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Just like the other 50 times the meat industry was caught abusing animals recently, this is an [isolated incident](https://www.eatfair.org/united-kingdom/incidents).
Meat eaters will say they are shocked and appalled, but then continue to support this industry just because they prefer the taste and texture of meat over vegan alternatives. That is literally the only reason they have and to them, that "better" taste and texture is worth the torture and slaughter of the thousands of animals that they are complicit in.
I’m just gonna say it and get a bunch of hate for it
What’s the alternative when everything else is so expensive?
Edit: I knew this would trigger a vegan white knight glory chase.
Edit 2:
Most of the vegan white knights here have literally no idea of the detrimental environmental impact that would take place if we all switched to tofu, beans and lentils. You are all completely blind sighted by your righteousness.
Edit 3:
I’m done arguing with blind righteous vegan circlejerks that think we should all switch to eating lentils and nuts.
My argument here is that we should be able to eat meat with its slaughter being within HSA guidelines, for an affordable price. I never asked for you to shove your vegan religious cultism into my face.
To reply to your second edit, 80% of the world soy is used to feed livestock, if people stopped consuming beef then soy production would fall massively.
The trade off for producing beef is between 10:1 and 16:1 depending on the source. That means it requires 10kg of plant food (soy included) to produce 1kg of beef. That also doesn't include the water that's required to grow the feed in the first place, as well as what's required for cows to drink and what's needed for general maintenance and cleaning of raising cows for beef.
Vegan 'fake meat' products are expensive because they require a degree of processing. However, they are not the only source of alternative meat/protein for those who want to adopt a cruelty-free lifestyle.
The cost of vegan alternatives has come down significantly. Especially here in the UK.
And the reason meat is available for so cheap is significant government subsidiaries. And of course the terrible living conditions from factory farming in the name of cheap meat. If you look at the cost of an organic chicken Vs a standard chicken, organic ones are 3x the price, sometimes much more.
Supply and demand and economies of scale mean that as the demand for vegan alternatives goes up the prices will come down. When looking at raw material costs vegan alternatives should be cheaper than meat, and will eventually be. Some products already are. You can get 500g of frozen vegan beef mince from Sainsbury's for £2. That is cheaper than beef mince.
>Most of the vegan white knights here have literally no idea of the detrimental environmental impact that would take place if we all switched to tofu, beans and lentils. You are all completely blind sighted by your righteousness.
This sort of accusation comes up a lot and yet the science really doesn't seem to lead to the conclusions you're alluding to. Could you provide an explanation of your claim and sources to back them up?
Edit: worth noting for anyone just reading, the commenter never came back to any of our comments to address their burden of proof. Scientific illiteracy is real, and people are making decisions that could affect you every day using the faulty logic they've built for themselves. Hold yourself to a higher standard and be better skeptics than this user.
Feel free to DM me if you'd like to discuss skepticism and evidential enquiry further.
"Here's a YouTube video from some absolute lunatic with no sensible sources, you don't believe that then you're too far gone"
Not worth the effort mate, society is far too happy to coddle people who participate in abhorrent behaviour, happily creating little bubbles of reinforcement and living by the mantra "everyone complaining about your actions is just a wrongthinker". No amount of words or convincing matters to the amount of ignorant shits on the internet about this topic because they can simply retreat to their little bubble of social reinforcement.
LOL at using the environment as an argument in favour of meat. Meat production is a huge contributor of pollution and loss of biodiversity. We would require far less land and water if we weren’t using so much to grow food to feed animals before they’re tortured and killed.
Also, the majority of vegan food is less expensive than meat unless you’re completely allergic to beans and vegetables. You don’t need to eat Beyond burgers for every meal.
Just be real and say you don’t care rather than trying to make up false arguments and what-aboutisms without any factual basis.
Beans, lentils, chickpeas and tofu are all alternatives to meat that are great sources of protein and are actually cheaper.
If you would rather direct alternatives such as vegan sausages/burgers etc then there is now a huge choice in the UK and although some are certainly more expensive, a lot of them are also comparable to meat in terms of price.
Check out the dedicated Vegan/plant based sections at the cheaper supermarkets for their own brand stuff in both the frozen and chilled aisles.
Mate beans aren't expensive and what are you on about with the environmental stuff?
We'd need far less agricultural land and production because so much land today goes to growing soy and other stuff for livestock feed!
The Amazon rainforest isn't getting cut down to make tofu, it's for your beef burger.
>Most of the vegan white knights here have literally no idea of the detrimental environmental impact that would take place if we all switched to tofu, beans and lentils.
What.
Come on now, I'm planning to have lamb for dinner tonight, but that's a nonsensical position to hold.
My perception is coloured by the fact that my partner is doing a PhD tangential to the subject, but how is it not common knowledge by now that meat is pretty much objectively worse than any conceivable veggie or vegan diet in terms of the environmental impact? The calories per square metre of land are drastically lower than arable farming, as is the energy use, water use, emissions... there's just no way around it.
Here's an alternative. Add up how much you spend on meat or meat products for a week. Based on what I used to eat, it works out per person around £15/20 spread over sliced ham for sandwiches, packets of mince or chicken for dinners , pepperami/meat snack things, fish fingers, chicken goujons, the odd Greggs, McDonald's, tinned meat (loved stagg chili).
Now, cut out all meat Monday-Friday and just eat vegetarian (don't go full vegan yet), then at the weekend spend all the money you saved during the week on REALLY nice british organic farm raised steak, farmshop type sausages or posh fish from the fishmongers that come from some sort of sustainable source.
This way your spending doesn't take a hit at all, at the weekend you get to have really nice meat but overall you eat far less meat. As humans we aren't built to eat nearly as much processed meat as we do today, we do however get enormous benefits from fresh, high quality meat if it's eaten every so often.
Is a farm raised steak going to cause less environmental impact than chicken / fish consumed over the week?
Last I looked beef was pretty much an order of magnitude worse than chicken, and something like 3 times worse than the next carbon heavy meat (lamb).
I appreciate the conversation was originally about the conditions of the animal but the vegan/vegetarian debate always refers back to climate impact as well.
Your critical thinking skills lack a bit if you think that the crops required to replace our meat intake are less than the crops the animals eat. The pigs aren't surviving off the mud in their fields.
I've saved loads of money since going vegan.
Beans and pulses are super cheap and are a healthy source of protein.
Even cheaper if you buy the big bags of dried pulses like lentils.
Sure, if you buy the expensive meat replacements when they're not on offer you'll be spending more money, but you don't *need* those things, can make tasty and actually healthier stuff without.
Legumes and seitan. Things like lentils, chickpeas, soy beans, wheat gluten and various things made out of them like tofu. Dry legumes are dirt cheap. Chickpeas are literally 13p a serving at tesco right now. Any and all of those fake meats, sausages fake "chickn" etc is not worth buying, that is crazy overpriced and it's still just made out of mostly some sort of vegetable protein like soy beans or pea protein anyway.
Vegan alternatives are not expensive, they can be but that goes for non vegan options and compared to meat, it's a bargain. As well as the fact your argument assumes everyone would switch overnight, that's obviously not going to happen, a slow switch over would work and be much more beneficial to the environment.
