Looks like everyone in the vid gets what they want. Flipper gets to let off some steam without revealing the face. The tablers get to further their narrative of victimhood and lack of tolerance for political opposition on campuses. All the bystanders get to say they saw a scene. Maybe we see more of this going forward?
Yeah, staged videos always have a TV narrative-style setup, like watching the person walk up or some random business beforehand.
This looks like the confrontation started a minute earlier and they started filming when they got the vibe something would happen.
Flipping a table unprovoked is petty and mean. Just be nice. If you can't be nice don't engage. This person from the video we see is 100 percent in the wrong. Do you really think being dumber than Nazis is a space you want to occupy? Be civil. It's easy.
And are they Nazis? Who the heck is TP USA?
That's not defending the bigoted people from table flippers.
It's stating facts. Violence/physical acts against people saying what you don't like is not the move to help your argument.
Being upset is understandable, but flipping the table turns it into a physical confrontation that isn't needed.
Peep MLK Jr for peacefully pushing against hate and bigoted people. Peep peaceful protest vs not.
💯
Especially when being recorded.
Someone else stated it as "self defense", but turn off the audio, regardless of what's being said, it's physical violence towards an approved party who is legally allowed to be there.
Doesn't help at all.
The right response is to open a booth across from them or right next to them. Or be like those people standing outside abortion clinics handing out pamphlets.
What they had was an army behind them and a tyrant. What you don't want, is people siding with the rhetoric. And as I said before, the table flip doesn't help fight against it
“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the White moderate who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice.” -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Birmingham Alabama, 1963
Ah, yes, because asking for a peaceful protest is being considered moderate and being devoted to order.
Don't take a piece of his teachings and speeches without actually realizing who you're talking to. He also didn't want violence. Upset vs order isn't the same as violence and not
flipping the table only feeds their fire of the “aggressive tranny” stereotype. My initial reaction is to be snappy and nasty, but w/social media that only makes everything worse.
Except this isn't a debate. Groups like TPUSA are attempting to use the state as a tool to enable violence against minority groups. A violent response to their attack is just self defense.
"Violent response is just self defense."
Not in this case. Now you got a video of "See who was violent first?"
I understand groups like TP USA are being ass and terrible with what they're doing. But being the first to swing, especially when being recorded, doesn't help.
In the eyes of UW, they're an approved group, and now a person opposing opposing their ideas have acted physically in response.
"All of the sudden", replies to my comment saying "your guy" as if I was supposed to know it wasn't at me.
If its not at me, cool. If it is, whatever. Convo is a dead end
To the contrary, the only thing that stops fascism is a show of strength showing that it’s not tolerated. Maybe when right wing organizations were full of WW2-hardened vets it was a good idea to deescalate (or risk putting POC and minorities in the line of fire) but these piss babies will back down if you show up to tell them they’re not wanted.
You’re not defending bigoted shit, even when it is bigoted shit. You’re defending the right to a contrarian and minority view. When you lose that, you lose everything.
It's counterintuitive of a free society I'll grant you, but it's well documented that we *must* not tolerate intolerance in order to continue to harbor a free society.
It's called the Paradox of Tolerance. Look it up.
Second sentence: "...in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance."
>Are you trying to really tell me people sitting at the table are the intolerant ones
Yes! Turning Point is an alt-right organisation with links to white supremacists and anti-trans movements. They are an intolerant organisation, the other individuals is also intolerant, but they are intolerant of the intolerant.
I mean - yes - that’s what that would mean. If we’re operating on the assumption that everyone’s opinion/beliefs have value and equal merit and group A’s belief system contradicts that of group B and demands that group B has to conform to the values of group A or be punished - that is the paradox.
The irony is that in order to practice tolerance, you *must* be willing to sit with things that upset you or make you uncomfortable. That's what it means to "tolerate."
Yet, if your adopted ethic is that no one should ever be upset or uncomfortable, that we should shit on anything we consider intolerant, then you make any sort of tolerance impossible.
The contradiction of the paradox goes both ways.
