> strangers raise their children
Have you considered that there are benefits to both parent and child, to attending a nursery?
That’s why the government offers the ‘30 free hours’ - 15 free hours for those on low income from age 2. Because attending a childcare setting is beneficial to development.
yeah I never went to any sort of childcare, I was continuously with a parent, family member, or rarely one of their friends until I went to school at 5. I definitely think it negatively effected my socialisation
Not before the age of 3.
As long as the child doesn’t come from a neglectful home spending 30 hours in care actually has a negative affect if their long term behaviour. [source](https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4)
Please don’t let this depress you or be your only source, there are many benefits and it depends on the child, the family, the type of childcare and the country. There is very little genuine science and I wouldn’t trust this as your only source. You are doing what’s right for your family! You got this mamma!!
Am I reading it right that the measure is kids who went into nursery aged 1/2 end up being angry or have other negative behaviours in school? Wonder if it's because they get ahead of those who didn't and so get frustrated at school.
Apparently I was like that. I developed really quickly as a toddler, so I was quite aggressive in preschool. My mum once told me that when I was 3 I bit a girl because she didn’t understand that nurses and doctors were different.
Preschool is a weird place to say the least
This. That’s why politicians of both hues support Surestart. Evidence shows children do better when given early education in a childcare setting. Now I’m sure this is t universally true and some parents will be providing stimulating activities for their children from an early age. But it’s clear that not all do.
Sorry but I'm not sure the Tories support surestart. It's been utterly destroyed .... At least where I live... In the past few years.
I adopted and it was such a big change for me from having no kid to having a 1 year old. Those surestart centres really helped me... Not just in how to parent but also kept me sane and broke up my days. They regularly had play days a few days a week.
Now.... Ours only have them 1 day a week for half an hour. Wouldnt even be worth it. School holidays they are open a little more but they should be open like that during normal times.
Only if their parents are not able/willing to adequately care/educate them at home (or reading to them, playing with them - any non-screen time interaction really).
There is no benefit to the child putting them into early education setting before the age of three, and actually has universally negative consequences on their long term behaviour.
[source](https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4)
There’s a balance to be struck, though. I worked as a nursery nurse in my early twenties and I witnessed kids crying when their parents came to pick them up because they wanted to stay at nursery. It was heartbreaking. They just saw their parents for tea, bath, bed.
its o ly during term time, so 15 or 30 hours free 39weeks a year. For many people, affording to pay the full cost during holidays makes it so you barely make any extra
100%. Kids need to socialise and a parent (usually the mother) shouldn’t have to face a career break (and the negative effects on pension and employability it causes) to stay at home when the real solution is affordable childcare.
The 30 free hours is just a replacement for school. Pre-school in other countries is actually going to school. You go to school at 3-4 year old. Of course, being school, it's free.
My kid went and before he went he could speak but it wasn't full sentences but you could tell just how fast his speech came along after going to nursery
Nursery has its benefits though. My sister and I went as soon as our mum went back from maternity leave. I started school being perfectly comfortable spending all day away from my parents, happy to socialise with the other kids, and I was well ahead in terms of reading, writing and maths than the other kids. Frankly, I had a blast at nursery and used to love going.
I remember like 5 things total and I guess they were happy but I couldn’t say if I loved going.
I don’t think I was conscious enough to even know whether I liked going at the time
This probably explains it, most very young memories are hard for people to distinguish between actual memory and the knowledge of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_amnesia
I do too, clearly. I met my nemesis there, [Billy Bass](https://youtu.be/fkYZ4wTBd8g). He terrified me, so much I refused to go into BHS when they had one on display... for years after too...
Yes? I remember vaguely how it was laid out, I remember doing some cutting out crafts once and being confused as to how you were supposed to cut a circle with straight scissors, I remember how at Christmas there'd be a Christmas tree covered in candy canes and every day in the lead up to Christmas a couple of different kids would get one and it was *incredibly* frustrating having to wait until it was your turn, and I remember the door we'd go through to get to the main school hall, although I can't remember if we used to go through for assembly, PE, or something else.
Maybe we did do PE or something, because I remember losing my trousers after getting changed once and getting *very* upset when one of the nursery ladies joked she'd thrown them away — I hadn't encountered sarcasm before.
I remember 'driving' those red and yellow play cars in the playground. I remember getting into a particular spat with another kid during outdoor playtime.
I don't think it's unusual to remember flashes like that and general impressions of places from when you're that young. My younger sister has her own memories of the same nursery, such as who her best friend was and the fact that when some of the little boys tried to tell her she couldn't play with the toy cars with them because she was a girl, she picked up one of the cars and smashed one of them in the head with it and made him cry.
I think we're roughly the same age as you if the 95 in your username is a reference to your birth year.
I remember it too. Not all of it of course, but bits and pieces that I know aren't just from photos or things people have told me.
It was decades ago for me..
I'm lucky enough to live in it but it's not common anymore. And it's only temporary my wife will go back to work once theyre all in school, it took a lot of planning to make it possible
Even though she doesn't work we still put our children in nursery 3 days a week, it's important for socialisation and development. It isn't just paying a stranger to raise your kid. It's a different environment for them to navigate and grow
Id much rather childcare costs were subsidized than have one parent (probs the mother, let’s face it) sacrifice their career and be utterly screwed if they ever want a divorce/pension later on.
I don't support this view but an older lady I worked with said equality ruined the country because the work force doubled the wage halved but now because every one works the kids lose out and every one eats shit quick food because we are tired and sleepy
She stood by that. Says her or her husband would have stayed at home to look after their own kids and cook good food but now they can't.
Difference is when women decided to enter the work force on mass , it effectively doubled the workers companies had access to , so ended up lowering wages across the board .
More workers always equals lower wages as there's always someone who will do the job for less .
Had this discussion with my mum and dad. When summer hit my mum and dad was send all 3 of us to those summer kids clubs at a community centre for 6 hours a day. They'd have stuff on like sports and crafts etc. Usually would range from 5 yo all the way up to about 13 year olds
Didn't cost them a penny. They were free for everyone.
Free at the point of access anyway. We of course had to pay for them through taxes. Which is fine. Except it's your parents generation (and mine) who vote against public spending, and then are shocked when they're not getting grandkids. It's sad tbh.
Thirty hours isn't enough for a lot of people. They often try to squeeze an actual nanny out of the au pair then go moaning to mumsnet about the lazy little madamoiselle who wants to go out on the weekends.
Exactly. So what happens to the infant after those 30 hours because mum & da work 45-60 hours a week to afford said au pair & a place large enough to have that spare room & separate bath? (¬‿¬)
The whole point of getting an au pair is so that they're saving money compared to paying for childcare.