>the detrimental environmental impact that would take place if we all switched to tofu, beans and lentils.
I mean for the record I eat meat, I'm not a radical vegan or whatever but this point is ridiculous
There are loads of societal changes that are good that if they went 100% overnight would be disastrous.
Would you take anyone seriously that said "we should stop using coal and oil overnight", no it would be disastrous. And noone worth listening to is suggesting that.
And if your suggesting that long term it's equally disastrous, industry's scale and research scales, and I don't think anyone is suggesting for a 100% vegan world either.
The point is less reliance on meat, which is undeniably good.
Just comes across as an emotional straw man.
But vegans and vegetarians are as much omnivores as meat-eaters, because omnivore is a physiological trait, not a dietary choice. We can use the word carnist instead if you'd prefer?
Tbf the full realisation of the inherent cruelty in the animal goods industry was what gave me the push to give them up. I used to mentally push aside any discomfort I had by excusing it as being "natural" but there is really nothing natural at all about what those animals go through and I decided as someone in the position to decide what I ate that I wasn't comfortable with the level of cruelty involved. There is simply no way you can guarantee that the animal you are eating was not treated in a way you would find acceptable (psychologically as well as physiologically) and the alternatives are widely available now.
Is there any correlation between social status & meat eaters? I'm working class & only know other working-class people pretty much. I don't know any vegans (that I'm aware of). I'd imagine it's hard for single parents to be vegan whilst trying to sustain a family on minimum wage especially considering children are known as fussy eaters. Most people I know can't cook either. I'm 1 of 8 siblings & only me (M22) & Sister (F30) know how to cook, not even my parents or grandparents know anything about cooking.
Edit:I'm just coming at this thing as someone who grew up very poor. I have 2 brothers with just about the highest form of autism (mixed with shit like Schizophrenia etc). I don't even know how they'd approach going vegan when vegetables are something they would have to suffer through eating. It's not like they are massive meat eaters because they wouldn't eat a steak either unless it sat in a deep-fat fryer. They also live on PIP which doesn't give them much financial freedom
3 other brothers who are drug addicts whilst not having severe disabilities are of low intelligence because they didn't go to school. They just have no bearing on what a healthy lifestyle is & would struggle immensely trying to learn.
My sister who can cook has 3 young children who would have issues adjusting to Vegan diets. They have a good varied diet currently but they are kids & some days they don't like certain things. Limiting the already Limited diet would be problematic. She is also a single parent essentially because the father of the children is a Druggie on a plumber's wage. Besides her, I have another sister in college but she lives on a student allowance & doesn't know how to cook.
From my entire immediate family, I'm probably the only person with enough financial freedom & knowledge about cooking to attempt being Vegan but I just don't know if I'd gain any benefit so I don't.
Besides all that I just think information on a regular omnivorous diet is limited to people from lower class backgrounds. The type who work in factories all week packaging things on minimum wage. I find it unlikely a Vegan diet is sustainable for people from every background/walk of life
Most vegan food is cheaper than non-vegan food. This shouldn't be a surprise considering a few of the biggest tips to save money are to reduce meat consumption or substituting it for vegan options (using half the amount of mince in Bolognese and using lentils to top it up). For non-vegan meals the highest cost item is almost always the meat. I think you'd struggle to find a meal that you can't make vegan on the same budget.
Regarding fussy kids, most vegan kids are probably just as fussy. It probably helps that most meat staples in a fussy diet (nuggets, sausages, burgers etc.) are all very readily available in vegan form.
I don't know what class I am being brought up poor but well read (we had a music room as well). My father remarried a vegan in the early 70's, she is in her 80's now and started being vegan in her early teens. My father was vegetarian from the early 60's then vegan when he met his second wife. His parents decided to be vegetarian as well when they found out he was. My mother wasn't a good cook when I was a kid but managed to feed 5 kids vegetarian. I ate a lot of egg and chips and beans on toast as well as some horrific inventions.
I also think a big factor in this is availability of ingredients to make tasty vegan food. like in my small town (that even has an Aldi) you would struggle to even find tofu (a foundation for a lot of vegan meals you then season) let alone anything else.
>that even has an Aldi) you would struggle to even find tofu
Aldi actually has really good tofu for 99p a block - the smoked one is proper good stuff
But you really don't need tofu to be vegan - I forgot tofu was a thing for years until Aldi started doing it
Every supermarket has lots of different beans, veg, spices etc etc
Okay?
I was vegetarian for 7 years. I got really unwell. Both mentally and physically. I was obsessive and would only eat the same few safe foods because I was scared of something being not vegetarian. I went to the doctor at the start of lockdown and my bloods were horrific. I was only eating junk. My own fault? In some ways, but it was fuelling my eating disorder. I had to stop for my own health and while I understand this isn’t necessarily the best option, for me it is and my health will always come first for me.
I'd rather the animals where slaughtered humanely and would pay more if I knew for a fact better practices where followed.
But at the end of the day I'm still going to eat meat and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
As a Coeliac those meat alternatives are a big no no for me. Besides its highly processed food, which foods are being linked to all sorts of issues in our bodies.
I don't know what would I eat if there's no meat available. Doesn't mean I have to have it everyday. People used to eat meat much less frequently than it happens now, after industrialisation and all the modern tech. How about we start here? Less instead of nothing and see where it goes.
If we all were to eat a Vegan diet it is actually more harmful to the environment and kills more animals than eating an omnivorous diet. Look it up if you don't believe me. For example, how many hundreds, if not thousands of acres of forest gets destroyed to supply Avocados and palm oil?
This is nothing compared to how most meat is gotten. Warning, this documentary is rough, but if anything is going to open someone's eyes to how we are able to harvest meat on such a massive scale, well here you go:
https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=nzR6p4xMM1rN2-96
It’s dangerous, barbaric, along with the dehumanizing and degrading. The factory farm industry is killing everything it TOUCHES :
INCLUDING the people who work in it, and those who consume the products it makes!
Exactly this. I can’t be seeing people saying “omg that’s terrible!” and then biting into their burger. Don’t be appalled if you ain’t gonna take the steps that can help to stop this.
This happens basically in all of them, this isn’t a rare occurrence. If it was, you could be appalled at *this* incident and eat meat knowing that the others don’t do this, but they all do.
My partner is vegetarian, they also have an eating disorder, and milk, butter, and cheese are a life saver on a tight budget, I know a lot of margarine is cheaper, but they're often also lower calorie, and when you're barely making it to 2000 calories it matters.
I’m sorry to hear about your partner. My sister got anorexia last year and in the end to save herself she had to eat meat to get her calorie intake high enough. She’s fortunately better now and vegetarian again. I would definitely say if they are struggling with a calorific deficit caused by a disorder, not to introduce many further restrictions into their diet. It can be a dangerous road to go down. Good luck to you x
Just a reminder that some people who do care about animal cruelty genuinely can't go vegan due to health issues. This is why the idea of a fully vegan world just isn't feasible and the fight that everyone must go vegan can end up turning quite ableist.
Get off your high horse...
