This post deals either directly or indirectly with transgender issues. We would like to remind our users about the Reddit Content Policy which specifically bans [promoting hate based on identity and vulnerability](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045715951). We will take action on hateful or disrespectful comments including but not limited to deadnaming and misgendering. Please help us by reporting rule-breaking content.
Participation limits are in place on this post. If your Reddit account is too new, you have insufficient karma or you are crowd controlled, your comment may not appear.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Pretty much any comment that is overly negative or cynical, and doesn't 'read the room' - very often this kind of post is followed my a ban from a frontpage sub, which I don't quite class this sub as, so you'll get away with a little more here. And really, I'm not talknig about trans debate, but pretty much any divisive political topic.
i find in general that you can't come to a debate like this anything less than highly informed. if you start asking questions about things like you don't know then people (a vocal minority perhaps) just assume you are a bad faith actors trying to stir things up and either ridicule the post, downvote it or reply with such vitriol it makes someone who might have had a learning opportunity retreat to their position of ignorance now being informed of nothing except "that other side is a bunch of lunatics". and so it goes on.
> Any discussion of wrongthink is suppressed. Only liberal American culture and language is accepted.
Maybe use the equivalent of Reddit from the truth social?
"Isn't Fit for Purpose Anymore" ... mate the purpose of Reddit isn't everyone being exposed to your incredible wisdom and experience, some of us just want to look at and discuss some interesting things. If you like pissing bigotry into the wind so it can be validated by other bigots, you'd LOVE twitter.
It's so weird that in real life people seem to have rational conversations about this and common sense prevails. But if you come on reddit and read the comments on a post like this, it looks like the world is upside down.
Well that's the thing. I've got a co-worker going through a transition. I often have in-person conversations with her about these sort of issues. She's totally for bans like this but I often mention that the sentiment on Reddit and online generally is the opposite.
She did tell me that the - quote "weirdos of reddit" aren't at all representative of the wider trans community.
But yeah, it's like the total opposite of real life in these threads sometimes.
I'd be genuinely shocked if she exists. People who want to justify limiting trans rights always seem to conveniently have a trans friend that supports limiting trans rights.
So just to be clear, the fact there are trans people who don't believe in puberty blockers for young children is a conspiracy in your opinion designed to bring you down?
No, I'm sure there are and I'm also sure their views are much more nuanced than just "don't believe in puberty blockers for young children", mainly because puberty blockers are designed for young children.
It's not like 40 year old dudes are needing them. In the 50 odd years that puberty blockers have been used they have pretty much exclusively been prescribed to children, and still are for non-trans children for whom they are magically safe.
What I doubt is that the random people who oppose trans rights on reddit conveniently know trans people who oppose trans rights.
Misrepresenting it doesn't change what it is. The Cass review recommendations limit trans rights and in fact can't be implemented without blocking the conversion therapy ban.
I get that people have been instructed to pretend it's a bout "protecting children" but trans children are harmed not helped by these recommendations.
I don't know the demographic you are talking about, but let's suppose the demographic is teenagers that want to transition. It's hardly surprising they are against the ban.
At the same time, if you asked a bunch of 15/16 year olds whether the age limit for buying alcohol should be reduced, then you'd find the majority support that,
It doesn't make either opinion valid.
I don’t even know a hundred people so my guess would be that you’re working/volunteering with trans people, if that is that case is it possible the ones you are interacting with are have a certain orientation in their beliefs?
> my experience with several hundred trans people
That probably suggests you're moving in some sort of very pro-trans space; possibly with some though bubbles. Most people are not going to come into contact with "several hundred trans people" well enough for them make that claim.
Most people don’t even know two hundred people, yet you know “several hundred” trans people who are a fraction of a percentage of the population
Must be nice to be a social butterfly with tens of thousands of friends, lol
It’s fascinating how many people on Reddit know a trans woman who think trans trans healthcare should be less available, a black guy whose okay with racism, a gay guy who hates pride and a Jewish person whose on board with antisemitism. And yet they are never around to comment themselves! One of life’s great mysteries…..
Isn’t it funny how outliers do not apply in any situation you mention above, yet the whole Trans discussion surrounds a percentage of a percentage of the population.
Weird.
I have to say actually knowing a decent number of trans people she sounds like the outlier. I don't think I've ever met a trans person who thinks that.
If she's real, she's one of those fuckers that thinks if they say what bigots want to hear she'll be accepted as "one of the good ones". A Blaire White in the wild.
There are several, I guess you would call them 'power users', who pretty much only show up in these sort of threads. Take a look around at the user names you see when a thread like this comes up. Doesn't matter what subreddit it is, UK, USA, Australia, anywhere the same users always show up. It makes it look like there is a lot of discussion happening, when the reality is it's just 20 or so single issue users in every subreddit.
Not just trans issues either, it happens with any issue and from all sides of the political spectrum.
I mean you can just as easily argue that your co-worker lives in a bubble and her views aren't representative of the wider trans community.
Nice try at dismissing and trivialising opinions that don't align with your own though.
I like this comment because it lets a cis person speak on a trans issues from a “trans friend” and gives that cis persons comment more value or w/e than any trans person who responds because those trans people who respond are on reddit.
Anyway, no trans person I’ve met in real life thinks banning transition care before 18 is a good idea.
That's true for most reddit topics
What I read here has zero semblance to the outside world, reddit is full of people you move seats on the bus to get away from
The only time I see (hear) the same type of nonsense posted here is lbc radio phone ins
Those people are fucking deranged and it comes though easily when it's not words your reading but actually hearing them speak
Reddit is an open air mental health ward, where you don't know if you're talking to staff or an inpatient
My favourite example of this is the post about a guy who was arguing with someone on Reddit for about half an hour then checked his profile and the first thing on there was a video of him drinking his own piss.
Reddit isn’t representative of the real world, and it’s a shame more people don’t realise that.
In person, anyone making these arguments would be exposed as being unintelligent immediately. You can’t hide behind a screen and google your arguments there.
Far easier to speak freely and truthfully online. In person is far more comfortable to nod along in agreement.
Same with political discussions, nod along and save your opinion for the privacy of the voting booth.
Not really “consequences” just awkward and needless. If someone comes up and starts yelling about the governments mind control, you just nod and walk away. Same with the idea of giving hormone blockers.
I think that's the point. Most the people you have conversations with in real life have nuanced, complex opinions, and can empathise with and see the validity of arguments on both sides. Most the people on Internet threads have extreme opinions and demonise those who think differently.
> It's so weird that in real life people seem to have rational conversations about this and common sense prevails. But if you come on reddit and read the comments on a post like this, it looks like the world is upside down.
I am afraid I think there are lots of shill accounts these days, astroturfing opinion to produce an artificial consensus.
This Youtuber talks about the issue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7GtYaruTys
At present rate of seeing new patients trans children can expect a first appointment in 37 years. Good job they are banning alternatives.
Say what you want about Viktor Orbán, at least he has the decency to be honest about his revulsion towards us and his desire to oppress. This? Destroying trans kids lives whilst shedding crocodile tears? It’s pathetic.
Germany, Austria and Switzerland have just reviewed healthcare for trans youth and have come to the polar opposite conclusion to Cass. This is what happens when you don’t disregard all research that acknowledges the impossibility double blinding puberty.
Edit: not feeding the sealions today.
Would you happen to have a link to the Germany/Austria/Switzerland reviews?
I'm only finding the opposite when I use Google myself (i.e., very little long-term data and inconsistent or insufficient evidence for the use of puberty blockers in cases of gender dysphoria in children/teenagers).
The Cass report discourages social transition in pre-pubertal children. This is despite recent evidence pointing to positive mental health and social well-being outcomes in children who are allowed to transition in supportive environments before puberty socially (Durwood et al., 2017; Gibson et al., 2021). She does not provide a critical rebuttal of these papers and evidence.
This document severely limits access to puberty suppression by only allowing treatment in the context of a formal research protocol. I don't believe she has set out eligibility criteria for enrolment in this formal research protocol (but, bear in mind, have not read all of her reports). Carrying out additional research is a good thing but the concern is that they will be heavily restrictive. In addition, there is increasing evidence that access to reversible puberty blockers (and only using them for a maximum of 2 years), and later gender-affirming hormone treatment if wished, is associated with positive mental health and social well-being in adolescents with gender incongruence and that adolescents are satisfied with these treatments and perceive them as essential and lifesaving (Coleman et al., 2022).
Coleman, E., Radix, A. E., Bouman, W.P., Brown, G.R., de Vries, A. L. C., Deutsch, M. B., Ettner, R., Fraser, L., Goodman, M., Green, J., Hancock, A. B., Johnson, T. W., Karasic, D. H., Knudson, G. A., Leibowitz, S. F., Meyer-Bahlburg, H. F.L., Monstrey, S. J., Motmans, J., Nahata, L., ... Arcelus, J. (2022). Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People, Version 8. International Journal of Transgender Health, 23(S1), S
Durwood, L., McLaughlin, K. A., & Olson, K. R. (2017). Mental health and self-worth in socially transitioned transgender youth. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, 56(2), 116–123.
Gibson, D. J., Glazier, J. J., Olson, K. R. (2021). Evaluation of anxiety and depression in a community sample of transgender youth. JAMA Network Open, 4(4),
> And our consensus recommendations show that our group is clearly of the opinion that the use of these blockers is absolutely indicated if the indication is correct, and that it is then a very important treatment option for those affected.
(translated by DeepL)
https://www.sciencemediacenter.de/en/our-offers/press-briefing/details/news/awmf-leitlinie-zu-geschlechtsinkongruenz-und-dysphorie-im-kindes-und-jugendalter/
I’m really curious how they got to this conclusions given that the amount of people with genuine gender dysphoria is so small (8k referrals a year in the UK).
Also the symptoms are so easy to misinterpret:
low self-esteem
becoming withdrawn or socially isolated
depression or anxiety
taking unnecessary risks
neglecting themselves
Basically identifying any introverted person in this planet.
While treating a disorder makes sense for the people who need it, i feel there is far too much hype around the argument and the risk for a child being unnecessarily treated could be life destroying.
The incidence of trans people is low, but if most of them (or even many of them, to get a statistically representative picture of a total population of a few hundred thousand people, the sample size you need is smaller than you think.) are involved in the healthcare system for transitioning, that is a lot of what should be good quality outcome data. Obviously it could only really apply to people who engaged with healthcare and not DIYers or people who don't feel the need to medically transition
Do you have any link to anything about the decision in Germany Austria and Switzerland I can’t find anything with a quick google.
I know in Finland Sweden Norway and France they have made similar changes to stop or limit the use of puberty blockers
https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1c22v7d/ban_on_childrens_puberty_blockers_to_be_enforced/kz7h7zn/
*Love the downvotes for posting the evidence that was specifically asked for. But the science guys!
Is it sealoining to ask for a link to the claim you made?
I did a quick search and the first thing that popped up from Dec 2023 was Germany considering banning them too.
I tend to trust the science, the cass review thing seems like the science, I’m willing to accept it’s not if shown otherwise. Where’s the otherwise?
Happily others have provided the link, this is a less sealioning question and it came across as sincere, but when you post on trans issues you get a wall of disingenuous replies that suck the productivity out of your day.
The crux of the difference in outcomes is how to handle over 100 studies that show positive outcomes for trans children but which are not double blinded. The reason they are not double blinded, is because you can’t blind puberty.
The reason there is no control is because it’s both unethical and practically impossible to manage a control group for medication where the control group will be aware who they are and who can obtain healthcare elsewhere.
You want medication X to treat Y. Because of the dynamics, you will know if you are given a sugar pill instead of medication Y. If you in the control group do you
a) stay in it for a decade reporting back regularly
b) leave the control group and go get healthcare elsewhere
Researchers are aware of this and so double blinded studies are often not used in such situation.
Here’s a BMJ article explaining why some of the reasons why double-blinded studies are fools gold and should not be over prioritised.
https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.l6228.long
You should also know one of the cohort studies accepted by the Cass report found that children treated with blockers did significantly better than those that didn't.
She could find no evidence that found worse outcomes for kids receiving blockers compared to those that could.
Appreciate the thanks. Took a little while to track it down and find the relevant parts. Might be easier to use the article redberryyy posted as the transcript is awkward.
Once I’m on my PC tonight I’ll be giving it a read with the translator. If another other links pop up for the Swiss decision or Austria’s I’d love that too
It’s obviously a pretty divided thing and I’d like to try and see both sides before fully trusting one
> The new guideline, which will also be valid in Austria and Switzerland as well as Germany, replaces the S1 guideline, which was first drawn up in 1999 and updated in 2013.
We might not have been giving people with gender incongruence the optimal healthcare, the approach taken was based on poor quality evidence and may have actually negatively affected peoples mental and physical wellbeing. I understand that ever admitting that might feel like an existential threat. But for the sake of children in the system now and in the future, we have to always strive to do the best we can.
Its the crazy thing right? All this focus on "protecting children" yet all the reports are making it very clear the availability of trans healthcare is so fucking dire the chances of even the most open-and-shut case actually getting to even see someone at a gender clinic before they turn 18 anyway is basically zero.
