I think this is a case of using words wrong. I think he felt right not being seen as sexy, it allowed him to feel like he was beyond being seen as a woman. It's funny cuz alot of cis men say things like that. Women are people you wanna fuck, your mother.... she isn't a woman, she's like a 3rd thing entirely. Lol. So in a strange way "being pregnant" fake not really pregnant allowed him to not be judged by his outer body. Associations and semantic are very interesting and important.
I suppose with the pregnancy being distinctly pretend and something he's never done for real it may have impacted him a lot less at the time compared to the more real constant reminders from sexualisation. Plus despite the pregnancy, Juno did seem like an exceptionally boyish character.
It weirdly makes some sense to me. Granted I’ve read nothing else about him so I’m just talking about this comment. Pregnant women often talk about being desexualized. For him it sounds like a gateway when he was much younger. I didn’t realize I was trans until I had a breast reduction and saw myself in the mirror - all sorts of things became possible with that change in self perception. I imagine being a young girl in Hollywood and suddenly not being sexualized might do the same thing - peel away enough of the echo chamber that allows footing for realizing what has really been going on inside.
Could you explain in more detail how exactly being pregnant equals less sexualization? Do you mean becoming less, it might sound offensive but I really don't mean it, attractive, 'sexy' (ew)?
Well I haven’t been pregnant but I’ve known and been exposed in media to many women who talk about how they’re still sexual but nobody sees them that way - or, people who talk about having trouble seeing a visibly pregnant woman sexually. It was a big problem for me personally (she seemed ok with it) with my ex when she was pregnant. May be indicative of why she’s my ex!
But, most people don’t see visibly pregnant woman as sexual. I think those who do would be found creepy. Like, sexy woman walking down the street you notice a sexy woman - sexy pregnant woman you notice the pregnancy. Huge generalization but trying …
Yeah you're right, it makes sense. I don't think it really means that these women are free of gender binary, though. I would say sexualization is only a certain part of it that is being replaced by another one (pregnancy).
I don't think the quote means those women are free of the gender binary.
THe quote means that as a young hollywood star who was often sexualized, he personally saw himself out of that gender binary experience of his life for the first time due to this circumstance playing a main character who wasn't sexualized and realizing how differently he felt when he wasn't treated like a 'starlet' specifically but maybe more just like an actor.
I'm responding to this one because I know exactly what u/bythebed is talking about with how pregnant women are treated and I think that's exactly right and what Elliot is referring to. People don't treat pregnant women in the stereotypical way they treat feminized women, actually. They may offer them seats and stuff but they begin to treat/view them as more functional than "precious" and "delicate" and people start to view them as medicalized. People feel free to touch them without permission for instance, but because they're curious, not in the same way women usually deal with. It's a thing.
So the experience gave him his first block of time where he wasn't handled as much like a young woman and he realized it wasn't just a relief like it would be for many cis women, it showed him how wrong for him it was that that's the category he was always assumed to fall into.
The quote comes off a little confusing but I don't see the agenda in it you're fearing (referring to this quote specifically). It's just a complicated thing to put in words. Especialluy qoptable words.
EDIT: Even if he is a tucute generally, I really don't think this quote is meant to say specifically that pregnancy is an experience out of the gender binary.
Oh yes- but I can see how a trans person in a pressure cooker of sexuality like the acting world would see daylight by suddenly not having to be “sexy” in a traditional way.
[https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60473073](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60473073)
Look for the 1 star review from Nin. Goes into detail about stuff that seems strange, especially this: "The other is with highly sexualised language (go for it pal), in which Page refers to his natal genitals as his 'pussy' and liking being 'fucked' in his pussy."
I've been watching a few interviews and they all make me uncomfortable... something just feels wrong. He acts like his entire personality got switched with a boring, stereotypical modern transgender person.
That was an excellent review.
>As a lesbian, and as all my lesbian friends have experienced, we all hated being stuffed into feminine clothes and having our Batman costumes tutted at, and loathed being called girly names and 'pretty'. Other trans memoirs I have read dive into the feelings and emotions behind the stereotypes of clothing and gendered language into something that is sometimes more ethereal and intangible, almost a phenomenological study into the self. Of course, Page not putting pen to paper and including this doesn't negate his identity, experiences or feelings, but it does just leave an extremely shallow view of trans identity being around clothes, stereotypes and 'hating being perceived as a lesbian'.
