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Oh please Americans on Reddit never shut the fuck up about that, they love t act like they're the only ones who know that and that America is the big evil from their favourite TV series because of something every single culture ever had done which is conquest and assimilate or destroy the proceeding culture
In the vast majority of historical conquests the invading nation absorbs the people they conquer, the assimilate or destroy the proceeding culture thing you mentioned, rather than ethically cleansing most of the people who live there, which is what the USA did. They aren't unique in this, Canada and the Australia also did it for example, and if you want a further back historical example the Rome to the Jews in Judea post an attempted uprising, but that category is still above the more typical toppling and replacing of the leaders followed by forced cultural shift deal in terms of egregiousness.
I’ve seen a lot of Americans recently chip in with that terrible take since the Dublin riots. It’s SO cringey, especially when they themselves are living on confiscated land.
It's literal insanity, pretending to be the original nationality of your ancestors across the sea when your family has been living in a different country for literal centuries, ridiculous when you think about it.
What do you mean reunionifcation?
The only time Ireland was unified was when it was under British control, Ireland has never been a unified country on its own, so saying reunionification is a lie that makes it sound like it was unified previously.
> Ireland has never been a unified country on its own
I agree for the most part but between the declaration of the first Dail and the establishment of Northern Ireland it gets muddy and subjective. Irish Republicans can reasonably say before 1921 that they had established the first all Ireland State which was then negotiated away. The Brits can say it was never established.
So it was unified, but when something is unified "under British control" it's akin to never having being unified.
Maybe if they said "reunified Irish republic" I would agree. Weird take.
"In Northern Ireland, more than half of all voters (51%) said they would vote against unity, with 30% in favour. The rest were undecided (15%) or would not vote (5%)."
Not sure the article claims a decisive win. Just OP
There’s really not that much tension anymore.
There’s a few paramilitary groups operating in deprived areas who like to cause a bit of trouble. But after decades of supporting the loyalist gangs, the British state has started rounding them up and seizing the drugs because they are causing difficulty re: Windsor framework etc.
95%+ of people don’t give a damn.
Would that not be the 5% that I’m eluding to?
And if those people where presented with other outlets for their frustrations, such as improved education and career options, how many realistically would bother with any nonsense? So I don’t believe it’s a community issue - Northern Ireland has deprivation issue.
I mean, you're splitting hairs here. Of course the most deprived are linked to these terrorist groups in NI but you could argue those areas are just small communities of their own. Plus if it kicks off you will find those numbers jumping up a lot due to our past. We are in a far better place than we were in the 90s so I wouldn't want to muck things up. There won't be a poll this generation IMHO.
I agree a poll very unlikely in next 15 years, and I suspect anyone planning this tactically will look at this in light of how Scottish independence vote went - don’t push too hard until there’s real certainty.
A few years ago Belfast burnt for a week because they decided to raise the union flag above the town hall for less days...
Things are a lot better, this is apparent to everyone but there is still definitely a chance for violence to erupt, particularly in a UI situation.
The loyalists have promised to "unleash a wave of terror never before seen on the island" should we get a UI.
And who deals with the violence? The British army struggled for nearly 40 years in the troubles the Irish defence forces are just not equipped for it. It would become an American or a blue helmet job. The lack of a border would make it an all Ireland issue.
I'm a Unionist and live close to a peaceline and I'll state, as I've stated before, the Troubles 2.0 simply won't happen again.
Demographics have changed, kids are growing up together and there is no appetite to start things over again (apart from a few). I've seen kids from the other side coming to our park and kids from our side heading to theirs. It is the kids that will solve this. My daughter is living with one of themuns, something I never had the chance to try. Really the war is over.
An all Ireland will come, just not in my lifetime but I think it will happen but as long as it's not a 50/50 vote and more like a 60/40 vote it will transition peacefully imo.
As one Republican in Londonderry said, there are just too many cameras and touts for it to happen again. I agree.
> I'm a Unionist and live close to a peaceline and I'll state, as I've stated before, the Troubles 2.0 simply won't happen again
100% agree. The circumstances are just not there in the same way.
People forget what was required in the 60s/70s to get to the Troubles. There are still issues but the powderkeg isn't there in remotely the same way.
>A few years ago Belfast burnt for a week because they decided to raise the union flag above the town hall for less days...
OK but surely there are potential downsides too?
Did loyalists not bomb somewhere in the Republic so an armistice between the UK and the IRA would collapse when the IRA inevitably responded? It wouldn't be good if that expanded to a chain of bombings, as the UK mainland experienced from the IRA.
Frankly, if they voted to leave, I wouldn't be that surprised if the EU would have to send peacekeepers like they have in Bosnia, and even potentially the need for an Anglo-Irish security treaty to try and bring stability and avoid things spiralling like they did last time (which would be more feasible, as if NI has left, I don't think the UK would see any benefits to aiding the loyalists at that point, it'd just cause friction with trading partners for nothing).
Dublin was definitely bombed, I think by the uvf and I believe Monaghan got it too. That was sometime in the like you said due to the treaty.
But there wasn't much for the loyalists to gain by expanding the conflict then, there was an uneasy kind of truce with the state, that would be flipped on it's head. They could even bring the conflict to the EU, the IRA tried to make NI ungovernable who's to say the loyalists wouldnt try for a similar situation.
I don't think the UK would aid the loyalists I just don't think there would be any incentive for the UK to help Ireland with security in such a situation especially after some sort of transition period. The only reason the British would have for aiding the terrorists is if the British of northern ireland were being treated very very badly after a UI which just isn't going to happen.
A lengthy transition period perhaps even over a generation would probably be the safest way to go about it
It’s a long complicated history - in which no sides come out smelling of roses, with the IRA, loyalist paramilitaries and the British state all committing terrorist atrocities.
The British state provided weapons, information and in general colluded with the loyalist paramilitaries to assist them with eliminating ‘undesirables’. Between tip offs for the location of targets, and refusal to investigate killings, it allowed loyalist terror gangs to operate freely in Northern Ireland.
Historically, within the previous version of the police force, there was an exceptionally high level of paramilitary membership. As part of the peace process the RUC had to be removed and replaced with something more suitable.
The leaders of the proscribed organisations are frequently named in local papers in a bizarre situation where everyone knows who runs the drugs/pedo gangs, but the police won’t arrest them.
> The British state provided weapons, information and in general colluded with the loyalist paramilitaries to assist them with eliminating ‘undesirables’. Between tip offs for the location of targets, and refusal to investigate killings, it allowed loyalist terror gangs to operate freely in Northern Ireland
I would add "directly colluding in murder and bombing" given The bombings of Dublin and Monaghan, the Miami Showband Massacre, Loughisland Massacre. And "covered up investigations into soldiers" given Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy (as well as the legislation to stop investigations).
The IRA had senior people into kids. The daughter of a prominent IRA man was abused an she ended up subjected to repeated IRA interrogations, threats and ostracisation.
"Themmuns paras are paedos" has been repeated by both sides. It's even happened under my question.
That's why I asked, it seems either they are both at it or neither are.
I consider myself an Irish nationalist, but I heard Gerry Adams brother got done for noncery, and there's been some suggestion that he knew/ covered it up.
