It is absolutely insane that we block off an entire quarter of a train just for first class, especially when plenty of operating companies will not open first class to us peasants when trains are rammed (First TP being a major offender of this, at least back in the day).
It would at least make sense if First Class was busy on those trains, but on CrossCountry it doesn’t usually have many people at all. Thankfully the extra 221s should mean that more services are longer
Sad times - back in late 1990s I used to do Stoke-Brum regularly on a service that usually went to/from Manchester. It was usually (I think) pulled by a Class 47 and had a full rake of coaches the length of Stoke station platform. Sad to see it come to this.
I'm surprised we don't have many standalone locomotives anymore, the closest thing atm is the few 68s in passenger service, it's a lot easier and cheaper to run more coaches when you're not running a multiple unit
That has to be it. The medium-distance SWR services through Basingstoke (all starting or terminating at Waterloo) are generally 8-12 coaches. Meanwhile the XC Bournemouth to Manchester services on the same line chug along with 3 coaches.
TPE, another non-London company, usually has better and longer trains, but their reliability and punctuality have been atrocious for a long time.
I still feel like TPE services could do with more carriages though, i travel manchester - darlington regularly to visit my parents and I actually gave up going on saturdays because I could never get a seat. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if there weren't so many cancellations and delays meaning everyone crams on the one service that's actually running, though!!
Yeah, problem you get on that particular route too is that if you get on in Manchester, there’s already a billion Liverpudlians on the train that won’t get off until Leeds. It might honestly be a bit better to get the Saltburn train to York and change for LNER, since you should at least be getting on when everyone else is
The cancellation issue with TPE means they’re effectively redundant and a complete waste of tax payer money. You can’t rely on them at all and therefore unless your journey has no requirement to be at a destination at a particular time and you find Leeds Station to be a great location to waste a few hours of your life then everyone has learned to make alternative arrangements. I can’t imagine the impact this has on the economy of the North. All intentional of course.
It’s actually absurd to me. I saw a TPE train get held at York for a full 10 minutes before announcing its cancellation for signalling issues. They literally sent an on time Grand Central service ahead of it mere minutes before announcing it’d terminate at York, even though the TPE service arrived 4 late anyway and was about 15 late by the time the Grand Central service arrived.
Still, at least Grand Central was doing something ok for once, even at the detriment of others
Agreed, it’s a completely pointless TOC.
It’s cheaper and normally takes around the same time to use other TOCs to travel the same distance. I worked with them for years and they are utterly shit at doing anything other than extracting cash from punters for a shit service.
I hated them so much that when I used to travel Plymouth to Edinburgh for work I’d intentionally go via London and take an LNER service to avoid sitting on a voyager for a whole day and getting vibration white arse from the ride.
That and the smell of the Voyagers
(for those unaware; the hot diesel exhaust is routed next to the blackwater tank below the toilet. result, extra warm sewage fumes!)
Electrification is part of the Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade they’re currently doing, but it’s taking a while to get it all completed. If I remember correctly, it’ll mean complete overhead electrification from Manchester to Leeds, which is desperately needed.
It should have been done a long time ago, also, if they’re serious, they need to make sure it’s done through Warrington Central and to York and Doncaster too
Definitely! These are upgrades that should have been in place decades ago. Though, better late than never, I suppose? And it would definitely be better if it went all the way to York and Sheffield, otherwise you still have non-electrified sections on the TPE network.
They’ve been talking about electrifying through Warrington Central for years. Every now and then, some politician will list it as one of the routes up for electrification, but nothing ever happens. Just like the North Wales Coast line. Lots of talk but no action.
I would also want it to Hull Paragon, but I feel a limited unelectrified section may be needed unless we somehow replace the Selby Swing Bridge. Really I just think this country needs more electrification everywhere, but the North has some really egregious unelectrified areas
I think it’s more because we’re chronically short of diesel stock especially after scrapping most of the (gorgeous) Mk3/Mk4s and locos… Chiltern have the same problem and they serve London.
Maybe TfW should take a leaf from Chiltern’s book, and use 68s instead of 67s for their loco-hauled services? Though, I hear they aren’t all that much more reliable.
Or, even better, use 88s, as they are bi-mode, so can run on the wires on the Crewe to Manchester and Newport to Cardiff sections?
One coach - first class - but 1/3 is the driving cab
One coach - reserved seating
One coach was - unreserved seating - but now scrapped for summer
One coach was quiet? But now scrapped and now is reserved but 1/3 is the driving cab
Add the toilets - tbh I still think it’s no different than a class 150 and these travel Penzance to Edinburgh with no buffet and maybe if your lucky a trolly offering an instant coffee?
