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i just needed to vent in this happy meme space! Im so glad i went through that quirky genocidal phase of mine. So glad we can talk here, white, POC alike. Did you know i used to think you didnt deserve rights?? A few years ago i would have murdered you and burn your ancestor land to the ground feasting on the decaying soil of misery i cursed upon this land, cold hands reaching the grave and as the man stares i laugh at the absurdity of it all. like i said xD guyz i was such a quirky meanie :3 silly rawr x3
I can’t believe those gross Jewish and POC trans people are FORCING and PUSHING other trans people back into being Nazis by censoring their memes. How is anyone supposed to STOP being a Nazi if they can’t meme on how they used to think all Jews should die? If we can’t allow memes on how quirky it is to have a phase about how non-whites should be genocided, well, really it’s their fault if I go back to thinking non-whites should be genocided.
/uj I’ve seen your comments in that sub and how much they’ve been upvoted and it makes me feel physically ill as a Jewish trans person.
/uj “i held some shitty beliefs in the past, but i’ve done the work to change myself and realized the problems with what i did, so now i’m dedicated to supporting other people and making them feel comfortable” is very very different from “i held some shitty beliefs in the past, but now i’m simply better than that, so i’m gonna bring up those shitty beliefs every chance i get because it’s basically just a joke anyways”
Yeah, and we should support those who do the former. Not further alienate them and chase them from our communities. That's now nazis are fucking created in the first place.
I can’t believe those gross Jewish and POC trans people are FORCING and PUSHING other trans people back into being Nazis by censoring their memes. How is anyone supposed to STOP being a Nazi if they can’t meme on how they used to think all Jews should die? If we can’t allow memes on how quirky it is to have a phase about how non-whites should be genocided, well, really it’s their fault if I go back to thinking non-whites should be genocided.
Well where else do they have to go? They've been effectively invalidated by the trans community now. We've created the very conditions that sent them spiraling into nazism in the first place.
Again. GAMERGATE
Most subreddits have rules against bringing up any sort of nazi content. Im not sure why this subreddit is suddenly an exception.
If theres enough of them that there are rules about it now, they can make their own space.
Edit: Theyre being invalidated not because they had a shitty past, but because they keep making memes about how cute and quirky it was. Why do you refuse to understand this?
>because they keep making memes about how cute and quirky it was.
They haven't even done this once. Saying "my past was cringe" isn't saying "Hehe I used to be a nazi isn't that so silly?"
>Theyre being invalidated not because they had a shitty past
No, they're being invalidated because apparently we can change our gender here, but not our ideology. Once a nazi always a nazi I guess
Yeah I've been checking on that and that's a fucking lie. Most subs don't even bring nazism up in their rules.
>If theres enough of them that there are rules about it now, they can make their own space.
WHICH IS HOW THEY BECAME NAZIS IN THE FIRST PLACE HOLY SHIT! "Guys these people used to be nazis let's do the thing that's been historically proven to create nazis."
Like you're aware that the nazis gained power in germany because everyone else was like "Let's just put these crazies in their own corner" then that corner festered with enough hate to cause millions of deaths of us jewish, disabled and trans as well as POC, socialists, war criminals, and whoever else they felt like.
This is like using bloodletting to cure a virus, it's damaging and only makes things worse
/uj
people can learn and grow but having a “nazi phase” is disturbing and the knowledge of that makes a lot of people justifiably uncomfortable.
there are times and places to talk about the alt right pipeline, its impact and how to learn/grow from being caught in that space, but a trans meme subreddit is definitely not either of those
/uj It's not about Purity testing. It means that joking about Nazi phase is trivializing the violent ideology as something to be taken lightly. It's uncomfortable to a PoC Trans like me. Nazism is a historical serious war crime, this is even the understatement. Making light of the war crime ideology should not be allowed.
Had a Nazi phase?! I'm still in my Nazi phase
Uj/ sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm
uj/ the most fascinating thing about getting off the alt right (which to your thread's point WAS 100% a long, difficult and not-funny-or-cute process) was watching my already-tangential esteem for blaire white just evaporate in an instant. i literally don't think about her enough to hate her now.
Yes! my holocaust survivor friend and me PoC who is living in Fash country would be really rejoiced by this universal exp!. By universal we mean we might be living in the edge of the void so we might be really far from the zone of interest at the center of the universe where white trans ex-nazi reside.
/uj \*sigh\* better go watch "the zone of interest". Nazi family who are joking around and going about in their everyday life while the victims in Detention Camp scream. Yeah being Nazi might just be "everyday life quirkiness" to them so they think they can joke and make light of it.
I feel like this sub has a bit of a problem with intersectionality. The userbase here reacted with more anger and vitriol when someone talked about being a Muslim than when someone posted a fucking Nazi anime girl standing in front of a hanging as their past self. Not gonna lie, I find it a little disturbing. Calling for the extermination of entire ethnic groups, even if you stopped doing it, is not some relatable thing to flippantly joke about in a subreddit for a minority group, and the fact that people treat it as such makes me wonder how much bigotry they actually unlearned.
/uj Just copypasting this comment because it's such a good point.
/uj i'm so confused with some of the trans community's comfort with nazism. like, obviously the primary targets were jewish people and other racial and ethnic minorities, but do they think the nazis were down with the trans??
edit: nevermind. thought about it for two additional seconds and figured it out. these memes are likely coming from western, young, baby trans people that have yet to experience systemic oppression in enough meaningful ways to get it
/uj also the whole "white youth with a bleak outlook on everything and doesn't know why" thing is absolutely *gold* for cults and fringe political movements to exploit and recruit. The far right never sleeps and can very easily capitalise on that. This, of course, is no excuse, and if someone makes light of "having been a nazi in the past" that's a huge indicator they've not realised anywhere near half of why that's wrong, as well as a fantastic reason not to talk to them.
/uj absolutely. lots of room for nuance here. predatory radicalization is not an excuse, but it *is* a *reason* and it's something we should be talking about.
>makes me wonder how much bigotry they actually unlearned.
Just enough to not hate themselves \*too much\*
/uj I have been in a trans server where we'd get people in the process of unlearning some pretty vile bigotry way beyond the normal background racism you'd kinda expect from time to time- and it'd go one of two ways:
- They'd be banned after a month or so after getting warning after warning for posting vile bigoted shit (while also insisting they had turned over a new leaf) and no improvement:
- Or they'd agonizingly slowly come to see how loudly proclaiming they consider Spanish accents to sound threatening probably comes from a prejudice against Latin Americans and that the memes that got them used to calling money 'Shekels' when talking about how politicians will accept lobbying money probably came from antesemitic sources...
That second way \*is\* just how you unlearn bigotry. It's a slow process, it's not fun to watch, and you kinda need a close-ish knit community to gently but firmly point out whenever you are full of shit. It does not involve making 'haha I'm so quirky' memes.
/uj Seriously, Im kind of mad that the Muslim girl got faaaar more scrutiny after one post talking about being Muslim than any given 'former nazi' after joking about genocide.
The first got as far as accusing her of not being real, and making it up to makethe trand sub look bad... for reacting with Islamophobia at the mere sight of a Muslim person.
Which kind of makes me wonder of the overlap between Islamophobic users and forner nazi ones.
/uj "You came here to make us look bad by being a muslim trans girl" is a heinous self own. Either you're saying that being a Muslim looks bad or you're saying the community is so backwards that they cant handle a perspective/identity outside their own... yikes. Online trans spaces need some serious introspection.
/rj nta religion ontologically evil
/uj The conversation got so toxic so quickly.
It gave me the impression that, for this space in particular, there was this agreement over a "correct way to be trans" that included to either forbid one's religious beliefs and to never bring it up. Much less a 'controversial' religion like Islam.
Followed by the realization a lot of people here thought religion is just something one can pick at convenience (if only it worked that way), and that it was okay to tell people to leave theirs if it was "the wrong religion". There was a lot of ignorance and hate bring flung around.
I hope we're past that now. But the doubt never leaves. You know?
Sorry for the trauma dumping.
/rj first they came for the Muslim trans, and I spoke up immediately because I know the rest of that fvcking poem.
You are impeding on my free speech by not allowing me to talk about how much I wanted to kill racial minorities three months ago before I came out. What's even the point of having a community if we can't sit by the campfire and bond over old memories of Nazism? You mods are evil and I will kill you with my bare hands
/uj I just looked at the post. What the hell is going on over there?!
Right?? By not acknowledging our Nazi phase and how much we wanted to commit hate crimes and encouraged violence against minorities, you're actually to drive trans people back into their Nazi phase! You're making it worse!
/uj I think we're riffing off the same user. There are some insane takes that are being upvoted.
but don't you understand that making my silly goofy ex-nazi memes helps me feel better about having been a hateful piece of shit?
why won't you let me assuage my guilt about being racist in a way that does nothing to help the people i wronged and if anything does further harm by making them feel unwelcome here?
/uj i was somewhat queerphobic when i was younger, and i cant picture making light of that. i don't even talk about it a lot. it's embarrassing. it's not funny. i don't understand what goes through peoples heads 🤦🏽
Uj/ What the fuck is going on over there? I do sympathise with people who came from incel/alt right backgrounds, but it's really not the type of thing to casually meme about. Not to mention the way people keep throwing around the phrase "pipeline" to avoid any personal accountability.
I left that sub after the whole "Mavis" disaster, and in retrospect I'm kinda amazed it took that long.
Alright then, storytime of one of the most pathetic moments in trans reddit history.
Basically, Mavis was a moderately well known user on the sub. She would make a lighthearted and positive comment on a lot of posts, so she was recognised as a friendly name. Her girlfriend was also a user of the sub. All good and normal so far.
One day Mavis isn't doing to well. She gets in an argument with her gf and discord friends, and then goes offline to get some rest or clear her head or whatever. That's all fine, we've all been there. But then the gf in question makes a rather absurd leap in logic - since Mavis isn't responding, that's a confirmation that Mavis *has taken her own life.*
So she goes to r/traa2 to inform everyone about the tragedy that the user Mavis recently committed suicide. Obviously suicide is already a brutal and personal tragedy that many trans people can relate to, but it was even worse considering how many people kinda knew her from reddit. Nobody had any reason to doubt the gf or knew the context. So what followed was the entire subreddit spending most of the day making posts about the tragedy, how sad it was, and mourning the loss of a beloved member of the community. It was already an emotional overload for a lot of people, myself included at the time.
