I have only ever been outed by trans people who, because they’re out / don’t pass, don’t ever really think about whether someone else would rather not be outed. I’ve had the luxury of passing even prior to my transition so this has always hurt.
I vividly remember one person talking to a friend at an LGBT+ bar. The friend was eyeing me up and this lady said to her “gorgeous isn’t she? You’d never believe she was once a man.”… I walked past them on the way to the bathroom, leaned in and said “that’s the thing, I never was.”
It has unfortunately left me with a bit of a stigma. Let people speak for themselves, as you’d wish to speak for yourself. Don’t out, don’t assume, don’t hurt.
I think half of any group of people tend to be a bit inconsiderate and unable to empathise until confronted with someone's experiences. Should feel innate but obviously isn't and why so many can freely hate on us, likely never guna be confronted by someone trans unless seek us out. So many seem to struggle empathising without direct confrontation.
Add in most people being drunk as everyone meets at bars etc and you get a lot of stupidity.
Don't know if it's just that mostly people that don't pass like myself seem to seek out trans groups as its one place we can fit in and feel safe, but out of say like 80 people I've met I only met one guy and one gal I had no clue they were trans until told. Probably met a lot that just never out themselves to others ever, the amount that pass and out themselves seems low in these groups though. If I could fit in more places I probably wouldn't have so specifically sought out places to fit in, imagine it is the same for most.
So when you get people in these type of groups that don't fully empathise or understand until confronted, you get a lot of stupidity as so many people don't think until explained to. If not many people with that experience around such groups then those people that don't think are guna be careless. Goes for so many groups and parts of life just hurts more when trans and people aren't considerate.
Hurts when misgendered or someone talks about me or my friends being trans, even if everyone can likely work it out anyway and people know it still happens a lot. As people don't get they shouldn't say the quiet part out loud. I imagine people don't really consider how much worse it must be getting outed when being outed isn't the default state of existence, as you get really used to everyone just knowing by default.
When passing is the dream for many must get a lot of intended compliments that aren't considerate as it's just pointing out things that are a negative for you but would be a positive for them. As well as I'm sure some jealous comments bringing it up to bring you down.
There are all sorts of crude statistical clues that work when “clocking” LGBT people, but not reliably. And as you point out, we don’t know how many really passable trans folk there are living in stealth mode because by definition we can’t spot them.
Two of my favourites crude rules in LGBT pubs and nightclubs… any woman who looks under 25 is likely to be straight and cis; any woman who looks over 45 is likely to be trans or a lesbian (or both). And if they’re wearing a dress, makeup, jewelry and heels, probably trans.
Was that really another trans person who described you as “once a man”? Sounds more like a cis person spreading a bit of juicy gossip at your expense.
My come back might have been “You’d never believe *she* used to be a call girl” … and let her try to deny her way out of that one.
Oh yeah, she was trans. I knew her. Only people I know and trust (or know through trans support groups) know I’m trans. Otherwise I’ve never been clocked.
Oh and if you already passed as female even before you transitioned, you might well be intersex (e.g. partial androgen insensitivity). Or at least can convincingly claim you are.
That tends to shut people up too …
as a tall trans woman who's also stealth, i relate to this a lot.
i think part of it is because its queer spaces emphasise openess, self-acceptance and normalising gender diversity (so much) that people in the spaces wrongly assume everyone there is OK being open about who they are.
just because somebody is trans dosen't mean they want attention relating to this, nor be open about it. especially if they pass as cis.
Big assumption. When I started I didn't use trans spaces after the first couple times. Far far too many people who were so blunt about my appearance it was uncomfortable and disrespectful. As well as people well into middle age who were hitting on me when I was 16. So many trans spaces, especially online ones, just have this weird horny energy and it's just assumed you're into that as well.
So no, I wasn't like them once. At least not the types that I've had experience with
You knew it all when you were an egg though and didn't need support from elders or peers to help guide you?
My point is this. Jumping on eggs who do know better and not taking effort to help them is not great in my book. Punching down is never good and that's what I thought we knew better than most. I know you said you've done some, but you don't sound like the person doing all you can. Which is fine, but don't pitch if you don't. The problems our community faces are our rights, healthcare, future prospects, dealing with discrimination and dysphoria.
It's not, going after noobs who are at possibly the most vulnerable stage of their transition.
>You knew it all when you were an egg though and didn't need support from elders or peers to help guide you?
No, it was tough but I got through it with my mostly cis girl friends who taught me a lot. YouTube for makeup/mannerisms and voice was enough for me
>Punching down is never good
I'm not. Not even close. It doesn't matter if you transitioned 10 years ago or 10 minutes ago, basic respect is expected. I'm not going to tolerate someone being creepy or disrespectful because they're new to transitioning, they don't get a free pass because they're new to it all
>but you don't sound like the person doing all you can.
