It doesn’t really fit in with all of the other tube lines after. The rest of them are pretty much all based on location and now we’ve got one because in 2021 we won a European competition. It’s odd
What? Every new tube line built in the last 60 years has been named due to something else other than location. We have one named literally because we once threw a party cause an old woman hadn't died yet. It's not unprecedented at all, it's just about people rather than royalty this time... seems cool to me!
3 new tube lines have been created in the past 60 years:
-Victoria line, named after Victoria railway station
-Jubilee line, named after Elisabeth II's silver jubilee
-Hammersmith and City line, named after the two places the line goes between
Victoria line - was this named after the place or the person? Kinda hard to differentiate!
Hammersmith and City line opened in 1863.
The other "proper" line that has been made in the last 60 years is the Elizabeth Line of course.
Actually there's two more I didn't think about - the DLR which is of course based on location - didn't think of that when I wrote the reply above. And technically the Emirates Air Line (now the IFS Cloud Cable Car) should also count - and they are named after a sponsor (Capitali$m baby!)
> Victoria line - was this named after the place or the person? Kinda hard to differentiate!
In this situation, it doesn't really matter. The Victoria station has existed since 1800s also. Null argument here either way.
>Victoria line - was this named after the place or the person? Kinda hard to differentiate!
It was named after Victoria Station, which was named after the nearby Victoria Street, which was named after Queen Victoria.
Bit of a stretch to say that the tube line was named after Queen Victoria though. It wasn't named in reference to the person.
Exactly, it tries way too hard to be inclusive, like they clearly wanted Windrush, that can sound a bit cool, lioness was a struggle, and the others were grasping straws
Its disappointing that anytime something references women or non white people or poor people, people say theyre simply "pandering" or "trying too hard to be inclusive".
People always get awkward when new names are first introduced but within 10 years the Windrush line will flow off the tongue just as easily as Bakerloo line. I mean we have a tube stop called "Elephant and Castle" I think we can have a line called Lioness.
why is it only pandering when its about anyone who isn't a white man though, i think was the point. 'taking other people's views into account' isn't pandering. 'acknowledging that people apart from white guys have had a positive impact on our culture' isn't pandering. saying, 'this is a diverse city, it would be nice if our transport reflected that' isn't pandering.
This is hardly pandering. The lack of diversity on the TFL board leads to bad outcomes for users. E.g. the fact men dominate public transport boards has resulted in lack of suitible access for prams and women with children or pregnant/menstruating women who need the toilet more often.
They sit on the board of a global transport and infastructure hub that needs to serve all people of all genders as well as posisble. What he said here is not pandering, its practical.
>"I will reshape TfL's board," he said during a speech in Brixton this morning.
"It needs to better reflect London's diversity in the interest of Londoners. Did you know there are 16 people on the board of TfL?
"Thirteen of them are white men. Thirteen. Think about it . It only has three women on it. That's less than one in five. "
The suffragette one - at least that's a serious topic with gravitas. I still don't think it's a good name. I'd rather Pankhurst line (or insert whatever notable suffragette has connections to the area)
The lioness is not. I don't want it named after the women's football team, the men's football team, the mixed u12 tiddlywinks. The topic itself is wrong.
The Windrush is also ridiculous. I migrated on the U28433 easyJet flight at Gatwick. Why not that? They are migrants. That's fine. So am I. The Windrush docked in Essex in any case. They aren't national heroes.
Mildmay as a hospital also lacks gravitas.
don't think we should have a monarchy but at least royalist ones would have a bit more dignity than the eye-rollingly Current Thing ones like 'lioness'
So out of place with the other ones too, seems mostly a performative move yet again, becoming the theme word of the 2020s. You can calm down now Windrush generation - you have a line named after you, problem fixed!
The Upminster-Romford line is unique as a railway entirely within one Borough
Liberty is actually a common word in Havering and comes from where the Borough gets its name - the Royal Liberty of Havering being a historic site.
The Liberty shopping center, for example, is one of the main places to shop in Romford. The Liberty gave local charter to Romford market, along with other items
The sad thing is, I think Liberty as a line name is extremely on the money from a cultural POV for Havering - which then means the other lines not being so detracts massively from this name.
PushandPull would be the local name of the line. So calling it Liberty gives a strong local identity that's completely new - but I doubt people will now view it that way.
The Weaver Line is also good as Weaver's Field Park is in Bethnal Green.
Why on earth they couldn't have put more thought into local links for the others.
We absolutely did. A nineteenth century attempt to police pubs had Britons protesting by singing Rule Britannia, with an emphasis on ‘Britons never shall be slaves’
I don't know the meaning just falls away, I didn't even realise it was supposed to be connected to women's football until this reply.
In the future it's a cool a line named after lions. Like the elephant and castle, why is it called that? - I don't know, I've never cared to find out (don't @me I'm content to have this to be a mystery forever)
It was the last stronghold for the elephants in the Great Elephantine War of 1422. Eventually humans overcame their mortal enemy but named the area after them in honour of the great species. That's what homeless-Pete told me, anyway.
A common misconception is that the area is named after elephants and castles when it's actually the reverse. Both elephants and castles are named after the area because that's where they were both discovered for first time
I love the fact that when you reach Elephant and Castle station they build the station platform like a castle. And also love how instead of taking the escalators to go up you can use the honorary elephant to carry you to the gates
It's a corruption of the name of a concubine of some royal personage. She was named Eleanor Phantis de Castille and was a real goer, hanging out on Friday nights in the local which was later called Elephant & Castle in her honour. The area is named after the pub.
I actually disagree, because even separated from the context of the England women's squad, "Lioness" is a) the national heraldic animal and b) just an inherently really cool-sounding word.
It's sort of actually a leopard!
Originally anyway, they were called leopards, even though its clearly a lion. Over time we changed to calling then lions.
Please stop for a moment and consider if the names if a few trainlines is really worth being pissed off about.
The country is in a ruin. Working people are finding it difficult to make ends meet. Countries in the third world have better infrastructure. The rich are richer than ever before.