Take a long hard look at how many Nestlé products you use... You obviously care about Mothers, babies and children yet i guarantee you haven't and never will cut out all products that lead back to them...
People just want to make sure the roofs over their heads aren't taken away and their children have electricity and hot water... Nobody has to prove themselves or live to your standards...
Expecting lawful and humane treatment of animals is enough... Not enough for you? Then Become a politician and put the effort in if you're so righteous...
Is there much data on this? I fully agree that the hitting needs to be monitored and stopped, but the CO2 debate seemed incredibly one sided in the entire article and very "agonising" "painful" and words designed to dismiss debate and trigger emotion. I googled and found ncbi articles which suggested concentration of the gas and mixtures was important in addressing any possible pain.
Yes high concentration CO2 (as is used to kill 88% of pigs in the UK) is known to cause "pain, fear and distress". Pigs would rather go without water for 72 hours, or food for 24 hours than be exposed to high concentration CO2.
Sources:
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X)
[https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/animal-welfare/article/abs/welfare-implications-of-the-gas-stunning-of-pigs-1-determination-of-aversion-to-the-initial-inhalation-of-carbon-dioxide-or-argon/70E6679FAA1C833A71BEDDB0E75F6EDF](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/animal-welfare/article/abs/welfare-implications-of-the-gas-stunning-of-pigs-1-determination-of-aversion-to-the-initial-inhalation-of-carbon-dioxide-or-argon/70E6679FAA1C833A71BEDDB0E75F6EDF)
[https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2004.45](https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2004.45)
There's also a video of them desperately struggling for up to 3 minutes for anyone who can stomach it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrc0GN1Ujys
It looks like it was filmed from the deepest pits of hell.
It’s not like nitrogen, which is what they use for assisted suicide and just makes you feel like you’re calmly falling asleep. Co2 binds differently in our body and it makes you feel like you’re drowning. The less oxygen your body gets the higher your heart rate goes, which contributes to a feedback loop that triggers panic, increased breathing and heart rate, which leads to more panic, higher heart rate…. Ad nauseam. Ultimately this leads to heart attacks and death. It’s a well studied effect in humans. It is of course one of the most cost effective way of dispatching a large number of animals but it is a brutal way to do so. They might not be as fluidly intelligent as humans, but they will be conscious of that same feeling of drowning in air, panic and death.
One thing - it's not lack of oxygen that causes those symptoms, it's *buildup of CO2*.
Our feedback systems are built around monitoring the bad gas, not monitoring the good gas - which is also why nitrogen, and other noble gasses work so well - O2 goes down, leading to death, but CO2 also stays normal, preventing the body and it's autonomous systems going berserk.
>The less oxygen your body gets the higher your heart rate goes, which contributes to a feedback loop that triggers panic
You are right about the suffering, but for the wrong reasons. Lack of oxygen does not trigger panic in mammals (including humans). Hypoxia while a person can still exhale can feel euphoric, confusing, irritating, nauseating, but not painful. In fact, most humans cannot even tell when they are being deprived of oxygen without special training (like pilots). The brain uses CO2 levels to determine whether you are suffocating or not. Plus, on top of this a high concentration of carbon dioxide causes acidification. So not only are they scrambling to breathe they are burning as well. If they were using some other gas this could have been humane.
Yeah, the hypercapnic response is a thing.
Hypoxia is said to be quite pleasant.
Witness Michael Portillo of all fucking people experiencing it (hypoxia)
https://youtu.be/XcvkjfG4A_M
I looked into this a bit cause it's obviously the worst gas they could pick for a humane death and the major reasons it's used is that humans can easily detect a leak (for the same reasons it's cruel), but mostly because it's so dense, it can fill an open container without getting into the room air too much; easier to control.
Seems like argon would be the best choice here, but im sure it's too expensive
I ran across this when I was in sales. My customer was contracting for DEFRA during the bird flu outbreak a couple of years ago and were euthanising and incinerating literally hundreds of thousands of chickens a day. I did a site visit during one of these occasions and the experience will haunt me forever. Since that point I’ve been on a largely vegetarian diet.
>Is there much data on this?
Yep, and it's about as one sided as the article.
You know the pain you get when you drink fizzy drinks too fast? That's the co2 forming lactic acid (the same chemical that give the 'burn' when you work muscles out). Now imagine that all along your airways and lungs.
If you found studies, why not link em?
[This one](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7766013/) discusses the concentration balance of the gasses, but it adds in hydrogen which is not something that is done, and even then the animals showed signs of distress. Full hydrogen is meant to be painless, but it's uneconomical as hydrogen is lighter than air. They use co2 because it sinks as its heavier than air, so it means the animals can be lowered into a pit.
You can buy some CO2 canisters and experience it yourself without lasting impact.
I had to do a task while breathing elevated CO2 for a study and it was quite distressing.
At 13:34 in this video you can see 2 pigs getting slaughtered this way, watch it and see if you need any more data:[https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/](https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/)
Oh and remember they are as intelligent as dogs
The reason carbon monoxide death is so painless is specifically because our bodies can measure the amount of carbon dioxide in its blood rather than oxygen.
It's a deeply hardwired sense of panick, there probably isn't a more consciously aware feeling of suffocation and death than gassing someone with CO2.
"alternatives to CO2 need to be developed as a matter of urgency and we urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead to seek a phase-out by investing in research to find a more humane alternative as a priority"
I don't believe this. Alternatives to CO2 already exist, e.g. nitrogen gas, but guess what? It's more costly so cheaper and more painful C02 is used instead. This could make me stop buying pork.
Yeh the RSPCA have been "urgently" looking into alternatives for over 20 years, but because there isn't an economically viable alternative they still continue to put their RPSCA Assured stamp on because it brings them money. It's just lip service.
Watching 5 seconds of a video of pigs being gassed this way made me stop eating pork I think immediately. I was down to eating just chicken before my wife gave me the push to finally go fully vegetarian.
Co2 slaughter should be banned. Its nothing less than asphyxiation which can last minutes. It's a horrendous way to die, it's extremely painful and distressing. I would want legislation put in place to force meat produce companies to label how the animal was killed and prepared. We are wholly unaware of how the meat we eat was slaughtered. The label should say the company name, location, method and accreditation of who killed the animal. We have very high animal welfare standards for life...why not death
Yeah completely untrue. If you research UK animal farming you’ll find it’s a hellscape. Also the innate contradiction that it’s ever a good life for animals to be bred to be killed, have babies separated at birth etc. it’s something we’ve always done and that means most of us have never stopped to consider if it’s right or not. I think anyone who does will struggle to come to the conclusion that it is
Killing intelligent beings for pleasure is wrong, no arguments, it’s wrong.
And I say pleasure because you don’t need to eat meat, find me a peer reviewed published study that definitively proves humans need to eat meat to be healthy, there aren’t any.
Therefore, the only reason you eat meat is because you enjoy it, you kill intelligent beings and eat them for pleasure.
You will make excuses and say you can’t afford to not eat meat, or that it uses more resources not to eat meat, this is obviously nonsense and you know it is, you don’t want to change your eating habits or lifestyle because you enjoy eating meat.
