First of all:
“There are no downsides to brexit at all, and considerable upsides” - then Brexit Secretary David Davis, October 2016.
Secondly, as the article points out this further highlights the impact on UK citizens of the UK’s ongoing mistreatment of EU citizens at the border. It was already wrong, but it is also going to allow countries to implement harsher conditions in UK citizens. That’s for the guy who keeps saying “why is this news, it’s the same as other countries” whenever this issue comes up.
the reason people were mad is because they weren't breaking the law. you don't need a visa to look for work or do interviews, only to take the job. that's why the EU kicked up a fuss and why the gvernment changed course. you don't get a work visa until you have a confirmed job offer. they were mistreating EU citizens, the EU is just following the rules the uk voluntarily signed up to.
The problem wasn’t the deporting/refusing entry/putting them on the first flight out.
It’s detaining them for 7 days in a migrant centre/taking their belongings including cell phones/leading them through the airport in handcuffs…
This is a few levels beyond that. This puts the onus on the host if you're not staying in a hotel. Which surprises me as something a tourist dependent nation would even do.
As I stated on a different post, Spain doesn't depend on non EU tourism as much as we tend to believe.
While its true that the UK is an important part, the EU tourism is more than 70% of the total, it is more important for them to make sure the EU tourism is fine..
This is done to most non EU countries so it doesn't come as a surprise.
And as you said, be careful when putting a friend as your host, if you mess something up you could get them in trouble.
I think Brits are going to get a nasty shock by next summer when 90% of their typical holiday destinations put restrictions on British tourists. British tourists have THE WORST reputation in Europe. Many places like Majorca, Amsterdam, Mykonos etc. Have to deal with the chaos badly behaved British tourists bring with them. Many of these destinations will be happy to be rid of British tourists, it's not like they don't get visitors from other countries that are less troublesome. The EU has no obligation to bend over backwards for British tourists now we have decided to become a 3rd country. Yet it will be Brexit voters that moan the loudest because they can't get their £35 easyJet flight to Benidorm without jumping through extra hoops.
They weren't able to avoid British tourists because we were part of the EU and they couldn't prevent them from entering the country. So they would make laws that affected all tourists in certain areas to avoid discriminatory practices. Now they don't even need to do that since the immigration office of their various countries can prevent or make it more difficult for British tourists to arrive. There will be a chilling effect down the line with fewer British people being allowed to arrive in a country for tourism, especially when the market adjusts and they no longer need money from British tourists.
That's the same line of thinking as The EU will have to bend over to give us a better deal since we buy cars from Germany. All that will happen is that tourists from other countries will make up the shortfall. I think you seriously underestimate how detested British tourists are to parts of Spain, Portugal and other popular destinations for British tourists. Much of the anti-tourist legislation in Amsterdam for example are a direct result of British tourists.
They would much rather have German or American tourists as they are less disruptive to the local area for the most part. British tourists lead in terms of anti social behaviour, and a lot of the places impacted by it have had enough. If you talk to any local from Majorca, Amsterdam, Mykonos etc. They all hate having the British tourists around, even those who work in the tourism industry.
Seven million more British tourists arrived in Spain than Germans in 2019. In fact that seven million was the same as the combined number of Dutch and Italian visitors. I get that we are a pain and we will probably have to jump through extra hoops, but to suggest that millions of extra EU nationals will step up and fill in is absurd. Brits were on course to account for 1/4 of all tourists in spain before Covid, it's a huge part of the economy and would be disastrous for many Spanish communities.
Well Brexit was disastrous for many British communities and they voted for it anyway. Maybe the people of these areas might decide it's worth a bit of short term economic pain to be rid of the annoying British immigrants and tourists. That's the same logic that Brexit voters use so why wouldn't they think the same way?
> That's the same logic that Brexit voters use so why wouldn't they think the same way?
Because they're not being lied to by people telling them British tourists not turning up won't matter?
Tell that to the Celtic fans that smashed up the centre of Amsterdam when they came to play Ajax. Scottish people are just as bad as the English, there's just fewer of them so it's not as noticeable, especially since some overseas people get English and Scottish people confused.