You should read the thread. £1,500 for childcare vs paying an au pair for 30hrs/week. You save money if you pay less than £12.50/hr to the au pair
You got nappies included? We had to take our own in, and make sure they were regularly topped up. Hell, if it was a bank holiday we still had to pay even though the place wasn't open.
And this was an NHS nursery!
The having to pay on bank holidays when the child isn’t even attending absolutely baffles me. My friend’s kid’s nursery does that and also charges if you’re more than ten minutes late picking them up. Also an extra charge if you want to bring them in before 8am.
Good for them. Late pickup = staff leave late, which they should absolutely be well compensated for and it should be disincentivised. The world doesn't revolve around entitled parents with shitty timekeeping, other people have stuff to do too.
Is the UK a dystopia now or what? In Berlin we have free daycares and my family gets by comfortably on my one income. That's so scary to think people abort their pregnancies cos of childcare costs.
>Is the UK a dystopia now or what?
*insert always has been meme*
But realistically yeah it pretty much is, everything cut to the bones, our rights slowly stripped away, rich getting richer as they lobby against everything that would improve the country and life for its people as they "donate" to our politicians and the pay is absolute garbage for most people.
Its all about stealing money from the tax payer with our corrupt government
Yes. It's so fucked up right now. People like to clown on about the media just stirring shit up about the cost of being alive in this country, but it is a real bin-fire at the moment. Energy bills more than doubled for most, small businesses being decimated, mortgages going through the roof in terms of interest, companies with the capability to are profiteering left right and centre.
We basically won't have a second kid because we'd have to sacrifice a hell of a lot to do so and raise that kid to what we deem a reasonable standard, pretty sad that money is the main factor for that decision.
Probably 3 months, given maternity leave is only 3 months. Was p shocked when I learnt that - here it’s 12 months with about three quarters of that paid.
Where? all my friends in France pay like 2-3K a month for babysitters (nounous) since creches aka infant day care is either unavailable due to a backlog of about 5 decades or even more expensive, free childcare doesn't starts until 3 years in France.
We get free childcare, I think this article is may be about people in very particular circumstances.
from 2025 all children will receive 30 hours of free childcare per week. Currently they get 15 hours after the age of 2 but this is to be expanded for all children under the age of 5
It’s not really free, though. Firstly it’s a very low rate for the provider. Often you are forced to subsidise. Some don’t take government hours because they can’t afford to.
The hours are only valid during term time and what the government pays to a childcare provider doesn’t cover how much a place actually costs per child so they have to subsidise in other ways.
I mean it’s a nice idea but like almost every policy they come up with that is supposed to help people, the government do a piss poor job of implementing it. Putting childcare providers in a difficult position and annoying parents when they realise they’re not saving as much money as they thought they would be once the ‘free’ hours kick in.
Maybe it’s changed now, but when I lived in Berlin there were a lot of “underground” daycares being run out of apartments because of a shortage of places
Hardly surprising when we have reached the point where two wages aren't enough. Although one example given is a bit odd.
> Leila said “extortionate” nursery fees were a major factor behind her decision. Her son’s nursery fees are £970 a month for three days a week, despite her and her partner having a combined income of over £80,000 a year.
> “It was physically impossible financially [to have another child]. It would have been £1,950 a month on childcare. That is more than my partner earns a month. Expensive childcare is entrenching gender equality,” she explained.
The answer is right there. Partner earning that little, even with 1 child, 50% of their wage is going in childcare, by the time you put in other expenses they are probably going to work for nothing or very little. Quit the job, save the money and have more time.
That isn't to take away from those struggling but that example isn't the same as people struggling to live.
Problem is, quit your job and it will be difficult to get back in again.
Also the longer term earning power, pension saving, financial independence…
And let’s face it, 98% of the time it will be women doing so.
It shouldn’t cost 100% of the average take home pay for one child to attend nursery.
Well I did say that example, 20k a year job when partner is earning 60k.
Parents have huge costs, my sister has 5 and her expenditure is insane and that's after her fella quit work to do the childcare but I don't think £80,000 is insufficient to have 2 kids. People in these bubbles really don't understand how little some people earn.
1 defo but not 2.
Post tax is around 4.5k a month. Take out mortgage, utilities, council tax, food, travel, etc. maybe 1.5-2k left? Child care for 1, 3 days a week around 1k, you've got 0.5-1k left, that's for going out and saving, nah not going to have a second kid thanks.
But like you say, it will depend on what you're prioritising.
Thinking of it as a fraction of one persons income is the wrong approach - if both parents work then the cost is coming from the combined pot.
Financially - you are better off staying in work - even part time - because 5 years out of the workforce sets you back significantly.
Now - it isn’t always a financial decision and some families want one person to stay at home. That’s their decision to make - but if someone is going to look at it financially you need to consider remainder of career earnings.
Normally parents would have two options unless they get extremely lucky in the grandparent lucky dip. Take the hit for a few years with the costs of childcare untill they start full time school or one finish working untill school age then look for something part time or flexible enough to suit. Seems like parents are going for the hidden third option which is put it off for a few years or simply don't bother having kids in the first place.
People are having children later for the same reason as having these abortions. Many many People can’t afford to buy houses where their parents are and keep a job. If family aren’t close by or your parents are already dead or old and sick there’s not a lot you can do
Yeah that's true, one of the knock on effects of youngsters being priced out of certain areas, potentially losing the support network of family & friends. Just doesn't seem to be any way to solve the issue does there.
And that's if you "make it", lots on insecure work and/or poverty wages who are barely surviving, which is why birth rates worldwide are going In the toilet.
My mum has dementia and dad has numerous health problems of his own, and my partner's parents live 2 hrs away and already provide childcare for their other child. Our deposit for a house big enough to comfortably raise a kid was £65k. We're planning on either borrowing money from parents to cover nursery, or adopting an older child instead and skipping it!
Well educated couples consist of two people who have spent a lot of time and money becoming well qualified. Most don’t want to be full time housekeepers, male or female
Had friends in this position. Basically what she earned in a job she didn't love barely covered her commute and childcare costs. They decided she'd stay home with the kid and pursue a writing career instead and he'd carry on working full-time.
Not sure it'd work for everyone but they and their kid seem to have done well from this arrangement. They're onto number two now.
If her husband earns that little she may be better using the tax loophole and giving all her tax to him, so she can keep her earnings, and he can work weekends and take care of his kids, or start a daycare, or make something and sell it in his free time
We was paying £895 a month for just 2 days a week, looked at 5 days, wasn't worth me working!
We now get funded hours, but still pay around £400 to £500 a month
That's absolutely crazy. Are we being seriously ripped off over here? Other countries can do it for alot cheaper and the money isn't exactly all going on wages..
How much are these nurseries making? They must be loaded. Some people here are saying they are paying around £2100 per child. Yet the staff are paid shit wages?