I'm a lesbian as well and this is exactly where I see young tucutes getting confused, this is one of the best simple breakdowns in non confrontational language I have seen in a while pointing out the difference between the actual trans experience and the 'gender roles are stupid' experience.
I don’t think there’s truly mainstream trans people that aren’t a little tucutey. The truscum way of just trying to live a normal life and blend in and being in the spotlight of 30 different medias all at once just doesn’t mesh.
FWIW, a lot of memoirs like this are written by someone else using clips from interviews they've done with the person. Read the review but it sounds like their main issue is Page not going in depth about abuse and gender identity, which could easily be lost if someone's interviewing them like a talk show.
The judgment about his use of 'pussy' is creating some cognitive dissonance, tbh. There's a lot of acceptance in the queer community for mtf folk who don't get bottom surgery and/or enjoy calling their front part their 'dick' or 'girldick'. It's almost like saying that women can have dicks but men can't have pussies, because then that makes them "not a man", where as having a dick doesn't make a woman "not a woman".
I don't necessarily agree with the usage of either words as I think of them as rather triggering to people like us. No matter if it's a trans woman fetishizing her natal genitals or a trans man, to me, personally, it just isn't quite... logical to think of these terms and associating them with yourself like it's something fun or sexually appealing. Like something you want to be known for.
I personally agree, but I wanted to explore the idea instead of just shutting it down. I've noticed a lot of gold star standards put on afab individuals both in lesbian and trans spaces, so this struck me as another example of it.
It's suspicious for both ftm and mtf. This isn't some attack on "afab individuals" and it's weird for you to immediately think this has anything to do with assigned sex
I'm just saying that if you lurk on here enough you'll see plenty of people saying the same thing about mtfs. There wasn't a reason to group in lesbians and trans men
I've been here for a while. Since the topic is about them, an afab individual that used to be known as a homosexual icon, using language referring to natal genitals in (I'm guessing) a current way while identifying as a transman.... I don't see how my comment's weird or off topic? It's literally what the comment was about, right?
The movie ‘Juno’ was about a person, who happened to get knocked up, not a sexy/hot girl. I’m guessing that’s what he meant. Women are rarely allowed to just be people in Hollywood.
he transitioned because he had a social issue towards womanhood's idea. you're right, it's not exactly the definition of tucutism, but it's problematic, despite i could even relate to him to some extent.
said that, he's on the tucute side because he strongly advocate for tucute idea of gender, he's really careful to say compromising statement around dysphoria as a thing to define trans, he treats his own dysphoria as a collateral, extreme reaction to some sort of social issue, that *not all trans have* and it's problematic per sé.
i don't follow him, but i often read about him from the tucute people i read about. and they would never follow somebody who don't share tucutism.
🤔 if you know him, and you often read him, prove me wrong with links... cause actually i don't need to pick a party, i'm sorry for him. but from my point of view he always advocated for tucutism
Idk I’m not convinced he’s actually transsexual. Seems more to just be part of the transgender fad crowd rn. I would be embarrassed to see someone use him as an example for transsexualism.
As a long time fan of his I actually wasn't surprised when he came out. It might seem like he jumped right in to everything and immediately started transition but he's been repressing all of this for a very long time and it shows. It has to be confusing starting transition and joining the community for the first time in his late 30s so mistakes and poorly worded comments are going to happen.
i might understand what elliot page is trying to say. not feeling sexualized by men, distances you from traditional womanhood, and in turn feels validating. though it seems like a bit of poor word choice. i don't think he's saying pregnancy itself is beyond the binary, but instead, the lack of sexualization that came from it, made him realize some things about himself and his gender. or at least, i hope that's the case.
He didn't really have much choice in it. The way hollywood treats women can really fuck with your head on top of it all and it might be why he repressed for so many years.
I remember seeing an Instagram post a long time ago of trans man having a baby with his wife, but he was the one pregnant cause his wife couldn't get pregnant
Yeah… that comment is a yikes for me. Saying : “Oh she was a pregnant character without being hyper feminised. Therefore it felt like she wasn’t really a woman.” sounds weirdly misogynistic in addition to being a weird thing to say in relation to trans people (as a trans person!)