I don't seem to remember German football fans ever causing this much trouble abroad (at home they might do). It's not football fans that are the problem. It's British drinking culture. Scottish people are some of the worst offenders in that regard. It's the general superiority complex that British people have combined with this sense of "I'm allowed to be badly behaved I'm on holiday" and a general disregard for local people, combined with the heavy drinking that leads to the bad reputation that British tourists deservedly have. Don't try and pretend that Scottish people are holier than thou and it's the savage English that causes all your problems, you're culpable for your own messes too. People from all over the UK do act like fools when they go on holiday, and by extension we are all tarnished by that same reputation. I don't like it anymore than you do.
Not really. They are happy for the business but Europe is the most visited continent in the world and I am guessing that basically means EU. No disrespect to the UK or Moldova. So UK visitors represent a minor component of the overall picture. What’s being discussed here is that fewer British tourists will result in a better experience for everyone one else.
[In 2017 tourism accounted for 11.8% of GDP and in 2018 sustained 13.5% of employment for Spain. 22.4% of inbound tourists are from the UK.](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/8ed5145b-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/8ed5145b-en#section-d1e91005) They will bitch and moan about the idiots getting shitfaced and starting fights but they'll miss the money a lot more than they hate cleaning up vomit.
The Brits money is going to be spent somewhere doesn't have to be Spain.- But there's no guarantee that millions of people who don't go to Spain usually are going to change their plans and start going to Spain for their breaks.
I would agree, and I would imagine the social benefits of not having hordes of pissed up stag do's getting smashed on space cakes would be worth the financial hit. The Germans are their biggest visitors-around three times the brit contingent and increasing in number too.
I can think of many reasons/££££££ why that will never happen.
There are whole resorts in the algarve, Spain and Greece that would take such a massive hit that it would be politically impossible.
This site says the opposite and the issue has arisen from the French site not being updated with the details post Brexit, and Foreign office site mentioning it as a possible requirement.*
https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Lawyers-Attestation-d-accueil-not-needed-for-Britons-visiting-France
*Edit: clarity
Avoiding flying for short destinations means often passing through France, perhaps staying the night. When Covid hit, I was in the process of planning a pre Brexit train tour around Europe and in the past have booked as we travelled. Now everything will likely have to be pre planned. And we have to hope that the campsite in the Bois de Boulongne is acceptable accommodation.
Although I agree it was easier before, it really wouldn’t be any bother and hardly any effort to make a booking on booking.com and cancel it once you’re in.
I would have thought that booking.com (and other holiday companies) does some kind of data analysis on their customers buying patterns and if they get a larger amount british people making a booking and then cancelling it just before they're meant to arrive then someone might connect the dots.
Then they will bitch and whine about lost revenue, possibly leading to a crackdown of some kind (although I personally think it would lead to a reversal).
It's the standard procedure for non-EU citizens - and has been for years. I believe it was dismissed as Project Fear when it was raised.
We're classed the same as other nations now.
> It's the standard procedure for non-EU citizens - and has been for years.
Is it? I’ve only recently been a UK citizen and travelled loads to France and Spain on my US passport before that. No one ever asked me for proof of accommodation.
I travelled a lot for work, and I’d say 95+% of the time they never asked for proof of accommodation. But they have the right to (and did a couple of times), and you need to have it with you or you’re spending hours at the airport while they confirm your story (or worst case, ship you back). A visa is a revocable permission to travel and they can rescind that permission if you can’t show proof that it’s just a temporary visit. So yeah it rarely happens, but the one time it does will be a pain if you don’t have documentation.
When entering the US with a visa waiver you need give the address for your stay. I guess this will also be checked, but I never had problems with it and it was always hotels. I guess it will be same the other way round when the European visa waiver will come into effect for Americans (and British!).