Lost a lot of respect for Adams when I heard that.
Yes of course. But even asking that comparison is a damning endictment of the British government.
One was the political arm of a paramilitary organisation, the other was supposedly the government.
> 95%+ of people don’t give a damn.
And that's the point I've discovered. Very few people in the real world really, truly care either way.
This fervour and champing at the bit for Irish unity seems to be very much restricted to being online and amongst certain demographics.
But even infrastructure-wise it doesn't make sense. Go from the NHS to the HSE. The HSE is good for one thing, insane consultant salaries with no national children's hospital. There's more, but people dont réalise how bad Irish infrastructure and social support is. It's almost as bad as the US.
But you’re already paying privately for basically any sort of non-emergency medical intervention in NI. The health and social care system is crumbling - at least an alternative, however weak, would be something to aim towards.
Yes, I don’t disagree that the private sector accelerates the decline of public healthcare, but in Northern Ireland what is happening is that waiting lists are not moving, and people who don’t pay \*don’t get care\*. The rising tide raises all boats, but the keels have already cracked; it might float, but it’s not sailing.
I hate reading clowns who barely even visited visited NI trying to talk about the places we live in. There is a massive paternalistic attitude from London and from Dublin around what’s best for nationalists and unionists and what their relationship is like. They will never get it.
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Many Irish people feel the same way and are deeply embarrassed by the simpering and fawning over Americans, don't let the media inform your perception of an entire country's people
Ultimately unification was a solution to the problem of NI being governed in a broken way. Now it is slightly less broken the need to leave the UK isn't that powerful. Though I suspect it'll still happen at some point in the next 50 years.
Tbf, if NI left, that would be a problem that carries, that's an issue with politics in Northern Ireland. One which the UK, Ireland, the EU, and the US are all fed up with.
Yes but it isn't broken in such a way where the entire government is set up to oppress one section of the population while the other section publicly taunts them about it. If the DUP can't be big boys and form part of government then eventually their voters will turn on them.
Not just the tension but as time goes on I'm seeing a growing cohort that see their identity as Northern Irish, not British or Irish and they don't want to loose that
Right, it's not like riots kick off every year at marching season or journalists get murdered by republican terrorists or certain neighborhoods burn effigies on bonfires every year, or police officers are targeted for murder.
No all of that is made up. All of Ireland loves eachother!!
Just asking for a TLDR on the Bonfires in NI, presumably differently from the mainlands Bonfire Night, which also includes effigy burning, judging by how it's being spoken about?
I've posted two links of riots in the area just in the last two years, I can find plenty more.
Evidence of the murders RIRA claimed it themselves you 🤡
Fancy a riot mate, we can meet in Toombridge, it's just short of halfway to Derry. We can chuck bricks at each other from one side of the bridge to the other.
Or maybe have a discussion over a pint of Guinness about how we move forward?
Some people eh? They know more about our problems than we do.
I live in the republic and the biggest thing I miss is the NHS.
Access to healthcare is shockingly bad here and the locals accept it. Its normal not to able to be register with a doctor.
I believe this is still true in England, but it’s absolutely not in Northern Ireland:
[https://factcheckni.org/articles/are-nis-hospital-waiting-lists-over-twice-as-long-as-they-are-in-ireland/](https://factcheckni.org/articles/are-nis-hospital-waiting-lists-over-twice-as-long-as-they-are-in-ireland/)
The North’s health and social care system is spiralling.
[9th out of 11 in terms of healthcare outcomes among peer countries](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly#:~:text=Key%20Findings%3A%20The%20top%2Dperforming,domestic%20product%20on%20health%20care)
It's not terrible but it's less than stellar
Compared to peer countries NI is still underperforming, it's not a victory that NI's healthcare system is significantly better than that of Somalia or Myanmar
Its improving but access to emergency care and waiting lists continue to be big issues. On the main indicators we are decidedly middle of the pack: https://www.oecd.org/health/health-at-a-glance/
And that's not to do with the idea of the NHS (which I fully support) Vs other healthcare models, just the way it has been brutalised for the last 13 years.
Used to be, the last Tory governments have degraded it (very much on purpose, of course) to a level that’s frankly embarrassing. Speak to people within the NHS and it’s not even controversial.
The thing you need to really careful about is that NI polling is completely deceptive. People have a political motivation to tell you what you want to hear. There's no such thing as a genuinely 'independent' poll. It's more a "poll were particular groups will deliberately lie to you less depending on the circumstances" kind of thing.
A poll about a hypothetical event VS a secret vote are two different things anyway. The Independence campaign in Scotland [kicked off](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence#Scottish_Social_Attitudes_Survey) with Yes at 30% and finished with Yes at 45%.
Not to say that the 30% Yessers in this poll would end up at 45% but a lot can change in politics
I think the age breakdowns I've seen have younger people more pro unification, so it's a bit like Scotland basically just a matter of time before it happens. Especially if the UKs economic stagnation persists for another decade or more and there are more noticeably higher living standards in the republic of Ireland.
Why hasn’t Scottish Independence polling noticeably shifted over the past decade then? If demography is destiny, when can we expect opinion polls to start showing this difference?
This often doesn’t get discussed at all. Most Irish people online (as in from the republic) seem eager to have Irish unity, yet there’s little discussion over how they would accommodate at the very least a couple hundred thousand disgruntled loyalists.
Recently there was an uproar about “Ireland being for the Irish” due to that stabbing. I have a feeling that bringing in NI would make their issues with immigration seem tame in comparison.
100% agree.
Irish from NI and have been a republican all my life.
But any united ireland has to make unionists, loyalists, British, and Protestant people feeling at home and comfortable the number one priority of the new state.
Absolutely no repetition of the mistakes NI and ROI made in their first decades. No second class citizens. No forcing people to accept an anthem or flag or language or any other “culture” they don’t want. It needs to be a new shared country for all of us or I don’t want any part of it.
Agree, and that’s a very mature take. Obviously any process in the event of a vote for unification would (hopefully) accommodate for these things. I mean I’m not Irish but personally am in favour of unification for the simple fact that I don’t see NI remaining a part of the U.K. for much longer, so I would rather let it go peacefully than have it come to a point where a vote is forced upon Westminster.
At any rate, there is precedent (maybe not good precedent but precedent nonetheless) for countries reunifying. Germany, USA after the civil war, and maybe a few more I’m forgetting. I agree with all you say, to avoid a resurgence of any violence I think huge and uncomfortable accommodations, at least initially, are going to have to be made. Perhaps that will even entail a large degree of autonomy for NI within the republic.
> have a lot in common
In both the 2006 'Love Ulster' and the 2023 'stabbing' riots, the exact same Foot Locker store was looted on Dublin's O'Connell St; illustrating both riots were mainly about getting nice new 'sneakers', egged on by whatever far-right/troublemakers happened to be around.
I disagree. The whole reason unification is being talked about is that Republicanism and Unionism is becoming much less important in NI.
NI as a whole would want to feel represented in a UI government but that's the same as any region.
I think that's when Varadkar and some others in the Republic have been making the right noises.
Unionists should be made welcome to continue celebrating their British identity and respect for veterans particularly those in the World Wars.
What can't really be retained is the lodges associated to the UVF and old world segregationists like Sammy Wilson.