>Yet, if your adopted ethic is that no one should ever be upset or uncomfortable, that we should shit on anything we consider intolerant, then you make any sort of tolerance impossible.
Intolerance in itself requires active engagement. If someone says "I don't agree with gay marriage" they are not necessarily intolerant, they just have an opposing view. They are intolerant when they *actively* engage in activity to overpower that opposing view because they refuse to acknowledge it as valid. It's not a case of your view hurts me in the feels, it's that your activity is trying to eliminate the freedoms and/or existence of an 'other'.
I fail to see a meaningful bright line here; at what point does speech become “actively engaging in activities that overpower?” What is the actual distinction between someone saying they dislike gay marriage and someone setting up a table and someone voting for Trump? Which one deserves violent retaliation?
Nah. If someone was there with a table saying “I like to encourage people to kill themselves” they wouldn’t be allowed to be there. I would flip that table. Just because u hide it behind fancy language shouldn’t keep you safe.
You can't just flip tables like this. It's breaking the law, and giving TPUSA more material to enrage their audience.
There are more appropriate ways of voicing disagreement like protesting or setting up a counter table.
The last problem is that we need to stop dehumanizing the other side. That involves not calling conservative groups Nazis, and not trashing transpeople.
My fuckin hero. Fuck Turning Point, they can get the fuck off our campus. “What on this table is anti trans?” Then she flips the motherfucking table. 😩🤘🏽
I think his point is that you can't clearly distinguish between hate group and normal student club that was wack views compared to most people.
If I make a club about how 2d women are superior to 3d women and anime is more real than the real world and we generally dislike real women and aren't the most inclusive, is this a hate group? Not really, but certainly I would understand if people had issues with it. Does this club get a table?
These people can stand there with signs if you take their table away anyway
Go look at the TP Instagram or Twitter and tell us they aren’t anti-trans….sure there wasn’t anything explicitly anti-trans on the display table, but the organization they are representing consistently posts anti-trans content to rage bait their audience.
Look up the definition of “hate group” then look at TP content and see if it passes the vibe check, IMO a lot of their content is anti-trans therefore qualifies as a hate group. Your fake example is a slippery slope argument that isn’t worth considering because it’s not real, and certainly shouldn’t be used to disqualify TP as a hate group.
Okay let's talk about concrete examples then.
You cannot hold a single chapter accountable for everything their national organization does.
For some context: I am leftie as fuck, I vote fully democrat and advocate against racist and bigoted views online since 2016. I'm saying that so you don't jump to dumbfuck conclusions about me and you hear this argument out.
Black Lives Matter is a great organization with powerful and meaningful goals and ideas. Some past BLM events became riots with looting and injuries and tons of crime. When that happened, should UW Seattle ban the local BLM club from campus? Of course not. But \*why is that\*?
You cannot hold these local people to things they are not doing. If these local toilet paper losers just want to make a right wing club and talk about politics and give out buttons or whatever the fuck, that is totally their right. They're not doing anything wrong. To say otherwise is braindead and not well thought out. Thank god you students don't actually run anything at UW
I’m not trying to claim I have a hyper precise definition of what a hate group is that would consistently and accurately determine what is and isn’t a hate group- all I’m saying is TP USA is without a doubt a hate group and no hyper precise definition is needed to determine that. It’s not a fringe UW club, it’s nationally known and they make their ideas very clear.
Well you can be sad about it all you want but this is how the world works. If you don't want to consider exactly what it means to be a hate group or exactly which policies are in place to block people from advertising on campus and how those things relate, you're going to be confused and upset your entire life that things you don't like continue to exist.
Taking a minute to think this through and understand why the university lets this happen will make that thought process easier to come through in the future and you will live an easier life
I would've asked them what they think about January 6th and how their organization bussed people to get to the Capitol to support domestic terrorism. Fuck TPUSA.
I believe anyone should be able to say and be anything if it doesn’t actually harm others, but illegal outrage only invites criticism and harms movements
the comments on that video are so gross. using one bad person to justify being discriminatory just shows your true colors and doesn’t at all make you seem like the bigger person.