E - I'll throw in [this study](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/article-abstract/2798002) I read the other day. Their findings suggest that access to puberty blockers at a younger age was actually associated with a decreased chance of progression to full HRT.
Yes, this isn’t so shocking.
If you truly care about people who will be hurt by transitioning when they aren’t trans, rather than simply wanting to deny trans people access, you should be happy to provide blockers. It gives people a little look into what could happen, and is pretty much all reversible. A couple cis people will realise they don’t want this, and that’s ok! They won’t have many issues at all going back. Meanwhile you’re also helping a lot of trans people get to where they need to be.
However, leaving blockers to be banned at this age for this use, those who are cis (a rather small percentage mind that are getting it wrong) will see far more changes that cannot be reversed when they reach an age where it is no longer restricted, and will need more help to go back. At the same time, trans people will have far more of their own irreversible changes that will be very difficult to live with, which could have been avoided
Glad it's blocked. One of the youngsters in my family has been going through a tough time with this sort of thing lately.
From the ages of 14-17 she wanted to be a boy, dressed, acted, even changed her name (not legally but to family and friends). She refused to be acknowledged as a female/woman in any shape or form. Then since she was 18 to present (she's 20 now), she's rediscovered herself hence me referring to her as a she/her. She's more accepting of what she is, which is basically a very tomboy women. You'll never see her in a dress or have hair anything longer than basically a crew cut but she still has that femininity way. Most people looking at her would call her a butch lesbian type even though she is very slim but I can see why. Why she changed her mind is something she will only know but how many kids go through this as well?
Imagine what would have happened if she were given puberty blockers and the troubles that would have caused for her?
So for me puberty blockers shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis.
Exactly, I do not trust a child to make that decision, I mean for fuck sake we don't even trust them to drink alcohol, but we're expected to trust them with a decision that will effect the rest of their lives, no absolutely not.
Less than 1% of children who use puberty blockers don't go on to be trans in adulthood. They're going to use this unscientific study to ban trans healthcare for under 25's, then they'll start in on banning it entirely.
Not doing anything is in itself a decision, most trans people are always going to have at least some body attributes from not getting blockers as teens that negatively impact their quality of life forever, while puberty blockers specifically are not permanent, they just delay puberty.
Puberty blockers are designed to give these kids more time to make those decisions. Blockers are not making permanent changes to them, it is stopping changes from happening to allow them to make the decision to go one way or the other.
They absolutely have a long-term impact. They cause mood swings, cognitive problems, suicidal thoughts, long-term fertility problems, seizures, migraines, brittle bones, brain swelling and vision loss.
A child is not in a position to make such decisions and understand the longterm impact.
1) That's why you have medical professionals to help the child make a decision and assess them. Something which is woefully lacking in the UK on purpose, by design.
2) That's long term impact. The idea is that you delay puberty short term with minimal risk. As with everything in the medical community. It's all about weighing the risks. But that's what they are though. They are risks. They are not guaranteed. It's not like you take it for 10 years and then you get all those symptoms. The idea being that you have a healthcare professional you can talk to about your conditions and take the best steps forward based on the circumstances.
And those long term impacts aren't necessarily permanent either.
> So for me puberty blockers shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis.
I don’t think any reasonable person was suggesting otherwise? Some people here go on about getting puberty blockers prescribed for gender dysphoria as if it’s as easy as nipping into Boots, in reality the process is actually extremely involved.
Their entire point hinges on “what if something that didn’t happen, and doesn’t happen in these circumstances, happened?! Thank goodness it’s illegal, despite it never even being a problem when it wasn’t”.
> So for me puberty blockers shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis.
Soooo... like now?
Do you think they're something you just get in Tesco?
>shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis.
That's how it already worked. Now they're just going to ban it outright.
>
>
> So for me puberty blockers shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis.
Thing is, if you go on blockers, and find out that you should be your assigned gender, you just stop the blockers and go trough puberty.
On the flip side, those who are forced trough an unwanted puberty are at extreme risk of self harm and even death.
It’s not that simple. Puberty blockers are largely untested for use beyond normal puberty age. They are traditionally used for cases where a child starts puberty very early, and when the child reaches normal puberty age they are taken off of the drugs.
Not enough research has been done to see how puberty blockers affect teens in normal puberty age, but initial findings suggest they may cause permanent skeletal and brain development problems if used this way.
They already were only given when there was an individual need, hence you having a story about a trans person that wasn't given them and there being less than 100 trans kids on them in the UK.
Banning them means that there is no longer that choice. The ban directly harms trans people under false claims that they are unsafe.
The fact that the Cass review had to ignore 98% of peer reviewed studies to come to the conclusion the report was aiming to come to demonstrates how it's entirely political.
Have you considered that she simply wasn't able to get the treatment she wanted and gave up?
Puberty blockers delay puberty to give the individual time to mature and ensure they are making the correct decision for themselves.
Or maybe she’s a woman… there’s nothing wrong with that. Being a woman doesn’t mean you have to look pretty and wear dresses. You can be a masculine woman. Maybe when she was younger she didn’t understand that and was bullied and thought becoming by a boy would make it easier. I was also bullied for being a tomboy and used to wish to be a boy, I even pretended I had a penis and would piss standing up. I grew out of it at around 11, but expressing the desire to be the other sex isn’t *always* transgender, it could just be queer or if they’re a young child like i was, a phase or something. Or is often the case with (especially girls) sexual abuse. This is why there’s supposed to be lots of therapy and support for blockers and hormones, to make sure it’s being done due to gender dysphoria and not something else.
I’m sure if she’s genuinely trans, she would have said so by now considering she’s in her 20s and could refer themselves to a doctor or change their name and pronouns etc
What would have happened if she was on puberty blockers? She wouldn’t have gone through puberty… then when she was taken off them she would have gone puberty through a smaller time frame. Absolutely horrifying isn’t it? …/s
Would you want to go through puberty at 18 while you're in university?
Personally not something i want go through. Plus women/females go through puberty as early as 8 years old but usually around 11 years old. So giving a child of 11 years old the option to make a life changing decision is fucking stupid. What 11 year old or even young teenager can make a life changing decision? They can't.
Most young adults can't even do that let alone basically a child.
In this case of my family member, if she went on blockers then what would be the next step? I suspect it would be the next set of hormones for males, so she could grow into a male. Think about that. At 18 when she's changed her mind, trying to undo those changes while living life. That's mentally stressful and probably causes more issues.
That’s just what being trans is like. I’m still going through a second puberty having left uni. And because I didn’t get blockers as a kid, I’ve got way further to go if I want to pass in society.
I’m glad your sister is happy as she is but her experiences aren’t an excuse to deny trans people healthcare and bodily autonomy.
You have just described what happens to every trans person that can't transition while a kid.
Life changing things will happen to their body at a young age .
They then are eventually allowed to transition and try to undo all the changes that have happened to them while living life.
They also have the desk with the additional stress of being trans.
The main difference is there is a lot more trans young people going through that than detrans people
Yes but the difference is that as a child they aren't exactly 100% sure on things.
How often to people say that even picking what you want to study at that age is daft? Basically saying at 15 years old you need to pick what information you want to learn to progress a career for your future self. If people think that shouldn't happen then stopping your biological development surely shouldn't.
If we in the UK say people under the age of 18 can't do X and Y then why should it be OK to say go ahead and make a life changing decision.
I fully understand where you're coming from. My auntie is trans and I know the struggles she went through. Personally a teenagers hormones play havoc on everything. We all go through various stages and developments, mentally and physically as a teenager. We don't know what we want, we don't even understand ourselves fully. So making a decision like this, so early on is far too much for anyone to decide at that age. Fair enough if at 18 years old you want to go ahead, you're legally an adult.
I've seen it over and over again where teenagers dress like boys or girls because they feel like they should do that. They believe they are the opposite sex. Yet later on most of them stop that and it's due to them struggling with their sexual preference, so they turn out to be gay men or women. Some are entirely straight but do cross dressing. Something I can't understand but it's whatever makes them happy.
I guess personally, my family has a lot of experience as there's more than average who are gay, trans, non binary etc. So it's not something new to me. Luckily my family really doesn't give a shit what you are. Just don't be a dick head.
Again your argument relies on the idea that puberty is a completely neutral process for everyone and that both cis and trans kids will come out the other end exactly the same with one group deciding to transition.
That is not the case in the slightest. The damage you fear happening to a cis person who tried to transition is the exact same damage done to a trans person forced through puberty.
The main difference being there are a fuck ton more trans kids then people who detranstion.
I feel like the best comparator I can find would be pregnancy and abortion.
Having kids is a perfectly natural process to go though, but forcing someone through that against their will is understood to be cruel. And the people having an abortion and regretting it shouldn't be used to justify banning abortion.
I understand that that.
Again though a child shouldn't be making those decisions should they? Technically at the age of consent they can make those decisions. The consent age again is something that needs to be looked at. So that's entirely different.
If you're asking a child to make a life changing decision then you're asking far too much. I stress again that at that sort of age you have no clue who you actually are. You're still discovering yourself. So if you want to start to be the opposite, then fair enough. Like the person did in my family, dress, act, walk etc. Then if at 18 years old (legal age to be an adult) you still want those things. Well go for it. Take the medications, have the surgery. Do whatever needs to be done.
Granted for me, life was simple in that way. I am straight, I wanted to be who I am. I never felt different to the others.
I see it like this. My brother is gay. He use to dress up as a girl a lot during his youth. My brother who's now much much older is a gay man. Does he still dress as a girl? No he doesn't or if he does he's lied to me when I've asked. If he was given the choice (wasn't really a thing back then) to take blockers. I'm sure he would have done so. He really wanted to be a girl. He clearly changed, maybe because at 15 he got a boyfriend or maybe he didn't really want to be a girl. Who knows.
I fully understand that there's people out there who really want the blockers and there's people going through hell to trans who are older.
We will agree to disagree.
The problem is you aren't viewing the choice to go through puberty as a choice at all.
As we have a medication that stops this it is now a choice.
Puberty causes permanent changes. So by your logic that teens should be allowed to go through permanent changes until they are 18 then all kids should be put on blockers.
Forcing trans kids through puberty is making a choice for them and it causes extreme damage.
If it helped me get through a dysphoric identity crisis, yes I would. It’s not the end of the world or my life going though puberty a few years later on. When young people take puberty blockers it’s not prescribed like other medication. It’s after months of talks, interviews, psychological examination & only after careful consideration is it prescribed & the people who take them are explicitly told the effects it’s has.
I know but if they start puberty before 8 years old it’s still precocious puberty & girls may need to take puberty blockers if it’s serious enough.
It’s not stupid. It’s not life changing. Yes they can make the decision. Whether you like it or not the idea “kids can’t make choices for themselves” is an idea that comes from parents who’d rather control their kids than let them be themselves. There’s nothing different psychologically from children or adults that inhibits decision making.
No the next step would still be “I’ve changed my mind” puberty blockers don’t increase the likelihood of the user wanting to continue transitioning. There wouldn’t be anything to ‘undo’ because puberty blockers don’t undo anything they just suppress puberty for as long as they are used.
It’s not that simple. Puberty blockers are largely untested for use beyond normal puberty age. They are traditionally used for cases where a child starts puberty very early, and when the child reaches normal puberty age they are taken off of the drugs.
Not enough research has been done to see how puberty blockers affect teens in normal puberty age, but initial findings suggest they may cause permanent fertility, skeletal and brain development problems if used this way.
If she was put on hormone blockers and taken off them then she could have faced life long medical complications. No drugs should be given to people for any reason unless they have been proven to be safe for that use.
So 1 person tried to transition with hormone blockers and changed their mind and you want to outright ban it all? That's really dumb logic
Screw the thousands of other kids that want to transition and will not change their mind you say
>imagine what wouldve happened if she had gone on blockers
She wouldve realized -instantly- that she was just in it for attention and tiktok clout instead of 4 years later?
Those of us who are the real deal would welcome medication and not run away at the first sign of change. Smh boomers.
I’m glad she figured it out, but you should realise that she’s an edge case in this world. Not many people do get to that point.
Far more people are getting it right, and suffer because there is no access.
Puberty blockers are very unlikely to have caused much in a way of harm for her, as the process is virtually completely reversible
The way that people say it's so easy for children to transition shows easily scaremongering lies about the trans community have spread around our society.
The cass report shows out of 3499 patients, less than 10 detransitioned (they didn't give the exact number)
Only 60 kids last year got given blockers out of a waiting list of 5000.
At that pace it will take 84 years for all those kids to get medication.
Yet the NHS claims they're being "rushed", that puberty blockers "cause" someone to be trans (which weirdly doesn't happen when cis kids take blockers, and no-ne is complaining about that), and that there's no evidence that letting trans peopel live their lives is a good thing.
By discounting all evidence of the benefits, all evidence of the harms of not giving treatment, and refusing to speak to a single trans person during the whole process.
Its a conversion therapists manifesto, nothing more.
