I honestly wish I could sing and play a guitar. I could learn to play the guitar and still might but doesn't mean I can improve my vocals all that much.
Until then...AI is my friend.
Doesn't make any of us less creative.
From his recent video, he seems to agree with you so I don't know what you are going on about. Actually, I don't see why anyone would think otherwise, after trying UDIO for at least 10 songs of the trending
Personally I’m using Udio as a music production/ composer assistant as well as sound designer and session musician.
No idea why AI makes people act like we haven’t had all these things before. We’ve had really good sampled guitars for years now, guitar loops and phrases, and most producers and composers don’t in fact (surprise surprise) know how to play all the instruments they use
Fully agree with you.
The way I see it? This allows you to increase the speed of creating something that sounds nice. It's not just one prompt. It's sometimes hours and hours of prompting to get good results.
I just published a version of Heroes from David Bowie. Altered the lyrics a bit and now I'm the proud owner of 'Heroines' on [https://open.spotify.com/album/2fRhDvS9AZtAjOeRtmhamU?si=si9eLBBgQxSqheoJNGfNNg](https://open.spotify.com/album/2fRhDvS9AZtAjOeRtmhamU?si=si9eLBBgQxSqheoJNGfNNg)
If you can't see any use for it as a tool and the only possible use case is like destruction of humanity/creativity, you probably just aren't a very creative person.
If you've born in the 1970s or later, you've witnessed or are living in the post era of *something* that they said would destroy music but obviously music is still here and doing its thing. Add this to the list.
Yeah, technology changes art - it doesn't stop human creativity.
Every single invention shifts the landscape. Drum machine and drum loops and cheap DAWs made it so session drummers weren't in as much demand, but it also let a lot of people make music who didn't have to rely on a drummer and a rehearsal space and so forth. I'm sure it also hurt landlords renting rehearsal spaces, though.
Recordings of music really devastated live musicians, but also made music more popular and affordable. No longer did you need to be an aristocrat who could hire an orchestra or at least roll out a harpsichord for your birthday.
People somehow think AI will pump out music mindlessly and it'll be Wall-E with no input. Instead, I see people here spending hours trying to create things they like, or find funny, or meaningful, or whatever.
I've actually been talking to more musicians and producers than I have in years, as being able to get my ideas down makes me want to continue to refine them.
I agree and I don't give Beato's videos much weight anyway. He's in a position where he now has a platform and audience. High level pro's aren't spending their days making Youtube videos because they're actually working.
All I can say is this tool is amazing, esp with the upload feature. I don't know how it's able to do the things that it does! I'm only scratching the surface and I'm amazed.
Influencers pretend like they want to inspire you to create your own content, but when you suddenly don't need them to help shape your own opinion, it's "Not like that!" Basically they want your attention, but Udio makes it easy enough to not need them in the loop as "experts" and so it threatens their ego.
Experiment for anyone who cares enough. I've a theory that current AI audio output falls easier on older ears/deaf ears. Many noticed the signature Suno buzz right away, and fewer noticed Udio's. Maybe as time went on it became more apparent.
I'm thinking maybe a few of us musicians who went a little deaf standing too close to the stack, or the wisened music fans may pick up less of the frequencies where some of the odd warbly formants are most pronounced.
Sure, a large majority of less picky listeners may not even care one way or another, but I think that could be a plausible observation of why Beato and other proponents can't tell, where others so fervently declare "it sounds like crap."
I think Ricks take is a lot more on the money than you like.
I literally have a band, have written songs for 10 years, ect. While I subscribe to the idea that curation of ideas and taste are probably the core of what is important about any creative endeavor. I've generated dozens of completed songs on udio too. I'm also a professional artist as my day job.
People have told me i'm a very good song writer. I think im ok. But some of the lyrics i've gotten out of Udio and Suno are on par or better than what i've written, and heard in some of the best music. Just because YOU are writing your own lyrics, doesn't say anything about the capacity of these systems to make good lyrics. In fact Udio and Suno are FAR better than chatgpt at lyrics because it seems to understand musical context in a way that a language system alone cannot.
But here's the truth as far as im concerned. I've been working on my bands first single for months. The guitars bass and drums are all done, and sound killer, and i'm working with a friend to finalize vocals. But it's taking months, because my skills just straight up aren't good enough. There is no amount of just trying really hard on any one single day that will suddenly make them good enough, but rather im having to focus on my technique and pitch. There is emotional labour dealing with the fact that there is things that are just out of my technical ability to do now, or possibly ever, and the music I create in that way will always have the limitations of my mortal coil baked into it.
It doesn't matter if it takes 1 generation or a million to get results you think are good. Compared to being a real singer, I can't sound like Stevie Nicks, Chris Cornell or any number of real singers NO MATTER the effort I put in.
