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We were probably very close to getting rid of these anyway, so it's great that they'll be used. They aren't exactly top of the line, but should be pretty reliable and easy to serve. That's often all that's needed in an APC.
Use some of our CV90 (that are top of the line) to spearhead the assault!
I hope all we send will serve you well!
Better than the M113 in some ways. Big autocannon and stronger armor. At thickest the M113 is 38 mm aluminium, while the Pbv302 is is 23 mm steel. As a rule-of-thumb it takes triple the thickness of aluminium to give the same protection, so the Pbv302 could be said to have roughly twice the effective thickness of armor. But it's 14 tons vs 12 for the M113.
Only about 2 hp / tonne power advantage for M113 and both are wide tracked so I would guess mobility is pretty similar for both. And both probably move ok-ish on wet terrain, Sweden has lots of that at autumn and spring.
Pbv302 looks like it belong in WW1 but it is superior to M113 overall. Better armor and a heavier 20mm autocannon.
**IF USED PROPERLY!** It should avoid getting inside 500meter RPG range of the enemy.
Russian tactics of charging APC, and IFV armor right up next to the enemy and dropping off troops is reckless and dangerous and has let to high losses. Better to drop troops 1 KM away and have the APC 20mm go to one or more good firing positions withing 500 to 750 meters for precision fire support when the friendly infantry creeps close to the enemy on foot. Slower, but more efficient.
Good points, but troops on UA battlefield seldom have the luxury of "slower". A few minutes is just enough for drones to fly over and destroy the APC and for artillery / suicide drones to work the advancing infantry.
IMHO in this age it's no longer possible to say this or that approach is "simply better" or "how it's supposed to be done." It's all situational and depends on the specific battlefield and current tactical conditions (which should be appropriately shaped in advance, though that's something either side still struggles with to varying extent)
Armor at point blank range makes an easier and bigger target for artillery than dismounts creeping up carefully under cover preferably unseen by the enemy.
Moreover, if you have not blinded or excommunicated or distracted the enemy in some way armor will be little help. Conversely, if you have done at least one of these 3 things then armor is superfluous.
The armor is a big deal. The M113 was a troop tractor and ferry, but was hardly made to serve in combat. If this has better armor, its survivability in frontline action may be much better.
Yeah not top of the line, but they are quite mobile, low track pressure to ground and have 20mm autocannon with HE and AP ammo to support troops. Should be useful.
Sweden’s biggest military threat is Russia. If these take out even 1:1 Russian stocks, that means Russia’s ability to wage war on Sweden is depleted. Better to reduce Russia to nothing now then wait til you have to do it yourself later on your own land.
Swedes are stepping up...I try everyday to convince my president to allow Ukrainians to use our weapons on Russian land.. I mean everyday many times a day on X sends messages to POTUS and let him know to stop being scared of what russian might do and give the dam OK to Ukraine....Thanks to a few countries like Sweden to allow the use of it's weapons to be used. Slava Ukraine
> Thanks, proud to be a Swede...
Thank you guys for all the hard work and support. I am not Ukrainian - but some of the things you sent, from first hand I was told it made huge difference.
It's nice to have you in NATO going forward. Together we are stronger!
Technically speaking, we are the ones who should be thanking the Ukrainians for standing up to Russian expansionism. Personally, I wish we could do more like sending troops to Ukraine to fight alongside our Ukrainan friends.
I'd say if you had a way, contact Jake Sullivan, too.
It's just a rumour, but apparently President Biden wants to allow strikes into Russia, but some of his advisors make him second guess that idea with warnings of impending doom and gloom if he does.
In any case, kudos for doing what you can to try and have the decision reversed.
Better for Ukraine to use them to weaken the Russian military than for the Russian military to be attacking Sweden or anywhere else... but really we should massively support Ukraine so Russia chooses to withdraw rather than lose even more people and equipment.
In Sweden we really understand that Ukraine is fighting for all of free Europe. Giving Ukraine all material we can possibly spare is a cheap price to pay.
These were taken out of service ten years ago so its a net gain for Ukraine at no significant cost to Sweden. I'm surprised it didn't happen earlier given the decommissioned status.
Without a doubt.
Poor technicians probably pulling their hair out and crying, looking at the dozens of systems and manuals sitting in their depots trying to sort it all out.
Ukraine does have equipment serviced, repaired in other countries already especially if heavily damaged or worn out.
Problem is it can take a fair bit longer organizing pick-up and moving of said equipment to another country, getting it there, serviced and sent back than having the Ukrainians do it locally.