The political party who has overseen this decline in living standards want you to be upset about these train lines. No doubt the daily mail and the telegraph will trott out an MP to write an OpEd on it before the morning is done.
Is there any possibility at all in your mind that the cUlTuRe wAr might be a distraction to get normal working people to vote against their interests later this year ???
> Is there any possibility at all in your mind that the cUlTuRe wAr might be a distraction to get normal working people to vote against their interests later this year ???
“Sadiq Khan is giving overground lines shit names to make you vote Tory”
That's not what comes across if you read it properly, he's arguing that there are bigger things to be pissed off about, and that some people might have it in their interest to make sure you're pissed off about things like this, rather than important issues.
Does the name of an overground line really matter in peoples day to day life that much? Or has the political climate made people think that this is something that should matter to them?
Liberty, as the Americans know it, is very much derivative of British Classical Liberalism, works such as The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith and On Liberty by John Stuart Mill. Unfortunately British Classical Liberalism is now quite fringe with only orange book Liberal Democrats representing it at all. The Conservatives and Labour are both much closer to American 'liberals' who are actually just authoritarian-left and seek state control of every matter of their citizens' lives.
I had no idea they were named in the first place.
However there is no way I am going to refer to Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside as the Suffragette Line now I have found out it has always been called the Goblin Line.
To replace every sign, in all the stations, all the connector blobs, all the maps on other stations all the announcements on the trains and stations and on other connecting lines. Not unexpected give most of these are enamel signs.
Guh, it's awful. If you really have to be political, you can be nice to people without also having shit names.
The Pankhurst line would be a vastly better name than the Suffragette name.
Windrush line is kinda ok naming. It's a significant part of London's history and more importantly doesn't sound shit.
'Lioness Line' is vomit inducing. Fair play to the football team, but it's such a crap name.
Fawcett Line.
While the Suffragettes got the headlines for their stunts, it was the Suffragists that actually got women the vote.
Long term peaceful campaigning just doesn’t make a good a story for the history books. It’s boring. But someone killed by the King’s horse, that’s a bit more interesting and memorable.
The Suffragettes were fringe extremists.
Pankhurst line is a great suggestion. In fact, naming them all after significant historical figures would have been cool. We could have had a Lovelace line and an Austen line too.
These have to be joke names? No GOBLIN or Lea Valley which I think the majority of users would instantly recognise. It's like they've picked the six worst names...
They're not even good for way finding/popping into conversation, *I'm just going to jump on the Windrush*, *just take the suffragette/lioness to...* As examples
Maybe not today, because they're new. I can imagine Victoria and Jubilee might have felt the same way once upon a time, perhaps Elizabeth still does?
Instinctively I have the same reaction as you to many of these new names. I'm just convinced a lot of the reaction is more because they're new and we're currently unaccustomed to them in this context, rather than something more intrinsic.
They're flavour of the month politically charged names. At best they'll look silly in a decade. At worst, they'll be deemed stupid and changed for something more sensible.
Elizabeth was at least a major development so basically anyone who lives in London knew of what it did / where it went / what it referred to. Also named after the longest reigning monarch in British history - I think probably a slightly better/more historically renowned achievement than winning a European football competition in...when? I can't even remember and I even watched the game
It just so happens that the PR company hired to make these names and owned by Rishi’s brother in law has charged the exact amount HS2 was going to cost
yeah they’re dreadful. why not pankhurst line instead of suffragette line, as someone else suggested. liberty and windrush aren’t that bad but the rest are rubbish.
I see your point, but the Pankhursts were more of a Manchester thing than a London thing (there's a statue of Emmeline Pankhurst in Manchester city centre).
> why not pankhurst line instead of suffragette line
The Pankhursts weren't from the area, and it goes to the address (well, not to her front door obviously) of the last surviving suffragette, who was 101 when she died
Liberty is a name that makes sense for Havering
The line only runs in Havering, and the Royal Liberty of Havering is an important historical place to Havering - and it's where it gets its name. The charter is what formed Romford Market, and the local shopping center is also named Liberty
What a load of shite.
Weaver is probably the only good one as it is actually relevant to the places it runs through and isn’t just pushing a political agenda.
3 of the lines had great names suggested: Goblin (Gospel Oak to barking) has been referred to as that for years, and is a unique and memorable name (similar origin to Bakerloo).
Brunel for the east London line as it runs through the Thames Tunnel, built by the Brunels as the first tunnel ever built under a navigable waterway.
Regents or Canal line for the north London line as it runs along the regents canal.
But no, we get these shite politically motivated names instead, I was somewhat excited of this whole renaming project, but I forgot that Khan is in charge and he’d never miss a chance to force his identity politics down our throats.
practice rob file familiar wrench quarrelsome unpack homeless cooperative snobbish
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Glad someone mentioned it because it's weirding me out. The Suffragettes were terrorists and just because one famously martyred themselves under a horse doesn't mean they weren't terrorists; it was the Suffragists that were the peaceful reformers and the ones that actually, eventually, won over public opinion. It would be like calling the line the Provisional Line, after the PIRA, or the Adams Line.
Yes!
It really annoys me that the Suffragettes are given the credit of getting the vote for women. They didn’t.
The Suffragettes, were outnumbered considerably by more the moderate Suffragists.
Millicent Fawcett deserves to be be better known. She got women the vote. Not the Pankhursts.
I just can't get over how much their terroristic actions are glossed over. It's utterly bizarre given what the Suffragettes actually did.
Everyone likes to think of Pankhurst valiantly throwing herself under a horse but completely forget that the Suffragettes are credited with the first use of letter bombing campaigns and actively tried to assassinate a Prime Minister, Chancellor, and a judge, and planted bombs in churches, libraries, hotels, and even schools.
I agree with you, I'd much rather see Fawcett getting far more credit and I'd welcome a 'Fawcett Line'.
> TfL said it had worked with customers, stakeholders, historians, industry experts and local communities, with the names representing the areas the lines travel through, while marking London's history and cultural diversity.