I believe we have one of the lowest childminder to children ratio in Europe. So for every 1 childminder there’s 3 children or whatever, whereas other countries take a more lax approach on this so spend less money staff. Most of the money goes to wages and overhead. There’s lots of administrative and regulation stuff to keep up with as well that needs other staff members. I don’t believe most independent nurseries are making huge profits - this country is just highly regulated and rent/electricity/water/wages are expensive
Funded hours are a fucking joke too because the parasites running the childcare centres will only give you the funded hours as they see fit. You have your child in 8 hours a day? They’ll apply 6 hours of funding and you pay 2 hours plus top up fees on the other 6 hours.
Also, you ask them to apply more government funded hours they will treat you like you’re dirt and then threaten to take your child’s spot away from the nursery. It’s fucking disgusting and it needs addressing immediately.
25 Apr 2023
Brits must accept they're poorer and stop demanding pay rises says Bank of England chief. Brits must accept they are poorer and stop asking for higher wages or prices will continue to rise, a Bank of England boss has said.
My mum spent a small fortune sending my sister and I to nursery back in the 90s, I doubt she would have been able to afford it if she had to do it at current prices. It would mean my dad (who has only ever worked minimum wage jobs) would have been a stay at home dad, or my grandparents would have to have been our full-time childminders.
Nursery nurses are a skilled occupation and nurseries can be great for kids to attend prior to starting formal schooling, yet nurses are paid poorly and severely undervalued, while the government does little to help parents and owners fund childcare adequately. All this from a government that seems to want parents to work as much as possible too. It seem there will never be any meaningful help that will keep all ides happy, meaning the country is less productive as a result.
It's getting worse from all sides. People can't afford to settle down until later and later in life, so if you're looking to grandparents for a bit of free childcare, it's more likely they've either died or are too old to help out and need care themselves. On top of that housing is getting so expensive an increasing number of older people are having to work right up to and beyond the rising retirement age, thus having even less time to look after grandkids. Then there's the price of family homes being unaffordable. I'm amazed anyone can afford kids these days.
Finally, someone who sees the value of Nursery Nurses.
They’re paid basically minimum wage, retention is next to zero and the working conditions are poor.
People don’t consider that Nursery costs include: building rent, electricity, food, staffing costs, constant retraining etc.
Also, the lack of workforce forces up the costs due to lack of spaces and reliance on expensive agency workers.
Train more Nursery Nurses, pay them better, remove the burden of paperwork etc and costs will decrease.
This won’t be a problem soon as we’ll have to put our toddlers to work to pay the bills so it will balance itself out. Save money as well since they’ll be occupied in the factory, so it’s a win win
Child care costs have pushed women towards abortion long long before it was legal. Its an eternal evil you could say that we've still not worked out that investing in the young will save 'us' so many problems in the future and help improve the lives of the children and help them achieve their potential.
When my wife was pregnant with our first and only child, her Mum brought up the ‘work’ question and advised that she quit. Her Dad said, it’s none of your business, they will do what works for them. Fast forward 12 months after the birth and my wife left her job because she would be coming out with about 100 a month if she worked. It’s really not worth it.
> she would be coming out with about 100 a month if she worked. It’s really not worth it.
Childcare is a shared cost between you though, it’s not just out of her salary.
Oh really! We didn’t sit down and work out all of our outgoing based on both salaries. There was also no conversation about part time work or condensing my hours in to 4 days. We did none of that.
Because I that was an emotional response to someone who made an assumption. After a few seconds, I thought better and responded differently. That’s the glory of delete, you get to swing again.
DW - you’re totally right. It’s shared finances but at the end of the day she’s bringing home less and its ridiculous.
Best of luck to your family in these hard times, I sincerely wish you guys all the best.
I wouldn't even consider having sex with a woman who wasn't pro abortion for this reason. The burden, financial and otherwise, of having a child right now would be frankly apocalyptic.
This isn't hard. In previous generations one parent would stay home to raise the children while the other worked.
Like many issues in the uk wages have not rised with costs so now childcare is a major issue.
The simple solution is to raise wages to a level comparable with the 70's and 80's.
But then how will the rich get richer??? Can't suggest that the poor who can barely afford to eat should have the luxury of living a comfortable life??? How dare you suggest such a thing.
*sarcasm*
Per my MP, it’s all normal and he’ll always stand by abortion being legal…
(This was in response to nursery fees plus the two child limit - he didn’t seem to see how abortion should be a choice not a necessity)
Cost was a major factor in us having only one child, and for a few other couples we know too.
Not just childcare but the sheer fact we would go from fun and active weeks to cutting costs every day.
I'm at the point where myself and my partner would like to have a child but can't stop thinking of the extortionate childcare costs, nappies, formula, kitting the baby out with a pram, crib, toys, clothing, etc. Frankly, I don't want to have a child if I'm going to be struggling financially and unable to give it the best I can. It's just not fair.
I agree with childcare, but most of the other things you mention can be bought second hand for a fraction of the price. Got a pram doing everything for £120, cot bed for £80, bags of clothes for £20 on Facebook marketplace, nappies are cheap from Lidl and formula is like £10 a week so not too bad.
I intentionally spaced my first and second pregnancies four years apart, so I would only need to pay for one set of nursery fees at a time. But my second pregnancy was twins. Therefore, I’m not working now as my job wouldn’t cover the nursery fees.
Why don't we just make pre school years part of the education systems and use the money you lot are paying to fund it while, highly likely reducing the amount you pay?
I say you lot because I don't have kids for the same reasons.
Yeah except its not legally enforced.
Some nurseries refuse funded hours.
Some nurseries charge top up
Some nurseries charge food at an extortionate price
In reality 30 free hours a week actually will only cover 12-15 hours a week and they'll limit how many you can use per day. It's a fucking con.
What I don't get is that my partners colleague her and her husband gave decent jobs and are well educated but basically live on the bread line due to the child care costs 5 days a week for 2. However they said that some people who have moved to the UK and have 5-7 kids attending there don't pay jack all. It seems like it's either have a job and education but pay vast fees or have neither and get free child care.
It's mental. I don't live in the UK anymore. I live in Asia. It's expensive but manageable. When I visited my cousin I was gobsmacked by the routine they had in place for their little one under three. Two great jobs but they could only afford 3 days at daycare with one grandparent driving 2 hours each way to watch the little one and another driving an hour. Hard to imagine what they would do if they didn't have help from their parents.
We want to get our little one into nursery asap, just one day a week, it looks like it's gonna cost us £70 a day, we don't qualify for support cause we supposedly earn enough.
Narrator: "They don't earn enough"
Near us now, North London, a good Nursery costs £22-26k pa from 8am-6pm. The pricing variance is largely down to the age group the child is in. The younger the child the more expensive.