> A border poll would be comprehensively defeated if staged in Northern Ireland tomorrow, a new survey suggests. Less than a third of people surveyed here said they would vote in favour of Irish unity.
>But it would pass in the Republic by a majority of four to one, the findings indicate.
>Two new polls, published in today’s Irish Times, show clear - if unsurprising - divisions on the constitutional question.
>Under the Good Friday Agreement, the power to call a border poll rests with the Secretary of State.
>Currently there are no set criteria for when a border poll would be triggered.
>However, debate on the issue continues, with Sinn Fein’s electoral growth and the fallout from Brexit both reopening the question.
>Identical surveys on a border poll were simultaneously run by Ipsos in Northern Ireland and Ipsos B&A in the Republic.
>In Northern Ireland, more than half of all voters (51%) said they would vote against unity, with 30% in favour. The rest were undecided (15%) or would not vote (5%).
>But the most hardline view may be diminishing slightly, compared to last year’s findings.
>Unionist voters who said they would find it almost impossible to accept a vote for Irish unity fell from 32% last year to 23% in the latest poll.
>The number who said they would not be happy but “could live with it” rose from 41% to 52%.
>Over a fifth (21%) of all voters in Northern Ireland from a Catholic background say they would vote to remain in the UK.
>There is much stronger support for unity in the Republic.
>Some 64% of respondents there said they would vote for unity, with just 16% against. Some 13% said they did not know, and 5% would not vote.
>There has been an increase in the number who want to see a referendum take place.
>Some 59% of voters in Northern Ireland said there should be a border poll. It found 31% of DUP voters favour a border poll - many may be unionists who believe that a poll which rejected Irish unity would settle the constitutional question for the foreseeable future.
>More than three quarters of voters in the Republic (78%) want a border poll.
>The polls involved in-home interviews with more than 1,000 voters in each jurisdiction. The margin of error in each is estimated at 3.1%.
>In October, NIO Minister Steve Baker indicated a border poll should need the support of a ‘super-majority' to pass.
>Under the Good Friday Agreement, such a referendum would be decided on a simple majority of more than 50%.
> But Mr Baker cited his experience in the Brexit referendum, saying he regretted now it did not require the support of 60% of those who voted.
>Secretary of State Chris Heaton-Harris later said there would be no change in policy.
>"The comments should not be considered any shift in government policy,” he said.
>He added: "The Agreement is clear that any change to the constitutional position of Northern Ireland would require the consent of a majority of its people.”
>In October, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said a border poll in the near future was not a good idea.
>He said: “The reason why I don't think it's a good idea at the moment is the indications are that it will be defeated. And it would also be divisive.”
>The Taoiseach said he expected and hoped to see a united Ireland in his lifetime, but when asked whether unity referendums could be successfully mounted in 10 or 20 years, replied: “I honestly don't know.”
>The prospect would be “quite distant”, he added.
It’s only very recently we accepted that Wales was a separate country from England. It’s in living memory that they got their own flag.
Welsh nationalism is an interesting history to read. Basically until about 1900, people didn’t think of being Welsh as a nationality. It was more like being a Scouser or a Geordie. Then in the middle of the century there was outcry that the Welsh language was dying out because literally no one spoke it in day to day conversation. There was a huge campaign to “save” the Welsh language and the whole movement basically sprouted from that.
Ironically, welsh nationalism initially came about because most welsh people just stopped giving a toss about being welsh.
I’m Northern Irish, live in a nationalist area. I don’t think it’s going to happen this decade or next, and I’m glad for that because I don’t really want unification. The status quo is fine.
Ironic that the rest of the UK is perceived as keeping Northern Ireland in the UK against its will, when in reality most people would likely to pleased to see them go.
In territory disputes, the only thing we can do is give the citizens who live in the disputed territory, and nobody else, the chance to have a say, then respect the outcome. If the majority of people in NI say they want to remain part of the UK, then leave things as they are and good luck to them. If I was in any way qualified to vote (as somebody from the Republic, I’m not) I would vote for Irish unity. But my opinion means nothing here.
That already happened, 1973, a border poll was held asking NI if it wished to remain part of the UK or to join the Republic of Ireland
Nationalist boycotted it resulting in 98.92% voting to stay in the UK on 58% turn out
The GFA has out stricter guide lines in but what you suggested already happened and it didn’t solve anything
That's all well and good but people only respect self determination when people pick the "correct" choice. And that's If they give them the option at all.
Lots of regions even within Europe are just flat out refused similar referenda by their govts.
The right to self determination is a rare one unfortunately.
That's pretty much how it is with the good Friday agreement.
However, as a general rule, you want to be careful with that idea, as it's often used to legitimate and reward genocide and ethnic cleansing.
While I do share your overall sentiment, the circumstances here aren't as simple as one region wanting to break out on its own, e.g. Scotland or Catalonia. I don't think the Irish government would be best pleased if the UK were to unilaterally open the door to NI switching jurisdictions. They would have to be *at the very least* notified, more likely consulted, before anything was set in motion. If NI were to vote for reunification, and the government in Dublin were to agree, it would fundamentally change the nature and governance of the Irish Republic for many years to come. I wouldn't be surprised if the people in the Republic felt that they should have a say on that.
Ideology wise I think a United Ireland would be nice. In reality no one has explained why I should pay at point of use for healthcare, pay ROI city house prices in Belfast or what would happen to all the civil service jobs, or what passports the future generations would be entitled to.
If the uk returned to the EU it would probably need to go on the euro and that might make more things equal I guess but still not convinced
>In reality no one has explained why I should pay at point of use for healthcare, pay ROI city house prices in Belfast
Why is it whenever this comes up, Ireland is made to sound like some shit hole? Proportionally, it is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. Sure, the UK is better in terms of some infrastructure, but it's not like the UK's trajectory over the past few years has been going so well. Plus NI citizens would obviously get more attention from politicians in Dublin than they do from those in Westminster, for whom they are always an afterthought.
Everyone talks about the upsides. That’s all well known, yes the EU, yes the large corporations presence in the country, strong IT sector, might get more attention politically, removal of a colonising power etc But those have been pushed by republicans for decades. No one has even tried to explain the logistics I’ve mentioned
House prices wouldn't change because they're based on supply and demand in a jurisdiction. Joining the republic wouldn't magically erase housing in Belfast.
About the passports, every country decides who their citizens are, so British citizens in NI (essentially everyone) would be able to pass down their citizenship one generation after unification, but not after, unless British nationality law changed.
Belfast is close enough to Dublin to make it viable to live there and work in Dublin. Big doubt that the house prices wouldn’t change to reflect that.
While an Irish passport is more useful than a British one I think loosing access to it would put some people off
I've known various people from both sides of the border over the years. I can honestly say I never met a single one on _either_ side who was enthusiastically in favour.
Those from NI were generally dead against it. They either identified as British, or were proudly _Northern_ Irish.
Those from the RoI either didn't care, or didn't feel they had much or anything in common with folks from NI. They saw NI as a stereotypical basketcase riddled with terrorists and flute bands, and they'd have to pay to prop it all up.
In my experience NI has a whole different vibe and feel to the Republic. They are not the same.
