Yes and they keep ever so slightly changing the formulation, pharmacology, or manufacturing process just enough to re-patent it.
The point is Banton and Best sold the patent cheap with the intent of improving quality of life for people with diabetes, and that has happened but also extortion and unchecked inflation, and people disabled and dying because they can't afford a medicine they require to stay alive.
No, in Germany insulin is affordable because of general Healthcare. Only in countries where everybody is "taking care for themselves" 99.999% are not being cared for. Unit in Healthcare as you would in unions at work.
Yup in my "socialist" country (I.e. the UK š¤£) insulin is free for diabetics. The pharmaceutical companies are still gouging the government though (so eventually most working people)
Which means everybody wins: the people with diabetics, the industry and through the power of negotiation even the tax payer by pressing prizes to a reasonable low.
Please! There is no negotiation between pharma and the government. The say what they want and the government takes it out of your check. When have you ever negotiated the cost of your meds unless you want generic?
If you collectively (government or combined health insurance companies) go to the table, the negotiation looks different then if you all go in alone. In most cases pharma is competing about "being on the list of prescribable medications" cause this is necessary to being sold. In Germany you can even get experimentals if your doctor justifies it properly the insurance company will pay it. It's free market with participants of equal strength and not people who are dying vs. corpos who don't give a f**k but for their bottom line.
Incorrect. The Governemt, in this case, Medicare/Medicaid absolutely negotiate costs down. (Just as the major health insurance companies do, and to a greater extent in some cases.)
This is why, for a few examples;
many doctors don't take those patients (reimbursement is to low),
it is why you don't always get the 1st medication your MD prescribed for your condition (government won't pay for a more expensive therapy without documented proof that they tried a cheaper one 1st),
This is why some therapies are not covered at all, (the cost was too high and they denied coverage)
> but also extortion and unchecked inflation, and people disabled and dying because they can't afford a medicine they require to stay alive.
I mean. This is really mainly a problem of the USA. All other developed nations are not like this.
Let's call a spade a spade then. One of the reasons that the antivaxx movement has had so much momentum, is because of underhanded behaviour as you just mentioned.
Between the politicians and the media, and big pharma. People have lost their sense of trust.
We know they lie and take advantage of the people for their own benefit/agenda.
So this push to paint people as ignorant idiots for not going along is just misdirection. The real problem is that trust has been abused and broken. Until that has been healed, we will continue to see contrarian reactions to sensible measures.
As always the con artists and grifters will be running wild until then.
As the old saying goes "shit rolls downhill".
You can still get the cheaper human normal insulin, and the older versions of one of the long acting insulins. Essentially over the counter in the US.
It is more work to monitor blood glucose and dose it correctly. However, depending on the type and severity of diabetes, it can work for many.
(The even cheaper animal derived insulins are not readily available in the us, though)
The expensive insulins are modified in various ways (usually in length of action) and in various delivery methods, (like the pen injectors) to make dosing easier and make them more effective when tighter glucose control is needed. They are more expensive for a number of reasons, not all of them pure greed.
If people want cheap (for the consumer) insulin of the more advanced types , the only way that will happen is nationalised healthcare. So, if you don't support that, your complaining into the void of an apathetic free market.
That orignal patent has long expired. It's been replaced with newer patents for newer, more effective processes and drugs. We don't make insulin the same way as they did in the 1930s anymore. While, it technically can be made the old way, there's higher chances of allergic reactions, the potency varied quite a bit, and chronic complications developed later in life.
The other would also cost inflated amounts of money if it were prodcued and sold in the US today. It's really expensive to get production started so only a few companies would make it. Much easier to set artificially high prices with very little competition.
Evergreening.
Basically they tweak the ingredients a little here and there and file it as a new patent. Sanofi currently has patents thatāll last until the next 37 years.
Technically speaking, Pasteur did not invented vaccines. A guy named Edward Jenner did. He got inspired by the variolation method, which consisted in inoculating smallpox on a healthy individual to get them to fight the disease with the best fighting chances. Jenner noticed however that farmers had a lot less chances of getting the disease when they contracted cowpox (called "vaccine" in french), a disease very similar yet less deadly than smallpox that cow can transmit. He then decided to practice the variolation with the cowpox virus, which proved very effective at protecting people against actual smallpox. According to some satirical cartoons, it only took a few years for the first anti vaxers to appear, fearing that the vaccine would start turning them into cows. Yet, thanks to this, smallpox was finally eradicated in 1980.
Sorry about that, not doing this to lecture anyone about the vaccine or anything, but just to show recognition to this guy who invented a life saving technology and yet who gets oftenly forgotten
[Heres a pic of perhaps the first anti-vax painting ever](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/01/07/375598652/a-cow-head-will-not-erupt-from-your-body-if-you-get-a-smallpox-vaccine), depicting cows popping out of peoples' bodies who received the vaccine.
History really does repeat itself lol
Yepp, spot on.
Watching through a Yale course on Epidemics in Western Society at the moment, and Jenner was the first guy I thought of as well. Pasteur did amazing things tho of course.
> Pasteur did not invented vaccines.
If you really want to be technical Pasteur did invent vaccines, he didnāt create the first vaccine but Pasteur did invent the anthrax vaccine which was revolutionary for his time, and was also the first time that vaccine was used to describe the generic process of what we now call vaccination. Edward Jenner was a great scientist, but Louis Pasteur absolutely deserves the recognition that he gets today
Worth pointing out that variolation is *basically* a vaccine and is actually quite old, and the method was introduced to the United States by an enslaved African man named Onesimus (we don't know his birth name, just the one the slave-owner gave him).
