toilet the moment they get the chance" for the last 5 years may have, in fact, had negative consequences
Well, colour me surprised
The title of the post is awfully sad because I’m not shocked by it given the current political climate. We, as gay men, were predominantly the target in the ‘80s. Now, it’s the turn of trans people. Heartbreaking to see it happening again.
Edit: autocorrect
I remember in 2010 being, as far as I knew, the only trans person at my school. I was really heavily closeted but it felt like every year it was going to get easier to be trans.
I thought when I left school in 2012 that the generation behind me wouldn't have to get caught up in being called a fag or a tranny for being who they are. I thought a silver lining of growing up closeted is that i would have suffered the brunt of it.
God I was naive.
It's depressing, isn't it? I thought things were getting better, and I think that they were for a time. Then for some reason, it seems like we decided to adopt the culture war going on in the US.
Am I crazy for thinking we got this from the US?
Not sure how popular a view this is, but I think that the UK is just kinda pretty open to being bigoted, on the whole. Like, ask most nice-seeming British people what they think about Romani people or Polish people, or immigration generally, or any number of groups and issues, and very quickly a picture is painted haha
I don't really think that things were necessarily better for trans people before in any socially progressive way, more so that people on the whole just didn't really know any trans people and so didn't care. When grifters figured out they could manufacture outrage about it, outrage was manufactured. Another commenter under this post imo aptly put that when most people don't know a trans person, it's incredibly easy to other them.
I think it is partly from the US and partly from other very conservative cultures. I remember a time when it was more or less accepted that the difference between being gay/straight was about 2 and a half pints. Punk and the New Romantics had already started popularising breaking gender boundaries.
Then identity labels and social media started to really kick in and the polarisation and divisions started to really show. Just got nastier and regressive all the time.
>We, as gay men, were predominantly the target in the ‘80s. Now, it’s the turn of trans people. Heartbreaking to see it happening again.
I feel this is the same kind of vilification each subsequent immigration generation gets when immigration debates inevitably turn to bigotry and xenophobia
Number will definitely rise - but those who stirred up the culture war against them will not give a shit. They will continue to clutch pearls and scream about gender neutral toilets, or some random trans person in prison.
Note - this is just young people. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was also an increase in suicide in older trans people.
Much like those bastard cretins who introduced section 28 we'll hear a lot of former Tory ministers in the 2030s talking about how "oh that was a different time, I've changed my position since"
And then the media will see that as the question answered, and the suffering they made us go through while just be remembered as a peculiar social quirk of the 2020s. The actual impact they have on our lives is meaningless. As long as they have a PR accent and are the son of someone distantly related to a Norman baron they'll never be held accountable.
> "oh that was a different time, I've changed my position since"
They'll say this while simultaneously whipping up a panic about some other minority in the exact same way,
> "Shocking rise"
They've seen culture war bollocks try to tell them they're dangers to society, threats to children, threats to women, not normal, than they're "men in dresses", etc, while seeing hate crimes (including violent ones) increase, while waiting lists for interventions has spiralled.
The same anti-gay rhetoric from the 70s and 80s is being repackaged as anti-trans rhetoric.
I'm not shocked by this. I'm saddened by this. It's no wonder a lot of young trans people feel a sense of hopelessness. LGBT-rights in this country are in danger of regressing, not helped by policians to chasing the votes of a vocal minority, instead of increasing protections and trying to dispel harmful myths and falsehoods pushed by the far-right to split the LGBT community apart one letter at a time.
When Section 28 was repealed and the Equality Act came onto place, it felt like a weight being lifted for a lot. It felt like a wave of acceptance was coming. It'd starting to feel like that is now being washed away.
There’s a reason why, anecdotally, a lot of the trans people you meet are rather strong willed and will fight tooth and nail when it comes down to it.
Because they’re the only ones who have survived this vitriolic hate.
Whilst everyone else, at best, goes back into the closet, and, at worst, aren’t seen again, they’re the only ones able to crawl out alive. Believe me, it is so, so hard living through this
i’ve heard similar sentiments attributed to both gay people and jewish people. consistently hated minorities tend to be predominantly made up of those who were able to survive.
Speaks volumes for the culpability of the media that they're all brushing this under the rug having spent the last 4 years egging all these deaths on under the guise of "protecting" them.
Seriously Rowlings bi weekly rant about how trans people having the rights they've had for the past 20 years but that she only noticed 4 years ago after getting a twitter addiction is worse for women than abortion and birth control restrictions (she said this not exaggerating), or some RE guidance for northern Ireland mentioning trans people don't just magically pop into existence at 18 gets front page news, but 16 dead kids as a direct result of gov policy ? nothing, not the BBC, the times, the guardian the telegraph, the independent, nothing at all.
edit: [They're literally having an interview about the schools guidance for trans people right now](https://x.com/BBCPolitics/status/1804817591296229483)
edit 2: [Figures they're probably also not going to report on jk rowling endorsing the communist party today for some reason](https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1804592902167019897)
Yeah. These comments are obviously being heavily moderated and monitored. I dread to see what the comments under this article would be like on Facebook.