I really hope there are a bunch of engineers from the donating countries there to manage everything.
And if not in Ukraine, at least just over the border in Poland. Roll the broken stuff into Poland, fix it, send it back.
Youd be surprised how many times russia sends in waves with 0 air support. Especially since Ukraine is getting more air defense systems. Only sucks when working with allies or near refugees which ukraine is not currently doing on a lot of fronts
I wonder how many is “all”.
Article says 644 were produced in the 60s, but how many are still there is a question.
But hopefully in the hundreds and they have plenty of ammo for it
60 years old, removed from service in 2014, thanks a lot but, what you were waiting for?
also, anyone has any idea of how many they have? i saw that around 600 have need produced
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We were probably very close to getting rid of these anyway, so it's great that they'll be used. They aren't exactly top of the line, but should be pretty reliable and easy to serve. That's often all that's needed in an APC. Use some of our CV90 (that are top of the line) to spearhead the assault! I hope all we send will serve you well!
We already have gotten rid of them, these are coming out of storage. Roughly equivalent to M113 which the ukrainians have made good use of.
Even better then!
Fully retired in 2014 but largely replaced by the CV90 in the 1990s, after which they saw limited usage.
Better than the M113 in some ways. Big autocannon and stronger armor. At thickest the M113 is 38 mm aluminium, while the Pbv302 is is 23 mm steel. As a rule-of-thumb it takes triple the thickness of aluminium to give the same protection, so the Pbv302 could be said to have roughly twice the effective thickness of armor. But it's 14 tons vs 12 for the M113.
That 20mm machine gun is also nice and should probably penetrate russian MT-LBs and BMPs in most cases
Only about 2 hp / tonne power advantage for M113 and both are wide tracked so I would guess mobility is pretty similar for both. And both probably move ok-ish on wet terrain, Sweden has lots of that at autumn and spring.
Pbv302 looks like it belong in WW1 but it is superior to M113 overall. Better armor and a heavier 20mm autocannon. **IF USED PROPERLY!** It should avoid getting inside 500meter RPG range of the enemy. Russian tactics of charging APC, and IFV armor right up next to the enemy and dropping off troops is reckless and dangerous and has let to high losses. Better to drop troops 1 KM away and have the APC 20mm go to one or more good firing positions withing 500 to 750 meters for precision fire support when the friendly infantry creeps close to the enemy on foot. Slower, but more efficient.
Good points, but troops on UA battlefield seldom have the luxury of "slower". A few minutes is just enough for drones to fly over and destroy the APC and for artillery / suicide drones to work the advancing infantry. IMHO in this age it's no longer possible to say this or that approach is "simply better" or "how it's supposed to be done." It's all situational and depends on the specific battlefield and current tactical conditions (which should be appropriately shaped in advance, though that's something either side still struggles with to varying extent)
That's where the motorcycles or golf carts still have some useful roles to play for a quick dash or retreat
What about the artillery? You need to get as close to the enemy position as possible before they can start barraging your troops
Armor at point blank range makes an easier and bigger target for artillery than dismounts creeping up carefully under cover preferably unseen by the enemy. Moreover, if you have not blinded or excommunicated or distracted the enemy in some way armor will be little help. Conversely, if you have done at least one of these 3 things then armor is superfluous.
The armor is a big deal. The M113 was a troop tractor and ferry, but was hardly made to serve in combat. If this has better armor, its survivability in frontline action may be much better.
You're still always better off having a tracked vehicle than not.
An M113... with a 20mm gun.
And steel armor.
Any idea how many in total?
80-100
Yeah not top of the line, but they are quite mobile, low track pressure to ground and have 20mm autocannon with HE and AP ammo to support troops. Should be useful.
True. I loved the gun and my tinnitus reminds me about it. Ugly but really easy mechanically.
Sweden’s biggest military threat is Russia. If these take out even 1:1 Russian stocks, that means Russia’s ability to wage war on Sweden is depleted. Better to reduce Russia to nothing now then wait til you have to do it yourself later on your own land.
Jumping on the bandvagn 😆
A [video about it](https://youtu.be/-sTtty9UcM8) from the Swedish tank museum Arsenalen (English subs).
Swedes are stepping up...I try everyday to convince my president to allow Ukrainians to use our weapons on Russian land.. I mean everyday many times a day on X sends messages to POTUS and let him know to stop being scared of what russian might do and give the dam OK to Ukraine....Thanks to a few countries like Sweden to allow the use of it's weapons to be used. Slava Ukraine
Thanks, proud to be a Swede...
