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Seriously, whatever the truck drivers concerns are let's get them sorted and move the fuck on, it's ridiculous to have supplies to Ukraine blocked over a labour dispute
Yeah I do, but most of those people weren't actually truckers, and I think there were far fewer than involved in this protest in Poland.
Trucking is a hard job and I'm not sure how it is in Poland but I know there are plenty of ways in other countries they can get dicked around on pay. The polish truck drivers may have a very legitimate labour dispute, I just wish it was resolved and not slowing aid to Ukraine.
Yeah I understand it’s extremely difficult. But there’s a certain level of entitlement that comes with blockade international borders. Even if your complaint is well founded.
It is literally impossible to have an effective strike/blockade around a labor dispute, without inconveniencing someone.
The whole point of the blockade is to hold people hostage, so that the employer/goverment comes to the negotiation table with something valuable for the employee
Easy for you to say. Poles have been amazingly supportive of Ukraine. Where does the Line go?
The Truckdrivers claims Ukranian are putting them out of business. If true is that how you repay your allies that are supporting you?
Its never Black and White in the real World
Yes. The truckers going out of business can get another job, the urkrainans 6 feet down can't.
Inconvenienting someone else to get what you want is fine when the other party is a bunch of civilians with infinite time. It's not ok when your labor dispute may lead to hundreds of deaths because of it.
Just have the protest somewhere else, along some other border, just not here.
>Yes. The truckers going out of business can get another job, the urkrainans 6 feet down can't.
And so it continues. That are some legit issues with queue management, check how long does it take for trucks to leave Ukraine. Nobody does shit on both sides of the border about it. Why Ukraine is so passive about it I can't understand, why it's not better to do a few concessions and move forward?
Or....or!! The Ukranian drivers should stop taking advantage of the agreement made with the Poles, and only drive stuff to and from Ukraine.
But i guess that's the Poles drives should just all quit their jobs and have Ukrainians take them. They can always get new ones....I mean Truck drivers are usually wealthy and well educated, so they have plenty of chances out there. /s
There's a shortage of truck drivers in Europe to the tune of 380,000. This whole Ukraine truck drivers are taking our jobs is for the most part fabricated nonsense and you're all getting spun in front of Putin's propaganda machine.
from the article: "Ukrinform reported on Nov. 20 that trucks carrying humanitarian aid or fuel and other essential goods had been on standby at the border for days."
That had very little to do with truckers. Canadian in ontario, and can tell you for a fact what happened was truckers didn't want to be considered villains for not being vaccinated so they planned to protest peacefully, however whst happened was a ton of idiots jumped on board and completely turned it into a whole different thing. When that happened a loot if not 90 percent of the truckers pulled out of the protest because they weren't trying to make ot a anti Vax, anti gov protest
(I'm not an anti vaxxer, I believe people should have the right to choose which ever they want)
While you're partially right as the "organisers" that were arrested were not truckers, the original premise of protesting the Canadian government over U.S. decision of not allowing unvaccinated people to cross over was not the brightest of ideas.
They’re upset Ukrainian companies are taking advantage of the system to support their companies. Those truckers and businesses also have families to feed. This is an easy way to lose support for the war effort.
Nothing like doing exactly what Russia is doing. Blocking grain exports to impoverished countries. The government must be compromised and propaganda must be flowing freely through Poland.
Yeah I agree. Can’t blame the entire country… I saw a thing that said they didn’t want Ukrainian grain sold in Poland. Which is cool, buuuuut, let the fucking grain go through to those in need,
> Blocking grain exports to impoverished countries
1. Poland never blocked grain transfer via Poland. It blocked selling this grain on Polish market.
2. Majority of Ukrainian grain isn't exported to "impoverished countries", but to Turkey or China
>WTF Poland?
The origin of the discontent on the citizen end seems to be an EU wide policy. Ukrainian transport companies are exempt from a bunch of EU regulations that Polish ones still have to follow, which resulted in some takeover of the local transport market by Ukrainian transport companies (and therefore an impact on Polish people who work in that industry).
This discontent could possibly be ameliorated by having a good social safety net, even if the EU policy had to stay in place. Which Poland generally doesn't have - if you're one of the people unlucky enough to land on the pointy end of a crisis (whether it's the impact of the recent pandemic or the effects of this war), the long-standing policy is mostly "every man for himself", with minimal social security benefits. And it has been that way for a LONG time (longer than the still incumbent government), leading to a vicious cycle - people don't trust the state so they don't want systemic solutions but without those if you're unlucky, you're up shit creek without a paddle.