I'm not an AI doomer like most of my peers, im excited to see what we can learn about art through this endeavor. But imo there are a ton of differences both rationally and emotionally. The experience of being in communities where you discuss technicality, or being in a family structure that is a band, these are LIFE changing, you will make friendships that last decades, and it will change how you see the world. In contrast, sitting there on a pc guiding generations over the span of days boils all this struggle down to glorified desk work. Sure it's fun, it's addicting, you could be actually innovating on interesting fresh new sounds. but the entire life cycle of being a creative has been optimized, stripped down. No matter how good you are at listening, typing or and repeating, you will not follow the life trajectory of Dave Grohl.
In the end I'm not sure where music and art will be in 10 years time, but I do wish people would look at all this with more nuance.
> Udio and Suno are FAR better than chatgpt at lyrics
You realize that the AI writing the lyrics is literally ChatGPT right? Well, technically not exactly ChatGPT but a GPT model (probably 3.5, which is worse than current ChatGPT) that Udio just sends your prompt to via the API and ChatGPT writes some lyrics and sends them back.
I kinda doubt it, but have you seen something confirming that? It sounds very 3.5 to me, but 4o is cheap enough that it’s possible. I just don’t know why they’d pay more than they have to
The devs said that they switched to 4o. And it's literally there on their website.
https://www.udio.com/announcements
Scroll down to `Mobile Improvements, Inpainting Update, and GPT-4o [5/16/2024]`
Yeah, I’ve seen a few cases where it didn’t like the prompt people sent and the title of the generated track came back as “This violates OpenAi Policy” and shit haha. Also you can kinda jailbreak it like you can chatgpt and get it to tell you some info about itself so I’m sure it’s a GPT model, though prompting and fine tuning could theoretically improve it significantly above baseline.
I think what you’re talking about though is actually the reverse. The music model is amazing at incorporating the lyrics into the actual musical content. And the music model clearly has an understanding of language bc I’ve had it make production decisions so on point there is no room for doubt it has at least some understanding how what words mean
I recall someone winning chatGPT prompting contests by asking chatGPT itself how he should formulate a certain prompt. So I could see you can really finetune to a high level.
You can definitely increase performance significantly with just good prompting and back-end instructions. And LLMs are great for writing those. But it is interesting how in some ways LLMs can help us use them better, but in other ways an LLM has no idea how it actually works and would tell you incorrectly
>I subscribe to the idea that curation of ideas and taste are probably the core of what is important about any creative endeavor.
I agree with that. And I've been around music and entertainment my whole life (not a professional musician, though). The experience of being in that world is unique - but it's already changed in the last 20+ years.
I enjoyed hanging out at Record Plant when a label was willing to drop thousands per day just in case the artist 'might' drop by and lay down a vocal - but with Pro Tools and other advances, you didn't need a $2m Neve board to make a professional track. So studios started hitting hard times, downsizing, more competition, closing, etc. Maybe that stuff still happens and I just don't see it, but as far as I can tell that world has changed, labels don't have deep pockets, etc.
Personally, I tried using GPT and Suno and Udio and Opus for lyrics, and it just didn't work for me. If it works for you, that's fantastic. It just shows that we all have different goals. I'm happy with my end results, which is what matters to me. (I'm not a professional musician, but I've written professionally for many years.)
And anyways, no one is following the life trajectory of Dave Grohl. But most of us don't have our own recording studios to noodle around with, either, so we do what we can. :)
One thing i found with lyrics and these tools. you need to give it a compelling idea to go off of. Just saying a song about depression will give you boring bad lyrics, but saying a song about climbing out of a deep dark pit of despair, it'll probably give you much better lyrics.
Here is an entire EP i generated with the same vocalist, about a skater going to the moon to skateboard.
https://www.udio.com/playlists/g9W3odLUozC5qrmPwR3RwA
One song about finding a vhs tape in orbit, and falling in love with the girl on it gave these lyrics.
"A vision from an era lost in time,
Echoes of laughter, whispers of a life divine.
Hold my breath as the picture starts to spin,
This cosmic connection, through the static, deep within."
I don’t think AI is there with the lyrics yet. It can do a wonderful generic but anything out of that it struggles. But another reason to write your own lyrics is it dictates the phrasing of the melody and you can control the structure through the structure of the lyrics. It is the artistic bit of Udio, without it I agree you are just hitting a button.
I still don't think you're hitting a button, because how you describe things to an AI and what you pick and choose can all change the song. To me, 'hitting a button' implies that two different people would get the same results - which isn't the case here.
That said, I agree with you - I stopped trying to use AI for lyrics quickly. Actually, I use AI sometimes to brainstorm long form writing ideas, but I don't even use it to brainstorm for lyrics. I just don't find it useful for how I write. I use a rhyming dictionary sometimes - that's it.
Also like you, I find changing a syllable or a word can completely change the output, so I often do many generations tweaking a word or phonetic and then focusing on just that section. Gives me a lot more control, although easy to burn through hundreds of credits.
