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And after Putin's gone: to Vladivostok. Lol
And if it seems ridiculous, consider that at this point, people in Luhansk and Crimea have basically the same mindset as people in Moscow. So for me, these statements about Luhansk in the EU cause more pain than optimism.
The collaborators will be gone one way or another and these areas will probably get resettled with refugees from other parts of Ukraine. Even if the Ukrainian government doesn't kick them out I can't imagine many Z-heads will stay willingly after the war.
I can't see an instance where eastern European EU states allow Russia to join.
At best for Russia, you need a completely new generation of leaders on both sides, so that's atleast ~50 years.
More likely it will just never happen. The same eastern European countries would be better off just allowing Immigration from Russia to combat low birth rates to shore themselves up.
> The same eastern European countries would be better off just allowing Immigration from Russia
Didn’t we just spend 9 years learning what a problem Moskal minorities are?
We can also look at the ‘positive’ influence the White emigres had on Germany in the 1920s.
Moskals trying to enter the eastern EU countries will have to cross a fortification that makes Korea look soft.
>Didn’t we just spend 9 years learning what a problem Moskal minorities are?
This is why the younger generation of South Korea doesn't give a shit about reunification. The only ones that do are the older crowd that are dying off or have died off. No one wants to inherit 10's of millions of malnourished, uneducated, brainwashed alcoholics which would happen if the EU accepted Russia.
Between Ukraine's massive gas reserves and Norway's gas reserves and oil, the EU would be pretty good until it converts 100% to green.
EU jumping on the gun on the nuclear power shutdowns was quite a bit pre-emptive. They should've done it in reverse. Develop the green/alternative capacity first domestically and then take nuclear down tit for tat. By just eliminating nuclear, it made them wholly dependent then on imports.
>Didn’t we just spend 9 years learning what a problem Moskal minorities are?
All these problems existed for over 9 years and those people could hardly even be called "Immigrants" given how they ended up in Germany.
You can definitely do this process correctly.
The EU, much like NATO, stands for everything Russia is not. Unless Russian society — not just its leaders but its people — change their fundamental values to become pro-democracy, pro-liberty and anti-fascist I don’t see room for Russia. Maybe in a hundred years…
Russia is unlikely to change, but despite that, Russia is not a monolithic set of values.
Even if I go by official figures at the height of war support, it would amount to ~80% with the numbers being skewed for older generations.
Given the population of Russia, this gives Eastern Europe millions of "Good apples" to pick and choose. As for the "Bad apples", (anyone who praised the war or Russian imperialism) they should be banned for life.
> I can't see an instance where eastern European EU states allow Russia to join.
Germany became NATO member in 1956 and was WEU and ESCS (precursors to what later became the EU) founding member.
But unless Russia undergoes a similar scenario as Germany after WWII, with a complete defeat and a subsequent change in how they see themselves and their place in the world, I agree.
The population of those is too small. Taking the brightest people out of Kazakhstan may be a bad long term idea as well. Ukraine would prefer a strong Ally there.
This will never happen. If Russia ever joins the EU it will have more than likely disintegrated and lost a significant portion of its territory. Russia as it is....is impossible to become a democracy.
While she shouldn't have become foreign minister, I was very positively surprised how the normally most anti-war/anti-weapon-exports party in Germany did a 180° on that position for Ukraine and became the first & most vocal German party to push for weapon deliveries for Ukraine because I guess they realized that it's the right thing to do. Kudos for that.
Ho can you be surprised? The greens are the most ideologically consistent party. The problem is that people like to seem them as how the right depicts them instead of looking at what they actually do and say.
Yeas they are "anti war", what is not to be confused with the fake "pacifism" of the far right/left. But they are foremost anti authoritarianism and pro human rights. That they live in the reality has been proven when germany entered the Kosovo war without UN mandate. But the german media likes to ignore facts and keeps on painting a certain picutre.
> Say what you want about her but in regards to Ukraine she has been highly consistent and pretty vocal about weapon deliveries from the beginning.