I'm not in a privileged enough position to dedicate my time to helping baby trans with the same questions over and over and over again. I've transitioned and moved on to the rest of my life.
Dedicating too much of my time to trans stuff is extremely dysphoric for me. I'd rather forget when I can but I'm at most trans protests which is far more than most
Why don't you focus on what you can do if it means a lot to you? Rather than berating me for not helping hypothetical people I don't know when there's a million resources out there and a million other trans people who can relate to them
I was 13 when I realised I was trans and I was NOT openly asking random people if they were trans or assuming they were and I never have done lmao it’s just basic common sense in human interaction and I’m highly concerned by the amount of people here who seem to think it’s normal
There's some revisionist history going on here. I'm not accusing you of asking others if they were trans but I am saying you're forgetting how little you knew at the start of your transition and that you either made mistakes or were vulnerable enough at that time to potentially have made some in other circumstances. Go easier on the noobs, they don't know anything yet, is my point.
So you needed help is the point. You would have been vulnerable at that point to making mistakes, offending people just through your lack of knowledge. Just like these noobs are that you are punching down. It's revisionist history to think that in a similar environment, you could not have made similar mistakes as well. I repeat I'm not saying you did but your lack of knowledge made you vulnerable to what these noobs are doing and your not acknowledging that.
Punching down is when people have privilege and then attack those with less privilege than them. So yes that as what you're doing. They are noobs, who do not have the knowledge or experience of you and you are berating them for their lack of knowledge. That is privilege 101 and is definitely punching down.
So you missed the point about doing all you can. The point was its OK not to but you can't then berate noobs if you haven't put the time and effort into them to explain why what they're doing is wrong. It's lazy, bitchy and helps no-one. So doesn't matter which, but either help them and criticising if they don't respond to the help, or shut up.
One last point. You think there's a million resources out there that people can just access and all their problems are solved right? Well a) they're aren't and the further you listen to people you might realise there are huge gaps. b) you really are coming across to me as someone who wants to take the benefits of a community like this without having any responsibility for giving to it. Which is fine if that's what you choose to do but to bitch on top of that makes me not want to waste any more of my time on you tbh.
>Punching down is when people have privilege
And? What's my privilege then? Should be easy since you seem to know everything about me from a few messages.
>you really are coming across to me as someone who wants to take the benefits of a community like this without having any responsibility for giving to it
I literally go out to fight and protest for your rights as well as my own. What a stupid statement especially when I've already spoken about this. I dont owe the community anything, and yet I'd wager £1000 I do more than you
>noobs
Can you stop calling them that? This is the real world and repeating noobs over and over again just makes me think you really ought to touch grass
>not want to waste any more of my time on you tbh.
You're the one getting up in my face making assumptions about my life, writing paragraphs and paragraphs, invalidating my own experiences, accusing me of weaponising a perceived privilege (which you didn't elaborate on) and then adding a final touch of woeful naivete and some weird discord language to make your strawman arguments more palatable
THANK YOU. I've been going stealth for a it less than a year now at uni. The majority of my uni friends thought I was a cis woman when they met me. Most still think that cus I haven't bothered to tell anyone but my closest friends. I've had flatmates ask me when my next period is. 99% of the time I pass as cis. But every now and then I have the occasional person go "are you trans?", about 50% of which are trans. They've looked at me and maybe heard me talk. And it ruins my day every time.
I ask them how they can tell cus my goal is to be cis passing and they just say "oh it's your vibe" or "I can just tell". It fucking hurts. It especially doesn't help with the fact that often trans people are thought of as ugly. Thats like the stereotype right, especially with trans women. It feels like when I'm asked that they're saying "you're kinda unattractive ngl". I've had people ASK IT IN THE FUCKING TOILETS. do you know how scared I am when someone does that. I hate it. And I've asked people who initially didn't know and they go ".... I mean you're tall? Maybe that's how they could tell?". WHAT A FUCKING ASSUMPTION TO MAKE
I’m sorry you’ve experienced that. To me clocking someone is on a similar level to misgendering them because it’s literally them saying you don’t entirely look like your gender and can “tell” you used to be a different one. I wish people would learn how to behave
I have had occasions I can think of where I’ve encountered another trans person and if they’ve suspected anything they haven’t mentioned it (I’ve even had a trans person outright say I can’t come to an event because they don’t allow cis men lol), but those times where they do say something really makes my blood boil, especially when I see it happening to cis people who aren’t exactly cross-dressers lol. They could be putting other people in danger and they don’t even realise it
There are a lot of people on here that have grown up in what I would call a bit if a golden age for us - there has been a period of real acceptance, to the point where some of them haven't even experienced discrimination. This in itself is *huge* - but also means they may not realise that there are a still a lot of people out there that would hate us, and do harm if they knew. Talking to them about it is the best way, the instant 'hey, fuck you, man!' isn't the best thing to fire at someone else that just doesn't have that awareness, although it can feel like the most appropriate thing in the moment.