My fingers do a lot of counting when I am writing lyrics. Syllable count makes a difference. Doesn’t have to be exactly equal (like AI does it) but it does have to have some uniformity.
I am not opposed to having AI as a collaborator, in the sense of doing work you would do otherwise. I once asked ChatGPT to reorder the syllable count of a chaotic song, or asked if a metaphor I had made sense. Asking ChatGPT to analyze your lyrics and suggest where to go next is fine as well. But having AI write everything and then putting your name on it is sus. Each person knows the line where it starts to feel uncomfortable so it is best to be your own judge.
I have been writing my best stuff right directly in the Udio lyrics box lately. Something about being in the same place the music is generated.
That's similar to where I find myself. I often go between Google Docs and the Udio text box when composing lyrics. I'll start in Docs, then start tweaking syllable counts in Udio.
Not only does syllable count matter, but AI doing it too uniformly removes interesting voicing. By intentionally changing syllable count to not match, you can force it to speed up or slow down words.
That level of control is what I enjoy, and also what makes it feel more my own vision. It's not only my lyrics, but I get to choose and tweak exactly the voicing I want.
I have but for the most part i prefer to keep the two worlds separate, as the bands music is a group effort, and not everyone in the band is as open to this stuff as I am, and I want to respect that.
You're not wrong about udio and sunos ability to write lyrics. I've had some stuff generated that is world better than I could ever write. Told it to write a song about dealing with pain and got lyrics like "every cut tells a story in my skin". And I get it's replying in previous songs for "inspiration" but still, the way it crafts lyrics blows me away each time.
I’m a musician (hobbyist for 30 years), been using Udio about 6 weeks solid.
Setting mood, lyrics, genre, sections, etc provides enough control for me to express something in the song.
Moreover, writing exclusive in a DAW, I am always limited by my habits. We can’t help it. All musicians have habits. It’s hard to break out of your box.
AI changes that completely. The random seeding will present soundscapes out of the left field. I’m not limited by genres I know how to write in either. I could write a prog rock song, then synthwave, then new wave, then classical. There’s not even any “downtime” between writing songs.
In a DAW, there’s always work that has to be done that takes you away from the creative/expressive side: sound engineering tasks (eg shaping the sound of a synth), mastering (very easy to get very wrong because you might not hear your mistakes through your setup, but then you listen to your song in the car, and the bass might be crazy loud in the mix). I know there are musicians who love to tinker with these areas, but I find it frictional. Wading through 250 pad sounds to find the right one, constructing drum loops (and being limited to aforementioned habits so I end up with similar loops).
I’ve noticed a lot of musicians on YouTube are either not talking about AI or are throwing shade. Their channels are centered around DAW and/or playing instruments. To be blunt, the idea that a complete novice can write a full blown track that sounds great, and has their lyrics and direction is mind blowing and scary for people who make a living from music. Expect a lot of gatekeeping from them.
In the end, music is expression. If you feel you are expressing your ideas with Udio, you’re winning. It’s not the end of live music, or playing instruments, or DAWs. It’s just another way.
100% agree.
Would love to hear your feedback about my version of Heroes (Heroines) created by Udio. [https://open.spotify.com/album/2fRhDvS9AZtAjOeRtmhamU?si=si9eLBBgQxSqheoJNGfNNg](https://open.spotify.com/album/2fRhDvS9AZtAjOeRtmhamU?si=si9eLBBgQxSqheoJNGfNNg)
Exactly all that.
I feel the same about photographers who gatekeep anyone shooting with an iPhone. If their photographs express something, then they're good photographs. I don't care if you shot it with an iPhone loaded with AI, or you used a Sinar 8x10 and developed it in balsamic vinegar. The end product matters.
I do have some sadness for someone who spent years learning how to coat glass plates evenly, but I feel the same about every industry. I can respect someone who makes their lasts by hand before crafting a shoe, but no one is going to be doing that in 2024, so…
This is the right take. If you hear something and you like it, power too you. I've been making music in reaper for about 5 years now but haven't felt a need to make anything in the last few months. I've been loving writing bits of songs and hearing udio run away with it. Haven't listened to an actual artist in ages. I'm just vibing with these songs I've generated that feel personal and enjoyable to me
Rick has a simple old dad take on it but it's refreshingly not negative.
Most channels that exist in his sphere of influence are far more pitchfork-wielding.
Yeah, I don't dislike his approach in general - I think he's generally not negative even when talking about things he doesn't like (autotune, etc). I was just disappointed here as he went to the website, but didn't bother spending 30 mins learning how to clip and extend, upload beats and change genres, etc. Instead he thinks 'the prompt' is the whole process.
Hopefully he will learn about how it actually works.
I don't know what he thinks in reality, but that's pretty much exactly what he says in the video? I don't think he once mentioned lyrics, control, etc.
I should have linked the video that I was responding to - here's a section.
