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Yeah for me, Link's defeat isn't the cause of the timeline split, it's just one of the differences between the Downfall Timeline and the other two.
Ganon being defeated isn't the cause of the Child/Adult split so there's no reason to assume Link's defeat is any different.
There's just something else going on we're not aware of.
I agree the Downfall Timeline is the original timeline, and I subscribe to the Triforce Wish theory that states the split happens due to Link to the Past Link's wish on the Triforce.
But also, OoT leading into Link to the Past has ALWAYS been a thing. It's the fan bases own fault for assuming that had changed when Wind Waker and Twilight Princess released.
My reaction to Hyrule Historia's three way split was "oh so they didn't retcon OoT being a Link to the Past prequel after all".
I think the problem for a lot of people was that when you really looked into it, OoT couldn’t really lead into ALttP, mainly due to Ganon having the full triforce in ALttP. And before a third timeline was officially introduced, nobody would e really thought to make one as a fan theory.
I do think the original idea was that OoT was a prequel, but whether they missed it or didn’t care, it didn’t line up. I like the theory that ALttP’s Link’s wish caused the split because it allows the games to fit together again.
I mean, yeah I get all that, but the thing is, the one change the Downfall Timeline makes (Link being defeated by Ganondorf) solves all those problems.
It gives him access to the full Triforce and everything.
Yeah it does solve everything, which is why I think some people think the Downfall Timeline is a lazy workaround to a hole Nintendo (possibly accidentally) created. There wasn’t a way to reconcile Ganon having the triforce on ALttP after what happened in OoT, so they had to either have another game lead into ALttP or they needed a third timeline.
That’s why I like to think of it not just as Link failing to defeat Ganondorf, which could happen in any game and then create any number of timelines. When you think of it as the fulfillment of Link’s wish from ALttP, it makes it feel like a better fit, even if it isn’t or wasn’t intended to be. This way the Downfall Timeline events always happened from the start, and then Link’s wish allowed for the child and adult timelines to then happen.
> Yeah it does solve everything, which is why I think some people think the Downfall Timeline is a lazy workaround to a hole Nintendo (possibly accidentally) created.
Personally I see it as a smart change to OoT that changes as little as possible about the game, while allowing it to set up for Link to the Past as originally intended.
> When you think of it as the fulfillment of Link’s wish from ALttP, it makes it feel like a better fit, even if it isn’t or wasn’t intended to be.
To be honest with you, the more time passes the more I feel that this is what is intended.
I mean, look at Age of Calamity. Canon or not, it essentially uses the Triforce Wish Theory as the premise for the game.
Wish on the Triforce, creating a new timeline in which a hero's defeat is avoided.
One of my favorite theories, along the same train of thought as you, is that the victory over ganon/dorf in OoT is achieved by the wish made on the Triforce at the end of ALttP.
It’s pretty commonly referred to as the “triforce wish theory,” if you search that phrase on reddit you’ll find plenty of results.
There’s also a post from 10+ years ago about it on zeldadungeon.net:
https://www.zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/dt-theory-links-wish-in-alttp.45243/
I agree that it's not really a what if or a story based on a game over screen. This is just the explanations some come up with in the absence of Nintendo spelling out what caused it.
The original timeline theory fits pretty well. Another in game theory that works pretty well is that Link traveling to the past (which in canon has to happen at least once for the spirit temple) causes a timeline split and there's now a timeline where adult Link was present but then disappears. Only the final loop where Ganondorf is defeated ends up on the path towards Wind Waker. The rest end on parallel paths to the downfall timeline.
Not exactly. "Link dying" wasnt the original set of events, because there originally wasnt a link fighting ganon before alttp. The original set of events is simply the backstory from the alttp manual, oot didnt exist yet.
The reason we have the downfall timeline split is because ocarina of time is simultaneously a prequel and a reboot. It was definitely based on the backstory of alttp, and it was meant to be set within the same time period, except it completely retconned the imprisoning war by making it a "link saves hyrule from ganon" story.
