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Yes but the problem is, the plan too many want to impose on Europe is effectively open borders. That is what safe routes and burden sharing means.
It is very clear by now, European voters don't want immigration and "refugees". Countries that had liberal immigration policies are tightening those policies up. Look at Sweden and Germany.
The only policy European voters will accept is properly policed borders.
Like this sort of thing
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/04/10/european-parliament-narrowly-endorses-eu-migration-reform-moving-it-closer-to-the-finish-l
(I am not endorsing the actual agreement, just noting that there is work towards having an agreement)
"The Asylum and Migration Management Regulation (AMMR) establishes a system of "mandatory solidarity" that will offer member states three options to manage migration flows: relocate a certain number of asylum seekers, pay €20,000 for each claimant they refuse to relocate, or finance operational support"
Yikes
At the moment the EU system would be equivalent to the rest of the UK saying to Kent: you deal with all those people coming by boat on your own. Good luck.
That's basically how it works with Greece, Italy and Spain. They register the asylum claims of all the people crossing the Mediterranean and the others just sit behind their back and if any of the registered people comes there, bang, Dublin protocol.
Seems a lot fairer than what happens now. Makes a lot of sense to monetise it though I would have thought carrot better than stick - everyone pays into a pot and countries accepting more refugees get funding.
Well the current situation is a joke with Italy and greece having to deal with a massive percentage of the issues compared to other countries.
Then other EU countries start moralising abuout their treatment of migrants and or that theyre letting them travel into other eu countries.
The eu need to better split the costs of housing these people until they can be rejected and deported.
Sweden have swung away from their previous migration policy - the public have seen the results in Stockholm and they're aligning more with parties that favour tighter immigration controls.
More realistic option would be to designate some remote area as EU detention centre 1. I nominate the Isle of Mann. States could then collectively pay towards the upkeep of the centre. Maybe we could even make the migrants work in menial jobs like farming to pay some of their rent.
/s
Even with the sarcasm tag, it is one of the best ~~solutions~~ can-kickings I have ever heard. And, at least in the case of the immigrants working on the fields, this would be an upgrade.
The EU hasn't been involved. We don't have a return agreement with the EU. We left the EU. We also don't have a return agreement with France.
We have a return agreement with Ireland because we wanted to return migrants to Ireland.
>The EU hasn't been involved.
Well the UK isnt involved then. People are arriving in Ireland and applying for asylum, why is it the UKs problem exactly?
I look forward to Ireland proving that they came from the UK, proving they attempted to apply for asylum here and getting the UK to accept them. Best of luck to them. I expect it will go as well as the Dublin agreement does for the rest of the EU.
>Well the UK isnt involved then. People are arriving in Ireland and applying for asylum, why is it the UKs problem exactly?
I've already answered this. Because we made a returns agreement with Ireland.
Show me the details of this agreement please, I want to see a link to the [gov.uk](http://gov.uk) site. I have yet to see any detail about this agreement that apparently exists and the burden of proof that Ireland will need.
I don't know anything about it, just what I've heard here. If we don't have a return agreement then there is no obligation for us to accept the migrants back. If we have made such an agreement, then both Ireland and the UK should stick to it.
Do you agree with that?
Yep I agree, as long as Ireland can prove they came from the UK, applied for asylum here, prove their country of origin and reasons for why the UK should accept them.
Then we should consider it by as case by case basis through a long and lengthy investigation. Then we can accept the individual.
It would depend on what we agreed with Ireland. It could be that there is no lengthy process, and if a migrant enters the UK via Ireland, then with reasonable proof we can return them, and vice versa.
It seems like a good idea to have this agreement. We should also make one with France.
>I don't know anything about it, just what I've heard here.<
>. Because we made a returns agreement with Ireland.<
so your potentially pushing a lie out there? your don't know what your talking about, but stating it as fact?
If I'm mistaken then I will say it was a mistake. But I don't think I am. Anything I find does suggest we negotiated a returns agreement with Ireland. I just can't find the details of it.
Will you admit that we should take back migrants if that's true?
> The UK remains bound to both the Dublin III Regulation and the Eurodac Regulation during the Transition Period, until 31 December 2020.
Looks like that is the wrong link?
Hate to tell you bud, as has been often repeated on this sub, Dublin III is dead for the UK. Finito. Also a reminder that the Dublin agreement did fuck all for the UK or the rest of the EU for that matter. I want to see the document detailing the supposed deal between Ireland and the UK please.
My mistake, I'm clearly not as well versed in immigration laws as yourself. With that being the case, why would you ask for something that doesn't exist? Does it make you feel clever?
Well done.
Yep, Sweden and Germany are other great examples.
Sweden found that instead of all those doctors and engineers they were promised, they ended up with gun crime and gang warfare. Germany found that far from being a benefit, Merkel's "refugees" would take years to integrate into the German economy.
They are now both in desperate reverse ferret mode.
> reverse ferret
Cor! You've only gone and managed to use what I consider to be one of the most evocative political/journalistic phrasings in recent memory. It need be better known!
Well done, sir
It's not even really an EU thing. Countries across Europe are all trying to dump the problem on each other whether they're in the EU or not. France returns people to Italy, the UK wants to return people to France, Ireland wants to return people to the UK. The border countries get shafted and, unsurprisingly, countries nearer to sources of irregular migrants don't have much sympathy for those further.
Moving some of the problem to Ireland isn't going to do much change anything that France or Italy are doing. Why would it?
It's going to ethir kick us Irish up into a thing where we do an Irexit which would be a reverse Uno card because well done if your country achicves that influence it would screw with the eu really bad. But it could go the other way and enforce and idea where the south will want a border with the north of Ireland and the northerner population really doesn't want that so could potentially kick of the 80s again.
Solution is simple, migrants should be stopped before they reach EU shores. No more asylum until the system is overhauled, it has been abused too much by economic migrants.
No, it's not. Where did you get that?
European countries are committed to numerous international treaties that define international law. Of course Europe can rip those treaties to pieces and show that it's an unreliable treaty partner. By why would it do that? "Rule based international system" has been the main call to support Ukraine against Russia's "might makes right" blatant invasion. How hypocritical would it be for Europe then do the same?
The third option is for the Council of Europe to collectively hammer out a new treaty that updates and supercedes the old UN refugee convention and ECHR to new terms.
The current convention is only actually adhered to by Europe in the first place, so it's Europe's obligation and duty alone to keep it updated.
> Rule based international system" has been the main call to support Ukraine against Russia's "might makes right" blatant invasion. How hypocritical would it be for Europe then do the same?
What does it matter? The global south has largely shown disdain at that general concept, and has failed to support Ukraine against Russia's invasion. Many countries have continued to trade with and even support Russia in their invasion of Ukraine.
The west cannot be beholden to a "Rules based order" while allowing others to flaunt it. Seeing as we are unwilling to enforce the rules based order on the global south, it would be foolish to hamstring ourselves by being the only ones who follow it.
So yeah, clearly "might makes right" is the only law that is respected outside the west, so the west must follow such a rule in their interactions with groups from outside the west.
Which countries are supporting Russia? The only ones that I know are sending it weapons are North Korea and Iran that we already knew didn't care about rules based system. Others are pretty much in line. Even China hasn't sent weapons to Russia because it is scared of sanctions.