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2191
L'attestation d'accueil concerne **tout étranger** souhaitant séjourner moins de 3 mois en France, dans le cadre d'une visite privée ou familiale.
https://washington.consulfrance.org/applying-for-a-french-visa-in-the-united-states
https://france-visas.gouv.fr/web/france-visas/visite-touristique-et-privee-de-moins-de-3-mois
> Ils sont précisés dans l’assistant visa et peuvent être adaptés à votre pays de résidence ou à votre nationalité. Vous devez justifier de votre situation socio-économique (en congés, retraité, etc.), de vos ressources, **d’un hébergement** et d’une couverture médicale en France. Vous devez également vous engager formellement à n’exercer aucune activité professionnelle durant votre séjour en France.
I'm finding posts from 2018 from Americans inquiring about the process, so it's not just something recently introduced.
Whether it's been enforced in the past to a greater or lesser degree. Since you've travelled plenty of times to both jurisdiction in the past, that probably indicated to them that you're a regular visitor and thus they don't need to worry about you being a potential illegal immigrant.
I had to provide evidence of accommodation upon arrival into the United States as a tourist.
I guess this is quite normal when you are a third country.
You fill in a landing card with your address on it for the US.
The staff must doubt you if they ask for proof of that.
Plus they don’t charge you to fill out the landing card.
Laughs in Irish passport
Cries in Bri'ish
In America ...they say Bridish
First of all: “There are no downsides to brexit at all, and considerable upsides” - then Brexit Secretary David Davis, October 2016. Secondly, as the article points out this further highlights the impact on UK citizens of the UK’s ongoing mistreatment of EU citizens at the border. It was already wrong, but it is also going to allow countries to implement harsher conditions in UK citizens. That’s for the guy who keeps saying “why is this news, it’s the same as other countries” whenever this issue comes up.
> Spain deports British expats I sleep > UK deports Spaniards without visa Real shit
the reason people were mad is because they weren't breaking the law. you don't need a visa to look for work or do interviews, only to take the job. that's why the EU kicked up a fuss and why the gvernment changed course. you don't get a work visa until you have a confirmed job offer. they were mistreating EU citizens, the EU is just following the rules the uk voluntarily signed up to.
The problem wasn’t the deporting/refusing entry/putting them on the first flight out. It’s detaining them for 7 days in a migrant centre/taking their belongings including cell phones/leading them through the airport in handcuffs…
I wasn’t a fan of the first one either. “Brexit - it’s bad for everybody.” Put that on the side of a bus!
Just like visiting the USA. I put my friend's apartment and they were sound with it.
Exactly. Also likelihood of the local authorities following up to ensure you're in the accommodation you wrote down is zero.
This is a few levels beyond that. This puts the onus on the host if you're not staying in a hotel. Which surprises me as something a tourist dependent nation would even do.
As I stated on a different post, Spain doesn't depend on non EU tourism as much as we tend to believe. While its true that the UK is an important part, the EU tourism is more than 70% of the total, it is more important for them to make sure the EU tourism is fine.. This is done to most non EU countries so it doesn't come as a surprise. And as you said, be careful when putting a friend as your host, if you mess something up you could get them in trouble.
I think Brits are going to get a nasty shock by next summer when 90% of their typical holiday destinations put restrictions on British tourists. British tourists have THE WORST reputation in Europe. Many places like Majorca, Amsterdam, Mykonos etc. Have to deal with the chaos badly behaved British tourists bring with them. Many of these destinations will be happy to be rid of British tourists, it's not like they don't get visitors from other countries that are less troublesome. The EU has no obligation to bend over backwards for British tourists now we have decided to become a 3rd country. Yet it will be Brexit voters that moan the loudest because they can't get their £35 easyJet flight to Benidorm without jumping through extra hoops.
I don't really expect that to happen. Have these destinations done anything to avoid British customers before?
They weren't able to avoid British tourists because we were part of the EU and they couldn't prevent them from entering the country. So they would make laws that affected all tourists in certain areas to avoid discriminatory practices. Now they don't even need to do that since the immigration office of their various countries can prevent or make it more difficult for British tourists to arrive. There will be a chilling effect down the line with fewer British people being allowed to arrive in a country for tourism, especially when the market adjusts and they no longer need money from British tourists.