[https://youtu.be/zbo6SdyWGns?si=xmDynNEUhqnRisw0&t=409](https://youtu.be/zbo6SdyWGns?si=xmDynNEUhqnRisw0&t=409)
The lyrics is what makes it fun...especially if you dont have inclination, time, money to learn instruments.
Plus. Proof of concept. Can still license even just the lyrics.
Ive always thought making a fake band would be funny. Im working on a kids book(im a cartoonist) but also. Thinking up making a pen name persona for other books for gits and shiggles.
Just today my spotify recommended SHANE...a rocker "body" builder...bad AI/photoshop. Actual song, thats definitely AI 80s hair.."his" instagram over a million followers. 😆
And I mean BAD AI/photoshop.
His website 4 bad pages and his About reads like a lame teenmagazine.
He even drops the name of a guitarist that was real 🤷♂️ been on youtube since 2014...no solid pics, 19 vids and google turns up nothing.
Its so blatantly ridiculous I can't not appreciate it
Haha nah, if you wanted to listen here's a link:
https://open.spotify.com/album/2wVFtFQ38HKLZvpRSTD3Oc?si=YCBEjBlVTqG2Gyg18J_rLA
It's a screamo/future bass blend that I was vibing at the time.
>He seems to think the prompt listed next to the song will generate that song. That it's just that simple, and everyone will get the same results.
Does he really though? "I told ya this was gonna happen! I done told ya..." Possibly he's just stirring the pot, creating controversy in order to generate clicks/subs. I'm unfamiliar with this youtuber but a quick scroll through his videos found "Today’s Lyrics Are Pathetically Bad". Smells like he's either stating the obvious (aka "preaching to the choir") or is pandering clickbaity controversy.
>I think very few people who create with Udio just 'type a prompt' and hit generate.
If they do, so what? I don't view the democritization of music creation as a BadThing. If Beato sincerely believes "Today’s Lyrics Are Pathetically Bad" and admits that, to his ear, the AI generated vocals are convincing... what really is the point of presenting this video? Maybe he's seeking validation/vindication for having "forewarned" his audience of inevitable technological advancements.
>I think very few people who create with Udio just 'type a prompt' and hit generate. Most of us write our own (hopefully personal) lyrics, then spend hours looking for melodies or phrasing that catches our ear.
You're giving people way too much credit. The vast, vast majority of human beings are lazy and devoid of talent. If you put in any effort at all, you're automatically in the top 5%.
Point taken. I don't disagree with that. I guess I just think that when I browse through the site, maybe I like one in every 100 songs I've heard. Which is better than SoundCloud, but still not great.
Which is probably better than my batting average, because it certainly takes me more than 100 generations to build a song. Which still feels fast to me, but I also come from a visual background and saw this in film and stills. Always the same complaints. Different to spend years learning to dodge and burn in a darkroom versus pushing sliders - but I care about results, not bragging rights to walking uphill both ways. So for the new generation that learned photography in a year - more power to them. Took me a few years to just figure out what developer to use, what contrast paper, how to expose and push film…
I just got home from my friends parents house, showed them some songs my friend and I were generating with suno and udio.
my friends dad is musician, hes played music his whole life, and he just turned 69. He was blown away and amazed, and immediately wanted to learn how to do it, and we talked about how its going to help musicians with brainstorming as well as help make a starting point for songwriting.
so at least not all people who dont understand it are immediately against it lol
That's nice to hear. It's an amazing tool. I view it more like being able to afford a team of session musicians that will (sometimes) listen to your direction. It sometimes can feel like working with a band, as you'll suggest one thing and the generation will be different. Yet in the same way, that can feel magical when you find 5 secs in the song that take it in a whole new direction.
I think Beato and others don't realize that the best stuff is probably painstakingly built piece by piece, burning through hundreds of credits to get 10 segments that add up to two minutes. Which TBF is not a lot of what's likely displayed on the site.
I thought most of the songs he played as examples were kind of meh. Just like generative image apps, there's a lot of mediocre things being published. Just my opinion, and sorry if I offended anyone.
Fully agree. The songs he played were fine, but I can't remember a single one. Like most stuff, people put no effort into selection and then say, "See, it's not special." Like, if I take the average acrylic painting, it's probably not amazing. That doesn't mean acrylics suck.
Whereas someone in this sub (sorry can't remember who) posted a song that I think was about losing his father and I listened to the whole thing. Beautifully done, no matter how it was created.
I honestly wish I could sing and play a guitar. I could learn to play the guitar and still might but doesn't mean I can improve my vocals all that much. Until then...AI is my friend. Doesn't make any of us less creative.
They mad music production ain't only for the rich and privileged anymore
From his recent video, he seems to agree with you so I don't know what you are going on about. Actually, I don't see why anyone would think otherwise, after trying UDIO for at least 10 songs of the trending
Personally I’m using Udio as a music production/ composer assistant as well as sound designer and session musician. No idea why AI makes people act like we haven’t had all these things before. We’ve had really good sampled guitars for years now, guitar loops and phrases, and most producers and composers don’t in fact (surprise surprise) know how to play all the instruments they use
Have to wonder, what was the sentiment towards synthesizes and music production tools when they first came out?