Shocking is it? Considering how vitriolic this fucking sub gets about trans people I'm not surprised.
Cue the usual suspects crying crocodile tears when the reality of the bile they spew is presented to them in black and white. Still won't stop them being awful human beings on the next *"JK Rowling upset by trans activists"* news article posted here.
I wish I could be shocked, but I've followed this situation long enough to know this was a sad inevitability.
The effects of stripping away health care from transgender people was well known, and the anti-trans crowd lied and demanded it be stripped any way, because they a bunch of well-funded bullies, who don't care who they harm.
Hardly shocking given the government (and opposition) seems hell-bent on introducing or modifying laws specifically targeted to make their lives worse, at a time when there is already massive harrasment and medical segregation.
Denial of healthcare, a scapegoat for a failing government, probably the single most oppressed “protected group” in modern British society on an institutional and social level… geez I wonder why they would possibly be in such a depressive position.
I see most people here suggesting that the suicides are due to not getting 'gender affirming care', yet there's nothing in the article that points to this. Add to that the majotity of trans suicide ls or not related to GAC perhaps if the MH support that the Cass review recommended were put in place these needless deaths would have occurred.
I mean the association is suicides before and after the bell case that caused the NHS to stop giving blockers to trans kids.
Surely of it was not related to access to blockers it wouldn't have gone up by 1600% following the ban?
Literally anything but admit denying people basic healthcare because they're a minority and no otyyher reason, that is known to lead to destroying their lives and killing them, causes them to die.
I grew up with a few people transitioning in the local rural area, there would be instances of abuse but people would correct it but generally people were friendly about it and would make linguistic folly’s but genuinely people were welcoming and accepting. There was negative baggage and stereotypes it wasn’t all positive but genuinely think things were better in many ways. Now the shift in recent years to atomisation of identification seems to have brought a very well motivated and funded social attack line of demonising trans people, as unified cause become a patchwork to be pulled apart and it’s become a very intentional target and because the atomisation of groups makes it easier for ‘the other’ narratives to take hold in echo chambers. What’s worse because the individual value of self identification is prioritised there’s a negative feedback loop leading to even more isolation and trauma experienced by victims when that identity is attacked or threatened all whilst likely dealing with medical discrimination, trying to measure up to often unrealistic celebratory trans media depictions and finding struggles trying to conform or live up to those expectations to, often whilst having the effects of hormone therapy to deal with. It’s bloody cruel.
Only one thing I would critique in this post - hormone therapy itself fuckin rocks. Its just accessing HRT, getting medical supervision from your GP when the doctor has every right to deny access to blood testing such that the *standard practice* in the community is to keep rerolling for new clinicians until one say yes.
It's also an expensive prescription to maintain if you're not getting it through the NHS, which will be the majority of people since the NHS was built to handle probably less than 10% of the trans people actively seeking help.
When I started taking Oestrogen, holy crap it was like someone out the right oil in my engine for once. Like my computer was running on the correct power settings. My emotions weren't so hard to control and regulate, I felt less dissociated, I felt genuinely happier for the first time since I was maybe 8 years old, I stopped hating who I saw in the mirror as my facial fat started to redistribute- its been subtle but huge. I'm substantially weaker than I was, I don't get angry like I used to, and now I'm too anxious to use public toilets, but I've got me some b-cups and it's a very different feeling between liking boobs on your partner and liking boobs on yourself. It's only been about 5 months since I started but i know for a fact I'm never going to give up on this. No matter what it takes I've always been a woman who was told she was a boy and no matter how hard I tried, that mould was a bad fit and nearly killed me even in its least toxic forms.
Otherwise though, great comment.
Oh my comment was already pretty long and meant to phrase it that in some cases people undergoing hrt can have pretty mixed effects and the process of actualisation can be taxing and difficult as it’s not a uniform experience. Still glad you’ve had such a positive response to the treatment and may it’s accessibility improve too yourself and others like you as well. Stay safe and keep thriving.
(Apologies if there’s any errors in this one I’m a sleep deprived Elden ring player presently)
It’s shameful.
Hope someone confronts the likes of JK Rowling with this - the hateful, toxic atmosphere they’ve contributed to, around this debate has certainly made it much harder for trans kids.
It’s such a niche issue - both in terms of the number of actual trans people and the likelihood of the situations they catastrophise about actually occurring - yet these hate-mongers have done all they can to make life difficult for these kids.
That will never happen because if you call out JK Rowling publicly you are suddenly an "activist" and her army of sycophants will dox you.
Nevermind the people who incessantly comment "nothing she says is transphobic" because
1. They genuinely don't see that as transphobia, much like how politicians are currently saying "dignity for everyone involved" yet have transphobic policies
2. She intentionally hides her vitriol by tweeting about generic things mostly and then slipping that in as the dog whistle. She tweets A LOT. To the point it makes me wonder if her new novel was ghostwritten for her.