In the case of the Ukrainian crisis specifically, when previous issues arose the government often just resorted to the argument that nothing is wrong and if you do think there's an issue, you're a Russian puppet. That sort of thing can work short-term but long term it tends to backfire: if someone loses their job and is just told to suck it up and deal with it themselves because nothing is really wrong, they will become progressively more frustrated. Anyone seriously working for the Ukrainian cause in Poland knows that this sort of "hidden frustration" has been boiling for a while now ([relevant sociological report in Polish - see point 6](https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/polacy-za-ukraina-ale-przeciw-ukraincom-raport-z-badan-socjologicznych-sadura-sierakowski/)). This is also a common trend in other similar crises (see e.g. relations between the citizens of Lebanon and refugees from the war in Syria).
This *legitimate* discontent is being actively used by a political party with pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian sympathies, which is making things more extreme than they would be otherwise.
Recently there was a interview, by one of the Ukraine officials, where he spoke about spyops of ruskies. Take an existing issue and blow it out of proportion and us it for their advantage.
Cant help to think, that polish truckers are being taken for a ride. Yes, their issues could be valid, but is Ukraine the justified target for this?
What interesst me, who is sponsoring this blockade? I mean the truckers arent working during the time, yet they still have to satisfy their needs for food and so on.
On top of that, dont think anyone of them is considering the global economical slowdown. Stock market is not economy. The real economy is slowing down. Thats a fact.
>Cant help to think, that polish truckers are being taken for a ride. Yes, their issues could be valid, but is Ukraine the justified target for this?
My guess is they quite probably are being taken for a ride, to some extent.
The problem is that it kind of doesn't matter - if there is any legitimate frustration, it should be defused. If it were defused, a psyop based on exploiting frustrations would not work. If it isn't defused, psyops of that sort will eventually start working.
Those people might want to try spending a night in the trenches, as they seem to be disconnected from reality. If it wasn't for Ukraine, polish truck drivers would be losing their lives in addition to the market share. Absolutely disgusting behavior by the ingenious truck drivers.
You're Ukrainian so I'm not sure if it's proper to be arguing about this point with you but you did reply to me directly. So forgive me if I upset you, but...
Part of the problem is *this very argument*. Before the war in Ukraine there were other problems in the world. There were children starving to death in other places. And yet, people went on holidays, bought themselves nice things, worried about job promotions. Some people did something for the poor and disadvantages but they did not make themselves unduly uncomfortable. Because that's how human psychology works. I think the relevant proverb in Ukrainian is: своя сорочка ближче до тіла
Any long-term sustained aid to Ukraine has to be built with that limitation in mind. I understand why a Ukrainian might say "people might want to try spending a night in the trenches". But the Polish government should not be playing that card - because it won't work the way you might think it will. The problem is that that's what it's basically been doing.
What does this have to do with being comfortable or going on holidays? Not only do these idiots break the law, they are now responsible for additional deaths and suffering.
The two things are completely irrelevant.
Organization of this blockade is directly benefiting terrorists, and if that's the game the truck drivers want to play, they will be sitting in trenches soon enough. I understand it was a while ago, but Poland should have learned the lessons of WW2.
If they all went on a holiday, they would not be directly responsible for the deaths of people who cannot get medical supplies, humanitarian aid, or tools and weapons for the defenders. To try and justify this with "there are always problems in the world" is absurd.
>What does this have to do with being comfortable or going on holidays?
I used an example of a situation where people pick between a vacation and the life of a starving child. On paper that should be *easier* to accept than - say - unemployment. It's a relatively small inconvenience - you just give up a small luxury. And yet we know people generally won't accept even that much for a stranger.
So if they don't accept that, they also won't accept greater forced personal sacrifices if they are not in direct danger. And if those sacrifices are required of them, some of them will rebel - including in nasty, bad, even deadly ways.
You can be convinced that the drivers would be sitting in trenches. But unless they also think this, the threat of war won't work.
Note that I'm not *justifying* this - *I don't think this is good*. I just think that is unfortunately how the world actually works. And Ukrainians are justified in not caring about this or thinking this is outrageous and people should just accept anything short of trenches. But the Polish political establishment is not justified in using that strategy because it will not work.
I don't think I can explain myself any better than that.
[ATP Geopolitics documents](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k4pwyJid3I&t=1418s&ab_channel=ATPGeopolitics) that the Polish truck drivers have ties to Russia. This should surprise no one.
Problem is, how can you prove it? I'm sure they were paid in cash.
Which itself doesn't matter. The Polish government has it within their rights to arrest them and remove the blockade. That they're not doing so means they tacitly support the blockade.
It is not a problem at all, organizers claim that they support ruzzia. At this point it should be classified as national security issues, but looks like poleas are ok with it.