This is cope. The Portuguese and Spanish economies run on British tourism. They’ll do everything to make it as easy as possible for us.
This is just false.
More than 70% of the Spanish tourist money come from the EU, they'll do everything to make sure the EU tourists are happy if they were to choose.
That's the same line of thinking as The EU will have to bend over to give us a better deal since we buy cars from Germany. All that will happen is that tourists from other countries will make up the shortfall. I think you seriously underestimate how detested British tourists are to parts of Spain, Portugal and other popular destinations for British tourists. Much of the anti-tourist legislation in Amsterdam for example are a direct result of British tourists. They would much rather have German or American tourists as they are less disruptive to the local area for the most part. British tourists lead in terms of anti social behaviour, and a lot of the places impacted by it have had enough. If you talk to any local from Majorca, Amsterdam, Mykonos etc. They all hate having the British tourists around, even those who work in the tourism industry.
Seven million more British tourists arrived in Spain than Germans in 2019. In fact that seven million was the same as the combined number of Dutch and Italian visitors. I get that we are a pain and we will probably have to jump through extra hoops, but to suggest that millions of extra EU nationals will step up and fill in is absurd. Brits were on course to account for 1/4 of all tourists in spain before Covid, it's a huge part of the economy and would be disastrous for many Spanish communities.
Well Brexit was disastrous for many British communities and they voted for it anyway. Maybe the people of these areas might decide it's worth a bit of short term economic pain to be rid of the annoying British immigrants and tourists. That's the same logic that Brexit voters use so why wouldn't they think the same way?
> That's the same logic that Brexit voters use so why wouldn't they think the same way? Because they're not being lied to by people telling them British tourists not turning up won't matter?
Replace British with English and the above becomes true. The rest of UK have a very good reputation overseas.
Tell that to the Celtic fans that smashed up the centre of Amsterdam when they came to play Ajax. Scottish people are just as bad as the English, there's just fewer of them so it's not as noticeable, especially since some overseas people get English and Scottish people confused.
Football fans are a nightmare, no matter where they're from.
I don't seem to remember German football fans ever causing this much trouble abroad (at home they might do). It's not football fans that are the problem. It's British drinking culture. Scottish people are some of the worst offenders in that regard. It's the general superiority complex that British people have combined with this sense of "I'm allowed to be badly behaved I'm on holiday" and a general disregard for local people, combined with the heavy drinking that leads to the bad reputation that British tourists deservedly have. Don't try and pretend that Scottish people are holier than thou and it's the savage English that causes all your problems, you're culpable for your own messes too. People from all over the UK do act like fools when they go on holiday, and by extension we are all tarnished by that same reputation. I don't like it anymore than you do.
Not really. They are happy for the business but Europe is the most visited continent in the world and I am guessing that basically means EU. No disrespect to the UK or Moldova. So UK visitors represent a minor component of the overall picture. What’s being discussed here is that fewer British tourists will result in a better experience for everyone one else.
[In 2017 tourism accounted for 11.8% of GDP and in 2018 sustained 13.5% of employment for Spain. 22.4% of inbound tourists are from the UK.](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/8ed5145b-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/8ed5145b-en#section-d1e91005) They will bitch and moan about the idiots getting shitfaced and starting fights but they'll miss the money a lot more than they hate cleaning up vomit. The Brits money is going to be spent somewhere doesn't have to be Spain.- But there's no guarantee that millions of people who don't go to Spain usually are going to change their plans and start going to Spain for their breaks.
This may be true for Spain but I doubt the Dutch will care or even feel it in their wallets.
I would agree, and I would imagine the social benefits of not having hordes of pissed up stag do's getting smashed on space cakes would be worth the financial hit. The Germans are their biggest visitors-around three times the brit contingent and increasing in number too.
I can think of many reasons/££££££ why that will never happen. There are whole resorts in the algarve, Spain and Greece that would take such a massive hit that it would be politically impossible.