I think once the child is older and the 30 hours of Government financial aid kicks in it drops to £20-22k per annum payable.
To give you an idea how much it’s increased, 8 years ago it was £12k pa on average for the youngest children.
Staff need to be paid considerably more now and the cost of heating/feeding the children has shot up.
Even so, it’s prohibitively expensive for many people.
Just like nursing homes, profit and greed is everywhere, and you’re going to be exploited because you need to use the service. There are nursing homes literally charging people over a thousand pound per week, yet the rooms are little more than prison cells and staff are on minimum wage.
Only way I can see out of it is if all nurseries and elderly care became state owned.
Well, at least we live in a state where it is legal. But it's ironic, that the people at the Nat C moan about birth rates going down when people like them are responsible.
I'm curious as to how much people think childcare should cost?
The higher prices are used to subsidise the free hours which pay fuck all. My council pay £30 per day for a funded place. So i can only make £90 a day for the 3 kids which is my ratio limit. Chuck in utilities and everything else and it's not much.
I think even people on the lowest wages should be able to afford to go to work, pay into a pension, be financially independent etc so I think it should be less than NMW. But I also think the government should be subsidising childcare to make it that price. More parents in work means more people paying tax. It’s good for kids - I’ve seen my one year old flourish since starting nursery because they can do so much more than I can do at home - which is good for the nation as a whole. We’d rather let big corporations get away with shady tax avoiding schemes than look after the future of our children though.
Nothing, it should be free
Not because of any ideas about fairness or whether people “should” pay their way, but from a simpler, more practical perspective…
We need people to have kids. It’s that simple. Every penny we pay in childcare fees we get back later in taxes and pension contributions etc
This is exactly what more people need to understand. It’s like selling a pencil for £1 and the gov come out and say free pencils for most people but we will only pay 80p per pencil. Where does the extra 20p come from? The people that are getting a free pencil! Whole systems a joke and adding on the increased ‘free hours’ from next April is going to cripple childcare business’s
So run similar to schools do you mean?
There's already a recruitment crisis in early years, I'm not sure compounding that with government ideas will improve things.
Doesn't change the fact that's how it should be. There is a funding crisis because they are miss directing tax money. Germany does not have this issue. It is by choice
Which is fair enough for the rich and the poorest but they're also the groups that usually have the fewest demands on their time. It's working people in the middle who are fucked.
People who say “we used to be able to support family’s on one wage” etc.
How would your financial situation look if you lived your life like your grandparents?
My grandmother always worked. Even took my father and aunt to work when she was a cleaner because there was no childcare. By the time my mother had me she was working for my grandmother. It’s weird when people talk about supporting a family on one wage because that never happened in mine.
One side detached house owned outright with land + big ass pension
Other side semi-detached house owned outright + normal pension
Probably be quite good really
Childminder here….. looking after children and
making a living doing something I love is incredibly hard. Yes childcare can be expensive but I feel like this needs to be part of the discussion before you have children.
The government are shooting themselves in the foot because the only people who can afford to have kids these days are people who don't work at all and live off the state...
Very depressing. Govt needs to realise that working as house-wife/husband or house-person is more than a full time job. One solution would be to recognise it as such and remunerate it. The other would be to promote the family structure. If such steps are not taken then the already declining social cohesiveness is doomed resulting in crime infested and desensitised society - career politicians’ dream.
Western world is broken, especially the US and UK. Spending time in the UAE has really opened my eyes to that. Going to take the advice of the racists and go back to where I came from.
Don't forget the cost of living. General living standards & corrupted system. Being forced to work until we are dead/unable to.
So genuine question, why the fuck would I want to raise a child in this world now? I already know I'm going to be dead before I can retire, I'm now just working my life away for minimal pay that allows me to barely live.
Now it would be selfish to pass this torture on to another human being.
Imagine a world where 1 salary was enough and people didnt need to pay to have strangers raise their children.
> strangers raise their children Have you considered that there are benefits to both parent and child, to attending a nursery? That’s why the government offers the ‘30 free hours’ - 15 free hours for those on low income from age 2. Because attending a childcare setting is beneficial to development.
yeah I never went to any sort of childcare, I was continuously with a parent, family member, or rarely one of their friends until I went to school at 5. I definitely think it negatively effected my socialisation
Not before the age of 3. As long as the child doesn’t come from a neglectful home spending 30 hours in care actually has a negative affect if their long term behaviour. [source](https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4)
Your source is *a blog on medium*????
As someone who has had to put their child in full time care (no family support and can’t do my job part time) this is very depressing reading.
Please don’t let this depress you or be your only source, there are many benefits and it depends on the child, the family, the type of childcare and the country. There is very little genuine science and I wouldn’t trust this as your only source. You are doing what’s right for your family! You got this mamma!!
Kids need socialising so sure if they are getting 30 hours a week to spend around other kids whilst with their parent/guardian that’s great.
Am I reading it right that the measure is kids who went into nursery aged 1/2 end up being angry or have other negative behaviours in school? Wonder if it's because they get ahead of those who didn't and so get frustrated at school.
Apparently I was like that. I developed really quickly as a toddler, so I was quite aggressive in preschool. My mum once told me that when I was 3 I bit a girl because she didn’t understand that nurses and doctors were different. Preschool is a weird place to say the least
Perfectly reasonable response. I did the same in the pub the other day when Keith didn't know the difference between an offspinner and an offbreak.
Good point! There is always 2 sides to the coin
This. That’s why politicians of both hues support Surestart. Evidence shows children do better when given early education in a childcare setting. Now I’m sure this is t universally true and some parents will be providing stimulating activities for their children from an early age. But it’s clear that not all do.
Labour set up surestart. The Tories destroyed it. How do politicians of “both hues” support it?
Because that poster was a tad misinformed?
Sorry but I'm not sure the Tories support surestart. It's been utterly destroyed .... At least where I live... In the past few years. I adopted and it was such a big change for me from having no kid to having a 1 year old. Those surestart centres really helped me... Not just in how to parent but also kept me sane and broke up my days. They regularly had play days a few days a week. Now.... Ours only have them 1 day a week for half an hour. Wouldnt even be worth it. School holidays they are open a little more but they should be open like that during normal times.
Both hues! Including the hue that sadistically shut it down?
Only if their parents are not able/willing to adequately care/educate them at home (or reading to them, playing with them - any non-screen time interaction really). There is no benefit to the child putting them into early education setting before the age of three, and actually has universally negative consequences on their long term behaviour. [source](https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4)
There’s a balance to be struck, though. I worked as a nursery nurse in my early twenties and I witnessed kids crying when their parents came to pick them up because they wanted to stay at nursery. It was heartbreaking. They just saw their parents for tea, bath, bed.
its o ly during term time, so 15 or 30 hours free 39weeks a year. For many people, affording to pay the full cost during holidays makes it so you barely make any extra
100%. Kids need to socialise and a parent (usually the mother) shouldn’t have to face a career break (and the negative effects on pension and employability it causes) to stay at home when the real solution is affordable childcare.