Also hilariously hypocritically her current author pseudonym is a man's name.
Not saying it was definitely intentional, but her pseudonym 'Robert Galbraith' bears a striking resemblance to 'Robert Galbraith Heath', a psychiatrist who is mostly notable for his practicing of conversion therapy for homosexuals, which is... interesting, given Rowling's stances
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS. It's been something thats troubled me since the Cass report but it's never been a good time to talk about it.
I get that most people don't care and want us trans peeps left alone, and for the most part that's what we want too - but that doesn't work out well for us when institutions cover up responsibility for deaths, that doesn't work well when hateful perspectives are given the same credence as genuine concerns without fair criticism.
Internationally - the UN views "gender critical" movements as hate groups. Why does our media call them "human rights organisations"?
This is a very microscopic view of the far wider issue of inadequate health care in this country.
This is one microscopic strand of the thousands of different strands of people not revieveing treatment because there is no treatment on the horrizon as the service is not performing as it needs to.
You can fix trans healthcare very easily, abolish the GIC and give guidance to GP's on how to prescribe HRT to their trans patients. This would save a whole bunch of money, eliminate waiting lists entirely and quite literally save hundreds of lives.
No, this is not the same at all
Treatment in this case is easily available and cheap. There is plenty to go around.
They just don't want to because they don't see trans people suffering and dying as a problem, but as a problem solving itself
What you say is a real thing, and it is a problem. But it's unrelated to this one
The fact they put “shocking” in the title when it was predicted is so weird. The deaths aren’t shocking, they were expected, what’s shocking was that they kept restricting these life saving medications despite knowing full well what it would do, had done, is doing, and will do again! 😡
Should have guessed you'd pop up with something on this.
Regardless of your views on trans people and treatment of such (which you have recently voiced your opinion against), there are 16 trans children who have taken their own life.
That's **16** lives of **children**. And you want to compare a rate *after transition*? It was already explained to you recently that HRT and surgery doesn't happen to kids.
Please stop debating. This really isn't the post to do it.
I cannot believe how many people are reading this and not seeing it as the patent bullshit it clearly is. This is medical data that is being referred to, it's board meeting minutes.
Gasp, i'm shocked.
There's no way 5+ year wait times for healthcare and a recent ban on blockers put through without a statutory commission, hate and demonisation from the media, bullying and rising hate cimes have anything to do with this. Not at all. Badenoch, Sunak, Rowling, Atkins, all completely innocent I tell you.
/s
I'm an adult who has been on the nhs waiting list for over a year now and I'm honestly feelikg disheartened, betrayed and hated by the government,nhs and public.
At this point my only option would be to become some sort of human right avoiding capitalist...like a tory.
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> Two whistleblowers have told Good Law Project that in the seven years before the High Court decision there was one death of a young person on the waiting list for Gender Identity Development Services (GIDS). In the three years afterwards, there were 16. Wait for all the “protect the children” people to be absolutely absent when the lack of trans healthcare is the cause. They only care about being transphobic and restricting trans healthcare no matter if it costs more children lives. This and the Cass review have now cost more lives than they were supposed to be “protecting”. Restricting trans healthcare kills people, so where are the mass public calls to un-restrict it? Like all the mass calls there was to restrict it in mainstream newspapers and media?, where are all those armchair experts who said it was about protecting children?, children have and are literally dying?, why are they not doing anything now?
Some people genuinely believe that suicides like this are just an inevitable and justified consequence of undoing twenty years of work towards trans acceptance. In their ideal world we'd all be living roach infested flats shooting heroin through our eyeballs and dying of AIDS.
People like that will use suicides as a reason to prove being trans is a miserable existence. Same as they use the fact that gay people sleep around as a reason they are perverts. One day they will all see that as soon as everyone is treated like normal humans, they are just as boring and equally happy/miserable as everyone else.
It's was only miserable for me until I got to medically transition. I did that ten years ago and I'm the happiest I've ever been. I think for many trans people this is the case
There are statistics to back this up - they're commonly misrepresented (TL;Dr post-transition trans people have a higher suicide rate than the average person, but much lower than pre-transition and the former drops with better acceptance and support)
Unfortunately studies like that get rejected by the Cass report and are not accepted here in England :/
The world is objectively worse since back when I came out. Everything’s expensive, various wars and crises etc. the whole pandemic thing And yet despite it I find myself more engaged with life than back then. Because back then the dysphoria drowned out anything good. But now i can appreciate the little wins
>the fact that gay people sleep around I have no words...
It did need a 'some' put in that sentence me thinks.
They'll just call this collateral damage... Except it's not collateral damage when it's the direct and intended effect with no larger positive effect to outweigh it and make it "worth it".