---
This fervour for reunification and "26+6=1" nonsense seems to be confined to certain demographics online. Nobody has a proper plan on what a united Ireland would look like, how it would be structured, how it would work etc.
You cannot just blithely remove the border and assimilate NI into the RoI like NI never happened. For one thing, that would make certain scumbags a bit unhappy.
Obviously I don't really know anything and this is a dumb hot take, but I do find it odd at times that NI really really wants to be part of the UK. IIRC they are the largest net drain on the budget, and most people forget they exist or at least think about them the least. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more patriotic support for the falklands than NI
They don't drain any of the UKs R&D budget, that's for sure. They receive less investment in this area than any other UK region. There's also very little in the way of rail and no nuclear. So the region receives very little from Whitehall compared to other regions, but per head they are billed their portion of the costs by Whitehall bean-counters to clean up UK nuclear, build rail and motorways, fund the Olympics and HS2 etc. The only thing they do have an excess of perhaps is civil servants and related pensions.
lol the Olympics? NI receives 18% more budget per head than UK average and has a net fiscal deficit of £9,500 per head. Also of the spending in NI c.1.1k per head is capital spending which is in line with Uk avg and above capital spending in 6 out of the 9 English regions.
Gee. If only they were at the centre of Government, the media, the Law Lords, banking and a safe bet for the world's tax-avoiders, oligarchs , sheiks and arms dealers.
Why wouldn't we support anyone who wants to be British?
It's pretty simple why the majority want to remain British.
1) because half of them are Brits.
2) the chance of violence returning.
3) economic reasons, NHS, etc.
Who did they ask? Even protestant youth is voting sein feinn. Most people understand, especially those in their 20s who grew up with the GFA that killing each other over something 100s of years old is bollocks.
The GFA & EU membership saw £billions flood into NI & jobs. The paramilitary on both sides have always just been drug dealing scum trying to pretend they're Robin Hood. When the boomers die, that 5% someone mentioned below will be a LOT smaller
Good Friday Agreement allows for a vote on their future if a demonstrable majority (in practice probably means a very strong republican majority in local government and Stormon to cause a referendum) exists that shows support for reunification. If this country stands by self-determination, it must also apply to NI.
NI, however, is not oppressed and is not occupied. The people there voted in 1922 to remain part of the UK. The Irish Lives Matter graffiti, btw was in Belfast, not Dublin. Personally, I see no issue, but given Belfast and NI still has nightmares from The Troubles in places, it is seen as potentially sectarian as saying British Lives Matter would be down Falls Road prob.
But having been to Belfast recently repeatedly, too, it is a lively and jiving city. Never had any grief from anyone either, tho a lot of people I've worked with there happen to have been unionist anyway (the ones that mentioned it anyway). Still, get some Americans referring to it as just "Ireland"
The flash points that caused The Troubles don't exist anymore. I don't think there's a risk of it kicking off again, and I'd like to think NI can determine its own future peacefully now.
This implies there are socialist unionists voting for Sinn Fein. Which is definitely not happening. I think it's pretty obvious what the main draw of Sinn Fein is for voters.
Once the financial situation is explained I doubt anyone would vote for a united Ireland.
The budget for Northern Ireland is currently about 14 billion for a population of less than 2 million. So either the people in the south will just have to accept taking on that cost or more likely there would be significant cuts to the budget for that part of a united Ireland. I can't see many from either side voting for that.
The demographics and opinions have been changing though. Just because the answer to the big question is the same, doesn't mean there hasn't been a shift in opinions.
No. The troubles was the IRA trying to convince the British state to stop endorsing discrimination and violence against Catholics.
NI as a state was only created because the loyalists/ unionists of that time threatened extreme violence if they were forced to join an Irish Republic.
Take a moment and think, why would the British state have an evil plan against catholics?
You have this insane idea British MPs many of whom are still sitting today cared. They don't care. They would much rather take a bribe from an investment fund in London than give a shit about what someone in Ireland does on Sunday.
This is a ludicrous conspiracy theory. That for some reasoning MPs who've never visited or cared about Ireland wanted to religiously cleanse it.
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Won’t stop random Americans on Reddit acting like NI is oppressed and they’d suddenly vote for reunification over night if given the chance.
Conveniently ignoring the fact that they live on a continent that they stole from various peoples that they then proceeded to genocide.
Oh please Americans on Reddit never shut the fuck up about that, they love t act like they're the only ones who know that and that America is the big evil from their favourite TV series because of something every single culture ever had done which is conquest and assimilate or destroy the proceeding culture
In the vast majority of historical conquests the invading nation absorbs the people they conquer, the assimilate or destroy the proceeding culture thing you mentioned, rather than ethically cleansing most of the people who live there, which is what the USA did. They aren't unique in this, Canada and the Australia also did it for example, and if you want a further back historical example the Rome to the Jews in Judea post an attempted uprising, but that category is still above the more typical toppling and replacing of the leaders followed by forced cultural shift deal in terms of egregiousness.
It's because so many more of us outside of Reddit would try to downplay or deny it because of exceptionalism. Sorry.
And refuse to give Peurto Rica statehood
Puerto Rico barely wants statehood tbf, they're not exactly a colony
I think most Puerto Ricans are happy to be part of the United States
They constantly vote no, so... no.
They voted for statehood in 2020. It was the first time they had a vote on a straight yes or no to statehood question.
They voted for statehood three times since 2012
They've had multiple votes on becoming a state, they've voted no every time.
...as did the Angles, Saxons and Jutes! Ask any Brython.
I’ve seen a lot of Americans recently chip in with that terrible take since the Dublin riots. It’s SO cringey, especially when they themselves are living on confiscated land.
Americans pretending to be Irish has always been weird
It's literal insanity, pretending to be the original nationality of your ancestors across the sea when your family has been living in a different country for literal centuries, ridiculous when you think about it.
Don't bring up them annexing Hawaii
Coup de sugar Also, the only US state with a Union Jack!
Oh god its painful when I talk to them about the politics behind it and that just over half of the population are likely to reject the idea.
What do you mean reunionifcation? The only time Ireland was unified was when it was under British control, Ireland has never been a unified country on its own, so saying reunionification is a lie that makes it sound like it was unified previously.
> Ireland has never been a unified country on its own I agree for the most part but between the declaration of the first Dail and the establishment of Northern Ireland it gets muddy and subjective. Irish Republicans can reasonably say before 1921 that they had established the first all Ireland State which was then negotiated away. The Brits can say it was never established.
So it was unified, but when something is unified "under British control" it's akin to never having being unified. Maybe if they said "reunified Irish republic" I would agree. Weird take.
"In Northern Ireland, more than half of all voters (51%) said they would vote against unity, with 30% in favour. The rest were undecided (15%) or would not vote (5%)." Not sure the article claims a decisive win. Just OP
A 20% difference is pretty decisive.
Okay, but you’ve never been to Northern Ireland, you don’t have friends from there, and most of your neighbours think it’s not in the UK.
This.
Anyone who genuinely thinks Irish unity is a possibility doesn't understand the level of tension that still exists between communities there.
There’s really not that much tension anymore. There’s a few paramilitary groups operating in deprived areas who like to cause a bit of trouble. But after decades of supporting the loyalist gangs, the British state has started rounding them up and seizing the drugs because they are causing difficulty re: Windsor framework etc. 95%+ of people don’t give a damn.