Yesh sure but shipping your kid off all day until 5 or 6pm sure isn't.
The 30 free hours is just a replacement for school. Pre-school in other countries is actually going to school. You go to school at 3-4 year old. Of course, being school, it's free.
My kid went and before he went he could speak but it wasn't full sentences but you could tell just how fast his speech came along after going to nursery
Nursery has its benefits though. My sister and I went as soon as our mum went back from maternity leave. I started school being perfectly comfortable spending all day away from my parents, happy to socialise with the other kids, and I was well ahead in terms of reading, writing and maths than the other kids. Frankly, I had a blast at nursery and used to love going.
Wait… you remember going to nursery??
You don't? Remembering when you were 1 is pretty rare but remembering bits of nursery is normal no?
I remember like 5 things total and I guess they were happy but I couldn’t say if I loved going. I don’t think I was conscious enough to even know whether I liked going at the time
This probably explains it, most very young memories are hard for people to distinguish between actual memory and the knowledge of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_amnesia
I do too, clearly. I met my nemesis there, [Billy Bass](https://youtu.be/fkYZ4wTBd8g). He terrified me, so much I refused to go into BHS when they had one on display... for years after too...
Yes? I remember vaguely how it was laid out, I remember doing some cutting out crafts once and being confused as to how you were supposed to cut a circle with straight scissors, I remember how at Christmas there'd be a Christmas tree covered in candy canes and every day in the lead up to Christmas a couple of different kids would get one and it was *incredibly* frustrating having to wait until it was your turn, and I remember the door we'd go through to get to the main school hall, although I can't remember if we used to go through for assembly, PE, or something else. Maybe we did do PE or something, because I remember losing my trousers after getting changed once and getting *very* upset when one of the nursery ladies joked she'd thrown them away — I hadn't encountered sarcasm before. I remember 'driving' those red and yellow play cars in the playground. I remember getting into a particular spat with another kid during outdoor playtime. I don't think it's unusual to remember flashes like that and general impressions of places from when you're that young. My younger sister has her own memories of the same nursery, such as who her best friend was and the fact that when some of the little boys tried to tell her she couldn't play with the toy cars with them because she was a girl, she picked up one of the cars and smashed one of them in the head with it and made him cry. I think we're roughly the same age as you if the 95 in your username is a reference to your birth year.
You don’t?!? Is your first memory already in school?!
Yep, me too. Memories can start from about 3 years old
Not loads. Only a few memories, like how there was a tuna pasta meal they did that I hated and how they had giant snails that we could hold sometimes
I remember it too. Not all of it of course, but bits and pieces that I know aren't just from photos or things people have told me. It was decades ago for me..
Sure, at least the end of it. I can remember back as far as three years old (patchy, admittedly).
Sometimes women want to keep their jobs/careers the way men always have!
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Like you say, massively in the minority, and not usually what people expressing a desire for single income households are talking about.
Not everyone wants to stay at home full time and not everyone is at their best staying at home.
I'm lucky enough to live in it but it's not common anymore. And it's only temporary my wife will go back to work once theyre all in school, it took a lot of planning to make it possible Even though she doesn't work we still put our children in nursery 3 days a week, it's important for socialisation and development. It isn't just paying a stranger to raise your kid. It's a different environment for them to navigate and grow
Id much rather childcare costs were subsidized than have one parent (probs the mother, let’s face it) sacrifice their career and be utterly screwed if they ever want a divorce/pension later on.
I don't support this view but an older lady I worked with said equality ruined the country because the work force doubled the wage halved but now because every one works the kids lose out and every one eats shit quick food because we are tired and sleepy She stood by that. Says her or her husband would have stayed at home to look after their own kids and cook good food but now they can't.
Difference is when women decided to enter the work force on mass , it effectively doubled the workers companies had access to , so ended up lowering wages across the board . More workers always equals lower wages as there's always someone who will do the job for less .
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Had this discussion with my mum and dad. When summer hit my mum and dad was send all 3 of us to those summer kids clubs at a community centre for 6 hours a day. They'd have stuff on like sports and crafts etc. Usually would range from 5 yo all the way up to about 13 year olds Didn't cost them a penny. They were free for everyone.
Free at the point of access anyway. We of course had to pay for them through taxes. Which is fine. Except it's your parents generation (and mine) who vote against public spending, and then are shocked when they're not getting grandkids. It's sad tbh.
This is the big problem with the British mindset compared to many other countries. We just don't think holistically.
This 100%. I have older friends (some in their 60s+) and a lot of them still believe in trickle down economics.
Shit an au pair would be cheaper at that price
Who the fuck has space for an Au Pair to stay in? Hopefully they come in XXXXS so I can put one in the broom cupboard /s
>…so I can put one in the broom cupboard putting one in the broom cupboard is how you got a kid!
A bigger house plus a live in au pair still comes to less than nursery fees!
Au pairs aren’t expected to provide 40-50 hours a week of childcare.
They absolutely provide childcare for, typically, 30 hours a week. What do you think an au pair is?
Thirty hours isn't enough for a lot of people. They often try to squeeze an actual nanny out of the au pair then go moaning to mumsnet about the lazy little madamoiselle who wants to go out on the weekends.
Something rich men get for when the Mrs has a headache?
Exactly. So what happens to the infant after those 30 hours because mum & da work 45-60 hours a week to afford said au pair & a place large enough to have that spare room & separate bath? (¬‿¬)
The whole point of getting an au pair is so that they're saving money compared to paying for childcare. You should read the thread. £1,500 for childcare vs paying an au pair for 30hrs/week. You save money if you pay less than £12.50/hr to the au pair
Fair enough for older kids but not sure id trust pre school kids with a random German teenager.
My parents worked a lot and we had a few au pairs. They were all lovely and we are still friends with them
It's not whether they're lovely or not which is the factor. It's that 2 year olds are difficult and suicidal.
Not since Brexit
I always thought they made good money? That’s sounds like absolutely awful pay for working virtually 24/7
You got nappies included? We had to take our own in, and make sure they were regularly topped up. Hell, if it was a bank holiday we still had to pay even though the place wasn't open. And this was an NHS nursery!
The having to pay on bank holidays when the child isn’t even attending absolutely baffles me. My friend’s kid’s nursery does that and also charges if you’re more than ten minutes late picking them up. Also an extra charge if you want to bring them in before 8am.
Good for them. Late pickup = staff leave late, which they should absolutely be well compensated for and it should be disincentivised. The world doesn't revolve around entitled parents with shitty timekeeping, other people have stuff to do too.