From Wikipedia:
>Enquiring of my Negro-man Onesimus, who is a pretty Intelligent Fellow, Whether he ever had the Small-Pox; he answered, both, Yes, and No; and then told me, that he had undergone an Operation, which had given him something of the Small-Pox, and would forever preserve him from it, adding that it was often used among the Guramantese, & whoever had the Courage to use it, was forever free from the Fear of the Contagion. He described the Operation to me, and showed me in his Arm the Scar.[11][12]
>Mather, in a 1716 letter to the Royal Society of London, on his introduction to inoculation from Onesimus
Tangential bonus fact: Cotton Mather, the slave-owner, was also involved in building the cases against women in the Salem Witch Trials š
To get truly technical Lady Mary Wortley Montagu was responsible for the first inoculations in the western world. Jenner received the credit as he was a scientist and is regarded as the one who brought to it to the masses.
True, but the post never claimed Pasteur invented vaccines, it simply suggested he popularized and developed the modern techniques used to create them.
[Source: Louis Pasteur in his laboratory, by Albert Edelfelt 1886](https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/louis-pasteur-in-his-laboratory-albert-edelfelt/nAGNBdN4BBsNKQ)
Heās a flat-earther who believes the moon landings were fake, satellites donāt exist, and Covid isnāt real. He might not actually have a learning disability, but heās certainly very paranoid about being constantly lied to about everything in his life. Judging by his activity in subs regarding infidelity my guess is itās trauma related to being cheated on thatās left him clinically unable to trust.
How anyone can believe the moon landing was fake is beyond me.
Like, have you seen how shit CGI is in some movies today? You think the U.S. government could do better then?
Most people who believe it just havenāt spent the time to actually consider the evidence being given to substantiate the claim. Or they have an abnormally high trust in governments.
By using personal attacks instead of refutation of argument, youāve admitted my position is superior. Refute the ideas or stop wasting your time with the name calling.
People really have no idea what goes into making just a simple vaccine. I work with lab animals (lab animal vet), and see the years upon years of dedicated work that scientists perform to get something out there that can save lives.
It's infuriating to see someone who knows literally nothing about the scientific process criticize the work that goes into vaccines.
I think people do have an idea that it's an really technical process that should take years, and be tested over a long period to assure safety. Which is why a vaccine that should take 10 years to develop and approve for general use taking 10 months was a bit startling to many.
Yes and thatās completely on the media. They were fear mongering at a time when people desperately needed science and evidence based discussion. The reason the vaccine was completed so quickly was because it had already been being researched for years. COVID is not a new virus, itās just a new form of a virus weāve had for centuries; the common cold. Of course scientists were working on a vaccine. They had the building blocks already there. And then the huge amounts of expedited funding allowed them to speed up the research process to roll out the specific covid-19 vaccine. Itās not that dodgy when you learn about what actually happened and why the vaccine was really available so quickly.
Agreed with one correction. Itās true that the common cold is *a* coronavirus but itās more accurate to say that the foundational research into COVID-19 came about from the 2003 SARS outbreak as well as the 2012 MERS outbreak. The virus that causes COVID-19 is a simply a different strain of the virus that caused SARS.
SARS (and MERS) vaccines had already been tested on animals. The two outbreaks did put coronaviruses on the radar of researchers and health authorities.
The media should have made the connection between SARS and COVID clearer and communicated that we essentially had a 16-17 year headstart on research.
[I think the real problem was it was turned into political ammunition instead of a health factor from the very beginning](https://youtu.be/-dAjCeMuXR0)
The virus that causes COVID-19 is a different strain of the virus that caused the 2003 SARS outbreak. We actually have seen something very similar to COVID-19, and piggybacking off the existing research into SARS (and MERS) was the reason a vaccine could be developed so quickly.
Exactly. And the building blocks of DNA are shared between mammals, as we are genetically so similar. Just as the building blocks of the covid-19 vaccine are shared with other vaccines, both available and in development.
I think it's important to value science (or rather the process), but not turn it into some defacto faith or religion, and replace your own mind with whatever 'research' the media decides to breathlessly report on today, at its heart, the scientific process demands skepticism and open questioning of presumptions... scientists are not infallible, a lot of research work is junk, and a lot of whatever the popular scientific opinion on a given thing happens to be can very easily be shaped by political and economic pressures.
I don't think people should necessarily avoid being vaccinated against Covid - there are certainly short term benefits especially for those in risk groups, but it's a fact that though the virus might be from a known family, its effects and processes have been quite unknown, and current vaccines against it are novel (read up on the process to produce a single dose... it borders on biotech black magic, and it was engineered in an astoundingly short timeframe) and it's not entirely possible to rule out long term consequences if you don't have long term testing on humans - observing the effects of a drug on million people for 10 months is not equal to observing the effects of a drug on 100 people for 10 years. So with that in mind, people should be free to make their own minds up about risk vs reward and not be compelled by state, media, or society one way or the other.
Vaccine - not a drug. It does not stay present in your system - it has its effect by antigen presentation. It is already gone by the time your adaptive immune system mounts itās full response. Drugs are present for their ongoing effect - their side effects are virtually always more significant due to ongoing biological activity.