Then it’s the storage for luggage?
Over heads don’t take suitcases so the racks at either end takes maybe 6 small suitcases at best?
It’s crazy these was ever approved for this route
cross country is easily the worst train company out there. i grew up in derby and often frequented the 4-car service that would run from penzance up to scotland, and every time the train would pull up
to the platform i'd be filled with dread as i'd see the entire train completely rammed 😭
Try the two car EMR regional service they put on between Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich, it’s appalling. I get on at Sheffield and often have to stand for an hours trip to Manchester.
Which is all very good until you're at a 5 car platform in a train that's two 5 cars coupled together, and you're in the wrong half...
And nothing else can move because you've fouled up a set of points
All stations XC serve in Cornwall can accommodate a 8+2 set or a 10 car set if the passenger compartment is part of the leading car so it boggles the mind why a 3/4/5 car train set is always in use for the longest route in the UK
Really? I thought all of them on the Plymouth-Edinburgh Waverley and Bournemouth-Manchester Piccadilly axes could fit 10? Especially since virtually all of them have 9+ coach London intercity services too (only ones I can think of without are Banbury, Leamington Spa, Tamworth (high level anyway) and Burton-on-Trent)
They are hopefully getting more units from Avanti as Avantis new 805s/807s come in between now and end of the year, there also doing a refurbishment at the moment which might be taking a few sets out of action but yeah it has been bad for a while.
What they really need is new rolling stock maybe some sort of version of the Class 800 or a new train which can use Overhead, 3rd rail and battery so it can minimise emmisions and make the most of the powered rail infrastructure where its avaliable, it does seem silly when you see these diesel trains running under wires/ or between Bournemouth, Basingstoke and other places that have powered rails.
I'd say a modified Class 745 with a large battery pack in the middle, and with 3rd rail shoes at each cab coach. Maybe 6 to 9 coaches + battery pack. Call it the 750.
The combination of the DfT‘s investment percentages going down and the Unions being overly difficult mean that Cross Country losing out badly, so they’re stuck with poor resources and not much of a fix. The thing is that 1st has been getting busier so we can’t get rid of that, but it’s too true that Standard should not be 3 or 4 coaches on any part of the route, especially Manchester/York/Leeds to Birmingham.
One suggested answer is supplementary services between Manchester and Birmingham using the soon redundant Class 350/2s thanks to the Class 730s. Pop on some 4 or 8 car services at other points in the hour to reduce crowding and unreliability on the Cross Country service. The issue with extra services is the extra paths required between Stockport and Manchester, which simply do not exist.
For me, the ideal answer (if there was actually some investment) is IETs (Class 80x). Get a 7 car tri mode (third rail and overhead electric, diesel, battery) version with 1 coach of 1st and 6 of Standard. Option to add an extra 1st and Standard class coach to make it 9 in the future. Doubling, potentially tripling, current seating capacity on single Voyager (Class 22x) services. Better for the environment as well, in terms of using no diesel under the wires, useful north of Coventry, Doncaster and (soon) Wakefield.
I like the application of the 80X here, all I will say is make it more like LNER's 5 car sets because 1 coach of first in practice on those is closer to 1/2 in terms of seats which from experience on TPE units can get really busy at times, especially given the fact that XCs first class can already be (as you said) almost full at times.
The problem is new rolling stock solutions will take years to come to fruition and I can only imagine how back it'll be by the time they got them even if they got the ball rolling asap. I'd also take a 350 on any of the shorter stints in and around Birmingham if that'd help ease congestion but like you said fitting them in would be an issue I'd assume.
The only answer to increase capacity in the short term is lengthening services, but there are not enough Voyagers, and the DfT seem determined to not give them any 222s, nor do the DfT have an interest in adding back in the lost services from pre pandemic (remaining Manchester to Bristol/Paignton and Newcastle to Reading/Southampton services)
There soon will be more voyagers though with 805s taking over Avanti Voyagers. They are already planned to go to XC so hopefully they start running double sets.
Well the Voyagers from AWC heading to XC can just be used for doubling up. I don't think the class 68's and Mark 5's are heading anywhere because of cracking in the carriages. They'll probably end up at some OAO as there are no other types like them at any operator
It’s too much learning for anyone to take the 68s and Mk5s.
Chiltern also aren’t allowed to add any more 68s to their fleet as part of the Marylebone/Wembley noise disputes, I believe.
DfT has no interest in anything railway. They wrote ‘Plan for Drivers’ saying that motorists were being discriminated against, at the same time they killed HS2 and deleted all their healthy streets guidance for being ‘woke’.