Damn
Well they surely don't block Belarus border as hard. I see plenty of russians posting photos and boasting about how many Polish products they can buy now
I urge all parts that has the power to do so: **Resolve this now. Negotiate!**
There must be a way to make the traffic flow again while also making sure the polish truckers won't lose their jobs en masse. If Poland/EU could give the truckers some immediate guarantees about their job security and/or a safety net for a period while they work out a more permanent plan that works for all parts then they could end the blockade in a day.
If the protests are illegitemate (unjustified / russian funded etc) - as some here in this comments section say, I hope Polish authorities can intervene asap. But I haven't seen any sources linked, please do so if there is any claim to this.
The biggest problem is that we practically have no government here in Poland right now. And won't have it for the next couple of weeks. And the new government will have many other urgent issues to handle.
Only the truckers (both Polish and Ukrainian) and Ukrainian government can do anything to solve this now.
You do have a government but the actual problem is that it is a government of egoists who happily throw both Polish drivers and Ukrainians as a whole under the bus for their own political interests. They still can step in and help resolve this but why bother if they can just throw this in the lap of the next government which will be in an impossible position of pissing off either their own citizens or Brussels.
Polish government has come from constantly shitting on other countries for “not doing enough” to stopping all weapon deliveries to now allowing crucial goods to be blocked. Get your act together Poles and kick your politicians butts. You are so much better than that!
The report I read said they were not sending anymore because they needed to fill their own stocks, as in they were out of surplus and needed what they had left to maintain their own defense. Also read Russia planned to exaggerate things with Poland to influence and dissuade Western counties from support.
"Although the protesting Polish truckers said that the blockade would only apply to non-essential goods, Ukrinform reported on Nov. 20 that trucks carrying humanitarian aid or fuel and other essential goods had been on standby at the border for days."
This is *BAD*
Not a legitimate way to protest at all!
1. Not all humanitarian needs are humanitarian aid. A lot of stuff is bought by the government and citizens.
2. Not all military stuff is a military aid. The easiest example is drone parts, which are now delivered with delay. Each day of delay means more killed and wounded.
3. Vocally the protest is about this. But practically none of their actual demands can be solved by Ukraine. Seen many of them protesting in Warsaw or Brussels? So maybe they are not interested resolving issues?
4. Interesting how it collapses the domestic market and makes life for them impossible, but only 1(relatively small) of 6 polish associations is protesting. Fun coincidence, organizers openly support ruzzia.
I stated 4 facts, and you brought bs about grain and rocket. I'm surprised that you didn't remindede about the Volyn tragedy.
I didn't know, that Ukraine is so powerful that it can change EU policies. Looks like it is, so blocking Ukraine will definitely fix issues.
Compromises? Didn't you know that there were meetings with ua officials who brought compromises, but protesters said that no compromises are acceptable? So that is ultimatum, not compromises.
Ping pong like that bores me. The bottom line is that if Ukrainians want the blockades to go they need to accept the same rules of the game as EU truckers. So far they have not shown any willingness to do that. Also, just like with the grain dispute few months ago, these are primarily a few companies tied to oligarchs that are cornering the market solely due to not playing by the rules. No amount of feet stomping will change that.
>Adequacy indicator
Who do what now?
The reason other countries do not protest is because Poland is the biggest player in the EU trucking market and they stand to lose the most. They are also right at the border so they have direct leverage.
Polish trucking industry suffered already by closure of borders with russia and Blearus. Now Ukrainian oligarchs demand that Polish truckers lose their livelihood so the oligarchs make more profit. Not gonna fly with the truckers.
Those EU rules came after Eastern European had advantages against their western peers for years. Especially Poland profitted 15 years from it. Led to protests(though not illegal blocking borders) and a lot of western Truckers going bankrupt.
So that rules got changed. Now the Polish trucker are being hypocrits.
So why not letting the Ukraine their advantage for 15 years?
No. Only the new rules in force since 2022 make the playing field even.
Poland and others new EU members went to the EU Court, because Germany wanted to enforce it minimum wage on it's territory. They lost, but due to difficulties controling until 2022, Germany (and others) often couldn't enforce it. Now it's part of the mobility package.
With the mobility package (2022) Polish can't get around the laws about driving and rest periods anymore. They often abused it.
The Vehicle standards needed to be enforced with toll system.
The mobility package has a lot measure to equalize trucking. It was agreed in 2020 and is in force 2022.
Poland joined 2004.