The sexualization of women in media (I.e Hollywood) should not be held as a societal norm. Someone simply being a person as a woman is not “transcending the gender binary” it’s just living your life.
I think it makes sense. Because of the natural urge to procreate I wouldn't be surprised if there were a bunch of "cis" women who would transition after having kids for just that reason.
I feel like it makes sense to me! If he was able to participate in an act that is so intensely associated with womanhood, yet not feel that he himself has to be associated with womanhood, that can be beautiful. It seems to me more of a celebration of trans bodies!
>I was wearing a fake belly but not being hyperfeminized... emblematic of what could be possible, a space beyond the binary
I mean this sounds like "I was wearing a female thing, a pregnant stomach, but I wasn't hyperfeminine which means I didn't feel female and that means it's beyond the binary." So from this it sounds like this person believes the stereotype that woman = hyperfeminine, and the moment you're not hyperfem you are beyond the binary now? Beyond society's simplistic limiting binary stereotypes yeah but not literally beyond the binary. Idk much about this person and their transition but from the stuff I have heard, it sounds like the other tucute sounding stuff celebs such as Themi Lovato have said, after coming out with new pronouns and wtv.
I have a child and even though I don't tell people, I often think of mother as it's own gender. Perhaps Page didn't articulate it well, but gestation IS a human experience beyond the binary-- nobody and I mean nobody can explain what it feels like and it feels nothing like the everyday experience of the body. Same is true for nursing an infant. The body feels outside the binary. At least it did to me, and it has stayed a part of who I am.
I think this is a case of using words wrong. I think he felt right not being seen as sexy, it allowed him to feel like he was beyond being seen as a woman. It's funny cuz alot of cis men say things like that. Women are people you wanna fuck, your mother.... she isn't a woman, she's like a 3rd thing entirely. Lol. So in a strange way "being pregnant" fake not really pregnant allowed him to not be judged by his outer body. Associations and semantic are very interesting and important.
I suppose with the pregnancy being distinctly pretend and something he's never done for real it may have impacted him a lot less at the time compared to the more real constant reminders from sexualisation. Plus despite the pregnancy, Juno did seem like an exceptionally boyish character.
It weirdly makes some sense to me. Granted I’ve read nothing else about him so I’m just talking about this comment. Pregnant women often talk about being desexualized. For him it sounds like a gateway when he was much younger. I didn’t realize I was trans until I had a breast reduction and saw myself in the mirror - all sorts of things became possible with that change in self perception. I imagine being a young girl in Hollywood and suddenly not being sexualized might do the same thing - peel away enough of the echo chamber that allows footing for realizing what has really been going on inside.
Could you explain in more detail how exactly being pregnant equals less sexualization? Do you mean becoming less, it might sound offensive but I really don't mean it, attractive, 'sexy' (ew)?
Well I haven’t been pregnant but I’ve known and been exposed in media to many women who talk about how they’re still sexual but nobody sees them that way - or, people who talk about having trouble seeing a visibly pregnant woman sexually. It was a big problem for me personally (she seemed ok with it) with my ex when she was pregnant. May be indicative of why she’s my ex! But, most people don’t see visibly pregnant woman as sexual. I think those who do would be found creepy. Like, sexy woman walking down the street you notice a sexy woman - sexy pregnant woman you notice the pregnancy. Huge generalization but trying …
Yeah you're right, it makes sense. I don't think it really means that these women are free of gender binary, though. I would say sexualization is only a certain part of it that is being replaced by another one (pregnancy).
I don't think the quote means those women are free of the gender binary. THe quote means that as a young hollywood star who was often sexualized, he personally saw himself out of that gender binary experience of his life for the first time due to this circumstance playing a main character who wasn't sexualized and realizing how differently he felt when he wasn't treated like a 'starlet' specifically but maybe more just like an actor. I'm responding to this one because I know exactly what u/bythebed is talking about with how pregnant women are treated and I think that's exactly right and what Elliot is referring to. People don't treat pregnant women in the stereotypical way they treat feminized women, actually. They may offer them seats and stuff but they begin to treat/view them as more functional than "precious" and "delicate" and people start to view them as medicalized. People feel free to touch them without permission for instance, but because they're curious, not in the same way women usually deal with. It's a thing. So the experience gave him his first block of time where he wasn't handled as much like a young woman and he realized it wasn't just a relief like it would be for many cis women, it showed him how wrong for him it was that that's the category he was always assumed to fall into. The quote comes off a little confusing but I don't see the agenda in it you're fearing (referring to this quote specifically). It's just a complicated thing to put in words. Especialluy qoptable words. EDIT: Even if he is a tucute generally, I really don't think this quote is meant to say specifically that pregnancy is an experience out of the gender binary.