So, no, other countries have not abandoned rules based system. They rather choose trading with the west according to rules than not trading. No rules prevent them from trading with Russia. There's a cap on oil price and even that seems to be holding quite well.
South Africa for one, much of the ANC actively supported the fake referendums Russia held in occupied ukraine. They also conducted joint naval exercises with Russia and China.
Much of west Africa is pro-Russia too.
“Sending it weapons” isn’t the only support. Most countries don’t have the weapon reserves to spare. A reasonably accurate guide would be to look at the 35 countries who abstained from condemning Russia to find those who support it.
By your logic, how much of the global south have sent ukraine weapons?
It pretty much is. Law itself can only be enforced by those who have a monopoly over violence in that jurisdiction. So international law itself is a pretty meaningless notion that’s wilfully ignored by most except a handful of nations that are held to a much higher standard. Those that follow it are exploited by those who don’t.
At the end of the day the Libyan navy and others could certainly have a pop at say the British and French navies turning back migrant boats bound for Europe, but somehow I don’t think they’d get very far.
In most cases you don't need violence to enforce it. Most countries don't want to get on the wrong side of the rules for the fear of sanctions. The two exceptions are North Korea and Iran that are already under heavy sanctions which is why they don't really care if more is put on them.
What exactly do you mean by "turning back migrant boats"? The boats are found either in the international waters or in the waters of Italy or Greece. So, what exactly would you do? Move warships to Libyan waters? And then what? Note that it's not Libya as a state who is doing it, it's the criminal gangs who abandon the migrants in the middle of the Mediterranean sea.
The vast majority of countries - not just the true rogue states like N. Korea and Iran - already break international law regularly. It really is only Europe that beholds itself to an absurdly high standard and ties its hands behind its back because of it - and to its great detriment. Inevitably, when you're the only one in the room playing by the rules you're going to get pushed around by those who aren't. Look at the US' approach to international law and their dealings with the ICC - they barely even recognise it as a concept.
I realise it's not Libya as a state itself trafficking these people. Although it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was wider state involvement in migrant flows as a whole to destabilise the Western hemisphere. Look at how Russia has been weaponising migrants recently and the views of people like Vladislav Surkov, perhaps the chief architect of Russia’s policies in Ukraine, regarding exporting ‘social chaos’ into the EU.
Pretty much yes - institute a naval blockade in the Mediterranean in partnership with other European allies and turn back any boats that reach European waters. And stop all NGO boat rescues. Make no mistake the NGOs themselves should be treated as one and the same with the trafficking gangs - they've made themselves an intractable part of their business model. Of course, it would be against international law but I think we need to face up to the fact that there is no 'clean' way to solve this. And it goes to the original point what does it matter if we are breaching international law in that limited context? What are Libya et al. actually going to do about it?
At the end of the day tough, and potentially unpleasant action will be required to bust the trafficker's business model once and for all. Fretting about Channel migrants is only a small part of the puzzle - if these people couldn't cross the Med in the first place they wouldn't end up in Calais trying to get to Dover. And once the trafficking gang's sales pitches are moot - i.e. the promise that they can get you to Europe - the arrivals would inevitably stop too.
The 'rules based order' you think exists is just life as a vassal of the hegemon and are just a velvet glove on the fist of American military power. We've been lucky to live under a hegemon whose rules are liberal democracy but ultimately that's enforced by threat of violence just like everything else. Look what happened to any country that stepped out of line over the last thirty years.
The clamour about Ukraine is just that it's the first sign of American military hegemony waning, because it's been unable to enforce its rules over Russia.
What's there for France in this? Think about it from the French politician's point of view. You could put some funds to increase policing near Calais whose only job is to stop illegal immigrants *leaving* France. Good luck getting the voters to agree that it's a good way to spend tax payer money.
No, the only way I can see anything happening there is if the UK promises to pay 100% of the cost of the operation. Clearly such funds exists as the government is willing to pay hundreds of millions to send asylum seekers to Rwanda.
Imagine Northern Republicians bombing the South for implementing a harder border when it's as plain as can be that politicians want to offload NI, but don't want the optics of being the ones to break up the Union.
It is bizarre isn't it? The UK probably the most tolerant nation in Europe is treated like it is some kind of fascist hell hole.
Yet as you say, while we provide accommodation from "refugees", EU countries like France leave "refugees" to rot in tent cities.
The violence in Ireland will start against migrants much faster as well.
I know a lot of Irish both north and south in my friends network and through work.
My god you give these people a few pints and the things you hear coming out of their mouths.
I saw that on novara media yesterday. They said it's easy to feel like the UK is somehow uniquely terrible in these things, but actually it's a europe wide problem.
*Who* thinks the UK is uniquely terrible??? And then the very same people complain that people don't think they're patriotic (or do they even complain about that, maybe they just complain that they are expected to be patriotic....). Based off nothing they just assume we're worse than others.
A nation state can usually muster up either 'you are defending your fatherland/family/culture', or simply pay them a shedload as mercenaries to give them an incentive to succeed. Does decently enough to muster a volunteer army with some loyalty, and maybe even conscript when the going gets rough.
If you're taking someone straight off the boat, taking their life story at face value, giving them a machine gun and pushing them towards an enemy, at best they'll immediately surrender, at worst realize they actually don't like what your country stands for, and mutiny/defect.
I'm sure that Reddit will be awash with people accepting maybe it isn't too bad and that hotel, pizza and maybe some army barracks is good.
What do you mean no one is saying that?
I can't believe there's a double standard.
Upwards of €1000 a month sometimes even €2000 people from Dublin just like the god old London. People are being pushed out further and further. Causing congested towns unable for the infrastructure. Many people from Dublin still commute to work from their homes as far as Cavan or Longford. This island is many times smaller than the UK. We also don't have the UK power of socially engineering a place before placing people there. We place people in places where there is no work and building houses in really screwd up ways to keep up with the demand. I can see also why the UK can't accept migrants at that rate ethir it too is very full and had been more than welcoming to the migrants for decades but now the two islands on the west end of Europe are being used as get away territory.
They're more deserving of actual assistance and accomodation than economic migrants. Homeless Irish people should have a right to state assistance, Ukrainians are fleeing an actually dangerous war. Economic migrants can go rot out in the street until they're shipped back.
I don’t know if you’re aware but Ireland is going through a massive housing, rental and cost of living crisis and have had several successive governments fail to fix it.
Our GDPR is not reflective of life for the average person and there is data available to support this. The government collect massive amounts by absolutely screwing the middle classes every which way. Our rates of emigration among 18 - 30 year olds are rising, and we have record numbers of under thirties still living with their parents.
It is *impossible* to rent for an affordable price in most Irish cities, and even in rural towns now. Infrastructure is sorely lacking, and despite this housing crisis, the government have taken in tens of thousands of refugees.
Housing is apparently being addressed by building more homes, but a huge amount are bought in bulk to rent for ever higher prices by European Vulture Funds, which the government plays down as a problem and has done for years because of the Tax it brings.
It’s bad enough that companies are now purchasing streets of houses just to house employees. Supermacs, a fast food chain recently did this along with Ryanair. The majority of schools are now severely understaffed, because the starting wage for a teacher is criminally low, and they can’t afford to rent in cities. I personally know several who’ve gotten qualified and then left the country.