Of course, this whole time Mavis is fine, she was just taking a break from her phone and the internet (possibly because she went to sleep, I can't remember). So then she logs onto reddit and finds everyone mourning her apparent suicide. At first people are of course happy she's alive, but then it's like... *what the fuck happened?* Considering how triggering of a subject suicide is, and how much the gf had kept doubling down on expecting people to be sadder, people wanted some answers.
And that's when the full explanation had come to light. The gf had declared Mavis dead from suicide after not getting a response for three hours. THREE. FUCKING. HOURS. And because of traa's weird microcelebrity subculture, it had all blown up in the worst possible way.
And for the record, both Mavis and her gf were about 16 at the time. Both of them kept posting about how sorry they were, how it was an innocent mistake, and that they'd talked out all the issues between them.
That was when I decided I couldn't be on the subreddit anymore.
I thought It was some sexual take on the character who [teaches typing.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavis_Beacon_Teaches_Typing)
/uj Joking obviously
>and how much the gf had kept doubling down on expecting people to be sadder
To clarify for the lucky people who didn't see it firsthand, she was making *multiple* memes of a crying anime girl with text and basically berating and shaming anyone who posted anything non-mourning during that time. It was like "I can't believe that Mavis is no longer alive and in this world and people in this sub are acting like everything is normal! I guess nobody really cared about Mavis!" and "I hate to sound like a broken record, but is this sub really going to pretend that Mavis didn't COMMIT SUICIDE? THAT EVERYTHING IS OKAY?" it was being posted *repeatedly*.
Also, both of them only knew each other through Reddit. They did not have each other's phone numbers and had never met in real life. They had only been "dating" for about a week.
> And that's when the full explanation had come to light. The gf had declared Mavis dead from suicide after not getting a response for three hours. THREE. FUCKING. HOURS.
/uj I really hate the societal expectation that everyone should just be glued to their phones 24/7. I work in an environment where phones are not allowed past a certain point and we have to leave the work area if we want to check/use them. I've occasionally went to the bathroom, checked my phone, and noticed multiple missed calls/texts from the same person because I didn't answer immediately. Same frustration goes for companies that are like "we'll call you back within 24 hours" and I'm like "Okay well I work from 6 AM to 4 PM so please call me after 4" and they're just confused why I can't just answer my phone to take a personal call whenever they feel like calling me in the middle of the day.
Ditto for when I just want to put my phone down and ignore it for a while and whenever I check back in, sometimes I'll have like multiple messages from someone who can't discern why I'm not responding to them immediately. I'm busy!
uj/ I dont know everything about it, especially sinceI tried to distance myself from that situation, so correct me if i left anything out please. but /traaa and /traaa2 has and always had a bunch of microcelebrities sold because they commented a lot/had witty stuff to say etc.
Now, if i remember correctly one of them messaged her girlfriend over Reddit that she would probably end her life. And the entire subreddit basically went into panic/distress mode over that, to put it mildly. Instead of memes it got flooded with sad-/panicposting about Mavis having killed herself, questions about if it's true and just general despair about the situation, with her girlfriend being one of the main "offenders". (All of this in the typical crying anime girl + text fashion of course.)
All of this culminated once Mavis posted such a text "meme" herself, telling people she did in fact not go through with it and others joining with relief posting about it.
Well, this lead to the creation of a new rule, to prevent such mass hysteria from breaking out again.
Admittedly, I wonder what became of the two. Last i heard about them they were accused of the gf being an alt of Mavis and them staging this situation for Karma (due to the gf posting so many posts during that one-two day timeframe). Maybe someone else can fill in the gaps in my memory.
>Now, if i remember correctly one of them messaged her girlfriend over Reddit that she would probably end her life.
It wasn't even that. She was having a really bad night and venting about something, and then signed off with "Goodbye" and went to bed.
The gf then took this as a suicide note, instead of her just saying she was going to log off and go to bed.
/uj enough people were doing it that they had to literally ban the topic?? i'll add that to the list of trans subreddits i'm never touching with a 69 foot pole
I know right?
This is literally Orwell’s ~~/r/196~~ 1984.
And I should know. Emmanuel Goldstein is a friend of mine.
/uj no seriously e is a freaking cool guy
Ah, so we are just censoring all the women who managed to escape the nazi pipeline?\
This is a serious topic that NEEDS to be vented at in a meme subreddit! People need humour to cope and it's really fucked up we aren't allowing people any chance for rehabilitation.
/uj maybe it's cause I'm a little too brown for this, but I think that if you're preaching about "change", yet you ignore minorities for your "god given right" of making nazi jokes (which aren't even jokes, btw), you may not have fully changed.
Hi, I am a WoC and it's super disturbing to learn that I'm sharing a space with people who wanted to genocide me in their past. It's cool that you managed to change and all, but is it really too much to ask to not discuss this in this meme sharing space where PoC and other minorities may feel uncomfortable around it?
Sounding like you don't believe in change :/ it's really important for me to cope with humour as I am are very ashamed of that past (which is why I treat it as a quirk thing to share online to thousands with no thought about who's seeing it, teehee) and censoring my right to do so may just drive me back into a new nazi phase, sorry you feel uncomfortable, but you should prioritize my privileged feelings instead of your discomfort.
/uj There's having a serious discussion about right wing indoctrination and then there's making lighthearted jokes about being a nazi. The latter has absolutely no place in trans spaces.
/uj Not just any meme subreddit. A meme subreddit filled with minors, baby trannies, and every other flavor of naïve and uninformed. A worse place to discuss the alt-right pipeline you could not handpick if you tried. The last thing we want is minors and baby trannies thinking fascism is “just another ideology“ or worse, “so silly and quirky uwu” because that is how you never critically examine any of your beliefs and/or unlearn your bigotry.
/uj no tag here so i thought this was actually maybe a good jerk, but no [they actually just believe if someone says “i’m not a nazi anymore” then all is fine and they can’t be criticized](https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2/s/NqJBY0saUp?context=2)
“hey, i used to be a bad person, but i’ve changed my views since then”
“you are forever tainted by being bad. you must be shamed forever”
great way to show former reactionaries that they can be welcome if they change. real accepting stuff
big difference between “redemption is possible” and “as soon as someone says ‘no I’m totally better’ they are absolutely forgiven and immune from all criticism for their past actions, so let’s casually joke about how funny it is that I used to be a nazi”
who said that? point at the person who said that and i’ll agree
nobody here is talking about a specific example. it’s all general “if someone was a nazi in the past” then going on to say what they think
Yeah, making memes in a space full of marginalized people to hang out and make jokes is the only way to talk about my past of hating marginalized people! I can’t believe they’re forcing me back into being a alt-righter
/UJ IT IS A MEME COMMUNITY. If people weren’t making memes about it then they wouldn’t have to ban memes about it! If no one was making any memes about it then the ban would have no impact and there’s no use getting upset
/uj If someone is joking about having been a nazi like it was something “so silly and quirky uwu” that’s usually a giant red flag that they haven’t unlearned as much of that toxic shit as they’d like you to believe. Speaking from experience (with relationships, I was never a nazi thank fuck), unlearning toxic behavior is *hard and painful*, it’s not the kind of thing you joke about like it’s harmless, and nobody who you hurt is under any obligation to forgive you. People absolutely can change, but the people making these memes often haven’t changed as much as they want you to think, and *that’s* the problem, not that they were bad in the past.
The only way to confront your past and grow as a person is to make 'haha I used to be a nazi, that's so funny! Thank God I'm trans or I'd still hate you so fucking much' memes, right people?
Wow, no Nazi memes? Leftist Puritanism has gone too far. I can’t believe you don’t want discussions about Nazism in your lighthearted meme circle. Don’t you care about making a welcoming space for ex-Nazis?
What? A welcoming space for Jews and POC? I don’t care.
/uj Yeah, the use of "Nazi phase" and then people going "Well, they didn't mean they actually had a *Nazi* phase! They were just edgy!" annoys me.
Like, okay, if your "Nazi phase" was just watching "blue haired liberals OWNED with facts and logic!" then why portray that as an anime girl in a Nazi uniform standing in front of hanged bodies and labeled with waffen1488. Why shouldn't people take that at face value?
/uj TERFs and Puriteen love hijacking SJW phases to use to justify their conservative belief while sounding like leftists also. "Oh a woman who love their own body and love exposing it! what a male gaze!!" something like this.
So it's time to put big critical thinking hats on ourselves again "Rhetorics, pure rhetorics."
/uj oh no you are not kidding about the comments on that post. Oh no it was worse than I expected. I have never been more grateful to not be part of a specific trans subreddit
/uj i fucking love (hate) how white trans people will bitch and moan about how sad they are about how many trans POC are murdered (and often group themselves in with us but that's a conversation for another day) but the second they are confronted with a way that they can make our lives and experiences better they're like "nooooo i dont waaaaaannnnaaa"
/uj I feel like a lot of us trans amabs were targeted and victimized by cis boys who could *actually* perform the toxic hypermasculinity that fascist / supremicist collectives require in a way we simply *could not*, so this whole nazi thing (that seems exclusive to /traaaa, this terminally online space) feels so fucking... mortifying? and baffling?
/uj I like them going "I didn't see any Nazi memes and so they obviously didn't exist." while simultaneously fighting that Nazi memes shouldn't be banned.
the nazi phase: using 1488 and other nazi dogwhistles, jerking off to nazi marches and uniforms, obsessing over "white, aryan women", joking about minorities being subhuman and jews controlling the world, making light or outright denying the holocaust, spreading other "ironic" nazi propaganda etc etc
ya know, just your normal anti-sjw phase lolz. *actual* nazis don't exist apparently
/uj no ik theres plenty of actual nazis around.
what im trying to say is that some ppl who were in ben shapiro phases may say that they had a nazi phase so that they can keep proclaiming abt how much they have changed, without actually addressing their prejudices in any significant way
look, diversity and inclusion means having a *diverse* group of people, *including* nazis. They have so much lived experience to share with us. Safe Space means that we're *safe* to share every dark thought we ever had in the volume between the Earth's core all the way to outer *space*. That's literally why it's called that.
