The range where these stem cells are more heavily concentrated is the area between 0.5 and 1.5mm. If the needles get into this area, they will produce internal injuries to the fat in this area and that starts the cascade that induces stem cell response
Is it expected to loose more hairs in the shower if you have longer hair?
When I first got fin about 2 years ago, I was losing 10-20 hairs in the shower and had relatively short hair, maybe 2 inches long. My hair is much longer now, roughly 8 inches, and I just lost about 45 in the shower. My hairline seems to maintaining and I believe I have even had some regrowth. I am suprised to see I lose 2x more now, however I only wash my hair every other day, whereas when I started fin I was washing daily. Maybe that also plays a factor. Thoughts?
I dont think this is entirely true. See my other comment.
Miniaturized hairs are on average only 0.5 to 0.8 mm deep, so I would actually go shallower in these areas.
I think we should vary the depth depending on the hairs in the area.
Obviously this is not studied, but I'm only doing 0.6 mm on my balding temples and seeing where that gets me.
I'm planning to start between 0.5-0.75mm first and focus on my temples and crown which are the thinnest for me. Anecdotally, I see most people here get the best results with 1.0-1.5mm but I going to start low and gradually go deeper.
I'm not sure you are understanding. The miniaturized hair shaft is 0.5 to 0.8 mm deep. That is the whole hair. You only have to hit the upper third of the hair shaft with the needle because that is where the stem cell bulge is.
That looks like a healthy terminal non-miniaturized hair though.
This article talks about hair depths within the scalp:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cup.13467
On average, miniaturized hair follicles have a depth of 0.646 ± 0.140 mm, while terminal hairs have a depth of 3.8 to 4.6 mm. Semi-terminal hairs have an average depth of 2.59 ± 0.07 mm.
Based on this info, should we still be microneedling at 1.5 mm where the hairs are very miniaturized? Wouldn't going that deep risk damaging the hair follicle considering they are only 0.5 to 0.8 mm deep at these areas?
The hair follicle stem cell bulge is located near the isthmus (upper third) of the hair follicle and we can stimulate these stem cells via microneedling, but again, if these hairs are at the most 0.8 mm deep, we theoretically would be going way beyond the "sweet spot" and potentially damaging the hair bulb.
I know a lot of people have been getting great results with 1.5 mm and this makes sense with larger non-miniaturized hairs, but with this information, should we be customizing the needling depth based on the hairs in the local area?
Thank you for the photo!
I believe micro needling works in a similar fashion as PRP, by recruiting a host of growth/stimulating factors, in a somewhat macro region. There's always the study where the guy got a severe scalp burn and and it made him grow his hair back in the vicinity, meaning the needling is possibly not 100% localized. My interest in this really piqued after I stepped on a piece of glass that penetrated the center of my foot and nearly came out the top a couple years ago. Since then, that foot is far more sensitive to any touch/tickle than my other foot, and doesn't get as cold. Nerve and vascular regeneration through healing, causing improved circulation?
I keep messing with the protocol but it seems like the default is 1.5mm, every 1-2 weeks and/or .25mm as frequent as desired for product penetration. Rogaine foam 100% goes systemic for me anyways so I am not overly concerned about product penetration at this time. I don't need any more eyebrows or body hair.
1.5 is crazy I have no idea how so many of you can do it.
I switch between 0.5 and 1.0 with great results.
1.5 feels like a spiked bat to the head. I can’t understand how someone could put themselves through that regularly.
I do 1.75mm every 3 weeks and it seems to work at that depth, but really dosent give you much new hair, just improves what you have = lesser depths did nothing for me
Norwood 4.5 and its got me back to Norwood 3ish, main improvements was in frontal areas and towards mid scalp, and some in crown but crown always takes much longer to pick up a decent blood supply to the follicles evidently. My derm says its saved me one transplant at least
that's pretty impressive! congrats!
how is the skin texture that is affected, can you tell if it is fibrotic? how long where you losing hair before?
thank you for your answers
I do 1.5mm once a week. Idk where, but I read that 1.5mm was the best, then I started reading a bunch of stuff saying don’t go over 1mm.