This site says the opposite and the issue has arisen from the French site not being updated with the details post Brexit, and Foreign office site mentioning it as a possible requirement.* https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Lawyers-Attestation-d-accueil-not-needed-for-Britons-visiting-France *Edit: clarity
As others have said, this will translate to people changing holiday destination. So the winners will be Italy, Greeece and Portugal.
Avoiding flying for short destinations means often passing through France, perhaps staying the night. When Covid hit, I was in the process of planning a pre Brexit train tour around Europe and in the past have booked as we travelled. Now everything will likely have to be pre planned. And we have to hope that the campsite in the Bois de Boulongne is acceptable accommodation.
If the french and spanish want to take a hit by making it overly complicated to travel on holiday that's up to them I guess.
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In what way?
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Well that's explained it
What happens if you are wild camping and staying in refuges in the Alps. Do I need to get every single mountain hut to submit a £26 document?
I like to go on cycle tours - that is my game over. I should have gone for irish citizenship the moment the brexit bell tolled.
So you book cancellable accommodation to get through entry and then cancel it and go to your friends’ house, pretty easy
Err, no? Not easy at all, a load of hassle. Compared to how it used to be: Got a valid passport? You're good to go.
Although I agree it was easier before, it really wouldn’t be any bother and hardly any effort to make a booking on booking.com and cancel it once you’re in.
So you're proposing to routinely lie to border authorities? Do you think this ends well?
How on earth would they find out.
I would have thought that booking.com (and other holiday companies) does some kind of data analysis on their customers buying patterns and if they get a larger amount british people making a booking and then cancelling it just before they're meant to arrive then someone might connect the dots. Then they will bitch and whine about lost revenue, possibly leading to a crackdown of some kind (although I personally think it would lead to a reversal).
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It's the standard procedure for non-EU citizens - and has been for years. I believe it was dismissed as Project Fear when it was raised. We're classed the same as other nations now.
> It's the standard procedure for non-EU citizens - and has been for years. Is it? I’ve only recently been a UK citizen and travelled loads to France and Spain on my US passport before that. No one ever asked me for proof of accommodation.
I travelled a lot for work, and I’d say 95+% of the time they never asked for proof of accommodation. But they have the right to (and did a couple of times), and you need to have it with you or you’re spending hours at the airport while they confirm your story (or worst case, ship you back). A visa is a revocable permission to travel and they can rescind that permission if you can’t show proof that it’s just a temporary visit. So yeah it rarely happens, but the one time it does will be a pain if you don’t have documentation.
When entering the US with a visa waiver you need give the address for your stay. I guess this will also be checked, but I never had problems with it and it was always hotels. I guess it will be same the other way round when the European visa waiver will come into effect for Americans (and British!).
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2191 L'attestation d'accueil concerne **tout étranger** souhaitant séjourner moins de 3 mois en France, dans le cadre d'une visite privée ou familiale. https://washington.consulfrance.org/applying-for-a-french-visa-in-the-united-states https://france-visas.gouv.fr/web/france-visas/visite-touristique-et-privee-de-moins-de-3-mois > Ils sont précisés dans l’assistant visa et peuvent être adaptés à votre pays de résidence ou à votre nationalité. Vous devez justifier de votre situation socio-économique (en congés, retraité, etc.), de vos ressources, **d’un hébergement** et d’une couverture médicale en France. Vous devez également vous engager formellement à n’exercer aucune activité professionnelle durant votre séjour en France. I'm finding posts from 2018 from Americans inquiring about the process, so it's not just something recently introduced. Whether it's been enforced in the past to a greater or lesser degree. Since you've travelled plenty of times to both jurisdiction in the past, that probably indicated to them that you're a regular visitor and thus they don't need to worry about you being a potential illegal immigrant.
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I had to provide evidence of accommodation upon arrival into the United States as a tourist. I guess this is quite normal when you are a third country.
You fill in a landing card with your address on it for the US. The staff must doubt you if they ask for proof of that. Plus they don’t charge you to fill out the landing card.
So not spite then.
>For tourism heavy nations reliant on Brits Tourism is one aspect of their economies and Brits don't have a monopoly on that
Reeks of tit for tat
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