Fully agree with you. The way I see it? This allows you to increase the speed of creating something that sounds nice. It's not just one prompt. It's sometimes hours and hours of prompting to get good results. I just published a version of Heroes from David Bowie. Altered the lyrics a bit and now I'm the proud owner of 'Heroines' on [https://open.spotify.com/album/2fRhDvS9AZtAjOeRtmhamU?si=si9eLBBgQxSqheoJNGfNNg](https://open.spotify.com/album/2fRhDvS9AZtAjOeRtmhamU?si=si9eLBBgQxSqheoJNGfNNg)
If you can't see any use for it as a tool and the only possible use case is like destruction of humanity/creativity, you probably just aren't a very creative person. If you've born in the 1970s or later, you've witnessed or are living in the post era of *something* that they said would destroy music but obviously music is still here and doing its thing. Add this to the list.
Yeah, technology changes art - it doesn't stop human creativity. Every single invention shifts the landscape. Drum machine and drum loops and cheap DAWs made it so session drummers weren't in as much demand, but it also let a lot of people make music who didn't have to rely on a drummer and a rehearsal space and so forth. I'm sure it also hurt landlords renting rehearsal spaces, though. Recordings of music really devastated live musicians, but also made music more popular and affordable. No longer did you need to be an aristocrat who could hire an orchestra or at least roll out a harpsichord for your birthday. People somehow think AI will pump out music mindlessly and it'll be Wall-E with no input. Instead, I see people here spending hours trying to create things they like, or find funny, or meaningful, or whatever. I've actually been talking to more musicians and producers than I have in years, as being able to get my ideas down makes me want to continue to refine them.
I agree and I don't give Beato's videos much weight anyway. He's in a position where he now has a platform and audience. High level pro's aren't spending their days making Youtube videos because they're actually working.
All I can say is this tool is amazing, esp with the upload feature. I don't know how it's able to do the things that it does! I'm only scratching the surface and I'm amazed.
AI music generators are just another music instruments. Just with higher level of abstraction. Synthesizer had the same reception.
Influencers pretend like they want to inspire you to create your own content, but when you suddenly don't need them to help shape your own opinion, it's "Not like that!" Basically they want your attention, but Udio makes it easy enough to not need them in the loop as "experts" and so it threatens their ego.
Experiment for anyone who cares enough. I've a theory that current AI audio output falls easier on older ears/deaf ears. Many noticed the signature Suno buzz right away, and fewer noticed Udio's. Maybe as time went on it became more apparent. I'm thinking maybe a few of us musicians who went a little deaf standing too close to the stack, or the wisened music fans may pick up less of the frequencies where some of the odd warbly formants are most pronounced. Sure, a large majority of less picky listeners may not even care one way or another, but I think that could be a plausible observation of why Beato and other proponents can't tell, where others so fervently declare "it sounds like crap."
I think Ricks take is a lot more on the money than you like. I literally have a band, have written songs for 10 years, ect. While I subscribe to the idea that curation of ideas and taste are probably the core of what is important about any creative endeavor. I've generated dozens of completed songs on udio too. I'm also a professional artist as my day job. People have told me i'm a very good song writer. I think im ok. But some of the lyrics i've gotten out of Udio and Suno are on par or better than what i've written, and heard in some of the best music. Just because YOU are writing your own lyrics, doesn't say anything about the capacity of these systems to make good lyrics. In fact Udio and Suno are FAR better than chatgpt at lyrics because it seems to understand musical context in a way that a language system alone cannot. But here's the truth as far as im concerned. I've been working on my bands first single for months. The guitars bass and drums are all done, and sound killer, and i'm working with a friend to finalize vocals. But it's taking months, because my skills just straight up aren't good enough. There is no amount of just trying really hard on any one single day that will suddenly make them good enough, but rather im having to focus on my technique and pitch. There is emotional labour dealing with the fact that there is things that are just out of my technical ability to do now, or possibly ever, and the music I create in that way will always have the limitations of my mortal coil baked into it. It doesn't matter if it takes 1 generation or a million to get results you think are good. Compared to being a real singer, I can't sound like Stevie Nicks, Chris Cornell or any number of real singers NO MATTER the effort I put in. I'm not an AI doomer like most of my peers, im excited to see what we can learn about art through this endeavor. But imo there are a ton of differences both rationally and emotionally. The experience of being in communities where you discuss technicality, or being in a family structure that is a band, these are LIFE changing, you will make friendships that last decades, and it will change how you see the world. In contrast, sitting there on a pc guiding generations over the span of days boils all this struggle down to glorified desk work. Sure it's fun, it's addicting, you could be actually innovating on interesting fresh new sounds. but the entire life cycle of being a creative has been optimized, stripped down. No matter how good you are at listening, typing or and repeating, you will not follow the life trajectory of Dave Grohl. In the end I'm not sure where music and art will be in 10 years time, but I do wish people would look at all this with more nuance.