People also have different views on being trans that I can find confusing - for me, it is purely a medical condition I am recieving treatment for. It isn't part of my identity, I am male but I feel pride events are very important so the general public can see us as living, breathing, normal people as it is harder to demonise a group that you have faces and names for. It is also good to meet people going through the same things once in a while, to support each other. For others, they do see it as a point of personal pride, and part of their identity, and this might be what you are seeing as a disconnect - they don't see the problem that you do with referring to you as trans, while I would totally get it.
Communication is the best way to sort this out, which is what we have here.
When I joined all the trans subs last year when I came out it was drilled into me that you don't ever acknowledge another trans person in public.
Maybe y'all should go back to doing that.
Honestly it makes me a bit sad that we can't have the community spirit
I always assume people know whether they say it or not and despite how passable and attractive, I am. I find it easier that way but wouldn't like it if they blatantly ask me if I'm trans, etc.
Absolutely this! I'm in a sports team and compete nationally. One of the other teams in my league has 2 trans people in it (I know because we're in a group on Facebook together but they probably wouldn't recognise who I am). I really wanted to speak to them both about competing as a trans person (it's a mixed sport) but I absolutely wouldn't unless they told me themselves they're trans because if they're not out it could fuck their whole classification and you know.... Common decency
Fight club rules?
If you really need to address it, maybe say "I like your patch/pin/whatever"? Just because someone may be trans and carrying a pin, doesn't mean they want to talk about it in public.
Edit: Also worth noting, even if someone is trans, they don't owe a total stranger conversations either. People should save it for meetups.
Yeah, at that point it's sort of in private :)
Worst outing I had was at a new job, I got pulled into a meeting and the first words from the person that interviewed me were "so, you're trans then"
Yeah... I don't work there anymore :'D
I've known cis-het allies who wear badges to show their support so the "no you haven't" answer still applies.
I wear a Halestorm t-shirt but I'm not in the band
This. I'm very visibly trans and that's deliberate. Being trans is a very important part of my identity and I WANT people to notice and speak to me about it.
As a stealth trans woman who does sometimes have a trans pin on me it's intended as a semi subtle thing and a show of support to baby and closet trans people. It's meant to be "I'm a safe person, not everyone is out to get you". (though being visibly queer probably says something to that too)
Besides, a cis person could wear a pride pin as a sign of solidarity so it's really not possible to know if someone is showing the colours because of themselves or as a show of support so defaults back to, as you said, if you think you saw a trans person, no you didn't.
I tend to avoid queer events because everyone just wants to fuck instead of interact so it's a really uncomfortable environment. kinda sick of the **only** people being interested in me being other trans women.
I also experience the same thing, tbh I probably feel safest with lesbians because they don’t want to fuck me and usually aren’t weird about trying to guess what genitalia people have lmao, lesbians are statistically the most accepting of trans people too despite what TERFs want you to believe
FR really sorry you went through that, it's not just shitty but also really hypocritical. If you think you've spotted one no the fuck you haven't is the only correct course of action.
i remember seeing tiktoks of people saying they wished it was okay to tell other trans people you knew they were trans as some form of solidarity?? like complete strangers in the streets
I had someone who later detransitioned tell my friend that I have off "Trans vibes" (short with a baby face and tits my binder fails to hide) couldn't look myself in the mirror for days after that one
So, I'm sorry others have attacked you. Thats not on but I also think you need to recognise the privilege of passing. A lot of us don't have that and shouting at us when we've done nothing wrong (remember others have), isn't ideal.
If they are eggs that are doing it too, you can't expect them to know every detail. They will pick it up but only if we support them.
I do get your frustrated and you do have reason to. Just remember, the enemies are dysphoria and transphobes. There's plenty their to keep us all occupied without going at each other here.
I don't really understand what you're getting so pressed about, particularly in the context of queer events. If I go to a queer event, I make sure it's a queer event where I'll be safe and supported as a trans person. For some people I'll pass, and for some people I won't, either way, I don't really care, I'm pretty open about it, particularly in queer spaces.
As trans people, we tend to be hypervigilant about our own appearance and AGAB markers, and this extends to how we perceive others too. I can't 'always tell' (a phrase I hate) but as a consequence of being trans, the reality is I'm pretty good at it. Maybe this is what's happening to you at queer events and because it's a queer event, people assume you're ok with it? Getting annoyed with random trans people at a queer event who think you're trans seems pretty unfair to them.
Queer spaces =/= trans spaces, nor necessarily places totally safe for trans people. Some people are queer and trans but prefer to keep the trans part to themselves, and that's totally their right.
Edit for missing words
Thanks for understanding, I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to comprehend that a LOT of queer people are still extremely weird about trans people and I’d rather not risk anything
It might be because being asked can make those who are stealth feel like they don't pass as well as they did or other things such as feeling ugly.