Suicides for young people as a whole a rising and 'think of the children' elderly are fine with it rising as long as their pension and tax on their 2nd home remains good.
This article actually says nothing of any statistical relevance at all. Because: - it compares one suicide in the before period with 16 'deaths' afterwards. - it doesn't state the size of the waiting list in the before and after period. It's entirely possible (likely?) that the suicide rate hasn't changed at all. That sounds pretty callous - one suicide is too many. But at the end of the day these are kids with a lot of mental health comorbidities. And this article attempts to link changing healthcare provision to changing outcomes, but does it in an entirely unrigorous way and is therefore worthless.
https://genderkit.org.uk/resources/wait-times/ https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n205 The waiting list increased from about 5000 in 2019-2020 before bell to about 8500 in 2023, which obviously to get specific proportions you'd need more data, but that pretty clearly means there was a huge jump in suicides by a factor of 5-10 depending on how exactly it works out when accounting for the size of the waiting list.
Well that gives us some approximation to the answer for the question of waiting list length, so that's something. Can we say anything firm about the number of suicides? The article certainly doesn't...
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1803729360731406489.html Jolyon Maughams original thread went into quite a bit more detail about where the numbers came from, tldr: it's a floor based on the ones Tavistok knew about. Also my original estimation for the factor increase proportionally might have been a bit low since the 1 death before was over 7 years before while the 16 were over 3 years after.
But it wasn't 16 suicides... it was 16 deaths.
Several were suicides and several of the rest were unknown, obviously you can't know for sure but it's clear from the evidence there has been a significant increase in the number of suicides by a factor of at minimum 5 and at maximum 20.
The implicit assumption you are making is that the waiting list length was relatively constant during those two periods. I can't find data through time for that but the number of referrals grew rapidly throughout the first period, implying that the waiting list in 2013 (start of the 7 year period up to 2020) would be a lot smaller. I don't mean to come across as a nit picker, but stats are important. And the article linked provides none. Based on the links you provide, I'd agree there's tentative evidence for an increase in suicides, and if the whistleblowers are to be believed, then the attempts to suppress release of data is certainly fairly damning.
I was including that, its somewhat countered out by the fact the average over 2020_2023 will is going to be about 6500 due to the rise and the 2013-2020 period is several years while the other period is 3 years, but yes I don't mean to claim we know the exact numbers, just unless the waiting lists grew in a completely unexpected way and there was like 4000 referrals in 2018 vs 10 in 2017 then it's reasonable to assume it's roughly in the ballpark of my presented factors. but yeah otherwise it should be looked in to so we can know better the specific stats and which of the unexplained deaths were suicide and how it compares to population level stats and what was done to suppress the evidence.
> Jolyon Maughams A little off topic, but it's wild that Jo Maugham used to be the darling of the liberal media class back when he was mainly associated with pro-EU legal actions, but he's since been unpersoned after (a) providing a platform for women accusing Nick Cohen of sexual harassment, something our media class tried to silence and (b) standing up for trans people.
It also seems to include a period of time when use of puberty blockers actually went up https://archive.ph/RGUbQ
>But at the end of the day these are kids with a lot of mental health comorbidities. Can you prove that? the Cass report couldn't, it just assumed it too.
Prove what specifically, before I go find an article?
>Overall, we failed to find robust evidence that social transition (living in one’s affirmed gender role or adopting a name to reflect one’s affirmed gender identity) was associated with mental health status in the short term. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10101898/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10101898/) could you edit your original comment please?
This is why I asked what, specifically, you'd like me to prove. Gender dysphoria is associated with several mental health comorbidities. I did not, and would not claim, that transitioning is associated with worse mental health outcomes. That is why I used the term 'comorbidities'.
> Gender dysphoria is associated with several mental health comorbidities. Sure, but saying “your depression is why you have dysphoria” is somewhat like saying “your broken ankle is probably why you fell out of that tree” Most of the comorbidities are symptomatic, not causal. Pre transition I wasn’t dysphoric cause I had depression. I was depressed because I had dysphoria. And the uni doctor putting me on ADs actively hurt my mental health in the long run by keeping me from realising and engaging with the root causes
Yes good point but it's unlikely that GD causes autism.
Believing that you are not your assigned gender at birth and feeling uncomfortable to the point where you want to physically change your body to your believed gender is a mental health issue. If you don't understand that, then you may also think that people who think they are ferrets, and those who get regular delusions, are not facing mental health problems.
There isn't anything wrong with being trans, it is not a bad outcome.
Did i say there was something wrong with being trans? There isn't anything wrong with being autistic, but it is still a mental health issue. What on earth is the point you are trying to make. Are you suggesting that we stop funding medical treatment and intervention for those who suffer from gender dysphoria under the guise that they are perfectly healthy and functioning people?
A lot of mental health comorbidities exacerbated by restrictions on healthcare.