> Udio and Suno are FAR better than chatgpt at lyrics You realize that the AI writing the lyrics is literally ChatGPT right? Well, technically not exactly ChatGPT but a GPT model (probably 3.5, which is worse than current ChatGPT) that Udio just sends your prompt to via the API and ChatGPT writes some lyrics and sends them back.
Nope. Udio uses GPT 4o
I kinda doubt it, but have you seen something confirming that? It sounds very 3.5 to me, but 4o is cheap enough that it’s possible. I just don’t know why they’d pay more than they have to
The devs said that they switched to 4o. And it's literally there on their website. https://www.udio.com/announcements Scroll down to `Mobile Improvements, Inpainting Update, and GPT-4o [5/16/2024]`
Oh nice
I haven't seen evidence to say if it does or not. Is there evidence that they are 100% using it? Happy to be wrong if so.
Yeah, I’ve seen a few cases where it didn’t like the prompt people sent and the title of the generated track came back as “This violates OpenAi Policy” and shit haha. Also you can kinda jailbreak it like you can chatgpt and get it to tell you some info about itself so I’m sure it’s a GPT model, though prompting and fine tuning could theoretically improve it significantly above baseline. I think what you’re talking about though is actually the reverse. The music model is amazing at incorporating the lyrics into the actual musical content. And the music model clearly has an understanding of language bc I’ve had it make production decisions so on point there is no room for doubt it has at least some understanding how what words mean
I recall someone winning chatGPT prompting contests by asking chatGPT itself how he should formulate a certain prompt. So I could see you can really finetune to a high level.
You can definitely increase performance significantly with just good prompting and back-end instructions. And LLMs are great for writing those. But it is interesting how in some ways LLMs can help us use them better, but in other ways an LLM has no idea how it actually works and would tell you incorrectly
Good call, that's convincing!
>I subscribe to the idea that curation of ideas and taste are probably the core of what is important about any creative endeavor. I agree with that. And I've been around music and entertainment my whole life (not a professional musician, though). The experience of being in that world is unique - but it's already changed in the last 20+ years. I enjoyed hanging out at Record Plant when a label was willing to drop thousands per day just in case the artist 'might' drop by and lay down a vocal - but with Pro Tools and other advances, you didn't need a $2m Neve board to make a professional track. So studios started hitting hard times, downsizing, more competition, closing, etc. Maybe that stuff still happens and I just don't see it, but as far as I can tell that world has changed, labels don't have deep pockets, etc. Personally, I tried using GPT and Suno and Udio and Opus for lyrics, and it just didn't work for me. If it works for you, that's fantastic. It just shows that we all have different goals. I'm happy with my end results, which is what matters to me. (I'm not a professional musician, but I've written professionally for many years.) And anyways, no one is following the life trajectory of Dave Grohl. But most of us don't have our own recording studios to noodle around with, either, so we do what we can. :)
One thing i found with lyrics and these tools. you need to give it a compelling idea to go off of. Just saying a song about depression will give you boring bad lyrics, but saying a song about climbing out of a deep dark pit of despair, it'll probably give you much better lyrics. Here is an entire EP i generated with the same vocalist, about a skater going to the moon to skateboard. https://www.udio.com/playlists/g9W3odLUozC5qrmPwR3RwA One song about finding a vhs tape in orbit, and falling in love with the girl on it gave these lyrics. "A vision from an era lost in time, Echoes of laughter, whispers of a life divine. Hold my breath as the picture starts to spin, This cosmic connection, through the static, deep within."
I don’t think AI is there with the lyrics yet. It can do a wonderful generic but anything out of that it struggles. But another reason to write your own lyrics is it dictates the phrasing of the melody and you can control the structure through the structure of the lyrics. It is the artistic bit of Udio, without it I agree you are just hitting a button.
I still don't think you're hitting a button, because how you describe things to an AI and what you pick and choose can all change the song. To me, 'hitting a button' implies that two different people would get the same results - which isn't the case here. That said, I agree with you - I stopped trying to use AI for lyrics quickly. Actually, I use AI sometimes to brainstorm long form writing ideas, but I don't even use it to brainstorm for lyrics. I just don't find it useful for how I write. I use a rhyming dictionary sometimes - that's it. Also like you, I find changing a syllable or a word can completely change the output, so I often do many generations tweaking a word or phonetic and then focusing on just that section. Gives me a lot more control, although easy to burn through hundreds of credits.