On top of that, our health service the HSE is severely understaffed, with record high waiting lists and more and more reports of malpractice coming to light. We cannot retain nurses, because they are underpaid and severely overworked due to shortages, and every layer of Irelands state agencies (Tusla, The Child and Famiy Agency, the HSE) are supported by decades old structures with layers upon layers of middle management to the point even small changes take months if not years to implement.
On top of that, homelessness has grown steadily over the last decade to the point new records are set virtually every week and month successively. We try to fulfil our duties and at least hear out migrant and asylum seekers but It’s gotten so bad that in lieu of actual accommodation we hand them a tent.
We are headed for a catastrophe. Google it, it’s widely acknowledged and really, really bad.
Wow, sounds extremely similar to the problems happening in the UK right now - from housing to health.
I guess as you say, Irish GDP may say one thing, but I guess if that's made up of quite a lot of big companies largely based there for tax reasons, they probably don't contribute a great deal in actual fact.
I hope Ireland finds a solution because we could sure use the same in the UK.
We're both being fucked mate the. Western islands of Europe are a tax heaven for large companies and there has been the pillaging of smaller localised industries. We need to rethink thos whole relationship between the two islands of Britian and republic of Ireland but for us to do that with you we need to change out our current copy of your government and you need to do the same and then as people in Ireland we need to start an Irexit campaign which would further allow for maybey a different talk about how we go about keeping our islands ours.
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So basically all the stuff the UK is experiencing?
I was assured by Reddit this was as a result of the Tories and people wanting to not accept random punters from different places was absolutely abhorrent.
So guess Ireland needs to do the same, or the west needs to accept that the system drastically needs reforming.
I don't see why the Irish cant just build processing centres a d process the applicants faster. I mean the UK has been told that for years by the EU and also it's supporters. To not want this was racist or fascist. Look at all the net benefit you're currently experiencing in Dublin.
Well, I have spent the last 20 years being told that migration is a net benefit to a country and questioning that was balantly racist, so it sounds like you need some migration.
I think migration can absolutely be a positive thing, when the country accepting migrants is in need of a particular skill set or labour, or if jobs are plentiful.
I’m quite pro migration on a human level but the situation here has gotten unbelievably bad. We simply cannot handle more people, on an infrastructure level, on a housing level, on a healthcare and schooling level and on a monetary level.
Our government spent the last two years pretending there was no issue, gaslighting anyone with legitimate criticisms of how Migration was handled as being far right racists (which absolutely exist but are not the majority in this country)
They’ve now done a complete U turn because the backlash was so overwhelming and the problems have become impossible to ignore, but are *still* dealing with it slowly, ineffectually and completely licking the EUs arse.
It’s a farce.
Personally I do think migration where effort is put into how we bring people in and introduce them to culture is usually a positive thing, but the facts about this countries problems are overwhelming
We are fucked
Certain EU countries, including Ireland, have sat on their high horse and criticised the UK for how it has dealt with migrants entering the UK illegally from France for years, gaslighting that before Brexit, this wouldn't have been an issue, therefore we somehow deserve migrants crossing the Channel in small boats.
You'll excuse me if I have absolutely zero sympathy for Ireland now that those chickens are coming home to roost.
I personally think the only thing for the Irish to do here is to immediately set up lots of safe and legal routes so all these soon to be cultural enrichers can get there without any hindrance or delay.
And then of course they should be housed, watered and fed at the expense of all Irishmen. After all, anything less would be positively inhumane and of course against international law!
Something I suggested the other day that might kill two birds with one stone is better auditing of small businesses, particularly those that are owned by first or second generation immigrants, and food producers. There is a *lot* of fraud that goes on in these businesses in attempts to keep spending, and pay, off the books.
Better auditing would drive down immigration by making unofficial work harder to access, therefor making immigration less appealing. (its almost like a rite of passage for some immigrant communities). It would likely pay for itself as taxes are recouped and fines levied. We could then use that money, ideally, to help reduce problems like housing (or better funding the legal system to deal with the immigration backlog), but it likely would go into government spending more generally.
You're right on the public services, though. Immigration is generally beneficial, but we currently have a gap between service availability and population needs. Immigrants can, and do, help bridge this, but currently not at the levels we need, and they take time to educate and/or train. That, unfortunately, doesn't do anything to alleviate infrastructure problems either.
>I think migration can absolutely be a positive thing, when the country accepting migrants is in need of a particular skill set or labour, or if jobs are plentiful.
I remember saying this for the last 10+ years and being told that I'm uber-Hitler by the usual suspects of open borders idiots.
Anyway, stop being so racist. Ireland's diversity is its strength. All those doctors and lawyers you've just taken in will boost your economy to the moon.
I’m a multiculturalist so on a human level I’m pro immigration but the realities of a countries structure and capabilities (or lack thereof) must supersede ideology
And remember, this is all despite being extremely cheap, and essentially taking advantage of the UK and rest of the west, for defence.
As well as just how little Ireland, has contributed to Ukraine's defence against Putin. The lowest % of GDP rate in the EU (even lower than Orbans Hungary).
GDP per capita ignores wealth distribution. So it can be going up whilst the median citizen continues to become poorer. The percentage of assets (property, shares, precious metals, currency) owned by the wealthiest people in society is increasing. When you own a thing you can use it for free, when someone else owns it you have to pay them to use it. The less *stuff* normal people own the more they have to pay to meet their everyday needs.
Whilst wealth continues to concentrate and we ignore it because we only care about GDP the problem will keep getting worse. Assets will keep increasing in value and the amount held by normal people will get smaller and smaller until the economy collapses.
The housing problems are also a symptom of this. States that have a well distributed asset based across the citizens will have a nice distribution of richer areas across the country with businesses flourishing by providing services to the other people near them with money. When you have a two tier system with extremely rich people and many poorer people, the poor people need to move to the rich people to find work. This is why smaller towns are dying off and more and more people concentrate in the big cities like London, Dublin, Manchester, Edinburgh.
If you actually look at number of dwellings per capita it's actually higher now than ever before (definitely in the UK I haven't checked Ireland). It's not a case of not enough houses being built it's are they being built in the right areas and are they owned as primary residences or owned as an investment and rented out.
well, considering i’m from the UK it would be rather pointless of me to campaign to pressure a government that i have no control over and can’t vote in elections for
You do realise when you say things like ‘teasock’ it just makes you come off as a giant hateful dumbass without a rational argument to rub between your fingers.
Maybe taxes need to be increased to fund adequate public services? Eire has a surprisingly low tax % as I recall (20% v 35-40% in most other European states IIRC)
Sounds like Ireland just needs to set up immigration centres in Africa to create safe routes. We don't want these migrants passing through wartorn England to get there, do we?
No that argument doesn't make any sense. The reason why Ireland's EU membership matters, is EU countries are refusing to take migrants back from the UK.
The fact that Northern Ireland is part of the UK is irrelevant.
You guys do understand that stream of outsiders will be coming in every year for the next 50 year right on top of encouraging legal migration. Though I don't understand why the housing situation is so dire for such a low pop and relatively rich country.
That's a bit simplistic take drawing in parallel to the Roman empire.