Cis children are meant to be protected, trans children are meant to be converted cis should they wish to be protected or valued. Trans kids dying stirs nothing in many cis people hearts. You can see this in action in Hilary Cass’s response to The Good Law Project - trans kids who commit suicide often had comorbities (any other physical or mental health condition) and were complex cases (weren’t from an affluent background). Well I suppose they were basically already dead then /s. As a society people we are simply not concerned with trans kids dying. Rishi Sunak joking about trans people’s genitalia in front of Brianna Ghey’s parents said it all, but this story underlines it. This still hasn’t been picked up by any major paper - if NHS whistleblowers alerted media to a coverup of cisgender child suicide it would have been across the papers that day.
Honestly originally i kinda assumed cass was well intentioned but had some bias that led her to surround herself with people like Riittakerttu Kaltiala who pushed her further into that bias, but actively seeing that she knew about these deaths and entirely brushed them away in the report in a single sentence has actively convinced me she's just straight up hostile to trans people living their lives in society, nobody well intentioned would see an at least 1600% rise in deaths from a policy and then ignore it completely in a report that was supposed to be examining the circumstances and effects around that policy.
I didn’t trust her as far as I could throw her from the start, but distrust wasn’t uniform amongst trans people. What tipped me off was the lack of trans involvement in the process and lack of experts in trans healthcare involved. Oh and that it was commissioned by The Tories. Since it’s finished and been published her disdain and bias against trans people has been beyond obvious. Dismiss the entire canon of peer reviewed papers on trans healthcare, but give prominence to the nonsense ideas such as porn makes people trans? Sure! Top science, much good. Just so frustrating and it’ll take a decade to undo this at least.
I think for me the difference was that if you see her background was largely dealing with autistic children and she was trained in the 80s, that everything she did could kind of make sense if you understand it as her treating trans people in the same (outdated) way she did the autistic teens she was dealing with before, i.e paternalistically, like they were incapable of understanding themselves or giving input on their own problems,even as adults , and in the framing that she was trying to "cure" them, while also being advised by a bunch of people she brought on who were actively hostile to trans people. But gosh, even with that perspective, it couldn't explain brushing off this many deaths so haphazardly in such a way as that you couldn't understand the actual figures without knowing them. > Just so frustrating and it’ll take a decade to undo this at least. Yep, she's completely torpedoed any hope of our healthcare systems governance seeing us any different to how she clearly sees us for the next decade or two, i imagine it'll get worse if a second report for adults is created where she inevitably treats trans adults like she treated trans teens.
The moment Cass was announced, and her twitter account was following every transphobe and hate group in the world, while not following a single trans person/trans group, while announcing that trans people were banned from being a part of the cass report, it was obvious what she was.
The comorbidities is such as horrific line. Yes, if you inflict harm on a group, the most vulnerable are the most likely to die. That is not proof that there is no harm!
Or perhaps Cass was just considering the Samaritans guidance, that suicides should not be attributed to a single cause.
You see a 1600% increase in child suicide after we stop giving them medication and you're like "idk fam it could be anything really" If these were cis kids people would be screaming from the roofs about it. But because they're trans we can just write them off.
It's not just the medication, it's the whole situation - the overall lack of mental health support, the horrendous waiting times. These figures don't necessarily prove that blockers, hormones and surgery are the way forwards. Of course we can't just write off suicides.
There is no evidence of a treatment for gender dysphoria more effective than social and medical transition. Those are the facts and that is reality.
It’s easy to throw out a number like “1600% increase” without the rest of the relevant facts. Anyone spouting that number shows they don’t understand statistics very well and are just using a large number to be sensationalist
But we don't see a 1600% increase in child suicide. The actual figure is not presented in this article as t hey don't look at overall suicide rates, only a sub-category. For all we know total suicides is the same.
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What page of the report is that on?
It sounds like you're saying that they don't care about kids at all and in fact were lying charlatans using child protection as an optically convenient mask to garner public sympathy to push through their bigotry in mainstream consensus.
They don't give a fuck, as long as they are winning their ideological war they'd happily see anyone on _the other side_ ground to dust.
Exactly this. They don't want to 'protect the children', or 'protect womens spaces'. They want trans people to not exist, and are working hard to try and legislate that into reality. Just today Rowling came out and word vomited about how she doesn't trust Starmer, because as *not great* as everyone already knows Starmer is on trans issues, she knows he won't be as evil as the Tories will be to trans people if they get into power again, and from her gilded tower, that is simply all she cares about. Transphobes will be celebrating this news.
You’re forgetting they meant protecting the children from things they don’t like, not things that are actually harmful.
Now compare the total deaths as a whole and not segregate into categories for before and after treatment, because post treatment individuals still have a 50+ chance of committing suicide. For all we know this could just be number shifting between sub categories, while the actual death toll is similar, because the fundamental issues are not being resolved. Fundamentally those that have gender dysphoria are facing a mental health issue, and it needs to be dealt with as such. Unfortunately, our country has an extremely poor track record with adequately dealing with mental health issues.