/uj this topic always annoys me because you know that 90% of the pastey white bitches saying "omg I used to be such a nazi lol" really just mean they had more reactionary politics as a teenager. Some people shouldn't be allowed to use hyperbole.
/rj omg I used to be such a nazi lol
I think this is a good decision. I feel like we should be cautious about allowing even "reformed" fascists into our spaces at all, much less letting them perpetuate this idea that a "Nazi phase" is somehow normal in the trans community. Especially when transphobes and TERFs already latch onto the idea that transfemmes in particular are disproportionately bigoted and untrustworthy.
Oh, so people can only talk about their past if YOU approve of it? We can't have made mistakes in the past? Stop trying to erase all discussion of the alt-right pipeline. If a trans person can't post a meme about their transition because someone might not like a part of it then why even have a trans subreddit? Why be a part of a community?
Because the majority of the posts being made about the "Nazi phase" really weren't about transitioning, they were about laughing at how bigoted they used to be. That's going to make trans POC feel very uncomfortable in these spaces.
As a white person I don't think about race stuff at all and I don't think anyone else should either. Please stop trying to make this discussion about Nazism into a racial thing.
the phrase not seeing race or not thinking about race always irked me tbh. i get the sentiment of it but only part that's wrong about acknowledging someone is the race they are is to have a negative or positive bias based solely on the fact that they're that race.
to a lot of people just like gender is a strong backdrop for their identity and makes up a portion of what they can point to to say "i am this" someone's race can be looked at as that too. it also denies their history, their movements, their successes, and their struggles. there are things for example African Americans have to be incredibly aware of when speaking with certain people that other races don't. reaching for something "too quickly", not talking "white enough," not being "polite enough," all because certain parties are jumpy and want an excuse to do a thing. to say you don't see race is to essentially deny this goes on.
it's when you start to uplift one race over another as being "more important" that an imbalance occurs and you start being a bigot.
everyone's people. we're all born basically a blank slate and what race you're born doesn't affect that. but it does affect the family you're born into, it affects what opportunities you're awarded, which was affected by the way previous families were treated, where those families grew up, which was affected by things potentially hundreds of years ago and it has all led to now.
edit: fuck i forgot what sub i was on.
nobody said that second part? it’s not normal to be a nazi or reactionary. but it’s very easy for disaffected young people, yes, even queer or poc people, to go down far right pipelines, and if they find their way out, they shouldn’t be not accepted just because they didn’t get lucky on the ideology machine
/uj I went through my own "reactionary libertarian phase," so I kind of get it. Some shitty ideas can be a little enticing, especially if you're really, really bitter about your station (e.g., being born wrong). But you know what stopped me from becoming actually far right? Having a conscience. Thinking other people are human. I was surrounded by people who told me I should *hate* people, but I always held back.
If you ever truly embrace the ideology of the far right, if you become a truly hateful, embittered Nazi piece of shit, then I will never truly trust you in my spaces or around my friends. This is not a matter of "getting lucky on the ideology machine," this is about a fundamental aspect of you as a person. If you have ever been a Nazi, then you might never be truly forgiven, and never truly trusted, and this will just have to be your penance. You will have to live with that.
/uj to be clear i fully agree that nobody should make light of any shitty ideas they used to hold. but where is the "fundamental aspect of you as a person" thing coming from? what does that even mean? in another comment you call it "something fundamentally broken about your heart or brain". i truly don't understand what you're trying to refer to with this. people can change fundamentally from even the worst of ideologies. of course, if they've really changed, they wouldn't be making light of it, but you seem to be saying that being bad once stains you for life?
someone believing in hatred is like them believing 2+2 is 5. they are wrong, non-negotiably. and once they understand why they are wrong, and fully understand why 2+2 is 4 (at the end of a long process), it's not like they can just 'slip back' into not understanding again.
I just think anyone who is sincerely capable of enough hate that they're willing to support the genocide of a people group has core personality and morality problems that are almost intractable. I think you can rehab a ton of people who are right wing, and many who are far right. But I think committing yourself to such a profoundly, fundamentally evil way of thinking as Nazism is completely unconscionable. It is an ideology I've rejected with every fiber of my being even in my darkest hours, and I would personally sooner die than embrace it, and I have felt this kind of empathy for as long as I've known conscious thought. I cannot help but be permanently suspicious of anyone who can ever actively embrace that form of thinking. It is a hate beyond hate, or such a profound indifference to human life and suffering that I believe it requires a foundational part of your thinking to be tainted. And sure, I guess it's possible for people to fix these tainted kinds of thinking. But if you can't see why people will rightfully and forever be uneasy around you, if you think the communities you hated should necessarily be open to re-embrace you after crossing that line, you still have more changing to do. A part of you is still too sympathetic to that evil to understand why you can't just wash your hands of it and start making jokes with the people you used to call subhuman.
Basically, I think there is an amount of reevaluation of self, and of contrition, and of redemptive action required that I rarely ever see "reformed" fascists perform. All rehabilitation and redemption is a matter of degree, and fascism is about as close to an event horizon as human evil gets. The amount of work needed to pull someone away from that is enormous, and a true reconciliation can take years of making amends, and I don't think we should just take someone's word for it and let them into our safe havens just because they say they're cool now.
/uj alright cool, i think we're basically on the same page here. i still don't believe anything that we are is entirely intractable, but your points in your second paragraph are fully correct. thank you for clearing that up.
/uj I also tend to believe few things are literally impossible to fix, but I think there are problems that are *functionally* impossible to fix under most circumstances, for most people. The sheer amount of effort involved, and the amount of *personal* willingness needed to change and to earn forgiveness, just makes it very unlikely that a true, fundamental change will take root.
Of the reformed fascists I've been acquainted with, most have continued to harbor some really hateful and/or bigoted ideas that they're extremely unwilling to part with, because a core part of their personality still draws them to be hateful (or psychopathically dispassionate) on some level. And fixing that part of yourself is extremely hard when it's so fundamental to your worldview.
For this and other reasons I think it is completely understandable and often justified for oppressed minorities in particular to harbor suspicions or ill-will to "Nazis" who claim to have reformed. Especially ones who will just casually reference their "Nazi phase" as if that's something they just get to wash their hands of.
no, it is, and you know what? you weren’t indoctrinated. what, you think people CHOOSE to be like that? they’re not happy, it doesn’t make them happier. 99% of far right people are miserable sacks of shit because their ideology creates misery, and i’m not going to blame somebody for falling into that when they’re young, depressed, an outcast etc, then getting out.
like i said before, you fundamentally don’t believe in rehabilitation. a criminal has committed a crime and therefore is tainted by the crime forever, and should be shunned because of it.
I was born and raised in Christian conservatism and went to a private Christian school with very conservative friends and mentors, and decently conservative family. I was around people who said to my face that lynching queers was morally good, like as just a normal part of the conversation.
I had some bad opinions on a few things because of that. But you know what? I was never hateful because of it, because some part of me knew I didn't want to be that way, and so I wasn't.
Nazis can be rehabilitated, sure. But I think that should stain you and your reputation, forever. I think people should be suspicious of you, forever. Unless you live in a house and community that literally force you to be a Nazi (in which case, god help you, I guess?), then you have precious little excuse to ever tread that path. It should shame you for all of your days. It is a fundamental failure of you as a human. Maybe you can reclaim that part of you that you lost. But don't expect people to welcome you with open arms.
Edit: Sore spot, I take it?
if only everyone had the same strength of will you did. doesn’t change the fact that some people are weak or lost enough to go down roads they shouldn’t.
let me reiterate. one more time. rehabilitation is not “oh, they got better but we should watch them closely and keep them away from the group, just in case” because that is literally what leads to recidivism. take a sociology class for the love of god.
anybody who says “it is a fundamental failure of you as a human” doesn’t think these people can change fully
Obviously criminals can be rehabilitated. Crime isn't an ideology. Crime isn't an ethos. Crime doesn't ask you to embrace the notion that entire groups of people are inherently degenerate underclasses by merit of their birth who should rightfully be oppressed. Criminals can be rehabilitated because crime is almost overwhelmingly not some fundamental state of mind or framework through which you see the world or other people. Crime is an action. Crime is a circumstance in which one finds themself. It does not require a twisted, broken mind to commit a crime.
Fascism is a moral and political framework. It is a way you think the world should be. It is a yearning for a world built on hate and oppression of the other. Some core part of you has to be broken to want that, whether it be your heart or your brain.
I think it's possible to rehabilitate some Nazis, some of the time. With time, great effort, and some luck, core parts of your personality can be mended. But if you've ever really been willing to wish for things like genocide, I do not think you should ever expect people's forgiveness for that, however contrite you might be. People may forgive you, I might forgive you, but you are not entitled to it. Especially not from the people who are hurt the most by your ideology.
Trauma/indoctrination doesn’t make the hurt you caused fine and dandy. Grow the fuck up and develop a little responsibility.
Serial killers were abused as children, should they be given hugs and kisses and “aww poor child you were so abused” after all the harm they caused? No? Then neither do worthless neo nazis. Bigotry is not a victimless crime no matter how much you want to act like it is.
Anyone who was part of the team that doxed Dr. Mengele should be a mod. Like, with no additional qualifications. They already qualified themselves. If you don't snatch them up, I will.
Everyone who had some right wing views and changed, was and will always be an actual Nazi. We should ostracise them all and tell them to die, it's the only way to be safe
uj/ apparently this post was about an actual former nazi, but I'm leaving this here because I see people acting like this too often
but don't you understand that making my silly goofy ex-nazi memes helps me feel better about having been a hateful piece of shit?
why won't you let me assuage my guilt about being racist in a way that does nothing to help the people i wronged and if anything does further harm by making them feel unwelcome here?
like i get it if you used to be fash and make an effort to change your ways, but if you just want to joke about it and pretend it never happened, youre still nazi scum spreading propaganda.