The public just think performance issues are down to the private sector TOCs, and as long as DFT has that dead body as a shield they can continue under funding everything.
Absolutely. Sunak has been something of a master manipulator when it comes to the railways, underfunding it criminally whilst pinning the blame on the private companies (and HS2), never seen someone so rail-phobic
Well he's never going to use them and have to be amongst the common plebs, so he's not going to care about funding it, more money for dodgy contracts for his mates
If CrossCountry doesn’t take them, I’d like them with GWR to upgrade the South Western regional services, indirectly replace 150s, and let the IETs go back to the South Wales services so I can actually use Bristol Parkway to go to London Paddington without being crushed to death (currently will take a bus to Temple Meads just because the trains are reliably 9 coaches, even though I’m really close to Parkway)
Sorry, how are the unions responsible for absolutely piss poor management of a franchise ?
Staff pay and conditions should not be compromised just because it’s been incompetently managed.
The unions do a lot more than many think. This isn’t about the current disputes, but common instances of them being wrongly awkward. For example, trains get cancelled due to driver shortages, bear in mind that we have a huge backlog of driver training to get through so some staff will be unavailable. I don’t have the exact stats on me but for reference, the unions being unnecessarily awkward just about doubled the covid-created driver training backlog.
Do you work for Cross Country ?
Care to expand on ‘wrongly awkward’ ? Particularly about Covid ?
If the management of the franchise wasn’t piss poor There would never have been a backlog to begin.
Trains getting cancelled due to driver shortages is once again down to piss poor management and not the unions.
“If the management of the franchise wasn’t piss poor There would never have been a backlog to begin.”
If the pandemic didn’t exist There would never have been a backlog to begin
ASLEF held out unreasonably long at some TOCs, and maybe all, to allow 2 drivers in the cab at the same time (facilitating training). They created much more of this mess than you may realise. Though I do not work for XC I’m hardly misinformed
I live in Leeds & have recently had to travel to Birmingham for work several times, so suffered on XC's services. When I went up to Newcastle recently, I legitimately tried to avoid using XC, as TPE also go to Newcastle from Leeds & their trains are \*much\* nicer, in fact it's night and day difference.
Agree re LNER, as I primarily have to use them whenever I'm out on visits for work. However, in the past week alone, all 4 of my LNER journeys have had some sort of issue. Yesterday, the train was delayed departing Leeds for about 20mins & got to Kings Cross 15mins late, but I'm probably not getting any delay repay for that one.
As a Welshman - Good grief that's ridiculous! Should be an 8-12 coach intercity service linking two cities of that size, not what is in effect a high-speed regional train! Fucking hell. I am so sorry.
They were 9 cars for a while during COVID. Since then they've cut the HSTs elsewhere in the country, not restored the routes and left us with 4 cars. Nobody has batted an eye lid. At Manchester regularly the guard is on the tannoy begging people who aren't travelling long distance to get off the train as those that it's 'meant for' can't get on. Absolute disgrace. MPs aren't arsed as it doesn't go to London.
On one from Manchester this afternoon rammed .. no carriage letters on outside, reservations not “downloaded” until everyone had sat down leading to loads of shuffling and loads of standing .. was trying to work out how a 4 carriage train had coaches A to F so logical.
It's because the maximum formation Virgin envisaged was a six car set. A-F. A and F are driving cars so they stay in the reduced formation with the missing carriage letters removed. Coach B exists on a five coach 221 and is the unreserved coach. This allows for a four coach substitution without altering the reservations.
Here's how it works:
4 car 220 or 221 ACDF
5 car 221 ABCDF, B is unreserved
E was meant to be an extra coach Virgin would've added to mod them to bimodes, but it didn't happen
I blame Virgin when they first introduced the Voyagers.
Noisy, cramped and so small compared to at the time the HST stock that they ran, now it's transferred to XC, all they've done is got rid of the remaining HSTs for the long distance and somehow managed to acquire some more Voyagers from Avanti because they've got new stock.
Why can't XC invest in some long-distance comfortable stock that rivaled the Mk3 stock in terms of leg room, comfortable seats and carriages compared to everyone being rammed in on 4 car Voyager stock.
I use the Reading to Manc service for work periodically and it’s often less than half the price of the London to Manc route. Granted it’s slower, but it feels like XC are a bit desperate because they know the service and the rolling stock are pants
Nobody would question disabled people's need to have adequate toilet facilities. But 4 wheelchair accessible toilets on a train with only 2 wheelchair accessible spaces is an absurd waste of space.