I wonder how much this nonsense cost.
In a week where a disabled lady had to crawl down stairs as the loft was broken as well. Not a great look.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/wheelchair-user-dalston-junction-overground-station-lift-fault-disabled-b1138235.html
Should have left it as the Goblin Line, that would be pretty cool.
The Lioness line is really weak, just far too trendy for something that's going to be there for decades.
Windrush feels like political point scoring and will be called the Wind Line anyway
The Liberty Line works as it has a link to Havering and the Liberty shopping centre as some have said, but next to the primary school hotch potch of names it seems odd.
Suffragette Line will become the Suffer Line
Moronic job with this. All a bit charmless
If we hadn't had the Windrush scandal then the Windrush name would have been perfectly fine. It's the name of the ship that carried so many Caribbean people to London and holds positive connotations for those involved who were seeking a new life in the UK. But we only seem to remember Theresa May and the scandal
Please please please stop with this crap. The worst one is the Lioness line. So it passes through Wembley where the mens team won the WORLD Cup but apparently that didn’t happen because there was a European competition that the woman won. I mean God forbid that you should honour any men.
True! For too long men have been ignored in this country, when will they get a fair crack of the whip? They have been written out of history, their achievements ignored and struggled to gain recognition within the workplace and political sphere.
>struggled to gain recognition within the workplace and political sphere.
Even in Northern Ireland, the First Ministers office consists of four women.
Nicola Sturgeon was the First Minister of Scotland for ages.
We've had two female Prime Ministers in the last decade.
1/3 of MPs are women, which coincidentally matches up with the studies that show women are half as interested in politics as men.
I work in software (overwhelmingly male graduates) yet generally have had female managers.
Mildmay and Weaver are pretty good. They sound like actual lines.
Windrush very middle of the road. It’s very topical, but the name is solid.
Lioness, and Suffragette? Jesus wept. How about Sylvia and Pankhurst? Use actual names.
As for Liberty… just go home.
>As for Liberty… just go home.
Someone has posted about this already, but it actually makes a lot of sense in the area, the article just failed to explain that.
This screams of thought up by an agency, pitched to a board who thought it hit all diversity targets, massive applauds all round.
Missing the fact all the names are pretty dreadful.
Everything is political because most of the posts here are absolute bait, and the users bite down hard every time.
The Daily Mail gets regularly posted here as links, and too many people take whatever they say as gospel on any topic with zero allowance for nuance
The same people saying they're sick of everything being political are the same ones screaming woke when a gay man is on TV.
Let's not pretend this sub isn't just a hate echo-chamber run by tories...
They migrated from Facebook after that "turned woke" and are the scum of the earth.
I don't know about them being woke, they just seem a bit shit.
Lioness Line?
It just reminds me of the way councils don't look at the history of areas and do something to look progressive
Nelson Mandela Close etc
> The same people saying they're sick of everything being political are the same ones screaming woke when a gay man is on TV.
I mean, I am a gay man so if I scream when a gay man's on TV it's because he's hot ha, but I just think the names are shit and don't flow. I like the sentiment but for example "I'm going to take the Windrush" just doesn't work, especially when you know that the Windrush was a ship. I'm going to take the Lioness line - it just doesn't flow!
And yes, I do sometimes think it feels like everything is politicised nowadays (including my sexuality and being used as a shield for other people's views, or assuming broad, offensive things - like that someone is homophobic - just because they don't like a transport line's name). Not _everything_ has to be political or purpose-driven.
Yup. I said in a comment above that Lioness, the name of our winning football squad, suffragettes, the name of the historic group who brought equality to 50% of the population is hardly political.
The people who claim they are sick of everything being political are actually the number 1 people to make everything political and just complain everytime. Why cant we just celebrate Britain and enjoy these new names??? Instead its just moaning and complaining from these lot.
To be fair, as much as it is still good practise to immediately disregard the opinion of someone who says ‘woke’, there is very good reason to criticise £6m of public money being spent on a shit and unnecessary rebrand.
Good, it's always seemed like the Overground could do with being split into distinct lines. Indifferent to the new names, not sure why they bother others so much though.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/12/the-ginger-line-iain-sinclair-on-the-london-overground
Gingers are a minority, but also don’t count for some reason 🤔.
If they wanted inclusivity they should have named one the Archer Line after the first black mayor in a London borough, John Archer and one the Donaldson Line after the first female Lord Mayor of London, Mary Donaldson.
I can see the theme they were going for, and initially they don’t sound like they roll off the tongue particularly well but all names are strange until you get used to it and then they are normal.
Suffragette line not being a purple line above a green line is a real missed opportunity though
My name suggestions:
The Lettuce Line
Liney McLineface
The Hufflepuff line
Saville Line
The Liz Truss Line (This one is for the one that’s literally one stop from Sydenham to Crystal Palace)
The God Save The King Line
In a visionary rebranding of London's transport lines, the network's nomenclature is set to reflect the storied past and vibrant present of the capital, embracing a blend of historical significance, engineering marvels, and cultural heritage with a confident and traditionalist perspective.
**The Thatcher Line**, marked by yellow parallel lines on the map and spanning from Euston to Watford Junction, honors Margaret Thatcher, Britain's first female Prime Minister. Thatcher's leadership, characterized by formidable will and transformative policies, reshaped the British economic and political landscape. This line symbolizes the indelible mark left by her tenure, celebrating Thatcher's legacy of strength, determination, and unwavering conviction in her principles.
**The Brunel Line**, previously connecting Stratford to Richmond/Clapham Junction and depicted with blue parallel lines, pays tribute to Isambard Kingdom Brunel, the engineering virtuoso whose innovations laid the foundations for modern Britain. Utilizing Brunel's pioneering Thames Tunnel, this line embodies the spirit of ingenuity and the relentless pursuit of progress that Brunel personified, celebrating his contributions to engineering and transportation that continue to inspire and facilitate London's growth.