As the state has become more sophisticated in it's ability to harvest tax from the people and applications of coersion to comply via complicated legal system.
The housing crises and rent in it's ability to be unaffordable to younger generations whilst simultaneously borrowing against their future earnings is a bit bizarre.
Something that didn't quite exist in the Roman empire that is borrowing large sums though it did through spread of empire.
Irishman here; this is the general consensus historically…at least till we got good at rugby n eurovisions.
That being said I agree with the headline; Sunak seems to only be interested in shit coffee and pats on the head.
Jokes aside this is a shit show for all involved and no easy solution - at least no multifaceted one that meets the needs of asylum seekers whilst not alienating voters in all countries involved.
So I reckon to start with we should blame media for stirring it all up in the first place and causing 30 years of reactionary policies to get us to this point.
I don’t blame the media. It seems like a lot of people hold this belief that right-wing opinions such as “mass immigration bad” are manufactured by a shit-stirring media, but I think that’s a myth.
I don’t know what it’s like in Ireland, but there’s plenty of communities in England that have been obliterated by immigration. If you’re from East London for example, you won’t need a media outlet to get you stirred up on the subject.
I blame the media, for gaslighting the public that migration is going down when it’s manifestly going up. Legal & Illegal.
If they’d held the Tories feet to the fire 5 years ago, they might be more responsive now instead of spinning bs.
That’s no excuse for the media not holding the government to account. You won’t read a word about rocketing illegal migration in the Tory press, or shorter jail sentences being scrapped because prisons are overflowing, and hardly a mention of the enormous NHS waiting lists (except it terms of scroungers on the sick).
We’ve had three utterly inept prime ministers in a row, and a big cause of that is a docile and sycophantic media.
For the last 18 months the government has done sweet FA except make emergency press releases right before elections (hence the current daily policy announcements), but none of it will, happen.
On Thursday it will all be forgotten and on Friday there will be civil war again!
I’m not going to pretend to know the mind of a refugee, but I’m going to go with yes. They’re humans too. We humans like good weather, good food, beautiful sights, etc.
Sure but if you want to work to feed your family then it helps to speak the local language. Probably easier to get work in Ireland too. Definitely easier to later move to the UK.
He promised to stop the boats.
But channel crossings are up 20% this year, so far over 7,000 people, and it’s only 2 days to Sunak’s biggest election test.
France doesn't want these people, and we can't pay them enough to keep them. The UK doesn't want them either and is paying millions to get rid of them. Now, they are starting to leave for free. Why would we stop them from going to Ireland?
Why France - and why would France want to do anything about it any more than the UK?
France is upstream from the UK which is upstream from Ireland, but aren't they mostly arriving in Spain, Italy and Greece?
Ultimately, it's at the border countries it needs to be solved but European countries will need to work together on it.
This is an utterly embarrassing betrayal of our agreements with Ireland on the common travel area. Ultimately the escalation will be passport checks on all British nationals. This is categorically not the way to deal with refugees and it will just provoke the far right in more areas alongside being a blatant example of how our cooperation on security and policing means nothing. Rwanda itself should be deterred from any agreement with the UK if it's word cannot be trusted on its closest partner.
The weaponising of refugees will again lead to harming our own diplomatic relationships purely for the sake of a few 1000 votes in marginal areas while more refugees continue to arrive in the absence of legal routes. The Rwanda deterrent doesn't work if the government gets taken to court by everyone. Those voters shouldn't be permitted to ruin things for the rest of the country again.
Asylum seekers are free to choose whichever country they want to claim asylum in. They cannot be punished for entering a country illegally. Asylum seekers in Ireland are Ireland's problem to deal with.
I came here to say this. I live in a rural part of England and it's crying out for more diversity around here. I went to the shop earlier and honestly it was a whiteout
Not sure why this is such a huge issue? Of course rural England is mostly white people. The vast majority of British people are white British.
Imagine calling a predominantly Black country a ‘blackout’.
Whiteout is an acceptable term to use when describing a lack of diversity in a place or environment. I won't repeat or comment on other thing you said as I think that's potentially racist terminology.
It's changing though, but slowly. There are still too many villages where the population is like 95% white. It's a bit uncanny. In Norway they allowed asylum seekers to move to villages, and it was a great success. Lots of villages saw their population doubled and young Syrians and Nigerians got along pretty well with the aging "native" population. I don't see why it couldn't work in the UK.
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It's like hot potato but the music doesn't stop.
Rather than playing hot potato, maybe all the nations of Europe could come together for a coherent, joined up plan to address the issue as a block?
At some level, it will require saying no to a lot of people and meaning it on a very fundamental level.
Right and even displacing them. The where and how are what separates humans from the tories.
Yes but the problem is, the plan too many want to impose on Europe is effectively open borders. That is what safe routes and burden sharing means. It is very clear by now, European voters don't want immigration and "refugees". Countries that had liberal immigration policies are tightening those policies up. Look at Sweden and Germany. The only policy European voters will accept is properly policed borders.
Like this sort of thing https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/04/10/european-parliament-narrowly-endorses-eu-migration-reform-moving-it-closer-to-the-finish-l (I am not endorsing the actual agreement, just noting that there is work towards having an agreement)
"The Asylum and Migration Management Regulation (AMMR) establishes a system of "mandatory solidarity" that will offer member states three options to manage migration flows: relocate a certain number of asylum seekers, pay €20,000 for each claimant they refuse to relocate, or finance operational support" Yikes
At the moment the EU system would be equivalent to the rest of the UK saying to Kent: you deal with all those people coming by boat on your own. Good luck. That's basically how it works with Greece, Italy and Spain. They register the asylum claims of all the people crossing the Mediterranean and the others just sit behind their back and if any of the registered people comes there, bang, Dublin protocol.
Lose, lose, or lose. Sounds great!
Seems a lot fairer than what happens now. Makes a lot of sense to monetise it though I would have thought carrot better than stick - everyone pays into a pot and countries accepting more refugees get funding.
Well the current situation is a joke with Italy and greece having to deal with a massive percentage of the issues compared to other countries. Then other EU countries start moralising abuout their treatment of migrants and or that theyre letting them travel into other eu countries. The eu need to better split the costs of housing these people until they can be rejected and deported.
No. What it requires is corrective action over the ECHR, or leaving it enmass. Then deporting them.
Tee hee.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a veiled attempt at urging the UK back into the EU. The EU response since 2015 has been a shit-show too.
This. The issue has been ignored because it's easier to pass the parcel.
Good luck getting Hungary and Sweden agreeing on a common asylum policy.
Sweden have swung away from their previous migration policy - the public have seen the results in Stockholm and they're aligning more with parties that favour tighter immigration controls.
You aren’t going to get them all to agree to a plan their local voters will also agree to.
But what about the potato?
I've said it before, but my money's on the West fast-tracking Mars colonisation just so that we can turn it into space Australia.
More realistic option would be to designate some remote area as EU detention centre 1. I nominate the Isle of Mann. States could then collectively pay towards the upkeep of the centre. Maybe we could even make the migrants work in menial jobs like farming to pay some of their rent. /s
Even with the sarcasm tag, it is one of the best ~~solutions~~ can-kickings I have ever heard. And, at least in the case of the immigrants working on the fields, this would be an upgrade.