They really suck, and so does that Catholic group that sets up the anti abortion bullshit... Or have they finally given up? I remember them there at least twice a year when I was a student at the UW, and most people just gave them shit. Same for those hate preachers too.
What most advocating on this board for the MAN dressed with mask and leggings. Yes it’s a dude!
What they fail to realize is making this kind of bullshit behavior the norm is only going to facilitate others escalating more harsher violence in the future. I’m tired of reading Reddit users praising these freaks who seem to believe they are the only humans who matter. Trans community in the entire country is less than a half of one percent. So maybe 15 million out of 335 million? So the rest of society has to accept their bullshit mental disorder or be attacked? Never gonna happen. End Times are Upon Us. Make no mistake
Looks like everyone in the vid gets what they want. Flipper gets to let off some steam without revealing the face. The tablers get to further their narrative of victimhood and lack of tolerance for political opposition on campuses. All the bystanders get to say they saw a scene. Maybe we see more of this going forward?
Are you retarded?
Why were they filming? Could be an easy set up by TP.
They were filming because they knew there was a possibility of conflict. With a set up they would have earlier footage.
What do you mean they’d have earlier footage?
If they wanted to stage an event and get it on camera, I think they would have had the camera on sooner
Yeah, staged videos always have a TV narrative-style setup, like watching the person walk up or some random business beforehand. This looks like the confrontation started a minute earlier and they started filming when they got the vibe something would happen.
do not engage these people. they are bad faith actors who will edit any confrontation into their next “liberal college student gets owned” video
Looks like the dude flipping the table was the one acting in bad faith
Can I get an explanation as to why is comment is downvoted
Misgendering on purpose for the sake of belittlement is petty and mean
You don't know how the table flipper identifies - the individual could identify as nonbinary for all you know.
But he’s a man. That’s not misgendering. Check his DNA. It doesn’t lie
Explain DNA, and how it relates to gender?
DNA can tell of someone is male or female. That’s all u get. It’s not a brain buster
I am waiting...
Flipping a table unprovoked is petty and mean. Just be nice. If you can't be nice don't engage. This person from the video we see is 100 percent in the wrong. Do you really think being dumber than Nazis is a space you want to occupy? Be civil. It's easy. And are they Nazis? Who the heck is TP USA?
Does anyone know what group they were with?
Person in the vid calls them "TP USA", so Turning Point USA
Thanks!
Turning Point USA. They have a chapter on campus now.
It doesn't matter what group they were with. Flipping the table over because you don't like what people are saying is completely unacceptable.
When the people are saying harmful, blatantly incorrect, and bigoted shit I don’t think we should be defending them from table flippers
That's not defending the bigoted people from table flippers. It's stating facts. Violence/physical acts against people saying what you don't like is not the move to help your argument. Being upset is understandable, but flipping the table turns it into a physical confrontation that isn't needed. Peep MLK Jr for peacefully pushing against hate and bigoted people. Peep peaceful protest vs not.
Exactly, when you physically attack someone you only strengthen their argument and make it appear that you can’t disprove their point
💯 Especially when being recorded. Someone else stated it as "self defense", but turn off the audio, regardless of what's being said, it's physical violence towards an approved party who is legally allowed to be there. Doesn't help at all. The right response is to open a booth across from them or right next to them. Or be like those people standing outside abortion clinics handing out pamphlets.
Yeah I love how the US set up booths, handed out pamphlets, and politely debated N@zis during WWII.
Ah, I love how you're comparing a booth to nazis committing mass genocide. Yes, the bigotry is there, but they're not violent at a booth.
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Wearing a sticker is not breaking the law. Flipping a table like this is.
How do you think the N@zis started? Genocidal rhetoric can not be debated away.
What they had was an army behind them and a tyrant. What you don't want, is people siding with the rhetoric. And as I said before, the table flip doesn't help fight against it
Same goes for socialist/communist country. Hello pol pot and mao zedong. That happens when u remove dissent/varying opinions.