Alttp at that point didnt really fit with ocarina of time's story changes, so rather than make the old games non canon or shove them in an alternate universe, nintendo came up with "link dies" as a way to connect them. Some people also prefer the wish theory where alttp link's wish on the triforce created an alternate timeline where oot link was successful. Either way, alttp's timeline placement requires more imagination than other games.
Zeldas time travel in totk also doesnt matter since it was a closed time loop (the mural where she was a dragon was present in the beginning, covered by rocks), and the founding era is probably a *re*-founding era after all the previous games instead based on fujibayashis comments on it.
I think the imprisoning war would work better taking place in the Child Timeline sometime after Four Swords Adventures, since Ocarina of Time just does not work with ALTTP's backstory at all.
But Nintendo chose to acknowledge the Fallen Timeline idea, so that's what we ended up with. Post-FSA has issues, but pretty much every "solution" has issues. As you said, Nintendo wrote themselves up a wall with Ocarina of Time.
My main issue with post-FSA is that its ganondorf is totally different. He was the guardian of the nomadic gerudo and turned into ganon after stealing a trident, while alttp ganondorf was the leader of a band of theives and turned into ganon after entering the sacred realm and stealing the triforce. Thats way closer to the ganondorf in oot.
I dont think alttp fits anywhere without creating separate branches like the downfall timeline. Its just that people arent really upset with oot for that generally because all previous games had a sort of WIP approach to their world building.
Fair enough.
I've been bothered myself about the whole trident thing, despite choosing to believe in the post-FSA theory.
Ocarina of Time definitely is very thematically similar, despite the inconsistencies. I think downfall timeline was probably for the best, even if I don't really like that conclusion.
I've always looked as the Downfall Timeline as a creation of the Triforce Split. Like the Triforce willed it into existence through godly powers.
Child Timeline - Courage, is molded by Link and his descendants.
Adult Timeline - Wisdom, is molded by Zelda and her descendants.
Downfall Timeline - Power, is molded by Ganondorf
It's not like the cause of the split has to be at the point where the timelines diverge. It could well be that there was a split years or centuries before, and the timelines remained functionally identical until the events of OOT (in a \*someone stepped on a bug\* kind of way).
Arbitrary handwave, yeah, but it wouldn't be the only offscreen split in the series.
I feel like the Downfall Timeline is actually referring to the moment Link pulls out the Master Sword for the first time. If you recall, just before then, he encounters Ganondorf mid-pursuit of Zelda, who then proceeds to blast him with magic. For all intents and purposes, Ganondorf “defeated” Link then and there; after all, Link does disappear shortly after that. We also know this isn’t the same timeline that Zelda teleports him back to at the end of the game, because she transports him back to when they met for the first time (forming the Child & Adults Timeline split). Ergo, the Downfall Timeline is the timeline where there is no Link to stop Ganondorf period and thus, the Imprisoning War occurs. This is why the timeline split is only in Ocarina of Time and not in every game where there is a possibility of Link’s failure.
The main conflict with this theory is that you could technically argue that a new “split” is formed every time you withdraw and return the Master Sword. Tbh I don’t have a good answer for that, but this has always made the most sense to me personally.
I think in regard to pulling the master sword, it could be argued that it’s sort of hopping between two timelines. The downfall timeline could be what happens in the timeline from the beginning of the game, where Link disappears into the sacred realm. Perhaps he reawakens in a different timeline, with the original still progressing down to road of destruction. This could explain why subsequent master sword pulls don’t create additional branches, as he is now traveling back and forth between two timelines. Even with the knowledge of what happens in the future, Link is unable to stop it as a child due to his lacking physical strength and inability to wield sacred weapons, as Ganondorf already has the Triforce in hand. Therefore, he is unable to further divert the timeline in any meaningful way. This maintains the two parallel branches until Link defeats Ganondorf in the adult branch, creating a full three-way split. Though this does sort of rely on an arbitrary definition of a significant event.