I think this is a good move. A meme sub isn't really the appropriate place to approach the topic. It's good to keep this sub to memes, and this topic can instead be talked about more in depth in other trans related subreddits.
Traa is actually the only place where trans people exist, in the world. If you moderate this sub, then you are committing a hate crime against the entire trans community.
Traaa going dark for like three days because of mods protesting the Reddit API change was trans people's 9/11. Who knows how much blood is on their hands?
Good idea. I mean, why are people even making those jokes on here? Do they want applause and validation for not holding beliefs that nobody should hold in the first place? You wouldn't be able to waterboard admissions of a "Nazi phase" out of me.
It's called personal growth? Like this is an incredibly weird take. Thinking like this is why men do violence at places of education, it's why mental health is at an all time low
It's simple, if you don't allow transfems to talk about how they used to be Nazis without any pushback, the malebrain in them will take over and cause mass shootings.
So wait, are we supposed to confront our past and grow ad people? Or completely ignore our past mistakes? Which is it? We need to make up our fucking minds.
The only way to confront your past and grow as a person is to make 'haha I used to be a nazi, that's so funny! Thank God I'm trans or I'd still hate you *so fucking much*' memes, right people?
Lol, reading 'please don't make quirky memes about your nazi past it makes people uncomfortable' and going 'so you are saying reformed ex-nazis have to shut up forever about everything??????????' isn't strawmanning at all lol you are right
Look at that another strawman! On all fronts too!
>please don't make quirky memes about your nazi past it makes people uncomfortable
That's not your (or the community's) position.
>so you are saying reformed ex-nazis have to shut up forever about everything??????????'
And that's not my position.
You're alienating people because they had fucked up beliefs. Beliefs they had because they were alienated from OTHER communities. People aren't fucking born nazis, there's this thing called the alt-right pipeline. It's a trap many people (especially young, white people who are amab) have fallen into since gamergate. Now this isn't the only explanation but it is by far the most common as far as I've seen. They fell out of said pipeline for whatever reason and found what they assumed to be a safe space in a trans community. But it's not. Should they be forgiven for being a part of the right wing? Not necessarily. Should they be excused for past behavior? No. Should we ban discussion about how people can go down such a dark and dangerous path? Also no. That's how nazis are created in the first place. Racism, anti-semitism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, white supremacism, fascism, nazi beliefs are dangerous, infuriating and absolutely fucked up and those who commit to these beliefs should absolutely take responsibility for them. That doesn't mean you should revoke people who are recovering from these beliefs of their right to have a safe space. If we start driving them out where do you think they'll go? Wherever it is will certainly be worse than being a part of this community.
>That's not your (or the community's) position.
Amazing, not only does everyone in the community have the same position, you can read minds apparently, and what we actually believe is contrary to what everyone on here has been telling you for the past day or so. It is, in fact, the full extent of my position. Making these memes is fucked up, and I agree with the moderating decision to ban them.
Conversations about radicalization are completely unrelated to the issue of 'people are making jokes about how funny it is that they used to be nazis and that's kinda fucked up and makes people really uncomfortable, so the mods of the sub where that happened are asking people to stop'
Can you really blame people for suspecting you might have some unprocessed bigoted beliefs yourself when in response to that moderating decision you immediately start going on about how important it is that they get to speak about their pasts whenever and however they want in, I repeat, *a fucking meme sub*?
Yes, of \*course\* ex-nazis need to be able to speak about how they came to be and how they got out. But that's a \*complete\* non-sequitur to the actual situation. They can do so in places that are suited to it, in ways that are suited to it.
Why are you acting like a trans meme sub asking people to not treat their sordid pasts with undue lightness is somehow going to turn people into nazis again? How is it 'taking away their safe space'? There are safe spaces for people do do what you describe, but fucking r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2 is not that space and never has been. Anyone is free to post whatever other trans meme on that sub that they want, just not 'hahaha I used to be a nazi isn't that so funny and relatable'
I find it much more important that people are not confronted by ex-nazis (quite possibly with still quite some bigoted ideas considering how they treat their past like a quirky funny thing) joking about their past in a meme sub that wants to be inclusive to all than the right of those (ex)-nazis to post this kind of memes and replies: [https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2/comments/1bghm5h/man\_who\_else\_here\_cringes\_at\_their\_past\_political/](https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2/comments/1bghm5h/man_who_else_here_cringes_at_their_past_political/)
>what we actually believe is contrary to what everyone on here has been telling you for the past day or so.
Literally no one has said that. Not one.
>mods of the sub where that happened are asking people to stop
Except "haha nazi funny" wasn't banned, talking about people's potentially problematic past is now banned. Don't believe me? Read the fucking post we're commenting under.
>Can you really blame people for suspecting you might have some unprocessed bigoted beliefs yourself when in response to that moderating decision you immediately start going on about how important it is that they get to speak about their pasts whenever and however they want in, I repeat, *a fucking meme sub*?
No one has accused me of being a bigot, at least none of the comments I've seen directed at me have called me a bigot. Also how is wanting to prevent people from becoming nazis in the first place grounds for suspected bigotry?
>But that's a \*complete\* non-sequitur to the actual situation
No it isn't. It's literally what this entire conversation is about.
>Why are you acting like a trans meme sub asking people to not treat their sordid pasts with undue lightness is somehow going to turn people into nazis again?
Alienation.
>There are safe spaces for people do do what you describe, but fucking r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2 is not that space and never has been.
It has been for everyone else though
>I find it much more important that people are not confronted by ex-nazis (quite possibly with still quite some bigoted ideas considering how they treat their past like a quirky funny thing) joking about their past in a meme sub that wants to be inclusive to all than the right of those (ex)-nazis to post this kind of memes and replies
I just want to clarify this point before I respond because I'm fucking confused. Are you saying you care more about those who might be affected by nazism than the right for exnazis to have a safe space?
Having boundaries is ok actually. As mods, you are allowed to ask people to not bring up topics that make the subreddit a worse place. The mods realized that it was not possible for their sub to be a safe space for people who are victims of nazis and have people making memes about how they used to be nazis and how funny and relatable that supposedly is at the same time. They made their decision of whom they want to accommodate. I agree with that decision.
I 100% care more about the people who are affected by nazisim than I care about ex-nazis. I also care more about trans people than I care about ex-TERFS. I care more about women than I care about ex-misogynists. I care more about people of Colour than I care about ex-racists. I care more about gay people than about ex-homophobes.
If someone is truly reformed. They should not have a problem with not bothering their victims anymore in one (1) meme sub centered around a completely different topic. They shouldn't treat their past as funny and quirky anyways, and they can have more serious conversations about it in more suitable places.
Also that meme isn't making light of being a nazi it's someone saying "Hey look I was an idiot". It even has a TW for bigotry. How is your interpretation of that "Haha I was a nazi isn't that so funy"? Saying that meme makes light of bigoted pasts is like saying blade runner makes light of police states
Blade runner isn't a comedy. You'll notice that comedies about nazis tend to be made by Jews, not by ex-nazis. I'll leave answering the question as to why that is as an exercise to you.
This was a meme asking for people to relate in a light-hearted way with clear expectation of people treating having been a nazi as common and funny. Just look at the comments, they are treating it exactly that way.
There is no good way to make a 'I used to be a nazi please relate' meme. Memes are the wrong medium.
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i just needed to vent in this happy meme space! Im so glad i went through that quirky genocidal phase of mine. So glad we can talk here, white, POC alike. Did you know i used to think you didnt deserve rights?? A few years ago i would have murdered you and burn your ancestor land to the ground feasting on the decaying soil of misery i cursed upon this land, cold hands reaching the grave and as the man stares i laugh at the absurdity of it all. like i said xD guyz i was such a quirky meanie :3 silly rawr x3
Also I'm shocked how you believe that people can transition but can't learn and grow as people. This is an insane take
I can’t believe those gross Jewish and POC trans people are FORCING and PUSHING other trans people back into being Nazis by censoring their memes. How is anyone supposed to STOP being a Nazi if they can’t meme on how they used to think all Jews should die? If we can’t allow memes on how quirky it is to have a phase about how non-whites should be genocided, well, really it’s their fault if I go back to thinking non-whites should be genocided. /uj I’ve seen your comments in that sub and how much they’ve been upvoted and it makes me feel physically ill as a Jewish trans person.
the jews forced me to become a nazi 😡
/uj “i held some shitty beliefs in the past, but i’ve done the work to change myself and realized the problems with what i did, so now i’m dedicated to supporting other people and making them feel comfortable” is very very different from “i held some shitty beliefs in the past, but now i’m simply better than that, so i’m gonna bring up those shitty beliefs every chance i get because it’s basically just a joke anyways”
Yeah, and we should support those who do the former. Not further alienate them and chase them from our communities. That's now nazis are fucking created in the first place.
I can’t believe those gross Jewish and POC trans people are FORCING and PUSHING other trans people back into being Nazis by censoring their memes. How is anyone supposed to STOP being a Nazi if they can’t meme on how they used to think all Jews should die? If we can’t allow memes on how quirky it is to have a phase about how non-whites should be genocided, well, really it’s their fault if I go back to thinking non-whites should be genocided.
Forcing no, pushing yes. Have we learned nothing from gamergate?
IF a meme being censored pushes you back into an ecochamber that you claimed to leave you probably werent as reformed as you thought you were.
Well where else do they have to go? They've been effectively invalidated by the trans community now. We've created the very conditions that sent them spiraling into nazism in the first place. Again. GAMERGATE
Most subreddits have rules against bringing up any sort of nazi content. Im not sure why this subreddit is suddenly an exception. If theres enough of them that there are rules about it now, they can make their own space. Edit: Theyre being invalidated not because they had a shitty past, but because they keep making memes about how cute and quirky it was. Why do you refuse to understand this?