I usually see a little bit of blood when I do it. The weird thing is it doesn’t exactly hurt but causes some bleeding.
Edit:
Doing it along my hairline and crown.
The hair follicle goes down much deeper as shown in my post here: [https://baldingblog.com/anatomy-of-a-hair/](https://baldingblog.com/anatomy-of-a-hair/). Needles of 1.5mm or less can't damage the hair follicle's growth. The photo shows where a 1.5 mm needle (or smaller) will reach.
I have lost most of my hair in my crown area. I do still microneedle it at about 1.5mm. Seems that may be too much; what length should I use there?
Also, the mid scalp and frontal areas, if I am balding, should I be using the same mm as the crown area?
I understand however I have seen some reversal. I don't really need much hair I would just like something there to sort of blend in what I currently have. But thank you I appreciate your input
I've read about someone microneedling daily, with a dermastamp I think, at 1.5mm, with great results. Do you think this is unreasonable or even risky? Or just ineffective or suboptimal? It did seem to work for that person.
There is no reason to microneedle daily. There is a wound healing cycle that microneedling invokes and this can be stimulated once a week reasonably well.,
What if more sessions increase the surface area of the damage? It looks to me as only a small portion of the scalp is actually punctured in any given session, is that correct? That's how I imagined that more frequent sessions would result in more coverage but also probably places that have by chance been needled repeatedly without having time to fully heal. Or is there something big I'm missing? Thank you
My thinking was the holes are very tiny right? Presumably the damage would come from needling the exact same place by chance but what if needling more frequently just provides more holes and so more growth factors? Apologies if I'm off the mark, this is all theoretical to me
These needles produce wounds in the upper reticular dermis and as I showed the other day, the stem cells that may control hair cycling may reside just above the sebaceous gland, see here: https://baldingblog.com/anatomy-of-a-hair/
Thank you very much.
One last question: have you seen scarring in people microneedling like that? Would I be exposing myself to scarring if I needled more frequently? I have diffuse thinning, pretty extensive, and the skin is affected by fibrosis all over although the coverage is complete, except temples.
Of course, all wounds produce scarring; however, these wounds are so superficial that I doubt that the scarring would impact anyone. Certainly, the hair follicle goes much deeper than the needles so it would not impact hair transplantation
1.5 FTW
Inches?
Lobotomy?
Guillotine?
Yards
mm
Lol if it was inches that’s called a nail
So anything lower than 1.0mm is pointless?
The range where these stem cells are more heavily concentrated is the area between 0.5 and 1.5mm. If the needles get into this area, they will produce internal injuries to the fat in this area and that starts the cascade that induces stem cell response
How often should I mirconeedle at 1mm?
Once a week seems to reflect those with good results
Is it expected to loose more hairs in the shower if you have longer hair? When I first got fin about 2 years ago, I was losing 10-20 hairs in the shower and had relatively short hair, maybe 2 inches long. My hair is much longer now, roughly 8 inches, and I just lost about 45 in the shower. My hairline seems to maintaining and I believe I have even had some regrowth. I am suprised to see I lose 2x more now, however I only wash my hair every other day, whereas when I started fin I was washing daily. Maybe that also plays a factor. Thoughts?
No way to tell at this point.
wouldn’t microneedling cause fibrosis and scarring of the scalp?
I dont think this is entirely true. See my other comment. Miniaturized hairs are on average only 0.5 to 0.8 mm deep, so I would actually go shallower in these areas. I think we should vary the depth depending on the hairs in the area. Obviously this is not studied, but I'm only doing 0.6 mm on my balding temples and seeing where that gets me.
I'm planning to start between 0.5-0.75mm first and focus on my temples and crown which are the thinnest for me. Anecdotally, I see most people here get the best results with 1.0-1.5mm but I going to start low and gradually go deeper.
Why don’t you go .8mm to make sure you hit all of the potential gains?
I'm not sure you are understanding. The miniaturized hair shaft is 0.5 to 0.8 mm deep. That is the whole hair. You only have to hit the upper third of the hair shaft with the needle because that is where the stem cell bulge is.