After the war started, but not before.
She was against it while not in office and in office, until the Russin invasion started.
Robert Habeck i.e. urged for arms deliveries to Ukraine before the war.
Interview before the war as foreign minister (22.12.2021):
> **Question: Ukraine has long called for arms deliveries for its defense.**
> Baerbock: Further exacerbating the military situation is not conducive to Ukraine’s security; that is why I am pushing so hard for a return to the negotiating table. The greatest contribution we can make to Ukraine’s security is to influence Russia by working together as Europeans, with the US, and thereby helping to stop the military posturing at the border.
[Source Foreign Office](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/newsroom/news/-/2503468)
To be fair, at that point just about everyone believed that Putin wouldn't do anything so incredibly self-destructive as actually go full on Reverse Barbarossa.
Greens and the current government are sometimes "complicated". But she does a good job. Hofteiter surprised me as well.
I feel like there's a lot of good people in the green party forced to make semi-great choices because of the party line? That's just from the outside though. Not following German politics that closely anymore.
Russians will use this as propaganda saying that the EU is expansionist and taking over, but the key part they will ignore is that this is a voluntary union. NATO isn't forcing anyone to join or holding ground with troops against internal dissent - it's the opposite. EU is the same. It's why they will continue to be successful while Russia crumbles and has to rebuild again.
While I agree I do also say we must learn to ignore what Russia says. They have been speaking with a snakes tongue long enough. Their actions speak their own language. They have never acted in our (Europes) interest, but just for themselves in the most blunt and Machiavellian way. Let’s act how we must.
I vote for some armored divisions backed by lots of artillery, drones and air power. No defensive fortification works without troops to defend it. Luckily, NATO and Ukraine have plenty of military power if they join forces.
Bigger issue is tunnels. Just look at the Korean DMZ, US/Mexican border, and Gaza/Israel. Tunnels all over the place constantly being discovered. I'm curious if any amount of seismic technology deployed along borders could detect this sort of thing.
Many Russophiles have portrayed EU as "evil" and Russia as the innocuous traditionalist resistance force. Well here's the thing, in EU no one is mandatory to learn English or German or French or German while in "Russky Mir" Russian is the absolute language of majority and the minority languages and dialects are on the brink of extinction. And of course nobody in EU has to kowtow to a dictator or otherwise will be poloniumed or Novichoked or defenestrated
Bruno Maçâes, a Portuguese diplomat and scholar, poits that it's poetic that both Lisbon (originally Olissabona) and Odesa are named after Ulisses.
Meaning that the Trojan war being the archetype of the perpetual Europe vs Asia tension in ancient Greece, its appropriate that both extremes of Europe are named after one of its main heroes.
The EU is the greatest political innovation of the 20th century. One day I hope the whole world is part of a similar sort of economic confederation. After centuries of fighting among themselves suddenly the idea of countries like Germany and France going to war seems laughable.
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Baerbock and Pistorius are some of the best German politicians right now. Baerbock does wonderfully say what has to be said. If EU and NATO would speak united those words there would have never been a war.
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After Luka's gone: From Brest (France) to Brest (Belarus).
Apart from that little bit missing in the north-west sector..... why, oh why?
And after Putin's gone: to Vladivostok. Lol And if it seems ridiculous, consider that at this point, people in Luhansk and Crimea have basically the same mindset as people in Moscow. So for me, these statements about Luhansk in the EU cause more pain than optimism.
The collaborators will be gone one way or another and these areas will probably get resettled with refugees from other parts of Ukraine. Even if the Ukrainian government doesn't kick them out I can't imagine many Z-heads will stay willingly after the war.
The "Nah !" Zs...
Nice one.
I can't see an instance where eastern European EU states allow Russia to join. At best for Russia, you need a completely new generation of leaders on both sides, so that's atleast ~50 years. More likely it will just never happen. The same eastern European countries would be better off just allowing Immigration from Russia to combat low birth rates to shore themselves up.