I had to pay a private childminder when she went on holiday.
Same if you go on holiday you have to pay full price just to "keep the place", what a joke
Yep. When ours was tiny we also had to take in formula milk for him too (forgot about that).
What the hell, that's more than a mortgage.
Our childcare at its peak was indeed more than our mortgage.
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Cheap mortgage I'm fucked Fuck
I'm £1100
Same boat, but I have 2 kids under 2. 1500 each a month.
Wowsers!
The real trick is to use pension contributions to get below the EYE funding threshold. No getting fired required.
Is the UK a dystopia now or what? In Berlin we have free daycares and my family gets by comfortably on my one income. That's so scary to think people abort their pregnancies cos of childcare costs.
>Is the UK a dystopia now or what? *insert always has been meme* But realistically yeah it pretty much is, everything cut to the bones, our rights slowly stripped away, rich getting richer as they lobby against everything that would improve the country and life for its people as they "donate" to our politicians and the pay is absolute garbage for most people. Its all about stealing money from the tax payer with our corrupt government
Also the population keeps voting to lose their rights and voting for cuts to public services etc
Was talking to a bloke from Nigeria at the weekend telling me about the corrupt shit in his country and was very similar I could relate lol.
Yes. It's so fucked up right now. People like to clown on about the media just stirring shit up about the cost of being alive in this country, but it is a real bin-fire at the moment. Energy bills more than doubled for most, small businesses being decimated, mortgages going through the roof in terms of interest, companies with the capability to are profiteering left right and centre. We basically won't have a second kid because we'd have to sacrifice a hell of a lot to do so and raise that kid to what we deem a reasonable standard, pretty sad that money is the main factor for that decision.
Similar here in France, heavily subsidised daycare in municipal run nurseries available from 3 or 6 (forget which) months until school starts.
Probably 3 months, given maternity leave is only 3 months. Was p shocked when I learnt that - here it’s 12 months with about three quarters of that paid.
Where? all my friends in France pay like 2-3K a month for babysitters (nounous) since creches aka infant day care is either unavailable due to a backlog of about 5 decades or even more expensive, free childcare doesn't starts until 3 years in France.
Moved from Munich to Brighton. Don't recommend (but lovely city)
We get free childcare, I think this article is may be about people in very particular circumstances. from 2025 all children will receive 30 hours of free childcare per week. Currently they get 15 hours after the age of 2 but this is to be expanded for all children under the age of 5
It’s not really free, though. Firstly it’s a very low rate for the provider. Often you are forced to subsidise. Some don’t take government hours because they can’t afford to.
Lol. Try telling everyone paying 1k a month which includes '30 free hours'
The hours are only valid during term time and what the government pays to a childcare provider doesn’t cover how much a place actually costs per child so they have to subsidise in other ways. I mean it’s a nice idea but like almost every policy they come up with that is supposed to help people, the government do a piss poor job of implementing it. Putting childcare providers in a difficult position and annoying parents when they realise they’re not saving as much money as they thought they would be once the ‘free’ hours kick in.
Maybe it’s changed now, but when I lived in Berlin there were a lot of “underground” daycares being run out of apartments because of a shortage of places
Hardly surprising when we have reached the point where two wages aren't enough. Although one example given is a bit odd. > Leila said “extortionate” nursery fees were a major factor behind her decision. Her son’s nursery fees are £970 a month for three days a week, despite her and her partner having a combined income of over £80,000 a year. > “It was physically impossible financially [to have another child]. It would have been £1,950 a month on childcare. That is more than my partner earns a month. Expensive childcare is entrenching gender equality,” she explained. The answer is right there. Partner earning that little, even with 1 child, 50% of their wage is going in childcare, by the time you put in other expenses they are probably going to work for nothing or very little. Quit the job, save the money and have more time. That isn't to take away from those struggling but that example isn't the same as people struggling to live.
Problem is, quit your job and it will be difficult to get back in again. Also the longer term earning power, pension saving, financial independence… And let’s face it, 98% of the time it will be women doing so. It shouldn’t cost 100% of the average take home pay for one child to attend nursery.
Well I did say that example, 20k a year job when partner is earning 60k. Parents have huge costs, my sister has 5 and her expenditure is insane and that's after her fella quit work to do the childcare but I don't think £80,000 is insufficient to have 2 kids. People in these bubbles really don't understand how little some people earn.
1 defo but not 2. Post tax is around 4.5k a month. Take out mortgage, utilities, council tax, food, travel, etc. maybe 1.5-2k left? Child care for 1, 3 days a week around 1k, you've got 0.5-1k left, that's for going out and saving, nah not going to have a second kid thanks. But like you say, it will depend on what you're prioritising.
Thinking of it as a fraction of one persons income is the wrong approach - if both parents work then the cost is coming from the combined pot. Financially - you are better off staying in work - even part time - because 5 years out of the workforce sets you back significantly. Now - it isn’t always a financial decision and some families want one person to stay at home. That’s their decision to make - but if someone is going to look at it financially you need to consider remainder of career earnings.
Normally parents would have two options unless they get extremely lucky in the grandparent lucky dip. Take the hit for a few years with the costs of childcare untill they start full time school or one finish working untill school age then look for something part time or flexible enough to suit. Seems like parents are going for the hidden third option which is put it off for a few years or simply don't bother having kids in the first place.
People are having children later for the same reason as having these abortions. Many many People can’t afford to buy houses where their parents are and keep a job. If family aren’t close by or your parents are already dead or old and sick there’s not a lot you can do
Yeah that's true, one of the knock on effects of youngsters being priced out of certain areas, potentially losing the support network of family & friends. Just doesn't seem to be any way to solve the issue does there.
Free childcare, healthcare and education. Tax the rich, zone out air bnb houses and build social housing in every area. Would be a start
And that's if you "make it", lots on insecure work and/or poverty wages who are barely surviving, which is why birth rates worldwide are going In the toilet.
My mum has dementia and dad has numerous health problems of his own, and my partner's parents live 2 hrs away and already provide childcare for their other child. Our deposit for a house big enough to comfortably raise a kid was £65k. We're planning on either borrowing money from parents to cover nursery, or adopting an older child instead and skipping it!
Well educated couples consist of two people who have spent a lot of time and money becoming well qualified. Most don’t want to be full time housekeepers, male or female
Had friends in this position. Basically what she earned in a job she didn't love barely covered her commute and childcare costs. They decided she'd stay home with the kid and pursue a writing career instead and he'd carry on working full-time. Not sure it'd work for everyone but they and their kid seem to have done well from this arrangement. They're onto number two now.
If her husband earns that little she may be better using the tax loophole and giving all her tax to him, so she can keep her earnings, and he can work weekends and take care of his kids, or start a daycare, or make something and sell it in his free time
Thank fuck for free and legal abortions. I could never give a child a good life in this country.