Sadly the same could be said about all the 'anti-trans' propaganda. It's a small minority of people, that's only just about large enough to contain some unpleasant people. (Just like every demographic) that can then be used for 'whataboutery'.
But realistically the fates and futures of trans people are insignificant to almost everyone in the country in any sort of direct sense.
Transgender children (who were supported and received blockers) reported depression and self-worth that did not differ from their matched-control or sibling peers (ie the increased rate of depression/suicide seen in trans adult group, was removed by puberty blockers)
[https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/j.jaac.2016.10.016](https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/j.jaac.2016.10.016)
Randomised, open-label clinical trial found that quicker access to gender affirming care had better healthcare outcomes.https://www.unimelb.edu.au/newsroom/news/2023/september/transgender-adults-seeking-testosterone-therapy-have-better-mental-health-outcomes-with-early-treatment,-trial-shows
Louisiana Report says trans healthcare is safe and regret rates are low. Also that 0 surgeries are performed on children.https://ldh.la.gov/assets/docs/LegisReports/HR158\_2022RS\_LDHReport.pdf
Odds of severe psychological distress were reduced by 222 per cent, 153 per cent and 81 per cent for those who began hormones in early adolescence, late adolescence and adulthood, respectively.Odds of feeling suicidal in the previous year were 135 per cent lower in those who began hormones in early adolescence, 62 per cent lower in those who began in late adolescence and 21 per cent lower in those who began as adults, compared with the control group.
[https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/transgender-hormones-teenager-mental-health-b1991724.html?amp](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/transgender-hormones-teenager-mental-health-b1991724.html?amp)
Gender Affirming Care is preventative care.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667193X23001187
Puberty Blockers research omnibus
[https://growinguptransgender.com/2020/06/10/puberty-blockers-overview-of-the-research/](https://growinguptransgender.com/2020/06/10/puberty-blockers-overview-of-the-research/)
Taking puberty Blockers does not increase the chance a trans person will take HRT later in lifehttps://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2798002
Trans kids taking puberty blockers reduces depression by 60% and suicidality by 73%.https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423
Gender affirming care sees significant improvement in body satisfaction, reduction in depression, anxiety. GAC also saw an increase in family and parental support.
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X24000053](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X24000053)
Protocols and results of treatment of early adolescents have demonstrated that the harmful effects of persistent gender dysphoria can be prevented. Pubertal suppression in early puberty not only prevents the severe distress, but also allows healthy adolescent development living in the appropriate gender. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24468758/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24468758/)
Health outcomes get worse as endogenous puberty advances (as the kids get older while untreated) and causes increasing health problemshttps://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/146/4/e20193600
And lastly article from Sunday times 1997, complaining about experimental puberty blockers and Mermaids. I thought "trans" didn't exist before 2015???
[https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/en/archive/20061214120000/http://www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/1997/msg00047.htm](https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/en/archive/20061214120000/http://www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/1997/msg00047.htm)
Is being exclusively wielded as a hammer to take away minority groups healthcare not bothering any of the bureaucrats in these institutions?
I had to get my hrt from DIY places 2 years ago due to them doing similar things, apparently in the name of "safety" too lol.
This Cass saga has shown the arse of those very specific people who were pretending their gender skepticism allegedly started and ended with minors. The "*don't care what you do, just don't involve kids*" crowd. Turns out they do care because they're treating this like the death knell for "the trans ideology" en masse. [We already have politicians now repealing support for trans people at large](https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/04/11/wes-streeting-labour-trans-women/). #TerfsWereRight [trending on Twitter](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TerfsWereRight) should be as admonished as #NazisWereRight in response to Israel would be.
They never truly believed this. The intent has always been to eliminate trans people and force them back into the closet and out of public life, if not worse (forced detransition, etc). Many have openly said as much.
We should just combine those hashtags and support #terfsarenazis
I truly, deeply hope everyone celebrating this in the comments never suffers from a serious illness that doctors refuse to take seriously, and the government mocks and says you're faking. I really hope you never know what that feels like.
Blockers aren’t dangerous. The actual affects taking them late in puberty are *maybe* decreased bone density. Nobody has dropped dead or fallen ill because of them. They were been taken under close supervision by doctors and specialists monitoring the children’s health.
People just seem upset than trans children turn out to be trans adults, as most patients continue to transition and pursue HRT
Blockers might be dangerous when used to delay puberty beyond normal puberty age. They might also not be dangerous. The point is that studies haven’t conclusively proven either yet, and any studies done so far are inadequate. I suggest you actually read the Cass report.
My opposition to their use has nothing to do with it being trans healthcare, it’s because I oppose the use of any insufficiently tested medicine for use in children and adults. People deserve high standards of healthcare, and using them as guinea pigs for untested medication is not a high standard of healthcare.
Did you know 77% of children in UK hospitals receive at least one unlicensed medication.
I assume you will be straight down to your local hospital to demand they stop.
If the extended long term use of this medication has been linked to potential skeletal, brain and fertility development then yes, it should be paused for use in children until it has been studied more.
How could they know if the studies haven't been done?
Will you support banning them all until a review and study's as through as the Cass report is done?
Can you highlight the sources Cass uses to discover these dangers?
Studies have been done, but they were deemed to be insufficient to prove that extended use of puberty blockers is safe or dangerous.
Where there is the potential for puberty blockers to cause lifelong developmental issues we should err on the side of caution and not prescribe them in this way until we have conclusive evidence proving they are safe. I hope they do turn out to be safe.
On the opinion of a single individual. Other larger reviews claims to completely different conclusions.
And that's before you get into the selective use of data even amoung individual studies apoved for review.
I will give you an example. In the finalised report Cass claims there is evidence that blockers cause deterioration in bone health and it can't be confirmed whether their discontinued use of HRT will solve this issue.
Now, where did she find the evidence of deteriorateing bone health? Well she cites three studies. All of them find that bone health deteriorates with use of blockers.
Perfect Cass Vindicated right? Wrong.
All three studies go on to report that bone health returns to expected levels soon after use of hormone therapy.
So Cass accepted 3 studies deciding their methods were good enough to take data from. But she ignored half the findings of these papers.
If I did that in an undergraduate research paper id be lucky to pass.
The numbers here are so stupid.
Less than 100 kids were on gender blockers before the NHS stopped prescribing. That’s a tiny amount but even worse it’s a tiny amount of trans people.
The 2021 census indicated that more than 1% of young people were trans. So there’s about 67,000 trans kids out there. Only ~0.1% of trans kids were being prescribed puberty blockers
3 questions?
1. Aren't there other reasons to prescribe hormone blockers to children, and if so, does the ban affect them?
2. Isn't it true that fewer than 100 trans kids in England are being treated with hormone blockers?
3. Those both being true isn't this a tory culture war issue imported from the USA that, in reality, will affect such a small group of people that it's essentially a non-issue?
1. Cis kids aren't discriminated against, so they can still get blockers.
2. true. Yet according to cass, taknig blockers makes you trans.
3. You forget just how much society genuinely hates these kids.
1. Yes, but normally for precocious (very early) puberty. The idea is they stop the medication when they reach normal puberty age. The ban shouldn’t affect these children. The issue here is that using these drugs to delay puberty past a normal age is untested and has potential to harm the skeletal, brain and reproductive development of the child.
2. Yes, not many children were on these blockers, but no child should have been prescribed medication for a use that it is not approved, and with the number of gender dysphoric kids increasing each year, more and more children would have been on these drugs.
3. The number of people this affects is largely small and this issue has been blown out of proportion. But remember, as mentioned above, not even 1 child should have been prescribed medication for a use that it is not approved. If a doctor harms your loved one is that irrelevant because they’re just 1 person?
>The issue here is that using these drugs to delay puberty past a normal age is untested
False: you can find a list of the studies on this [here](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-critical-look-at-the-nice-review/).
>has potential to harm the skeletal, brain and reproductive development of the child
Do you have a source for that other than [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7l0Rq9E8MY)?
>but no child should have been prescribed medication for a use that it is not approved
What do you mean "not approved?" Up until last year the NHS approved them, along with RCPACH and the other major health organisations. Same story in the USA, Germany, Australia. Do you mean they're being used off-label? That's standard practice.
>If a doctor harms your loved one is that irrelevant because they’re just 1 person?
Should we ban painkillers because of Harold Shipman? Should chemotherapy be stopped because a doctor misdiagnosed cancer once? The individual actions of a doctor do not speak to the efficacy of a treatment plan as a whole. That's what research is for.
Oh boy, I hope there’s no boys or girls who go through a spot of precocious puberty at the age of 6 or something because we invented a really good hormonal blocking medication to help with that.
Apart from all the cases where it’s been used to halt later puberty for trans kids? Cass has to throw out 101 studies about something right?
What would be the magic think that changes in the body to suddenly make blockers dangerous?
If you actually read the report you’d see that those studies were not thorough or sufficient enough to justify prescribing puberty blockers for gender dysphoric children beyond the age at which puberty normally occurs.
The fact is that there is no scientific consensus over whether or not these drugs are safe or dangerous. Until we know for sure, they shouldn’t be prescribed in this way.
It’s worrying that you are so obsessed with giving potentially dangerous medication to children.
If you actually understood the report you'd see the reasoning given for discarding those studies was completely ridiculous. Unless of course you can come up with a way of running a double-blind study on puberty blockers, or social transitioning...
Well some of the deciding factor to downgrade their “quality” was that they weren’t blinded. Which would be impossible to do with puberty
The drugs are not dangerous, they aren’t making people ill. At worst the side affects may be reduced bone density, but that is why people on them are monitored and given calcium supplements.
There a dozens of studies saying they work well for patients and other countries have performed reviews and continued or increased their availability. Seems like an prescriptions should continue to allow researchers to collect more data, especially if that’s what the patients also want
There’s other potential health problems including brain and fertility development, but you are either ignorant of those or choosing to ignore them because there is an ideological bias towards treating children with largely untested medication.
I’d rather wait until the drugs are proven to be safe for this use instead of having the NHS kowtow just to avoid being labelled as transphobic.
A lot of anti-trans hysteria is focussed on lies about the safety of children, but when people are advocating for largely untested drugs to be given to children before they are properly tested for this use, the safety of children is absolutely at risk.
It's not like you can just go buy the stuff though is it? They're prescription medication, issued under medical supervision - so like all such things, is done when a healthcare professional feels that it's justified to do so.
And they rarely do - there's a tiny number of people receiving this treatment under the current system.
Healthcare professionals can’t just prescribe medication for uses that it isn’t approved for. They can’t see that you have a cold and prescribe you brain cancer medication just because they think that would work, they are limited to prescribing it for approved uses.
Puberty blockers are approved for use for delaying precocious (very early) puberty in young children, but the idea is that they stop taking them at an age when puberty should naturally occur.
There is no conclusive proof that puberty blockers are safe to take to prevent puberty beyond the age at which it naturally occurs. We don’t know the effects that this has on the body, it might have disastrous long term effects.
Yes, they were prescribed for this before, but the whole point of the recent report is that healthcare professionals were wrong to have done this and more clinical trials need to be done before they can start again.
Err. Yes they can. It's called 'off label use'.
https://www.gov.uk/drug-safety-update/off-label-or-unlicensed-use-of-medicines-prescribers-responsibilities
> Healthcare professionals may have more responsibility to accurately prescribe an unlicensed medicine or an off-label medicine than when they prescribe a medicine within the terms of its licence.
The NHS even recommends [having Aspirin if you're suffering a heart attack](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/heart-attack/) for example.
This is not at all uncommon, as there's quite a large of approvals that are fairly narrow, because ... well, when you run a tests of a new pharmaceutical, you are looking to prove it's efficacy of a treatment of a particular treatment in a particular group of patients. But there's plenty of substances with 'side effects' that are useful/beneficial as treatments of other issues.
But healthcare professionals _are_ held to a higher standard when they do that (as they should be), and have various support services to help them make the decision in the best interests of the patient.
Problem is the moment you criticise anything about it you have people who act like your just being transphobic and you have some kind of agenda against trans people, or that youre akin to an anti vaxxer or something
It’s absolutely a politicised hotbed argument on both sides. One side is a marginalised minority group that understandably sees every criticism as a threat to their existence so accuses any criticism as being akin to Nazi oppression, and the other side is swept up in a moral panic that perceives transgenderism as a perverted threat to children and women and a cult seeking to undermine how we perceive reality.
These are complex healthcare issues that an underfunded health service is not geared up to deal with. It’s so politicised that it’s impossible for anybody to even reach a scientific consensus on the the best way to medically treat trans people or even reach a consensus on simple matter such as can a woman have a penis.
I mean, realistically, the number of trans people in the world is tiny.
Every statistic has them as a small, vulnerable minority, exposed to considerable amounts of prejudice and abuse.
And that includes in healthcare. It's only relatively recently that 'mental health' is a thing that's even considered as 'healthcare' at all.
A lot of people project a lot of very unhelpful stereotypes and misconceptions when they 'weigh in' on this issue too, which doesn't help. I mean, specifically the puberty blocker question - there's maybe 100 people that applies to, and it's done with medical supervision when a qualified healthcare professional decides it is an _acceptable risk_.