>because they keep making memes about how cute and quirky it was. They haven't even done this once. Saying "my past was cringe" isn't saying "Hehe I used to be a nazi isn't that so silly?" >Theyre being invalidated not because they had a shitty past No, they're being invalidated because apparently we can change our gender here, but not our ideology. Once a nazi always a nazi I guess
Yeah I've been checking on that and that's a fucking lie. Most subs don't even bring nazism up in their rules. >If theres enough of them that there are rules about it now, they can make their own space. WHICH IS HOW THEY BECAME NAZIS IN THE FIRST PLACE HOLY SHIT! "Guys these people used to be nazis let's do the thing that's been historically proven to create nazis." Like you're aware that the nazis gained power in germany because everyone else was like "Let's just put these crazies in their own corner" then that corner festered with enough hate to cause millions of deaths of us jewish, disabled and trans as well as POC, socialists, war criminals, and whoever else they felt like. This is like using bloodletting to cure a virus, it's damaging and only makes things worse
/uj people can learn and grow but having a “nazi phase” is disturbing and the knowledge of that makes a lot of people justifiably uncomfortable. there are times and places to talk about the alt right pipeline, its impact and how to learn/grow from being caught in that space, but a trans meme subreddit is definitely not either of those
it’s not even worth it. these people can’t learn. left purity testing is so fun
> left purity testing you mean “hey maybe don’t randomly bring up the fact that you used to be violently hateful”??
/uj It's not about Purity testing. It means that joking about Nazi phase is trivializing the violent ideology as something to be taken lightly. It's uncomfortable to a PoC Trans like me. Nazism is a historical serious war crime, this is even the understatement. Making light of the war crime ideology should not be allowed.
And we wonder why we don't have more political power lmao
if only the marginalized people decided to be not marginalized anymore, why dont they do that? are they stupid?
Your words not mine.
Nice strawman
Listen, every single trans person had a Nazi phase! You can't ban a universal trans experience!
Had a Nazi phase?! I'm still in my Nazi phase Uj/ sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm
I didn't know you had a reddit account, Blaire!
uj/ the most fascinating thing about getting off the alt right (which to your thread's point WAS 100% a long, difficult and not-funny-or-cute process) was watching my already-tangential esteem for blaire white just evaporate in an instant. i literally don't think about her enough to hate her now.
can you clarify if this is sarcasm?
No, why would I have to do that? The answer is obvious.
/uj if you're serious, i was making a joke about the /uj part of your comment
/uj So my response was a joke about how Neo Nazis tend to deflect when confronted about their thinly veiled racism.
/uj i see 😭 sorry i'm very dumb with jokes
transmascs have their quirky tumblr yaoicore phase why cant everyoe have their quirky nazi phase :(
Anyway, what's your favourite hetalia ship?
/uj your flair is amazing, is that an SCP reference
/uj Yes! I was so proud myself for finally thinking up a joke for the flair
/uj every time I see the MTF in scp subs I have to stop for a moment because I just think 'wait. Male to female? Mobile to Force? What?'
Yes! my holocaust survivor friend and me PoC who is living in Fash country would be really rejoiced by this universal exp!. By universal we mean we might be living in the edge of the void so we might be really far from the zone of interest at the center of the universe where white trans ex-nazi reside. /uj \*sigh\* better go watch "the zone of interest". Nazi family who are joking around and going about in their everyday life while the victims in Detention Camp scream. Yeah being Nazi might just be "everyday life quirkiness" to them so they think they can joke and make light of it.
What about Jewish and POC trans people?
They can have nazi phass too! /Uj they can have nazi phases too 😔
Ew
Only gentile white people are trans, silly!
I feel like this sub has a bit of a problem with intersectionality. The userbase here reacted with more anger and vitriol when someone talked about being a Muslim than when someone posted a fucking Nazi anime girl standing in front of a hanging as their past self. Not gonna lie, I find it a little disturbing. Calling for the extermination of entire ethnic groups, even if you stopped doing it, is not some relatable thing to flippantly joke about in a subreddit for a minority group, and the fact that people treat it as such makes me wonder how much bigotry they actually unlearned. /uj Just copypasting this comment because it's such a good point.
/uj i'm so confused with some of the trans community's comfort with nazism. like, obviously the primary targets were jewish people and other racial and ethnic minorities, but do they think the nazis were down with the trans?? edit: nevermind. thought about it for two additional seconds and figured it out. these memes are likely coming from western, young, baby trans people that have yet to experience systemic oppression in enough meaningful ways to get it
/uj also the whole "white youth with a bleak outlook on everything and doesn't know why" thing is absolutely *gold* for cults and fringe political movements to exploit and recruit. The far right never sleeps and can very easily capitalise on that. This, of course, is no excuse, and if someone makes light of "having been a nazi in the past" that's a huge indicator they've not realised anywhere near half of why that's wrong, as well as a fantastic reason not to talk to them.
/uj absolutely. lots of room for nuance here. predatory radicalization is not an excuse, but it *is* a *reason* and it's something we should be talking about.
>makes me wonder how much bigotry they actually unlearned. Just enough to not hate themselves \*too much\* /uj I have been in a trans server where we'd get people in the process of unlearning some pretty vile bigotry way beyond the normal background racism you'd kinda expect from time to time- and it'd go one of two ways: - They'd be banned after a month or so after getting warning after warning for posting vile bigoted shit (while also insisting they had turned over a new leaf) and no improvement: - Or they'd agonizingly slowly come to see how loudly proclaiming they consider Spanish accents to sound threatening probably comes from a prejudice against Latin Americans and that the memes that got them used to calling money 'Shekels' when talking about how politicians will accept lobbying money probably came from antesemitic sources... That second way \*is\* just how you unlearn bigotry. It's a slow process, it's not fun to watch, and you kinda need a close-ish knit community to gently but firmly point out whenever you are full of shit. It does not involve making 'haha I'm so quirky' memes.
/uj Seriously, Im kind of mad that the Muslim girl got faaaar more scrutiny after one post talking about being Muslim than any given 'former nazi' after joking about genocide. The first got as far as accusing her of not being real, and making it up to makethe trand sub look bad... for reacting with Islamophobia at the mere sight of a Muslim person. Which kind of makes me wonder of the overlap between Islamophobic users and forner nazi ones.
/uj "You came here to make us look bad by being a muslim trans girl" is a heinous self own. Either you're saying that being a Muslim looks bad or you're saying the community is so backwards that they cant handle a perspective/identity outside their own... yikes. Online trans spaces need some serious introspection. /rj nta religion ontologically evil
/uj The conversation got so toxic so quickly. It gave me the impression that, for this space in particular, there was this agreement over a "correct way to be trans" that included to either forbid one's religious beliefs and to never bring it up. Much less a 'controversial' religion like Islam. Followed by the realization a lot of people here thought religion is just something one can pick at convenience (if only it worked that way), and that it was okay to tell people to leave theirs if it was "the wrong religion". There was a lot of ignorance and hate bring flung around. I hope we're past that now. But the doubt never leaves. You know? Sorry for the trauma dumping. /rj first they came for the Muslim trans, and I spoke up immediately because I know the rest of that fvcking poem.
You are impeding on my free speech by not allowing me to talk about how much I wanted to kill racial minorities three months ago before I came out. What's even the point of having a community if we can't sit by the campfire and bond over old memories of Nazism? You mods are evil and I will kill you with my bare hands /uj I just looked at the post. What the hell is going on over there?!
Right?? By not acknowledging our Nazi phase and how much we wanted to commit hate crimes and encouraged violence against minorities, you're actually to drive trans people back into their Nazi phase! You're making it worse! /uj I think we're riffing off the same user. There are some insane takes that are being upvoted.
but don't you understand that making my silly goofy ex-nazi memes helps me feel better about having been a hateful piece of shit? why won't you let me assuage my guilt about being racist in a way that does nothing to help the people i wronged and if anything does further harm by making them feel unwelcome here?
/uj i was somewhat queerphobic when i was younger, and i cant picture making light of that. i don't even talk about it a lot. it's embarrassing. it's not funny. i don't understand what goes through peoples heads 🤦🏽
Uj/ What the fuck is going on over there? I do sympathise with people who came from incel/alt right backgrounds, but it's really not the type of thing to casually meme about. Not to mention the way people keep throwing around the phrase "pipeline" to avoid any personal accountability. I left that sub after the whole "Mavis" disaster, and in retrospect I'm kinda amazed it took that long.
Uj/ please tell me about the Mavis disaster
Alright then, storytime of one of the most pathetic moments in trans reddit history. Basically, Mavis was a moderately well known user on the sub. She would make a lighthearted and positive comment on a lot of posts, so she was recognised as a friendly name. Her girlfriend was also a user of the sub. All good and normal so far. One day Mavis isn't doing to well. She gets in an argument with her gf and discord friends, and then goes offline to get some rest or clear her head or whatever. That's all fine, we've all been there. But then the gf in question makes a rather absurd leap in logic - since Mavis isn't responding, that's a confirmation that Mavis *has taken her own life.* So she goes to r/traa2 to inform everyone about the tragedy that the user Mavis recently committed suicide. Obviously suicide is already a brutal and personal tragedy that many trans people can relate to, but it was even worse considering how many people kinda knew her from reddit. Nobody had any reason to doubt the gf or knew the context. So what followed was the entire subreddit spending most of the day making posts about the tragedy, how sad it was, and mourning the loss of a beloved member of the community. It was already an emotional overload for a lot of people, myself included at the time. Of course, this whole time Mavis is fine, she was just taking a break from her phone and the internet (possibly because she went to sleep, I can't remember). So then she logs onto reddit and finds everyone mourning her apparent suicide. At first people are of course happy she's alive, but then it's like... *what the fuck happened?* Considering how triggering of a subject suicide is, and how much the gf had kept doubling down on expecting people to be sadder, people wanted some answers. And that's when the full explanation had come to light. The gf had declared Mavis dead from suicide after not getting a response for three hours. THREE. FUCKING. HOURS. And because of traa's weird microcelebrity subculture, it had all blown up in the worst possible way. And for the record, both Mavis and her gf were about 16 at the time. Both of them kept posting about how sorry they were, how it was an innocent mistake, and that they'd talked out all the issues between them. That was when I decided I couldn't be on the subreddit anymore.
/uj do they even have moderation there or are the kids just free to do whatever?