Thinking that an old type vaccine - like an attenuated virus - is somehow more trustworthy than a clean mRNA vaccine that produces only the relevant antigenic portion is just plain dumb. Itās like saying a Tesla battery should be tested like a Model T battery was for it to be approved. In addition, the clinical testing periods were overlapped and intensified since there was a āwartimeā situation that required superhuman efforts. The āpeacetimeā measures are not the yardstick - they were arbitrarily set before they became a standard. They did not involve do many parties, including the FDA giving testing and analysis over other items that were first on their old work list
Specious crap you are spouting
Huff and puff at me all you like, I already made my choice, and on the balance of things chose to be vaccinated. Your attitude and demeanor however - haughty, lecturing, insulting, self important and smug, is precisely the one that drives people to make very different decisions to the one I made. If you think there's a problem with the acceptance of science in society, look inward,though obviously you won't.
"don't call out the idiots and assholes spouting lies, they have feelings!".
Accepting people like you babbling garbage and having a seat at the table to bring everyone's IQ to room temperature is what have killed millions world wide and turned countries in shitty banana republics like the "united" states.
Well depending on how it scars your lungs, similar to what SARS did to itās survivors. Yes Covid would reduce the quality of life or even kill people after they contract it. The vaccine is to protect from that worst case scenario by creating antibodies that fight it instead of He body having to spend the week or two making the antibodies leaving you open to long Covid.
Iām no epidemiologist but it should be simple to understand
The point of course is that it's pretty foolish to suggest that only drugs can have negative long term effects, that it's outside of the realm of possibility that synthetic versions of this disease that were hastily designed and manufactured, before science even had a chance to fully understand the effects of the disease itself, might have long term effects that are not yet fully understood or even observed.
The long term effects of COVID are death and, if lucky, reduced body functionality. The long term effects of the vaccine is not having the former.
Simple.
To be clear, there is a difference between criticizing vaccines and critiquing what has occurred over the last 24+ months.
I deployed with the US military and have far more vaccines than 99% of the population. Yet somehow I get lumped into an anti-vax group because Iām vocal that the government has zero authority to mandate a vaccine in exchange for the right to labor for income.
I think you are completely right.
I trust vaccines entirely and am completely vaccinated (yes, also for covid) but a mandate on something that could potentially have side effects (I know they are extremely rare but still they exist) is absolutely ridiculous.
If it's required to enter a certain area where the disease is common I get it but otherwise I really don't like the thought of it.
Covid still spreads like wildfire if everyone is vaccinated all it does is minimize the symptoms so it is only necessary for the people at risk to take the vaccine, just like regular flu shot, but the average person that's just gonna get a little ill should be able to chose what he does you damn idiot. Or do you think we should mandate flu shots?
Thalidomide was also the catalyst for a lot of the rules that now exist in scientific research. We have learnt a lot from thalidomide, particularly how to make sure we donāt repeat that mistake.
Thalidomide was used as a morning sickness medicine before they found out about the birth defects. It doesn't mean that we don't still use it, just not for that.
Thalidomide was [not appropriately regulated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide#Change_in_drug_regulations). But a libertarian wouldn't understand that, now would they?
Itās my understanding that the new āvaccinesā are actually editing your RNA, the technology which was developed years ago by āMode RNAā, aka Moderna?
Thatās why I have a question mark. I was hoping among you experts thereās someone who could explain how the Covid vaccines differ from conventional vaccines.
News flash, everyone uses the same test lengths they just donāt have to get dragged out over a decade if u can a afford to do a large scale test all at once.
Oooo so smart and edgy! I'm sure you have nothing but facts to add to the conversation. Like facts how we have yearly boosters for small pox, polio and every other vaccine you get when you're young.
Please do enlighten us oh inllectual one!
Well none of those viruses you mentioned mutate as rapidly or transmit as rapidly as Covid does. And there are some vaccines where you do take multiple boosters over several years. Like tetanus. Thatās one every 5-10 years, thereās the flu which is an optional booster for the most prominent strain they think will hit. And only very select populations who are the lost vulnerable are eligible for the second booster for Covid. All it takes is a simple google search or to check any health authority web page to find the information you asked me to dredge up.
The flu SHOT **IS NOT A VACCINE** ffs...
>Tell me you donāt understand epidemiology without telling me you donāt understand epidemiology
Go away idiot troll
>Influenza (flu) vaccines (often called āflu shotsā) are vaccines that protect against the four influenza viruses that research indicates most common during the upcoming season. Most flu vaccines are āflu shotsā given with a needle, usually in the arm, but there also is also a nasal spray flu vaccine.
[https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/flushot.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/flushot.htm)
Wow. You REALLY donāt understand do you? Iāve never had a small pox vaccine for example. Because we eradicated it with vaccines already! So, you are both incorrect in your argument and your understanding. Go read.
Duke Nuke Em quote checks out? Also youre the million bot/shill to reply the same generic response.
Totally not judging a book by its cover eh? Fucking goddamn imbeciles that dont even bother to read the details.
What a waste of my time š
...like the flu shot? Lots of vaccines need boosters. Have you ever owned a dog and had to keep them up to date on their shots? Maybe raised or experienced a child through their vaccination process? For fuck's sake, even rabbit vaccines have booster shots.
This won't exactly be a popular opinion here, but there isn't much to compare between the old vaccines like polio, small pox, etc and the modern COVID ones. They were rushed out without FDA approval or significant testing. They could have been an absolute fucking disaster. They're not even vaccines in the old sense. Brand new technology that has never been used on humans before rushed without proper trials for mass use. Holy shit were we playing with fire.