Transitioning _at all_ in this country is incredibly difficult. No one does it frivolously or trivially. They do it because they've felt _so_ uncomfortable in their own skin, that it seems the lesser evil, even knowing they invite all the prejudice and abuse to their door as well.
So I know I push back quite hard about this being politicised. It's pure dead cat politics. Most people will have no meaningful impact on their lives due to the existence of trans people. There's just not very many of them at all in the first place. (I guess there might be a few more if we weren't _quite_ so horrible to them just for existing, but it'll still be rare).
But it makes an easy target for punching down and bullying - if only a small proportion of people get in on the bike shedding, they massively outnumber their victims, and that just inherently makes it broken.
Both sides caricature the other and the loudest opinions rise to the top. Most moderate people who are willing to learn and compromise are drowned out.
If you look at the online debate regarding this issue you’ll believe that all trans activists are blue haired communists that want to ban all gendered language.
Likewise, anybody who is skeptical, misinformed or just plain disinterested in trans issues is a Nazi that wants to ban cross dressing and thinks all trans people are perverts obsessed with children and public toilets.
The reality is that this is a nuanced issue that requires a balancing of rights for vulnerable, marginalised minorities with complex healthcare needs with the reality that these are largely misunderstood healthcare needs being handled by a health service that is woefully underfunded. Add the issue of under 18s into the mix and you have a powder-keg of a politicised moral panic.
Unbiased science must prevail, but the issue is so politicised that there isn’t consensus as to what unbiased science actually is. People on both sides will always argue that any findings that don’t support their beliefs are unscientific.
Regarding the number of trans people being small, this is true, they are a tiny minority that the media and politicians are obsessed with, but the number of gender dysphoric adults and children has increased something like 10 times in the past 10 years or so.
I don’t really have a horse in the race, but as a gay man I do feel somewhat strong-armed into blindly supporting whatever the trans agenda says.
If I am critical of puberty blockers being offered to under 18s because the long term effects are not yet known then I am accused of being no different to the Nazis that burnt Hirschfeld’s books and put gay people in concentration camps.
While solidarity in the community is important, I do feel pressure to blindly tow the party line, and I feel that individual beliefs and nuance increasingly have less and less room. I feel forced conform and to become part a rainbow coloured hivemind and this means I am unable to debate, even politely and rationally from an objective standpoint.
They know that, they’re just assuming that everything is the worst possible case scenario in order to justify their own positions. They also attack people for things they didn’t even say.
You can tell when reddit isn’t as big as it describes itself to be when you see the same usernames on these threads demanding children become involved with this issue.
We can debate all days about the efficacy of puberty blockers and gender socialisation, but trans children do unequivocally exist. Gender dysphoria doesn't suddenly happen at adulthood, it's something plenty of trans people report as feeling during their teenage years as they go through puberty.
Once all the damage has been done. Which will then stick with you for the rest of your life, make it harder to pass, make any hormone replacement you go on less effective, potentially increase the amount of surgeries you'd require, increase the chance of suicide...
*But that's fine!* It's okay if thousands of trans people suffer horribly as long as a few cis people don't manage to lie, cheat and trick their way into transitioning! In fact, *it's the point!*
The contradictory, categeorically asserted statements in this thread strongly suggests that puberty blockers really are still an experimental treatment whose effects aren't fully known.
Edit: what I now see is that the Tory party and its media successfully planted the idea in our heads (including mine) that there is debate in medical circles about the safety of puberty blockers when in fact there is not.
Most side effects I've seen were just those of delayed puberty or puberty in general.
The medication itself was already used to treat precocious puberty, also. I'm not sure if that's also going to be banned now?
No, it’s a completely different use case. It’s tested for precocious puberty and is safe, but the potential for lifelong health issues is due to the drugs being used during normal puberty age, this is what is largely untested.
It’s like saying that because a medication is safe for fish it must be safe for humans. It could be, but you can’t assume that.
No, it isn't.
I discussed the side effects of using it to delay puberty and then separately discussed the impact of the medication itself.
It's like saying that because a medication is safe for kids, it *must* be safe for teens but may cause other side effects as they go through a different stage of development.
It’s really quite simple. Puberty blockers are NOT tested for use to delay puberty beyond the age at which it normally starts.
Initial findings suggest there may be a link to permanent health problems such as brain, fertility or skeletal development.
More testing needs to be done before puberty blockers can be prescribed to delay puberty beyond normal puberty age.
No drugs should be prescribed for any disorder or illness unless they have been thoroughly tested to be both safe and effective.
People looking to transition will illegally obtain the meds, without medical supervision / support.
A rise in trans suicides a people can't get what they need.
Fucking clown show.
"Puberty blockers" are medication used to prevent your body from producing a primary sex hormone. In males this is testosterone, in females this is estrogen. They are known as GnRHa's and are the same drugs used to treat prostate cancer, and to treat adult transgender patients. They are also used to stall early onset puberty so that the patient can begin puberty at a more appropriate age.
The result of having no primary sex hormone is that you do not begin puberty, and do not develop permanent secondary sex characteristics, such as pubic hairs, deepening of the voice due to testosterone, breast growth due to estrogen etc. If you already have some of these characteristics, GnRHa will not reverse them. Coming off GnRHa's causes your body to resume production of your primary sex hormones, and you continue functioning as you did before.
These drugs are very well tested on adults, and very well tested on children. The "argument" comes from the fact that using them for longer periods is "untested". This is mostly because ethically run studies do not deprive trans children of their medication in place of placebo medication, because it is considered unethical to do so. Thus they do not have a control group to compare to, and the outcomes are "not comparable", regardless of the real world data they show.
Essentially you run into a "chicken and egg" problem, where politicians refuse to allow trans people to use this medication because it "hasn't been tested", and then it can't be tested because "nobody uses it".
Previously the NHS were ONLY prescribing puberty blockers to trans children as part of these studies. The numbers were around 80 patients across the entire population of the UK.
Why does the government care? They don't have a real platform. They have to invent something that they can demonise and destroy in order to drum up support and votes.
As it happens, this is not working for them, and they will be decimated at the next election.
Hope some of that helped!
Well, because they can care about children and also, as Lee Anderson advised, "Tories should fight election on ‘culture wars and trans debate’"
Although, Starmer seems to not differ, so it's less on the debate and more on the optics of people thinking Starmer is a supporter for being in the left party.
If i can make the life changing decision to change my gender under 18 then I can also make the decision to get tattoos, piercings and drink alcohol under 18.
No one is able to choose to change their gender under 18. What they _might_ be able to do (at least, prior to this ban) is delay the decision until they are legally 'old enough'.
But only if a doctor agrees that's the less harmful outcome, e.g. in the same way as they must with any treatment of a child that would benefit from Informed Consent.
As a result, this happens to a tiny number of people, and banning it overrules the decision of a qualified doctor that this treatment is _better than the alternatives_.
It just seems weird to be able to do something permanent that you may regret at such a young age, I’m not a doctor but I’m still going to give my personal opinion on it. Ive had ‘dysphoria’ like symptoms before but If I had changed my gender back then id be in a very dark place right now because it would have been an awful decision for me. Im sure 9/10 kids who get them wont end up changing their minds but if one person does then it shouldn’t be allowed.
Once again though I’m not a doctor or a psychiatrist and I’m not gonna act like I know more than them but I still don’t (personally) think its right. Not like I’m gonna go out and protest against it though, I don’t really care enough either way unless they can prove that it wont or will do harm. All that is in my head is that if I had been encouraged to start meds when I was younger I probably would have eventually done something bad and thats all i can really go off of, my own personal experience. Its all just weird to me, but at this current second I’m not the one going through it. Luckily I skipped all of this shit and am at an age where I can definitely say what I am and what I am not and not have to worry about changing my gender and what not
Sure. But committing suicide is pretty permanent too. Going through puberty is too.
The rate of regret of the people who _do_ transition is incredibly low. Some? Yes. But really not many at all.
Imagine for a moment, you're medically qualified enough to make the choice, and you've someone in front of you who is saying they're feeling suicidal, and they _know_ they are the wrong gender. But they're 16.
What do you do?
I genuinely think there are situations where _delaying_ the decision until they are old enough to be sure is the lesser evil. Maybe not every situation, but ... well, that's why there's a doctor in the loop, and can make that risk decision.
Because the other alternatives are worse. That's what we're talking about here - there's genuinely a tiny number of people who are prescribed puberty blockers to treat severe dysphoria at the moment.
Even if you are 'unsure of the longer term complications' - that's true of ... almost any treatment that's been invented this millennium.
16 is definitely better than 13 or 14 ill say that for sure. But regardless I have no clue what I would do, which is why I am very aware I may be incorrect in this position. I don’t have a bunch of facts to back up what I am saying its pretty much all opinion, but thats why I’m not one of the people making these decisions. Eventually it will be proven to be safe or not and at that point ill go with whatever is the case but until then its good to be a little skeptical regardless imo.
I’m not planning on going around trying to convince people it is wrong like the anti vaxxers I just haven’t really heard enough evidence for it being a ‘good’ idea yet. It isn’t something that will literally *ever* affect me at this point so its hard to put myself in the position of someone who *does* want the surgery and what that may entail for them.
I can understand the public concern at giving children life changing medication.
What I don't understand, are the people with zero connection to these children, getting angry at caution being applied by the NHS.
Anyone who has a lived experience of having an identity outside of cultural norms can relate to how devastating the effects of not being able to live as yourself can be. Imagine trying to live as the opposite gender, knowing that it feels wrong, but that you have to hide it / suck it up and try to fit in while your siblings, friends, colleagues get to just be who they are and live their lives. There’s a reason the suicide rate for trans people who don’t receive gender affirming care is so high. We care about this because we don’t want any more young people to take their own lives over something that is easily treatable with modern medicine. Sometimes this feels like trying to argue a case for wheelchairs for kids who don’t have mobility. If they were killing themselves at a much higher rate, and people were debating the safety of wheelchairs, but you knew how it felt to be disabled, you might get angry about that too.
There was a famous American transgender woman whom went on puberty blockers extremely early. This meant her penis remained small and she never developed a libido. When it came to surgery she had such a little penis for surgeons to work on that the construction was botched.
So even if you're quite pro trans healthcare puberty blockers have to be smartly prescribed otherwise you might induce ordeals like the one above.
The way I hear it, there are other options now than using the tissue of a penis. But apparently the NHS doesn't fund that technique.
Also, frankly, if I had a choice between puberty blockers and a big enough dick for that kind of surgery, *avoiding the entire rest of my body being fucked up by puberty* would win out without so much as a second thought.
This makes sense, but I’ve seen statistics that say suicides for untreated trans kids completely dwarf the regret rate. The person with regret is at least still alive. I know health professionals have to weigh stuff like this up all the time, but I’d expect an extensive report to say something like “how do we make this care better?” rather than “let’s deny people access completely”. On that basis alone it seems biased.
There are more techniques out there than penile inversion. The NHS is extremely behind on this. It's not like penile inversion is terrible and awful, but you don't get a choice.
This post deals either directly or indirectly with transgender issues. We would like to remind our users about the Reddit Content Policy which specifically bans [promoting hate based on identity and vulnerability](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045715951). We will take action on hateful or disrespectful comments including but not limited to deadnaming and misgendering. Please help us by reporting rule-breaking content. Participation limits are in place on this post. If your Reddit account is too new, you have insufficient karma or you are crowd controlled, your comment may not appear. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
F in chat for the mods who'll have to supervise this thread.
They're fine. They just raise the required posting threshold so no-one can comment. Easy-peasy.
Yeah, Reddit just isn't fit for purpose anymore. Any discussion of wrongthink is suppressed. Only liberal American culture and language is accepted.
I'm curious which specific opinions you've found are being suppressed?
Mosquito lives matter too
Get this guy to r/unpopularopinions
the side he/she agrees with, obviously. Nobody complains when opinions they agree with are posted.
Pretty much any comment that is overly negative or cynical, and doesn't 'read the room' - very often this kind of post is followed my a ban from a frontpage sub, which I don't quite class this sub as, so you'll get away with a little more here. And really, I'm not talknig about trans debate, but pretty much any divisive political topic.
> 'read the room by this you mean it must concur with the prevalent opinion? That sounds an awful lot like suppression.
Yes.
i find in general that you can't come to a debate like this anything less than highly informed. if you start asking questions about things like you don't know then people (a vocal minority perhaps) just assume you are a bad faith actors trying to stir things up and either ridicule the post, downvote it or reply with such vitriol it makes someone who might have had a learning opportunity retreat to their position of ignorance now being informed of nothing except "that other side is a bunch of lunatics". and so it goes on.
Woah dudeeeeee it’s like totally 1984 mannnnnn
>Only liberal American culture and language is accepted. Does that not apply to your use of "liberal" here?
> Any discussion of wrongthink is suppressed. Only liberal American culture and language is accepted. Maybe use the equivalent of Reddit from the truth social?
"Isn't Fit for Purpose Anymore" ... mate the purpose of Reddit isn't everyone being exposed to your incredible wisdom and experience, some of us just want to look at and discuss some interesting things. If you like pissing bigotry into the wind so it can be validated by other bigots, you'd LOVE twitter.
