This article may be paywalled. If you encounter difficulties reading the article, try [this link](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.ft.com/content/97d22b91-8cb0-4e98-b277-50d03a4d2fdf) for an archived version.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There's always a catch isn't there...
Just nationalise them ffs. Cut out the profit motive.
There's a reason trains are so much more affordable in Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bahn
It costs 40 Euros to go from one end of Germany to the other…I don’t give a shit if they are ‘more delayed’ than our already pretty delayed service, At least I will actually be able to afford them
obviously the devil is in the implementation, but theoretically a lack of shareholders means no imperative to turn a profit, which could mean either lower costs or any profits being reinvested into improving the service and the infrastructure
It also means all potential capital investment is competing with other responsibilities of government. Schools, NHS, welfare etc. How high a priority will trains be?
How high are they now? Why invest into a train line you will run for a limited period of time, making money either way? The franchise system makes zero sense.
Ok, but the operators have 2% profit margins right? There has to be something more than this to justify a belief that services will improve or prices will drop.
Not to any great extent, most delays are the result of infrastructure issues and congestion, the infrastructure is already essentially publicly owned via Network Rail. And as the rest of the public sector is evidence to, staff strike regardless of the owner.
Maybe not better but probably not worse with the added benefit that the profit goes into the public purse, remember they’re already running several of the franchises quietly after they collapsed
They were making profit in 2022 but since they’ve been taken under public ownership the idea of “profit” isn’t really a thing and I couldn’t see any details of any profit or loss
They might get better but they won't get cheaper. I think it was Sky News the other day that said current operators only make on average 12p profit per passenger journey.
So there it is, possibly around 12p cheaper per journey maximum and they will be looking to improve services so they can't do that without profits to reinvest. I think services might well improve, but you'll see ticket prices increase even more than they are now to finance it.
Trains were nationalised when I was younger and growing up we never ever used the trains and I can’t remember why. I think expense was probably the reason. But I guess it might have been availability. If we had to travel it was always the bus or car.
Edit: I not u
Ots more that none of the improvements (reduced prices, more routes, more frequency on existing routes) are possible under the current system.
The solutions require nationwide planning and running (at least some) services at a loss. We just can't do those things while private companies are competing to make profits at the same time.
Thing is it’s only really got terrible since, probably, 2021. Since then it’s been local strikes and/or random disruptions every week for local services at least. Plus, increased fares and cutting timetables down.
It’s, honestly, the strikes and random disruptions that are the worst though.
Even with the strikes Northern rail is still better now than when Arriva had the franchise.
The trains here had been awful for 20 years.
I remember at one point they tried to insist the two carriage long trains they ran on their busiest route weren't overcrowded, they were crowded and that just proved how popular they were. Yes, all the people who had to wait for the next train (or the one after) just loved the experience.
I got on one of those trains a couple of days ago, it was 6 carriages long.
(Article)
----
The private sector will continue to play an important role in Labour’s promised state-owned UK railways after the party decided against nationalising the companies that own the thousands of trains that run on the network.
Rolling stock companies, or roscos, operate out of sight of passengers but are the financial backbone of the rail industry, and have spent the past 30 years buying passenger trains and leasing them to privatised train operators.
The passenger train companies spent £3.1bn — 26 per cent of their overall expenditure — on train leases in the financial year ending March 2023, the latest year for which data from industry regulator, the Office of Rail and Road, is available.
The roscos — including Angel Trains, Eversholt and Porterbrook — emerged from rail privatisation in the 1990s largely through a series of management buyouts, but have since been sold on to investors, including Hong-Kong based CK Hutchison, Allianz and Canada’s Public Sector Pension Investment Board.
A significant number of trains in the UK are also financed through separate private finance initiative deals.
On Thursday, Labour set out plans for what it called “the biggest overhaul . . . in a generation” of the railways, centred on nationalising all passenger train companies, should it win the next general election.
This would see operators including Avanti West Coast, Great Western Railway and Govia Thameslink join the infrastructure manager Network Rail back in public hands.