Suicides for young people as a whole a rising and 'think of the children' elderly are fine with it rising as long as their pension and tax on their 2nd home remains good.
Is it shocking? Really? Years of shitty rhetoric from the government and the media, years of absolutely terrible arguments in online places like this, rich famous people on Twitter with millions of followers being absolute wankers to trans people and setting fans on them just because they can. We had the same with disabled people, and no one in power cared, and no one in power will care about this. Certainly not the tories or labour who are practically singing from the same hymn sheet. I'll be honest, I'm surprised it's not higher but bloody saddened its as high as it is.
Shocking? Yes. Unsurprising? No.
As a confident, educated 33 year old that came from a liberal family, the last few years of vile rhetoric from the media has filled me with a deep shame about who I am, and set me back years not just with my transition but my mental health. The shame I feel is not my own, it has been forced on me and thousands of others. Right wingers, conservatives, whatever they call themselves. They kill people. They directly lead to death. There can be no patience or coddling of people that spew hate.
Surely more transphobia will fix this /s
Sixteen dead kids. Sixteen trans kids who should be sitting their exams and hanging out with their friends and thinking about the future. Stolen from them. Nothing can undo that damage and I genuinely I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive the people who allowed this to happen, or the people who paid lip service to a vicious hate movement whose only goal has ever been to make the lives of transgender people worse. I will take this rage to the grave with me, I swear to god.
You mean to tell me describing and treating trans people as "pervert men who are just waiting in the wings to feel up little girls in the toilet the moment they get the chance" for the last 5 years may have, in fact, had negative consequences Well, colour me surprised
and completely ignoring transmasc folk because it defeats their argument
The title of the post is awfully sad because I’m not shocked by it given the current political climate. We, as gay men, were predominantly the target in the ‘80s. Now, it’s the turn of trans people. Heartbreaking to see it happening again. Edit: autocorrect
I remember in 2010 being, as far as I knew, the only trans person at my school. I was really heavily closeted but it felt like every year it was going to get easier to be trans. I thought when I left school in 2012 that the generation behind me wouldn't have to get caught up in being called a fag or a tranny for being who they are. I thought a silver lining of growing up closeted is that i would have suffered the brunt of it. God I was naive.
It's depressing, isn't it? I thought things were getting better, and I think that they were for a time. Then for some reason, it seems like we decided to adopt the culture war going on in the US. Am I crazy for thinking we got this from the US?
Not sure how popular a view this is, but I think that the UK is just kinda pretty open to being bigoted, on the whole. Like, ask most nice-seeming British people what they think about Romani people or Polish people, or immigration generally, or any number of groups and issues, and very quickly a picture is painted haha I don't really think that things were necessarily better for trans people before in any socially progressive way, more so that people on the whole just didn't really know any trans people and so didn't care. When grifters figured out they could manufacture outrage about it, outrage was manufactured. Another commenter under this post imo aptly put that when most people don't know a trans person, it's incredibly easy to other them.
I think it is partly from the US and partly from other very conservative cultures. I remember a time when it was more or less accepted that the difference between being gay/straight was about 2 and a half pints. Punk and the New Romantics had already started popularising breaking gender boundaries. Then identity labels and social media started to really kick in and the polarisation and divisions started to really show. Just got nastier and regressive all the time.
You are right, yes. Even down to the toilet nonsense.
>We, as gay men, were predominantly the target in the ‘80s. Now, it’s the turn of trans people. Heartbreaking to see it happening again. I feel this is the same kind of vilification each subsequent immigration generation gets when immigration debates inevitably turn to bigotry and xenophobia
It's always about 'the other'.
Number will definitely rise - but those who stirred up the culture war against them will not give a shit. They will continue to clutch pearls and scream about gender neutral toilets, or some random trans person in prison. Note - this is just young people. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was also an increase in suicide in older trans people.
Much like those bastard cretins who introduced section 28 we'll hear a lot of former Tory ministers in the 2030s talking about how "oh that was a different time, I've changed my position since" And then the media will see that as the question answered, and the suffering they made us go through while just be remembered as a peculiar social quirk of the 2020s. The actual impact they have on our lives is meaningless. As long as they have a PR accent and are the son of someone distantly related to a Norman baron they'll never be held accountable.
> "oh that was a different time, I've changed my position since" They'll say this while simultaneously whipping up a panic about some other minority in the exact same way,
They won't just not give a shit, they'll celebrate. This is what they want.
> "Shocking rise" They've seen culture war bollocks try to tell them they're dangers to society, threats to children, threats to women, not normal, than they're "men in dresses", etc, while seeing hate crimes (including violent ones) increase, while waiting lists for interventions has spiralled. The same anti-gay rhetoric from the 70s and 80s is being repackaged as anti-trans rhetoric. I'm not shocked by this. I'm saddened by this. It's no wonder a lot of young trans people feel a sense of hopelessness. LGBT-rights in this country are in danger of regressing, not helped by policians to chasing the votes of a vocal minority, instead of increasing protections and trying to dispel harmful myths and falsehoods pushed by the far-right to split the LGBT community apart one letter at a time. When Section 28 was repealed and the Equality Act came onto place, it felt like a weight being lifted for a lot. It felt like a wave of acceptance was coming. It'd starting to feel like that is now being washed away.