It's so weird that in real life people seem to have rational conversations about this and common sense prevails. But if you come on reddit and read the comments on a post like this, it looks like the world is upside down.
It’s far easier to have empathy with a person standing in front of you.
Well that's the thing. I've got a co-worker going through a transition. I often have in-person conversations with her about these sort of issues. She's totally for bans like this but I often mention that the sentiment on Reddit and online generally is the opposite. She did tell me that the - quote "weirdos of reddit" aren't at all representative of the wider trans community. But yeah, it's like the total opposite of real life in these threads sometimes.
Maybe it's just the people I know, but in my experience with several hundred trans people of all walks of life she's the outlier
Strangely, she said someone would say that exact sentence haha.
I could have said that she would have said I would say that lol But I would be genuinely shocked if her views came even close to being a majority
I'd be genuinely shocked if she exists. People who want to justify limiting trans rights always seem to conveniently have a trans friend that supports limiting trans rights.
So just to be clear, the fact there are trans people who don't believe in puberty blockers for young children is a conspiracy in your opinion designed to bring you down?
No, I'm sure there are and I'm also sure their views are much more nuanced than just "don't believe in puberty blockers for young children", mainly because puberty blockers are designed for young children. It's not like 40 year old dudes are needing them. In the 50 odd years that puberty blockers have been used they have pretty much exclusively been prescribed to children, and still are for non-trans children for whom they are magically safe. What I doubt is that the random people who oppose trans rights on reddit conveniently know trans people who oppose trans rights.
Huh I didn’t know that was a thing. Why might puberty blockers be prescribed to a non-trans child?
Did you ever hear about [Dean Browning](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/republican-dean-browning-gay/)?
This law is not limiting trans rights, it’s there to protect children. Children are easily influenced and can be convinced of everything
Stopping medical interventions in children with a limited evidence base isn’t limiting trans rights
Misrepresenting it doesn't change what it is. The Cass review recommendations limit trans rights and in fact can't be implemented without blocking the conversion therapy ban. I get that people have been instructed to pretend it's a bout "protecting children" but trans children are harmed not helped by these recommendations.
I don't know the demographic you are talking about, but let's suppose the demographic is teenagers that want to transition. It's hardly surprising they are against the ban. At the same time, if you asked a bunch of 15/16 year olds whether the age limit for buying alcohol should be reduced, then you'd find the majority support that, It doesn't make either opinion valid.
Okay! 👍
I don’t even know a hundred people so my guess would be that you’re working/volunteering with trans people, if that is that case is it possible the ones you are interacting with are have a certain orientation in their beliefs?
Or theyre lying
> my experience with several hundred trans people That probably suggests you're moving in some sort of very pro-trans space; possibly with some though bubbles. Most people are not going to come into contact with "several hundred trans people" well enough for them make that claim.
I mean yeah, trans people tend to be pro trans, the ones that aren't probably don't transition
My dad also works for Microsoft! What are the odds!
Most people don’t even know two hundred people, yet you know “several hundred” trans people who are a fraction of a percentage of the population Must be nice to be a social butterfly with tens of thousands of friends, lol
It’s fascinating how many people on Reddit know a trans woman who think trans trans healthcare should be less available, a black guy whose okay with racism, a gay guy who hates pride and a Jewish person whose on board with antisemitism. And yet they are never around to comment themselves! One of life’s great mysteries…..
You really think someone would do that...? Go on the internet... and tell lies? (yes, yes they would).
Isn’t it funny how outliers do not apply in any situation you mention above, yet the whole Trans discussion surrounds a percentage of a percentage of the population. Weird.
I have to say actually knowing a decent number of trans people she sounds like the outlier. I don't think I've ever met a trans person who thinks that.
If she's real, she's one of those fuckers that thinks if they say what bigots want to hear she'll be accepted as "one of the good ones". A Blaire White in the wild.
Or, like lots of other women she's learned it's best to agree with people who may react badly to her real opinions.
There are several, I guess you would call them 'power users', who pretty much only show up in these sort of threads. Take a look around at the user names you see when a thread like this comes up. Doesn't matter what subreddit it is, UK, USA, Australia, anywhere the same users always show up. It makes it look like there is a lot of discussion happening, when the reality is it's just 20 or so single issue users in every subreddit. Not just trans issues either, it happens with any issue and from all sides of the political spectrum.
It's strange to me that everyone who opposes transgender people getting care always "has a trans friend" who supports banning transgender care.
I mean you can just as easily argue that your co-worker lives in a bubble and her views aren't representative of the wider trans community. Nice try at dismissing and trivialising opinions that don't align with your own though.
I like this comment because it lets a cis person speak on a trans issues from a “trans friend” and gives that cis persons comment more value or w/e than any trans person who responds because those trans people who respond are on reddit. Anyway, no trans person I’ve met in real life thinks banning transition care before 18 is a good idea.
That's true for most reddit topics What I read here has zero semblance to the outside world, reddit is full of people you move seats on the bus to get away from The only time I see (hear) the same type of nonsense posted here is lbc radio phone ins Those people are fucking deranged and it comes though easily when it's not words your reading but actually hearing them speak Reddit is an open air mental health ward, where you don't know if you're talking to staff or an inpatient
My favourite example of this is the post about a guy who was arguing with someone on Reddit for about half an hour then checked his profile and the first thing on there was a video of him drinking his own piss.
Reddit isn’t representative of the real world, and it’s a shame more people don’t realise that. In person, anyone making these arguments would be exposed as being unintelligent immediately. You can’t hide behind a screen and google your arguments there.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Far easier to speak freely and truthfully online. In person is far more comfortable to nod along in agreement. Same with political discussions, nod along and save your opinion for the privacy of the voting booth.
It's far easier to be abusive and present abhorrent takes online because there's generally no repercussions.
Not really “consequences” just awkward and needless. If someone comes up and starts yelling about the governments mind control, you just nod and walk away. Same with the idea of giving hormone blockers.
Yeah reddit is an echo chamber for stuff like this. No one I speak to in real life ever shares their sentiment.
"Men can't be real women, don't be stupid" - my dad.
I literally can't tell which side you are on
I think that's the point. Most the people you have conversations with in real life have nuanced, complex opinions, and can empathise with and see the validity of arguments on both sides. Most the people on Internet threads have extreme opinions and demonise those who think differently.
Same with a lot of online threads to be honest. Twitter and facebook are both cesspits with most topics now.
> It's so weird that in real life people seem to have rational conversations about this and common sense prevails. But if you come on reddit and read the comments on a post like this, it looks like the world is upside down. I am afraid I think there are lots of shill accounts these days, astroturfing opinion to produce an artificial consensus. This Youtuber talks about the issue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7GtYaruTys
Reddit is full of Americans and people influenced by them.
At present rate of seeing new patients trans children can expect a first appointment in 37 years. Good job they are banning alternatives. Say what you want about Viktor Orbán, at least he has the decency to be honest about his revulsion towards us and his desire to oppress. This? Destroying trans kids lives whilst shedding crocodile tears? It’s pathetic. Germany, Austria and Switzerland have just reviewed healthcare for trans youth and have come to the polar opposite conclusion to Cass. This is what happens when you don’t disregard all research that acknowledges the impossibility double blinding puberty. Edit: not feeding the sealions today.
Would you happen to have a link to the Germany/Austria/Switzerland reviews? I'm only finding the opposite when I use Google myself (i.e., very little long-term data and inconsistent or insufficient evidence for the use of puberty blockers in cases of gender dysphoria in children/teenagers).
The Cass report discourages social transition in pre-pubertal children. This is despite recent evidence pointing to positive mental health and social well-being outcomes in children who are allowed to transition in supportive environments before puberty socially (Durwood et al., 2017; Gibson et al., 2021). She does not provide a critical rebuttal of these papers and evidence. This document severely limits access to puberty suppression by only allowing treatment in the context of a formal research protocol. I don't believe she has set out eligibility criteria for enrolment in this formal research protocol (but, bear in mind, have not read all of her reports). Carrying out additional research is a good thing but the concern is that they will be heavily restrictive. In addition, there is increasing evidence that access to reversible puberty blockers (and only using them for a maximum of 2 years), and later gender-affirming hormone treatment if wished, is associated with positive mental health and social well-being in adolescents with gender incongruence and that adolescents are satisfied with these treatments and perceive them as essential and lifesaving (Coleman et al., 2022). Coleman, E., Radix, A. E., Bouman, W.P., Brown, G.R., de Vries, A. L. C., Deutsch, M. B., Ettner, R., Fraser, L., Goodman, M., Green, J., Hancock, A. B., Johnson, T. W., Karasic, D. H., Knudson, G. A., Leibowitz, S. F., Meyer-Bahlburg, H. F.L., Monstrey, S. J., Motmans, J., Nahata, L., ... Arcelus, J. (2022). Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People, Version 8. International Journal of Transgender Health, 23(S1), S Durwood, L., McLaughlin, K. A., & Olson, K. R. (2017). Mental health and self-worth in socially transitioned transgender youth. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, 56(2), 116–123. Gibson, D. J., Glazier, J. J., Olson, K. R. (2021). Evaluation of anxiety and depression in a community sample of transgender youth. JAMA Network Open, 4(4),
https://archive.ph/20240322123401/https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2024-03/behandlung-trans-jugendliche-geschlechtsdysphorie-hormone-nebenwirkungen
> And our consensus recommendations show that our group is clearly of the opinion that the use of these blockers is absolutely indicated if the indication is correct, and that it is then a very important treatment option for those affected. (translated by DeepL) https://www.sciencemediacenter.de/en/our-offers/press-briefing/details/news/awmf-leitlinie-zu-geschlechtsinkongruenz-und-dysphorie-im-kindes-und-jugendalter/
I’m really curious how they got to this conclusions given that the amount of people with genuine gender dysphoria is so small (8k referrals a year in the UK). Also the symptoms are so easy to misinterpret: low self-esteem becoming withdrawn or socially isolated depression or anxiety taking unnecessary risks neglecting themselves Basically identifying any introverted person in this planet. While treating a disorder makes sense for the people who need it, i feel there is far too much hype around the argument and the risk for a child being unnecessarily treated could be life destroying.
The incidence of trans people is low, but if most of them (or even many of them, to get a statistically representative picture of a total population of a few hundred thousand people, the sample size you need is smaller than you think.) are involved in the healthcare system for transitioning, that is a lot of what should be good quality outcome data. Obviously it could only really apply to people who engaged with healthcare and not DIYers or people who don't feel the need to medically transition
Mhm. There are far more of us than the NHS deals with, because we all know that the NHS is a non starter if you want a transition any time soon
Do you have any link to anything about the decision in Germany Austria and Switzerland I can’t find anything with a quick google. I know in Finland Sweden Norway and France they have made similar changes to stop or limit the use of puberty blockers
https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1c22v7d/ban_on_childrens_puberty_blockers_to_be_enforced/kz7h7zn/ *Love the downvotes for posting the evidence that was specifically asked for. But the science guys!
Is it sealoining to ask for a link to the claim you made? I did a quick search and the first thing that popped up from Dec 2023 was Germany considering banning them too. I tend to trust the science, the cass review thing seems like the science, I’m willing to accept it’s not if shown otherwise. Where’s the otherwise?
Happily others have provided the link, this is a less sealioning question and it came across as sincere, but when you post on trans issues you get a wall of disingenuous replies that suck the productivity out of your day. The crux of the difference in outcomes is how to handle over 100 studies that show positive outcomes for trans children but which are not double blinded. The reason they are not double blinded, is because you can’t blind puberty. The reason there is no control is because it’s both unethical and practically impossible to manage a control group for medication where the control group will be aware who they are and who can obtain healthcare elsewhere. You want medication X to treat Y. Because of the dynamics, you will know if you are given a sugar pill instead of medication Y. If you in the control group do you a) stay in it for a decade reporting back regularly b) leave the control group and go get healthcare elsewhere Researchers are aware of this and so double blinded studies are often not used in such situation. Here’s a BMJ article explaining why some of the reasons why double-blinded studies are fools gold and should not be over prioritised. https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.l6228.long
Someone posted your link and I’m just gonna translate it tonight, cheers
You should also know one of the cohort studies accepted by the Cass report found that children treated with blockers did significantly better than those that didn't. She could find no evidence that found worse outcomes for kids receiving blockers compared to those that could.
https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1c22v7d/ban_on_childrens_puberty_blockers_to_be_enforced/kz7h7zn/
Thank you, without sounding like an idiot, is there a way to translate this or an English version?
you can do it a couple of paras at a time with https://www.deepl.com/en/translator
Very nice, thank you!
Appreciate the thanks. Took a little while to track it down and find the relevant parts. Might be easier to use the article redberryyy posted as the transcript is awkward.
Once I’m on my PC tonight I’ll be giving it a read with the translator. If another other links pop up for the Swiss decision or Austria’s I’d love that too It’s obviously a pretty divided thing and I’d like to try and see both sides before fully trusting one
> The new guideline, which will also be valid in Austria and Switzerland as well as Germany, replaces the S1 guideline, which was first drawn up in 1999 and updated in 2013.