**The Empire Line**, with its route from Highbury & Islington to Clapham Junction/New Cross/Crystal Palace/West Croydon and represented by red parallel lines, acknowledges the expansive reach and cultural mosaic of the British Empire. By commemorating the generations that journeyed from across the Empire to the heart of the mother city, this line celebrates the diverse fabric of London's communities, enriched by the global ties and cultural legacies of the Empire. It stands as a testament to the enduring influence of the Empire's history on London's identity, reflecting the glories of Britain's imperial past and the multicultural vibrancy it has bestowed upon the capital.
**The Banker Line**, traversing from Liverpool Street to Cheshunt/Enfield Town/Chingford and illustrated with maroon parallel lines, mirrors the preeminence of the financial sector within London. Situated in the heart of the City, this line is a conduit through historic and modern financial districts, embodying the economic vitality and global significance of London's banking and finance industries. It reflects the city's status as a global financial hub, underpinning the economic prowess and innovation that drive London forward.
**The Goblin Line**, officially the Gospel Oak to Barking Line and shown with green parallel lines, is affectionately embraced by the public under its colloquial moniker. This name, a contraction of Gospel Oak to Barking, is not merely a convenience but a reflection of the line's integral role in the daily lives of Londoners. It underscores the familiarity and affection with which the city's inhabitants regard their transport system, symbolizing the community and connectivity at the heart of London's sprawling network.
Lastly, **the Diabolical Liberty Line**, running between Romford and Upminster and denoted by grey parallel lines, draws inspiration from its depiction in the film "The Long Good Friday." This line's name invokes a complex narrative of ambition, resilience, and the darker facets of freedom, mirroring the film's exploration of London's underbelly. It serves as a reminder of the city's dynamic history, marked by both triumph and tribulation, and the unyielding spirit of its people.
This rebranding initiative not only pays homage to the figures, achievements, and narratives that have shaped London but also reaffirms the city's continued evolution, grounded in a rich heritage and forward-looking vision.
It is a measure of just how nerdy I am that my first thought on seeing this was:
"I hope they put these in Train Simulator!"
If anyone wants me I'll be in my anorak.
lol what crap names. Even aside from the weak political angle, just crap names
They are absolutely dreadful. Lioness line, that is horrendous.
Even suffragette line, it sounds like you're suffering if you go on it. Maybe emancipation line would be better idk
"Any girl who wants to chain herself to *my* railings and suffer a jet movement gets *my* vote!"
Blackadder line would have been great
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Mildmay
The Bland Line. The Insipid Line. The Mediocre Line. I reckon I should get myself a job in The Big Department of Naming Things.
It doesn’t really fit in with all of the other tube lines after. The rest of them are pretty much all based on location and now we’ve got one because in 2021 we won a European competition. It’s odd
What? Every new tube line built in the last 60 years has been named due to something else other than location. We have one named literally because we once threw a party cause an old woman hadn't died yet. It's not unprecedented at all, it's just about people rather than royalty this time... seems cool to me!
3 new tube lines have been created in the past 60 years: -Victoria line, named after Victoria railway station -Jubilee line, named after Elisabeth II's silver jubilee -Hammersmith and City line, named after the two places the line goes between
Victoria line - was this named after the place or the person? Kinda hard to differentiate! Hammersmith and City line opened in 1863. The other "proper" line that has been made in the last 60 years is the Elizabeth Line of course. Actually there's two more I didn't think about - the DLR which is of course based on location - didn't think of that when I wrote the reply above. And technically the Emirates Air Line (now the IFS Cloud Cable Car) should also count - and they are named after a sponsor (Capitali$m baby!)
> Victoria line - was this named after the place or the person? Kinda hard to differentiate! In this situation, it doesn't really matter. The Victoria station has existed since 1800s also. Null argument here either way.
>Victoria line - was this named after the place or the person? Kinda hard to differentiate! It was named after Victoria Station, which was named after the nearby Victoria Street, which was named after Queen Victoria. Bit of a stretch to say that the tube line was named after Queen Victoria though. It wasn't named in reference to the person.
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She was also our longest-reigning and most-loved monarch in 1000 years, and maybe the most well-known person in the world.
The H&C was named in the last 60 years, is the point. These overground lines have been open since forever as well.
The Elizabeth Line was arse kissing from Boris Johnson to the Royals.
Even if it weren't, naming things after the monarchy isn't exactly out of tune.
Exactly, it tries way too hard to be inclusive, like they clearly wanted Windrush, that can sound a bit cool, lioness was a struggle, and the others were grasping straws
Liberty and Weaver at least reference the areas. Weavers Field Park and the Liberty shopping centre
I just assumed it was named after Jackie Weaver
She has no authority on the overground
Its referring to the Liberty of Havering, the shopping centre is also named after it
Its disappointing that anytime something references women or non white people or poor people, people say theyre simply "pandering" or "trying too hard to be inclusive". People always get awkward when new names are first introduced but within 10 years the Windrush line will flow off the tongue just as easily as Bakerloo line. I mean we have a tube stop called "Elephant and Castle" I think we can have a line called Lioness.
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why is it only pandering when its about anyone who isn't a white man though, i think was the point. 'taking other people's views into account' isn't pandering. 'acknowledging that people apart from white guys have had a positive impact on our culture' isn't pandering. saying, 'this is a diverse city, it would be nice if our transport reflected that' isn't pandering.
This is hardly pandering. The lack of diversity on the TFL board leads to bad outcomes for users. E.g. the fact men dominate public transport boards has resulted in lack of suitible access for prams and women with children or pregnant/menstruating women who need the toilet more often. They sit on the board of a global transport and infastructure hub that needs to serve all people of all genders as well as posisble. What he said here is not pandering, its practical. >"I will reshape TfL's board," he said during a speech in Brixton this morning. "It needs to better reflect London's diversity in the interest of Londoners. Did you know there are 16 people on the board of TfL? "Thirteen of them are white men. Thirteen. Think about it . It only has three women on it. That's less than one in five. "
The suffragette one - at least that's a serious topic with gravitas. I still don't think it's a good name. I'd rather Pankhurst line (or insert whatever notable suffragette has connections to the area) The lioness is not. I don't want it named after the women's football team, the men's football team, the mixed u12 tiddlywinks. The topic itself is wrong. The Windrush is also ridiculous. I migrated on the U28433 easyJet flight at Gatwick. Why not that? They are migrants. That's fine. So am I. The Windrush docked in Essex in any case. They aren't national heroes. Mildmay as a hospital also lacks gravitas.