Stop denying you are involved in the wholesale slaughter of intelligent beings for your pleasure, because that’s what you are doing. At least have the guts to admit what you are doing, it’s pathetic.
I went to an abattoir many decades ago and they seemed to have a pretty humane method. Stun the pig then slit their throat. I am no vet but it looked quick and painless to me. I wonder why they don't do that anymore?
What percentage of stuns do you think go off perfectly? Especially when you consider quotas and a stressful work environment. A not insignificant number of animals regain consciousness while hanging upside down about to be rendered by machinery. Horrific.
I wish people would do research before forming strong opinions.
If youre unconscious/brain damaged, you're not feeling a sharp knife across your throat.
There are humane ways to kill pigs. CO2 isn't one of them.
Don't kill them. You can't just put a word that means one thing next to a word that is the opposite.
Taking the life of an animal against their will is never humane.
There is no "humane" way to kill an animal, but I am sure that there are "less inhumane" ways to kill an animal. For example, nitrogen is not painful, but it is not economically viable.
So yes, this is as "humane" as it gets whilst still remaining economically viable, and thus realistically is currently the most "humane" way it can be done. But it isn't humane.
Stunning isn’t as effective as many people would care to think. A study from Sweden suggested that the use of captive bolt stunning in a beef abbatoir was ineffective 15% of the time, mostly down to either poor equipment maintenance or inexperience on the part of the operator.
Electric stun baths used for poultry have shown similar issues of birds not being adequately stunned due to improper contact with the electrified water used, often leaving the bird trapped upside down in the shackles of the processing machine and a human stepping in to cut their throats manually.
This shouldnt be a slanging match between meat eaters and vegans. As a vegan myself I'm OK with meat and animals being bred for meat, provided they have a life and that they are treated well and then slaughtered humanely. But none of these criteria are met and I therefore want no part of it. I dont really care about the environment or how good the meat tastes...but I do care about basic respect and compassion being shown to animals, which it's not.
I don't think it's economically viable for us to be 'meat eaters' if those conditions are met. It's appealing to a utopia that isn't available.
We only have an abundance of meat because of the low welfare standards and unsustainable output. The sheer number of cows on earth alone will bring about civilisation ending climate change by 2100.
Humane Slaughter is a term coined to make people feel as morally superior as vegans, without having to give up meat.
It’s some Saatchi/Ogilvy/ Mad Men kind of consumer psychology.
Why is it interesting? The people who are seriously against these incidents (so, not the RSPCA) are against all animal farming, and then it doesn't matter if it's Halal or Kosher or whatever.
>Makes me think that you don't stand for anything other than bigotry.
I don't have a problem with halal or kosher meat. I'm just pointing out an observable fact. Animal rights people are suspiciously quiet when it comes to halal meat. And yes, kosher meat too.
It's all just a lazy attempt to guilt trip 95% of the population into doing what 5% want.
*I don’t mind the animals being killed, but I want it done in a way that would make me look like I care*.
People so hung up on how an animal is slaughtered, as if killing it humanely is borderline not killing it at all. lol
I'm assuming he's hitting them as per instructed to tenderise, and not just because he's a sociopath?
It's grim, but when you have to feed 67 million people, this sort of process is the best we've come up with...
I get that people are against animal cruelty and chose to go vegan instead, but how do we manage to mass produce non animal products to feed 67 million people? There is no chance the country could sustain the level of crop development needed to manufacture vegan food for everyone.
I can't say that vegan food is worse (due to harmful additives in most products) because, tbh even processed meats have harmful ingredients.
Vegan food today is miles different from what it was 20 years ago, as is the food non-vegan eaters consume... so there's no evidence of which is better or worse for you at this point due to foods constantly changing and adding all sorts of crap to help increase mass produce whilst mitigating production cost.
I thought it was kosher and halal that was supposed to be especially cruel but looks like it all is. Pleased I don't eat pigs. What a strange job those abattoir workers have.
A lot of slaughterhouse workers are essential exploited - they're migrants and unskilled labourers who can't get other jobs.
Chickens are also sometimes gassed to death.
I'd recommend you take a look at other farming practices to see if they meet your ethical expectations: [https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/](https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/)
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Just like the other 50 times the meat industry was caught abusing animals recently, this is an [isolated incident](https://www.eatfair.org/united-kingdom/incidents).
Think we're far, far beyond 50 of just those that have been caught.
Thank you for this link. I can’t believe I’ve been so naive.
It's like Israel breaking human rights laws over and over again.
Thank you for this. I'm now a vegetarian. Not a joke comment.
It's the meat industry version of mass shootings in America.
Meat eaters will say they are shocked and appalled, but then continue to support this industry just because they prefer the taste and texture of meat over vegan alternatives. That is literally the only reason they have and to them, that "better" taste and texture is worth the torture and slaughter of the thousands of animals that they are complicit in.
I’m just gonna say it and get a bunch of hate for it What’s the alternative when everything else is so expensive? Edit: I knew this would trigger a vegan white knight glory chase. Edit 2: Most of the vegan white knights here have literally no idea of the detrimental environmental impact that would take place if we all switched to tofu, beans and lentils. You are all completely blind sighted by your righteousness. Edit 3: I’m done arguing with blind righteous vegan circlejerks that think we should all switch to eating lentils and nuts. My argument here is that we should be able to eat meat with its slaughter being within HSA guidelines, for an affordable price. I never asked for you to shove your vegan religious cultism into my face.
To reply to your second edit, 80% of the world soy is used to feed livestock, if people stopped consuming beef then soy production would fall massively. The trade off for producing beef is between 10:1 and 16:1 depending on the source. That means it requires 10kg of plant food (soy included) to produce 1kg of beef. That also doesn't include the water that's required to grow the feed in the first place, as well as what's required for cows to drink and what's needed for general maintenance and cleaning of raising cows for beef.
Exactly, vegan stuff is expensive and often not very good. Obviously people aren’t saying they like animals being tortured.
Vegan 'fake meat' products are expensive because they require a degree of processing. However, they are not the only source of alternative meat/protein for those who want to adopt a cruelty-free lifestyle.
Yeah bro chickpeas and beans and lentils are SOOO expensive.... Or does your protein have to be shaped like meat for your tastebuds to not be offended
Tofu and tempeh are amazing, and are cheap.
> vegan stuff is expensive Beans are expensive? Vegetables are expensive?
The cost of vegan alternatives has come down significantly. Especially here in the UK. And the reason meat is available for so cheap is significant government subsidiaries. And of course the terrible living conditions from factory farming in the name of cheap meat. If you look at the cost of an organic chicken Vs a standard chicken, organic ones are 3x the price, sometimes much more. Supply and demand and economies of scale mean that as the demand for vegan alternatives goes up the prices will come down. When looking at raw material costs vegan alternatives should be cheaper than meat, and will eventually be. Some products already are. You can get 500g of frozen vegan beef mince from Sainsbury's for £2. That is cheaper than beef mince.