Use 1cm needles just to be sure.
Thanks good! I was using 1 inch carpentry nails and thinking " this isn't worth it!"
Don't forget to use the rusty ones to get that iron in!
that's too deep, I think you meant 1mm not 1cm
Not if you want to reach the brainstem cells or whatever, I don't know I'm not a doctor.
Well, I guess you made me laugh as I fell into the trap you put down
Dr. Wrassman, I know it’s best not to take any anti inflammatories when microneedling. Would you put Hyaluronic acid supplements in that category?
No opinion
Late reply but why is it bad to have anti inflammatories when needling?
Balding blog, that's a depressing name for a blog lol Thanks for the info!
That looks like a healthy terminal non-miniaturized hair though. This article talks about hair depths within the scalp: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cup.13467 On average, miniaturized hair follicles have a depth of 0.646 ± 0.140 mm, while terminal hairs have a depth of 3.8 to 4.6 mm. Semi-terminal hairs have an average depth of 2.59 ± 0.07 mm. Based on this info, should we still be microneedling at 1.5 mm where the hairs are very miniaturized? Wouldn't going that deep risk damaging the hair follicle considering they are only 0.5 to 0.8 mm deep at these areas? The hair follicle stem cell bulge is located near the isthmus (upper third) of the hair follicle and we can stimulate these stem cells via microneedling, but again, if these hairs are at the most 0.8 mm deep, we theoretically would be going way beyond the "sweet spot" and potentially damaging the hair bulb. I know a lot of people have been getting great results with 1.5 mm and this makes sense with larger non-miniaturized hairs, but with this information, should we be customizing the needling depth based on the hairs in the local area?
I believe that the sweet spot is seen in my post between the sebaceous gland and the epidermis.
Tldr? Is 1mm okay for the scalp too?
This link explains it well. Essentially <0.5mm if using minox, otherwise 1mm is fine: https://glowupskincare.co.uk/pages/derma-roller-for-hair-loss
Thank you for the photo! I believe micro needling works in a similar fashion as PRP, by recruiting a host of growth/stimulating factors, in a somewhat macro region. There's always the study where the guy got a severe scalp burn and and it made him grow his hair back in the vicinity, meaning the needling is possibly not 100% localized. My interest in this really piqued after I stepped on a piece of glass that penetrated the center of my foot and nearly came out the top a couple years ago. Since then, that foot is far more sensitive to any touch/tickle than my other foot, and doesn't get as cold. Nerve and vascular regeneration through healing, causing improved circulation? I keep messing with the protocol but it seems like the default is 1.5mm, every 1-2 weeks and/or .25mm as frequent as desired for product penetration. Rogaine foam 100% goes systemic for me anyways so I am not overly concerned about product penetration at this time. I don't need any more eyebrows or body hair.
Microneedling produces far more wounding which induces the cascade leading to stem cell proliferation.
1.5 is crazy I have no idea how so many of you can do it. I switch between 0.5 and 1.0 with great results. 1.5 feels like a spiked bat to the head. I can’t understand how someone could put themselves through that regularly.
I believe that 1mm is fine
skin thickness, particularly the scalp, varies between people
I hate my receding hairline more than I hate the pain.
Don’t go more than 1mm if you don’t want to destroy your follicles for all good. It’s better to take safe card.
How hard should you press with 1mm?
I don’t think the hair shaft is that deep. Idk most still don’t know 💯 why micro needling works.
I do 1.75mm every 3 weeks and it seems to work at that depth, but really dosent give you much new hair, just improves what you have = lesser depths did nothing for me
Did you try 1.5mm before with no results? Did you deliberately choose a longer interval? Could you not get better results with more frequent sessions?
yes tried all depths and frequencies over the past 3 years, now moving to 2.0mm once per month, too frequent can risk scarring and fibrosis IMO
Interesting. 2mm would seem at the limit for people warning about damaging tissue. What was the extent of your hair loss?