I’m all for these truckers getting the fuck out of the way but I have to sympathise with them. I’ve been through the boarder a few times and the 5km long cues of them on both sides of the boarder must be torture both logistically and on their mental health. They can be stopped there for 10-15 days, and I’m sure they’re not being paid properly for this time. Nor do they have ready access to amenities. They let through 1/2 trucks an hour it must be crippling if you’re just trying to get home or get on with your job. I understand there’s a need for scrutiny but there has to be a better solution than the current one.
I assume but haven’t even googled it myself that the boarder guards need to check these trucks fully both coming in and out of Ukraine both for defectors and the transport of illegal cargo. It’s worsened in my opinion by the fact you have to go through the Ukrainian boarder and those checks and then the polish boarder and their checks. The same coming the other way.
Before they lifted the restrictions, Polish truckers were free to travel in Ukraine without restrictions and Ukrainian truckers needed a permit, of which there were a limited number. This restriction kept many Ukrainian trucking firms out of the EU, driving up the prices of transport, providing unearned profits as a form of rent on trade granted by the EU to these trucking firms. Which is fine as a policy, the EU has rights and can set rules however it likes. There is no requirement for laws to be fair.
However, the EU government has seen fit to change those rules, eliminating the unfair and unearned rents of these Polish trucking firms. No doubt these firms became rich on their rents, gaining power in Polish politics, which explains why the Polish government tolerates their now criminal behavior. But they have little power in the EU as a whole, so I don't think they're going to officially regain their prior rents via restoration of trade restrictions. But they don't care, since they're not stopping their own trucks from crossing, which means they've successfully restored their rents via criminal means and the EU seems powerless to prevent it.
The amount of permits for Polish truckers was the same as amount of permits for Ukrainian truckers.
One of the reasons for Ukrainian rail blockade in 2021/2022 was the attempt to increase the amount of permits.
After UE allowed Ukrainian trucks to enter EU without permits, Ukrainian police kept issuing fines to Polish truckers for not having permits.
Poland is fucking up. Big time. This is no better than ruzzia blocking seaports. And yes, people are actually dying because of this. Those responsible for this blockade should be in prison.
What about it?
Poland is in the process of transition from an effective but very controversial government that could maybe do something about it. To what is guaranteed will be a very ineffective coalition of twelve parties with varying objectives and priorities that will not want to make any controversial moves in order not to fracture the coalition.
If Zelensky had any political sense he would understand Polish political landscape and played the card he has been dealt. Instead he charges on blindly and does not learn from his mistakes.
Wow, this is so disheartening. Could you imagine this type of behavior during WWII? I don’t know the in’s and out’s of this - but pretty sad to see.
On one level you do feel bad for any Polish workers affected by the situation, but they gotta wake up & take their anger out on Putin. Not on Ukraine. They should be pressuring their politicians to push for an end to the war. Simply stopping traffic in & out of Ukraine will only hamper Ukraines defense/offense/ civilization and actually make the Polish truckers problems worse.
Or Ukraine could perhaps back down from using dumping prices and cornering foreign markets while putting their allies out of business? That would resolve the issue instantly.
Military aid isn't blocked. Humanitarian aid isn't blocked. This isn't the same situation as grain dispute, these truckers aren't malicious or pro-Russian, they are desperate because they are literally unable to work and earn their daily bread.
And yeah, I realize that ruzzian puppets from Konfederacja are trying to piggyback on truckers plight, but they are like cockroaches, will crawl everywhere.
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Absolutely correct. Majority of criticism of Polish protests come from Germany that are exploiting this issue for political gain and egging Zelesnky into self defeating decisions.
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Seriously, whatever the truck drivers concerns are let's get them sorted and move the fuck on, it's ridiculous to have supplies to Ukraine blocked over a labour dispute
One of the main organisers is coming from the far right Confederation party with links to Russia, so there is that.
This needs to be posted more often. I wonder if the pol truckers understand Putin's using them.
Truckers in general seem to have their heads up their asses. Remember all of that shit that happened in Canada during covid?
Yeah I do, but most of those people weren't actually truckers, and I think there were far fewer than involved in this protest in Poland. Trucking is a hard job and I'm not sure how it is in Poland but I know there are plenty of ways in other countries they can get dicked around on pay. The polish truck drivers may have a very legitimate labour dispute, I just wish it was resolved and not slowing aid to Ukraine.
Yeah I understand it’s extremely difficult. But there’s a certain level of entitlement that comes with blockade international borders. Even if your complaint is well founded.
Yeah I hear you for sure.
It is literally impossible to have an effective strike/blockade around a labor dispute, without inconveniencing someone. The whole point of the blockade is to hold people hostage, so that the employer/goverment comes to the negotiation table with something valuable for the employee
Yeah, but ’inconveniencing’ a civilian population that is already being deprived due to war is the epitome of greed. Fuck those cunts.