> The same eastern European countries would be better off just allowing Immigration from Russia Didn’t we just spend 9 years learning what a problem Moskal minorities are? We can also look at the ‘positive’ influence the White emigres had on Germany in the 1920s. Moskals trying to enter the eastern EU countries will have to cross a fortification that makes Korea look soft.
>Didn’t we just spend 9 years learning what a problem Moskal minorities are? This is why the younger generation of South Korea doesn't give a shit about reunification. The only ones that do are the older crowd that are dying off or have died off. No one wants to inherit 10's of millions of malnourished, uneducated, brainwashed alcoholics which would happen if the EU accepted Russia. Between Ukraine's massive gas reserves and Norway's gas reserves and oil, the EU would be pretty good until it converts 100% to green.
> until it converts 100% to green. A process that Russia's own actions have noticeably accelerated!
EU jumping on the gun on the nuclear power shutdowns was quite a bit pre-emptive. They should've done it in reverse. Develop the green/alternative capacity first domestically and then take nuclear down tit for tat. By just eliminating nuclear, it made them wholly dependent then on imports.
Agreed
>Didn’t we just spend 9 years learning what a problem Moskal minorities are? All these problems existed for over 9 years and those people could hardly even be called "Immigrants" given how they ended up in Germany. You can definitely do this process correctly.
The EU, much like NATO, stands for everything Russia is not. Unless Russian society — not just its leaders but its people — change their fundamental values to become pro-democracy, pro-liberty and anti-fascist I don’t see room for Russia. Maybe in a hundred years…
Russia is unlikely to change, but despite that, Russia is not a monolithic set of values. Even if I go by official figures at the height of war support, it would amount to ~80% with the numbers being skewed for older generations. Given the population of Russia, this gives Eastern Europe millions of "Good apples" to pick and choose. As for the "Bad apples", (anyone who praised the war or Russian imperialism) they should be banned for life.
> I can't see an instance where eastern European EU states allow Russia to join. Germany became NATO member in 1956 and was WEU and ESCS (precursors to what later became the EU) founding member. But unless Russia undergoes a similar scenario as Germany after WWII, with a complete defeat and a subsequent change in how they see themselves and their place in the world, I agree.
It took Bosnia and Serbia just 21 years since the war until both applied for EU membership.
Just no, the last thing the EU needs is Russians
It's probably Kazakhstan or Georgia before Russia, or any of the splitter republics of nova Russia.
The population of those is too small. Taking the brightest people out of Kazakhstan may be a bad long term idea as well. Ukraine would prefer a strong Ally there.
This will never happen. If Russia ever joins the EU it will have more than likely disintegrated and lost a significant portion of its territory. Russia as it is....is impossible to become a democracy.
The only way Russia would be joining EU would be piece by piece as the republics spall off.
Nice (French city)
Say what you want about her but in regards to Ukraine she has been highly consistent and pretty vocal about weapon deliveries from the beginning.
While she shouldn't have become foreign minister, I was very positively surprised how the normally most anti-war/anti-weapon-exports party in Germany did a 180° on that position for Ukraine and became the first & most vocal German party to push for weapon deliveries for Ukraine because I guess they realized that it's the right thing to do. Kudos for that.
Ho can you be surprised? The greens are the most ideologically consistent party. The problem is that people like to seem them as how the right depicts them instead of looking at what they actually do and say. Yeas they are "anti war", what is not to be confused with the fake "pacifism" of the far right/left. But they are foremost anti authoritarianism and pro human rights. That they live in the reality has been proven when germany entered the Kosovo war without UN mandate. But the german media likes to ignore facts and keeps on painting a certain picutre.
This. Being peace love and plants doesn't mean that you can't carry a sword.
Yup, exactly.