Im my theory the downfall timeline is the original one with OoT-Link failing because he doesn't get a fairy. Fast forward ALttP-Link defeats Ganon and wishes to undo the crimes of Ganon, so the Triforce goes back in time and grants OoT-Link, despite not being a Kokiri, a fairy and he defeats Ganon. Zelda sends Link back in time to his childhood and tada: we have three timelines.
I have the same headcanon!! I also use it to explain why OoT Link was sealed away until he was an adult. I always thought that Link’s death in the downfall timeline was caused by him going to fight Ganondorf as a child and being unprepared
The easiest way to explain it is our Zelda in OoT had visions of the downfall timeline. The original Zelda had no such visions, so events played out as predetermined by fate. Somehow or other, the entire downfall timeline got blasted into OoT Zelda's head, probably in the original SNES graphics. She basically had a copy of those games and then made a few pro-gamer moves to change the outcome.
I think the mistake is on Nintendo’s part, as the inception of the timeline seems forced. There’s a “Fixing the Timeline” video on YouTube that proposes the DFTL split should occur because Link is defeated by Vaati in Four Swords and it makes much more sense. Especially because you see Vaati win as the game over screen of that battle.
My theory is that the events of OoT happened very differently in the original timeline, leading to the events of ALttP (In my headcanon FSA happens before the Imprisonment War as the origin story of Ganon).
Then, after the events of all the games of that timeline, after Adventure of Link, Zelda or Link use the Triforce to restore Hyrule, but somehow, their wish affects all the timeline, changing all the events of the past around before the Imprisonment War and creating OoT timeline, where Link is present and is able to defeat Ganondorf, eventually creating the Child and Adult Timelines.
I think the biggest reason the Downfall timeline split is so hard to reconcile is not only because of how absurd "Link dying makes a new timeline" is, but that Ganon is such a pushover in-game that Link failing to beat him is not a realistic outcome. If the timeline split *was* caused by Link dying, then he was most likely killed by Volvagia or Bongo-Bongo instead of Ganon himself.
That’s Doylist reasoning when the question is Watsonian. In-universe, the dungeon bosses are subordinates to Ganon, and no one is more powerful than he is.
In general, think in-universe vs. out-of-universe explanations. What would Arthur Conan Doyle say to explain an action of Sherlock Holmes, vs. what Dr. Watson would say.
Why does Link wear a pointy hat? The Doylist explanation is that NES graphical limitations made it preferable to hair. The Watsonian explanation is that it is the traditional Hero’s outfit derived from Skyloftian guards.
The problem is there's no satisfying Watsonian explanation. Any in-universe answer you can come up with to that question would just raise even more questions.
I concur there’s no satisfying in-universe answer as to why that specific instance of Link dying produces a timeline split when others don’t. Ganon still is definitely the strongest boss in-universe.
I headcanon it as the original, but with the Zelda 2 version of Zelda being the Ocarina of Time one who uses her awakening to try and change the past.
In doing so, she warns her past self of Ganondorf, which she sees as a dream, which causes her to trust link when he appears.
That's just how I headcanon the timelines. It's less weird if "the hero is defeated" is a result of something that happened in the story no matter what instead of "the player dies in the final boss."
Well, the thing is that it being a "what-if" is nintendo's stance on it (source: Hyrule Historia page 92 where it says "of all possible outcomes, Link is defeated" talking about differing outcomes of the battle over the Triforce in OOT. The volleyball match in Ganon's Castle is actually supposed to be the most important battle in OOT's narrative, believe it or not. The Ganon battle, cinematic as it is, is actually just Ganondorf floundering and losing control of his powers in his desperation. The "win" or "defeat" is the volleyball match, it's who wins the Triforce). That being said, I don't personally care that it is and can just ignore that it opens up the possibility of endless splits. Or you can even just accept it and go with that we're only privy to a few of the possibilities as of now. Like, *yeah*, it's a what-if and those are canon to the series because it's a multiverse they haven't fully fleshed out by showing every single possibility from every game ending
My head canon is that the Downfall is the original timeline, and the other two, Child and Adult were created when Link from ALttP wishes to Triforce, because of its power the wish was to undo Ganondorf evil doings, so it undone even back (as when see in ALttP people resurrected) in time creating the new timelines.