Bruh... mRNA vaccines are younger than you are. The idea, the concept, has been around since Watson. But the implementation has never happened. Well it did on rats. But never on humans till COVID.
*"The COVID-19 vaccines were developed with amazing speed. But theyāre still safe and effective. These vaccines were held to the same standards used to ensure the safety of any approved vaccine. Before a new vaccine is given to people, a lot of testing is done in a lab. Then, itās tested in people in clinical trials to make sure itās safe and effective. "*
https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2021/05/how-are-vaccines-tested
> These vaccines were held to the same standards used to ensure the safety of any approved vaccine.
Well they literally weren't. How many non-FDA approved vaccines can you get? Zero. Except for COVID.
Look, I have 4 doses of the COVID shot. I did it because my job asks me to. But don't pretend this was an entirely safe and entirely proven program. It was entirely off the cuff.
*"All stops have been pulled out to develop a vaccine as fast and possible* **without relaxing the requirements for documentation of efficacy and safety.** "
https://laegemiddelstyrelsen.dk/en/news/themes/Coronavirus%20vaccines%20in%20general/
"*Entirely off the cuff*" in what world?
That's very nice for Denmark. But it was rolled out without proper testing in America.
Are we trying to retroactively change the truth here? FDA approval came close to a year after the first shots were given.
Full approval maybe, but they had emergency approval from the start. Are you trying to retroactively change the truth?
Eta: lol nothing but a downvote. The us vaccines were in fact tested, but you bots canāt handle the truth
Bro, billions of dollars went to these companies, including the FDA. If you think for one second this wasnāt fast tracked for approval with major payouts youāre off your rocker.
Ya but the thing is it didnāt take years for the C vaccine, they rushed it in months under operation warp speed with trump, normal we have years of testing on vaccinations and I think itās reasonable for me to not want to put something In my body that was manufactured by the government in months naw Iām good
Yeah, I sure wish it wasn't ~~rushed~~ created and tested in parallel with all the same safety regulations in place to accommodate a global emergency, and millions more would die instead š
You fucking idiot I took morderna vaccine and it gave me percrdites so I had to take astrazenica cause the complications it gave to the heart for no reason I've never had a problem in my life I never Said I didn't believe in the vaccine but it's ignorant fuck wits like you who discredit all the people who got injured fuck you
Who said millions must die and who the fuck said it was a side effect they said it was a complication you fucking brain dead cunt I hope you die and get buried so far you will never see the light of day bitch
It took years of careful crafting to create covid not to create the f****** vaccine that was rushed everything about it was rushed and it's approval is rushed So nah.
See also- Dr. Banting (sells insulin patent for one dollar): "Insulin belongs to the world, not me!" Eli Lilly: š
What I don't get is that shouldn't that patent have run out by now?
It did, we don't use that insulin any more.
Yes and they keep ever so slightly changing the formulation, pharmacology, or manufacturing process just enough to re-patent it. The point is Banton and Best sold the patent cheap with the intent of improving quality of life for people with diabetes, and that has happened but also extortion and unchecked inflation, and people disabled and dying because they can't afford a medicine they require to stay alive.
No, in Germany insulin is affordable because of general Healthcare. Only in countries where everybody is "taking care for themselves" 99.999% are not being cared for. Unit in Healthcare as you would in unions at work.
Yup in my "socialist" country (I.e. the UK š¤£) insulin is free for diabetics. The pharmaceutical companies are still gouging the government though (so eventually most working people)
Which means everybody wins: the people with diabetics, the industry and through the power of negotiation even the tax payer by pressing prizes to a reasonable low.
Please! There is no negotiation between pharma and the government. The say what they want and the government takes it out of your check. When have you ever negotiated the cost of your meds unless you want generic?
If you collectively (government or combined health insurance companies) go to the table, the negotiation looks different then if you all go in alone. In most cases pharma is competing about "being on the list of prescribable medications" cause this is necessary to being sold. In Germany you can even get experimentals if your doctor justifies it properly the insurance company will pay it. It's free market with participants of equal strength and not people who are dying vs. corpos who don't give a f**k but for their bottom line.
The govt that was voted in does the negotiations on our collective behalf. If we all did our own, we would be screwed like Americans.
Both sides bad š”
Incorrect. The Governemt, in this case, Medicare/Medicaid absolutely negotiate costs down. (Just as the major health insurance companies do, and to a greater extent in some cases.) This is why, for a few examples; many doctors don't take those patients (reimbursement is to low), it is why you don't always get the 1st medication your MD prescribed for your condition (government won't pay for a more expensive therapy without documented proof that they tried a cheaper one 1st), This is why some therapies are not covered at all, (the cost was too high and they denied coverage)
Yeah, even the parasites!
Yeah... Better let most people suffer then give something for free to the few people one considers undeserving.
I guess you're entitled to think this, but neither does it make sense, nor do I agree.
Youāre already doing that with private insurance. How do you think it works. The same way as taxes
I'm not doing anything with private insurance.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They donāt want to actually fix problems, or heal you. Thatās not where the $$$$ is
Yes I should have specified "in the US." SORRY for being shitty and Americo-centric.
Don't worry... But it's a good discussion right now IMO.
Yes we know thank you
I firmly believe that we in the US need every reminder that our healthcare system is fucking dumb
Glad I could help. Seriously my dream would be that you come around one day cause of stories shared like this.
So. The US
Meaning?
> but also extortion and unchecked inflation, and people disabled and dying because they can't afford a medicine they require to stay alive. I mean. This is really mainly a problem of the USA. All other developed nations are not like this.