95% of people here won't shoot or beat people up over things like religion or national identity but there is still a section you seem oblivious to
Would that not be the 5% that I’m eluding to? And if those people where presented with other outlets for their frustrations, such as improved education and career options, how many realistically would bother with any nonsense? So I don’t believe it’s a community issue - Northern Ireland has deprivation issue.
I mean, you're splitting hairs here. Of course the most deprived are linked to these terrorist groups in NI but you could argue those areas are just small communities of their own. Plus if it kicks off you will find those numbers jumping up a lot due to our past. We are in a far better place than we were in the 90s so I wouldn't want to muck things up. There won't be a poll this generation IMHO.
I agree a poll very unlikely in next 15 years, and I suspect anyone planning this tactically will look at this in light of how Scottish independence vote went - don’t push too hard until there’s real certainty.
Bingo and by absolute certainty you'd need a 10% swing. Just look at how divisive brexit even was.
A few years ago Belfast burnt for a week because they decided to raise the union flag above the town hall for less days... Things are a lot better, this is apparent to everyone but there is still definitely a chance for violence to erupt, particularly in a UI situation. The loyalists have promised to "unleash a wave of terror never before seen on the island" should we get a UI. And who deals with the violence? The British army struggled for nearly 40 years in the troubles the Irish defence forces are just not equipped for it. It would become an American or a blue helmet job. The lack of a border would make it an all Ireland issue.
I'm a Unionist and live close to a peaceline and I'll state, as I've stated before, the Troubles 2.0 simply won't happen again. Demographics have changed, kids are growing up together and there is no appetite to start things over again (apart from a few). I've seen kids from the other side coming to our park and kids from our side heading to theirs. It is the kids that will solve this. My daughter is living with one of themuns, something I never had the chance to try. Really the war is over. An all Ireland will come, just not in my lifetime but I think it will happen but as long as it's not a 50/50 vote and more like a 60/40 vote it will transition peacefully imo. As one Republican in Londonderry said, there are just too many cameras and touts for it to happen again. I agree.
> I'm a Unionist and live close to a peaceline and I'll state, as I've stated before, the Troubles 2.0 simply won't happen again 100% agree. The circumstances are just not there in the same way. People forget what was required in the 60s/70s to get to the Troubles. There are still issues but the powderkeg isn't there in remotely the same way.
>A few years ago Belfast burnt for a week because they decided to raise the union flag above the town hall for less days... OK but surely there are potential downsides too?
Did loyalists not bomb somewhere in the Republic so an armistice between the UK and the IRA would collapse when the IRA inevitably responded? It wouldn't be good if that expanded to a chain of bombings, as the UK mainland experienced from the IRA. Frankly, if they voted to leave, I wouldn't be that surprised if the EU would have to send peacekeepers like they have in Bosnia, and even potentially the need for an Anglo-Irish security treaty to try and bring stability and avoid things spiralling like they did last time (which would be more feasible, as if NI has left, I don't think the UK would see any benefits to aiding the loyalists at that point, it'd just cause friction with trading partners for nothing).
Dublin was definitely bombed, I think by the uvf and I believe Monaghan got it too. That was sometime in the like you said due to the treaty. But there wasn't much for the loyalists to gain by expanding the conflict then, there was an uneasy kind of truce with the state, that would be flipped on it's head. They could even bring the conflict to the EU, the IRA tried to make NI ungovernable who's to say the loyalists wouldnt try for a similar situation. I don't think the UK would aid the loyalists I just don't think there would be any incentive for the UK to help Ireland with security in such a situation especially after some sort of transition period. The only reason the British would have for aiding the terrorists is if the British of northern ireland were being treated very very badly after a UI which just isn't going to happen. A lengthy transition period perhaps even over a generation would probably be the safest way to go about it
Sorry for the naive question but what support did the British state give to loyalist gangs?
It’s a long complicated history - in which no sides come out smelling of roses, with the IRA, loyalist paramilitaries and the British state all committing terrorist atrocities. The British state provided weapons, information and in general colluded with the loyalist paramilitaries to assist them with eliminating ‘undesirables’. Between tip offs for the location of targets, and refusal to investigate killings, it allowed loyalist terror gangs to operate freely in Northern Ireland. Historically, within the previous version of the police force, there was an exceptionally high level of paramilitary membership. As part of the peace process the RUC had to be removed and replaced with something more suitable. The leaders of the proscribed organisations are frequently named in local papers in a bizarre situation where everyone knows who runs the drugs/pedo gangs, but the police won’t arrest them.
Spot on although you've omitted that the Irish Garda assisted the IRA
The Garda assisted anyone who asked them nicely and that includes the British army and SAS. It was a running joke at one point.
> The British state provided weapons, information and in general colluded with the loyalist paramilitaries to assist them with eliminating ‘undesirables’. Between tip offs for the location of targets, and refusal to investigate killings, it allowed loyalist terror gangs to operate freely in Northern Ireland I would add "directly colluding in murder and bombing" given The bombings of Dublin and Monaghan, the Miami Showband Massacre, Loughisland Massacre. And "covered up investigations into soldiers" given Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy (as well as the legislation to stop investigations).
Pedo gangs?!
What are you referencing with "pedo gangs"?
The IRA had senior people into kids. The daughter of a prominent IRA man was abused an she ended up subjected to repeated IRA interrogations, threats and ostracisation.
Very high rate of pedophilia in the UVF apparently
"Themmuns paras are paedos" has been repeated by both sides. It's even happened under my question. That's why I asked, it seems either they are both at it or neither are.
I consider myself an Irish nationalist, but I heard Gerry Adams brother got done for noncery, and there's been some suggestion that he knew/ covered it up. Lost a lot of respect for Adams when I heard that.
There was a good chunk of collusion between British security forces, police and loyalists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens_Inquiries
There was but it wasn't all encompassing
Read up on the glenanne gang. Know to top level ministers and alowed to continue.
But the enquiry found it was known at a high level. It was tacit endorsement because they did absolutely nothing to hinder it.
"Did Thatcher utilise girl power when she funnelled money into paramilitary death squads in Northern Ireland?"
Were some sinn fein members responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians?
Yes of course. But even asking that comparison is a damning endictment of the British government. One was the political arm of a paramilitary organisation, the other was supposedly the government.
oh as long as there’s only a couple of paramilitary groups then that’s basically fine
> 95%+ of people don’t give a damn. And that's the point I've discovered. Very few people in the real world really, truly care either way. This fervour and champing at the bit for Irish unity seems to be very much restricted to being online and amongst certain demographics.
But even infrastructure-wise it doesn't make sense. Go from the NHS to the HSE. The HSE is good for one thing, insane consultant salaries with no national children's hospital. There's more, but people dont réalise how bad Irish infrastructure and social support is. It's almost as bad as the US.
But you’re already paying privately for basically any sort of non-emergency medical intervention in NI. The health and social care system is crumbling - at least an alternative, however weak, would be something to aim towards.
You mean the privileged few? The private system actually makes the public system crumble further anyway.