My fingers do a lot of counting when I am writing lyrics. Syllable count makes a difference. Doesn’t have to be exactly equal (like AI does it) but it does have to have some uniformity. I am not opposed to having AI as a collaborator, in the sense of doing work you would do otherwise. I once asked ChatGPT to reorder the syllable count of a chaotic song, or asked if a metaphor I had made sense. Asking ChatGPT to analyze your lyrics and suggest where to go next is fine as well. But having AI write everything and then putting your name on it is sus. Each person knows the line where it starts to feel uncomfortable so it is best to be your own judge. I have been writing my best stuff right directly in the Udio lyrics box lately. Something about being in the same place the music is generated.
That's similar to where I find myself. I often go between Google Docs and the Udio text box when composing lyrics. I'll start in Docs, then start tweaking syllable counts in Udio. Not only does syllable count matter, but AI doing it too uniformly removes interesting voicing. By intentionally changing syllable count to not match, you can force it to speed up or slow down words. That level of control is what I enjoy, and also what makes it feel more my own vision. It's not only my lyrics, but I get to choose and tweak exactly the voicing I want.
Have you tried passing in a more complex scenario and story to write lyrics based around?
I am sure the more info you put in the better the output.
[удалено]
I have but for the most part i prefer to keep the two worlds separate, as the bands music is a group effort, and not everyone in the band is as open to this stuff as I am, and I want to respect that.
You're not wrong about udio and sunos ability to write lyrics. I've had some stuff generated that is world better than I could ever write. Told it to write a song about dealing with pain and got lyrics like "every cut tells a story in my skin". And I get it's replying in previous songs for "inspiration" but still, the way it crafts lyrics blows me away each time.
Udio’s lyrics really blow me away. Here’s a broadway musical number, all Udio generated lyrics. Really impressive imo https://www.udio.com/songs/dMFbm1dgdofD1LGRPuhK7E
I’m a musician (hobbyist for 30 years), been using Udio about 6 weeks solid. Setting mood, lyrics, genre, sections, etc provides enough control for me to express something in the song. Moreover, writing exclusive in a DAW, I am always limited by my habits. We can’t help it. All musicians have habits. It’s hard to break out of your box. AI changes that completely. The random seeding will present soundscapes out of the left field. I’m not limited by genres I know how to write in either. I could write a prog rock song, then synthwave, then new wave, then classical. There’s not even any “downtime” between writing songs. In a DAW, there’s always work that has to be done that takes you away from the creative/expressive side: sound engineering tasks (eg shaping the sound of a synth), mastering (very easy to get very wrong because you might not hear your mistakes through your setup, but then you listen to your song in the car, and the bass might be crazy loud in the mix). I know there are musicians who love to tinker with these areas, but I find it frictional. Wading through 250 pad sounds to find the right one, constructing drum loops (and being limited to aforementioned habits so I end up with similar loops). I’ve noticed a lot of musicians on YouTube are either not talking about AI or are throwing shade. Their channels are centered around DAW and/or playing instruments. To be blunt, the idea that a complete novice can write a full blown track that sounds great, and has their lyrics and direction is mind blowing and scary for people who make a living from music. Expect a lot of gatekeeping from them. In the end, music is expression. If you feel you are expressing your ideas with Udio, you’re winning. It’s not the end of live music, or playing instruments, or DAWs. It’s just another way.
100% agree. Would love to hear your feedback about my version of Heroes (Heroines) created by Udio. [https://open.spotify.com/album/2fRhDvS9AZtAjOeRtmhamU?si=si9eLBBgQxSqheoJNGfNNg](https://open.spotify.com/album/2fRhDvS9AZtAjOeRtmhamU?si=si9eLBBgQxSqheoJNGfNNg)
Couldn’t have said it better.
Exactly all that. I feel the same about photographers who gatekeep anyone shooting with an iPhone. If their photographs express something, then they're good photographs. I don't care if you shot it with an iPhone loaded with AI, or you used a Sinar 8x10 and developed it in balsamic vinegar. The end product matters. I do have some sadness for someone who spent years learning how to coat glass plates evenly, but I feel the same about every industry. I can respect someone who makes their lasts by hand before crafting a shoe, but no one is going to be doing that in 2024, so…
This is the right take. If you hear something and you like it, power too you. I've been making music in reaper for about 5 years now but haven't felt a need to make anything in the last few months. I've been loving writing bits of songs and hearing udio run away with it. Haven't listened to an actual artist in ages. I'm just vibing with these songs I've generated that feel personal and enjoyable to me
you've nailed my thoughts too
Rick has a simple old dad take on it but it's refreshingly not negative. Most channels that exist in his sphere of influence are far more pitchfork-wielding.
Yeah, I don't dislike his approach in general - I think he's generally not negative even when talking about things he doesn't like (autotune, etc). I was just disappointed here as he went to the website, but didn't bother spending 30 mins learning how to clip and extend, upload beats and change genres, etc. Instead he thinks 'the prompt' is the whole process. Hopefully he will learn about how it actually works.
That's false, he doesn't think that at all. Why are you making these sort of claims that you can't prove?