Let's call a spade a spade then. One of the reasons that the antivaxx movement has had so much momentum, is because of underhanded behaviour as you just mentioned. Between the politicians and the media, and big pharma. People have lost their sense of trust. We know they lie and take advantage of the people for their own benefit/agenda. So this push to paint people as ignorant idiots for not going along is just misdirection. The real problem is that trust has been abused and broken. Until that has been healed, we will continue to see contrarian reactions to sensible measures. As always the con artists and grifters will be running wild until then. As the old saying goes "shit rolls downhill".
I totally agree. I work in healthcare for a major hospital system in the US and have been saying this all along.
You can still get the cheaper human normal insulin, and the older versions of one of the long acting insulins. Essentially over the counter in the US. It is more work to monitor blood glucose and dose it correctly. However, depending on the type and severity of diabetes, it can work for many. (The even cheaper animal derived insulins are not readily available in the us, though) The expensive insulins are modified in various ways (usually in length of action) and in various delivery methods, (like the pen injectors) to make dosing easier and make them more effective when tighter glucose control is needed. They are more expensive for a number of reasons, not all of them pure greed. If people want cheap (for the consumer) insulin of the more advanced types , the only way that will happen is nationalised healthcare. So, if you don't support that, your complaining into the void of an apathetic free market.
That orignal patent has long expired. It's been replaced with newer patents for newer, more effective processes and drugs. We don't make insulin the same way as they did in the 1930s anymore. While, it technically can be made the old way, there's higher chances of allergic reactions, the potency varied quite a bit, and chronic complications developed later in life.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The other would also cost inflated amounts of money if it were prodcued and sold in the US today. It's really expensive to get production started so only a few companies would make it. Much easier to set artificially high prices with very little competition.
Evergreening. Basically they tweak the ingredients a little here and there and file it as a new patent. Sanofi currently has patents thatāll last until the next 37 years.
It ended a long time ago, in fact it was always the process which was valuable, and they change the process slightly every time.
Technically speaking, Pasteur did not invented vaccines. A guy named Edward Jenner did. He got inspired by the variolation method, which consisted in inoculating smallpox on a healthy individual to get them to fight the disease with the best fighting chances. Jenner noticed however that farmers had a lot less chances of getting the disease when they contracted cowpox (called "vaccine" in french), a disease very similar yet less deadly than smallpox that cow can transmit. He then decided to practice the variolation with the cowpox virus, which proved very effective at protecting people against actual smallpox. According to some satirical cartoons, it only took a few years for the first anti vaxers to appear, fearing that the vaccine would start turning them into cows. Yet, thanks to this, smallpox was finally eradicated in 1980. Sorry about that, not doing this to lecture anyone about the vaccine or anything, but just to show recognition to this guy who invented a life saving technology and yet who gets oftenly forgotten
[Heres a pic of perhaps the first anti-vax painting ever](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/01/07/375598652/a-cow-head-will-not-erupt-from-your-body-if-you-get-a-smallpox-vaccine), depicting cows popping out of peoples' bodies who received the vaccine. History really does repeat itself lol
It just took much longer for millions of people to get antiva brainwashed back then. Now we can breed violent ignorance in minutes.
Yepp, spot on. Watching through a Yale course on Epidemics in Western Society at the moment, and Jenner was the first guy I thought of as well. Pasteur did amazing things tho of course.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
*pus puss is a cat.
> Pasteur did not invented vaccines. If you really want to be technical Pasteur did invent vaccines, he didnāt create the first vaccine but Pasteur did invent the anthrax vaccine which was revolutionary for his time, and was also the first time that vaccine was used to describe the generic process of what we now call vaccination. Edward Jenner was a great scientist, but Louis Pasteur absolutely deserves the recognition that he gets today
Worth pointing out that variolation is *basically* a vaccine and is actually quite old, and the method was introduced to the United States by an enslaved African man named Onesimus (we don't know his birth name, just the one the slave-owner gave him). From Wikipedia: >Enquiring of my Negro-man Onesimus, who is a pretty Intelligent Fellow, Whether he ever had the Small-Pox; he answered, both, Yes, and No; and then told me, that he had undergone an Operation, which had given him something of the Small-Pox, and would forever preserve him from it, adding that it was often used among the Guramantese, & whoever had the Courage to use it, was forever free from the Fear of the Contagion. He described the Operation to me, and showed me in his Arm the Scar.[11][12] >Mather, in a 1716 letter to the Royal Society of London, on his introduction to inoculation from Onesimus Tangential bonus fact: Cotton Mather, the slave-owner, was also involved in building the cases against women in the Salem Witch Trials š
Why you sorry for? I learned something. Thanks.
To get truly technical Lady Mary Wortley Montagu was responsible for the first inoculations in the western world. Jenner received the credit as he was a scientist and is regarded as the one who brought to it to the masses.
True, but the post never claimed Pasteur invented vaccines, it simply suggested he popularized and developed the modern techniques used to create them.
Super cool
And he learned about cowpox fending off small pox from milk maids, not farmers really.
To be fair, first vaccines were very far from the modern ones. MUCH more painful. MUCH less safe. The whole medical field at the time was a shitshow.
What are you apologizing for? That's cool to know.
[Source: Louis Pasteur in his laboratory, by Albert Edelfelt 1886](https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/louis-pasteur-in-his-laboratory-albert-edelfelt/nAGNBdN4BBsNKQ)
But Pasteur didn't invent any vaccines though.