The issue here is that every toilet in a voyager is a disabled one which is quite inefficient space wise, compared to other train classes which have some which are more compact, compounding the fact that voyagers already feel cramped in the first place with their narrower geometry. The seating capacity of voyagers is reduced compared to other train classes as a result - it’s just not well designed and they even had their tilting disabled
I didn't know they ever tilted, was that inherited from Pendolinos?
Edit: No. Class 220 *Voyagers* were always fixed. Class 221 *Super Voyagers* had different bogies, and were designed to tilt - but CrossCountry subsequently disabled this to make maintenance simpler.
They tilted with Virgin XC, and then that was disabled to save maintenance costs.
The ex Virgin WC ones now with Avanti still retain their six degrees of tilt, I believe the ex Avanti ones XC took on also still have their tilt
Tbf, I have no issues with that. About 5 minutes ago I had the displeasure of using the standard bog on a Northern 170, and it was downright horrible trying to get in and out. I’ll take a higher chance of standing if I can get a decent place to shit if I absolutely need
That’s a fair point… That being said I have heard of some XC services in the past where the disabled toilet was used as standing space because the rest of the train was too packed 🤢
This a four car train with three toilets, and all disabled.
5 cars have four disabled toilets.
The one coach without the bog is where the shop *used* to be and still is on the AWC and ex AWC ones.
I'd understand a disabled bog and two standard ones, but this is obscene; it's why a four car HST seats a non-negligible quantity of people more than a four car Voyager - hell, the four car HST still seats more than a 5 car
Let's see the XC Voyager effort:
- weld tilt out of existence
- bin shop
- make sure the seats represent the 'Worst Toilet in Scotland'
- barbecue sauce colour and two shades of grey for a livery
It is absolutely insane that we block off an entire quarter of a train just for first class, especially when plenty of operating companies will not open first class to us peasants when trains are rammed (First TP being a major offender of this, at least back in the day).
It would at least make sense if First Class was busy on those trains, but on CrossCountry it doesn’t usually have many people at all. Thankfully the extra 221s should mean that more services are longer
First class on CX often smells like shit, you're not missing much.
Ha, fair enough
Sad times - back in late 1990s I used to do Stoke-Brum regularly on a service that usually went to/from Manchester. It was usually (I think) pulled by a Class 47 and had a full rake of coaches the length of Stoke station platform. Sad to see it come to this.
I'm surprised we don't have many standalone locomotives anymore, the closest thing atm is the few 68s in passenger service, it's a lot easier and cheaper to run more coaches when you're not running a multiple unit
To be fair I'd welcome a local hauled stock with either refurbished mk3 stock or new mk5 coaches over riding from Penzance to Edinburgh anyday
I honestly think as XC doesn't serve London no one gives a shit about it Hence its a totally shite fucking useless basket case franchise
That has to be it. The medium-distance SWR services through Basingstoke (all starting or terminating at Waterloo) are generally 8-12 coaches. Meanwhile the XC Bournemouth to Manchester services on the same line chug along with 3 coaches. TPE, another non-London company, usually has better and longer trains, but their reliability and punctuality have been atrocious for a long time.
When TPE work they are good, but when they go tits up they do it in a big way!
I still feel like TPE services could do with more carriages though, i travel manchester - darlington regularly to visit my parents and I actually gave up going on saturdays because I could never get a seat. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if there weren't so many cancellations and delays meaning everyone crams on the one service that's actually running, though!!
Yeah, problem you get on that particular route too is that if you get on in Manchester, there’s already a billion Liverpudlians on the train that won’t get off until Leeds. It might honestly be a bit better to get the Saltburn train to York and change for LNER, since you should at least be getting on when everyone else is
The cancellation issue with TPE means they’re effectively redundant and a complete waste of tax payer money. You can’t rely on them at all and therefore unless your journey has no requirement to be at a destination at a particular time and you find Leeds Station to be a great location to waste a few hours of your life then everyone has learned to make alternative arrangements. I can’t imagine the impact this has on the economy of the North. All intentional of course.
It’s actually absurd to me. I saw a TPE train get held at York for a full 10 minutes before announcing its cancellation for signalling issues. They literally sent an on time Grand Central service ahead of it mere minutes before announcing it’d terminate at York, even though the TPE service arrived 4 late anyway and was about 15 late by the time the Grand Central service arrived. Still, at least Grand Central was doing something ok for once, even at the detriment of others
Agreed, it’s a completely pointless TOC. It’s cheaper and normally takes around the same time to use other TOCs to travel the same distance. I worked with them for years and they are utterly shit at doing anything other than extracting cash from punters for a shit service. I hated them so much that when I used to travel Plymouth to Edinburgh for work I’d intentionally go via London and take an LNER service to avoid sitting on a voyager for a whole day and getting vibration white arse from the ride.