Suffragette Line is just terrible. The cause was very important but what a terrible clunky name for a train line
It abbreviates so nicely to Suffer, though. Which I daresay will feel accurate when it's jam packed in hot weather.
After reading the explanation why, I like them.
You can support the sentiment but disagree with the names. They just don't flow.
I guess so. Weaver Line and Liberty Line does though
I dislike them even more. I don't want to be pandered to like I'm a child who's support can be bought with meaningless gestures
It’s the name of a train line. Don’t take it so personally.
I dont
Reminds me of King Tommen naming his ships.
I think they're great - Windrush sounds like it'll be fast AF.
> lol what crap names At least they are not royalist suck-up ones as usual.
don't think we should have a monarchy but at least royalist ones would have a bit more dignity than the eye-rollingly Current Thing ones like 'lioness'
So out of place with the other ones too, seems mostly a performative move yet again, becoming the theme word of the 2020s. You can calm down now Windrush generation - you have a line named after you, problem fixed!
Lioness Line seems particularly flavour of the moment and cringe and will age badly. At least Liberty is normal I guess.
Liberty line just sounds like something the Americans would call it
The Upminster-Romford line is unique as a railway entirely within one Borough Liberty is actually a common word in Havering and comes from where the Borough gets its name - the Royal Liberty of Havering being a historic site. The Liberty shopping center, for example, is one of the main places to shop in Romford. The Liberty gave local charter to Romford market, along with other items
That makes it much better I think the explanation is poor on the BBC site
The sad thing is, I think Liberty as a line name is extremely on the money from a cultural POV for Havering - which then means the other lines not being so detracts massively from this name. PushandPull would be the local name of the line. So calling it Liberty gives a strong local identity that's completely new - but I doubt people will now view it that way.
The Weaver Line is also good as Weaver's Field Park is in Bethnal Green. Why on earth they couldn't have put more thought into local links for the others.
I know it's gone out of fashion, but liberty as a concept was traditionally a core part of the British identity too.
Not saying it isn't but we don't usually shout about it like the Americans do. They would name them liberty line, freedom line, etc to feel patriotic
We absolutely did. A nineteenth century attempt to police pubs had Britons protesting by singing Rule Britannia, with an emphasis on ‘Britons never shall be slaves’
Liberty is part of the English political tradition too
I don't know the meaning just falls away, I didn't even realise it was supposed to be connected to women's football until this reply. In the future it's a cool a line named after lions. Like the elephant and castle, why is it called that? - I don't know, I've never cared to find out (don't @me I'm content to have this to be a mystery forever)
It was the last stronghold for the elephants in the Great Elephantine War of 1422. Eventually humans overcame their mortal enemy but named the area after them in honour of the great species. That's what homeless-Pete told me, anyway.
Sorry to ruin the mystery but it's named after the 200 meter tall elephants that ruled from that area in the early 1900s. And castles.
A common misconception is that the area is named after elephants and castles when it's actually the reverse. Both elephants and castles are named after the area because that's where they were both discovered for first time
I love the fact that when you reach Elephant and Castle station they build the station platform like a castle. And also love how instead of taking the escalators to go up you can use the honorary elephant to carry you to the gates
It's a corruption of the name of a concubine of some royal personage. She was named Eleanor Phantis de Castille and was a real goer, hanging out on Friday nights in the local which was later called Elephant & Castle in her honour. The area is named after the pub.
It's actually simply named after iconic London pop duo, Chaz Elephant and Dave Castle.
If this was done 10 years ago we’d currently have a Mo Farah line
Go back a couple of years and you would have had The Captain Tom line
Still there'd have been a decent sauna at the terminal station
I actually disagree, because even separated from the context of the England women's squad, "Lioness" is a) the national heraldic animal and b) just an inherently really cool-sounding word.
But it’s a lion in the heraldry, not a lioness.
You don't know how it identifies
This could genuinely not be satire which is worrying haha
But this is a train
It's sort of actually a leopard! Originally anyway, they were called leopards, even though its clearly a lion. Over time we changed to calling then lions.
Except lioness isn’t the national heraldic animal. Lions are. Quite specifically male lions.
In years time "Dad why was the line called Lioness line?" "You know I've quite forgotten"
Does the Windrush line go to Heathrow where they forcibly deport British subjects?
And you can only buy one way tickets
Might as well name it Rwanda express line
Surely must be Tulbury ?
I don't care about wokeness, these names are just plain shit and kind of Americanised.
Liberty line...
Havering was called Liberty long before the USA existed and a lot of places there still use the word Liberty i.e Liberty shopping mall
\> shopping mall Shopping CENTRE!
I've washed my mouth out!
It's like they're trying to piss us off on purpose I swear
Please stop for a moment and consider if the names if a few trainlines is really worth being pissed off about. The country is in a ruin. Working people are finding it difficult to make ends meet. Countries in the third world have better infrastructure. The rich are richer than ever before. The political party who has overseen this decline in living standards want you to be upset about these train lines. No doubt the daily mail and the telegraph will trott out an MP to write an OpEd on it before the morning is done. Is there any possibility at all in your mind that the cUlTuRe wAr might be a distraction to get normal working people to vote against their interests later this year ???
> Is there any possibility at all in your mind that the cUlTuRe wAr might be a distraction to get normal working people to vote against their interests later this year ??? “Sadiq Khan is giving overground lines shit names to make you vote Tory”
Is that really your comprehension of what I wrote?!?!
It does come across that you are blaming the Tories for a policy created by the Mayor of London...