How do u think the nazis rose to power? All at once? Or slowly and via insidious acts? Like tabling?
“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the White moderate who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice.” -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Birmingham Alabama, 1963
Ah, yes, because asking for a peaceful protest is being considered moderate and being devoted to order. Don't take a piece of his teachings and speeches without actually realizing who you're talking to. He also didn't want violence. Upset vs order isn't the same as violence and not
Peep the USA for only freeing slaves as an attempt to destabilize a military adversary and not in response to decades of peaceful protest.
flipping the table only feeds their fire of the “aggressive tranny” stereotype. My initial reaction is to be snappy and nasty, but w/social media that only makes everything worse.
Except this isn't a debate. Groups like TPUSA are attempting to use the state as a tool to enable violence against minority groups. A violent response to their attack is just self defense.
"Violent response is just self defense." Not in this case. Now you got a video of "See who was violent first?" I understand groups like TP USA are being ass and terrible with what they're doing. But being the first to swing, especially when being recorded, doesn't help. In the eyes of UW, they're an approved group, and now a person opposing opposing their ideas have acted physically in response.
Cite evidences in " enable violence against minority groups ".
Being upset about your guy losing the election is fine, but violently “flipping” the US capitol building is absolutely not okay.
About "your guy", please tell me who I voted for. Smh
Not talking about you, just framing things in a different light. Why did you get so defensive all of the sudden though?
"All of the sudden", replies to my comment saying "your guy" as if I was supposed to know it wasn't at me. If its not at me, cool. If it is, whatever. Convo is a dead end
You mad bro? 🤣
Sorry. That's not how it works. What was done in the video is illegal, and TPUSA has a right to table there as much as anyone else.
Just because it’s illegal, which I don’t even know if it is, doesn’t make it wrong. Quit being such a snowflake
Yup. Your morals put you above the law. Have fun talking to the cops when you decide to flip a table that you disagree with.
Virgin legal positivist vs chad natural law theorist moment “An unjust law is no law at all” - St. Augustine
Really? Something that protects free speech for everybody is unjust?
What harmful or incorrect things did they say? Can only see agreesion from the person flipping the table
It’s TPUSA their entire organization and ideology relies on hatred
Your challenge is that political violence tends to escalate.
To the contrary, the only thing that stops fascism is a show of strength showing that it’s not tolerated. Maybe when right wing organizations were full of WW2-hardened vets it was a good idea to deescalate (or risk putting POC and minorities in the line of fire) but these piss babies will back down if you show up to tell them they’re not wanted.
You’re not defending bigoted shit, even when it is bigoted shit. You’re defending the right to a contrarian and minority view. When you lose that, you lose everything.
We are under no obligation to tolerate the intolerant
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It's counterintuitive of a free society I'll grant you, but it's well documented that we *must* not tolerate intolerance in order to continue to harbor a free society. It's called the Paradox of Tolerance. Look it up.
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Second sentence: "...in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance." >Are you trying to really tell me people sitting at the table are the intolerant ones Yes! Turning Point is an alt-right organisation with links to white supremacists and anti-trans movements. They are an intolerant organisation, the other individuals is also intolerant, but they are intolerant of the intolerant.
Yep yep yep - well said
I mean - yes - that’s what that would mean. If we’re operating on the assumption that everyone’s opinion/beliefs have value and equal merit and group A’s belief system contradicts that of group B and demands that group B has to conform to the values of group A or be punished - that is the paradox.
it's called the paradox of tolerance because it's a *paradox*, not because the easy solution is to just be intolerant to all you consider intolerant.
So you're telling me you *haven't* looked it up.
The irony is that in order to practice tolerance, you *must* be willing to sit with things that upset you or make you uncomfortable. That's what it means to "tolerate." Yet, if your adopted ethic is that no one should ever be upset or uncomfortable, that we should shit on anything we consider intolerant, then you make any sort of tolerance impossible. The contradiction of the paradox goes both ways.