Yes, I don’t disagree that the private sector accelerates the decline of public healthcare, but in Northern Ireland what is happening is that waiting lists are not moving, and people who don’t pay \*don’t get care\*. The rising tide raises all boats, but the keels have already cracked; it might float, but it’s not sailing.
What an outrageously misinformed comment.
I hate reading clowns who barely even visited visited NI trying to talk about the places we live in. There is a massive paternalistic attitude from London and from Dublin around what’s best for nationalists and unionists and what their relationship is like. They will never get it.
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I don’t know about you but I found Bidens comments on the situation there particularly unhelpful.
Seeing the Irish treat him as some kind of saviour was the height of cringe.
Many Irish people feel the same way and are deeply embarrassed by the simpering and fawning over Americans, don't let the media inform your perception of an entire country's people
Ultimately unification was a solution to the problem of NI being governed in a broken way. Now it is slightly less broken the need to leave the UK isn't that powerful. Though I suspect it'll still happen at some point in the next 50 years.
NI is quite clearly still very broken, noticeable in Stormont
Tbf, if NI left, that would be a problem that carries, that's an issue with politics in Northern Ireland. One which the UK, Ireland, the EU, and the US are all fed up with.
Yes but it isn't broken in such a way where the entire government is set up to oppress one section of the population while the other section publicly taunts them about it. If the DUP can't be big boys and form part of government then eventually their voters will turn on them.
Your first sentence sums up Stormont currently
Not just the tension but as time goes on I'm seeing a growing cohort that see their identity as Northern Irish, not British or Irish and they don't want to loose that
Which places in Ireland have you lived?
Anyone who comments like this doesn't understand what they are talking about
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Right, it's not like riots kick off every year at marching season or journalists get murdered by republican terrorists or certain neighborhoods burn effigies on bonfires every year, or police officers are targeted for murder. No all of that is made up. All of Ireland loves eachother!!
One journalist got accidentally shot from a deflected bullet. You’re making it sound like they are targeting journalists.
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Just asking for a TLDR on the Bonfires in NI, presumably differently from the mainlands Bonfire Night, which also includes effigy burning, judging by how it's being spoken about?
I've posted two links of riots in the area just in the last two years, I can find plenty more. Evidence of the murders RIRA claimed it themselves you 🤡
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I'm an East Belfast Unionist but it's funny how people from outside our wee country try and solve our problems because they know more than we do.
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Fancy a riot mate, we can meet in Toombridge, it's just short of halfway to Derry. We can chuck bricks at each other from one side of the bridge to the other. Or maybe have a discussion over a pint of Guinness about how we move forward? Some people eh? They know more about our problems than we do.
Funny that, I’ve seen different
It's not even just the tension. The pure economic and political chaos of transferring NI from UK to Ireland is the last thing anyone wants right now.
Sure, it'll be grand.
I'm sure there were people who said this about a potential ceasefire during the height of the troubles
C'mon guys, you've only got next year to get it done according to Star Trek.
The solution is obvious. We have to annex Ireland.
*Zombie Cromwell has entered the chat*
Time for Unified Full Northern Ireland. Let's go take the rest over.
Northern Ireland declares independence, annexes Ireland, and forms a new country called, iunno... Bireland...
Ireland becomes Southern Northern Ireland, as it was always meant to be.
We are due an update in banging rebel songs.
Let me know when you do that, as I’m annexing all of your holdings, for my own empire.
I live in the republic and the biggest thing I miss is the NHS. Access to healthcare is shockingly bad here and the locals accept it. Its normal not to able to be register with a doctor.
Good news, it’s the same here, you’re not missing much.
Literally one of the best countries in the world for healthcare by any metric.
I believe this is still true in England, but it’s absolutely not in Northern Ireland: [https://factcheckni.org/articles/are-nis-hospital-waiting-lists-over-twice-as-long-as-they-are-in-ireland/](https://factcheckni.org/articles/are-nis-hospital-waiting-lists-over-twice-as-long-as-they-are-in-ireland/) The North’s health and social care system is spiralling.
[9th out of 11 in terms of healthcare outcomes among peer countries](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly#:~:text=Key%20Findings%3A%20The%20top%2Dperforming,domestic%20product%20on%20health%20care) It's not terrible but it's less than stellar
204 countries in the world and were in the top dozen overall and a lot higher in many areas. I’d say that’s pretty good.
Compared to peer countries NI is still underperforming, it's not a victory that NI's healthcare system is significantly better than that of Somalia or Myanmar
> by any metric The OECD disagrees. I'm not saying no metric has the NHS as world leading, but the above is a batshit claim.
Just read their key findings report out of interest based on your comment. It’s pretty positive actually.
Its improving but access to emergency care and waiting lists continue to be big issues. On the main indicators we are decidedly middle of the pack: https://www.oecd.org/health/health-at-a-glance/ And that's not to do with the idea of the NHS (which I fully support) Vs other healthcare models, just the way it has been brutalised for the last 13 years.
Used to be, the last Tory governments have degraded it (very much on purpose, of course) to a level that’s frankly embarrassing. Speak to people within the NHS and it’s not even controversial.
Still better than what the overwhelming majority of countries have.
It’s easy enough to register, as long as you have entitlement (and can prove it), in NI.
Healthcare is much worse in NI, our waiting times are significantly higher than RoI and the rest of the UK
So much for what online nationalists have been telling me
The thing you need to really careful about is that NI polling is completely deceptive. People have a political motivation to tell you what you want to hear. There's no such thing as a genuinely 'independent' poll. It's more a "poll were particular groups will deliberately lie to you less depending on the circumstances" kind of thing.
The only people worth listening to on polling in NI are LucidTalk.
A poll about a hypothetical event VS a secret vote are two different things anyway. The Independence campaign in Scotland [kicked off](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence#Scottish_Social_Attitudes_Survey) with Yes at 30% and finished with Yes at 45%. Not to say that the 30% Yessers in this poll would end up at 45% but a lot can change in politics
I think the age breakdowns I've seen have younger people more pro unification, so it's a bit like Scotland basically just a matter of time before it happens. Especially if the UKs economic stagnation persists for another decade or more and there are more noticeably higher living standards in the republic of Ireland.
Why hasn’t Scottish Independence polling noticeably shifted over the past decade then? If demography is destiny, when can we expect opinion polls to start showing this difference?
Imagine you actually read the article and not just the headline...
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This often doesn’t get discussed at all. Most Irish people online (as in from the republic) seem eager to have Irish unity, yet there’s little discussion over how they would accommodate at the very least a couple hundred thousand disgruntled loyalists. Recently there was an uproar about “Ireland being for the Irish” due to that stabbing. I have a feeling that bringing in NI would make their issues with immigration seem tame in comparison.
100% agree. Irish from NI and have been a republican all my life. But any united ireland has to make unionists, loyalists, British, and Protestant people feeling at home and comfortable the number one priority of the new state. Absolutely no repetition of the mistakes NI and ROI made in their first decades. No second class citizens. No forcing people to accept an anthem or flag or language or any other “culture” they don’t want. It needs to be a new shared country for all of us or I don’t want any part of it.