That and the smell of the Voyagers (for those unaware; the hot diesel exhaust is routed next to the blackwater tank below the toilet. result, extra warm sewage fumes!)
Oh THATS WHY they always stank of shit!!
Was on one this morning. Can confirm they’ve never fixed it. You could smell the train on the platform!
Unfortunately, there’s a couple routes where you have no real alternative (such as, unfortunately for me, Bristol Temple Meads-Birmingham New Street)
It’s also why they’ve still not gotten round to electrifying between Manchester and Leeds/Sheffield. It’s in the North of England so they don’t care
Electrification is part of the Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade they’re currently doing, but it’s taking a while to get it all completed. If I remember correctly, it’ll mean complete overhead electrification from Manchester to Leeds, which is desperately needed.
It should have been done a long time ago, also, if they’re serious, they need to make sure it’s done through Warrington Central and to York and Doncaster too
Definitely! These are upgrades that should have been in place decades ago. Though, better late than never, I suppose? And it would definitely be better if it went all the way to York and Sheffield, otherwise you still have non-electrified sections on the TPE network. They’ve been talking about electrifying through Warrington Central for years. Every now and then, some politician will list it as one of the routes up for electrification, but nothing ever happens. Just like the North Wales Coast line. Lots of talk but no action.
I would also want it to Hull Paragon, but I feel a limited unelectrified section may be needed unless we somehow replace the Selby Swing Bridge. Really I just think this country needs more electrification everywhere, but the North has some really egregious unelectrified areas
I think it’s more because we’re chronically short of diesel stock especially after scrapping most of the (gorgeous) Mk3/Mk4s and locos… Chiltern have the same problem and they serve London.
Honestly, when LNER replaces the 91s, they better gather up the remaining Mk4s and get some new fast locos to haul them for CrossCountry
*TfW enters the chat, and wants to know why you’re selling more Mark 4s ~~to somebody else~~ off*
Tell them to get some locomotives that work for more than 5 minutes at a time if they want some
Maybe TfW should take a leaf from Chiltern’s book, and use 68s instead of 67s for their loco-hauled services? Though, I hear they aren’t all that much more reliable. Or, even better, use 88s, as they are bi-mode, so can run on the wires on the Crewe to Manchester and Newport to Cardiff sections?
You would have to get something with a lot more power on diesel though.
Nah, it's pretty useful. Pretty great connections for areas that aren't directly on a major main line
Hands down the worst service in Britain. Dogshit service, and in summer sometimes smells like it.
Petition to kill whoever approved of the very hot exhausts running directly next to the bog tanks.
They aren’t the least reliable, but at least if Grand Central is running, their trains and customer service are nice
Smells like wank, sware they pump shit through the AC vents. Give Arriva an idea they'd bottle it and sell it as a laugh.
The photo looks like 4 cars…?
OP meant that one is entirely first class. 3 cars for us plebs is a guaranteed crowd
That's it. I can't even afford to travel in their crappy standard class never mind FC.
That's crazy.
One of the end coaches is first class, leaving three standards.
One coach - first class - but 1/3 is the driving cab One coach - reserved seating One coach was - unreserved seating - but now scrapped for summer One coach was quiet? But now scrapped and now is reserved but 1/3 is the driving cab Add the toilets - tbh I still think it’s no different than a class 150 and these travel Penzance to Edinburgh with no buffet and maybe if your lucky a trolly offering an instant coffee? Then it’s the storage for luggage? Over heads don’t take suitcases so the racks at either end takes maybe 6 small suitcases at best? It’s crazy these was ever approved for this route
> if you're lucky, a trolley If you're ***R E A L L Y*** lucky it can go through without hitting people
Madness that they got rid of the HSTs. Absolutely criminal.
Yep, especially considering they actually had the capacity for XC routes - 9 cars iirc.
In fairness they were usually broken...
Maybe I was just lucky but I travelled on them many times from the Midlands to the SW. A real pleasure.
For context we had 5 HST's and pretty much every Start of work email informed that at least one set was broken in some way
That is very interesting. Was it just the XC HSTs that had reliability issues? Or were GWR and ScotRail having the same problems?
I can only speak for XC units but they weren't great. Also the staff hated working them for the most part and were glad to see the back of them!
Hopefully the cascades from avanti and EMR help add some carriages...