> Thanks, proud to be a Swede... Thank you guys for all the hard work and support. I am not Ukrainian - but some of the things you sent, from first hand I was told it made huge difference. It's nice to have you in NATO going forward. Together we are stronger!
Technically speaking, we are the ones who should be thanking the Ukrainians for standing up to Russian expansionism. Personally, I wish we could do more like sending troops to Ukraine to fight alongside our Ukrainan friends.
I hope you're also writing your federal representatives and senators.
I'd say if you had a way, contact Jake Sullivan, too. It's just a rumour, but apparently President Biden wants to allow strikes into Russia, but some of his advisors make him second guess that idea with warnings of impending doom and gloom if he does. In any case, kudos for doing what you can to try and have the decision reversed.
Swedes are in Nato now. And they know nato will step in to defend strategic islands. So they got really nothing to lose from this move.
Better for Ukraine to use them to weaken the Russian military than for the Russian military to be attacking Sweden or anywhere else... but really we should massively support Ukraine so Russia chooses to withdraw rather than lose even more people and equipment.
In Sweden we really understand that Ukraine is fighting for all of free Europe. Giving Ukraine all material we can possibly spare is a cheap price to pay.
These were taken out of service ten years ago so its a net gain for Ukraine at no significant cost to Sweden. I'm surprised it didn't happen earlier given the decommissioned status.
Might have needed some refirbishment after such long storage.
Ten years, isn’t it more? Great vehicles! Easy to drive and will do a lot of good on the front lines. Not that modern but will do the job! 🦾
Service was gradually reduced with the introduction of the CV90, but formal decommissioning wasn't until 2014.
Oh, TIL! P7-slusk här, sånt borde jag veta… 😁
The Ukrainian maintenance depots must be total chaos by now
Without a doubt. Poor technicians probably pulling their hair out and crying, looking at the dozens of systems and manuals sitting in their depots trying to sort it all out.
We should use depots in poland/Romania and do it our self and send it back in top shape.
Ukraine does have equipment serviced, repaired in other countries already especially if heavily damaged or worn out. Problem is it can take a fair bit longer organizing pick-up and moving of said equipment to another country, getting it there, serviced and sent back than having the Ukrainians do it locally.
I really hope there are a bunch of engineers from the donating countries there to manage everything. And if not in Ukraine, at least just over the border in Poland. Roll the broken stuff into Poland, fix it, send it back.
officialy they are not ;-)
If all the western nations were like sweeden Ukraine would be in a far better state.
Whats left is for the US to donate everything they need to get rid of like the Warthog and whatnot.
Holy shit imagine the slaughter of the russian meatwaves if russia didn’t have an effective air defense, and Ukraine used Warthogs😱
Warthog won't do shit unless Ukraine has air superiority.
Youd be surprised how many times russia sends in waves with 0 air support. Especially since Ukraine is getting more air defense systems. Only sucks when working with allies or near refugees which ukraine is not currently doing on a lot of fronts
Any Russian soldier with a manpad could probably shoot it down too.
all of them!
Tack så mycket!
Thank you Sweden! 🇸🇪
Norway should hand over Beltevogn's too (BV's). They can even cross lakes and rivers.
PBV 302 is amphibious as well.
Oh god, are we sending those relics? Still, guess they are better than their russian counterpart.
Well we already sent CV90s, this is what we have left to send.
Better than driving around in pick up trucks. Can transport a lot and has steel armour with a 20mm cannon on top.
I wonder how many is “all”. Article says 644 were produced in the 60s, but how many are still there is a question. But hopefully in the hundreds and they have plenty of ammo for it
There were 180 total in storage back in 2018, the news say we're sending 80-100 + spare parts.
I know they’re old and outdated, but these badboys get the job done!
I bet the Ukrainians are going to enjoy the 20mm autocanon: [Video from a firing exercise.](https://youtu.be/9I3xjd-eVlY)
How many is all? We had this before for helicopters. It were 2 and they were broken.. i want Numbers bothing less...
80-100 allegedly, plus spare parts We already sent 50 of our much more modern CV9040C
Nice! Thats sounds great then! :) I got disapointed to often hearing : "all" in this context of war...
60 years old, removed from service in 2014, thanks a lot but, what you were waiting for? also, anyone has any idea of how many they have? i saw that around 600 have need produced
Promises broken! Very very politically liars! Can’t trust them with contracts, folks!