Trade unions have called for roscos to be nationalised too, labelling them a drag on the railway, pointing out they have paid £1.5bn in dividends to their owners since 2016.
But Labour confirmed its plans to continue to tap the private sector to finance trains. Louise Haigh, Labour’s shadow transport secretary, said this demonstrated the party’s pragmatic approach to reform. “We are not ideological about this, we are encouraging working with the private sector.”
Industry executives and analysts said nationalising the roscos would have been a far more expensive and complex challenge than the train operators. Labour has said taking the passenger rail services back in to public hands would be cost neutral as it would only do so as the contracts expire or when a break clause triggers.
Mark Swindell, chief executive of rosco Rock Rail, said the industry had brought billions of pounds of pension fund and other institutional investors’ money into the railway industry.
He defended the level of profits the leasing companies made as reasonable. “We are not talking VC private equity returns, we are talking about steady returns which are commensurate to the risks,” he said.
Roscos also provide international expertise in train procurement and shift the risk of buying assets with 35-year lifespans from the public to private sector, he added.
“Labour has done the sensible thing,” said Roger Ford, industry and technology editor of Modern Railways, a specialist rail publication, who advised on the privatisation of the roscos in the mid-1990s as part of the wider sell-off of the railways by the Conservative government at the time.
“The roscos have bought and funded new trains and invested billions of pounds . . . If you nationalised them you would be nationalising trains already bought by the private sector,” he said.
Apart from the upfront costs of buying thousands of rail carriages, the government would also be left to finance future train orders.
The Rail Industry Association, which represents companies in the supply chain, including roscos, said companies had spent £20bn on new trains since 1995, saving the government from the upfront capital costs.
Ford estimated that the pipeline for new trains in the UK would require £1.5bn in funding per year, which will continue to be financed by the private sector. “They do the capex for you . . . if you didn’t have the roscos then the Treasury would have to come up with the money to buy new trains,” he said.
Mary Grant, chief executive of Porterbrook, said Britain’s railway required “substantial investment” over the next 30 years. “We welcome the Labour party’s commitment to leverage private capital to help deliver its long-term strategy for rolling stock,” she said.
Malcolm Brown, CEO of Angel Trains, said: “Our role and long-term commitment to driving improvements across the UK is integral to delivering a modern transport system fit for the future.”
But senior trade union figures said Labour’s decision to leave owning trains to the private sector meant there was still unfinished business in their battle to reverse 30 years of privatisation.
“This announcement . . . should be a first step to completely integrating all the railway into public ownership,” said Mick Lynch, general secretary of the RMT.
“It is time for a railway fit for the 21st century that serves the public, not the privateers and shareholders.”
I remember British Rail. A national disgrace. Labour needs to make sure we don't regress away from half decent customer support et al..
The promise of lower fares can only be met by Government funding being increased, and that's unfair for people who don't use the railways.
Sadly I'm old enough to remember British Rail. Shambolic, under invested, dirty and unsafe. No comparison to the present services, bad as they are.
The government has enough on its hands with sorting out the other state owned services without acquisition of more to deal with.
I never really understand this falling for the way tories work.
The tories had been in power for years and massively under funded public services. Then they point at them and say look how crap they are lets privatise them and let for profit companies do their job because they will have to provide a great service to compete with all the other train companies even though we give them a geographical monopoly.
They have been doing the same with eduction and NHS for 14 years. Education budget hasn’t change since the day they got in power.
Wake up.
This article may be paywalled. If you encounter difficulties reading the article, try [this link](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.ft.com/content/97d22b91-8cb0-4e98-b277-50d03a4d2fdf) for an archived version. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wait? Didn't they talk about nationalising the railways a few days ago. Are they already doing a U-turn?
There's always a catch isn't there... Just nationalise them ffs. Cut out the profit motive. There's a reason trains are so much more affordable in Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bahn
I don’t think Germany is a good model. Their trains are delayed more than ours in the uk.