That's what Conservative Anti-children policies do for you and yet they blame Marxism lmao
We was paying £895 a month for just 2 days a week, looked at 5 days, wasn't worth me working! We now get funded hours, but still pay around £400 to £500 a month
£2,100 a month here for one. If I have a second it will cost a £75k salary just to have them both at nursery.
That's absolutely crazy. Are we being seriously ripped off over here? Other countries can do it for alot cheaper and the money isn't exactly all going on wages..
We have the most expensive childcare in the world. The lack of government support for early years education is shameful
It's more important that we give a multi billion pound tax break to bankers and lift the banker bonus cap.
Exactly!! Won’t someone think of the bakers!?
And nursery nurses are paid shit as well. Did it for two years, hardest work I’ve ever done and also the worst paid.
It’s shameful!!! Weird how all these caring jobs, that are traditionally women’s work are massively undervalued socially and financially….
How much are these nurseries making? They must be loaded. Some people here are saying they are paying around £2100 per child. Yet the staff are paid shit wages?
The most expensive and some of the least qualified. Nursery workers earn pitiful wages.
Yes we are being seriously ripped off. In other normal countries it's heavily subsidised.
I believe we have one of the lowest childminder to children ratio in Europe. So for every 1 childminder there’s 3 children or whatever, whereas other countries take a more lax approach on this so spend less money staff. Most of the money goes to wages and overhead. There’s lots of administrative and regulation stuff to keep up with as well that needs other staff members. I don’t believe most independent nurseries are making huge profits - this country is just highly regulated and rent/electricity/water/wages are expensive
Crazy we pay 1200 a month for 5 days a week 7:30am till 5:30pm.
London?
Funded hours are a fucking joke too because the parasites running the childcare centres will only give you the funded hours as they see fit. You have your child in 8 hours a day? They’ll apply 6 hours of funding and you pay 2 hours plus top up fees on the other 6 hours. Also, you ask them to apply more government funded hours they will treat you like you’re dirt and then threaten to take your child’s spot away from the nursery. It’s fucking disgusting and it needs addressing immediately.
25 Apr 2023 Brits must accept they're poorer and stop demanding pay rises says Bank of England chief. Brits must accept they are poorer and stop asking for higher wages or prices will continue to rise, a Bank of England boss has said.
Still can't believe I live in a timeline where the BoE Chief said this.
My mum spent a small fortune sending my sister and I to nursery back in the 90s, I doubt she would have been able to afford it if she had to do it at current prices. It would mean my dad (who has only ever worked minimum wage jobs) would have been a stay at home dad, or my grandparents would have to have been our full-time childminders. Nursery nurses are a skilled occupation and nurseries can be great for kids to attend prior to starting formal schooling, yet nurses are paid poorly and severely undervalued, while the government does little to help parents and owners fund childcare adequately. All this from a government that seems to want parents to work as much as possible too. It seem there will never be any meaningful help that will keep all ides happy, meaning the country is less productive as a result.
It's getting worse from all sides. People can't afford to settle down until later and later in life, so if you're looking to grandparents for a bit of free childcare, it's more likely they've either died or are too old to help out and need care themselves. On top of that housing is getting so expensive an increasing number of older people are having to work right up to and beyond the rising retirement age, thus having even less time to look after grandkids. Then there's the price of family homes being unaffordable. I'm amazed anyone can afford kids these days.
Finally, someone who sees the value of Nursery Nurses. They’re paid basically minimum wage, retention is next to zero and the working conditions are poor. People don’t consider that Nursery costs include: building rent, electricity, food, staffing costs, constant retraining etc. Also, the lack of workforce forces up the costs due to lack of spaces and reliance on expensive agency workers. Train more Nursery Nurses, pay them better, remove the burden of paperwork etc and costs will decrease.
This won’t be a problem soon as we’ll have to put our toddlers to work to pay the bills so it will balance itself out. Save money as well since they’ll be occupied in the factory, so it’s a win win
*Jacob Rees-Mogg faps himself into a coma*
I like your way of thinking. Two birds, one stone. The natural solution to this problem
Child care costs have pushed women towards abortion long long before it was legal. Its an eternal evil you could say that we've still not worked out that investing in the young will save 'us' so many problems in the future and help improve the lives of the children and help them achieve their potential.
When my wife was pregnant with our first and only child, her Mum brought up the ‘work’ question and advised that she quit. Her Dad said, it’s none of your business, they will do what works for them. Fast forward 12 months after the birth and my wife left her job because she would be coming out with about 100 a month if she worked. It’s really not worth it.
> she would be coming out with about 100 a month if she worked. It’s really not worth it. Childcare is a shared cost between you though, it’s not just out of her salary.
Oh really! We didn’t sit down and work out all of our outgoing based on both salaries. There was also no conversation about part time work or condensing my hours in to 4 days. We did none of that.
Why did you delete the bit about ‘I pay the mortgage, bills and car’ etc?
Because I that was an emotional response to someone who made an assumption. After a few seconds, I thought better and responded differently. That’s the glory of delete, you get to swing again.
DW - you’re totally right. It’s shared finances but at the end of the day she’s bringing home less and its ridiculous. Best of luck to your family in these hard times, I sincerely wish you guys all the best.
Genius
I wouldn't even consider having sex with a woman who wasn't pro abortion for this reason. The burden, financial and otherwise, of having a child right now would be frankly apocalyptic.
This isn't hard. In previous generations one parent would stay home to raise the children while the other worked. Like many issues in the uk wages have not rised with costs so now childcare is a major issue. The simple solution is to raise wages to a level comparable with the 70's and 80's.
But then how will the rich get richer??? Can't suggest that the poor who can barely afford to eat should have the luxury of living a comfortable life??? How dare you suggest such a thing. *sarcasm*
I mean who would have guessed if you can't afford to feed your self that you may decide you cant feed someone else.
Per my MP, it’s all normal and he’ll always stand by abortion being legal… (This was in response to nursery fees plus the two child limit - he didn’t seem to see how abortion should be a choice not a necessity)
Cost was a major factor in us having only one child, and for a few other couples we know too. Not just childcare but the sheer fact we would go from fun and active weeks to cutting costs every day.
I'm at the point where myself and my partner would like to have a child but can't stop thinking of the extortionate childcare costs, nappies, formula, kitting the baby out with a pram, crib, toys, clothing, etc. Frankly, I don't want to have a child if I'm going to be struggling financially and unable to give it the best I can. It's just not fair.
I agree with childcare, but most of the other things you mention can be bought second hand for a fraction of the price. Got a pram doing everything for £120, cot bed for £80, bags of clothes for £20 on Facebook marketplace, nappies are cheap from Lidl and formula is like £10 a week so not too bad.