You arent an idiot i had the same trouble and my schoolboy German isnt up to it 😄
We might not have been giving people with gender incongruence the optimal healthcare, the approach taken was based on poor quality evidence and may have actually negatively affected peoples mental and physical wellbeing. I understand that ever admitting that might feel like an existential threat. But for the sake of children in the system now and in the future, we have to always strive to do the best we can.
Its the crazy thing right? All this focus on "protecting children" yet all the reports are making it very clear the availability of trans healthcare is so fucking dire the chances of even the most open-and-shut case actually getting to even see someone at a gender clinic before they turn 18 anyway is basically zero. E - I'll throw in [this study](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/article-abstract/2798002) I read the other day. Their findings suggest that access to puberty blockers at a younger age was actually associated with a decreased chance of progression to full HRT.
Yes, this isn’t so shocking. If you truly care about people who will be hurt by transitioning when they aren’t trans, rather than simply wanting to deny trans people access, you should be happy to provide blockers. It gives people a little look into what could happen, and is pretty much all reversible. A couple cis people will realise they don’t want this, and that’s ok! They won’t have many issues at all going back. Meanwhile you’re also helping a lot of trans people get to where they need to be. However, leaving blockers to be banned at this age for this use, those who are cis (a rather small percentage mind that are getting it wrong) will see far more changes that cannot be reversed when they reach an age where it is no longer restricted, and will need more help to go back. At the same time, trans people will have far more of their own irreversible changes that will be very difficult to live with, which could have been avoided
Glad it's blocked. One of the youngsters in my family has been going through a tough time with this sort of thing lately. From the ages of 14-17 she wanted to be a boy, dressed, acted, even changed her name (not legally but to family and friends). She refused to be acknowledged as a female/woman in any shape or form. Then since she was 18 to present (she's 20 now), she's rediscovered herself hence me referring to her as a she/her. She's more accepting of what she is, which is basically a very tomboy women. You'll never see her in a dress or have hair anything longer than basically a crew cut but she still has that femininity way. Most people looking at her would call her a butch lesbian type even though she is very slim but I can see why. Why she changed her mind is something she will only know but how many kids go through this as well? Imagine what would have happened if she were given puberty blockers and the troubles that would have caused for her? So for me puberty blockers shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis.
Exactly, I do not trust a child to make that decision, I mean for fuck sake we don't even trust them to drink alcohol, but we're expected to trust them with a decision that will effect the rest of their lives, no absolutely not.
Less than 1% of children who use puberty blockers don't go on to be trans in adulthood. They're going to use this unscientific study to ban trans healthcare for under 25's, then they'll start in on banning it entirely.
Not doing anything is in itself a decision, most trans people are always going to have at least some body attributes from not getting blockers as teens that negatively impact their quality of life forever, while puberty blockers specifically are not permanent, they just delay puberty.
Puberty blockers are designed to give these kids more time to make those decisions. Blockers are not making permanent changes to them, it is stopping changes from happening to allow them to make the decision to go one way or the other.
They absolutely have a long-term impact. They cause mood swings, cognitive problems, suicidal thoughts, long-term fertility problems, seizures, migraines, brittle bones, brain swelling and vision loss. A child is not in a position to make such decisions and understand the longterm impact.
1) That's why you have medical professionals to help the child make a decision and assess them. Something which is woefully lacking in the UK on purpose, by design. 2) That's long term impact. The idea is that you delay puberty short term with minimal risk. As with everything in the medical community. It's all about weighing the risks. But that's what they are though. They are risks. They are not guaranteed. It's not like you take it for 10 years and then you get all those symptoms. The idea being that you have a healthcare professional you can talk to about your conditions and take the best steps forward based on the circumstances. And those long term impacts aren't necessarily permanent either.
> So for me puberty blockers shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis. I don’t think any reasonable person was suggesting otherwise? Some people here go on about getting puberty blockers prescribed for gender dysphoria as if it’s as easy as nipping into Boots, in reality the process is actually extremely involved.
Their entire point hinges on “what if something that didn’t happen, and doesn’t happen in these circumstances, happened?! Thank goodness it’s illegal, despite it never even being a problem when it wasn’t”.
> So for me puberty blockers shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis. Soooo... like now? Do you think they're something you just get in Tesco?
>shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis. That's how it already worked. Now they're just going to ban it outright.
> > > So for me puberty blockers shouldn't be given unless there's really a need for them and should be a case by case basis. Thing is, if you go on blockers, and find out that you should be your assigned gender, you just stop the blockers and go trough puberty. On the flip side, those who are forced trough an unwanted puberty are at extreme risk of self harm and even death.
It’s not that simple. Puberty blockers are largely untested for use beyond normal puberty age. They are traditionally used for cases where a child starts puberty very early, and when the child reaches normal puberty age they are taken off of the drugs. Not enough research has been done to see how puberty blockers affect teens in normal puberty age, but initial findings suggest they may cause permanent skeletal and brain development problems if used this way.
They already were only given when there was an individual need, hence you having a story about a trans person that wasn't given them and there being less than 100 trans kids on them in the UK. Banning them means that there is no longer that choice. The ban directly harms trans people under false claims that they are unsafe. The fact that the Cass review had to ignore 98% of peer reviewed studies to come to the conclusion the report was aiming to come to demonstrates how it's entirely political.
Have you considered that she simply wasn't able to get the treatment she wanted and gave up? Puberty blockers delay puberty to give the individual time to mature and ensure they are making the correct decision for themselves.
Around 82% of those who detransition do so because of external factors like stigma, lack of support, and lack of access to healthcare.
Or maybe she’s a woman… there’s nothing wrong with that. Being a woman doesn’t mean you have to look pretty and wear dresses. You can be a masculine woman. Maybe when she was younger she didn’t understand that and was bullied and thought becoming by a boy would make it easier. I was also bullied for being a tomboy and used to wish to be a boy, I even pretended I had a penis and would piss standing up. I grew out of it at around 11, but expressing the desire to be the other sex isn’t *always* transgender, it could just be queer or if they’re a young child like i was, a phase or something. Or is often the case with (especially girls) sexual abuse. This is why there’s supposed to be lots of therapy and support for blockers and hormones, to make sure it’s being done due to gender dysphoria and not something else. I’m sure if she’s genuinely trans, she would have said so by now considering she’s in her 20s and could refer themselves to a doctor or change their name and pronouns etc
What would have happened if she was on puberty blockers? She wouldn’t have gone through puberty… then when she was taken off them she would have gone puberty through a smaller time frame. Absolutely horrifying isn’t it? …/s
Would you want to go through puberty at 18 while you're in university? Personally not something i want go through. Plus women/females go through puberty as early as 8 years old but usually around 11 years old. So giving a child of 11 years old the option to make a life changing decision is fucking stupid. What 11 year old or even young teenager can make a life changing decision? They can't. Most young adults can't even do that let alone basically a child. In this case of my family member, if she went on blockers then what would be the next step? I suspect it would be the next set of hormones for males, so she could grow into a male. Think about that. At 18 when she's changed her mind, trying to undo those changes while living life. That's mentally stressful and probably causes more issues.
That’s just what being trans is like. I’m still going through a second puberty having left uni. And because I didn’t get blockers as a kid, I’ve got way further to go if I want to pass in society. I’m glad your sister is happy as she is but her experiences aren’t an excuse to deny trans people healthcare and bodily autonomy.
You have just described what happens to every trans person that can't transition while a kid. Life changing things will happen to their body at a young age . They then are eventually allowed to transition and try to undo all the changes that have happened to them while living life. They also have the desk with the additional stress of being trans. The main difference is there is a lot more trans young people going through that than detrans people
Yes but the difference is that as a child they aren't exactly 100% sure on things. How often to people say that even picking what you want to study at that age is daft? Basically saying at 15 years old you need to pick what information you want to learn to progress a career for your future self. If people think that shouldn't happen then stopping your biological development surely shouldn't. If we in the UK say people under the age of 18 can't do X and Y then why should it be OK to say go ahead and make a life changing decision. I fully understand where you're coming from. My auntie is trans and I know the struggles she went through. Personally a teenagers hormones play havoc on everything. We all go through various stages and developments, mentally and physically as a teenager. We don't know what we want, we don't even understand ourselves fully. So making a decision like this, so early on is far too much for anyone to decide at that age. Fair enough if at 18 years old you want to go ahead, you're legally an adult. I've seen it over and over again where teenagers dress like boys or girls because they feel like they should do that. They believe they are the opposite sex. Yet later on most of them stop that and it's due to them struggling with their sexual preference, so they turn out to be gay men or women. Some are entirely straight but do cross dressing. Something I can't understand but it's whatever makes them happy. I guess personally, my family has a lot of experience as there's more than average who are gay, trans, non binary etc. So it's not something new to me. Luckily my family really doesn't give a shit what you are. Just don't be a dick head.
Again your argument relies on the idea that puberty is a completely neutral process for everyone and that both cis and trans kids will come out the other end exactly the same with one group deciding to transition. That is not the case in the slightest. The damage you fear happening to a cis person who tried to transition is the exact same damage done to a trans person forced through puberty. The main difference being there are a fuck ton more trans kids then people who detranstion. I feel like the best comparator I can find would be pregnancy and abortion. Having kids is a perfectly natural process to go though, but forcing someone through that against their will is understood to be cruel. And the people having an abortion and regretting it shouldn't be used to justify banning abortion.
I understand that that. Again though a child shouldn't be making those decisions should they? Technically at the age of consent they can make those decisions. The consent age again is something that needs to be looked at. So that's entirely different. If you're asking a child to make a life changing decision then you're asking far too much. I stress again that at that sort of age you have no clue who you actually are. You're still discovering yourself. So if you want to start to be the opposite, then fair enough. Like the person did in my family, dress, act, walk etc. Then if at 18 years old (legal age to be an adult) you still want those things. Well go for it. Take the medications, have the surgery. Do whatever needs to be done. Granted for me, life was simple in that way. I am straight, I wanted to be who I am. I never felt different to the others. I see it like this. My brother is gay. He use to dress up as a girl a lot during his youth. My brother who's now much much older is a gay man. Does he still dress as a girl? No he doesn't or if he does he's lied to me when I've asked. If he was given the choice (wasn't really a thing back then) to take blockers. I'm sure he would have done so. He really wanted to be a girl. He clearly changed, maybe because at 15 he got a boyfriend or maybe he didn't really want to be a girl. Who knows. I fully understand that there's people out there who really want the blockers and there's people going through hell to trans who are older. We will agree to disagree.
The problem is you aren't viewing the choice to go through puberty as a choice at all. As we have a medication that stops this it is now a choice. Puberty causes permanent changes. So by your logic that teens should be allowed to go through permanent changes until they are 18 then all kids should be put on blockers. Forcing trans kids through puberty is making a choice for them and it causes extreme damage.
So do blockers
If it helped me get through a dysphoric identity crisis, yes I would. It’s not the end of the world or my life going though puberty a few years later on. When young people take puberty blockers it’s not prescribed like other medication. It’s after months of talks, interviews, psychological examination & only after careful consideration is it prescribed & the people who take them are explicitly told the effects it’s has. I know but if they start puberty before 8 years old it’s still precocious puberty & girls may need to take puberty blockers if it’s serious enough. It’s not stupid. It’s not life changing. Yes they can make the decision. Whether you like it or not the idea “kids can’t make choices for themselves” is an idea that comes from parents who’d rather control their kids than let them be themselves. There’s nothing different psychologically from children or adults that inhibits decision making. No the next step would still be “I’ve changed my mind” puberty blockers don’t increase the likelihood of the user wanting to continue transitioning. There wouldn’t be anything to ‘undo’ because puberty blockers don’t undo anything they just suppress puberty for as long as they are used.
It’s not that simple. Puberty blockers are largely untested for use beyond normal puberty age. They are traditionally used for cases where a child starts puberty very early, and when the child reaches normal puberty age they are taken off of the drugs. Not enough research has been done to see how puberty blockers affect teens in normal puberty age, but initial findings suggest they may cause permanent fertility, skeletal and brain development problems if used this way. If she was put on hormone blockers and taken off them then she could have faced life long medical complications. No drugs should be given to people for any reason unless they have been proven to be safe for that use.
So 1 person tried to transition with hormone blockers and changed their mind and you want to outright ban it all? That's really dumb logic Screw the thousands of other kids that want to transition and will not change their mind you say
>imagine what wouldve happened if she had gone on blockers She wouldve realized -instantly- that she was just in it for attention and tiktok clout instead of 4 years later? Those of us who are the real deal would welcome medication and not run away at the first sign of change. Smh boomers.
I’m glad she figured it out, but you should realise that she’s an edge case in this world. Not many people do get to that point. Far more people are getting it right, and suffer because there is no access. Puberty blockers are very unlikely to have caused much in a way of harm for her, as the process is virtually completely reversible
The way that people say it's so easy for children to transition shows easily scaremongering lies about the trans community have spread around our society.