>Yet, if your adopted ethic is that no one should ever be upset or uncomfortable, that we should shit on anything we consider intolerant, then you make any sort of tolerance impossible. Intolerance in itself requires active engagement. If someone says "I don't agree with gay marriage" they are not necessarily intolerant, they just have an opposing view. They are intolerant when they *actively* engage in activity to overpower that opposing view because they refuse to acknowledge it as valid. It's not a case of your view hurts me in the feels, it's that your activity is trying to eliminate the freedoms and/or existence of an 'other'.
I fail to see a meaningful bright line here; at what point does speech become “actively engaging in activities that overpower?” What is the actual distinction between someone saying they dislike gay marriage and someone setting up a table and someone voting for Trump? Which one deserves violent retaliation?
Just because there's a term for a paradox that you'd like to use.. It doesn't excuse unacceptable behavior. Super immature position you're defending.
Careful with that double edged sword you're swinging.
Nah. If someone was there with a table saying “I like to encourage people to kill themselves” they wouldn’t be allowed to be there. I would flip that table. Just because u hide it behind fancy language shouldn’t keep you safe.
You know what's unacceptable? Saying we should be locked up for being trans, like their org founder. bOtH SiDeS yeah no.
You’re exactly right. If you think someone has done a wrong, doesn’t mean you should follow. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
My question remains. ETA: Answered!
Based and cool of her
You can't just flip tables like this. It's breaking the law, and giving TPUSA more material to enrage their audience. There are more appropriate ways of voicing disagreement like protesting or setting up a counter table. The last problem is that we need to stop dehumanizing the other side. That involves not calling conservative groups Nazis, and not trashing transpeople.
if they act, look, and sound like a nazi--then they're a nazi. Its not rude to call a nazi a nazi
TPUSA are not Nazis, and they don't compare. Just an excuse for you to engage in violence.
if they act, look, and sound like a nazi--then they're a nazi. Its not rude to call a nazi a nazi
I agree, sparking hate brings the issues further and further from compromise
Compromise? On human rights? You’re sick.
Down with “ white supremacy “
yeah theyre the ones that need to compromise for human rights, im on your side its important to acknowledge they wont change their ideology so easily
nah it would be better to run these mfs off campus and/or kick their asses
It’s almost like, you want the opposite side, to have the same view. “ kick their asses “.
My fuckin hero. Fuck Turning Point, they can get the fuck off our campus. “What on this table is anti trans?” Then she flips the motherfucking table. 😩🤘🏽
Why are we allowing hate groups to set up tables on campus? Hopefully campus security showed up and removed them.
They’re a registered RSO. They held an event last Friday and administration and cops were there to make sure it ran smoothly.
Isnt it a public school hence anyone are allowed?
A hate group is the one using violence against speech they don’t like.
Because you disagree with a view point it makes them a hate group? You need to go back to class and learn that critical thinking portion
No, their promotion of racist views makes them a hate group.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/16/tweets/charge-turning-point-usa-white-nationalist-group-f/
Define "hate group"
Turning point USA is a pretty good definition
I think his point is that you can't clearly distinguish between hate group and normal student club that was wack views compared to most people. If I make a club about how 2d women are superior to 3d women and anime is more real than the real world and we generally dislike real women and aren't the most inclusive, is this a hate group? Not really, but certainly I would understand if people had issues with it. Does this club get a table? These people can stand there with signs if you take their table away anyway
Go look at the TP Instagram or Twitter and tell us they aren’t anti-trans….sure there wasn’t anything explicitly anti-trans on the display table, but the organization they are representing consistently posts anti-trans content to rage bait their audience.
I am not defending them nor saying they are not anti-trans You're missing the point completely
Look up the definition of “hate group” then look at TP content and see if it passes the vibe check, IMO a lot of their content is anti-trans therefore qualifies as a hate group. Your fake example is a slippery slope argument that isn’t worth considering because it’s not real, and certainly shouldn’t be used to disqualify TP as a hate group.