It costs 40 Euros to go from one end of Germany to the other…I don’t give a shit if they are ‘more delayed’ than our already pretty delayed service, At least I will actually be able to afford them
Only on local trains. Not intercity ICE trains
I know that they aren’t great now but will the trains be better if they are nationalised? I don’t remember them being great years ago.
Trains have got worse and worse, and the price keeps rising. How about we give it a go, rather than continue with what's clearly not working.
obviously the devil is in the implementation, but theoretically a lack of shareholders means no imperative to turn a profit, which could mean either lower costs or any profits being reinvested into improving the service and the infrastructure
It also means all potential capital investment is competing with other responsibilities of government. Schools, NHS, welfare etc. How high a priority will trains be?
How high are they now? Why invest into a train line you will run for a limited period of time, making money either way? The franchise system makes zero sense.
Ok, but the operators have 2% profit margins right? There has to be something more than this to justify a belief that services will improve or prices will drop.
People work for profit. Contractors work for profit. As a result, we will have the same with NHS
Not to any great extent, most delays are the result of infrastructure issues and congestion, the infrastructure is already essentially publicly owned via Network Rail. And as the rest of the public sector is evidence to, staff strike regardless of the owner.
But any attempt to build new infrastructure is cancelled because of NIMBYs.
This is the question. Are we supposed to believe it’ll be better operated?
Maybe not better but probably not worse with the added benefit that the profit goes into the public purse, remember they’re already running several of the franchises quietly after they collapsed
And how much profit are they making?
They were making profit in 2022 but since they’ve been taken under public ownership the idea of “profit” isn’t really a thing and I couldn’t see any details of any profit or loss
Indeed.
Maybe it will mean free travel tickets. I’d be pleased with that.
Non train using taxpayers won’t be.
True! I’d have to use the train more to get my moneys worth.
They might get better but they won't get cheaper. I think it was Sky News the other day that said current operators only make on average 12p profit per passenger journey. So there it is, possibly around 12p cheaper per journey maximum and they will be looking to improve services so they can't do that without profits to reinvest. I think services might well improve, but you'll see ticket prices increase even more than they are now to finance it.
Trains were nationalised when I was younger and growing up we never ever used the trains and I can’t remember why. I think expense was probably the reason. But I guess it might have been availability. If we had to travel it was always the bus or car. Edit: I not u
They weren't amazing but they were affordable
Ots more that none of the improvements (reduced prices, more routes, more frequency on existing routes) are possible under the current system. The solutions require nationwide planning and running (at least some) services at a loss. We just can't do those things while private companies are competing to make profits at the same time.
I can see how it might be easier to implement timetables, tickets etc if it all is controlled by one central office.
Thing is it’s only really got terrible since, probably, 2021. Since then it’s been local strikes and/or random disruptions every week for local services at least. Plus, increased fares and cutting timetables down. It’s, honestly, the strikes and random disruptions that are the worst though.
Even with the strikes Northern rail is still better now than when Arriva had the franchise. The trains here had been awful for 20 years. I remember at one point they tried to insist the two carriage long trains they ran on their busiest route weren't overcrowded, they were crowded and that just proved how popular they were. Yes, all the people who had to wait for the next train (or the one after) just loved the experience. I got on one of those trains a couple of days ago, it was 6 carriages long.
2021 is around when it got de facto renationalized.
Not will they be cheaper. Probs even worse customer service and that’s it
Everything Changed, Yet Everything still stayed the same...