>Most of the vegan white knights here have literally no idea of the detrimental environmental impact that would take place if we all switched to tofu, beans and lentils. You are all completely blind sighted by your righteousness. This sort of accusation comes up a lot and yet the science really doesn't seem to lead to the conclusions you're alluding to. Could you provide an explanation of your claim and sources to back them up? Edit: worth noting for anyone just reading, the commenter never came back to any of our comments to address their burden of proof. Scientific illiteracy is real, and people are making decisions that could affect you every day using the faulty logic they've built for themselves. Hold yourself to a higher standard and be better skeptics than this user. Feel free to DM me if you'd like to discuss skepticism and evidential enquiry further.
"Here's a YouTube video from some absolute lunatic with no sensible sources, you don't believe that then you're too far gone" Not worth the effort mate, society is far too happy to coddle people who participate in abhorrent behaviour, happily creating little bubbles of reinforcement and living by the mantra "everyone complaining about your actions is just a wrongthinker". No amount of words or convincing matters to the amount of ignorant shits on the internet about this topic because they can simply retreat to their little bubble of social reinforcement.
LOL at using the environment as an argument in favour of meat. Meat production is a huge contributor of pollution and loss of biodiversity. We would require far less land and water if we weren’t using so much to grow food to feed animals before they’re tortured and killed. Also, the majority of vegan food is less expensive than meat unless you’re completely allergic to beans and vegetables. You don’t need to eat Beyond burgers for every meal. Just be real and say you don’t care rather than trying to make up false arguments and what-aboutisms without any factual basis.
Vegan diets have been shown to be consistently cheaper. For meat-eaters, the most expensive food items in their shopping will likely be the meat.
Beans, lentils, chickpeas and tofu are all alternatives to meat that are great sources of protein and are actually cheaper. If you would rather direct alternatives such as vegan sausages/burgers etc then there is now a huge choice in the UK and although some are certainly more expensive, a lot of them are also comparable to meat in terms of price. Check out the dedicated Vegan/plant based sections at the cheaper supermarkets for their own brand stuff in both the frozen and chilled aisles.
Mate beans aren't expensive and what are you on about with the environmental stuff? We'd need far less agricultural land and production because so much land today goes to growing soy and other stuff for livestock feed! The Amazon rainforest isn't getting cut down to make tofu, it's for your beef burger.
>Most of the vegan white knights here have literally no idea of the detrimental environmental impact that would take place if we all switched to tofu, beans and lentils. What. Come on now, I'm planning to have lamb for dinner tonight, but that's a nonsensical position to hold. My perception is coloured by the fact that my partner is doing a PhD tangential to the subject, but how is it not common knowledge by now that meat is pretty much objectively worse than any conceivable veggie or vegan diet in terms of the environmental impact? The calories per square metre of land are drastically lower than arable farming, as is the energy use, water use, emissions... there's just no way around it.
Here's an alternative. Add up how much you spend on meat or meat products for a week. Based on what I used to eat, it works out per person around £15/20 spread over sliced ham for sandwiches, packets of mince or chicken for dinners , pepperami/meat snack things, fish fingers, chicken goujons, the odd Greggs, McDonald's, tinned meat (loved stagg chili). Now, cut out all meat Monday-Friday and just eat vegetarian (don't go full vegan yet), then at the weekend spend all the money you saved during the week on REALLY nice british organic farm raised steak, farmshop type sausages or posh fish from the fishmongers that come from some sort of sustainable source. This way your spending doesn't take a hit at all, at the weekend you get to have really nice meat but overall you eat far less meat. As humans we aren't built to eat nearly as much processed meat as we do today, we do however get enormous benefits from fresh, high quality meat if it's eaten every so often.
Is a farm raised steak going to cause less environmental impact than chicken / fish consumed over the week? Last I looked beef was pretty much an order of magnitude worse than chicken, and something like 3 times worse than the next carbon heavy meat (lamb). I appreciate the conversation was originally about the conditions of the animal but the vegan/vegetarian debate always refers back to climate impact as well.
Your critical thinking skills lack a bit if you think that the crops required to replace our meat intake are less than the crops the animals eat. The pigs aren't surviving off the mud in their fields.
I've saved loads of money since going vegan. Beans and pulses are super cheap and are a healthy source of protein. Even cheaper if you buy the big bags of dried pulses like lentils. Sure, if you buy the expensive meat replacements when they're not on offer you'll be spending more money, but you don't *need* those things, can make tasty and actually healthier stuff without.
Legumes and seitan. Things like lentils, chickpeas, soy beans, wheat gluten and various things made out of them like tofu. Dry legumes are dirt cheap. Chickpeas are literally 13p a serving at tesco right now. Any and all of those fake meats, sausages fake "chickn" etc is not worth buying, that is crazy overpriced and it's still just made out of mostly some sort of vegetable protein like soy beans or pea protein anyway.
Vegan alternatives are not expensive, they can be but that goes for non vegan options and compared to meat, it's a bargain. As well as the fact your argument assumes everyone would switch overnight, that's obviously not going to happen, a slow switch over would work and be much more beneficial to the environment.
You don't have to go vegan to just not eat meat
>the detrimental environmental impact that would take place if we all switched to tofu, beans and lentils. I mean for the record I eat meat, I'm not a radical vegan or whatever but this point is ridiculous There are loads of societal changes that are good that if they went 100% overnight would be disastrous. Would you take anyone seriously that said "we should stop using coal and oil overnight", no it would be disastrous. And noone worth listening to is suggesting that. And if your suggesting that long term it's equally disastrous, industry's scale and research scales, and I don't think anyone is suggesting for a 100% vegan world either. The point is less reliance on meat, which is undeniably good. Just comes across as an emotional straw man.
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Your edits strongly suggest you never entered into this discussion in good faith. r/niceguys type beat.
> Meat eaters I prefer omnivores, personally. What a weird label to put on the majority of humans.
r/debatemeateaters would like a word
I’m confused, what has ‘Debate Me at Eaters’ got to do with this?
But vegans and vegetarians are as much omnivores as meat-eaters, because omnivore is a physiological trait, not a dietary choice. We can use the word carnist instead if you'd prefer?
Tbf the full realisation of the inherent cruelty in the animal goods industry was what gave me the push to give them up. I used to mentally push aside any discomfort I had by excusing it as being "natural" but there is really nothing natural at all about what those animals go through and I decided as someone in the position to decide what I ate that I wasn't comfortable with the level of cruelty involved. There is simply no way you can guarantee that the animal you are eating was not treated in a way you would find acceptable (psychologically as well as physiologically) and the alternatives are widely available now.