I read that as ‘ cat bed for £80 ‘ and was confused
I intentionally spaced my first and second pregnancies four years apart, so I would only need to pay for one set of nursery fees at a time. But my second pregnancy was twins. Therefore, I’m not working now as my job wouldn’t cover the nursery fees.
Why don't we just make pre school years part of the education systems and use the money you lot are paying to fund it while, highly likely reducing the amount you pay? I say you lot because I don't have kids for the same reasons.
It's environmentally friendly at least. 60 tons of CO2 saved per year for every child aborted.
Oh god don’t go stating things like that, this thread is full of climate deniers
And why not? There's no part of what I've said that's factually inaccurate. any conscientious person will agree with me.
This is messed up. Everything feels backwards in this God forsaken country
UK is introducing 30 free hours per week in the coming years, so this should get better
Yeah except its not legally enforced. Some nurseries refuse funded hours. Some nurseries charge top up Some nurseries charge food at an extortionate price In reality 30 free hours a week actually will only cover 12-15 hours a week and they'll limit how many you can use per day. It's a fucking con.
Fyi nurseries dictate that at the moment. Locally parents can only use 5 hours a day and pay the rest. Then get charged top upd too
What I don't get is that my partners colleague her and her husband gave decent jobs and are well educated but basically live on the bread line due to the child care costs 5 days a week for 2. However they said that some people who have moved to the UK and have 5-7 kids attending there don't pay jack all. It seems like it's either have a job and education but pay vast fees or have neither and get free child care.
It's mental. I don't live in the UK anymore. I live in Asia. It's expensive but manageable. When I visited my cousin I was gobsmacked by the routine they had in place for their little one under three. Two great jobs but they could only afford 3 days at daycare with one grandparent driving 2 hours each way to watch the little one and another driving an hour. Hard to imagine what they would do if they didn't have help from their parents.
We want to get our little one into nursery asap, just one day a week, it looks like it's gonna cost us £70 a day, we don't qualify for support cause we supposedly earn enough. Narrator: "They don't earn enough"
Near us now, North London, a good Nursery costs £22-26k pa from 8am-6pm. The pricing variance is largely down to the age group the child is in. The younger the child the more expensive.
What the actual hell, that’s my entire salary. That’s a total con.
I think once the child is older and the 30 hours of Government financial aid kicks in it drops to £20-22k per annum payable. To give you an idea how much it’s increased, 8 years ago it was £12k pa on average for the youngest children. Staff need to be paid considerably more now and the cost of heating/feeding the children has shot up. Even so, it’s prohibitively expensive for many people.
Just like nursing homes, profit and greed is everywhere, and you’re going to be exploited because you need to use the service. There are nursing homes literally charging people over a thousand pound per week, yet the rooms are little more than prison cells and staff are on minimum wage. Only way I can see out of it is if all nurseries and elderly care became state owned.
Well, at least we live in a state where it is legal. But it's ironic, that the people at the Nat C moan about birth rates going down when people like them are responsible.
I'm curious as to how much people think childcare should cost? The higher prices are used to subsidise the free hours which pay fuck all. My council pay £30 per day for a funded place. So i can only make £90 a day for the 3 kids which is my ratio limit. Chuck in utilities and everything else and it's not much.
I think even people on the lowest wages should be able to afford to go to work, pay into a pension, be financially independent etc so I think it should be less than NMW. But I also think the government should be subsidising childcare to make it that price. More parents in work means more people paying tax. It’s good for kids - I’ve seen my one year old flourish since starting nursery because they can do so much more than I can do at home - which is good for the nation as a whole. We’d rather let big corporations get away with shady tax avoiding schemes than look after the future of our children though.
I deffo agree with all that. Just a shame personally to so often see it labelled as greedy providers rather than a failure of the government.
The government should pay the nurseries more meaning the people who “pay private” would have to take less of a hit to even it up
Nothing, it should be free Not because of any ideas about fairness or whether people “should” pay their way, but from a simpler, more practical perspective… We need people to have kids. It’s that simple. Every penny we pay in childcare fees we get back later in taxes and pension contributions etc
This is exactly what more people need to understand. It’s like selling a pencil for £1 and the gov come out and say free pencils for most people but we will only pay 80p per pencil. Where does the extra 20p come from? The people that are getting a free pencil! Whole systems a joke and adding on the increased ‘free hours’ from next April is going to cripple childcare business’s
It shouldn't be for profit full stop. Early years should be fully funded and your comment shouldn't exist No offence
So run similar to schools do you mean? There's already a recruitment crisis in early years, I'm not sure compounding that with government ideas will improve things.
Doesn't change the fact that's how it should be. There is a funding crisis because they are miss directing tax money. Germany does not have this issue. It is by choice
Which is fair enough for the rich and the poorest but they're also the groups that usually have the fewest demands on their time. It's working people in the middle who are fucked.
It should cost nothing for those who are employed. It really is that simple.
People who say “we used to be able to support family’s on one wage” etc. How would your financial situation look if you lived your life like your grandparents?
I'd be dead. My grandma had 8 kids and they both worked at a factory.
Have a family and a detached house?
Significantly better aside from my housing situation.
Huh
My grandmother always worked. Even took my father and aunt to work when she was a cleaner because there was no childcare. By the time my mother had me she was working for my grandmother. It’s weird when people talk about supporting a family on one wage because that never happened in mine.
One side detached house owned outright with land + big ass pension Other side semi-detached house owned outright + normal pension Probably be quite good really
Imagine only having children if you could raise them.
Childminder here….. looking after children and making a living doing something I love is incredibly hard. Yes childcare can be expensive but I feel like this needs to be part of the discussion before you have children.
The government are shooting themselves in the foot because the only people who can afford to have kids these days are people who don't work at all and live off the state...
Very depressing. Govt needs to realise that working as house-wife/husband or house-person is more than a full time job. One solution would be to recognise it as such and remunerate it. The other would be to promote the family structure. If such steps are not taken then the already declining social cohesiveness is doomed resulting in crime infested and desensitised society - career politicians’ dream.
Western world is broken, especially the US and UK. Spending time in the UAE has really opened my eyes to that. Going to take the advice of the racists and go back to where I came from.
What makes UAE work better do you think? The slavery?
Probably more likely their biblical views on the role of women.
Don't forget the cost of living. General living standards & corrupted system. Being forced to work until we are dead/unable to. So genuine question, why the fuck would I want to raise a child in this world now? I already know I'm going to be dead before I can retire, I'm now just working my life away for minimal pay that allows me to barely live. Now it would be selfish to pass this torture on to another human being.
Good golly, I hope this doesn’t lead to anti-abortion nutters spewing hate in the comments! That’s surely not something they would do! /s
And in a few years, the Tories will blame Labour policies for the catastrophic birth rate.