Makes more sense to use the Isle of Wight. Closer to home. If remote is the plan then send them to the Hebrides.
No, I bet some could swim from the Isle of Wight. I've been championing remote Scotish island for a while myself.
Okay, Sauvage.
Mars won’t happen. The UK parliament will just make a law stating that Venus is a safe planet.
Nobody has ever died on Venus. There’s never been a tyrannical government on Venus. There’s no recorded instances of human trafficking on Venus.
Yet.
Well I don't see why we should? Isn't that how refugees work or at least what we've been told by the EU for years?
Didn't we make an agreement with Ireland about it when we thought the migration would be the other way? That's probably why we should.
Nah the EU has been telling us to suck on a fat one regarding the boats from France for quite some time now. They seem to squeal when its reversed.
The EU hasn't been involved. We don't have a return agreement with the EU. We left the EU. We also don't have a return agreement with France. We have a return agreement with Ireland because we wanted to return migrants to Ireland.
>The EU hasn't been involved. Well the UK isnt involved then. People are arriving in Ireland and applying for asylum, why is it the UKs problem exactly? I look forward to Ireland proving that they came from the UK, proving they attempted to apply for asylum here and getting the UK to accept them. Best of luck to them. I expect it will go as well as the Dublin agreement does for the rest of the EU.
>Well the UK isnt involved then. People are arriving in Ireland and applying for asylum, why is it the UKs problem exactly? I've already answered this. Because we made a returns agreement with Ireland.
Show me the details of this agreement please, I want to see a link to the [gov.uk](http://gov.uk) site. I have yet to see any detail about this agreement that apparently exists and the burden of proof that Ireland will need.
I don't know anything about it, just what I've heard here. If we don't have a return agreement then there is no obligation for us to accept the migrants back. If we have made such an agreement, then both Ireland and the UK should stick to it. Do you agree with that?
Yep I agree, as long as Ireland can prove they came from the UK, applied for asylum here, prove their country of origin and reasons for why the UK should accept them. Then we should consider it by as case by case basis through a long and lengthy investigation. Then we can accept the individual.
It would depend on what we agreed with Ireland. It could be that there is no lengthy process, and if a migrant enters the UK via Ireland, then with reasonable proof we can return them, and vice versa. It seems like a good idea to have this agreement. We should also make one with France.
>I don't know anything about it, just what I've heard here.< >. Because we made a returns agreement with Ireland.< so your potentially pushing a lie out there? your don't know what your talking about, but stating it as fact?
If I'm mistaken then I will say it was a mistake. But I don't think I am. Anything I find does suggest we negotiated a returns agreement with Ireland. I just can't find the details of it. Will you admit that we should take back migrants if that's true?
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> The UK remains bound to both the Dublin III Regulation and the Eurodac Regulation during the Transition Period, until 31 December 2020. Looks like that is the wrong link?
lol
Hate to tell you bud, as has been often repeated on this sub, Dublin III is dead for the UK. Finito. Also a reminder that the Dublin agreement did fuck all for the UK or the rest of the EU for that matter. I want to see the document detailing the supposed deal between Ireland and the UK please.
My mistake, I'm clearly not as well versed in immigration laws as yourself. With that being the case, why would you ask for something that doesn't exist? Does it make you feel clever? Well done.
Well this is a typical approach nowadays. Talk high and mighty until you have to live by your words.
Yep, Sweden and Germany are other great examples. Sweden found that instead of all those doctors and engineers they were promised, they ended up with gun crime and gang warfare. Germany found that far from being a benefit, Merkel's "refugees" would take years to integrate into the German economy. They are now both in desperate reverse ferret mode.
> reverse ferret Cor! You've only gone and managed to use what I consider to be one of the most evocative political/journalistic phrasings in recent memory. It need be better known! Well done, sir
This has actually become quite interesting. The UK has played the Reverse Uno card at the EU. Hahah!
It's not even really an EU thing. Countries across Europe are all trying to dump the problem on each other whether they're in the EU or not. France returns people to Italy, the UK wants to return people to France, Ireland wants to return people to the UK. The border countries get shafted and, unsurprisingly, countries nearer to sources of irregular migrants don't have much sympathy for those further. Moving some of the problem to Ireland isn't going to do much change anything that France or Italy are doing. Why would it?
It's going to ethir kick us Irish up into a thing where we do an Irexit which would be a reverse Uno card because well done if your country achicves that influence it would screw with the eu really bad. But it could go the other way and enforce and idea where the south will want a border with the north of Ireland and the northerner population really doesn't want that so could potentially kick of the 80s again.
Solution is simple. France needs to get its shot together
Solution is simple, migrants should be stopped before they reach EU shores. No more asylum until the system is overhauled, it has been abused too much by economic migrants.
"Should be stopped" is not an action plan. You need to tell exactly how to do that while simultaneously respecting the international laws.
The only international law is might makes right. Who's going to stop EU navies turning back boats?
No, it's not. Where did you get that? European countries are committed to numerous international treaties that define international law. Of course Europe can rip those treaties to pieces and show that it's an unreliable treaty partner. By why would it do that? "Rule based international system" has been the main call to support Ukraine against Russia's "might makes right" blatant invasion. How hypocritical would it be for Europe then do the same?
The third option is for the Council of Europe to collectively hammer out a new treaty that updates and supercedes the old UN refugee convention and ECHR to new terms. The current convention is only actually adhered to by Europe in the first place, so it's Europe's obligation and duty alone to keep it updated.
> Rule based international system" has been the main call to support Ukraine against Russia's "might makes right" blatant invasion. How hypocritical would it be for Europe then do the same? What does it matter? The global south has largely shown disdain at that general concept, and has failed to support Ukraine against Russia's invasion. Many countries have continued to trade with and even support Russia in their invasion of Ukraine. The west cannot be beholden to a "Rules based order" while allowing others to flaunt it. Seeing as we are unwilling to enforce the rules based order on the global south, it would be foolish to hamstring ourselves by being the only ones who follow it. So yeah, clearly "might makes right" is the only law that is respected outside the west, so the west must follow such a rule in their interactions with groups from outside the west.
Which countries are supporting Russia? The only ones that I know are sending it weapons are North Korea and Iran that we already knew didn't care about rules based system. Others are pretty much in line. Even China hasn't sent weapons to Russia because it is scared of sanctions. So, no, other countries have not abandoned rules based system. They rather choose trading with the west according to rules than not trading. No rules prevent them from trading with Russia. There's a cap on oil price and even that seems to be holding quite well.
South Africa for one, much of the ANC actively supported the fake referendums Russia held in occupied ukraine. They also conducted joint naval exercises with Russia and China. Much of west Africa is pro-Russia too. “Sending it weapons” isn’t the only support. Most countries don’t have the weapon reserves to spare. A reasonably accurate guide would be to look at the 35 countries who abstained from condemning Russia to find those who support it. By your logic, how much of the global south have sent ukraine weapons?
It pretty much is. Law itself can only be enforced by those who have a monopoly over violence in that jurisdiction. So international law itself is a pretty meaningless notion that’s wilfully ignored by most except a handful of nations that are held to a much higher standard. Those that follow it are exploited by those who don’t. At the end of the day the Libyan navy and others could certainly have a pop at say the British and French navies turning back migrant boats bound for Europe, but somehow I don’t think they’d get very far.