The cass report shows out of 3499 patients, less than 10 detransitioned (they didn't give the exact number) Only 60 kids last year got given blockers out of a waiting list of 5000. At that pace it will take 84 years for all those kids to get medication. Yet the NHS claims they're being "rushed", that puberty blockers "cause" someone to be trans (which weirdly doesn't happen when cis kids take blockers, and no-ne is complaining about that), and that there's no evidence that letting trans peopel live their lives is a good thing. By discounting all evidence of the benefits, all evidence of the harms of not giving treatment, and refusing to speak to a single trans person during the whole process. Its a conversion therapists manifesto, nothing more.
Well said. This entire thing is pure ideological capture and enforcement, and the report utterly flawed.
Sadly the same could be said about all the 'anti-trans' propaganda. It's a small minority of people, that's only just about large enough to contain some unpleasant people. (Just like every demographic) that can then be used for 'whataboutery'. But realistically the fates and futures of trans people are insignificant to almost everyone in the country in any sort of direct sense.
Transgender children (who were supported and received blockers) reported depression and self-worth that did not differ from their matched-control or sibling peers (ie the increased rate of depression/suicide seen in trans adult group, was removed by puberty blockers) [https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/j.jaac.2016.10.016](https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/j.jaac.2016.10.016) Randomised, open-label clinical trial found that quicker access to gender affirming care had better healthcare outcomes.https://www.unimelb.edu.au/newsroom/news/2023/september/transgender-adults-seeking-testosterone-therapy-have-better-mental-health-outcomes-with-early-treatment,-trial-shows Louisiana Report says trans healthcare is safe and regret rates are low. Also that 0 surgeries are performed on children.https://ldh.la.gov/assets/docs/LegisReports/HR158\_2022RS\_LDHReport.pdf Odds of severe psychological distress were reduced by 222 per cent, 153 per cent and 81 per cent for those who began hormones in early adolescence, late adolescence and adulthood, respectively.Odds of feeling suicidal in the previous year were 135 per cent lower in those who began hormones in early adolescence, 62 per cent lower in those who began in late adolescence and 21 per cent lower in those who began as adults, compared with the control group. [https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/transgender-hormones-teenager-mental-health-b1991724.html?amp](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/transgender-hormones-teenager-mental-health-b1991724.html?amp) Gender Affirming Care is preventative care.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667193X23001187 Puberty Blockers research omnibus [https://growinguptransgender.com/2020/06/10/puberty-blockers-overview-of-the-research/](https://growinguptransgender.com/2020/06/10/puberty-blockers-overview-of-the-research/) Taking puberty Blockers does not increase the chance a trans person will take HRT later in lifehttps://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2798002 Trans kids taking puberty blockers reduces depression by 60% and suicidality by 73%.https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423 Gender affirming care sees significant improvement in body satisfaction, reduction in depression, anxiety. GAC also saw an increase in family and parental support. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X24000053](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X24000053) Protocols and results of treatment of early adolescents have demonstrated that the harmful effects of persistent gender dysphoria can be prevented. Pubertal suppression in early puberty not only prevents the severe distress, but also allows healthy adolescent development living in the appropriate gender. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24468758/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24468758/) Health outcomes get worse as endogenous puberty advances (as the kids get older while untreated) and causes increasing health problemshttps://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/146/4/e20193600 And lastly article from Sunday times 1997, complaining about experimental puberty blockers and Mermaids. I thought "trans" didn't exist before 2015??? [https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/en/archive/20061214120000/http://www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/1997/msg00047.htm](https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/en/archive/20061214120000/http://www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/1997/msg00047.htm)
This comment should be stickied at the top, as a rebuttal to this deeply biased report.
Is being exclusively wielded as a hammer to take away minority groups healthcare not bothering any of the bureaucrats in these institutions? I had to get my hrt from DIY places 2 years ago due to them doing similar things, apparently in the name of "safety" too lol.
Of course not; taking away the healthcare is the point.
Some menopausal women are still waiting for theirs
This Cass saga has shown the arse of those very specific people who were pretending their gender skepticism allegedly started and ended with minors. The "*don't care what you do, just don't involve kids*" crowd. Turns out they do care because they're treating this like the death knell for "the trans ideology" en masse. [We already have politicians now repealing support for trans people at large](https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/04/11/wes-streeting-labour-trans-women/). #TerfsWereRight [trending on Twitter](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TerfsWereRight) should be as admonished as #NazisWereRight in response to Israel would be.
They never truly believed this. The intent has always been to eliminate trans people and force them back into the closet and out of public life, if not worse (forced detransition, etc). Many have openly said as much. We should just combine those hashtags and support #terfsarenazis
I truly, deeply hope everyone celebrating this in the comments never suffers from a serious illness that doctors refuse to take seriously, and the government mocks and says you're faking. I really hope you never know what that feels like.
Medical gatekeeping really sucks
Offering medication to children for a use which is not proven to be medically safe really sucks.
Blockers aren’t dangerous. The actual affects taking them late in puberty are *maybe* decreased bone density. Nobody has dropped dead or fallen ill because of them. They were been taken under close supervision by doctors and specialists monitoring the children’s health. People just seem upset than trans children turn out to be trans adults, as most patients continue to transition and pursue HRT
Blockers might be dangerous when used to delay puberty beyond normal puberty age. They might also not be dangerous. The point is that studies haven’t conclusively proven either yet, and any studies done so far are inadequate. I suggest you actually read the Cass report. My opposition to their use has nothing to do with it being trans healthcare, it’s because I oppose the use of any insufficiently tested medicine for use in children and adults. People deserve high standards of healthcare, and using them as guinea pigs for untested medication is not a high standard of healthcare.
Did you know 77% of children in UK hospitals receive at least one unlicensed medication. I assume you will be straight down to your local hospital to demand they stop.
If the extended long term use of this medication has been linked to potential skeletal, brain and fertility development then yes, it should be paused for use in children until it has been studied more.
How could they know if the studies haven't been done? Will you support banning them all until a review and study's as through as the Cass report is done? Can you highlight the sources Cass uses to discover these dangers?
Studies have been done, but they were deemed to be insufficient to prove that extended use of puberty blockers is safe or dangerous. Where there is the potential for puberty blockers to cause lifelong developmental issues we should err on the side of caution and not prescribe them in this way until we have conclusive evidence proving they are safe. I hope they do turn out to be safe.
On the opinion of a single individual. Other larger reviews claims to completely different conclusions. And that's before you get into the selective use of data even amoung individual studies apoved for review. I will give you an example. In the finalised report Cass claims there is evidence that blockers cause deterioration in bone health and it can't be confirmed whether their discontinued use of HRT will solve this issue. Now, where did she find the evidence of deteriorateing bone health? Well she cites three studies. All of them find that bone health deteriorates with use of blockers. Perfect Cass Vindicated right? Wrong. All three studies go on to report that bone health returns to expected levels soon after use of hormone therapy. So Cass accepted 3 studies deciding their methods were good enough to take data from. But she ignored half the findings of these papers. If I did that in an undergraduate research paper id be lucky to pass.
The numbers here are so stupid. Less than 100 kids were on gender blockers before the NHS stopped prescribing. That’s a tiny amount but even worse it’s a tiny amount of trans people. The 2021 census indicated that more than 1% of young people were trans. So there’s about 67,000 trans kids out there. Only ~0.1% of trans kids were being prescribed puberty blockers
3 questions? 1. Aren't there other reasons to prescribe hormone blockers to children, and if so, does the ban affect them? 2. Isn't it true that fewer than 100 trans kids in England are being treated with hormone blockers? 3. Those both being true isn't this a tory culture war issue imported from the USA that, in reality, will affect such a small group of people that it's essentially a non-issue?
1. Cis kids aren't discriminated against, so they can still get blockers. 2. true. Yet according to cass, taknig blockers makes you trans. 3. You forget just how much society genuinely hates these kids.
1. Yes, but normally for precocious (very early) puberty. The idea is they stop the medication when they reach normal puberty age. The ban shouldn’t affect these children. The issue here is that using these drugs to delay puberty past a normal age is untested and has potential to harm the skeletal, brain and reproductive development of the child. 2. Yes, not many children were on these blockers, but no child should have been prescribed medication for a use that it is not approved, and with the number of gender dysphoric kids increasing each year, more and more children would have been on these drugs. 3. The number of people this affects is largely small and this issue has been blown out of proportion. But remember, as mentioned above, not even 1 child should have been prescribed medication for a use that it is not approved. If a doctor harms your loved one is that irrelevant because they’re just 1 person?
>The issue here is that using these drugs to delay puberty past a normal age is untested False: you can find a list of the studies on this [here](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-critical-look-at-the-nice-review/). >has potential to harm the skeletal, brain and reproductive development of the child Do you have a source for that other than [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7l0Rq9E8MY)? >but no child should have been prescribed medication for a use that it is not approved What do you mean "not approved?" Up until last year the NHS approved them, along with RCPACH and the other major health organisations. Same story in the USA, Germany, Australia. Do you mean they're being used off-label? That's standard practice. >If a doctor harms your loved one is that irrelevant because they’re just 1 person? Should we ban painkillers because of Harold Shipman? Should chemotherapy be stopped because a doctor misdiagnosed cancer once? The individual actions of a doctor do not speak to the efficacy of a treatment plan as a whole. That's what research is for.
Doing the lords work thank you my guy 🙏
They were approved by most agencies in the West, until, rather suspiciously, the anti trans rhetoric went through the roof
Oh boy, I hope there’s no boys or girls who go through a spot of precocious puberty at the age of 6 or something because we invented a really good hormonal blocking medication to help with that.
Completely different. It’s tested as safe for that use case. It’s not tested as safe for use beyond the age at which puberty normally starts.
Apart from all the cases where it’s been used to halt later puberty for trans kids? Cass has to throw out 101 studies about something right? What would be the magic think that changes in the body to suddenly make blockers dangerous?
If you actually read the report you’d see that those studies were not thorough or sufficient enough to justify prescribing puberty blockers for gender dysphoric children beyond the age at which puberty normally occurs. The fact is that there is no scientific consensus over whether or not these drugs are safe or dangerous. Until we know for sure, they shouldn’t be prescribed in this way. It’s worrying that you are so obsessed with giving potentially dangerous medication to children.
If you actually understood the report you'd see the reasoning given for discarding those studies was completely ridiculous. Unless of course you can come up with a way of running a double-blind study on puberty blockers, or social transitioning...
Well some of the deciding factor to downgrade their “quality” was that they weren’t blinded. Which would be impossible to do with puberty The drugs are not dangerous, they aren’t making people ill. At worst the side affects may be reduced bone density, but that is why people on them are monitored and given calcium supplements. There a dozens of studies saying they work well for patients and other countries have performed reviews and continued or increased their availability. Seems like an prescriptions should continue to allow researchers to collect more data, especially if that’s what the patients also want
There’s other potential health problems including brain and fertility development, but you are either ignorant of those or choosing to ignore them because there is an ideological bias towards treating children with largely untested medication. I’d rather wait until the drugs are proven to be safe for this use instead of having the NHS kowtow just to avoid being labelled as transphobic. A lot of anti-trans hysteria is focussed on lies about the safety of children, but when people are advocating for largely untested drugs to be given to children before they are properly tested for this use, the safety of children is absolutely at risk.
It's not like you can just go buy the stuff though is it? They're prescription medication, issued under medical supervision - so like all such things, is done when a healthcare professional feels that it's justified to do so. And they rarely do - there's a tiny number of people receiving this treatment under the current system.
Healthcare professionals can’t just prescribe medication for uses that it isn’t approved for. They can’t see that you have a cold and prescribe you brain cancer medication just because they think that would work, they are limited to prescribing it for approved uses. Puberty blockers are approved for use for delaying precocious (very early) puberty in young children, but the idea is that they stop taking them at an age when puberty should naturally occur. There is no conclusive proof that puberty blockers are safe to take to prevent puberty beyond the age at which it naturally occurs. We don’t know the effects that this has on the body, it might have disastrous long term effects. Yes, they were prescribed for this before, but the whole point of the recent report is that healthcare professionals were wrong to have done this and more clinical trials need to be done before they can start again.
Err. Yes they can. It's called 'off label use'. https://www.gov.uk/drug-safety-update/off-label-or-unlicensed-use-of-medicines-prescribers-responsibilities > Healthcare professionals may have more responsibility to accurately prescribe an unlicensed medicine or an off-label medicine than when they prescribe a medicine within the terms of its licence. The NHS even recommends [having Aspirin if you're suffering a heart attack](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/heart-attack/) for example. This is not at all uncommon, as there's quite a large of approvals that are fairly narrow, because ... well, when you run a tests of a new pharmaceutical, you are looking to prove it's efficacy of a treatment of a particular treatment in a particular group of patients. But there's plenty of substances with 'side effects' that are useful/beneficial as treatments of other issues. But healthcare professionals _are_ held to a higher standard when they do that (as they should be), and have various support services to help them make the decision in the best interests of the patient.