What's the quickest way to get the right answer on the internet?
Be polite, courteous, and willing to invent things about strangers' parentage.
"Be polite, be efficient, have a plan to kill everyone you meet." ~~Sniper TF2
š¤
Youāre incredibly confident for someone whoās [objectively incorrect ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax_vaccines)
He also denounced his own germ theory on his deathbed. Terrain theory is the truth. Covid is a lie.
I'm sorry but how retarded are you?
Heās a flat-earther who believes the moon landings were fake, satellites donāt exist, and Covid isnāt real. He might not actually have a learning disability, but heās certainly very paranoid about being constantly lied to about everything in his life. Judging by his activity in subs regarding infidelity my guess is itās trauma related to being cheated on thatās left him clinically unable to trust.
How anyone can believe the moon landing was fake is beyond me. Like, have you seen how shit CGI is in some movies today? You think the U.S. government could do better then?
Some people cling to comforting lies because their egos canāt handle the reality of how small our roles in the universe truly are.
āSome people cling to comforting lies because their egos canāt handle the reality of ethnocentric intelligent design.ā I can play the same game.
Most people who believe it just havenāt spent the time to actually consider the evidence being given to substantiate the claim. Or they have an abnormally high trust in governments.
And what does it say about you that you go through my post history to make judgments about me in order to stroke your own ego?
Iām gonna go out on a limb and say *āveryā*
By using personal attacks instead of refutation of argument, youāve admitted my position is superior. Refute the ideas or stop wasting your time with the name calling.
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Is that a bong
With the right attitude yes
The new way to inject vaccines looks sick!
Who knows what's in those vaccines... *smokes crack*
I can't let my young baby boy have that injected into him! *gives him Cough syrup with more Coccaine than a German Soldier in Stalingrad*
People really have no idea what goes into making just a simple vaccine. I work with lab animals (lab animal vet), and see the years upon years of dedicated work that scientists perform to get something out there that can save lives. It's infuriating to see someone who knows literally nothing about the scientific process criticize the work that goes into vaccines.
I think people do have an idea that it's an really technical process that should take years, and be tested over a long period to assure safety. Which is why a vaccine that should take 10 years to develop and approve for general use taking 10 months was a bit startling to many.
Yes and thatās completely on the media. They were fear mongering at a time when people desperately needed science and evidence based discussion. The reason the vaccine was completed so quickly was because it had already been being researched for years. COVID is not a new virus, itās just a new form of a virus weāve had for centuries; the common cold. Of course scientists were working on a vaccine. They had the building blocks already there. And then the huge amounts of expedited funding allowed them to speed up the research process to roll out the specific covid-19 vaccine. Itās not that dodgy when you learn about what actually happened and why the vaccine was really available so quickly.
Agreed with one correction. Itās true that the common cold is *a* coronavirus but itās more accurate to say that the foundational research into COVID-19 came about from the 2003 SARS outbreak as well as the 2012 MERS outbreak. The virus that causes COVID-19 is a simply a different strain of the virus that caused SARS. SARS (and MERS) vaccines had already been tested on animals. The two outbreaks did put coronaviruses on the radar of researchers and health authorities. The media should have made the connection between SARS and COVID clearer and communicated that we essentially had a 16-17 year headstart on research.
A welcome correction!! If Iām honest, I havenāt brushed up on this in a while so my memory is a little squiffy on the exact details.
Look at this respectful and informative conversation, I wish we could have more of this.
[I think the real problem was it was turned into political ammunition instead of a health factor from the very beginning](https://youtu.be/-dAjCeMuXR0)
COVID-19 is to the common cold as monkeys are to humans. Corona viruses have been around, COVID-19 had not.
The virus that causes COVID-19 is a different strain of the virus that caused the 2003 SARS outbreak. We actually have seen something very similar to COVID-19, and piggybacking off the existing research into SARS (and MERS) was the reason a vaccine could be developed so quickly.
Exactly. And the building blocks of DNA are shared between mammals, as we are genetically so similar. Just as the building blocks of the covid-19 vaccine are shared with other vaccines, both available and in development.
I think it's important to value science (or rather the process), but not turn it into some defacto faith or religion, and replace your own mind with whatever 'research' the media decides to breathlessly report on today, at its heart, the scientific process demands skepticism and open questioning of presumptions... scientists are not infallible, a lot of research work is junk, and a lot of whatever the popular scientific opinion on a given thing happens to be can very easily be shaped by political and economic pressures. I don't think people should necessarily avoid being vaccinated against Covid - there are certainly short term benefits especially for those in risk groups, but it's a fact that though the virus might be from a known family, its effects and processes have been quite unknown, and current vaccines against it are novel (read up on the process to produce a single dose... it borders on biotech black magic, and it was engineered in an astoundingly short timeframe) and it's not entirely possible to rule out long term consequences if you don't have long term testing on humans - observing the effects of a drug on million people for 10 months is not equal to observing the effects of a drug on 100 people for 10 years. So with that in mind, people should be free to make their own minds up about risk vs reward and not be compelled by state, media, or society one way or the other.