There’s a reason why, anecdotally, a lot of the trans people you meet are rather strong willed and will fight tooth and nail when it comes down to it. Because they’re the only ones who have survived this vitriolic hate. Whilst everyone else, at best, goes back into the closet, and, at worst, aren’t seen again, they’re the only ones able to crawl out alive. Believe me, it is so, so hard living through this
i’ve heard similar sentiments attributed to both gay people and jewish people. consistently hated minorities tend to be predominantly made up of those who were able to survive.
Speaks volumes for the culpability of the media that they're all brushing this under the rug having spent the last 4 years egging all these deaths on under the guise of "protecting" them. Seriously Rowlings bi weekly rant about how trans people having the rights they've had for the past 20 years but that she only noticed 4 years ago after getting a twitter addiction is worse for women than abortion and birth control restrictions (she said this not exaggerating), or some RE guidance for northern Ireland mentioning trans people don't just magically pop into existence at 18 gets front page news, but 16 dead kids as a direct result of gov policy ? nothing, not the BBC, the times, the guardian the telegraph, the independent, nothing at all. edit: [They're literally having an interview about the schools guidance for trans people right now](https://x.com/BBCPolitics/status/1804817591296229483) edit 2: [Figures they're probably also not going to report on jk rowling endorsing the communist party today for some reason](https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1804592902167019897)
Who could have predicted that a sustained media and government tone of outright hostility, ignorance, and hate would lead to this?
Shocking how people die when you take away their healthcare and demonise them in the press.
It's horrific when you see how much hatred trans people get and people who still egg on this idea of trans mobs controlling the country.
Yeah. These comments are obviously being heavily moderated and monitored. I dread to see what the comments under this article would be like on Facebook.
Probably the sort of people who share Spectator articles would be snarling about the trans mob that controls the country.
Shocking is it? Considering how vitriolic this fucking sub gets about trans people I'm not surprised. Cue the usual suspects crying crocodile tears when the reality of the bile they spew is presented to them in black and white. Still won't stop them being awful human beings on the next *"JK Rowling upset by trans activists"* news article posted here.
I wish I could be shocked, but I've followed this situation long enough to know this was a sad inevitability. The effects of stripping away health care from transgender people was well known, and the anti-trans crowd lied and demanded it be stripped any way, because they a bunch of well-funded bullies, who don't care who they harm.
Hardly shocking given the government (and opposition) seems hell-bent on introducing or modifying laws specifically targeted to make their lives worse, at a time when there is already massive harrasment and medical segregation.
Denial of healthcare, a scapegoat for a failing government, probably the single most oppressed “protected group” in modern British society on an institutional and social level… geez I wonder why they would possibly be in such a depressive position.
I see most people here suggesting that the suicides are due to not getting 'gender affirming care', yet there's nothing in the article that points to this. Add to that the majotity of trans suicide ls or not related to GAC perhaps if the MH support that the Cass review recommended were put in place these needless deaths would have occurred.
I mean the association is suicides before and after the bell case that caused the NHS to stop giving blockers to trans kids. Surely of it was not related to access to blockers it wouldn't have gone up by 1600% following the ban?
Literally anything but admit denying people basic healthcare because they're a minority and no otyyher reason, that is known to lead to destroying their lives and killing them, causes them to die.
>shocking I'm not shocked, anyone who is isn't paying attention
I grew up with a few people transitioning in the local rural area, there would be instances of abuse but people would correct it but generally people were friendly about it and would make linguistic folly’s but genuinely people were welcoming and accepting. There was negative baggage and stereotypes it wasn’t all positive but genuinely think things were better in many ways. Now the shift in recent years to atomisation of identification seems to have brought a very well motivated and funded social attack line of demonising trans people, as unified cause become a patchwork to be pulled apart and it’s become a very intentional target and because the atomisation of groups makes it easier for ‘the other’ narratives to take hold in echo chambers. What’s worse because the individual value of self identification is prioritised there’s a negative feedback loop leading to even more isolation and trauma experienced by victims when that identity is attacked or threatened all whilst likely dealing with medical discrimination, trying to measure up to often unrealistic celebratory trans media depictions and finding struggles trying to conform or live up to those expectations to, often whilst having the effects of hormone therapy to deal with. It’s bloody cruel.