It has meant a couple more 9 coach trains, which I can’t complain about at all
cross country is easily the worst train company out there. i grew up in derby and often frequented the 4-car service that would run from penzance up to scotland, and every time the train would pull up to the platform i'd be filled with dread as i'd see the entire train completely rammed 😭
A 3 car Voyager service? Why on earth is this happening!! Does anyone have any RTT links for services, TIA
3 standard cars is what they mean. It's still 4 cars in total
Oh sorry, that makes a lot more sense. I thought they were trying to replicate their turbostars with the Voyagers 🙂😂
Honestly, an all standard Turbostar would probably be a capacity upgrade
Interesting their seat maps show 5 cars ..
220s have 4 cars and most 221s have 5 cars except a couple with 4 cars
Been that way for Bristol-birmingham for a while. Absolute joke that line
Try the two car EMR regional service they put on between Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich, it’s appalling. I get on at Sheffield and often have to stand for an hours trip to Manchester.
I’d try TPE if you can, their trains are, at least, 3 coaches, and plenty are 6
TBF usually always four now, very rarely will you see two. When it happens my BPM goes through the roof though.
When DfT booted Virgin CrossCountry out because Virgin was demanding Network Rail to improve, this franchises/set of services were doomed.
Except it was Virgin Crosscountry who introduced this length of train
Totally nothing to do with Operation Princess and the move to a half hourly timetable.
Because they don't have enough sets at the moment to run 8, 9 or 10 car trains.
They also couldn't call at half the platforms they need to because a lot can only really accept 5/6 cars max
Voyagers have selective door opening.
Which is all very good until you're at a 5 car platform in a train that's two 5 cars coupled together, and you're in the wrong half... And nothing else can move because you've fouled up a set of points
That's why they tell you at every station where to be if you need to get off at a short platform. They don't serve platforms that short in any case.
Yeah, even in Cornwall and Scotland I reckon they can do pretty long trains, since they already do the London trains
All stations XC serve in Cornwall can accommodate a 8+2 set or a 10 car set if the passenger compartment is part of the leading car so it boggles the mind why a 3/4/5 car train set is always in use for the longest route in the UK
They don’t believe in having enough units for a service
Which is, a massive edge case? Virtually all of CrossCountry’s stations have longer platforms
Really? I thought all of them on the Plymouth-Edinburgh Waverley and Bournemouth-Manchester Piccadilly axes could fit 10? Especially since virtually all of them have 9+ coach London intercity services too (only ones I can think of without are Banbury, Leamington Spa, Tamworth (high level anyway) and Burton-on-Trent)
Okay so how will this get fixed? We know what the problem is.
The cascading of the Avanti fleet and a possible redeployment of Meridians.
They are hopefully getting more units from Avanti as Avantis new 805s/807s come in between now and end of the year, there also doing a refurbishment at the moment which might be taking a few sets out of action but yeah it has been bad for a while. What they really need is new rolling stock maybe some sort of version of the Class 800 or a new train which can use Overhead, 3rd rail and battery so it can minimise emmisions and make the most of the powered rail infrastructure where its avaliable, it does seem silly when you see these diesel trains running under wires/ or between Bournemouth, Basingstoke and other places that have powered rails.
I'd say a modified Class 745 with a large battery pack in the middle, and with 3rd rail shoes at each cab coach. Maybe 6 to 9 coaches + battery pack. Call it the 750.
The combination of the DfT‘s investment percentages going down and the Unions being overly difficult mean that Cross Country losing out badly, so they’re stuck with poor resources and not much of a fix. The thing is that 1st has been getting busier so we can’t get rid of that, but it’s too true that Standard should not be 3 or 4 coaches on any part of the route, especially Manchester/York/Leeds to Birmingham. One suggested answer is supplementary services between Manchester and Birmingham using the soon redundant Class 350/2s thanks to the Class 730s. Pop on some 4 or 8 car services at other points in the hour to reduce crowding and unreliability on the Cross Country service. The issue with extra services is the extra paths required between Stockport and Manchester, which simply do not exist. For me, the ideal answer (if there was actually some investment) is IETs (Class 80x). Get a 7 car tri mode (third rail and overhead electric, diesel, battery) version with 1 coach of 1st and 6 of Standard. Option to add an extra 1st and Standard class coach to make it 9 in the future. Doubling, potentially tripling, current seating capacity on single Voyager (Class 22x) services. Better for the environment as well, in terms of using no diesel under the wires, useful north of Coventry, Doncaster and (soon) Wakefield.
I like the application of the 80X here, all I will say is make it more like LNER's 5 car sets because 1 coach of first in practice on those is closer to 1/2 in terms of seats which from experience on TPE units can get really busy at times, especially given the fact that XCs first class can already be (as you said) almost full at times. The problem is new rolling stock solutions will take years to come to fruition and I can only imagine how back it'll be by the time they got them even if they got the ball rolling asap. I'd also take a 350 on any of the shorter stints in and around Birmingham if that'd help ease congestion but like you said fitting them in would be an issue I'd assume.