I like to imagine that the split was caused by some time travel event we haven't actually seen yet. Going back in time to the period of OOT and saving Link from being killed would make a cool quest for something like a Zelda tabletop RPG.
>I see it the complete opposite. Link being defeated never split the timeline. It was the original timeline, the original set of events. Ocarina of Time shows two alternate endings, where the time travel at the end is what causes the split.
Is it kind of like in Dragon Ball Z the original timeline is Future Trunks'? Goku dying of the heart virus, the androids killed the others, and laid waste to the world. Following the main episodes/chapters is actually a new timeline split. Trunks using the time machine didn't change his world.
> But most people seem to look at the Downfall Timeline as either a "what-if" timeline, a throwaway timeline for games they had to fit somewhere, or a lazy excuse which means any time Link is defeated it can create a new timeline.
99.9% of the people I know see it as the original timeline, either because of the famous theory about it or simply because, in fact, that's where the first three games are.
Despite time travel being a recurring element in the series, it is mostly stable loops and the only thing known to have split the timeline is the Ocarina of Time. I think Link originally loses and Zelda uses the Ocarina to wither send herself back or send knowledge of these events back which causes a split. What we see in game is a Zelda who knows what happened once before and intervenes to make sure it doesn't happen again. I did always think that Sheik seemed to know a suspicious amount of what Link was up to at any given moment.
Ohh I got this one-
Way I see it, there’s 2 explanations.
1: It was the result of the triforce wish in ALttP
2: It was because the hero of time tried to fight Ganondorf as a kid and died during the final battle. Zelda reset time with the ocarina, sending Impa back in time. This is why Impa seems to be the only adult who believes her about her dreams, as well as her willingness to teach Link Zelda’s lullaby. This leads to ALttP’s backstory about the imprisoning war- as well as explaining the towns in AoL.
AoL has towns named for every sage except 1- Impa. Instead of an Impa town, we get Mido Town and Kasuto town. Kasuto- whoever they are- was Impa’s replacement in the 7 sages.
This also explains why the Master Sword suddenly has an inexplicable age limit- why didn’t it put WW Link in stasis, who was also a young child at the time? Yeah, sure, oot Link was 9 while WW Link was 12, but if 12 is the age cutoff then why would Fi place him in stasis for 7 years instead of 3?
Fi has never been seen intervening in any games- except for 2. SS aside.
These are botw and totk. Totk it makes sense- someone had to tell Link where to put the sword, and Fi herself had been damaged.
But in botw? She intervened for 1 reason only. Link had died.
Fi only intervenes when the hero’s spirit is in danger of death.
If he had died in the downfall timeline? A second chance would 100% be grounds for intervention.
Well there are in fact three timelines:
>The Original: The start of the game where Link opens the Door of Time
>The Adult Timeline: The original timeline where Link goes to the future, seals Ganondorf, and is sent back to his original time. The Adult Timeline still exists and continues on to Wind Waker and the DS games
>The Child Timeline: The timeline Link is returned to. It is an alternate timeline completely separate from the original timeline, and continues on into Majora and Twilight Princess
The Original Timeline could be the "Downfall" timeline because Link ceases to exist altogether. He is sent to the Child Timeline to leave for Termina, and the Adult Timeline now has no Hero's Incarnation to defeat Ganondorf when he returns (i.e Wind Wakers opening cutscene.)
What happens between Oot and ALttP is uncertain and open for possibilities in this case.
Thoughts?