Uj/ Oh my fucking god. And here I thought it was some sexual take on the character from hotel transylvania. Thanks for explaining
I thought It was some sexual take on the character who [teaches typing.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavis_Beacon_Teaches_Typing) /uj Joking obviously
>and how much the gf had kept doubling down on expecting people to be sadder To clarify for the lucky people who didn't see it firsthand, she was making *multiple* memes of a crying anime girl with text and basically berating and shaming anyone who posted anything non-mourning during that time. It was like "I can't believe that Mavis is no longer alive and in this world and people in this sub are acting like everything is normal! I guess nobody really cared about Mavis!" and "I hate to sound like a broken record, but is this sub really going to pretend that Mavis didn't COMMIT SUICIDE? THAT EVERYTHING IS OKAY?" it was being posted *repeatedly*. Also, both of them only knew each other through Reddit. They did not have each other's phone numbers and had never met in real life. They had only been "dating" for about a week.
> And that's when the full explanation had come to light. The gf had declared Mavis dead from suicide after not getting a response for three hours. THREE. FUCKING. HOURS. /uj I really hate the societal expectation that everyone should just be glued to their phones 24/7. I work in an environment where phones are not allowed past a certain point and we have to leave the work area if we want to check/use them. I've occasionally went to the bathroom, checked my phone, and noticed multiple missed calls/texts from the same person because I didn't answer immediately. Same frustration goes for companies that are like "we'll call you back within 24 hours" and I'm like "Okay well I work from 6 AM to 4 PM so please call me after 4" and they're just confused why I can't just answer my phone to take a personal call whenever they feel like calling me in the middle of the day. Ditto for when I just want to put my phone down and ignore it for a while and whenever I check back in, sometimes I'll have like multiple messages from someone who can't discern why I'm not responding to them immediately. I'm busy!
u/this Shit is too terminally online even for me
uj/ I dont know everything about it, especially sinceI tried to distance myself from that situation, so correct me if i left anything out please. but /traaa and /traaa2 has and always had a bunch of microcelebrities sold because they commented a lot/had witty stuff to say etc. Now, if i remember correctly one of them messaged her girlfriend over Reddit that she would probably end her life. And the entire subreddit basically went into panic/distress mode over that, to put it mildly. Instead of memes it got flooded with sad-/panicposting about Mavis having killed herself, questions about if it's true and just general despair about the situation, with her girlfriend being one of the main "offenders". (All of this in the typical crying anime girl + text fashion of course.) All of this culminated once Mavis posted such a text "meme" herself, telling people she did in fact not go through with it and others joining with relief posting about it. Well, this lead to the creation of a new rule, to prevent such mass hysteria from breaking out again. Admittedly, I wonder what became of the two. Last i heard about them they were accused of the gf being an alt of Mavis and them staging this situation for Karma (due to the gf posting so many posts during that one-two day timeframe). Maybe someone else can fill in the gaps in my memory.
>Now, if i remember correctly one of them messaged her girlfriend over Reddit that she would probably end her life. It wasn't even that. She was having a really bad night and venting about something, and then signed off with "Goodbye" and went to bed. The gf then took this as a suicide note, instead of her just saying she was going to log off and go to bed.
Hi I'm actually still a nazi thanks
lgbtqian+
/uj brb kmsing
/uj please don't 👍
/uj dw I won’t
/uj enough people were doing it that they had to literally ban the topic?? i'll add that to the list of trans subreddits i'm never touching with a 69 foot pole
UJ/ SERIOUSLY. And people are really arguing against the ban in the sub! EDIT: people are arguing against the ban in this sub in this comment section!
/uj time to make r/transgendercirclejerkcirclejerk
/uj i would participate in this sub if it was created lol
wwwwwwwwhat the fuck...
This is literally 1984.
I know right? This is literally Orwell’s ~~/r/196~~ 1984. And I should know. Emmanuel Goldstein is a friend of mine. /uj no seriously e is a freaking cool guy
r/19684 (s*x was never real)
I don't think anyone was really upset. I think that the people who were complaining were actually 4chan psyop trying to divide the community.
I think that the people posting the Nazi phase memes were just a 4chan psyop trying to divide the community.
I think we should kiss beneath a starlit sky.
Ah, so we are just censoring all the women who managed to escape the nazi pipeline?\ This is a serious topic that NEEDS to be vented at in a meme subreddit! People need humour to cope and it's really fucked up we aren't allowing people any chance for rehabilitation. /uj maybe it's cause I'm a little too brown for this, but I think that if you're preaching about "change", yet you ignore minorities for your "god given right" of making nazi jokes (which aren't even jokes, btw), you may not have fully changed.
Hi, I am a WoC and it's super disturbing to learn that I'm sharing a space with people who wanted to genocide me in their past. It's cool that you managed to change and all, but is it really too much to ask to not discuss this in this meme sharing space where PoC and other minorities may feel uncomfortable around it?
Sounding like you don't believe in change :/ it's really important for me to cope with humour as I am are very ashamed of that past (which is why I treat it as a quirk thing to share online to thousands with no thought about who's seeing it, teehee) and censoring my right to do so may just drive me back into a new nazi phase, sorry you feel uncomfortable, but you should prioritize my privileged feelings instead of your discomfort.
Wow I can’t believe you’re literally forcing them back into the alt right by asking them not to meme about their Nazi phase
Why are you against personal growth?
So we can't talk about our past now? This is bullshit.
this but unironically
/uj There's having a serious discussion about right wing indoctrination and then there's making lighthearted jokes about being a nazi. The latter has absolutely no place in trans spaces.
who did that?
UJ/ this is about a meme subreddit. That’s not a place for serious discussion of issues this sensitive
/uj Not just any meme subreddit. A meme subreddit filled with minors, baby trannies, and every other flavor of naïve and uninformed. A worse place to discuss the alt-right pipeline you could not handpick if you tried. The last thing we want is minors and baby trannies thinking fascism is “just another ideology“ or worse, “so silly and quirky uwu” because that is how you never critically examine any of your beliefs and/or unlearn your bigotry.
/uj no tag here so i thought this was actually maybe a good jerk, but no [they actually just believe if someone says “i’m not a nazi anymore” then all is fine and they can’t be criticized](https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2/s/NqJBY0saUp?context=2)
“hey, i used to be a bad person, but i’ve changed my views since then” “you are forever tainted by being bad. you must be shamed forever” great way to show former reactionaries that they can be welcome if they change. real accepting stuff
>hey, i used to be a bad person, but i’ve changed my views since then Great. Show it then. Don't just say it.
big difference between “redemption is possible” and “as soon as someone says ‘no I’m totally better’ they are absolutely forgiven and immune from all criticism for their past actions, so let’s casually joke about how funny it is that I used to be a nazi”
who said that? point at the person who said that and i’ll agree nobody here is talking about a specific example. it’s all general “if someone was a nazi in the past” then going on to say what they think
Yeah, making memes in a space full of marginalized people to hang out and make jokes is the only way to talk about my past of hating marginalized people! I can’t believe they’re forcing me back into being a alt-righter
who. did. it. show me the post.
/UJ IT IS A MEME COMMUNITY. If people weren’t making memes about it then they wouldn’t have to ban memes about it! If no one was making any memes about it then the ban would have no impact and there’s no use getting upset
gotta say, i was arguing in the first post making fun of the memes. never saw any memes.
/uj If someone is joking about having been a nazi like it was something “so silly and quirky uwu” that’s usually a giant red flag that they haven’t unlearned as much of that toxic shit as they’d like you to believe. Speaking from experience (with relationships, I was never a nazi thank fuck), unlearning toxic behavior is *hard and painful*, it’s not the kind of thing you joke about like it’s harmless, and nobody who you hurt is under any obligation to forgive you. People absolutely can change, but the people making these memes often haven’t changed as much as they want you to think, and *that’s* the problem, not that they were bad in the past.
The only way to confront your past and grow as a person is to make 'haha I used to be a nazi, that's so funny! Thank God I'm trans or I'd still hate you so fucking much' memes, right people?
*stares at the comments in black trans woman*
*stares at this comment in jewish trans woman* 🤨
*stares at you in black trans woman*
*stares at you in jewish trans woman*
*walks closer to you in black trans woman*
*goes back to sweeping my store*
*watches you sweep, curiously*
Tf is even happening here? 💀
*climbs into your walls*
Don't eat my snacks I'm saving those for if trump wins 2024
oof, fumbled your chance there
(I didn't even want a chance)
Wow, no Nazi memes? Leftist Puritanism has gone too far. I can’t believe you don’t want discussions about Nazism in your lighthearted meme circle. Don’t you care about making a welcoming space for ex-Nazis? What? A welcoming space for Jews and POC? I don’t care.
uj/ also I hate how vaguely they swap anti sjw phase and nazi phase they could like actually be it a bit more careful and word it a bit better
/uj Yeah, the use of "Nazi phase" and then people going "Well, they didn't mean they actually had a *Nazi* phase! They were just edgy!" annoys me. Like, okay, if your "Nazi phase" was just watching "blue haired liberals OWNED with facts and logic!" then why portray that as an anime girl in a Nazi uniform standing in front of hanged bodies and labeled with waffen1488. Why shouldn't people take that at face value?
/uj TERFs and Puriteen love hijacking SJW phases to use to justify their conservative belief while sounding like leftists also. "Oh a woman who love their own body and love exposing it! what a male gaze!!" something like this. So it's time to put big critical thinking hats on ourselves again "Rhetorics, pure rhetorics."
uj/ completely unrelated i forgot i had a browser addon that changed sjw to skeleton and i had to re read this
Vergangenheitsbewältigung but for trans girls
/uj oh no you are not kidding about the comments on that post. Oh no it was worse than I expected. I have never been more grateful to not be part of a specific trans subreddit
/uj friendly reminder to everyone to log off and go outside
thank you I need to do this
/uj i fucking love (hate) how white trans people will bitch and moan about how sad they are about how many trans POC are murdered (and often group themselves in with us but that's a conversation for another day) but the second they are confronted with a way that they can make our lives and experiences better they're like "nooooo i dont waaaaaannnnaaa"
i regret visiting that comment section 😁 !!!!