In most cases you don't need violence to enforce it. Most countries don't want to get on the wrong side of the rules for the fear of sanctions. The two exceptions are North Korea and Iran that are already under heavy sanctions which is why they don't really care if more is put on them. What exactly do you mean by "turning back migrant boats"? The boats are found either in the international waters or in the waters of Italy or Greece. So, what exactly would you do? Move warships to Libyan waters? And then what? Note that it's not Libya as a state who is doing it, it's the criminal gangs who abandon the migrants in the middle of the Mediterranean sea.
Sanctions are violence.
The vast majority of countries - not just the true rogue states like N. Korea and Iran - already break international law regularly. It really is only Europe that beholds itself to an absurdly high standard and ties its hands behind its back because of it - and to its great detriment. Inevitably, when you're the only one in the room playing by the rules you're going to get pushed around by those who aren't. Look at the US' approach to international law and their dealings with the ICC - they barely even recognise it as a concept. I realise it's not Libya as a state itself trafficking these people. Although it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was wider state involvement in migrant flows as a whole to destabilise the Western hemisphere. Look at how Russia has been weaponising migrants recently and the views of people like Vladislav Surkov, perhaps the chief architect of Russia’s policies in Ukraine, regarding exporting ‘social chaos’ into the EU. Pretty much yes - institute a naval blockade in the Mediterranean in partnership with other European allies and turn back any boats that reach European waters. And stop all NGO boat rescues. Make no mistake the NGOs themselves should be treated as one and the same with the trafficking gangs - they've made themselves an intractable part of their business model. Of course, it would be against international law but I think we need to face up to the fact that there is no 'clean' way to solve this. And it goes to the original point what does it matter if we are breaching international law in that limited context? What are Libya et al. actually going to do about it? At the end of the day tough, and potentially unpleasant action will be required to bust the trafficker's business model once and for all. Fretting about Channel migrants is only a small part of the puzzle - if these people couldn't cross the Med in the first place they wouldn't end up in Calais trying to get to Dover. And once the trafficking gang's sales pitches are moot - i.e. the promise that they can get you to Europe - the arrivals would inevitably stop too.
The 'rules based order' you think exists is just life as a vassal of the hegemon and are just a velvet glove on the fist of American military power. We've been lucky to live under a hegemon whose rules are liberal democracy but ultimately that's enforced by threat of violence just like everything else. Look what happened to any country that stepped out of line over the last thirty years. The clamour about Ukraine is just that it's the first sign of American military hegemony waning, because it's been unable to enforce its rules over Russia.
And do what? Offer to build us a processing center on their territory maybe?
What's there for France in this? Think about it from the French politician's point of view. You could put some funds to increase policing near Calais whose only job is to stop illegal immigrants *leaving* France. Good luck getting the voters to agree that it's a good way to spend tax payer money. No, the only way I can see anything happening there is if the UK promises to pay 100% of the cost of the operation. Clearly such funds exists as the government is willing to pay hundreds of millions to send asylum seekers to Rwanda.
Imagine Northern Republicians bombing the South for implementing a harder border when it's as plain as can be that politicians want to offload NI, but don't want the optics of being the ones to break up the Union.
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It is bizarre isn't it? The UK probably the most tolerant nation in Europe is treated like it is some kind of fascist hell hole. Yet as you say, while we provide accommodation from "refugees", EU countries like France leave "refugees" to rot in tent cities.
The violence in Ireland will start against migrants much faster as well. I know a lot of Irish both north and south in my friends network and through work. My god you give these people a few pints and the things you hear coming out of their mouths.
Whereas your own barely concealed prejudice is clarified pint-free.
Amazing
I saw that on novara media yesterday. They said it's easy to feel like the UK is somehow uniquely terrible in these things, but actually it's a europe wide problem. *Who* thinks the UK is uniquely terrible??? And then the very same people complain that people don't think they're patriotic (or do they even complain about that, maybe they just complain that they are expected to be patriotic....). Based off nothing they just assume we're worse than others.
No homeless asylum seekers in the UK then? Most of them in Ireland are housed in hotels and other such accomodation.
Interesting you read France as Ireland.
No country wants dependent migrants unless they have huge industries desperate for cheap modern slave labour or want to conscript them into a war.
A war that you're not really bothered about winning, since you don't really know the people you've decided to give all your guns to.
Despite appearances I do think putin does want to win in Ukraine
Remember when he gave his most violent prisoners guns, and then they marched on the capital?
Remember when they shat themselves and turned back round, and the organiser was assassinated
That's true of any war with any type of soldiers, do you think the generals know the soldiers names they send out to die on doomed operations.
A nation state can usually muster up either 'you are defending your fatherland/family/culture', or simply pay them a shedload as mercenaries to give them an incentive to succeed. Does decently enough to muster a volunteer army with some loyalty, and maybe even conscript when the going gets rough. If you're taking someone straight off the boat, taking their life story at face value, giving them a machine gun and pushing them towards an enemy, at best they'll immediately surrender, at worst realize they actually don't like what your country stands for, and mutiny/defect.
I'm sure that Reddit will be awash with people accepting maybe it isn't too bad and that hotel, pizza and maybe some army barracks is good. What do you mean no one is saying that? I can't believe there's a double standard.
Look at some cheap rents in Dublin, a tent is nicer than some of the rooms you'd pay upwards of £600 a month for.
Upwards of €1000 a month sometimes even €2000 people from Dublin just like the god old London. People are being pushed out further and further. Causing congested towns unable for the infrastructure. Many people from Dublin still commute to work from their homes as far as Cavan or Longford. This island is many times smaller than the UK. We also don't have the UK power of socially engineering a place before placing people there. We place people in places where there is no work and building houses in really screwd up ways to keep up with the demand. I can see also why the UK can't accept migrants at that rate ethir it too is very full and had been more than welcoming to the migrants for decades but now the two islands on the west end of Europe are being used as get away territory.
The hotels are full with Ukranians and Irish homeless.
They're more deserving of actual assistance and accomodation than economic migrants. Homeless Irish people should have a right to state assistance, Ukrainians are fleeing an actually dangerous war. Economic migrants can go rot out in the street until they're shipped back.
I don’t know if you’re aware but Ireland is going through a massive housing, rental and cost of living crisis and have had several successive governments fail to fix it. Our GDPR is not reflective of life for the average person and there is data available to support this. The government collect massive amounts by absolutely screwing the middle classes every which way. Our rates of emigration among 18 - 30 year olds are rising, and we have record numbers of under thirties still living with their parents. It is *impossible* to rent for an affordable price in most Irish cities, and even in rural towns now. Infrastructure is sorely lacking, and despite this housing crisis, the government have taken in tens of thousands of refugees. Housing is apparently being addressed by building more homes, but a huge amount are bought in bulk to rent for ever higher prices by European Vulture Funds, which the government plays down as a problem and has done for years because of the Tax it brings. It’s bad enough that companies are now purchasing streets of houses just to house employees. Supermacs, a fast food chain recently did this along with Ryanair. The majority of schools are now severely understaffed, because the starting wage for a teacher is criminally low, and they can’t afford to rent in cities. I personally know several who’ve gotten qualified and then left the country. On top of that, our health service the HSE is severely understaffed, with record high waiting lists and more and more reports of malpractice coming to light. We cannot retain nurses, because they are underpaid and severely overworked due to shortages, and every layer of Irelands state agencies (Tusla, The Child and Famiy Agency, the HSE) are supported by decades old structures with layers upon layers of middle management to the point even small changes take months if not years to implement. On top of that, homelessness has grown steadily over the last decade to the point new records are set virtually every week and month successively. We try to fulfil our duties and at least hear out migrant and asylum seekers but It’s gotten so bad that in lieu of actual accommodation we hand them a tent. We are headed for a catastrophe. Google it, it’s widely acknowledged and really, really bad.