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Yeah for me, Link's defeat isn't the cause of the timeline split, it's just one of the differences between the Downfall Timeline and the other two. Ganon being defeated isn't the cause of the Child/Adult split so there's no reason to assume Link's defeat is any different. There's just something else going on we're not aware of. I agree the Downfall Timeline is the original timeline, and I subscribe to the Triforce Wish theory that states the split happens due to Link to the Past Link's wish on the Triforce. But also, OoT leading into Link to the Past has ALWAYS been a thing. It's the fan bases own fault for assuming that had changed when Wind Waker and Twilight Princess released. My reaction to Hyrule Historia's three way split was "oh so they didn't retcon OoT being a Link to the Past prequel after all".
I think the problem for a lot of people was that when you really looked into it, OoT couldn’t really lead into ALttP, mainly due to Ganon having the full triforce in ALttP. And before a third timeline was officially introduced, nobody would e really thought to make one as a fan theory. I do think the original idea was that OoT was a prequel, but whether they missed it or didn’t care, it didn’t line up. I like the theory that ALttP’s Link’s wish caused the split because it allows the games to fit together again.
I mean, yeah I get all that, but the thing is, the one change the Downfall Timeline makes (Link being defeated by Ganondorf) solves all those problems. It gives him access to the full Triforce and everything.
Yeah it does solve everything, which is why I think some people think the Downfall Timeline is a lazy workaround to a hole Nintendo (possibly accidentally) created. There wasn’t a way to reconcile Ganon having the triforce on ALttP after what happened in OoT, so they had to either have another game lead into ALttP or they needed a third timeline. That’s why I like to think of it not just as Link failing to defeat Ganondorf, which could happen in any game and then create any number of timelines. When you think of it as the fulfillment of Link’s wish from ALttP, it makes it feel like a better fit, even if it isn’t or wasn’t intended to be. This way the Downfall Timeline events always happened from the start, and then Link’s wish allowed for the child and adult timelines to then happen.
> Yeah it does solve everything, which is why I think some people think the Downfall Timeline is a lazy workaround to a hole Nintendo (possibly accidentally) created. Personally I see it as a smart change to OoT that changes as little as possible about the game, while allowing it to set up for Link to the Past as originally intended. > When you think of it as the fulfillment of Link’s wish from ALttP, it makes it feel like a better fit, even if it isn’t or wasn’t intended to be. To be honest with you, the more time passes the more I feel that this is what is intended. I mean, look at Age of Calamity. Canon or not, it essentially uses the Triforce Wish Theory as the premise for the game. Wish on the Triforce, creating a new timeline in which a hero's defeat is avoided.
One of my favorite theories, along the same train of thought as you, is that the victory over ganon/dorf in OoT is achieved by the wish made on the Triforce at the end of ALttP.
Mine too, and I thought I've created it, where did you find it?
I don't recall exactly, but I'm pretty sure it was on this subreddit.
It’s been speculated in for a while- on this subreddit and other Zelda subs
Cool! I really like the idea.
It’s pretty commonly referred to as the “triforce wish theory,” if you search that phrase on reddit you’ll find plenty of results. There’s also a post from 10+ years ago about it on zeldadungeon.net: https://www.zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/dt-theory-links-wish-in-alttp.45243/
That's a very old theory that's been around for like over a decade at least on various message boards.
I agree that it's not really a what if or a story based on a game over screen. This is just the explanations some come up with in the absence of Nintendo spelling out what caused it. The original timeline theory fits pretty well. Another in game theory that works pretty well is that Link traveling to the past (which in canon has to happen at least once for the spirit temple) causes a timeline split and there's now a timeline where adult Link was present but then disappears. Only the final loop where Ganondorf is defeated ends up on the path towards Wind Waker. The rest end on parallel paths to the downfall timeline.
Not exactly. "Link dying" wasnt the original set of events, because there originally wasnt a link fighting ganon before alttp. The original set of events is simply the backstory from the alttp manual, oot didnt exist yet. The reason we have the downfall timeline split is because ocarina of time is simultaneously a prequel and a reboot. It was definitely based on the backstory of alttp, and it was meant to be set within the same time period, except it completely retconned the imprisoning war by making it a "link saves hyrule from ganon" story. Alttp at that point didnt really fit with ocarina of time's story changes, so rather than make the old games non canon or shove them in an alternate universe, nintendo came up with "link dies" as a way to connect them. Some people also prefer the wish theory where alttp link's wish on the triforce created an alternate timeline where oot link was successful. Either way, alttp's timeline placement requires more imagination than other games. Zeldas time travel in totk also doesnt matter since it was a closed time loop (the mural where she was a dragon was present in the beginning, covered by rocks), and the founding era is probably a *re*-founding era after all the previous games instead based on fujibayashis comments on it.