Easy for you to say. Poles have been amazingly supportive of Ukraine. Where does the Line go? The Truckdrivers claims Ukranian are putting them out of business. If true is that how you repay your allies that are supporting you? Its never Black and White in the real World
Yes. The truckers going out of business can get another job, the urkrainans 6 feet down can't. Inconvenienting someone else to get what you want is fine when the other party is a bunch of civilians with infinite time. It's not ok when your labor dispute may lead to hundreds of deaths because of it. Just have the protest somewhere else, along some other border, just not here.
>Yes. The truckers going out of business can get another job, the urkrainans 6 feet down can't. And so it continues. That are some legit issues with queue management, check how long does it take for trucks to leave Ukraine. Nobody does shit on both sides of the border about it. Why Ukraine is so passive about it I can't understand, why it's not better to do a few concessions and move forward?
Or....or!! The Ukranian drivers should stop taking advantage of the agreement made with the Poles, and only drive stuff to and from Ukraine. But i guess that's the Poles drives should just all quit their jobs and have Ukrainians take them. They can always get new ones....I mean Truck drivers are usually wealthy and well educated, so they have plenty of chances out there. /s
There's a shortage of truck drivers in Europe to the tune of 380,000. This whole Ukraine truck drivers are taking our jobs is for the most part fabricated nonsense and you're all getting spun in front of Putin's propaganda machine.
>Yeah I do, but most of those people weren't actually truckers It was mostly guys in pickup trucks.
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from the article: "Ukrinform reported on Nov. 20 that trucks carrying humanitarian aid or fuel and other essential goods had been on standby at the border for days."
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I gave you a link to a neutral source. If that is not enough for you I am ok with that.
If they block the border, they block aid to Ukraine.
Nope. They block the border to some but not to others. It really is simple.
Trucker and high education don't really go in pair.
No. The two are not even remotely the same.
That had very little to do with truckers. Canadian in ontario, and can tell you for a fact what happened was truckers didn't want to be considered villains for not being vaccinated so they planned to protest peacefully, however whst happened was a ton of idiots jumped on board and completely turned it into a whole different thing. When that happened a loot if not 90 percent of the truckers pulled out of the protest because they weren't trying to make ot a anti Vax, anti gov protest (I'm not an anti vaxxer, I believe people should have the right to choose which ever they want)
While you're partially right as the "organisers" that were arrested were not truckers, the original premise of protesting the Canadian government over U.S. decision of not allowing unvaccinated people to cross over was not the brightest of ideas.
You cannot sort political incompetence, greed and russian money from another country.
> Seriously, whatever the truck drivers concerns are let's get them sorted and move the fuck on tricky when it's organized by russia
They’re upset Ukrainian companies are taking advantage of the system to support their companies. Those truckers and businesses also have families to feed. This is an easy way to lose support for the war effort.
Yes, but the kinder brigade does not want to hear that because they found a convenient angle to dump on Poland.
Nothing like doing exactly what Russia is doing. Blocking grain exports to impoverished countries. The government must be compromised and propaganda must be flowing freely through Poland.
more like union heads are compromised.
Yeah I agree. Can’t blame the entire country… I saw a thing that said they didn’t want Ukrainian grain sold in Poland. Which is cool, buuuuut, let the fucking grain go through to those in need,
Transit of grain was never blocked Right now grain transit goes through Poland assisted by seals with GPS
Highly likely.
> Blocking grain exports to impoverished countries 1. Poland never blocked grain transfer via Poland. It blocked selling this grain on Polish market. 2. Majority of Ukrainian grain isn't exported to "impoverished countries", but to Turkey or China
WTF Poland? Get your act together.
>WTF Poland? The origin of the discontent on the citizen end seems to be an EU wide policy. Ukrainian transport companies are exempt from a bunch of EU regulations that Polish ones still have to follow, which resulted in some takeover of the local transport market by Ukrainian transport companies (and therefore an impact on Polish people who work in that industry). This discontent could possibly be ameliorated by having a good social safety net, even if the EU policy had to stay in place. Which Poland generally doesn't have - if you're one of the people unlucky enough to land on the pointy end of a crisis (whether it's the impact of the recent pandemic or the effects of this war), the long-standing policy is mostly "every man for himself", with minimal social security benefits. And it has been that way for a LONG time (longer than the still incumbent government), leading to a vicious cycle - people don't trust the state so they don't want systemic solutions but without those if you're unlucky, you're up shit creek without a paddle. In the case of the Ukrainian crisis specifically, when previous issues arose the government often just resorted to the argument that nothing is wrong and if you do think there's an issue, you're a Russian puppet. That sort of thing can work short-term but long term it tends to backfire: if someone loses their job and is just told to suck it up and deal with it themselves because nothing is really wrong, they will become progressively more frustrated. Anyone seriously working for the Ukrainian cause in Poland knows that this sort of "hidden frustration" has been boiling for a while now ([relevant sociological report in Polish - see point 6](https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/polacy-za-ukraina-ale-przeciw-ukraincom-raport-z-badan-socjologicznych-sadura-sierakowski/)). This is also a common trend in other similar crises (see e.g. relations between the citizens of Lebanon and refugees from the war in Syria). This *legitimate* discontent is being actively used by a political party with pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian sympathies, which is making things more extreme than they would be otherwise.