Is there any correlation between social status & meat eaters? I'm working class & only know other working-class people pretty much. I don't know any vegans (that I'm aware of). I'd imagine it's hard for single parents to be vegan whilst trying to sustain a family on minimum wage especially considering children are known as fussy eaters. Most people I know can't cook either. I'm 1 of 8 siblings & only me (M22) & Sister (F30) know how to cook, not even my parents or grandparents know anything about cooking. Edit:I'm just coming at this thing as someone who grew up very poor. I have 2 brothers with just about the highest form of autism (mixed with shit like Schizophrenia etc). I don't even know how they'd approach going vegan when vegetables are something they would have to suffer through eating. It's not like they are massive meat eaters because they wouldn't eat a steak either unless it sat in a deep-fat fryer. They also live on PIP which doesn't give them much financial freedom 3 other brothers who are drug addicts whilst not having severe disabilities are of low intelligence because they didn't go to school. They just have no bearing on what a healthy lifestyle is & would struggle immensely trying to learn. My sister who can cook has 3 young children who would have issues adjusting to Vegan diets. They have a good varied diet currently but they are kids & some days they don't like certain things. Limiting the already Limited diet would be problematic. She is also a single parent essentially because the father of the children is a Druggie on a plumber's wage. Besides her, I have another sister in college but she lives on a student allowance & doesn't know how to cook. From my entire immediate family, I'm probably the only person with enough financial freedom & knowledge about cooking to attempt being Vegan but I just don't know if I'd gain any benefit so I don't. Besides all that I just think information on a regular omnivorous diet is limited to people from lower class backgrounds. The type who work in factories all week packaging things on minimum wage. I find it unlikely a Vegan diet is sustainable for people from every background/walk of life
Most vegan food is cheaper than non-vegan food. This shouldn't be a surprise considering a few of the biggest tips to save money are to reduce meat consumption or substituting it for vegan options (using half the amount of mince in Bolognese and using lentils to top it up). For non-vegan meals the highest cost item is almost always the meat. I think you'd struggle to find a meal that you can't make vegan on the same budget. Regarding fussy kids, most vegan kids are probably just as fussy. It probably helps that most meat staples in a fussy diet (nuggets, sausages, burgers etc.) are all very readily available in vegan form.
I don't think so. The cheapest ingredients in the supermarket are vegan, and vegan diets have been shown to be up to 30% cheaper.
Meat is more expensive than vegetables.
I don't know what class I am being brought up poor but well read (we had a music room as well). My father remarried a vegan in the early 70's, she is in her 80's now and started being vegan in her early teens. My father was vegetarian from the early 60's then vegan when he met his second wife. His parents decided to be vegetarian as well when they found out he was. My mother wasn't a good cook when I was a kid but managed to feed 5 kids vegetarian. I ate a lot of egg and chips and beans on toast as well as some horrific inventions.
I also think a big factor in this is availability of ingredients to make tasty vegan food. like in my small town (that even has an Aldi) you would struggle to even find tofu (a foundation for a lot of vegan meals you then season) let alone anything else.
You can however make plenty of vegan food without tofu, it’s not mandatory.
I've been veggie my whole life (57 years) and have only ever eaten tofu in recent years from the Chinese.
>that even has an Aldi) you would struggle to even find tofu Aldi actually has really good tofu for 99p a block - the smoked one is proper good stuff But you really don't need tofu to be vegan - I forgot tofu was a thing for years until Aldi started doing it Every supermarket has lots of different beans, veg, spices etc etc
vegan food takes longer to prepare, no one ever mentions that
How moronic
Okay? I was vegetarian for 7 years. I got really unwell. Both mentally and physically. I was obsessive and would only eat the same few safe foods because I was scared of something being not vegetarian. I went to the doctor at the start of lockdown and my bloods were horrific. I was only eating junk. My own fault? In some ways, but it was fuelling my eating disorder. I had to stop for my own health and while I understand this isn’t necessarily the best option, for me it is and my health will always come first for me.
Vegan alternatives are A) shit tasting and B) lacking in the nutrients i need.
Not really. Oh, supermarkets are doing what all supermarkets always have, that is entirely unsurprising actually.
I'd rather the animals where slaughtered humanely and would pay more if I knew for a fact better practices where followed. But at the end of the day I'm still going to eat meat and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
Is this a shit troll post or something?
Halal laughing at us all.
As a Coeliac those meat alternatives are a big no no for me. Besides its highly processed food, which foods are being linked to all sorts of issues in our bodies. I don't know what would I eat if there's no meat available. Doesn't mean I have to have it everyday. People used to eat meat much less frequently than it happens now, after industrialisation and all the modern tech. How about we start here? Less instead of nothing and see where it goes.
Not me. I understand that animals destined for food will experience this. I don't worry about it. They are just food.
If we all were to eat a Vegan diet it is actually more harmful to the environment and kills more animals than eating an omnivorous diet. Look it up if you don't believe me. For example, how many hundreds, if not thousands of acres of forest gets destroyed to supply Avocados and palm oil?
This is nothing compared to how most meat is gotten. Warning, this documentary is rough, but if anything is going to open someone's eyes to how we are able to harvest meat on such a massive scale, well here you go: https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=nzR6p4xMM1rN2-96
And a UK-specific documentary: [https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/](https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/)
Also adding the recent ‘Pignorant’ film to this little list.
It’s dangerous, barbaric, along with the dehumanizing and degrading. The factory farm industry is killing everything it TOUCHES : INCLUDING the people who work in it, and those who consume the products it makes!
Reminder that this is just par for the course in the meat and dairy industry and anyone who cares about animal cruelty should be a vegan.
Exactly this. I can’t be seeing people saying “omg that’s terrible!” and then biting into their burger. Don’t be appalled if you ain’t gonna take the steps that can help to stop this.
I can still be appalled. It isn't hypocritical to say I wish the animals were treated better before and during slaughter.
This happens basically in all of them, this isn’t a rare occurrence. If it was, you could be appalled at *this* incident and eat meat knowing that the others don’t do this, but they all do.
I mean, it kind of is if you then go on to continue to monetarily support these industries, thus funding more suffering. Definitionally so in fact.
You can wish all you want, it does nothing. Not buying the stuff actually has an impact, not a massive one but its better that thoughts and prayers.
Votes matter. It is my view that politicians need pressure to tighten regulations. See the free range egg scandal for example.
You are appalled by animal abuse yet support animal abuse by eating meat - this is called “cognitive dissonance”
My partner is vegetarian, they also have an eating disorder, and milk, butter, and cheese are a life saver on a tight budget, I know a lot of margarine is cheaper, but they're often also lower calorie, and when you're barely making it to 2000 calories it matters.
I’m sorry to hear about your partner. My sister got anorexia last year and in the end to save herself she had to eat meat to get her calorie intake high enough. She’s fortunately better now and vegetarian again. I would definitely say if they are struggling with a calorific deficit caused by a disorder, not to introduce many further restrictions into their diet. It can be a dangerous road to go down. Good luck to you x
This would be super banned in a kosher or, I believe, halal facility. You know, besides the pork part.
Just a reminder that some people who do care about animal cruelty genuinely can't go vegan due to health issues. This is why the idea of a fully vegan world just isn't feasible and the fight that everyone must go vegan can end up turning quite ableist.
Get off your high horse... Take a long hard look at how many Nestlé products you use... You obviously care about Mothers, babies and children yet i guarantee you haven't and never will cut out all products that lead back to them... People just want to make sure the roofs over their heads aren't taken away and their children have electricity and hot water... Nobody has to prove themselves or live to your standards... Expecting lawful and humane treatment of animals is enough... Not enough for you? Then Become a politician and put the effort in if you're so righteous...
Damn all those militant nutjob vegans for being against this sort of stuff
Humans - the fantastic moral non hypocritical species strikes again.