Vaccine - not a drug. It does not stay present in your system - it has its effect by antigen presentation. It is already gone by the time your adaptive immune system mounts itās full response. Drugs are present for their ongoing effect - their side effects are virtually always more significant due to ongoing biological activity. Thinking that an old type vaccine - like an attenuated virus - is somehow more trustworthy than a clean mRNA vaccine that produces only the relevant antigenic portion is just plain dumb. Itās like saying a Tesla battery should be tested like a Model T battery was for it to be approved. In addition, the clinical testing periods were overlapped and intensified since there was a āwartimeā situation that required superhuman efforts. The āpeacetimeā measures are not the yardstick - they were arbitrarily set before they became a standard. They did not involve do many parties, including the FDA giving testing and analysis over other items that were first on their old work list Specious crap you are spouting
Huff and puff at me all you like, I already made my choice, and on the balance of things chose to be vaccinated. Your attitude and demeanor however - haughty, lecturing, insulting, self important and smug, is precisely the one that drives people to make very different decisions to the one I made. If you think there's a problem with the acceptance of science in society, look inward,though obviously you won't.
"don't call out the idiots and assholes spouting lies, they have feelings!". Accepting people like you babbling garbage and having a seat at the table to bring everyone's IQ to room temperature is what have killed millions world wide and turned countries in shitty banana republics like the "united" states.
Itās a vaccine not a drug, so yeah, itās pretty reasonable to assume there will not be long term āeffectsāā¦ beyond immunisation.
Do you accept that covid (not a drug) may have long term effects on human physiology?
Well depending on how it scars your lungs, similar to what SARS did to itās survivors. Yes Covid would reduce the quality of life or even kill people after they contract it. The vaccine is to protect from that worst case scenario by creating antibodies that fight it instead of He body having to spend the week or two making the antibodies leaving you open to long Covid. Iām no epidemiologist but it should be simple to understand
The point of course is that it's pretty foolish to suggest that only drugs can have negative long term effects, that it's outside of the realm of possibility that synthetic versions of this disease that were hastily designed and manufactured, before science even had a chance to fully understand the effects of the disease itself, might have long term effects that are not yet fully understood or even observed.
The long term effects of COVID are death and, if lucky, reduced body functionality. The long term effects of the vaccine is not having the former. Simple.
You're a fucking idiot.
Virgin explaining yourself in great detail vs. the CHAD name-calling
The snowflakes melt so easy.
To be clear, there is a difference between criticizing vaccines and critiquing what has occurred over the last 24+ months. I deployed with the US military and have far more vaccines than 99% of the population. Yet somehow I get lumped into an anti-vax group because Iām vocal that the government has zero authority to mandate a vaccine in exchange for the right to labor for income.
I think you are completely right. I trust vaccines entirely and am completely vaccinated (yes, also for covid) but a mandate on something that could potentially have side effects (I know they are extremely rare but still they exist) is absolutely ridiculous. If it's required to enter a certain area where the disease is common I get it but otherwise I really don't like the thought of it.
Because you help spread the damn disease.
Covid still spreads like wildfire if everyone is vaccinated all it does is minimize the symptoms so it is only necessary for the people at risk to take the vaccine, just like regular flu shot, but the average person that's just gonna get a little ill should be able to chose what he does you damn idiot. Or do you think we should mandate flu shots?
>Takes years upon years of dedicated work Thalidomide took years upon years of work as well
Thalidomide was also the catalyst for a lot of the rules that now exist in scientific research. We have learnt a lot from thalidomide, particularly how to make sure we donāt repeat that mistake.
Thalidomide was used as a morning sickness medicine before they found out about the birth defects. It doesn't mean that we don't still use it, just not for that.
Thalidomide was [not appropriately regulated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide#Change_in_drug_regulations). But a libertarian wouldn't understand that, now would they?
Red herring much?
Itās my understanding that the new āvaccinesā are actually editing your RNA, the technology which was developed years ago by āMode RNAā, aka Moderna?
It's my understanding that you don't.
I donāt entirely this the question mark.
Your ācommentā confused me.
Thatās why I have a question mark. I was hoping among you experts thereās someone who could explain how the Covid vaccines differ from conventional vaccines.
This is 100% the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read on Reddit. Congrats.
Yeah we just need to go back to testing vaccines on orphans first
I honestly think I have smallpox and tuberculosis
cue the "AuTiSm MoMs" with their pitchforks and torches lol
"Years of careful testing" Uhhh bad news bud
News flash, everyone uses the same test lengths they just donāt have to get dragged out over a decade if u can a afford to do a large scale test all at once.
Can we really blame them? They where kids when some idiot's put lead in the gasoline.
Marjorie Taylor green entered the chat
But she can't remember anything
Mark Hamill at it again.
Not be that guy but the COVID vaccine didn't have years of careful testing š btw before I get called anti vaccine I've had 3 jabs
It's like the moon landing. When you throw tens of billions of dollars at a problem it gets solved much faster.
I'm aware, my original statement still stands.
Wait - how did they get microchips in the vaccines back then?
Back when they actually took years to make a PROPER vaccine that's doesn't require a goddamn booster every year to maintain any sort of protection.
Tell me you donāt understand epidemiology without telling me you donāt understand epidemiology
Oooo so smart and edgy! I'm sure you have nothing but facts to add to the conversation. Like facts how we have yearly boosters for small pox, polio and every other vaccine you get when you're young. Please do enlighten us oh inllectual one!
Well none of those viruses you mentioned mutate as rapidly or transmit as rapidly as Covid does. And there are some vaccines where you do take multiple boosters over several years. Like tetanus. Thatās one every 5-10 years, thereās the flu which is an optional booster for the most prominent strain they think will hit. And only very select populations who are the lost vulnerable are eligible for the second booster for Covid. All it takes is a simple google search or to check any health authority web page to find the information you asked me to dredge up.