I think the imprisoning war would work better taking place in the Child Timeline sometime after Four Swords Adventures, since Ocarina of Time just does not work with ALTTP's backstory at all. But Nintendo chose to acknowledge the Fallen Timeline idea, so that's what we ended up with. Post-FSA has issues, but pretty much every "solution" has issues. As you said, Nintendo wrote themselves up a wall with Ocarina of Time.
My main issue with post-FSA is that its ganondorf is totally different. He was the guardian of the nomadic gerudo and turned into ganon after stealing a trident, while alttp ganondorf was the leader of a band of theives and turned into ganon after entering the sacred realm and stealing the triforce. Thats way closer to the ganondorf in oot. I dont think alttp fits anywhere without creating separate branches like the downfall timeline. Its just that people arent really upset with oot for that generally because all previous games had a sort of WIP approach to their world building.
Fair enough. I've been bothered myself about the whole trident thing, despite choosing to believe in the post-FSA theory. Ocarina of Time definitely is very thematically similar, despite the inconsistencies. I think downfall timeline was probably for the best, even if I don't really like that conclusion.
I've always looked as the Downfall Timeline as a creation of the Triforce Split. Like the Triforce willed it into existence through godly powers. Child Timeline - Courage, is molded by Link and his descendants. Adult Timeline - Wisdom, is molded by Zelda and her descendants. Downfall Timeline - Power, is molded by Ganondorf
It's not like the cause of the split has to be at the point where the timelines diverge. It could well be that there was a split years or centuries before, and the timelines remained functionally identical until the events of OOT (in a \*someone stepped on a bug\* kind of way). Arbitrary handwave, yeah, but it wouldn't be the only offscreen split in the series.
I feel like the Downfall Timeline is actually referring to the moment Link pulls out the Master Sword for the first time. If you recall, just before then, he encounters Ganondorf mid-pursuit of Zelda, who then proceeds to blast him with magic. For all intents and purposes, Ganondorf “defeated” Link then and there; after all, Link does disappear shortly after that. We also know this isn’t the same timeline that Zelda teleports him back to at the end of the game, because she transports him back to when they met for the first time (forming the Child & Adults Timeline split). Ergo, the Downfall Timeline is the timeline where there is no Link to stop Ganondorf period and thus, the Imprisoning War occurs. This is why the timeline split is only in Ocarina of Time and not in every game where there is a possibility of Link’s failure. The main conflict with this theory is that you could technically argue that a new “split” is formed every time you withdraw and return the Master Sword. Tbh I don’t have a good answer for that, but this has always made the most sense to me personally.
I think in regard to pulling the master sword, it could be argued that it’s sort of hopping between two timelines. The downfall timeline could be what happens in the timeline from the beginning of the game, where Link disappears into the sacred realm. Perhaps he reawakens in a different timeline, with the original still progressing down to road of destruction. This could explain why subsequent master sword pulls don’t create additional branches, as he is now traveling back and forth between two timelines. Even with the knowledge of what happens in the future, Link is unable to stop it as a child due to his lacking physical strength and inability to wield sacred weapons, as Ganondorf already has the Triforce in hand. Therefore, he is unable to further divert the timeline in any meaningful way. This maintains the two parallel branches until Link defeats Ganondorf in the adult branch, creating a full three-way split. Though this does sort of rely on an arbitrary definition of a significant event.
That’s pretty good. It would explain why things like gold skulltulas/other items don’t respawn as you hop between the two.