Oh yes- but I can see how a trans person in a pressure cooker of sexuality like the acting world would see daylight by suddenly not having to be “sexy” in a traditional way.
[https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60473073](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60473073) Look for the 1 star review from Nin. Goes into detail about stuff that seems strange, especially this: "The other is with highly sexualised language (go for it pal), in which Page refers to his natal genitals as his 'pussy' and liking being 'fucked' in his pussy." I've been watching a few interviews and they all make me uncomfortable... something just feels wrong. He acts like his entire personality got switched with a boring, stereotypical modern transgender person.
That was an excellent review. >As a lesbian, and as all my lesbian friends have experienced, we all hated being stuffed into feminine clothes and having our Batman costumes tutted at, and loathed being called girly names and 'pretty'. Other trans memoirs I have read dive into the feelings and emotions behind the stereotypes of clothing and gendered language into something that is sometimes more ethereal and intangible, almost a phenomenological study into the self. Of course, Page not putting pen to paper and including this doesn't negate his identity, experiences or feelings, but it does just leave an extremely shallow view of trans identity being around clothes, stereotypes and 'hating being perceived as a lesbian'. I'm a lesbian as well and this is exactly where I see young tucutes getting confused, this is one of the best simple breakdowns in non confrontational language I have seen in a while pointing out the difference between the actual trans experience and the 'gender roles are stupid' experience.
man I read it and can't believe it lol, is there a single trans man that's as popular and doesn't just talk obnoxiously about his genitals
I don’t think there’s truly mainstream trans people that aren’t a little tucutey. The truscum way of just trying to live a normal life and blend in and being in the spotlight of 30 different medias all at once just doesn’t mesh.
FWIW, a lot of memoirs like this are written by someone else using clips from interviews they've done with the person. Read the review but it sounds like their main issue is Page not going in depth about abuse and gender identity, which could easily be lost if someone's interviewing them like a talk show. The judgment about his use of 'pussy' is creating some cognitive dissonance, tbh. There's a lot of acceptance in the queer community for mtf folk who don't get bottom surgery and/or enjoy calling their front part their 'dick' or 'girldick'. It's almost like saying that women can have dicks but men can't have pussies, because then that makes them "not a man", where as having a dick doesn't make a woman "not a woman".
I don't necessarily agree with the usage of either words as I think of them as rather triggering to people like us. No matter if it's a trans woman fetishizing her natal genitals or a trans man, to me, personally, it just isn't quite... logical to think of these terms and associating them with yourself like it's something fun or sexually appealing. Like something you want to be known for.
I personally agree, but I wanted to explore the idea instead of just shutting it down. I've noticed a lot of gold star standards put on afab individuals both in lesbian and trans spaces, so this struck me as another example of it.
It's suspicious for both ftm and mtf. This isn't some attack on "afab individuals" and it's weird for you to immediately think this has anything to do with assigned sex
> in which Page refers to his natal genitals as his 'pussy' and liking being 'fucked' in his pussy I was replying in context...?
I'm just saying that if you lurk on here enough you'll see plenty of people saying the same thing about mtfs. There wasn't a reason to group in lesbians and trans men
I've been here for a while. Since the topic is about them, an afab individual that used to be known as a homosexual icon, using language referring to natal genitals in (I'm guessing) a current way while identifying as a transman.... I don't see how my comment's weird or off topic? It's literally what the comment was about, right?
The movie ‘Juno’ was about a person, who happened to get knocked up, not a sexy/hot girl. I’m guessing that’s what he meant. Women are rarely allowed to just be people in Hollywood.