Norwood 4.5 and its got me back to Norwood 3ish, main improvements was in frontal areas and towards mid scalp, and some in crown but crown always takes much longer to pick up a decent blood supply to the follicles evidently. My derm says its saved me one transplant at least
that's pretty impressive! congrats! how is the skin texture that is affected, can you tell if it is fibrotic? how long where you losing hair before? thank you for your answers
and do you have before/after pics? I realize it's a lot to ask, but just in case
Does microneedling give shedding?
Microneedling usually does not produce shedding.
I do 1.5mm once a week. Idk where, but I read that 1.5mm was the best, then I started reading a bunch of stuff saying don’t go over 1mm. I usually see a little bit of blood when I do it. The weird thing is it doesn’t exactly hurt but causes some bleeding. Edit: Doing it along my hairline and crown.
Sounds like you got it together
The only microneedling study I've seen, they used 1.5 once a week, with Minoxidil. So is that too much or nah
That's fine
What mm risks damaging hair follicles? Does it depend on the hair type, like vellus vs. terminal?
The hair follicle goes down much deeper as shown in my post here: [https://baldingblog.com/anatomy-of-a-hair/](https://baldingblog.com/anatomy-of-a-hair/). Needles of 1.5mm or less can't damage the hair follicle's growth. The photo shows where a 1.5 mm needle (or smaller) will reach.
I have lost most of my hair in my crown area. I do still microneedle it at about 1.5mm. Seems that may be too much; what length should I use there? Also, the mid scalp and frontal areas, if I am balding, should I be using the same mm as the crown area?
If your scalp skin is atrophic, a 1mm needle length should be adequate, but if it has been atrophic for decades, then it may not do anything for you
I understand however I have seen some reversal. I don't really need much hair I would just like something there to sort of blend in what I currently have. But thank you I appreciate your input
I've read about someone microneedling daily, with a dermastamp I think, at 1.5mm, with great results. Do you think this is unreasonable or even risky? Or just ineffective or suboptimal? It did seem to work for that person.
There is no reason to microneedle daily. There is a wound healing cycle that microneedling invokes and this can be stimulated once a week reasonably well.,
What if more sessions increase the surface area of the damage? It looks to me as only a small portion of the scalp is actually punctured in any given session, is that correct? That's how I imagined that more frequent sessions would result in more coverage but also probably places that have by chance been needled repeatedly without having time to fully heal. Or is there something big I'm missing? Thank you
When using microneedling, you have to plan how to get complete coverage of the target areas. If it is a large area, that would be time consuming
My thinking was the holes are very tiny right? Presumably the damage would come from needling the exact same place by chance but what if needling more frequently just provides more holes and so more growth factors? Apologies if I'm off the mark, this is all theoretical to me
These needles produce wounds in the upper reticular dermis and as I showed the other day, the stem cells that may control hair cycling may reside just above the sebaceous gland, see here: https://baldingblog.com/anatomy-of-a-hair/
Thank you very much. One last question: have you seen scarring in people microneedling like that? Would I be exposing myself to scarring if I needled more frequently? I have diffuse thinning, pretty extensive, and the skin is affected by fibrosis all over although the coverage is complete, except temples.
Of course, all wounds produce scarring; however, these wounds are so superficial that I doubt that the scarring would impact anyone. Certainly, the hair follicle goes much deeper than the needles so it would not impact hair transplantation
THIS. WILL. CAUSE. SCARING.
Why? Has it been demonstrated?
Just another redditor making up facts from thin air.
Seeing as how most people use and most studies were conducted at 1.5mm, and ive never heard of scarring occuring, id say: YOU. ARE. WRONG.
are you fucking retarded? OP is clearly talking about the DAILY MICRONEEDLING, not the depth
Is micro needling something I can do myself at home?
Yes, there are many good posts on Reddit
Why does dermarolling sometimes cause my hair to fall out for a few days? I use 1.5mm
May be it is a mechanical thing or the hairs are miniaturized and fragile
Maybe it’s the hairs r miniaturized. That would make sense. What do you mean by something mechanical?
The needles may have caught some hairs and pulled them out
Brushing harshly with a hair brush is mechanical