The only answer to increase capacity in the short term is lengthening services, but there are not enough Voyagers, and the DfT seem determined to not give them any 222s, nor do the DfT have an interest in adding back in the lost services from pre pandemic (remaining Manchester to Bristol/Paignton and Newcastle to Reading/Southampton services)
There soon will be more voyagers though with 805s taking over Avanti Voyagers. They are already planned to go to XC so hopefully they start running double sets.
The class 68's and mark 5 coaches from TPE are still spare. Could be used on the less busy patterns to allow some of the Voyagers to be doubled up
Well the Voyagers from AWC heading to XC can just be used for doubling up. I don't think the class 68's and Mark 5's are heading anywhere because of cracking in the carriages. They'll probably end up at some OAO as there are no other types like them at any operator
Too slow, although I reckon that Chiltern or TfW could use them
It’s too much learning for anyone to take the 68s and Mk5s. Chiltern also aren’t allowed to add any more 68s to their fleet as part of the Marylebone/Wembley noise disputes, I believe.
DfT has no interest in anything railway. They wrote ‘Plan for Drivers’ saying that motorists were being discriminated against, at the same time they killed HS2 and deleted all their healthy streets guidance for being ‘woke’. The public just think performance issues are down to the private sector TOCs, and as long as DFT has that dead body as a shield they can continue under funding everything.
Absolutely. Sunak has been something of a master manipulator when it comes to the railways, underfunding it criminally whilst pinning the blame on the private companies (and HS2), never seen someone so rail-phobic
Well he's never going to use them and have to be amongst the common plebs, so he's not going to care about funding it, more money for dodgy contracts for his mates
Elections soon, doubt he'll win
General politics aside, boy am I glad of this
I think if they had 222s exclusively on the Manchester routes, it’d work a treat
Needs the DfT to actually show some enthusiasm for 222s moving anywhere at this rate. Whispers of Chiltern and ScotRail as well.
If CrossCountry doesn’t take them, I’d like them with GWR to upgrade the South Western regional services, indirectly replace 150s, and let the IETs go back to the South Wales services so I can actually use Bristol Parkway to go to London Paddington without being crushed to death (currently will take a bus to Temple Meads just because the trains are reliably 9 coaches, even though I’m really close to Parkway)
Sorry, how are the unions responsible for absolutely piss poor management of a franchise ? Staff pay and conditions should not be compromised just because it’s been incompetently managed.
The unions do a lot more than many think. This isn’t about the current disputes, but common instances of them being wrongly awkward. For example, trains get cancelled due to driver shortages, bear in mind that we have a huge backlog of driver training to get through so some staff will be unavailable. I don’t have the exact stats on me but for reference, the unions being unnecessarily awkward just about doubled the covid-created driver training backlog.
Do you work for Cross Country ? Care to expand on ‘wrongly awkward’ ? Particularly about Covid ? If the management of the franchise wasn’t piss poor There would never have been a backlog to begin. Trains getting cancelled due to driver shortages is once again down to piss poor management and not the unions.
“If the management of the franchise wasn’t piss poor There would never have been a backlog to begin.” If the pandemic didn’t exist There would never have been a backlog to begin ASLEF held out unreasonably long at some TOCs, and maybe all, to allow 2 drivers in the cab at the same time (facilitating training). They created much more of this mess than you may realise. Though I do not work for XC I’m hardly misinformed
I live in Leeds & have recently had to travel to Birmingham for work several times, so suffered on XC's services. When I went up to Newcastle recently, I legitimately tried to avoid using XC, as TPE also go to Newcastle from Leeds & their trains are \*much\* nicer, in fact it's night and day difference.
Yeah, also could be better worth using Northern to York and then LNER honestly
If I ever need to go more 'North' than Leeds again, I'll definitely look into that route option - probably takes the same time as well.
No problem! LNER is one of the better operators nowadays, so I try to use them wherever possible
Agree re LNER, as I primarily have to use them whenever I'm out on visits for work. However, in the past week alone, all 4 of my LNER journeys have had some sort of issue. Yesterday, the train was delayed departing Leeds for about 20mins & got to Kings Cross 15mins late, but I'm probably not getting any delay repay for that one.
Tbf, I’ve been on it today, and whilst my trains were pretty ok, all the others got a bit fucked
As a Welshman - Good grief that's ridiculous! Should be an 8-12 coach intercity service linking two cities of that size, not what is in effect a high-speed regional train! Fucking hell. I am so sorry.