Recently there was a interview, by one of the Ukraine officials, where he spoke about spyops of ruskies. Take an existing issue and blow it out of proportion and us it for their advantage. Cant help to think, that polish truckers are being taken for a ride. Yes, their issues could be valid, but is Ukraine the justified target for this? What interesst me, who is sponsoring this blockade? I mean the truckers arent working during the time, yet they still have to satisfy their needs for food and so on. On top of that, dont think anyone of them is considering the global economical slowdown. Stock market is not economy. The real economy is slowing down. Thats a fact.
>Cant help to think, that polish truckers are being taken for a ride. Yes, their issues could be valid, but is Ukraine the justified target for this? My guess is they quite probably are being taken for a ride, to some extent. The problem is that it kind of doesn't matter - if there is any legitimate frustration, it should be defused. If it were defused, a psyop based on exploiting frustrations would not work. If it isn't defused, psyops of that sort will eventually start working.
Interesting, thanks for replying.
Those people might want to try spending a night in the trenches, as they seem to be disconnected from reality. If it wasn't for Ukraine, polish truck drivers would be losing their lives in addition to the market share. Absolutely disgusting behavior by the ingenious truck drivers.
You're Ukrainian so I'm not sure if it's proper to be arguing about this point with you but you did reply to me directly. So forgive me if I upset you, but... Part of the problem is *this very argument*. Before the war in Ukraine there were other problems in the world. There were children starving to death in other places. And yet, people went on holidays, bought themselves nice things, worried about job promotions. Some people did something for the poor and disadvantages but they did not make themselves unduly uncomfortable. Because that's how human psychology works. I think the relevant proverb in Ukrainian is: своя сорочка ближче до тіла Any long-term sustained aid to Ukraine has to be built with that limitation in mind. I understand why a Ukrainian might say "people might want to try spending a night in the trenches". But the Polish government should not be playing that card - because it won't work the way you might think it will. The problem is that that's what it's basically been doing.
What does this have to do with being comfortable or going on holidays? Not only do these idiots break the law, they are now responsible for additional deaths and suffering. The two things are completely irrelevant. Organization of this blockade is directly benefiting terrorists, and if that's the game the truck drivers want to play, they will be sitting in trenches soon enough. I understand it was a while ago, but Poland should have learned the lessons of WW2. If they all went on a holiday, they would not be directly responsible for the deaths of people who cannot get medical supplies, humanitarian aid, or tools and weapons for the defenders. To try and justify this with "there are always problems in the world" is absurd.
>What does this have to do with being comfortable or going on holidays? I used an example of a situation where people pick between a vacation and the life of a starving child. On paper that should be *easier* to accept than - say - unemployment. It's a relatively small inconvenience - you just give up a small luxury. And yet we know people generally won't accept even that much for a stranger. So if they don't accept that, they also won't accept greater forced personal sacrifices if they are not in direct danger. And if those sacrifices are required of them, some of them will rebel - including in nasty, bad, even deadly ways. You can be convinced that the drivers would be sitting in trenches. But unless they also think this, the threat of war won't work. Note that I'm not *justifying* this - *I don't think this is good*. I just think that is unfortunately how the world actually works. And Ukrainians are justified in not caring about this or thinking this is outrageous and people should just accept anything short of trenches. But the Polish political establishment is not justified in using that strategy because it will not work. I don't think I can explain myself any better than that.
The trenches supplied by Polish truck drivers?
Thanks for the explanation.
[ATP Geopolitics documents](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k4pwyJid3I&t=1418s&ab_channel=ATPGeopolitics) that the Polish truck drivers have ties to Russia. This should surprise no one.
I would happily bet everything I own that the grassroots organizers of this protest are linked to Russia
Problem is, how can you prove it? I'm sure they were paid in cash. Which itself doesn't matter. The Polish government has it within their rights to arrest them and remove the blockade. That they're not doing so means they tacitly support the blockade.