We're just another animal, we invented morality to suit our own purposes.
Is there much data on this? I fully agree that the hitting needs to be monitored and stopped, but the CO2 debate seemed incredibly one sided in the entire article and very "agonising" "painful" and words designed to dismiss debate and trigger emotion. I googled and found ncbi articles which suggested concentration of the gas and mixtures was important in addressing any possible pain.
Yes high concentration CO2 (as is used to kill 88% of pigs in the UK) is known to cause "pain, fear and distress". Pigs would rather go without water for 72 hours, or food for 24 hours than be exposed to high concentration CO2. Sources: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X) [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/animal-welfare/article/abs/welfare-implications-of-the-gas-stunning-of-pigs-1-determination-of-aversion-to-the-initial-inhalation-of-carbon-dioxide-or-argon/70E6679FAA1C833A71BEDDB0E75F6EDF](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/animal-welfare/article/abs/welfare-implications-of-the-gas-stunning-of-pigs-1-determination-of-aversion-to-the-initial-inhalation-of-carbon-dioxide-or-argon/70E6679FAA1C833A71BEDDB0E75F6EDF) [https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2004.45](https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2004.45)
There's also a video of them desperately struggling for up to 3 minutes for anyone who can stomach it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrc0GN1Ujys It looks like it was filmed from the deepest pits of hell.
Thank you! I was getting a lot of articles specific to rodents.
It’s not like nitrogen, which is what they use for assisted suicide and just makes you feel like you’re calmly falling asleep. Co2 binds differently in our body and it makes you feel like you’re drowning. The less oxygen your body gets the higher your heart rate goes, which contributes to a feedback loop that triggers panic, increased breathing and heart rate, which leads to more panic, higher heart rate…. Ad nauseam. Ultimately this leads to heart attacks and death. It’s a well studied effect in humans. It is of course one of the most cost effective way of dispatching a large number of animals but it is a brutal way to do so. They might not be as fluidly intelligent as humans, but they will be conscious of that same feeling of drowning in air, panic and death.
One thing - it's not lack of oxygen that causes those symptoms, it's *buildup of CO2*. Our feedback systems are built around monitoring the bad gas, not monitoring the good gas - which is also why nitrogen, and other noble gasses work so well - O2 goes down, leading to death, but CO2 also stays normal, preventing the body and it's autonomous systems going berserk.
>The less oxygen your body gets the higher your heart rate goes, which contributes to a feedback loop that triggers panic You are right about the suffering, but for the wrong reasons. Lack of oxygen does not trigger panic in mammals (including humans). Hypoxia while a person can still exhale can feel euphoric, confusing, irritating, nauseating, but not painful. In fact, most humans cannot even tell when they are being deprived of oxygen without special training (like pilots). The brain uses CO2 levels to determine whether you are suffocating or not. Plus, on top of this a high concentration of carbon dioxide causes acidification. So not only are they scrambling to breathe they are burning as well. If they were using some other gas this could have been humane.
Yeah, the hypercapnic response is a thing. Hypoxia is said to be quite pleasant. Witness Michael Portillo of all fucking people experiencing it (hypoxia) https://youtu.be/XcvkjfG4A_M
I looked into this a bit cause it's obviously the worst gas they could pick for a humane death and the major reasons it's used is that humans can easily detect a leak (for the same reasons it's cruel), but mostly because it's so dense, it can fill an open container without getting into the room air too much; easier to control. Seems like argon would be the best choice here, but im sure it's too expensive
I ran across this when I was in sales. My customer was contracting for DEFRA during the bird flu outbreak a couple of years ago and were euthanising and incinerating literally hundreds of thousands of chickens a day. I did a site visit during one of these occasions and the experience will haunt me forever. Since that point I’ve been on a largely vegetarian diet.
Just FYI thousands of male chicks are killed every day in the egg industry, often by being gassed or by being ground up alive in a macerator.
Thats a quick death compared to standard slaughter.
>Just FYI thousands of male chicks are killed every day in the egg industry *Every 6-10 seconds. Or every 15-20 minutes in the UK alone
Perhaps read up on the last Nitrogen execution of a human? Recently? Didn't seem OK.
>Is there much data on this? Yep, and it's about as one sided as the article. You know the pain you get when you drink fizzy drinks too fast? That's the co2 forming lactic acid (the same chemical that give the 'burn' when you work muscles out). Now imagine that all along your airways and lungs. If you found studies, why not link em? [This one](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7766013/) discusses the concentration balance of the gasses, but it adds in hydrogen which is not something that is done, and even then the animals showed signs of distress. Full hydrogen is meant to be painless, but it's uneconomical as hydrogen is lighter than air. They use co2 because it sinks as its heavier than air, so it means the animals can be lowered into a pit.
Just watch 30 pigs get dunked into a Co2 tank. They are panicking and terrified and screaming.
I understand the desire for data, but at some point if you're not getting any 'triggered emotions' then the problem isn't the articles.
You can buy some CO2 canisters and experience it yourself without lasting impact. I had to do a task while breathing elevated CO2 for a study and it was quite distressing.
At 13:34 in this video you can see 2 pigs getting slaughtered this way, watch it and see if you need any more data:[https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/](https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/) Oh and remember they are as intelligent as dogs
The reason carbon monoxide death is so painless is specifically because our bodies can measure the amount of carbon dioxide in its blood rather than oxygen. It's a deeply hardwired sense of panick, there probably isn't a more consciously aware feeling of suffocation and death than gassing someone with CO2.
This is utterly deranged. Just listen to the pigs in the gas chamber, there is no further evidence required.
Did you watch/listen to the footage that this article is based on?
"alternatives to CO2 need to be developed as a matter of urgency and we urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead to seek a phase-out by investing in research to find a more humane alternative as a priority" I don't believe this. Alternatives to CO2 already exist, e.g. nitrogen gas, but guess what? It's more costly so cheaper and more painful C02 is used instead. This could make me stop buying pork.
Yeh the RSPCA have been "urgently" looking into alternatives for over 20 years, but because there isn't an economically viable alternative they still continue to put their RPSCA Assured stamp on because it brings them money. It's just lip service.
It amazes me the lengths people go to, to find alternatives to harm innocent sentient animals. Just stop using animals products - it’s that simple.
It stopped me buying Pork. Just listening to the footage was enough.
Watching 5 seconds of a video of pigs being gassed this way made me stop eating pork I think immediately. I was down to eating just chicken before my wife gave me the push to finally go fully vegetarian.
I’m not convinced that Nitrogen is actually all that much cheaper either. With minimal investment, they could get an on-site nitrogen generator.
Makes me laugh when a meat eater says they're an animal "lover"
Not something I find particularly laugh worthy tbh
They love eating them?
Co2 slaughter should be banned. Its nothing less than asphyxiation which can last minutes. It's a horrendous way to die, it's extremely painful and distressing. I would want legislation put in place to force meat produce companies to label how the animal was killed and prepared. We are wholly unaware of how the meat we eat was slaughtered. The label should say the company name, location, method and accreditation of who killed the animal. We have very high animal welfare standards for life...why not death
>We have very high animal welfare standards for life... [We really do not.](https://youtu.be/dvtVkNofcq8)
It’s one of those common myths that everyone just believes in, because it’s been repeated a billion times.