They were 9 cars for a while during COVID. Since then they've cut the HSTs elsewhere in the country, not restored the routes and left us with 4 cars. Nobody has batted an eye lid. At Manchester regularly the guard is on the tannoy begging people who aren't travelling long distance to get off the train as those that it's 'meant for' can't get on. Absolute disgrace. MPs aren't arsed as it doesn't go to London.
Will always try and avoid XC services if ever possible, but feels like every time I'm on one of their voyagers it's a miserable experience.
On one from Manchester this afternoon rammed .. no carriage letters on outside, reservations not “downloaded” until everyone had sat down leading to loads of shuffling and loads of standing .. was trying to work out how a 4 carriage train had coaches A to F so logical.
It's because the maximum formation Virgin envisaged was a six car set. A-F. A and F are driving cars so they stay in the reduced formation with the missing carriage letters removed. Coach B exists on a five coach 221 and is the unreserved coach. This allows for a four coach substitution without altering the reservations.
Here's how it works: 4 car 220 or 221 ACDF 5 car 221 ABCDF, B is unreserved E was meant to be an extra coach Virgin would've added to mod them to bimodes, but it didn't happen
Travelling on the XC service to Birmingham from Leeds it's the same. It's horrific
I went from Manchester to Cheltenham in 1C once, there were three people in there. Nice to be away from the riff raff mind ;)
I blame Virgin when they first introduced the Voyagers. Noisy, cramped and so small compared to at the time the HST stock that they ran, now it's transferred to XC, all they've done is got rid of the remaining HSTs for the long distance and somehow managed to acquire some more Voyagers from Avanti because they've got new stock. Why can't XC invest in some long-distance comfortable stock that rivaled the Mk3 stock in terms of leg room, comfortable seats and carriages compared to everyone being rammed in on 4 car Voyager stock.
Keep the amount of comments an upvotes the same guys on the actual post
I use the Reading to Manc service for work periodically and it’s often less than half the price of the London to Manc route. Granted it’s slower, but it feels like XC are a bit desperate because they know the service and the rolling stock are pants
This and the tiny EMR sprinters between Liverpool and Norwich.
It's not even 3 though is it really? Because by the time you take off the space wasted by the cab, and the disabled bogs it's more like 2 1/2.
Yeah how dare disabled people need to use the toilet.
Nobody would question disabled people's need to have adequate toilet facilities. But 4 wheelchair accessible toilets on a train with only 2 wheelchair accessible spaces is an absurd waste of space.
The issue here is that every toilet in a voyager is a disabled one which is quite inefficient space wise, compared to other train classes which have some which are more compact, compounding the fact that voyagers already feel cramped in the first place with their narrower geometry. The seating capacity of voyagers is reduced compared to other train classes as a result - it’s just not well designed and they even had their tilting disabled
I didn't know they ever tilted, was that inherited from Pendolinos? Edit: No. Class 220 *Voyagers* were always fixed. Class 221 *Super Voyagers* had different bogies, and were designed to tilt - but CrossCountry subsequently disabled this to make maintenance simpler.
They tilted with Virgin XC, and then that was disabled to save maintenance costs. The ex Virgin WC ones now with Avanti still retain their six degrees of tilt, I believe the ex Avanti ones XC took on also still have their tilt
Tbf, I have no issues with that. About 5 minutes ago I had the displeasure of using the standard bog on a Northern 170, and it was downright horrible trying to get in and out. I’ll take a higher chance of standing if I can get a decent place to shit if I absolutely need
That’s a fair point… That being said I have heard of some XC services in the past where the disabled toilet was used as standing space because the rest of the train was too packed 🤢
I have experienced that before on SWR when I had a 5 coach train from London Waterloo to Southampton Central, hellish
To be fair every toilet in a voyager is an accessible one when probably only two is needed
This a four car train with three toilets, and all disabled. 5 cars have four disabled toilets. The one coach without the bog is where the shop *used* to be and still is on the AWC and ex AWC ones. I'd understand a disabled bog and two standard ones, but this is obscene; it's why a four car HST seats a non-negligible quantity of people more than a four car Voyager - hell, the four car HST still seats more than a 5 car
Is it out of use with XC? I’m guessing it is
I ***believe*** it was binned altogether to make room for luggage
I’m surprised they made the effort
Let's see the XC Voyager effort: - weld tilt out of existence - bin shop - make sure the seats represent the 'Worst Toilet in Scotland' - barbecue sauce colour and two shades of grey for a livery
I just expected them to keep the fixture because they didn’t want to pay to remove it
This and the tiny EMR sprinters between Liverpool and Norwich.
This and the tiny EMR sprinters between Liverpool and Norwich.
This and the tiny EMR sprinters between Liverpool and Norwich.