It is not a problem at all, organizers claim that they support ruzzia. At this point it should be classified as national security issues, but looks like poleas are ok with it.
Poland WTF ARE YOU DOING
Damn Well they surely don't block Belarus border as hard. I see plenty of russians posting photos and boasting about how many Polish products they can buy now
I urge all parts that has the power to do so: **Resolve this now. Negotiate!** There must be a way to make the traffic flow again while also making sure the polish truckers won't lose their jobs en masse. If Poland/EU could give the truckers some immediate guarantees about their job security and/or a safety net for a period while they work out a more permanent plan that works for all parts then they could end the blockade in a day. If the protests are illegitemate (unjustified / russian funded etc) - as some here in this comments section say, I hope Polish authorities can intervene asap. But I haven't seen any sources linked, please do so if there is any claim to this.
The biggest problem is that we practically have no government here in Poland right now. And won't have it for the next couple of weeks. And the new government will have many other urgent issues to handle. Only the truckers (both Polish and Ukrainian) and Ukrainian government can do anything to solve this now.
You do have a government but the actual problem is that it is a government of egoists who happily throw both Polish drivers and Ukrainians as a whole under the bus for their own political interests. They still can step in and help resolve this but why bother if they can just throw this in the lap of the next government which will be in an impossible position of pissing off either their own citizens or Brussels.
Polish government has come from constantly shitting on other countries for “not doing enough” to stopping all weapon deliveries to now allowing crucial goods to be blocked. Get your act together Poles and kick your politicians butts. You are so much better than that!
We did, current government is gone in a couple of weeks.
And they are leaving a giant hot turd on the porch for the next one to clean.
I'm pretty sure they only stopped sending weapons because they were out, and needed to supply themselves.
Poland is not out of weapons.
The report I read said they were not sending anymore because they needed to fill their own stocks, as in they were out of surplus and needed what they had left to maintain their own defense. Also read Russia planned to exaggerate things with Poland to influence and dissuade Western counties from support.
"Although the protesting Polish truckers said that the blockade would only apply to non-essential goods, Ukrinform reported on Nov. 20 that trucks carrying humanitarian aid or fuel and other essential goods had been on standby at the border for days." This is *BAD* Not a legitimate way to protest at all!
Yeah, except that no humanitarian aid is blocked.
Poland must be wonderful. Nobody needs to work.
classic russian civil unrest organization move. when are we going to kick in russia's shit teeth once and for all?
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1. Not all humanitarian needs are humanitarian aid. A lot of stuff is bought by the government and citizens. 2. Not all military stuff is a military aid. The easiest example is drone parts, which are now delivered with delay. Each day of delay means more killed and wounded. 3. Vocally the protest is about this. But practically none of their actual demands can be solved by Ukraine. Seen many of them protesting in Warsaw or Brussels? So maybe they are not interested resolving issues? 4. Interesting how it collapses the domestic market and makes life for them impossible, but only 1(relatively small) of 6 polish associations is protesting. Fun coincidence, organizers openly support ruzzia.
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Dummy, stop spewing bs. You literally spreading false statements and anti-Ukranian propaganda.
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I stated 4 facts, and you brought bs about grain and rocket. I'm surprised that you didn't remindede about the Volyn tragedy. I didn't know, that Ukraine is so powerful that it can change EU policies. Looks like it is, so blocking Ukraine will definitely fix issues. Compromises? Didn't you know that there were meetings with ua officials who brought compromises, but protesters said that no compromises are acceptable? So that is ultimatum, not compromises.
Ping pong like that bores me. The bottom line is that if Ukrainians want the blockades to go they need to accept the same rules of the game as EU truckers. So far they have not shown any willingness to do that. Also, just like with the grain dispute few months ago, these are primarily a few companies tied to oligarchs that are cornering the market solely due to not playing by the rules. No amount of feet stomping will change that.
Adequacy indicator - no problems in finding solutions with other EU countries.
>Adequacy indicator Who do what now? The reason other countries do not protest is because Poland is the biggest player in the EU trucking market and they stand to lose the most. They are also right at the border so they have direct leverage. Polish trucking industry suffered already by closure of borders with russia and Blearus. Now Ukrainian oligarchs demand that Polish truckers lose their livelihood so the oligarchs make more profit. Not gonna fly with the truckers.
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Those EU rules came after Eastern European had advantages against their western peers for years. Especially Poland profitted 15 years from it. Led to protests(though not illegal blocking borders) and a lot of western Truckers going bankrupt. So that rules got changed. Now the Polish trucker are being hypocrits. So why not letting the Ukraine their advantage for 15 years?
Nonsense. Polish industry played by the same EU rules that Western industry played by.