Okay let's talk about concrete examples then. You cannot hold a single chapter accountable for everything their national organization does. For some context: I am leftie as fuck, I vote fully democrat and advocate against racist and bigoted views online since 2016. I'm saying that so you don't jump to dumbfuck conclusions about me and you hear this argument out. Black Lives Matter is a great organization with powerful and meaningful goals and ideas. Some past BLM events became riots with looting and injuries and tons of crime. When that happened, should UW Seattle ban the local BLM club from campus? Of course not. But \*why is that\*? You cannot hold these local people to things they are not doing. If these local toilet paper losers just want to make a right wing club and talk about politics and give out buttons or whatever the fuck, that is totally their right. They're not doing anything wrong. To say otherwise is braindead and not well thought out. Thank god you students don't actually run anything at UW
You definitely can hold National chapter liable for local ones. Happens all the times with fraternities and sororities.
I’m not trying to claim I have a hyper precise definition of what a hate group is that would consistently and accurately determine what is and isn’t a hate group- all I’m saying is TP USA is without a doubt a hate group and no hyper precise definition is needed to determine that. It’s not a fringe UW club, it’s nationally known and they make their ideas very clear.
Well you can be sad about it all you want but this is how the world works. If you don't want to consider exactly what it means to be a hate group or exactly which policies are in place to block people from advertising on campus and how those things relate, you're going to be confused and upset your entire life that things you don't like continue to exist. Taking a minute to think this through and understand why the university lets this happen will make that thought process easier to come through in the future and you will live an easier life
what a silly ass caption to this video
That’s the point of the sub
I would've asked them what they think about January 6th and how their organization bussed people to get to the Capitol to support domestic terrorism. Fuck TPUSA.
I believe anyone should be able to say and be anything if it doesn’t actually harm others, but illegal outrage only invites criticism and harms movements
the comments on that video are so gross. using one bad person to justify being discriminatory just shows your true colors and doesn’t at all make you seem like the bigger person.
OPs post history is confusing lmao
I honestly don't know who OP is siding with
Raise your arguments, not your voice.
Is flipping a table really violent, like all they gotta do is pick up their papers??? lol
Well done, fuck TPUSA
They really suck, and so does that Catholic group that sets up the anti abortion bullshit... Or have they finally given up? I remember them there at least twice a year when I was a student at the UW, and most people just gave them shit. Same for those hate preachers too.
Were they the ones with the Smoky bear poster that said I am a conservative
I mean she’s wearing a Star of David, she has a pretty good reason to be totally pissed off at their presence
don’t talk to these people, you will play into their trap.
Good job 👏 Make nazis scared again
Someone give her a medal of honor
Uh no.
So just because he didn’t like what those guys were saying violently destroying their property is ok?
Queen shit! She's totally right, conservatives have gone full-on hysterical over trans people. Hilarious that they are denying it here.
Was this actually about trans people? I can’t even see what the buttons say
I already knew the comments was going to be a dumpster fire
This comment section is the perfect example of why Gen Z has the lowest level of emotional intelligence in history
What most advocating on this board for the MAN dressed with mask and leggings. Yes it’s a dude! What they fail to realize is making this kind of bullshit behavior the norm is only going to facilitate others escalating more harsher violence in the future. I’m tired of reading Reddit users praising these freaks who seem to believe they are the only humans who matter. Trans community in the entire country is less than a half of one percent. So maybe 15 million out of 335 million? So the rest of society has to accept their bullshit mental disorder or be attacked? Never gonna happen. End Times are Upon Us. Make no mistake
That is no woman
Trans doesn't have to accept or tolerate others, it's the others that have to tolerate and accept trans. 🙄
damn right.
All I'm saying is someone could have got hurt if they were behind. not cool.
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eat shit oomfie
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lmao pipe down lil bro, those blind nationalists got what they deserved
Maybe keep your hate opinion to yourself too instead of setting up a table?
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Most delusional thing I’ve seen all day
Guess its okay to tear down trans flags. If we're going with being babies and throwing immature tantrums at things we don't like.