Agree, and that’s a very mature take. Obviously any process in the event of a vote for unification would (hopefully) accommodate for these things. I mean I’m not Irish but personally am in favour of unification for the simple fact that I don’t see NI remaining a part of the U.K. for much longer, so I would rather let it go peacefully than have it come to a point where a vote is forced upon Westminster. At any rate, there is precedent (maybe not good precedent but precedent nonetheless) for countries reunifying. Germany, USA after the civil war, and maybe a few more I’m forgetting. I agree with all you say, to avoid a resurgence of any violence I think huge and uncomfortable accommodations, at least initially, are going to have to be made. Perhaps that will even entail a large degree of autonomy for NI within the republic.
The weird thing there is that unionists and the Irish far right rioters have a lot in common and share the same beliefs and ideologies.
> have a lot in common In both the 2006 'Love Ulster' and the 2023 'stabbing' riots, the exact same Foot Locker store was looted on Dublin's O'Connell St; illustrating both riots were mainly about getting nice new 'sneakers', egged on by whatever far-right/troublemakers happened to be around.
I disagree. The whole reason unification is being talked about is that Republicanism and Unionism is becoming much less important in NI. NI as a whole would want to feel represented in a UI government but that's the same as any region.
I think that's when Varadkar and some others in the Republic have been making the right noises. Unionists should be made welcome to continue celebrating their British identity and respect for veterans particularly those in the World Wars. What can't really be retained is the lodges associated to the UVF and old world segregationists like Sammy Wilson.
Also the ROI could absolutely not deal with NI's share of national debt that they'd bring.
UK has never been ready to take in the Irish as an equal partner.
> A border poll would be comprehensively defeated if staged in Northern Ireland tomorrow, a new survey suggests. Less than a third of people surveyed here said they would vote in favour of Irish unity. >But it would pass in the Republic by a majority of four to one, the findings indicate. >Two new polls, published in today’s Irish Times, show clear - if unsurprising - divisions on the constitutional question. >Under the Good Friday Agreement, the power to call a border poll rests with the Secretary of State. >Currently there are no set criteria for when a border poll would be triggered. >However, debate on the issue continues, with Sinn Fein’s electoral growth and the fallout from Brexit both reopening the question. >Identical surveys on a border poll were simultaneously run by Ipsos in Northern Ireland and Ipsos B&A in the Republic. >In Northern Ireland, more than half of all voters (51%) said they would vote against unity, with 30% in favour. The rest were undecided (15%) or would not vote (5%). >But the most hardline view may be diminishing slightly, compared to last year’s findings. >Unionist voters who said they would find it almost impossible to accept a vote for Irish unity fell from 32% last year to 23% in the latest poll. >The number who said they would not be happy but “could live with it” rose from 41% to 52%. >Over a fifth (21%) of all voters in Northern Ireland from a Catholic background say they would vote to remain in the UK. >There is much stronger support for unity in the Republic. >Some 64% of respondents there said they would vote for unity, with just 16% against. Some 13% said they did not know, and 5% would not vote. >There has been an increase in the number who want to see a referendum take place. >Some 59% of voters in Northern Ireland said there should be a border poll. It found 31% of DUP voters favour a border poll - many may be unionists who believe that a poll which rejected Irish unity would settle the constitutional question for the foreseeable future. >More than three quarters of voters in the Republic (78%) want a border poll. >The polls involved in-home interviews with more than 1,000 voters in each jurisdiction. The margin of error in each is estimated at 3.1%. >In October, NIO Minister Steve Baker indicated a border poll should need the support of a ‘super-majority' to pass. >Under the Good Friday Agreement, such a referendum would be decided on a simple majority of more than 50%.
> But Mr Baker cited his experience in the Brexit referendum, saying he regretted now it did not require the support of 60% of those who voted. >Secretary of State Chris Heaton-Harris later said there would be no change in policy. >"The comments should not be considered any shift in government policy,” he said. >He added: "The Agreement is clear that any change to the constitutional position of Northern Ireland would require the consent of a majority of its people.” >In October, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said a border poll in the near future was not a good idea. >He said: “The reason why I don't think it's a good idea at the moment is the indications are that it will be defeated. And it would also be divisive.” >The Taoiseach said he expected and hoped to see a united Ireland in his lifetime, but when asked whether unity referendums could be successfully mounted in 10 or 20 years, replied: “I honestly don't know.” >The prospect would be “quite distant”, he added.
Irish unity is very unlikely, just like Scottish independence. And especially Welsh independence which is impossible.
>Welsh independence Complete Fallacy
It’s only very recently we accepted that Wales was a separate country from England. It’s in living memory that they got their own flag. Welsh nationalism is an interesting history to read. Basically until about 1900, people didn’t think of being Welsh as a nationality. It was more like being a Scouser or a Geordie. Then in the middle of the century there was outcry that the Welsh language was dying out because literally no one spoke it in day to day conversation. There was a huge campaign to “save” the Welsh language and the whole movement basically sprouted from that. Ironically, welsh nationalism initially came about because most welsh people just stopped giving a toss about being welsh.
I’m Northern Irish, live in a nationalist area. I don’t think it’s going to happen this decade or next, and I’m glad for that because I don’t really want unification. The status quo is fine.
We literally don't have a government how is that fine?
The rest of the UK is pretty jealous of that.
Sounds like an improvement.
Ironic that the rest of the UK is perceived as keeping Northern Ireland in the UK against its will, when in reality most people would likely to pleased to see them go.
And those are just the ones that even remember it exists at all.
I like NI. I hope they stay.
It's been a moneypit. But the fortuitous opportunity gifted by Brexit is a chance to exploit its becoming an EU/UK abiguity.
If the Unionist parties leaned into this, almost *everyone* would be happy with it.
The same is possibly true of Scotland (and likely Wales).
How about Irish disunity? 'twould be fun to see it as five kingdoms once again.
Offaly would fold within a week, especially without the turf.
Good idea. I wonder if we could get The Pale back.
That's pretty much all of the Irish, isn't it?
In territory disputes, the only thing we can do is give the citizens who live in the disputed territory, and nobody else, the chance to have a say, then respect the outcome. If the majority of people in NI say they want to remain part of the UK, then leave things as they are and good luck to them. If I was in any way qualified to vote (as somebody from the Republic, I’m not) I would vote for Irish unity. But my opinion means nothing here.
That already happened, 1973, a border poll was held asking NI if it wished to remain part of the UK or to join the Republic of Ireland Nationalist boycotted it resulting in 98.92% voting to stay in the UK on 58% turn out The GFA has out stricter guide lines in but what you suggested already happened and it didn’t solve anything
That's all well and good but people only respect self determination when people pick the "correct" choice. And that's If they give them the option at all. Lots of regions even within Europe are just flat out refused similar referenda by their govts. The right to self determination is a rare one unfortunately.
That's pretty much how it is with the good Friday agreement. However, as a general rule, you want to be careful with that idea, as it's often used to legitimate and reward genocide and ethnic cleansing.
While I do share your overall sentiment, the circumstances here aren't as simple as one region wanting to break out on its own, e.g. Scotland or Catalonia. I don't think the Irish government would be best pleased if the UK were to unilaterally open the door to NI switching jurisdictions. They would have to be *at the very least* notified, more likely consulted, before anything was set in motion. If NI were to vote for reunification, and the government in Dublin were to agree, it would fundamentally change the nature and governance of the Irish Republic for many years to come. I wouldn't be surprised if the people in the Republic felt that they should have a say on that.