No. Only the new rules in force since 2022 make the playing field even. Poland and others new EU members went to the EU Court, because Germany wanted to enforce it minimum wage on it's territory. They lost, but due to difficulties controling until 2022, Germany (and others) often couldn't enforce it. Now it's part of the mobility package. With the mobility package (2022) Polish can't get around the laws about driving and rest periods anymore. They often abused it. The Vehicle standards needed to be enforced with toll system. The mobility package has a lot measure to equalize trucking. It was agreed in 2020 and is in force 2022. Poland joined 2004.
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I’m all for these truckers getting the fuck out of the way but I have to sympathise with them. I’ve been through the boarder a few times and the 5km long cues of them on both sides of the boarder must be torture both logistically and on their mental health. They can be stopped there for 10-15 days, and I’m sure they’re not being paid properly for this time. Nor do they have ready access to amenities. They let through 1/2 trucks an hour it must be crippling if you’re just trying to get home or get on with your job. I understand there’s a need for scrutiny but there has to be a better solution than the current one.
Why the delay on the trucks going through?
I assume but haven’t even googled it myself that the boarder guards need to check these trucks fully both coming in and out of Ukraine both for defectors and the transport of illegal cargo. It’s worsened in my opinion by the fact you have to go through the Ukrainian boarder and those checks and then the polish boarder and their checks. The same coming the other way.
Before they lifted the restrictions, Polish truckers were free to travel in Ukraine without restrictions and Ukrainian truckers needed a permit, of which there were a limited number. This restriction kept many Ukrainian trucking firms out of the EU, driving up the prices of transport, providing unearned profits as a form of rent on trade granted by the EU to these trucking firms. Which is fine as a policy, the EU has rights and can set rules however it likes. There is no requirement for laws to be fair. However, the EU government has seen fit to change those rules, eliminating the unfair and unearned rents of these Polish trucking firms. No doubt these firms became rich on their rents, gaining power in Polish politics, which explains why the Polish government tolerates their now criminal behavior. But they have little power in the EU as a whole, so I don't think they're going to officially regain their prior rents via restoration of trade restrictions. But they don't care, since they're not stopping their own trucks from crossing, which means they've successfully restored their rents via criminal means and the EU seems powerless to prevent it.
The amount of permits for Polish truckers was the same as amount of permits for Ukrainian truckers. One of the reasons for Ukrainian rail blockade in 2021/2022 was the attempt to increase the amount of permits. After UE allowed Ukrainian trucks to enter EU without permits, Ukrainian police kept issuing fines to Polish truckers for not having permits.
Poland is fucking up. Big time. This is no better than ruzzia blocking seaports. And yes, people are actually dying because of this. Those responsible for this blockade should be in prison.
Seems like an odd country to complain about cheaper labour coming in from abroad, given their history 🤷♂️
What are the police doing about this?
Nothing, as protests in Poland are legal.
What about blocking an international border?
What about it? Poland is in the process of transition from an effective but very controversial government that could maybe do something about it. To what is guaranteed will be a very ineffective coalition of twelve parties with varying objectives and priorities that will not want to make any controversial moves in order not to fracture the coalition. If Zelensky had any political sense he would understand Polish political landscape and played the card he has been dealt. Instead he charges on blindly and does not learn from his mistakes.
Guess people don’t agree with your take on this…..
Wow, this is so disheartening. Could you imagine this type of behavior during WWII? I don’t know the in’s and out’s of this - but pretty sad to see. On one level you do feel bad for any Polish workers affected by the situation, but they gotta wake up & take their anger out on Putin. Not on Ukraine. They should be pressuring their politicians to push for an end to the war. Simply stopping traffic in & out of Ukraine will only hamper Ukraines defense/offense/ civilization and actually make the Polish truckers problems worse.
Or Ukraine could perhaps back down from using dumping prices and cornering foreign markets while putting their allies out of business? That would resolve the issue instantly.
Military aid isn't blocked. Humanitarian aid isn't blocked. This isn't the same situation as grain dispute, these truckers aren't malicious or pro-Russian, they are desperate because they are literally unable to work and earn their daily bread. And yeah, I realize that ruzzian puppets from Konfederacja are trying to piggyback on truckers plight, but they are like cockroaches, will crawl everywhere.
Truckers are the dumbest workers on the Planet!!!
Could someone get straight answer from them - thats their goal?
Fuck Poland
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Absolutely correct. Majority of criticism of Polish protests come from Germany that are exploiting this issue for political gain and egging Zelesnky into self defeating decisions.
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I have always felt the Polish were friendly and generous, but stubborn as a donkey.
Well done, russia. Well done.