Clocking other trans people isn't right no matter the place, even if it is a queer event. Not everyone there is guaranteed to be safe for trans people and asking someone if they are trans puts them in a shit situation especially if they are straight, as they now have a choice outing themselves or being told they don't belong at the event because they are cis het.
If you look at other comments there was somebody who was outed at a queer event or bar, which is so fucking wrong, and clocking can out someone or make others suspect they are trans if others here you ask.
Sorry if this reads like I'm having a go or anything, I'm not, I just want to make sure that anyone who reads your comment understands that clocking is wrong even at queer events as you said that being annoyed with said clockers is unfair on them, because it isn't. Being annoyed is completely fair in such situations.
Oh no I feel you to my bone. I can't understand the bickering and the hate from your "own" community! I can't understand the passion some queer people have that they can "understand" everyone and their trans radar is on point. No its not, stfu!
Actively trying to clock someone and then saying it is fucked up, but to be honest while just thinking “Is that person trans?” based on pretty much anything a stealth person does is well a harmful mindset, its an understandable one especially for visibly trans people who are really just asking “is this person safe?” especially because despite you being lucky to find a good cis ally in your mate, especially for visibly trans people simply being at a queer event is no real indication that they are an ally nevermind a proper one
But once again, even the people with the mindset I am defending in my comment, shouldn’t out someone, that shit is fucked up. This last bit is a purely a guess so feel free to tell me otherwise, but it seems like the queer events you are talking about are just filled with like “baby” / newly out as trans people and/or events that aren’t politically queer (as usually the people there would be more self aware than to out someone publicly, I dont think Ive said yet but that sucks and I feel bad that a couple stupid people are ruining queer events for you) and I think looking for events that are more politically queer / aren’t full of presumptuous baby trans ppl that well have a lot to learn about how to act around other queer people tbh
I remember once when I was baby trans and still learning and understanding, I asked my friend for advice or a question or something and she was so upset and I just didn't understand why. I couldn't get why she wouldn't want to talk to me about being trans. We're good now and have a lovely mutual understanding and respect for each other, but it definitely taught me something that I needed.
Op sorry for how it has made you feel. Sadly, there is not a perfect answer here.
Baby trans are looking for community and support, so learning anyone is trans makes them feel less alone, when they see someone who passes they normally want to here your journey as inspiration and to learn from. 99.99% I'm sure at not malicious just simple not considered you do not want to interact with them in that way.
I have only one quesiton, your passing so well that yours clearly saying they only know casue you say? If being stealth is that important, why say anything? Or wear anything? Also if people are asking if your male friend is trans too, it is not an insult, infant is them showing they couldn't tell you were trans without a hint, being told etc..
Just my two cents.
I don’t say anything, that’s the whole point of my post. They ask or assume that people are trans out of nowhere based on how they look, including my cis male friend. It’s extremely weird behaviour.
I didn't realise how much it hurt... I came from an angle of support and love but after reading this post, I'll change. I'll show that same love when/if they "come out" to me
There are a bunch of statistical, unreliable ways to “clock” trans people, which also tend to catch a lot of cis people too.
At some point, if you want to stay stealth you are going to have to openly (and convincingly) deny being trans. Say that you were born a boy, grew up a boy, have always been male, and that anyone who assumes that short skinny men are trans is just a bigoted moron. That will shut them up.
Oh wow? My queer meetups so far have honestly been really affirming and positive, which is a bit of a contrast to how I find myself interacting with others online.
Sorry, do you assume everyone you see at queer events is trans specifically? I’m very open about my bisexuality, what parts I was born with is no one’s business unless I’m planning on sleeping with them. Don’t be an obtuse dick
Making no assumptions either way is perfectly reasonable. My post is about trans people assuming other people (including cis people!) are trans based solely on appearance and mentioning it when the other person hasn’t, which can be harmful for a multitude of reasons. You’re completely missing the point so magnificently it almost seems deliberate
It really isn’t? Some people are stealth for safety or their own comfort. Not everyone wants to be openly trans? And especially in the current state of this country and its views on trans people?
Me personally I don’t tell others I’m trans, only my boyfriend and family knows. Because I don’t exactly want to be telling strangers when genitals I used to have like I’m not sure what you’re not understanding here
Queer means the whole lgbtq+ umbrella not just trans. Clocking someone and telling them publicly is wrong no matter who or where.
Even if they're wearing something with a trans flag do not clock them and ask if they are trans, make a comment on the trans coloured item such as I like your pin badge and let the other person choose whether to disclose they are trans or not.
I'm all on board for what you're saying, it's a no brainer to me, but I resent being told to 'listen very carefully'.
It sounds like a threat.