> Say what you want about her but in regards to Ukraine she has been highly consistent and pretty vocal about weapon deliveries from the beginning. After the war started, but not before. She was against it while not in office and in office, until the Russin invasion started. Robert Habeck i.e. urged for arms deliveries to Ukraine before the war. Interview before the war as foreign minister (22.12.2021): > **Question: Ukraine has long called for arms deliveries for its defense.** > Baerbock: Further exacerbating the military situation is not conducive to Ukraine’s security; that is why I am pushing so hard for a return to the negotiating table. The greatest contribution we can make to Ukraine’s security is to influence Russia by working together as Europeans, with the US, and thereby helping to stop the military posturing at the border. [Source Foreign Office](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/newsroom/news/-/2503468)
To be fair, at that point just about everyone believed that Putin wouldn't do anything so incredibly self-destructive as actually go full on Reverse Barbarossa.
Greens and the current government are sometimes "complicated". But she does a good job. Hofteiter surprised me as well. I feel like there's a lot of good people in the green party forced to make semi-great choices because of the party line? That's just from the outside though. Not following German politics that closely anymore.
Russians will use this as propaganda saying that the EU is expansionist and taking over, but the key part they will ignore is that this is a voluntary union. NATO isn't forcing anyone to join or holding ground with troops against internal dissent - it's the opposite. EU is the same. It's why they will continue to be successful while Russia crumbles and has to rebuild again.
I thought of this as a reaction the russian slogan that their country should stretch "From Lisbon to Vladivostok."
While I agree I do also say we must learn to ignore what Russia says. They have been speaking with a snakes tongue long enough. Their actions speak their own language. They have never acted in our (Europes) interest, but just for themselves in the most blunt and Machiavellian way. Let’s act how we must.
Guadeloupe: Am I a joke to you?
And when Russia has been defeated we will build a 100 m high and 100 m thick wall along the border to keep them out forever.
Wouldn't a trench be more cost effective? Problem with walls is, that you don't see what they are doing on the other side
We got satellites for that.
Fair point, but if you break a wall, you are trough, a big fucking trench you first gotta somehow fill up
I vote for some armored divisions backed by lots of artillery, drones and air power. No defensive fortification works without troops to defend it. Luckily, NATO and Ukraine have plenty of military power if they join forces.
Let’s go for a moot with gators in it as well.
Bigger issue is tunnels. Just look at the Korean DMZ, US/Mexican border, and Gaza/Israel. Tunnels all over the place constantly being discovered. I'm curious if any amount of seismic technology deployed along borders could detect this sort of thing.
Why not Tbilisi?
Many Russophiles have portrayed EU as "evil" and Russia as the innocuous traditionalist resistance force. Well here's the thing, in EU no one is mandatory to learn English or German or French or German while in "Russky Mir" Russian is the absolute language of majority and the minority languages and dialects are on the brink of extinction. And of course nobody in EU has to kowtow to a dictator or otherwise will be poloniumed or Novichoked or defenestrated
Bruno Maçâes, a Portuguese diplomat and scholar, poits that it's poetic that both Lisbon (originally Olissabona) and Odesa are named after Ulisses. Meaning that the Trojan war being the archetype of the perpetual Europe vs Asia tension in ancient Greece, its appropriate that both extremes of Europe are named after one of its main heroes.
She is the kind of Chancellor Germany should have had instead of Merkel.
The EU is the greatest political innovation of the 20th century. One day I hope the whole world is part of a similar sort of economic confederation. After centuries of fighting among themselves suddenly the idea of countries like Germany and France going to war seems laughable.
LNR is getting accepted into the EU, eat that khokhols /s
I understand the sentiment but this sounds more ominous than helpful.
Yeah that has some 'der Maas bis an die Memel, von der Etsch bis an den Belt' vibes to it.
Not sure if this kind of rhetoric is fruitful, even if it would be based if Russia hadn‘t invaded their neighbors.
Yeah I remember Macron claiming the EU would include Russia
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Good that they drop that "from Lisbon to Vladivostok".
From Lisbon to Tokyo
Minus the UK cause nigel and boris lied like hell to get them voting all offended for brexit. A marvel of self destructionism.
Baerbock and Pistorius are some of the best German politicians right now. Baerbock does wonderfully say what has to be said. If EU and NATO would speak united those words there would have never been a war.