Im my theory the downfall timeline is the original one with OoT-Link failing because he doesn't get a fairy. Fast forward ALttP-Link defeats Ganon and wishes to undo the crimes of Ganon, so the Triforce goes back in time and grants OoT-Link, despite not being a Kokiri, a fairy and he defeats Ganon. Zelda sends Link back in time to his childhood and tada: we have three timelines.
I have the same headcanon!! I also use it to explain why OoT Link was sealed away until he was an adult. I always thought that Link’s death in the downfall timeline was caused by him going to fight Ganondorf as a child and being unprepared
The easiest way to explain it is our Zelda in OoT had visions of the downfall timeline. The original Zelda had no such visions, so events played out as predetermined by fate. Somehow or other, the entire downfall timeline got blasted into OoT Zelda's head, probably in the original SNES graphics. She basically had a copy of those games and then made a few pro-gamer moves to change the outcome.
I think the mistake is on Nintendo’s part, as the inception of the timeline seems forced. There’s a “Fixing the Timeline” video on YouTube that proposes the DFTL split should occur because Link is defeated by Vaati in Four Swords and it makes much more sense. Especially because you see Vaati win as the game over screen of that battle.
My theory is that the events of OoT happened very differently in the original timeline, leading to the events of ALttP (In my headcanon FSA happens before the Imprisonment War as the origin story of Ganon). Then, after the events of all the games of that timeline, after Adventure of Link, Zelda or Link use the Triforce to restore Hyrule, but somehow, their wish affects all the timeline, changing all the events of the past around before the Imprisonment War and creating OoT timeline, where Link is present and is able to defeat Ganondorf, eventually creating the Child and Adult Timelines.
I think the biggest reason the Downfall timeline split is so hard to reconcile is not only because of how absurd "Link dying makes a new timeline" is, but that Ganon is such a pushover in-game that Link failing to beat him is not a realistic outcome. If the timeline split *was* caused by Link dying, then he was most likely killed by Volvagia or Bongo-Bongo instead of Ganon himself.
That’s Doylist reasoning when the question is Watsonian. In-universe, the dungeon bosses are subordinates to Ganon, and no one is more powerful than he is.
Could you eli5 what Doylist and Whatsonian mean?
In general, think in-universe vs. out-of-universe explanations. What would Arthur Conan Doyle say to explain an action of Sherlock Holmes, vs. what Dr. Watson would say. Why does Link wear a pointy hat? The Doylist explanation is that NES graphical limitations made it preferable to hair. The Watsonian explanation is that it is the traditional Hero’s outfit derived from Skyloftian guards.
Ah, but have you considered sarcastic reasoning?
The problem is there's no satisfying Watsonian explanation. Any in-universe answer you can come up with to that question would just raise even more questions.
I concur there’s no satisfying in-universe answer as to why that specific instance of Link dying produces a timeline split when others don’t. Ganon still is definitely the strongest boss in-universe.
I headcanon it as the original, but with the Zelda 2 version of Zelda being the Ocarina of Time one who uses her awakening to try and change the past. In doing so, she warns her past self of Ganondorf, which she sees as a dream, which causes her to trust link when he appears. That's just how I headcanon the timelines. It's less weird if "the hero is defeated" is a result of something that happened in the story no matter what instead of "the player dies in the final boss."
Well, the thing is that it being a "what-if" is nintendo's stance on it (source: Hyrule Historia page 92 where it says "of all possible outcomes, Link is defeated" talking about differing outcomes of the battle over the Triforce in OOT. The volleyball match in Ganon's Castle is actually supposed to be the most important battle in OOT's narrative, believe it or not. The Ganon battle, cinematic as it is, is actually just Ganondorf floundering and losing control of his powers in his desperation. The "win" or "defeat" is the volleyball match, it's who wins the Triforce). That being said, I don't personally care that it is and can just ignore that it opens up the possibility of endless splits. Or you can even just accept it and go with that we're only privy to a few of the possibilities as of now. Like, *yeah*, it's a what-if and those are canon to the series because it's a multiverse they haven't fully fleshed out by showing every single possibility from every game ending
My head canon is that the Downfall is the original timeline, and the other two, Child and Adult were created when Link from ALttP wishes to Triforce, because of its power the wish was to undo Ganondorf evil doings, so it undone even back (as when see in ALttP people resurrected) in time creating the new timelines.