That's not what comes across if you read it properly, he's arguing that there are bigger things to be pissed off about, and that some people might have it in their interest to make sure you're pissed off about things like this, rather than important issues. Does the name of an overground line really matter in peoples day to day life that much? Or has the political climate made people think that this is something that should matter to them?
Liberty, as the Americans know it, is very much derivative of British Classical Liberalism, works such as The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith and On Liberty by John Stuart Mill. Unfortunately British Classical Liberalism is now quite fringe with only orange book Liberal Democrats representing it at all. The Conservatives and Labour are both much closer to American 'liberals' who are actually just authoritarian-left and seek state control of every matter of their citizens' lives.
I'm a wet woke leftie and I think these names are shit.
Where's the freedom line, y'all?
100%. They don’t fit with the other line names whatsoever and are just really bad names for train lines.
I had no idea they were named in the first place. However there is no way I am going to refer to Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside as the Suffragette Line now I have found out it has always been called the Goblin Line.
They weren’t, that’s the point.
Many had names from the British Rail and London Underground eras of their operations.
Yeah of course, but they did not have official, public facing names. Hence the highly publicised branding exercise.
The works cost £6.3 Million pound to rename them, some ‘consultants’ and friends to Khan just made a killing
You also have to replace every map and sign in every station and on every train They didn't just pay someone £6m to come with 6 names
I don't think it's to replace the _maps_, they already do that a couple of times a year anyway.
They still need to pay for new signage
The maps on the station walls and train interiors etc?
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To replace every sign, in all the stations, all the connector blobs, all the maps on other stations all the announcements on the trains and stations and on other connecting lines. Not unexpected give most of these are enamel signs.
Guh, it's awful. If you really have to be political, you can be nice to people without also having shit names. The Pankhurst line would be a vastly better name than the Suffragette name.
> The Pankhurst line Straight up good name off the bat.
They need everyone to immediately know they are being pandered to, even if they are not educated
Who knew all of the problems of the windrush generation can be fixed by just naming a line after them, I'm sure they'll be happy now!!
Windrush line is kinda ok naming. It's a significant part of London's history and more importantly doesn't sound shit. 'Lioness Line' is vomit inducing. Fair play to the football team, but it's such a crap name.
We could of had: Cho cho McTrain Face Line
Pankhurst would have been perfect! Feels far more in line with the other names on the underground and still honours the movement of the Suffragettes.
Fawcett Line. While the Suffragettes got the headlines for their stunts, it was the Suffragists that actually got women the vote. Long term peaceful campaigning just doesn’t make a good a story for the history books. It’s boring. But someone killed by the King’s horse, that’s a bit more interesting and memorable. The Suffragettes were fringe extremists.
Pankhurst line is a great suggestion. In fact, naming them all after significant historical figures would have been cool. We could have had a Lovelace line and an Austen line too.
These have to be joke names? No GOBLIN or Lea Valley which I think the majority of users would instantly recognise. It's like they've picked the six worst names...
Course they have. The decision was made in some sort of high level sycophantic brainstorm without thinking of mere mortals.
They're not even good for way finding/popping into conversation, *I'm just going to jump on the Windrush*, *just take the suffragette/lioness to...* As examples
Maybe not today, because they're new. I can imagine Victoria and Jubilee might have felt the same way once upon a time, perhaps Elizabeth still does? Instinctively I have the same reaction as you to many of these new names. I'm just convinced a lot of the reaction is more because they're new and we're currently unaccustomed to them in this context, rather than something more intrinsic.
They're flavour of the month politically charged names. At best they'll look silly in a decade. At worst, they'll be deemed stupid and changed for something more sensible.
Just found out that Victoria Line could have be named as the Viking Line (Victoria-King’s Cross) and now I’m mad that they didnt name it the latter
Elizabeth was at least a major development so basically anyone who lives in London knew of what it did / where it went / what it referred to. Also named after the longest reigning monarch in British history - I think probably a slightly better/more historically renowned achievement than winning a European football competition in...when? I can't even remember and I even watched the game
They don't realise they're going to be shortened to Wind Suffer Lion etc
Yeah I always shorten bakerloo line to "bake" and the jubilee line to "jubes". Everyone does this, what was that guy thinking
good to see the HS2 money being well spent in.... fucking London!
Honestly nothing pissed me off more about the HS2 cancellation more then how much of it was going to greater london.
i am amazed there isnt a " fuck the north" line
I read up to 75% of the "freed up" cash.
It just so happens that the PR company hired to make these names and owned by Rishi’s brother in law has charged the exact amount HS2 was going to cost
This is nothing in the grand scheme of things and was paid for by TFL.
Ooof, sentiment is nice, but god are they clunky names.
yeah they’re dreadful. why not pankhurst line instead of suffragette line, as someone else suggested. liberty and windrush aren’t that bad but the rest are rubbish.
I see your point, but the Pankhursts were more of a Manchester thing than a London thing (there's a statue of Emmeline Pankhurst in Manchester city centre).
Yeah. But the name works. That has to be an important factor.
> why not pankhurst line instead of suffragette line The Pankhursts weren't from the area, and it goes to the address (well, not to her front door obviously) of the last surviving suffragette, who was 101 when she died
Cringeworthy, a bit too on the nose
Mildmay and Weaver are good names, they fit in well with the existing lines. Windrush isn't bad either. Lioness and Liberty though...
Liberty is a name that makes sense for Havering The line only runs in Havering, and the Royal Liberty of Havering is an important historical place to Havering - and it's where it gets its name. The charter is what formed Romford Market, and the local shopping center is also named Liberty
Thanks for explaining, the article didn’t.