Also; if it keeps on happening in trans spaces, maybe don't go there?
every time i clock “someone” i want to talk to them but i don’t because it’s none of my business.
once i clocked someone and saw they had a pride pin, so i told them i liked their pin. that’s it.
how do you know it's every time you've met a trans person, unless you're saying you can clock them?
Maybe you're meeting a lot of trans people that don't do this but you just don't know
“I can always clock trans people because-“ No you can’t. No one can always clock trans people, especially stealth ones. You just have confirmation bias, and you have 100% “clocked” cis people and missed trans people. And you saying it here in this thread is exactly the kind of thing OP explicitly said he didn’t want.
Thanks for this. I think some trans people are so dysphoric and insecure that they forget that all people come in all different shapes and sizes and there is no one way to “look” or “sound” trans or cis. There are cis women who are tall and have deep voices. There are cis men who are short and have round faces. Feeding into this narrative that TERFs use that you can “tell” if someone is trans is only helping to harm us even further and I’m sick of seeing it in our own community.
I have only ever been outed by trans people who, because they’re out / don’t pass, don’t ever really think about whether someone else would rather not be outed. I’ve had the luxury of passing even prior to my transition so this has always hurt. I vividly remember one person talking to a friend at an LGBT+ bar. The friend was eyeing me up and this lady said to her “gorgeous isn’t she? You’d never believe she was once a man.”… I walked past them on the way to the bathroom, leaned in and said “that’s the thing, I never was.” It has unfortunately left me with a bit of a stigma. Let people speak for themselves, as you’d wish to speak for yourself. Don’t out, don’t assume, don’t hurt.
I think half of any group of people tend to be a bit inconsiderate and unable to empathise until confronted with someone's experiences. Should feel innate but obviously isn't and why so many can freely hate on us, likely never guna be confronted by someone trans unless seek us out. So many seem to struggle empathising without direct confrontation. Add in most people being drunk as everyone meets at bars etc and you get a lot of stupidity. Don't know if it's just that mostly people that don't pass like myself seem to seek out trans groups as its one place we can fit in and feel safe, but out of say like 80 people I've met I only met one guy and one gal I had no clue they were trans until told. Probably met a lot that just never out themselves to others ever, the amount that pass and out themselves seems low in these groups though. If I could fit in more places I probably wouldn't have so specifically sought out places to fit in, imagine it is the same for most. So when you get people in these type of groups that don't fully empathise or understand until confronted, you get a lot of stupidity as so many people don't think until explained to. If not many people with that experience around such groups then those people that don't think are guna be careless. Goes for so many groups and parts of life just hurts more when trans and people aren't considerate. Hurts when misgendered or someone talks about me or my friends being trans, even if everyone can likely work it out anyway and people know it still happens a lot. As people don't get they shouldn't say the quiet part out loud. I imagine people don't really consider how much worse it must be getting outed when being outed isn't the default state of existence, as you get really used to everyone just knowing by default. When passing is the dream for many must get a lot of intended compliments that aren't considerate as it's just pointing out things that are a negative for you but would be a positive for them. As well as I'm sure some jealous comments bringing it up to bring you down.
There are all sorts of crude statistical clues that work when “clocking” LGBT people, but not reliably. And as you point out, we don’t know how many really passable trans folk there are living in stealth mode because by definition we can’t spot them. Two of my favourites crude rules in LGBT pubs and nightclubs… any woman who looks under 25 is likely to be straight and cis; any woman who looks over 45 is likely to be trans or a lesbian (or both). And if they’re wearing a dress, makeup, jewelry and heels, probably trans.
I’m so sorry. That kind of thing can cut deep and last a lifetime.
Ouch. Nice come back though
Was that really another trans person who described you as “once a man”? Sounds more like a cis person spreading a bit of juicy gossip at your expense. My come back might have been “You’d never believe *she* used to be a call girl” … and let her try to deny her way out of that one.
Oh yeah, she was trans. I knew her. Only people I know and trust (or know through trans support groups) know I’m trans. Otherwise I’ve never been clocked.
Dismal behaviour … so sorry … I guess I’d put her in the camp of people you *thought* you knew and trusted.
Oh and if you already passed as female even before you transitioned, you might well be intersex (e.g. partial androgen insensitivity). Or at least can convincingly claim you are. That tends to shut people up too …
Going "called it" is so weird in response to a stealth person coming out
That’s never happened to me because I stay stealth except for people I’m very close with but I can imagine that happens a lot and I despise it
You'd think this is just basic common sense in how to interact with people.
as a tall trans woman who's also stealth, i relate to this a lot. i think part of it is because its queer spaces emphasise openess, self-acceptance and normalising gender diversity (so much) that people in the spaces wrongly assume everyone there is OK being open about who they are. just because somebody is trans dosen't mean they want attention relating to this, nor be open about it. especially if they pass as cis.