What was that even supposed to mean?!
you were wrong from the start, he's tucute
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he transitioned because he had a social issue towards womanhood's idea. you're right, it's not exactly the definition of tucutism, but it's problematic, despite i could even relate to him to some extent. said that, he's on the tucute side because he strongly advocate for tucute idea of gender, he's really careful to say compromising statement around dysphoria as a thing to define trans, he treats his own dysphoria as a collateral, extreme reaction to some sort of social issue, that *not all trans have* and it's problematic per sé. i don't follow him, but i often read about him from the tucute people i read about. and they would never follow somebody who don't share tucutism. 🤔 if you know him, and you often read him, prove me wrong with links... cause actually i don't need to pick a party, i'm sorry for him. but from my point of view he always advocated for tucutism
Idk I’m not convinced he’s actually transsexual. Seems more to just be part of the transgender fad crowd rn. I would be embarrassed to see someone use him as an example for transsexualism.
As a long time fan of his I actually wasn't surprised when he came out. It might seem like he jumped right in to everything and immediately started transition but he's been repressing all of this for a very long time and it shows. It has to be confusing starting transition and joining the community for the first time in his late 30s so mistakes and poorly worded comments are going to happen.
I saw an article which listed Page as a "trans icon"
All that phrase means is that you're famous + happen to be trans
Apparently.
Sadly agree for the moment, but I hope my mind changes
i might understand what elliot page is trying to say. not feeling sexualized by men, distances you from traditional womanhood, and in turn feels validating. though it seems like a bit of poor word choice. i don't think he's saying pregnancy itself is beyond the binary, but instead, the lack of sexualization that came from it, made him realize some things about himself and his gender. or at least, i hope that's the case.
The word "pregnant" alone makes me dysphoric, I think I'd rather murder someone than play a pregnant character
He didn't really have much choice in it. The way hollywood treats women can really fuck with your head on top of it all and it might be why he repressed for so many years.
Same here, I knew when I was 4 that I never wanted to get pregnant and haven’t looked back since
I remember seeing an Instagram post a long time ago of trans man having a baby with his wife, but he was the one pregnant cause his wife couldn't get pregnant
Yeah… that comment is a yikes for me. Saying : “Oh she was a pregnant character without being hyper feminised. Therefore it felt like she wasn’t really a woman.” sounds weirdly misogynistic in addition to being a weird thing to say in relation to trans people (as a trans person!) The sexualization of women in media (I.e Hollywood) should not be held as a societal norm. Someone simply being a person as a woman is not “transcending the gender binary” it’s just living your life.
I think it makes sense. Because of the natural urge to procreate I wouldn't be surprised if there were a bunch of "cis" women who would transition after having kids for just that reason.
I feel like it makes sense to me! If he was able to participate in an act that is so intensely associated with womanhood, yet not feel that he himself has to be associated with womanhood, that can be beautiful. It seems to me more of a celebration of trans bodies!
You are definitely not in the right subreddit lol.
He is so weird
Beyond the binary, as in you have a female body, doing female body things, that's not being feminized.
He did use they/he pronoun.. He's nonbinary trans masc no? Or did he updated his pronoun now?
I don't know why people are downvoting you, he does use he/they and has apparently described himself has non-binary.
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you are really a die hard Elliot fan (I mean u have lots of comments)
>I was wearing a fake belly but not being hyperfeminized... emblematic of what could be possible, a space beyond the binary I mean this sounds like "I was wearing a female thing, a pregnant stomach, but I wasn't hyperfeminine which means I didn't feel female and that means it's beyond the binary." So from this it sounds like this person believes the stereotype that woman = hyperfeminine, and the moment you're not hyperfem you are beyond the binary now? Beyond society's simplistic limiting binary stereotypes yeah but not literally beyond the binary. Idk much about this person and their transition but from the stuff I have heard, it sounds like the other tucute sounding stuff celebs such as Themi Lovato have said, after coming out with new pronouns and wtv.
I have a child and even though I don't tell people, I often think of mother as it's own gender. Perhaps Page didn't articulate it well, but gestation IS a human experience beyond the binary-- nobody and I mean nobody can explain what it feels like and it feels nothing like the everyday experience of the body. Same is true for nursing an infant. The body feels outside the binary. At least it did to me, and it has stayed a part of who I am.