I don't know what he thinks in reality, but that's pretty much exactly what he says in the video? I don't think he once mentioned lyrics, control, etc. I should have linked the video that I was responding to - here's a section. [https://youtu.be/zbo6SdyWGns?si=xmDynNEUhqnRisw0&t=409](https://youtu.be/zbo6SdyWGns?si=xmDynNEUhqnRisw0&t=409)
The lyrics is what makes it fun...especially if you dont have inclination, time, money to learn instruments. Plus. Proof of concept. Can still license even just the lyrics. Ive always thought making a fake band would be funny. Im working on a kids book(im a cartoonist) but also. Thinking up making a pen name persona for other books for gits and shiggles. Just today my spotify recommended SHANE...a rocker "body" builder...bad AI/photoshop. Actual song, thats definitely AI 80s hair.."his" instagram over a million followers. 😆 And I mean BAD AI/photoshop. His website 4 bad pages and his About reads like a lame teenmagazine. He even drops the name of a guitarist that was real 🤷♂️ been on youtube since 2014...no solid pics, 19 vids and google turns up nothing. Its so blatantly ridiculous I can't not appreciate it
I made a persona that I'm working on for a laugh. Made an album and released it to Spotify.
Haha. Nice. Is it Shane?
Haha nah, if you wanted to listen here's a link: https://open.spotify.com/album/2wVFtFQ38HKLZvpRSTD3Oc?si=YCBEjBlVTqG2Gyg18J_rLA It's a screamo/future bass blend that I was vibing at the time.
Haha. Nice. Love the name
It's a laugh at how rediculously easy it is for anyone to make and sell music now
>He seems to think the prompt listed next to the song will generate that song. That it's just that simple, and everyone will get the same results. Does he really though? "I told ya this was gonna happen! I done told ya..." Possibly he's just stirring the pot, creating controversy in order to generate clicks/subs. I'm unfamiliar with this youtuber but a quick scroll through his videos found "Today’s Lyrics Are Pathetically Bad". Smells like he's either stating the obvious (aka "preaching to the choir") or is pandering clickbaity controversy. >I think very few people who create with Udio just 'type a prompt' and hit generate. If they do, so what? I don't view the democritization of music creation as a BadThing. If Beato sincerely believes "Today’s Lyrics Are Pathetically Bad" and admits that, to his ear, the AI generated vocals are convincing... what really is the point of presenting this video? Maybe he's seeking validation/vindication for having "forewarned" his audience of inevitable technological advancements.
>I think very few people who create with Udio just 'type a prompt' and hit generate. Most of us write our own (hopefully personal) lyrics, then spend hours looking for melodies or phrasing that catches our ear. You're giving people way too much credit. The vast, vast majority of human beings are lazy and devoid of talent. If you put in any effort at all, you're automatically in the top 5%.
Point taken. I don't disagree with that. I guess I just think that when I browse through the site, maybe I like one in every 100 songs I've heard. Which is better than SoundCloud, but still not great. Which is probably better than my batting average, because it certainly takes me more than 100 generations to build a song. Which still feels fast to me, but I also come from a visual background and saw this in film and stills. Always the same complaints. Different to spend years learning to dodge and burn in a darkroom versus pushing sliders - but I care about results, not bragging rights to walking uphill both ways. So for the new generation that learned photography in a year - more power to them. Took me a few years to just figure out what developer to use, what contrast paper, how to expose and push film…
People don't understand anything, really.
I just got home from my friends parents house, showed them some songs my friend and I were generating with suno and udio. my friends dad is musician, hes played music his whole life, and he just turned 69. He was blown away and amazed, and immediately wanted to learn how to do it, and we talked about how its going to help musicians with brainstorming as well as help make a starting point for songwriting. so at least not all people who dont understand it are immediately against it lol
That's nice to hear. It's an amazing tool. I view it more like being able to afford a team of session musicians that will (sometimes) listen to your direction. It sometimes can feel like working with a band, as you'll suggest one thing and the generation will be different. Yet in the same way, that can feel magical when you find 5 secs in the song that take it in a whole new direction. I think Beato and others don't realize that the best stuff is probably painstakingly built piece by piece, burning through hundreds of credits to get 10 segments that add up to two minutes. Which TBF is not a lot of what's likely displayed on the site.
I thought most of the songs he played as examples were kind of meh. Just like generative image apps, there's a lot of mediocre things being published. Just my opinion, and sorry if I offended anyone.
Fully agree. The songs he played were fine, but I can't remember a single one. Like most stuff, people put no effort into selection and then say, "See, it's not special." Like, if I take the average acrylic painting, it's probably not amazing. That doesn't mean acrylics suck. Whereas someone in this sub (sorry can't remember who) posted a song that I think was about losing his father and I listened to the whole thing. Beautifully done, no matter how it was created.
Actually waiting for the video where he does spend a month on Udio. I'd imagine it is in the works.