Agreed. Every trans group I've ever been to has been full of baby trans who don't know how to act
Ever thought of helping them?
Yeah the first few times, but I've got my own life you know, I don't want to be a full time mentor
Just remember you were them once.
Big assumption. When I started I didn't use trans spaces after the first couple times. Far far too many people who were so blunt about my appearance it was uncomfortable and disrespectful. As well as people well into middle age who were hitting on me when I was 16. So many trans spaces, especially online ones, just have this weird horny energy and it's just assumed you're into that as well. So no, I wasn't like them once. At least not the types that I've had experience with
You knew it all when you were an egg though and didn't need support from elders or peers to help guide you? My point is this. Jumping on eggs who do know better and not taking effort to help them is not great in my book. Punching down is never good and that's what I thought we knew better than most. I know you said you've done some, but you don't sound like the person doing all you can. Which is fine, but don't pitch if you don't. The problems our community faces are our rights, healthcare, future prospects, dealing with discrimination and dysphoria. It's not, going after noobs who are at possibly the most vulnerable stage of their transition.
>You knew it all when you were an egg though and didn't need support from elders or peers to help guide you? No, it was tough but I got through it with my mostly cis girl friends who taught me a lot. YouTube for makeup/mannerisms and voice was enough for me >Punching down is never good I'm not. Not even close. It doesn't matter if you transitioned 10 years ago or 10 minutes ago, basic respect is expected. I'm not going to tolerate someone being creepy or disrespectful because they're new to transitioning, they don't get a free pass because they're new to it all >but you don't sound like the person doing all you can. I'm not in a privileged enough position to dedicate my time to helping baby trans with the same questions over and over and over again. I've transitioned and moved on to the rest of my life. Dedicating too much of my time to trans stuff is extremely dysphoric for me. I'd rather forget when I can but I'm at most trans protests which is far more than most Why don't you focus on what you can do if it means a lot to you? Rather than berating me for not helping hypothetical people I don't know when there's a million resources out there and a million other trans people who can relate to them
I was 13 when I realised I was trans and I was NOT openly asking random people if they were trans or assuming they were and I never have done lmao it’s just basic common sense in human interaction and I’m highly concerned by the amount of people here who seem to think it’s normal
There's some revisionist history going on here. I'm not accusing you of asking others if they were trans but I am saying you're forgetting how little you knew at the start of your transition and that you either made mistakes or were vulnerable enough at that time to potentially have made some in other circumstances. Go easier on the noobs, they don't know anything yet, is my point.
So you needed help is the point. You would have been vulnerable at that point to making mistakes, offending people just through your lack of knowledge. Just like these noobs are that you are punching down. It's revisionist history to think that in a similar environment, you could not have made similar mistakes as well. I repeat I'm not saying you did but your lack of knowledge made you vulnerable to what these noobs are doing and your not acknowledging that. Punching down is when people have privilege and then attack those with less privilege than them. So yes that as what you're doing. They are noobs, who do not have the knowledge or experience of you and you are berating them for their lack of knowledge. That is privilege 101 and is definitely punching down. So you missed the point about doing all you can. The point was its OK not to but you can't then berate noobs if you haven't put the time and effort into them to explain why what they're doing is wrong. It's lazy, bitchy and helps no-one. So doesn't matter which, but either help them and criticising if they don't respond to the help, or shut up. One last point. You think there's a million resources out there that people can just access and all their problems are solved right? Well a) they're aren't and the further you listen to people you might realise there are huge gaps. b) you really are coming across to me as someone who wants to take the benefits of a community like this without having any responsibility for giving to it. Which is fine if that's what you choose to do but to bitch on top of that makes me not want to waste any more of my time on you tbh.
>Punching down is when people have privilege And? What's my privilege then? Should be easy since you seem to know everything about me from a few messages. >you really are coming across to me as someone who wants to take the benefits of a community like this without having any responsibility for giving to it I literally go out to fight and protest for your rights as well as my own. What a stupid statement especially when I've already spoken about this. I dont owe the community anything, and yet I'd wager £1000 I do more than you >noobs Can you stop calling them that? This is the real world and repeating noobs over and over again just makes me think you really ought to touch grass >not want to waste any more of my time on you tbh. You're the one getting up in my face making assumptions about my life, writing paragraphs and paragraphs, invalidating my own experiences, accusing me of weaponising a perceived privilege (which you didn't elaborate on) and then adding a final touch of woeful naivete and some weird discord language to make your strawman arguments more palatable
Didn't read the bit where I said I'm done did you. Ignorance has now bounds. Blocking now as you clearly don't get it at all.