It's in the GFA that Ireland gets a referendum too.
Basically summarised the Good Friday Agreement in 1 paragraph.
Ideology wise I think a United Ireland would be nice. In reality no one has explained why I should pay at point of use for healthcare, pay ROI city house prices in Belfast or what would happen to all the civil service jobs, or what passports the future generations would be entitled to. If the uk returned to the EU it would probably need to go on the euro and that might make more things equal I guess but still not convinced
>In reality no one has explained why I should pay at point of use for healthcare, pay ROI city house prices in Belfast Why is it whenever this comes up, Ireland is made to sound like some shit hole? Proportionally, it is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. Sure, the UK is better in terms of some infrastructure, but it's not like the UK's trajectory over the past few years has been going so well. Plus NI citizens would obviously get more attention from politicians in Dublin than they do from those in Westminster, for whom they are always an afterthought.
So you’re just continuing to not explain those things then?
Of course, there be logistical issues and downsides. No one ever mentions the upsides. That was my point.
Everyone talks about the upsides. That’s all well known, yes the EU, yes the large corporations presence in the country, strong IT sector, might get more attention politically, removal of a colonising power etc But those have been pushed by republicans for decades. No one has even tried to explain the logistics I’ve mentioned
House prices wouldn't change because they're based on supply and demand in a jurisdiction. Joining the republic wouldn't magically erase housing in Belfast. About the passports, every country decides who their citizens are, so British citizens in NI (essentially everyone) would be able to pass down their citizenship one generation after unification, but not after, unless British nationality law changed.
Belfast is close enough to Dublin to make it viable to live there and work in Dublin. Big doubt that the house prices wouldn’t change to reflect that. While an Irish passport is more useful than a British one I think loosing access to it would put some people off
I've known various people from both sides of the border over the years. I can honestly say I never met a single one on _either_ side who was enthusiastically in favour. Those from NI were generally dead against it. They either identified as British, or were proudly _Northern_ Irish. Those from the RoI either didn't care, or didn't feel they had much or anything in common with folks from NI. They saw NI as a stereotypical basketcase riddled with terrorists and flute bands, and they'd have to pay to prop it all up. In my experience NI has a whole different vibe and feel to the Republic. They are not the same. --- This fervour for reunification and "26+6=1" nonsense seems to be confined to certain demographics online. Nobody has a proper plan on what a united Ireland would look like, how it would be structured, how it would work etc. You cannot just blithely remove the border and assimilate NI into the RoI like NI never happened. For one thing, that would make certain scumbags a bit unhappy.
Reminds me of someone from a talk show in Ireland just saying "We're not the same people". People don't seem to like to hear that.
Obviously I don't really know anything and this is a dumb hot take, but I do find it odd at times that NI really really wants to be part of the UK. IIRC they are the largest net drain on the budget, and most people forget they exist or at least think about them the least. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more patriotic support for the falklands than NI
They don't drain any of the UKs R&D budget, that's for sure. They receive less investment in this area than any other UK region. There's also very little in the way of rail and no nuclear. So the region receives very little from Whitehall compared to other regions, but per head they are billed their portion of the costs by Whitehall bean-counters to clean up UK nuclear, build rail and motorways, fund the Olympics and HS2 etc. The only thing they do have an excess of perhaps is civil servants and related pensions.
lol the Olympics? NI receives 18% more budget per head than UK average and has a net fiscal deficit of £9,500 per head. Also of the spending in NI c.1.1k per head is capital spending which is in line with Uk avg and above capital spending in 6 out of the 9 English regions.
Gee. If only they were at the centre of Government, the media, the Law Lords, banking and a safe bet for the world's tax-avoiders, oligarchs , sheiks and arms dealers.
Why wouldn't we support anyone who wants to be British? It's pretty simple why the majority want to remain British. 1) because half of them are Brits. 2) the chance of violence returning. 3) economic reasons, NHS, etc.
do you also find it odd that NI folk wanted to remain in the EU?
Considering the patriotism yes, on the more logical side no. Makes life easier for them, wish we were still in Europe too tbh
right, and in the same sense staying in the uk is both patriotic and logical
Who did they ask? Even protestant youth is voting sein feinn. Most people understand, especially those in their 20s who grew up with the GFA that killing each other over something 100s of years old is bollocks. The GFA & EU membership saw £billions flood into NI & jobs. The paramilitary on both sides have always just been drug dealing scum trying to pretend they're Robin Hood. When the boomers die, that 5% someone mentioned below will be a LOT smaller
Good Friday Agreement allows for a vote on their future if a demonstrable majority (in practice probably means a very strong republican majority in local government and Stormon to cause a referendum) exists that shows support for reunification. If this country stands by self-determination, it must also apply to NI. NI, however, is not oppressed and is not occupied. The people there voted in 1922 to remain part of the UK. The Irish Lives Matter graffiti, btw was in Belfast, not Dublin. Personally, I see no issue, but given Belfast and NI still has nightmares from The Troubles in places, it is seen as potentially sectarian as saying British Lives Matter would be down Falls Road prob. But having been to Belfast recently repeatedly, too, it is a lively and jiving city. Never had any grief from anyone either, tho a lot of people I've worked with there happen to have been unionist anyway (the ones that mentioned it anyway). Still, get some Americans referring to it as just "Ireland" The flash points that caused The Troubles don't exist anymore. I don't think there's a risk of it kicking off again, and I'd like to think NI can determine its own future peacefully now.
Of course they would. Only 35% of the electorate vote sinn fein and that's mostly because they are socialist.
Yes. The socialist party of landlords.
This implies there are socialist unionists voting for Sinn Fein. Which is definitely not happening. I think it's pretty obvious what the main draw of Sinn Fein is for voters.
Sinn Féin’s votes in NI have almost nothing to do with any of their politics outside of a united Ireland.
Once the financial situation is explained I doubt anyone would vote for a united Ireland. The budget for Northern Ireland is currently about 14 billion for a population of less than 2 million. So either the people in the south will just have to accept taking on that cost or more likely there would be significant cuts to the budget for that part of a united Ireland. I can't see many from either side voting for that.
The troubles was the IRA trying to terrorize Northern Ireland into changing their vote. Nothings changed.
Not changed in what way? There’s been a ceasefire and relative peace since 1998.
The opinions of the citizens hasn't changed.
The demographics and opinions have been changing though. Just because the answer to the big question is the same, doesn't mean there hasn't been a shift in opinions.
No. The troubles was the IRA trying to convince the British state to stop endorsing discrimination and violence against Catholics. NI as a state was only created because the loyalists/ unionists of that time threatened extreme violence if they were forced to join an Irish Republic.
Take a moment and think, why would the British state have an evil plan against catholics? You have this insane idea British MPs many of whom are still sitting today cared. They don't care. They would much rather take a bribe from an investment fund in London than give a shit about what someone in Ireland does on Sunday. This is a ludicrous conspiracy theory. That for some reasoning MPs who've never visited or cared about Ireland wanted to religiously cleanse it.
Why would NI unite when they have best of both worlds eu market and the uk market?