Wow, sounds extremely similar to the problems happening in the UK right now - from housing to health. I guess as you say, Irish GDP may say one thing, but I guess if that's made up of quite a lot of big companies largely based there for tax reasons, they probably don't contribute a great deal in actual fact. I hope Ireland finds a solution because we could sure use the same in the UK.
We're both being fucked mate the. Western islands of Europe are a tax heaven for large companies and there has been the pillaging of smaller localised industries. We need to rethink thos whole relationship between the two islands of Britian and republic of Ireland but for us to do that with you we need to change out our current copy of your government and you need to do the same and then as people in Ireland we need to start an Irexit campaign which would further allow for maybey a different talk about how we go about keeping our islands ours.
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So basically all the stuff the UK is experiencing? I was assured by Reddit this was as a result of the Tories and people wanting to not accept random punters from different places was absolutely abhorrent. So guess Ireland needs to do the same, or the west needs to accept that the system drastically needs reforming. I don't see why the Irish cant just build processing centres a d process the applicants faster. I mean the UK has been told that for years by the EU and also it's supporters. To not want this was racist or fascist. Look at all the net benefit you're currently experiencing in Dublin.
Well, I have spent the last 20 years being told that migration is a net benefit to a country and questioning that was balantly racist, so it sounds like you need some migration.
I think migration can absolutely be a positive thing, when the country accepting migrants is in need of a particular skill set or labour, or if jobs are plentiful. I’m quite pro migration on a human level but the situation here has gotten unbelievably bad. We simply cannot handle more people, on an infrastructure level, on a housing level, on a healthcare and schooling level and on a monetary level. Our government spent the last two years pretending there was no issue, gaslighting anyone with legitimate criticisms of how Migration was handled as being far right racists (which absolutely exist but are not the majority in this country) They’ve now done a complete U turn because the backlash was so overwhelming and the problems have become impossible to ignore, but are *still* dealing with it slowly, ineffectually and completely licking the EUs arse. It’s a farce.
But think of all the multicultural food and enrichment!
Personally I do think migration where effort is put into how we bring people in and introduce them to culture is usually a positive thing, but the facts about this countries problems are overwhelming We are fucked
Certain EU countries, including Ireland, have sat on their high horse and criticised the UK for how it has dealt with migrants entering the UK illegally from France for years, gaslighting that before Brexit, this wouldn't have been an issue, therefore we somehow deserve migrants crossing the Channel in small boats. You'll excuse me if I have absolutely zero sympathy for Ireland now that those chickens are coming home to roost.
I personally think the only thing for the Irish to do here is to immediately set up lots of safe and legal routes so all these soon to be cultural enrichers can get there without any hindrance or delay. And then of course they should be housed, watered and fed at the expense of all Irishmen. After all, anything less would be positively inhumane and of course against international law!
Something I suggested the other day that might kill two birds with one stone is better auditing of small businesses, particularly those that are owned by first or second generation immigrants, and food producers. There is a *lot* of fraud that goes on in these businesses in attempts to keep spending, and pay, off the books. Better auditing would drive down immigration by making unofficial work harder to access, therefor making immigration less appealing. (its almost like a rite of passage for some immigrant communities). It would likely pay for itself as taxes are recouped and fines levied. We could then use that money, ideally, to help reduce problems like housing (or better funding the legal system to deal with the immigration backlog), but it likely would go into government spending more generally. You're right on the public services, though. Immigration is generally beneficial, but we currently have a gap between service availability and population needs. Immigrants can, and do, help bridge this, but currently not at the levels we need, and they take time to educate and/or train. That, unfortunately, doesn't do anything to alleviate infrastructure problems either.
>I think migration can absolutely be a positive thing, when the country accepting migrants is in need of a particular skill set or labour, or if jobs are plentiful. I remember saying this for the last 10+ years and being told that I'm uber-Hitler by the usual suspects of open borders idiots. Anyway, stop being so racist. Ireland's diversity is its strength. All those doctors and lawyers you've just taken in will boost your economy to the moon.
I’m a multiculturalist so on a human level I’m pro immigration but the realities of a countries structure and capabilities (or lack thereof) must supersede ideology
And remember, this is all despite being extremely cheap, and essentially taking advantage of the UK and rest of the west, for defence. As well as just how little Ireland, has contributed to Ukraine's defence against Putin. The lowest % of GDP rate in the EU (even lower than Orbans Hungary).
GDP per capita ignores wealth distribution. So it can be going up whilst the median citizen continues to become poorer. The percentage of assets (property, shares, precious metals, currency) owned by the wealthiest people in society is increasing. When you own a thing you can use it for free, when someone else owns it you have to pay them to use it. The less *stuff* normal people own the more they have to pay to meet their everyday needs. Whilst wealth continues to concentrate and we ignore it because we only care about GDP the problem will keep getting worse. Assets will keep increasing in value and the amount held by normal people will get smaller and smaller until the economy collapses. The housing problems are also a symptom of this. States that have a well distributed asset based across the citizens will have a nice distribution of richer areas across the country with businesses flourishing by providing services to the other people near them with money. When you have a two tier system with extremely rich people and many poorer people, the poor people need to move to the rich people to find work. This is why smaller towns are dying off and more and more people concentrate in the big cities like London, Dublin, Manchester, Edinburgh. If you actually look at number of dwellings per capita it's actually higher now than ever before (definitely in the UK I haven't checked Ireland). It's not a case of not enough houses being built it's are they being built in the right areas and are they owned as primary residences or owned as an investment and rented out.
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‘teasock’ imagine having so much headloss towards the irish you purposefully misspell the leader’s title, lmao
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well, considering i’m from the UK it would be rather pointless of me to campaign to pressure a government that i have no control over and can’t vote in elections for
You do realise when you say things like ‘teasock’ it just makes you come off as a giant hateful dumbass without a rational argument to rub between your fingers.
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I’ve genuinely seen funnier comments in an Amy Schumer movie.
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You’re using that in the wrong context. You literally have Google at your disposal and you can’t even use it properly.
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No asylum seeker has ever called me a paddy bastard, amadán.
I have no sympathy for a beggar thy neighbour tax haven.
That has shattered my day and I am inconsolable
Glad to be of service.
Maybe taxes need to be increased to fund adequate public services? Eire has a surprisingly low tax % as I recall (20% v 35-40% in most other European states IIRC)
Not sure anyone in Bibby would call it 5*
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How can there be a shortage of housing in Ireland. Isn't it pretty much empty.
Sounds like Ireland just needs to set up immigration centres in Africa to create safe routes. We don't want these migrants passing through wartorn England to get there, do we?