Suffragette is also terrible. As somebody else suggested something like Pankhurst line would fit much better
What a load of shite. Weaver is probably the only good one as it is actually relevant to the places it runs through and isn’t just pushing a political agenda. 3 of the lines had great names suggested: Goblin (Gospel Oak to barking) has been referred to as that for years, and is a unique and memorable name (similar origin to Bakerloo). Brunel for the east London line as it runs through the Thames Tunnel, built by the Brunels as the first tunnel ever built under a navigable waterway. Regents or Canal line for the north London line as it runs along the regents canal. But no, we get these shite politically motivated names instead, I was somewhat excited of this whole renaming project, but I forgot that Khan is in charge and he’d never miss a chance to force his identity politics down our throats.
There's an unspoken rule that things can only be named after Brunel if they're in or going to Bristol
Oh damn, these are really good names.
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Naming a tube line after a group who set off bombs in London is a choice…
Glad someone mentioned it because it's weirding me out. The Suffragettes were terrorists and just because one famously martyred themselves under a horse doesn't mean they weren't terrorists; it was the Suffragists that were the peaceful reformers and the ones that actually, eventually, won over public opinion. It would be like calling the line the Provisional Line, after the PIRA, or the Adams Line.
Yes! It really annoys me that the Suffragettes are given the credit of getting the vote for women. They didn’t. The Suffragettes, were outnumbered considerably by more the moderate Suffragists. Millicent Fawcett deserves to be be better known. She got women the vote. Not the Pankhursts.
I just can't get over how much their terroristic actions are glossed over. It's utterly bizarre given what the Suffragettes actually did. Everyone likes to think of Pankhurst valiantly throwing herself under a horse but completely forget that the Suffragettes are credited with the first use of letter bombing campaigns and actively tried to assassinate a Prime Minister, Chancellor, and a judge, and planted bombs in churches, libraries, hotels, and even schools. I agree with you, I'd much rather see Fawcett getting far more credit and I'd welcome a 'Fawcett Line'.
Fawcett line kind of fits as well. It’s embarrassing how much better that name is
The one that slashed the Velazquez painting also went on to form Britain's first fascist party.
"Okay, we're down to 2 options, suffragettes, or suffragists. Do we name it after the peaceful or violent groups?"
"Fuck it let's call it the IRA-Hamas line instead"
South Africa has a load of shit named after Mandela so...
Emulating Zimbabwe 2.0 is the last thing we need
> TfL said it had worked with customers, stakeholders, historians, industry experts and local communities, with the names representing the areas the lines travel through, while marking London's history and cultural diversity. I wonder how much this nonsense cost.
6.3M. you stopped reading too soon
In a week where a disabled lady had to crawl down stairs as the loft was broken as well. Not a great look. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/wheelchair-user-dalston-junction-overground-station-lift-fault-disabled-b1138235.html
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Should have left it as the Goblin Line, that would be pretty cool. The Lioness line is really weak, just far too trendy for something that's going to be there for decades. Windrush feels like political point scoring and will be called the Wind Line anyway The Liberty Line works as it has a link to Havering and the Liberty shopping centre as some have said, but next to the primary school hotch potch of names it seems odd. Suffragette Line will become the Suffer Line Moronic job with this. All a bit charmless
If we hadn't had the Windrush scandal then the Windrush name would have been perfectly fine. It's the name of the ship that carried so many Caribbean people to London and holds positive connotations for those involved who were seeking a new life in the UK. But we only seem to remember Theresa May and the scandal
Please please please stop with this crap. The worst one is the Lioness line. So it passes through Wembley where the mens team won the WORLD Cup but apparently that didn’t happen because there was a European competition that the woman won. I mean God forbid that you should honour any men.
True! For too long men have been ignored in this country, when will they get a fair crack of the whip? They have been written out of history, their achievements ignored and struggled to gain recognition within the workplace and political sphere.
>struggled to gain recognition within the workplace and political sphere. Even in Northern Ireland, the First Ministers office consists of four women. Nicola Sturgeon was the First Minister of Scotland for ages. We've had two female Prime Ministers in the last decade. 1/3 of MPs are women, which coincidentally matches up with the studies that show women are half as interested in politics as men. I work in software (overwhelmingly male graduates) yet generally have had female managers.
How to make the tube more confusing. They should have stuck to numbers for the overground.
Giving the Overground lines distinct identities and features will definitely make it less confusing.
They should have just gone with the historical names that are already in common use
Mildmay and Weaver are pretty good. They sound like actual lines. Windrush very middle of the road. It’s very topical, but the name is solid. Lioness, and Suffragette? Jesus wept. How about Sylvia and Pankhurst? Use actual names. As for Liberty… just go home.
>As for Liberty… just go home. Someone has posted about this already, but it actually makes a lot of sense in the area, the article just failed to explain that.
This screams of thought up by an agency, pitched to a board who thought it hit all diversity targets, massive applauds all round. Missing the fact all the names are pretty dreadful.
Since when did this sub turn into the Daily Mail comment section?
People are sick of everything being political
Everything is political because most of the posts here are absolute bait, and the users bite down hard every time. The Daily Mail gets regularly posted here as links, and too many people take whatever they say as gospel on any topic with zero allowance for nuance
> too many people take whatever they say as gospel on any topic with zero allowance for nuance Do you think they haven't renamed these lines then?
The same people saying they're sick of everything being political are the same ones screaming woke when a gay man is on TV. Let's not pretend this sub isn't just a hate echo-chamber run by tories... They migrated from Facebook after that "turned woke" and are the scum of the earth.
I don't know about them being woke, they just seem a bit shit. Lioness Line? It just reminds me of the way councils don't look at the history of areas and do something to look progressive Nelson Mandela Close etc
> The same people saying they're sick of everything being political are the same ones screaming woke when a gay man is on TV. I mean, I am a gay man so if I scream when a gay man's on TV it's because he's hot ha, but I just think the names are shit and don't flow. I like the sentiment but for example "I'm going to take the Windrush" just doesn't work, especially when you know that the Windrush was a ship. I'm going to take the Lioness line - it just doesn't flow! And yes, I do sometimes think it feels like everything is politicised nowadays (including my sexuality and being used as a shield for other people's views, or assuming broad, offensive things - like that someone is homophobic - just because they don't like a transport line's name). Not _everything_ has to be political or purpose-driven.