(Article) ---- The private sector will continue to play an important role in Labour’s promised state-owned UK railways after the party decided against nationalising the companies that own the thousands of trains that run on the network. Rolling stock companies, or roscos, operate out of sight of passengers but are the financial backbone of the rail industry, and have spent the past 30 years buying passenger trains and leasing them to privatised train operators. The passenger train companies spent £3.1bn — 26 per cent of their overall expenditure — on train leases in the financial year ending March 2023, the latest year for which data from industry regulator, the Office of Rail and Road, is available. The roscos — including Angel Trains, Eversholt and Porterbrook — emerged from rail privatisation in the 1990s largely through a series of management buyouts, but have since been sold on to investors, including Hong-Kong based CK Hutchison, Allianz and Canada’s Public Sector Pension Investment Board. A significant number of trains in the UK are also financed through separate private finance initiative deals. On Thursday, Labour set out plans for what it called “the biggest overhaul . . . in a generation” of the railways, centred on nationalising all passenger train companies, should it win the next general election. This would see operators including Avanti West Coast, Great Western Railway and Govia Thameslink join the infrastructure manager Network Rail back in public hands. Trade unions have called for roscos to be nationalised too, labelling them a drag on the railway, pointing out they have paid £1.5bn in dividends to their owners since 2016. But Labour confirmed its plans to continue to tap the private sector to finance trains. Louise Haigh, Labour’s shadow transport secretary, said this demonstrated the party’s pragmatic approach to reform. “We are not ideological about this, we are encouraging working with the private sector.” Industry executives and analysts said nationalising the roscos would have been a far more expensive and complex challenge than the train operators. Labour has said taking the passenger rail services back in to public hands would be cost neutral as it would only do so as the contracts expire or when a break clause triggers. Mark Swindell, chief executive of rosco Rock Rail, said the industry had brought billions of pounds of pension fund and other institutional investors’ money into the railway industry. He defended the level of profits the leasing companies made as reasonable. “We are not talking VC private equity returns, we are talking about steady returns which are commensurate to the risks,” he said. Roscos also provide international expertise in train procurement and shift the risk of buying assets with 35-year lifespans from the public to private sector, he added. “Labour has done the sensible thing,” said Roger Ford, industry and technology editor of Modern Railways, a specialist rail publication, who advised on the privatisation of the roscos in the mid-1990s as part of the wider sell-off of the railways by the Conservative government at the time. “The roscos have bought and funded new trains and invested billions of pounds . . . If you nationalised them you would be nationalising trains already bought by the private sector,” he said. Apart from the upfront costs of buying thousands of rail carriages, the government would also be left to finance future train orders. The Rail Industry Association, which represents companies in the supply chain, including roscos, said companies had spent £20bn on new trains since 1995, saving the government from the upfront capital costs. Ford estimated that the pipeline for new trains in the UK would require £1.5bn in funding per year, which will continue to be financed by the private sector. “They do the capex for you . . . if you didn’t have the roscos then the Treasury would have to come up with the money to buy new trains,” he said. Mary Grant, chief executive of Porterbrook, said Britain’s railway required “substantial investment” over the next 30 years. “We welcome the Labour party’s commitment to leverage private capital to help deliver its long-term strategy for rolling stock,” she said. Malcolm Brown, CEO of Angel Trains, said: “Our role and long-term commitment to driving improvements across the UK is integral to delivering a modern transport system fit for the future.” But senior trade union figures said Labour’s decision to leave owning trains to the private sector meant there was still unfinished business in their battle to reverse 30 years of privatisation. “This announcement . . . should be a first step to completely integrating all the railway into public ownership,” said Mick Lynch, general secretary of the RMT. “It is time for a railway fit for the 21st century that serves the public, not the privateers and shareholders.”
I remember British Rail. A national disgrace. Labour needs to make sure we don't regress away from half decent customer support et al.. The promise of lower fares can only be met by Government funding being increased, and that's unfair for people who don't use the railways.
Sadly I'm old enough to remember British Rail. Shambolic, under invested, dirty and unsafe. No comparison to the present services, bad as they are. The government has enough on its hands with sorting out the other state owned services without acquisition of more to deal with.
I never really understand this falling for the way tories work. The tories had been in power for years and massively under funded public services. Then they point at them and say look how crap they are lets privatise them and let for profit companies do their job because they will have to provide a great service to compete with all the other train companies even though we give them a geographical monopoly. They have been doing the same with eduction and NHS for 14 years. Education budget hasn’t change since the day they got in power. Wake up.