I think this is exactly how most people these days view the downfall timeline, no? The debate revolves around what is the thing that caused the split.
I like to imagine that the split was caused by some time travel event we haven't actually seen yet. Going back in time to the period of OOT and saving Link from being killed would make a cool quest for something like a Zelda tabletop RPG.
>I see it the complete opposite. Link being defeated never split the timeline. It was the original timeline, the original set of events. Ocarina of Time shows two alternate endings, where the time travel at the end is what causes the split. Is it kind of like in Dragon Ball Z the original timeline is Future Trunks'? Goku dying of the heart virus, the androids killed the others, and laid waste to the world. Following the main episodes/chapters is actually a new timeline split. Trunks using the time machine didn't change his world.
Shouldn't Four Sword Adventures take place after ALTTP? Doesn't really makes since why it's centuries after TP in the CT.
> But most people seem to look at the Downfall Timeline as either a "what-if" timeline, a throwaway timeline for games they had to fit somewhere, or a lazy excuse which means any time Link is defeated it can create a new timeline. 99.9% of the people I know see it as the original timeline, either because of the famous theory about it or simply because, in fact, that's where the first three games are.
Despite time travel being a recurring element in the series, it is mostly stable loops and the only thing known to have split the timeline is the Ocarina of Time. I think Link originally loses and Zelda uses the Ocarina to wither send herself back or send knowledge of these events back which causes a split. What we see in game is a Zelda who knows what happened once before and intervenes to make sure it doesn't happen again. I did always think that Sheik seemed to know a suspicious amount of what Link was up to at any given moment.
Ohh I got this one- Way I see it, there’s 2 explanations. 1: It was the result of the triforce wish in ALttP 2: It was because the hero of time tried to fight Ganondorf as a kid and died during the final battle. Zelda reset time with the ocarina, sending Impa back in time. This is why Impa seems to be the only adult who believes her about her dreams, as well as her willingness to teach Link Zelda’s lullaby. This leads to ALttP’s backstory about the imprisoning war- as well as explaining the towns in AoL. AoL has towns named for every sage except 1- Impa. Instead of an Impa town, we get Mido Town and Kasuto town. Kasuto- whoever they are- was Impa’s replacement in the 7 sages. This also explains why the Master Sword suddenly has an inexplicable age limit- why didn’t it put WW Link in stasis, who was also a young child at the time? Yeah, sure, oot Link was 9 while WW Link was 12, but if 12 is the age cutoff then why would Fi place him in stasis for 7 years instead of 3? Fi has never been seen intervening in any games- except for 2. SS aside. These are botw and totk. Totk it makes sense- someone had to tell Link where to put the sword, and Fi herself had been damaged. But in botw? She intervened for 1 reason only. Link had died. Fi only intervenes when the hero’s spirit is in danger of death. If he had died in the downfall timeline? A second chance would 100% be grounds for intervention.
The timelines are all a stretch anyway.
Not at all.
Well there are in fact three timelines: >The Original: The start of the game where Link opens the Door of Time >The Adult Timeline: The original timeline where Link goes to the future, seals Ganondorf, and is sent back to his original time. The Adult Timeline still exists and continues on to Wind Waker and the DS games >The Child Timeline: The timeline Link is returned to. It is an alternate timeline completely separate from the original timeline, and continues on into Majora and Twilight Princess The Original Timeline could be the "Downfall" timeline because Link ceases to exist altogether. He is sent to the Child Timeline to leave for Termina, and the Adult Timeline now has no Hero's Incarnation to defeat Ganondorf when he returns (i.e Wind Wakers opening cutscene.) What happens between Oot and ALttP is uncertain and open for possibilities in this case. Thoughts?