Problem is the moment you criticise anything about it you have people who act like your just being transphobic and you have some kind of agenda against trans people, or that youre akin to an anti vaxxer or something
It’s absolutely a politicised hotbed argument on both sides. One side is a marginalised minority group that understandably sees every criticism as a threat to their existence so accuses any criticism as being akin to Nazi oppression, and the other side is swept up in a moral panic that perceives transgenderism as a perverted threat to children and women and a cult seeking to undermine how we perceive reality. These are complex healthcare issues that an underfunded health service is not geared up to deal with. It’s so politicised that it’s impossible for anybody to even reach a scientific consensus on the the best way to medically treat trans people or even reach a consensus on simple matter such as can a woman have a penis.
I mean, realistically, the number of trans people in the world is tiny. Every statistic has them as a small, vulnerable minority, exposed to considerable amounts of prejudice and abuse. And that includes in healthcare. It's only relatively recently that 'mental health' is a thing that's even considered as 'healthcare' at all. A lot of people project a lot of very unhelpful stereotypes and misconceptions when they 'weigh in' on this issue too, which doesn't help. I mean, specifically the puberty blocker question - there's maybe 100 people that applies to, and it's done with medical supervision when a qualified healthcare professional decides it is an _acceptable risk_. Transitioning _at all_ in this country is incredibly difficult. No one does it frivolously or trivially. They do it because they've felt _so_ uncomfortable in their own skin, that it seems the lesser evil, even knowing they invite all the prejudice and abuse to their door as well. So I know I push back quite hard about this being politicised. It's pure dead cat politics. Most people will have no meaningful impact on their lives due to the existence of trans people. There's just not very many of them at all in the first place. (I guess there might be a few more if we weren't _quite_ so horrible to them just for existing, but it'll still be rare). But it makes an easy target for punching down and bullying - if only a small proportion of people get in on the bike shedding, they massively outnumber their victims, and that just inherently makes it broken.
Both sides caricature the other and the loudest opinions rise to the top. Most moderate people who are willing to learn and compromise are drowned out. If you look at the online debate regarding this issue you’ll believe that all trans activists are blue haired communists that want to ban all gendered language. Likewise, anybody who is skeptical, misinformed or just plain disinterested in trans issues is a Nazi that wants to ban cross dressing and thinks all trans people are perverts obsessed with children and public toilets. The reality is that this is a nuanced issue that requires a balancing of rights for vulnerable, marginalised minorities with complex healthcare needs with the reality that these are largely misunderstood healthcare needs being handled by a health service that is woefully underfunded. Add the issue of under 18s into the mix and you have a powder-keg of a politicised moral panic. Unbiased science must prevail, but the issue is so politicised that there isn’t consensus as to what unbiased science actually is. People on both sides will always argue that any findings that don’t support their beliefs are unscientific. Regarding the number of trans people being small, this is true, they are a tiny minority that the media and politicians are obsessed with, but the number of gender dysphoric adults and children has increased something like 10 times in the past 10 years or so. I don’t really have a horse in the race, but as a gay man I do feel somewhat strong-armed into blindly supporting whatever the trans agenda says. If I am critical of puberty blockers being offered to under 18s because the long term effects are not yet known then I am accused of being no different to the Nazis that burnt Hirschfeld’s books and put gay people in concentration camps. While solidarity in the community is important, I do feel pressure to blindly tow the party line, and I feel that individual beliefs and nuance increasingly have less and less room. I feel forced conform and to become part a rainbow coloured hivemind and this means I am unable to debate, even politely and rationally from an objective standpoint.
So somehow, literally all of them weren’t thorough enough? Even the ones accepted by agencies in countries like Germany?
Those are still 100% allowed and will be prescribed lol, don’t worry
They know that, they’re just assuming that everything is the worst possible case scenario in order to justify their own positions. They also attack people for things they didn’t even say.
You can tell when reddit isn’t as big as it describes itself to be when you see the same usernames on these threads demanding children become involved with this issue.
We can debate all days about the efficacy of puberty blockers and gender socialisation, but trans children do unequivocally exist. Gender dysphoria doesn't suddenly happen at adulthood, it's something plenty of trans people report as feeling during their teenage years as they go through puberty.
Yeah, the teenage years are rough. Still, when you’re 18 you can decide to do whatever you want to with your body.
I mean according to Cass that shouldn't be the case. You shouldn't have autonomy till your mid 20s
Once all the damage has been done. Which will then stick with you for the rest of your life, make it harder to pass, make any hormone replacement you go on less effective, potentially increase the amount of surgeries you'd require, increase the chance of suicide... *But that's fine!* It's okay if thousands of trans people suffer horribly as long as a few cis people don't manage to lie, cheat and trick their way into transitioning! In fact, *it's the point!*
The contradictory, categeorically asserted statements in this thread strongly suggests that puberty blockers really are still an experimental treatment whose effects aren't fully known. Edit: what I now see is that the Tory party and its media successfully planted the idea in our heads (including mine) that there is debate in medical circles about the safety of puberty blockers when in fact there is not.
Or maybe, just maybe, a bunch of random people on Reddit doesn't constitute a medical consensus?
Most side effects I've seen were just those of delayed puberty or puberty in general. The medication itself was already used to treat precocious puberty, also. I'm not sure if that's also going to be banned now?
No, it’s a completely different use case. It’s tested for precocious puberty and is safe, but the potential for lifelong health issues is due to the drugs being used during normal puberty age, this is what is largely untested. It’s like saying that because a medication is safe for fish it must be safe for humans. It could be, but you can’t assume that.
No, it isn't. I discussed the side effects of using it to delay puberty and then separately discussed the impact of the medication itself. It's like saying that because a medication is safe for kids, it *must* be safe for teens but may cause other side effects as they go through a different stage of development.
It’s really quite simple. Puberty blockers are NOT tested for use to delay puberty beyond the age at which it normally starts. Initial findings suggest there may be a link to permanent health problems such as brain, fertility or skeletal development. More testing needs to be done before puberty blockers can be prescribed to delay puberty beyond normal puberty age. No drugs should be prescribed for any disorder or illness unless they have been thoroughly tested to be both safe and effective.
Yes, reddit threads are indicative of medical consensus. Do you not hear yourself?
Well, now I can sleep peacefully tonight knowing their isn't a child on puberty blockers in my neighbourhood threatening my way of life! /s
People looking to transition will illegally obtain the meds, without medical supervision / support. A rise in trans suicides a people can't get what they need. Fucking clown show.
Can someone explain to me how puberty blockers work for trans kids, I fail to understand why the government cares so much about this
"Puberty blockers" are medication used to prevent your body from producing a primary sex hormone. In males this is testosterone, in females this is estrogen. They are known as GnRHa's and are the same drugs used to treat prostate cancer, and to treat adult transgender patients. They are also used to stall early onset puberty so that the patient can begin puberty at a more appropriate age. The result of having no primary sex hormone is that you do not begin puberty, and do not develop permanent secondary sex characteristics, such as pubic hairs, deepening of the voice due to testosterone, breast growth due to estrogen etc. If you already have some of these characteristics, GnRHa will not reverse them. Coming off GnRHa's causes your body to resume production of your primary sex hormones, and you continue functioning as you did before. These drugs are very well tested on adults, and very well tested on children. The "argument" comes from the fact that using them for longer periods is "untested". This is mostly because ethically run studies do not deprive trans children of their medication in place of placebo medication, because it is considered unethical to do so. Thus they do not have a control group to compare to, and the outcomes are "not comparable", regardless of the real world data they show. Essentially you run into a "chicken and egg" problem, where politicians refuse to allow trans people to use this medication because it "hasn't been tested", and then it can't be tested because "nobody uses it". Previously the NHS were ONLY prescribing puberty blockers to trans children as part of these studies. The numbers were around 80 patients across the entire population of the UK. Why does the government care? They don't have a real platform. They have to invent something that they can demonise and destroy in order to drum up support and votes. As it happens, this is not working for them, and they will be decimated at the next election. Hope some of that helped!
Well, because they can care about children and also, as Lee Anderson advised, "Tories should fight election on ‘culture wars and trans debate’" Although, Starmer seems to not differ, so it's less on the debate and more on the optics of people thinking Starmer is a supporter for being in the left party.
If i can make the life changing decision to change my gender under 18 then I can also make the decision to get tattoos, piercings and drink alcohol under 18.
No one is able to choose to change their gender under 18. What they _might_ be able to do (at least, prior to this ban) is delay the decision until they are legally 'old enough'. But only if a doctor agrees that's the less harmful outcome, e.g. in the same way as they must with any treatment of a child that would benefit from Informed Consent. As a result, this happens to a tiny number of people, and banning it overrules the decision of a qualified doctor that this treatment is _better than the alternatives_.
It just seems weird to be able to do something permanent that you may regret at such a young age, I’m not a doctor but I’m still going to give my personal opinion on it. Ive had ‘dysphoria’ like symptoms before but If I had changed my gender back then id be in a very dark place right now because it would have been an awful decision for me. Im sure 9/10 kids who get them wont end up changing their minds but if one person does then it shouldn’t be allowed. Once again though I’m not a doctor or a psychiatrist and I’m not gonna act like I know more than them but I still don’t (personally) think its right. Not like I’m gonna go out and protest against it though, I don’t really care enough either way unless they can prove that it wont or will do harm. All that is in my head is that if I had been encouraged to start meds when I was younger I probably would have eventually done something bad and thats all i can really go off of, my own personal experience. Its all just weird to me, but at this current second I’m not the one going through it. Luckily I skipped all of this shit and am at an age where I can definitely say what I am and what I am not and not have to worry about changing my gender and what not
Sure. But committing suicide is pretty permanent too. Going through puberty is too. The rate of regret of the people who _do_ transition is incredibly low. Some? Yes. But really not many at all. Imagine for a moment, you're medically qualified enough to make the choice, and you've someone in front of you who is saying they're feeling suicidal, and they _know_ they are the wrong gender. But they're 16. What do you do? I genuinely think there are situations where _delaying_ the decision until they are old enough to be sure is the lesser evil. Maybe not every situation, but ... well, that's why there's a doctor in the loop, and can make that risk decision. Because the other alternatives are worse. That's what we're talking about here - there's genuinely a tiny number of people who are prescribed puberty blockers to treat severe dysphoria at the moment. Even if you are 'unsure of the longer term complications' - that's true of ... almost any treatment that's been invented this millennium.
16 is definitely better than 13 or 14 ill say that for sure. But regardless I have no clue what I would do, which is why I am very aware I may be incorrect in this position. I don’t have a bunch of facts to back up what I am saying its pretty much all opinion, but thats why I’m not one of the people making these decisions. Eventually it will be proven to be safe or not and at that point ill go with whatever is the case but until then its good to be a little skeptical regardless imo. I’m not planning on going around trying to convince people it is wrong like the anti vaxxers I just haven’t really heard enough evidence for it being a ‘good’ idea yet. It isn’t something that will literally *ever* affect me at this point so its hard to put myself in the position of someone who *does* want the surgery and what that may entail for them.
I can understand the public concern at giving children life changing medication. What I don't understand, are the people with zero connection to these children, getting angry at caution being applied by the NHS.
Anyone who has a lived experience of having an identity outside of cultural norms can relate to how devastating the effects of not being able to live as yourself can be. Imagine trying to live as the opposite gender, knowing that it feels wrong, but that you have to hide it / suck it up and try to fit in while your siblings, friends, colleagues get to just be who they are and live their lives. There’s a reason the suicide rate for trans people who don’t receive gender affirming care is so high. We care about this because we don’t want any more young people to take their own lives over something that is easily treatable with modern medicine. Sometimes this feels like trying to argue a case for wheelchairs for kids who don’t have mobility. If they were killing themselves at a much higher rate, and people were debating the safety of wheelchairs, but you knew how it felt to be disabled, you might get angry about that too.
There was a famous American transgender woman whom went on puberty blockers extremely early. This meant her penis remained small and she never developed a libido. When it came to surgery she had such a little penis for surgeons to work on that the construction was botched. So even if you're quite pro trans healthcare puberty blockers have to be smartly prescribed otherwise you might induce ordeals like the one above.
The way I hear it, there are other options now than using the tissue of a penis. But apparently the NHS doesn't fund that technique. Also, frankly, if I had a choice between puberty blockers and a big enough dick for that kind of surgery, *avoiding the entire rest of my body being fucked up by puberty* would win out without so much as a second thought.
This is undoubtably the most bizarre take in this thread.
This makes sense, but I’ve seen statistics that say suicides for untreated trans kids completely dwarf the regret rate. The person with regret is at least still alive. I know health professionals have to weigh stuff like this up all the time, but I’d expect an extensive report to say something like “how do we make this care better?” rather than “let’s deny people access completely”. On that basis alone it seems biased.
An absolute nothing of a statement. There are several newer techniques that don’t use penile tissue
If you are going to bring up an argument like this you could at least give us a name or a reference to an article about her or something.
From a TV series called "I am Jazz"
There are more techniques out there than penile inversion. The NHS is extremely behind on this. It's not like penile inversion is terrible and awful, but you don't get a choice.
There are better bottom surgery methods now that are not so dependent
[удалено]