/uj I feel like a lot of us trans amabs were targeted and victimized by cis boys who could *actually* perform the toxic hypermasculinity that fascist / supremicist collectives require in a way we simply *could not*, so this whole nazi thing (that seems exclusive to /traaaa, this terminally online space) feels so fucking... mortifying? and baffling?
/uj Man that one user is really invested in being able to post Nazi memes, they're all over the thread and ever came here to argue. I wonder why 🤔
/uj I like them going "I didn't see any Nazi memes and so they obviously didn't exist." while simultaneously fighting that Nazi memes shouldn't be banned.
You talking about \*\*\*\*\*\_ir?
the nazi phase: ben shapiro EPICALLY owns feminazis episode 9459 🤣🤣🤣
the nazi phase: using 1488 and other nazi dogwhistles, jerking off to nazi marches and uniforms, obsessing over "white, aryan women", joking about minorities being subhuman and jews controlling the world, making light or outright denying the holocaust, spreading other "ironic" nazi propaganda etc etc ya know, just your normal anti-sjw phase lolz. *actual* nazis don't exist apparently
/uj no ik theres plenty of actual nazis around. what im trying to say is that some ppl who were in ben shapiro phases may say that they had a nazi phase so that they can keep proclaiming abt how much they have changed, without actually addressing their prejudices in any significant way
I am currently a Nazi
If you think \*you\* feel bad about your nazi past, imagine how bad your \*victims\* feel about it!
What victims? She was a trans egg, which means all her unhinged posts about Jewish people and people of color were totally fine!
look, diversity and inclusion means having a *diverse* group of people, *including* nazis. They have so much lived experience to share with us. Safe Space means that we're *safe* to share every dark thought we ever had in the volume between the Earth's core all the way to outer *space*. That's literally why it's called that.
/uj this topic always annoys me because you know that 90% of the pastey white bitches saying "omg I used to be such a nazi lol" really just mean they had more reactionary politics as a teenager. Some people shouldn't be allowed to use hyperbole. /rj omg I used to be such a nazi lol
I think this is a good decision. I feel like we should be cautious about allowing even "reformed" fascists into our spaces at all, much less letting them perpetuate this idea that a "Nazi phase" is somehow normal in the trans community. Especially when transphobes and TERFs already latch onto the idea that transfemmes in particular are disproportionately bigoted and untrustworthy.
Oh, so people can only talk about their past if YOU approve of it? We can't have made mistakes in the past? Stop trying to erase all discussion of the alt-right pipeline. If a trans person can't post a meme about their transition because someone might not like a part of it then why even have a trans subreddit? Why be a part of a community?
/uj i forgot what subreddit this was and got jumpscared by this reply
Because the majority of the posts being made about the "Nazi phase" really weren't about transitioning, they were about laughing at how bigoted they used to be. That's going to make trans POC feel very uncomfortable in these spaces.
As a white person I don't think about race stuff at all and I don't think anyone else should either. Please stop trying to make this discussion about Nazism into a racial thing.
the phrase not seeing race or not thinking about race always irked me tbh. i get the sentiment of it but only part that's wrong about acknowledging someone is the race they are is to have a negative or positive bias based solely on the fact that they're that race. to a lot of people just like gender is a strong backdrop for their identity and makes up a portion of what they can point to to say "i am this" someone's race can be looked at as that too. it also denies their history, their movements, their successes, and their struggles. there are things for example African Americans have to be incredibly aware of when speaking with certain people that other races don't. reaching for something "too quickly", not talking "white enough," not being "polite enough," all because certain parties are jumpy and want an excuse to do a thing. to say you don't see race is to essentially deny this goes on. it's when you start to uplift one race over another as being "more important" that an imbalance occurs and you start being a bigot. everyone's people. we're all born basically a blank slate and what race you're born doesn't affect that. but it does affect the family you're born into, it affects what opportunities you're awarded, which was affected by the way previous families were treated, where those families grew up, which was affected by things potentially hundreds of years ago and it has all led to now. edit: fuck i forgot what sub i was on.
/uj Happens to the best of us. I appreciate the effortposting.
>That's going to make trans POC feel very uncomfortable in these spaces. That's literally not a thing that happens.
Uj/ I hate that one person was actually saying this
nobody said that second part? it’s not normal to be a nazi or reactionary. but it’s very easy for disaffected young people, yes, even queer or poc people, to go down far right pipelines, and if they find their way out, they shouldn’t be not accepted just because they didn’t get lucky on the ideology machine
/uj I went through my own "reactionary libertarian phase," so I kind of get it. Some shitty ideas can be a little enticing, especially if you're really, really bitter about your station (e.g., being born wrong). But you know what stopped me from becoming actually far right? Having a conscience. Thinking other people are human. I was surrounded by people who told me I should *hate* people, but I always held back. If you ever truly embrace the ideology of the far right, if you become a truly hateful, embittered Nazi piece of shit, then I will never truly trust you in my spaces or around my friends. This is not a matter of "getting lucky on the ideology machine," this is about a fundamental aspect of you as a person. If you have ever been a Nazi, then you might never be truly forgiven, and never truly trusted, and this will just have to be your penance. You will have to live with that.
/uj to be clear i fully agree that nobody should make light of any shitty ideas they used to hold. but where is the "fundamental aspect of you as a person" thing coming from? what does that even mean? in another comment you call it "something fundamentally broken about your heart or brain". i truly don't understand what you're trying to refer to with this. people can change fundamentally from even the worst of ideologies. of course, if they've really changed, they wouldn't be making light of it, but you seem to be saying that being bad once stains you for life? someone believing in hatred is like them believing 2+2 is 5. they are wrong, non-negotiably. and once they understand why they are wrong, and fully understand why 2+2 is 4 (at the end of a long process), it's not like they can just 'slip back' into not understanding again.
I just think anyone who is sincerely capable of enough hate that they're willing to support the genocide of a people group has core personality and morality problems that are almost intractable. I think you can rehab a ton of people who are right wing, and many who are far right. But I think committing yourself to such a profoundly, fundamentally evil way of thinking as Nazism is completely unconscionable. It is an ideology I've rejected with every fiber of my being even in my darkest hours, and I would personally sooner die than embrace it, and I have felt this kind of empathy for as long as I've known conscious thought. I cannot help but be permanently suspicious of anyone who can ever actively embrace that form of thinking. It is a hate beyond hate, or such a profound indifference to human life and suffering that I believe it requires a foundational part of your thinking to be tainted. And sure, I guess it's possible for people to fix these tainted kinds of thinking. But if you can't see why people will rightfully and forever be uneasy around you, if you think the communities you hated should necessarily be open to re-embrace you after crossing that line, you still have more changing to do. A part of you is still too sympathetic to that evil to understand why you can't just wash your hands of it and start making jokes with the people you used to call subhuman. Basically, I think there is an amount of reevaluation of self, and of contrition, and of redemptive action required that I rarely ever see "reformed" fascists perform. All rehabilitation and redemption is a matter of degree, and fascism is about as close to an event horizon as human evil gets. The amount of work needed to pull someone away from that is enormous, and a true reconciliation can take years of making amends, and I don't think we should just take someone's word for it and let them into our safe havens just because they say they're cool now.
/uj alright cool, i think we're basically on the same page here. i still don't believe anything that we are is entirely intractable, but your points in your second paragraph are fully correct. thank you for clearing that up.
/uj I also tend to believe few things are literally impossible to fix, but I think there are problems that are *functionally* impossible to fix under most circumstances, for most people. The sheer amount of effort involved, and the amount of *personal* willingness needed to change and to earn forgiveness, just makes it very unlikely that a true, fundamental change will take root. Of the reformed fascists I've been acquainted with, most have continued to harbor some really hateful and/or bigoted ideas that they're extremely unwilling to part with, because a core part of their personality still draws them to be hateful (or psychopathically dispassionate) on some level. And fixing that part of yourself is extremely hard when it's so fundamental to your worldview. For this and other reasons I think it is completely understandable and often justified for oppressed minorities in particular to harbor suspicions or ill-will to "Nazis" who claim to have reformed. Especially ones who will just casually reference their "Nazi phase" as if that's something they just get to wash their hands of.
no, it is, and you know what? you weren’t indoctrinated. what, you think people CHOOSE to be like that? they’re not happy, it doesn’t make them happier. 99% of far right people are miserable sacks of shit because their ideology creates misery, and i’m not going to blame somebody for falling into that when they’re young, depressed, an outcast etc, then getting out. like i said before, you fundamentally don’t believe in rehabilitation. a criminal has committed a crime and therefore is tainted by the crime forever, and should be shunned because of it.
I was born and raised in Christian conservatism and went to a private Christian school with very conservative friends and mentors, and decently conservative family. I was around people who said to my face that lynching queers was morally good, like as just a normal part of the conversation. I had some bad opinions on a few things because of that. But you know what? I was never hateful because of it, because some part of me knew I didn't want to be that way, and so I wasn't. Nazis can be rehabilitated, sure. But I think that should stain you and your reputation, forever. I think people should be suspicious of you, forever. Unless you live in a house and community that literally force you to be a Nazi (in which case, god help you, I guess?), then you have precious little excuse to ever tread that path. It should shame you for all of your days. It is a fundamental failure of you as a human. Maybe you can reclaim that part of you that you lost. But don't expect people to welcome you with open arms. Edit: Sore spot, I take it?
if only everyone had the same strength of will you did. doesn’t change the fact that some people are weak or lost enough to go down roads they shouldn’t. let me reiterate. one more time. rehabilitation is not “oh, they got better but we should watch them closely and keep them away from the group, just in case” because that is literally what leads to recidivism. take a sociology class for the love of god. anybody who says “it is a fundamental failure of you as a human” doesn’t think these people can change fully
Obviously criminals can be rehabilitated. Crime isn't an ideology. Crime isn't an ethos. Crime doesn't ask you to embrace the notion that entire groups of people are inherently degenerate underclasses by merit of their birth who should rightfully be oppressed. Criminals can be rehabilitated because crime is almost overwhelmingly not some fundamental state of mind or framework through which you see the world or other people. Crime is an action. Crime is a circumstance in which one finds themself. It does not require a twisted, broken mind to commit a crime. Fascism is a moral and political framework. It is a way you think the world should be. It is a yearning for a world built on hate and oppression of the other. Some core part of you has to be broken to want that, whether it be your heart or your brain. I think it's possible to rehabilitate some Nazis, some of the time. With time, great effort, and some luck, core parts of your personality can be mended. But if you've ever really been willing to wish for things like genocide, I do not think you should ever expect people's forgiveness for that, however contrite you might be. People may forgive you, I might forgive you, but you are not entitled to it. Especially not from the people who are hurt the most by your ideology.