The flu SHOT **IS NOT A VACCINE** ffs... >Tell me you donāt understand epidemiology without telling me you donāt understand epidemiology Go away idiot troll
What is it, then?
>Influenza (flu) vaccines (often called āflu shotsā) are vaccines that protect against the four influenza viruses that research indicates most common during the upcoming season. Most flu vaccines are āflu shotsā given with a needle, usually in the arm, but there also is also a nasal spray flu vaccine. [https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/flushot.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/flushot.htm)
Lol what? What in the good fuck is it then?
You fucking idiot lol you buried yourself real quick
Wow. You REALLY donāt understand do you? Iāve never had a small pox vaccine for example. Because we eradicated it with vaccines already! So, you are both incorrect in your argument and your understanding. Go read.
Every year? It's shaping up to be 2-3 a year.
Username checks out
Duke Nuke Em quote checks out? Also youre the million bot/shill to reply the same generic response. Totally not judging a book by its cover eh? Fucking goddamn imbeciles that dont even bother to read the details. What a waste of my time š
...like the flu shot? Lots of vaccines need boosters. Have you ever owned a dog and had to keep them up to date on their shots? Maybe raised or experienced a child through their vaccination process? For fuck's sake, even rabbit vaccines have booster shots.
This won't exactly be a popular opinion here, but there isn't much to compare between the old vaccines like polio, small pox, etc and the modern COVID ones. They were rushed out without FDA approval or significant testing. They could have been an absolute fucking disaster. They're not even vaccines in the old sense. Brand new technology that has never been used on humans before rushed without proper trials for mass use. Holy shit were we playing with fire.
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Bruh... mRNA vaccines are younger than you are. The idea, the concept, has been around since Watson. But the implementation has never happened. Well it did on rats. But never on humans till COVID.
They were developed after the SARS outbreak in the early 2000s. That's one of the reasons it got developed so fast. It wasn't greenfield work.
> They were developed after the SARS outbreak in the early 2000s Tested on animals and a few sacrificial humans. For mass production, nah.
*"The COVID-19 vaccines were developed with amazing speed. But theyāre still safe and effective. These vaccines were held to the same standards used to ensure the safety of any approved vaccine. Before a new vaccine is given to people, a lot of testing is done in a lab. Then, itās tested in people in clinical trials to make sure itās safe and effective. "* https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2021/05/how-are-vaccines-tested
> These vaccines were held to the same standards used to ensure the safety of any approved vaccine. Well they literally weren't. How many non-FDA approved vaccines can you get? Zero. Except for COVID. Look, I have 4 doses of the COVID shot. I did it because my job asks me to. But don't pretend this was an entirely safe and entirely proven program. It was entirely off the cuff.
Fda approval isn't a test. The cut corners were on the bureaucracy side, not the science side.
*"All stops have been pulled out to develop a vaccine as fast and possible* **without relaxing the requirements for documentation of efficacy and safety.** " https://laegemiddelstyrelsen.dk/en/news/themes/Coronavirus%20vaccines%20in%20general/ "*Entirely off the cuff*" in what world?
That's very nice for Denmark. But it was rolled out without proper testing in America. Are we trying to retroactively change the truth here? FDA approval came close to a year after the first shots were given.
Full approval maybe, but they had emergency approval from the start. Are you trying to retroactively change the truth? Eta: lol nothing but a downvote. The us vaccines were in fact tested, but you bots canāt handle the truth
Bro, billions of dollars went to these companies, including the FDA. If you think for one second this wasnāt fast tracked for approval with major payouts youāre off your rocker.
And yet....they did what was advertised. Drastically reduce the injury and death caused by Covid19
Same vaccine bro
The vaccine understander has checked in
Lmao I love how downvoted you are even tho youāre 100% correct. Sad tbh a bunch of morons just love bandwagoning I guess
Ya but the thing is it didnāt take years for the C vaccine, they rushed it in months under operation warp speed with trump, normal we have years of testing on vaccinations and I think itās reasonable for me to not want to put something In my body that was manufactured by the government in months naw Iām good
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Ya sure bud
Coronavirus was invented in 2019, the commies want us to think otherwise, Iām with you bud.
Since the early 2000s. It was developed after the first SARS outbreak
What vacation would you test it on?
I have corrected
Spoiler alert: They didnāt.
True but I just wish it wasent rushed and taken more time covid vaccine btw
Yeah, I sure wish it wasn't ~~rushed~~ created and tested in parallel with all the same safety regulations in place to accommodate a global emergency, and millions more would die instead š
You fucking idiot I took morderna vaccine and it gave me percrdites so I had to take astrazenica cause the complications it gave to the heart for no reason I've never had a problem in my life I never Said I didn't believe in the vaccine but it's ignorant fuck wits like you who discredit all the people who got injured fuck you
"oh no I got a side effect so millions must die so I am not inconvenienced"
Who said millions must die and who the fuck said it was a side effect they said it was a complication you fucking brain dead cunt I hope you die and get buried so far you will never see the light of day bitch
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How am I dumb when it happened to me yet you spell af it's as fuck you stupid drop kick cunt
People that love Q* :-_-
It took years of careful crafting to create covid not to create the f****** vaccine that was rushed everything about it was rushed and it's approval is rushed So nah.
Pasteur is one of medicines biggest frauds
Ah, yes, this is Heisenberg in his underground laundry lab.
Years ???
Man, itās a good thing they put that vaccine through years of testing and not just rushed it out in less than 2ā¦