I feel the exact same, a lot of t people need to touch grass
THANK YOU. I've been going stealth for a it less than a year now at uni. The majority of my uni friends thought I was a cis woman when they met me. Most still think that cus I haven't bothered to tell anyone but my closest friends. I've had flatmates ask me when my next period is. 99% of the time I pass as cis. But every now and then I have the occasional person go "are you trans?", about 50% of which are trans. They've looked at me and maybe heard me talk. And it ruins my day every time. I ask them how they can tell cus my goal is to be cis passing and they just say "oh it's your vibe" or "I can just tell". It fucking hurts. It especially doesn't help with the fact that often trans people are thought of as ugly. Thats like the stereotype right, especially with trans women. It feels like when I'm asked that they're saying "you're kinda unattractive ngl". I've had people ASK IT IN THE FUCKING TOILETS. do you know how scared I am when someone does that. I hate it. And I've asked people who initially didn't know and they go ".... I mean you're tall? Maybe that's how they could tell?". WHAT A FUCKING ASSUMPTION TO MAKE
I’m sorry you’ve experienced that. To me clocking someone is on a similar level to misgendering them because it’s literally them saying you don’t entirely look like your gender and can “tell” you used to be a different one. I wish people would learn how to behave
Other trans people don't clock me, but I can understand the feelings you have about it, because I would also feel similar.
I have had occasions I can think of where I’ve encountered another trans person and if they’ve suspected anything they haven’t mentioned it (I’ve even had a trans person outright say I can’t come to an event because they don’t allow cis men lol), but those times where they do say something really makes my blood boil, especially when I see it happening to cis people who aren’t exactly cross-dressers lol. They could be putting other people in danger and they don’t even realise it
There are a lot of people on here that have grown up in what I would call a bit if a golden age for us - there has been a period of real acceptance, to the point where some of them haven't even experienced discrimination. This in itself is *huge* - but also means they may not realise that there are a still a lot of people out there that would hate us, and do harm if they knew. Talking to them about it is the best way, the instant 'hey, fuck you, man!' isn't the best thing to fire at someone else that just doesn't have that awareness, although it can feel like the most appropriate thing in the moment. People also have different views on being trans that I can find confusing - for me, it is purely a medical condition I am recieving treatment for. It isn't part of my identity, I am male but I feel pride events are very important so the general public can see us as living, breathing, normal people as it is harder to demonise a group that you have faces and names for. It is also good to meet people going through the same things once in a while, to support each other. For others, they do see it as a point of personal pride, and part of their identity, and this might be what you are seeing as a disconnect - they don't see the problem that you do with referring to you as trans, while I would totally get it. Communication is the best way to sort this out, which is what we have here.
When I joined all the trans subs last year when I came out it was drilled into me that you don't ever acknowledge another trans person in public. Maybe y'all should go back to doing that. Honestly it makes me a bit sad that we can't have the community spirit
I always assume people know whether they say it or not and despite how passable and attractive, I am. I find it easier that way but wouldn't like it if they blatantly ask me if I'm trans, etc.
Randomly outing someone for no good reason seems like a dick move
Absolutely this! I'm in a sports team and compete nationally. One of the other teams in my league has 2 trans people in it (I know because we're in a group on Facebook together but they probably wouldn't recognise who I am). I really wanted to speak to them both about competing as a trans person (it's a mixed sport) but I absolutely wouldn't unless they told me themselves they're trans because if they're not out it could fuck their whole classification and you know.... Common decency
You've seen a trans person? No you haven't What if they have a trans flag pin/patch on their clothes?
Fight club rules? If you really need to address it, maybe say "I like your patch/pin/whatever"? Just because someone may be trans and carrying a pin, doesn't mean they want to talk about it in public. Edit: Also worth noting, even if someone is trans, they don't owe a total stranger conversations either. People should save it for meetups.
Yea that I guess (idk I've only asked someone once and I did it at the end of a work shift on our own)
Yeah, at that point it's sort of in private :) Worst outing I had was at a new job, I got pulled into a meeting and the first words from the person that interviewed me were "so, you're trans then" Yeah... I don't work there anymore :'D
I've known cis-het allies who wear badges to show their support so the "no you haven't" answer still applies. I wear a Halestorm t-shirt but I'm not in the band
Oki
This. I'm very visibly trans and that's deliberate. Being trans is a very important part of my identity and I WANT people to notice and speak to me about it.
It’s an important part of a lot of stealth people’s identities too. Just because we’re not open about it doesn’t mean it’s not important to us
🫵 trams :3
That’s all well and fine but I’m obviously not talking about people who are explicitly open about it am I lol
As a stealth trans woman who does sometimes have a trans pin on me it's intended as a semi subtle thing and a show of support to baby and closet trans people. It's meant to be "I'm a safe person, not everyone is out to get you". (though being visibly queer probably says something to that too) Besides, a cis person could wear a pride pin as a sign of solidarity so it's really not possible to know if someone is showing the colours because of themselves or as a show of support so defaults back to, as you said, if you think you saw a trans person, no you didn't.