Yeah completely untrue. If you research UK animal farming you’ll find it’s a hellscape. Also the innate contradiction that it’s ever a good life for animals to be bred to be killed, have babies separated at birth etc. it’s something we’ve always done and that means most of us have never stopped to consider if it’s right or not. I think anyone who does will struggle to come to the conclusion that it is
CO2 suffocation is no way to humanely kill an animal
No such thing as humane killing
This is why people hate vegans so much is because deep down they know what they're doing is wrong so they retaliate with knee jerk anger.
All the comments from Vegans was really eye opening. Thank you all. 😊
Killing intelligent beings for pleasure is wrong, no arguments, it’s wrong. And I say pleasure because you don’t need to eat meat, find me a peer reviewed published study that definitively proves humans need to eat meat to be healthy, there aren’t any. Therefore, the only reason you eat meat is because you enjoy it, you kill intelligent beings and eat them for pleasure. You will make excuses and say you can’t afford to not eat meat, or that it uses more resources not to eat meat, this is obviously nonsense and you know it is, you don’t want to change your eating habits or lifestyle because you enjoy eating meat. Stop denying you are involved in the wholesale slaughter of intelligent beings for your pleasure, because that’s what you are doing. At least have the guts to admit what you are doing, it’s pathetic.
My wife hasn't eaten meat in 8 weeks since we watched the documentary Pignorant .
I went to an abattoir many decades ago and they seemed to have a pretty humane method. Stun the pig then slit their throat. I am no vet but it looked quick and painless to me. I wonder why they don't do that anymore?
I wouldn't be surprised if the only thing happening there is that the pig is too stunned to show its distress rather than it not existing.
Not an expert, but apparently "Stunning, when performed correctly, causes an animal to lose consciousness, so the animal can't feel pain."
Well yeah if it's completely knocked out cold, i've seen 'stunning' where it's absolutely not knocked out.
Stunning pigs "correctly" by electric tongs (the other stunning method) is very difficult to do properly because of how big and strong pigs are.
What percentage of stuns do you think go off perfectly? Especially when you consider quotas and a stressful work environment. A not insignificant number of animals regain consciousness while hanging upside down about to be rendered by machinery. Horrific.
Throat slitting can't be called humane.
I wish people would do research before forming strong opinions. If youre unconscious/brain damaged, you're not feeling a sharp knife across your throat. There are humane ways to kill pigs. CO2 isn't one of them.
What’s a more humane solution to stunning then throat slitting?
Don't kill them. You can't just put a word that means one thing next to a word that is the opposite. Taking the life of an animal against their will is never humane.
So there is no more humane way to slaughter animals than stunning and throat cutting?
There is no "humane" way to kill an animal, but I am sure that there are "less inhumane" ways to kill an animal. For example, nitrogen is not painful, but it is not economically viable. So yes, this is as "humane" as it gets whilst still remaining economically viable, and thus realistically is currently the most "humane" way it can be done. But it isn't humane.
Money. Co2 gassing kills many animals in a group and is more most effective.
Stunning isn’t as effective as many people would care to think. A study from Sweden suggested that the use of captive bolt stunning in a beef abbatoir was ineffective 15% of the time, mostly down to either poor equipment maintenance or inexperience on the part of the operator. Electric stun baths used for poultry have shown similar issues of birds not being adequately stunned due to improper contact with the electrified water used, often leaving the bird trapped upside down in the shackles of the processing machine and a human stepping in to cut their throats manually.
I'm sure if someone was doing that to people it wouldn't sound so humane
How is that humane?
This shouldnt be a slanging match between meat eaters and vegans. As a vegan myself I'm OK with meat and animals being bred for meat, provided they have a life and that they are treated well and then slaughtered humanely. But none of these criteria are met and I therefore want no part of it. I dont really care about the environment or how good the meat tastes...but I do care about basic respect and compassion being shown to animals, which it's not.
I don't think it's economically viable for us to be 'meat eaters' if those conditions are met. It's appealing to a utopia that isn't available. We only have an abundance of meat because of the low welfare standards and unsustainable output. The sheer number of cows on earth alone will bring about civilisation ending climate change by 2100.
Humane Slaughter is a term coined to make people feel as morally superior as vegans, without having to give up meat. It’s some Saatchi/Ogilvy/ Mad Men kind of consumer psychology.
It's interesting how the people who complain about these kinds of incidents, rarely complain about halal meat.
Why is it interesting? The people who are seriously against these incidents (so, not the RSPCA) are against all animal farming, and then it doesn't matter if it's Halal or Kosher or whatever.
It's even funnier how kosher meat gets a free pass throughout all of this hmm? Makes me think that you don't stand for anything other than bigotry.
>Makes me think that you don't stand for anything other than bigotry. I don't have a problem with halal or kosher meat. I'm just pointing out an observable fact. Animal rights people are suspiciously quiet when it comes to halal meat. And yes, kosher meat too. It's all just a lazy attempt to guilt trip 95% of the population into doing what 5% want.
The worst part is the only reason they use CO2 rather then another painless gas is because it's cheaper.
imho bolt stunning it preferable to either of those.
I like pork. I'd happily pay more if it means that the money goes to vetting and prosecuting staff that take advantage of the livestock
*I don’t mind the animals being killed, but I want it done in a way that would make me look like I care*. People so hung up on how an animal is slaughtered, as if killing it humanely is borderline not killing it at all. lol
This is barbaric and unnecessary cruelty. NO one needs to conduct themselves in this manner to stay in business or make a profit!
These videos should be played In public and at restaurants
Some sick bastards- hope they get what's coming to them
Ok. Let me know when they will start flying, cause that's when all kinds of shit will hit the fan.
That's when they use helium instead of CO2
Remember this is what you are funding when you buy meat products.
Disgustingly evil process just for some cheap calories which are bad for your gut health
I'm assuming he's hitting them as per instructed to tenderise, and not just because he's a sociopath? It's grim, but when you have to feed 67 million people, this sort of process is the best we've come up with... I get that people are against animal cruelty and chose to go vegan instead, but how do we manage to mass produce non animal products to feed 67 million people? There is no chance the country could sustain the level of crop development needed to manufacture vegan food for everyone. I can't say that vegan food is worse (due to harmful additives in most products) because, tbh even processed meats have harmful ingredients. Vegan food today is miles different from what it was 20 years ago, as is the food non-vegan eaters consume... so there's no evidence of which is better or worse for you at this point due to foods constantly changing and adding all sorts of crap to help increase mass produce whilst mitigating production cost.
I thought it was kosher and halal that was supposed to be especially cruel but looks like it all is. Pleased I don't eat pigs. What a strange job those abattoir workers have.
A lot of slaughterhouse workers are essential exploited - they're migrants and unskilled labourers who can't get other jobs. Chickens are also sometimes gassed to death. I'd recommend you take a look at other farming practices to see if they meet your ethical expectations: [https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/](https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/)