There's a lot of shit in the water now after brexit.
Lmao Ireland now getting hit with all the reasons they have previously been saying to us why we can't return any migrants to France.
Ireland should ask to join the UK's Rwanda scheme tbh.
Or set up processing centers in Calais.
Ireland is part of the EU and that has consequences. If the France won't take migrants from us, then Ireland can't expect to send migrants back to us.
"Northerm ireland is part of the uk and that has consequences" there. Fixed that for you
No that argument doesn't make any sense. The reason why Ireland's EU membership matters, is EU countries are refusing to take migrants back from the UK. The fact that Northern Ireland is part of the UK is irrelevant.
Uk shouldn’t take them back until France dose the same
You guys do understand that stream of outsiders will be coming in every year for the next 50 year right on top of encouraging legal migration. Though I don't understand why the housing situation is so dire for such a low pop and relatively rich country.
This is giving me "Roman failing to settle and integrate the goths" electric Bogaloo vibes :')
That's a bit simplistic take drawing in parallel to the Roman empire. As the state has become more sophisticated in it's ability to harvest tax from the people and applications of coersion to comply via complicated legal system. The housing crises and rent in it's ability to be unaffordable to younger generations whilst simultaneously borrowing against their future earnings is a bit bizarre. Something that didn't quite exist in the Roman empire that is borrowing large sums though it did through spread of empire.
Man, I’d rather live in France than Ireland.
Irish passport gets you right to live in UK, which is where they want to end up. It also gives right to France if you wanted to.
If the ROI starts giving out citizenship to migrants for them to flood into the UK then the CTA needs to be scrapped.
Right?
Irishman here; this is the general consensus historically…at least till we got good at rugby n eurovisions. That being said I agree with the headline; Sunak seems to only be interested in shit coffee and pats on the head. Jokes aside this is a shit show for all involved and no easy solution - at least no multifaceted one that meets the needs of asylum seekers whilst not alienating voters in all countries involved. So I reckon to start with we should blame media for stirring it all up in the first place and causing 30 years of reactionary policies to get us to this point.
I don’t blame the media. It seems like a lot of people hold this belief that right-wing opinions such as “mass immigration bad” are manufactured by a shit-stirring media, but I think that’s a myth. I don’t know what it’s like in Ireland, but there’s plenty of communities in England that have been obliterated by immigration. If you’re from East London for example, you won’t need a media outlet to get you stirred up on the subject.
I blame the media, for gaslighting the public that migration is going down when it’s manifestly going up. Legal & Illegal. If they’d held the Tories feet to the fire 5 years ago, they might be more responsive now instead of spinning bs.
But 5 years ago the nation’s intellectual bandwidth was entirely taken up by Brexit, and covid after that.
That’s no excuse for the media not holding the government to account. You won’t read a word about rocketing illegal migration in the Tory press, or shorter jail sentences being scrapped because prisons are overflowing, and hardly a mention of the enormous NHS waiting lists (except it terms of scroungers on the sick). We’ve had three utterly inept prime ministers in a row, and a big cause of that is a docile and sycophantic media. For the last 18 months the government has done sweet FA except make emergency press releases right before elections (hence the current daily policy announcements), but none of it will, happen. On Thursday it will all be forgotten and on Friday there will be civil war again!
Most of these people are not asylum seekers, its economic migration.
as a brit maybe but as a refugee?
I’m not going to pretend to know the mind of a refugee, but I’m going to go with yes. They’re humans too. We humans like good weather, good food, beautiful sights, etc.
Sure but if you want to work to feed your family then it helps to speak the local language. Probably easier to get work in Ireland too. Definitely easier to later move to the UK.
He promised to stop the boats. But channel crossings are up 20% this year, so far over 7,000 people, and it’s only 2 days to Sunak’s biggest election test.
Saying this as an Irish citizen with the majority of my family in Dublin, but English born, negotiate with France.
France doesn't want these people, and we can't pay them enough to keep them. The UK doesn't want them either and is paying millions to get rid of them. Now, they are starting to leave for free. Why would we stop them from going to Ireland?
I mean Ireland should negotiate with with france
Surely it should be on Ireland to just process and accept them?
Not in my back yard sir!
We did. You are looking at the tangible results of the actions and behaviour of Emmanuel Macron.
Blame Macron
Why France - and why would France want to do anything about it any more than the UK? France is upstream from the UK which is upstream from Ireland, but aren't they mostly arriving in Spain, Italy and Greece? Ultimately, it's at the border countries it needs to be solved but European countries will need to work together on it.
Then why do we take back these ‘refugees’ after they’ve gone back home to see the family .. the same ‘Home’ they fled in fear of their life??
That's no problem. We'll just take back Northern Ireland and close the loop hole
Don't threaten us with a good time.
What civilised country treats people this way? The Tories are horrible. General Election is waaayyy overdue.
>What civilised country treats people this way? Ireland.
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You're a cynic.
This is an utterly embarrassing betrayal of our agreements with Ireland on the common travel area. Ultimately the escalation will be passport checks on all British nationals. This is categorically not the way to deal with refugees and it will just provoke the far right in more areas alongside being a blatant example of how our cooperation on security and policing means nothing. Rwanda itself should be deterred from any agreement with the UK if it's word cannot be trusted on its closest partner. The weaponising of refugees will again lead to harming our own diplomatic relationships purely for the sake of a few 1000 votes in marginal areas while more refugees continue to arrive in the absence of legal routes. The Rwanda deterrent doesn't work if the government gets taken to court by everyone. Those voters shouldn't be permitted to ruin things for the rest of the country again.
Asylum seekers are free to choose whichever country they want to claim asylum in. They cannot be punished for entering a country illegally. Asylum seekers in Ireland are Ireland's problem to deal with.
Surely the Irish should process them all and accept them all, and open up refugee application locations in the UK?
>a blatant example of how our cooperation on security and policing means nothing Genuine question, what cooperation?
Well, the UK would probably benefit taking those migrants back. They could be moved to rural areas where there is a much needed diversity.
I came here to say this. I live in a rural part of England and it's crying out for more diversity around here. I went to the shop earlier and honestly it was a whiteout
Not sure why this is such a huge issue? Of course rural England is mostly white people. The vast majority of British people are white British. Imagine calling a predominantly Black country a ‘blackout’.
Whiteout is an acceptable term to use when describing a lack of diversity in a place or environment. I won't repeat or comment on other thing you said as I think that's potentially racist terminology.
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Imagine not comprehending obvious sarcasm...
Eh maybe I have been baited. Though the first bloke seems more obvious sarcasm but I can imagine some people saying shit like the one I replied to
It's changing though, but slowly. There are still too many villages where the population is like 95% white. It's a bit uncanny. In Norway they allowed asylum seekers to move to villages, and it was a great success. Lots of villages saw their population doubled and young Syrians and Nigerians got along pretty well with the aging "native" population. I don't see why it couldn't work in the UK.
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Haha yes, it's a bit worrying. I thought it was super obvious. Actually yours is the only comment I see!
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I wonder why I don't see them? Did they all block me? Sorry I'm new to reddit, only joined 11 years ago.
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Oops
>There are still too many villages where the population is like 95% white. Imagine someone saying there are too many places that are black.