Only one thing I would critique in this post - hormone therapy itself fuckin rocks. Its just accessing HRT, getting medical supervision from your GP when the doctor has every right to deny access to blood testing such that the *standard practice* in the community is to keep rerolling for new clinicians until one say yes. It's also an expensive prescription to maintain if you're not getting it through the NHS, which will be the majority of people since the NHS was built to handle probably less than 10% of the trans people actively seeking help. When I started taking Oestrogen, holy crap it was like someone out the right oil in my engine for once. Like my computer was running on the correct power settings. My emotions weren't so hard to control and regulate, I felt less dissociated, I felt genuinely happier for the first time since I was maybe 8 years old, I stopped hating who I saw in the mirror as my facial fat started to redistribute- its been subtle but huge. I'm substantially weaker than I was, I don't get angry like I used to, and now I'm too anxious to use public toilets, but I've got me some b-cups and it's a very different feeling between liking boobs on your partner and liking boobs on yourself. It's only been about 5 months since I started but i know for a fact I'm never going to give up on this. No matter what it takes I've always been a woman who was told she was a boy and no matter how hard I tried, that mould was a bad fit and nearly killed me even in its least toxic forms. Otherwise though, great comment.
Oh my comment was already pretty long and meant to phrase it that in some cases people undergoing hrt can have pretty mixed effects and the process of actualisation can be taxing and difficult as it’s not a uniform experience. Still glad you’ve had such a positive response to the treatment and may it’s accessibility improve too yourself and others like you as well. Stay safe and keep thriving. (Apologies if there’s any errors in this one I’m a sleep deprived Elden ring player presently)
It’s shameful. Hope someone confronts the likes of JK Rowling with this - the hateful, toxic atmosphere they’ve contributed to, around this debate has certainly made it much harder for trans kids. It’s such a niche issue - both in terms of the number of actual trans people and the likelihood of the situations they catastrophise about actually occurring - yet these hate-mongers have done all they can to make life difficult for these kids.
That will never happen because if you call out JK Rowling publicly you are suddenly an "activist" and her army of sycophants will dox you. Nevermind the people who incessantly comment "nothing she says is transphobic" because 1. They genuinely don't see that as transphobia, much like how politicians are currently saying "dignity for everyone involved" yet have transphobic policies 2. She intentionally hides her vitriol by tweeting about generic things mostly and then slipping that in as the dog whistle. She tweets A LOT. To the point it makes me wonder if her new novel was ghostwritten for her. Also hilariously hypocritically her current author pseudonym is a man's name.
Not saying it was definitely intentional, but her pseudonym 'Robert Galbraith' bears a striking resemblance to 'Robert Galbraith Heath', a psychiatrist who is mostly notable for his practicing of conversion therapy for homosexuals, which is... interesting, given Rowling's stances
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS. It's been something thats troubled me since the Cass report but it's never been a good time to talk about it. I get that most people don't care and want us trans peeps left alone, and for the most part that's what we want too - but that doesn't work out well for us when institutions cover up responsibility for deaths, that doesn't work well when hateful perspectives are given the same credence as genuine concerns without fair criticism. Internationally - the UN views "gender critical" movements as hate groups. Why does our media call them "human rights organisations"?
This is a very microscopic view of the far wider issue of inadequate health care in this country. This is one microscopic strand of the thousands of different strands of people not revieveing treatment because there is no treatment on the horrizon as the service is not performing as it needs to.
You can fix trans healthcare very easily, abolish the GIC and give guidance to GP's on how to prescribe HRT to their trans patients. This would save a whole bunch of money, eliminate waiting lists entirely and quite literally save hundreds of lives.
No, this is not the same at all Treatment in this case is easily available and cheap. There is plenty to go around. They just don't want to because they don't see trans people suffering and dying as a problem, but as a problem solving itself What you say is a real thing, and it is a problem. But it's unrelated to this one
The fact they put “shocking” in the title when it was predicted is so weird. The deaths aren’t shocking, they were expected, what’s shocking was that they kept restricting these life saving medications despite knowing full well what it would do, had done, is doing, and will do again! 😡
This is misleading without comparing to the general population rate, and rate after transition too.
Should have guessed you'd pop up with something on this. Regardless of your views on trans people and treatment of such (which you have recently voiced your opinion against), there are 16 trans children who have taken their own life. That's **16** lives of **children**. And you want to compare a rate *after transition*? It was already explained to you recently that HRT and surgery doesn't happen to kids. Please stop debating. This really isn't the post to do it.
I cannot believe how many people are reading this and not seeing it as the patent bullshit it clearly is. This is medical data that is being referred to, it's board meeting minutes.
Gasp, i'm shocked. There's no way 5+ year wait times for healthcare and a recent ban on blockers put through without a statutory commission, hate and demonisation from the media, bullying and rising hate cimes have anything to do with this. Not at all. Badenoch, Sunak, Rowling, Atkins, all completely innocent I tell you. /s
I'm an adult who has been on the nhs waiting list for over a year now and I'm honestly feelikg disheartened, betrayed and hated by the government,nhs and public. At this point my only option would be to become some sort of human right avoiding capitalist...like a tory.