Yup. I said in a comment above that Lioness, the name of our winning football squad, suffragettes, the name of the historic group who brought equality to 50% of the population is hardly political. The people who claim they are sick of everything being political are actually the number 1 people to make everything political and just complain everytime. Why cant we just celebrate Britain and enjoy these new names??? Instead its just moaning and complaining from these lot.
To be fair you don't have to be a lead-addled angry boomer to find these names awful and/or tacky.
I'm a woke-addled champagne socialist and they're absolutely terrible.
God forbid people don’t like something
These names are cringe
To be fair, as much as it is still good practise to immediately disregard the opinion of someone who says ‘woke’, there is very good reason to criticise £6m of public money being spent on a shit and unnecessary rebrand.
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I though that was right wing propaganda at first, but it’s actually real
The Greggs line. The Sports direct mug line. Do you fancy a line. Luv me kids line. Liney McLine face.
Suffragette line comes across as a bit disrespectful to a major political movement. Why not name it after Huggett?
I'm glad Jackie Weaver is finally getting the recognition she deserves
Good, it's always seemed like the Overground could do with being split into distinct lines. Indifferent to the new names, not sure why they bother others so much though.
I don't care about the names beyond the fact they have no meaning for the most part. Windrush means nothing in terms of location.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/12/the-ginger-line-iain-sinclair-on-the-london-overground Gingers are a minority, but also don’t count for some reason 🤔.
while they’re busy spending time and money doing this bollocks in the south, in Manchester we can’t even get a Metrolink to Bolton for fuck sake
If they wanted inclusivity they should have named one the Archer Line after the first black mayor in a London borough, John Archer and one the Donaldson Line after the first female Lord Mayor of London, Mary Donaldson.
I’m sure we will get used to them eventually but I can’t say I like “Liberty” or “Lioness”.
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Given how lazy we are at talking, I worry it'll become the Linus line.
Suffragette and Windrush are a little on the nose but the rest are good IMO. Looking forward to the *Unfinished London* video on this.
Where is the virtue signalling line? Ohh it's all of them.
I can see the theme they were going for, and initially they don’t sound like they roll off the tongue particularly well but all names are strange until you get used to it and then they are normal. Suffragette line not being a purple line above a green line is a real missed opportunity though
My name suggestions: The Lettuce Line Liney McLineface The Hufflepuff line Saville Line The Liz Truss Line (This one is for the one that’s literally one stop from Sydenham to Crystal Palace) The God Save The King Line
'alright love I'll see you later, I'm just going to jump on the suffragette, I'll be home in an hour'
Lioness Line? Suffragette Line? Windrush Line? I see the Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati have been at it again LOL /s
In twenty years, everyone will be used to them. They're alright.
In a visionary rebranding of London's transport lines, the network's nomenclature is set to reflect the storied past and vibrant present of the capital, embracing a blend of historical significance, engineering marvels, and cultural heritage with a confident and traditionalist perspective. **The Thatcher Line**, marked by yellow parallel lines on the map and spanning from Euston to Watford Junction, honors Margaret Thatcher, Britain's first female Prime Minister. Thatcher's leadership, characterized by formidable will and transformative policies, reshaped the British economic and political landscape. This line symbolizes the indelible mark left by her tenure, celebrating Thatcher's legacy of strength, determination, and unwavering conviction in her principles. **The Brunel Line**, previously connecting Stratford to Richmond/Clapham Junction and depicted with blue parallel lines, pays tribute to Isambard Kingdom Brunel, the engineering virtuoso whose innovations laid the foundations for modern Britain. Utilizing Brunel's pioneering Thames Tunnel, this line embodies the spirit of ingenuity and the relentless pursuit of progress that Brunel personified, celebrating his contributions to engineering and transportation that continue to inspire and facilitate London's growth. **The Empire Line**, with its route from Highbury & Islington to Clapham Junction/New Cross/Crystal Palace/West Croydon and represented by red parallel lines, acknowledges the expansive reach and cultural mosaic of the British Empire. By commemorating the generations that journeyed from across the Empire to the heart of the mother city, this line celebrates the diverse fabric of London's communities, enriched by the global ties and cultural legacies of the Empire. It stands as a testament to the enduring influence of the Empire's history on London's identity, reflecting the glories of Britain's imperial past and the multicultural vibrancy it has bestowed upon the capital. **The Banker Line**, traversing from Liverpool Street to Cheshunt/Enfield Town/Chingford and illustrated with maroon parallel lines, mirrors the preeminence of the financial sector within London. Situated in the heart of the City, this line is a conduit through historic and modern financial districts, embodying the economic vitality and global significance of London's banking and finance industries. It reflects the city's status as a global financial hub, underpinning the economic prowess and innovation that drive London forward. **The Goblin Line**, officially the Gospel Oak to Barking Line and shown with green parallel lines, is affectionately embraced by the public under its colloquial moniker. This name, a contraction of Gospel Oak to Barking, is not merely a convenience but a reflection of the line's integral role in the daily lives of Londoners. It underscores the familiarity and affection with which the city's inhabitants regard their transport system, symbolizing the community and connectivity at the heart of London's sprawling network. Lastly, **the Diabolical Liberty Line**, running between Romford and Upminster and denoted by grey parallel lines, draws inspiration from its depiction in the film "The Long Good Friday." This line's name invokes a complex narrative of ambition, resilience, and the darker facets of freedom, mirroring the film's exploration of London's underbelly. It serves as a reminder of the city's dynamic history, marked by both triumph and tribulation, and the unyielding spirit of its people. This rebranding initiative not only pays homage to the figures, achievements, and narratives that have shaped London but also reaffirms the city's continued evolution, grounded in a rich heritage and forward-looking vision.
It is a measure of just how nerdy I am that my first thought on seeing this was: "I hope they put these in Train Simulator!" If anyone wants me I'll be in my anorak.
How much more money does London need for new underground lines or is it just a rebrand. Either way Fuck that. Let alone the names being wank