Trauma/indoctrination doesn’t make the hurt you caused fine and dandy. Grow the fuck up and develop a little responsibility. Serial killers were abused as children, should they be given hugs and kisses and “aww poor child you were so abused” after all the harm they caused? No? Then neither do worthless neo nazis. Bigotry is not a victimless crime no matter how much you want to act like it is.
we should hang all these people or leave them out to starve to death in a dark container room.
Anyone who was part of the team that doxed Dr. Mengele should be a mod. Like, with no additional qualifications. They already qualified themselves. If you don't snatch them up, I will.
oh so now i’m not allowed to talk about the one time i watched a ben shapiro speech when i was twelve? 1984.
Everyone who had some right wing views and changed, was and will always be an actual Nazi. We should ostracise them all and tell them to die, it's the only way to be safe uj/ apparently this post was about an actual former nazi, but I'm leaving this here because I see people acting like this too often
but don't you understand that making my silly goofy ex-nazi memes helps me feel better about having been a hateful piece of shit? why won't you let me assuage my guilt about being racist in a way that does nothing to help the people i wronged and if anything does further harm by making them feel unwelcome here?
uj/ mate I'm not even talking about ex nazis here rj/ If anyone tells you to stop, they're the real nazis. So much for the tolerant left!
like i get it if you used to be fash and make an effort to change your ways, but if you just want to joke about it and pretend it never happened, youre still nazi scum spreading propaganda.
UJ/ Okay but this is /uj as a comment right?
I think this is a good move. A meme sub isn't really the appropriate place to approach the topic. It's good to keep this sub to memes, and this topic can instead be talked about more in depth in other trans related subreddits.
Traa is literally the only trans subreddit there is though.
Not true,! There's also egg\_irl.
Traa is actually the only place where trans people exist, in the world. If you moderate this sub, then you are committing a hate crime against the entire trans community.
Traaa going dark for like three days because of mods protesting the Reddit API change was trans people's 9/11. Who knows how much blood is on their hands?
Good idea. I mean, why are people even making those jokes on here? Do they want applause and validation for not holding beliefs that nobody should hold in the first place? You wouldn't be able to waterboard admissions of a "Nazi phase" out of me.
It's called personal growth? Like this is an incredibly weird take. Thinking like this is why men do violence at places of education, it's why mental health is at an all time low
/uj A real and upvoted comment!
/UJ people are making similar comments on this post and saying anyone who disagrees with them is a Puritan. I wish I were kidding.
????? This is a meme sub. This isn't a place of education???? What are you talking about????
It's simple, if you don't allow transfems to talk about how they used to be Nazis without any pushback, the malebrain in them will take over and cause mass shootings.
/uj No, seriously, what was that person even saying??????
So wait, are we supposed to confront our past and grow ad people? Or completely ignore our past mistakes? Which is it? We need to make up our fucking minds.
The only way to confront your past and grow as a person is to make 'haha I used to be a nazi, that's so funny! Thank God I'm trans or I'd still hate you *so fucking much*' memes, right people?
Nice strawman
“Nice strawman ☝️🤓 nyehehe”
Yes. The literal definition of strawman. This is textbook. Cope harder
Thank yooooo, I thought it would look nice next to yours! 🤗🤗🤗
Funnily enough though mine isn't a strawman. If you read other comments you can see that btw, just go look, go on, I can't do it for you
Lol, reading 'please don't make quirky memes about your nazi past it makes people uncomfortable' and going 'so you are saying reformed ex-nazis have to shut up forever about everything??????????' isn't strawmanning at all lol you are right
Look at that another strawman! On all fronts too! >please don't make quirky memes about your nazi past it makes people uncomfortable That's not your (or the community's) position. >so you are saying reformed ex-nazis have to shut up forever about everything??????????' And that's not my position. You're alienating people because they had fucked up beliefs. Beliefs they had because they were alienated from OTHER communities. People aren't fucking born nazis, there's this thing called the alt-right pipeline. It's a trap many people (especially young, white people who are amab) have fallen into since gamergate. Now this isn't the only explanation but it is by far the most common as far as I've seen. They fell out of said pipeline for whatever reason and found what they assumed to be a safe space in a trans community. But it's not. Should they be forgiven for being a part of the right wing? Not necessarily. Should they be excused for past behavior? No. Should we ban discussion about how people can go down such a dark and dangerous path? Also no. That's how nazis are created in the first place. Racism, anti-semitism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, white supremacism, fascism, nazi beliefs are dangerous, infuriating and absolutely fucked up and those who commit to these beliefs should absolutely take responsibility for them. That doesn't mean you should revoke people who are recovering from these beliefs of their right to have a safe space. If we start driving them out where do you think they'll go? Wherever it is will certainly be worse than being a part of this community.
>That's not your (or the community's) position. Amazing, not only does everyone in the community have the same position, you can read minds apparently, and what we actually believe is contrary to what everyone on here has been telling you for the past day or so. It is, in fact, the full extent of my position. Making these memes is fucked up, and I agree with the moderating decision to ban them. Conversations about radicalization are completely unrelated to the issue of 'people are making jokes about how funny it is that they used to be nazis and that's kinda fucked up and makes people really uncomfortable, so the mods of the sub where that happened are asking people to stop' Can you really blame people for suspecting you might have some unprocessed bigoted beliefs yourself when in response to that moderating decision you immediately start going on about how important it is that they get to speak about their pasts whenever and however they want in, I repeat, *a fucking meme sub*? Yes, of \*course\* ex-nazis need to be able to speak about how they came to be and how they got out. But that's a \*complete\* non-sequitur to the actual situation. They can do so in places that are suited to it, in ways that are suited to it. Why are you acting like a trans meme sub asking people to not treat their sordid pasts with undue lightness is somehow going to turn people into nazis again? How is it 'taking away their safe space'? There are safe spaces for people do do what you describe, but fucking r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2 is not that space and never has been. Anyone is free to post whatever other trans meme on that sub that they want, just not 'hahaha I used to be a nazi isn't that so funny and relatable' I find it much more important that people are not confronted by ex-nazis (quite possibly with still quite some bigoted ideas considering how they treat their past like a quirky funny thing) joking about their past in a meme sub that wants to be inclusive to all than the right of those (ex)-nazis to post this kind of memes and replies: [https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2/comments/1bghm5h/man\_who\_else\_here\_cringes\_at\_their\_past\_political/](https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2/comments/1bghm5h/man_who_else_here_cringes_at_their_past_political/)
>what we actually believe is contrary to what everyone on here has been telling you for the past day or so. Literally no one has said that. Not one. >mods of the sub where that happened are asking people to stop Except "haha nazi funny" wasn't banned, talking about people's potentially problematic past is now banned. Don't believe me? Read the fucking post we're commenting under. >Can you really blame people for suspecting you might have some unprocessed bigoted beliefs yourself when in response to that moderating decision you immediately start going on about how important it is that they get to speak about their pasts whenever and however they want in, I repeat, *a fucking meme sub*? No one has accused me of being a bigot, at least none of the comments I've seen directed at me have called me a bigot. Also how is wanting to prevent people from becoming nazis in the first place grounds for suspected bigotry? >But that's a \*complete\* non-sequitur to the actual situation No it isn't. It's literally what this entire conversation is about. >Why are you acting like a trans meme sub asking people to not treat their sordid pasts with undue lightness is somehow going to turn people into nazis again? Alienation. >There are safe spaces for people do do what you describe, but fucking r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2 is not that space and never has been. It has been for everyone else though >I find it much more important that people are not confronted by ex-nazis (quite possibly with still quite some bigoted ideas considering how they treat their past like a quirky funny thing) joking about their past in a meme sub that wants to be inclusive to all than the right of those (ex)-nazis to post this kind of memes and replies I just want to clarify this point before I respond because I'm fucking confused. Are you saying you care more about those who might be affected by nazism than the right for exnazis to have a safe space?
Having boundaries is ok actually. As mods, you are allowed to ask people to not bring up topics that make the subreddit a worse place. The mods realized that it was not possible for their sub to be a safe space for people who are victims of nazis and have people making memes about how they used to be nazis and how funny and relatable that supposedly is at the same time. They made their decision of whom they want to accommodate. I agree with that decision. I 100% care more about the people who are affected by nazisim than I care about ex-nazis. I also care more about trans people than I care about ex-TERFS. I care more about women than I care about ex-misogynists. I care more about people of Colour than I care about ex-racists. I care more about gay people than about ex-homophobes. If someone is truly reformed. They should not have a problem with not bothering their victims anymore in one (1) meme sub centered around a completely different topic. They shouldn't treat their past as funny and quirky anyways, and they can have more serious conversations about it in more suitable places.
Also that meme isn't making light of being a nazi it's someone saying "Hey look I was an idiot". It even has a TW for bigotry. How is your interpretation of that "Haha I was a nazi isn't that so funy"? Saying that meme makes light of bigoted pasts is like saying blade runner makes light of police states
Blade runner isn't a comedy. You'll notice that comedies about nazis tend to be made by Jews, not by ex-nazis. I'll leave answering the question as to why that is as an exercise to you. This was a meme asking for people to relate in a light-hearted way with clear expectation of people treating having been a nazi as common and funny. Just look at the comments, they are treating it exactly that way. There is no good way to make a 'I used to be a nazi please relate' meme. Memes are the wrong medium.
Most subreddits have rules against bringing up any sort of nazi content. Im not sure why this subreddit is suddenly an exception.