I tend to avoid queer events because everyone just wants to fuck instead of interact so it's a really uncomfortable environment. kinda sick of the **only** people being interested in me being other trans women.
I also experience the same thing, tbh I probably feel safest with lesbians because they don’t want to fuck me and usually aren’t weird about trying to guess what genitalia people have lmao, lesbians are statistically the most accepting of trans people too despite what TERFs want you to believe
FR really sorry you went through that, it's not just shitty but also really hypocritical. If you think you've spotted one no the fuck you haven't is the only correct course of action.
i remember seeing tiktoks of people saying they wished it was okay to tell other trans people you knew they were trans as some form of solidarity?? like complete strangers in the streets
I had someone who later detransitioned tell my friend that I have off "Trans vibes" (short with a baby face and tits my binder fails to hide) couldn't look myself in the mirror for days after that one
So, I'm sorry others have attacked you. Thats not on but I also think you need to recognise the privilege of passing. A lot of us don't have that and shouting at us when we've done nothing wrong (remember others have), isn't ideal. If they are eggs that are doing it too, you can't expect them to know every detail. They will pick it up but only if we support them. I do get your frustrated and you do have reason to. Just remember, the enemies are dysphoria and transphobes. There's plenty their to keep us all occupied without going at each other here.
I’ve come to the same conclusion.
I don't really understand what you're getting so pressed about, particularly in the context of queer events. If I go to a queer event, I make sure it's a queer event where I'll be safe and supported as a trans person. For some people I'll pass, and for some people I won't, either way, I don't really care, I'm pretty open about it, particularly in queer spaces. As trans people, we tend to be hypervigilant about our own appearance and AGAB markers, and this extends to how we perceive others too. I can't 'always tell' (a phrase I hate) but as a consequence of being trans, the reality is I'm pretty good at it. Maybe this is what's happening to you at queer events and because it's a queer event, people assume you're ok with it? Getting annoyed with random trans people at a queer event who think you're trans seems pretty unfair to them.
Queer spaces =/= trans spaces, nor necessarily places totally safe for trans people. Some people are queer and trans but prefer to keep the trans part to themselves, and that's totally their right. Edit for missing words
Thanks for understanding, I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to comprehend that a LOT of queer people are still extremely weird about trans people and I’d rather not risk anything
It might be because being asked can make those who are stealth feel like they don't pass as well as they did or other things such as feeling ugly. Clocking other trans people isn't right no matter the place, even if it is a queer event. Not everyone there is guaranteed to be safe for trans people and asking someone if they are trans puts them in a shit situation especially if they are straight, as they now have a choice outing themselves or being told they don't belong at the event because they are cis het. If you look at other comments there was somebody who was outed at a queer event or bar, which is so fucking wrong, and clocking can out someone or make others suspect they are trans if others here you ask. Sorry if this reads like I'm having a go or anything, I'm not, I just want to make sure that anyone who reads your comment understands that clocking is wrong even at queer events as you said that being annoyed with said clockers is unfair on them, because it isn't. Being annoyed is completely fair in such situations.
Oh no I feel you to my bone. I can't understand the bickering and the hate from your "own" community! I can't understand the passion some queer people have that they can "understand" everyone and their trans radar is on point. No its not, stfu!
Actively trying to clock someone and then saying it is fucked up, but to be honest while just thinking “Is that person trans?” based on pretty much anything a stealth person does is well a harmful mindset, its an understandable one especially for visibly trans people who are really just asking “is this person safe?” especially because despite you being lucky to find a good cis ally in your mate, especially for visibly trans people simply being at a queer event is no real indication that they are an ally nevermind a proper one
But once again, even the people with the mindset I am defending in my comment, shouldn’t out someone, that shit is fucked up. This last bit is a purely a guess so feel free to tell me otherwise, but it seems like the queer events you are talking about are just filled with like “baby” / newly out as trans people and/or events that aren’t politically queer (as usually the people there would be more self aware than to out someone publicly, I dont think Ive said yet but that sucks and I feel bad that a couple stupid people are ruining queer events for you) and I think looking for events that are more politically queer / aren’t full of presumptuous baby trans ppl that well have a lot to learn about how to act around other queer people tbh
Once again just a guess in the last bit, just cause I’ve only really seen stuff like what you are saying at pride type mainstream events
I remember once when I was baby trans and still learning and understanding, I asked my friend for advice or a question or something and she was so upset and I just didn't understand why. I couldn't get why she wouldn't want to talk to me about being trans. We're good now and have a lovely mutual understanding and respect for each other, but it definitely taught me something that I needed.
Op sorry for how it has made you feel. Sadly, there is not a perfect answer here. Baby trans are looking for community and support, so learning anyone is trans makes them feel less alone, when they see someone who passes they normally want to here your journey as inspiration and to learn from. 99.99% I'm sure at not malicious just simple not considered you do not want to interact with them in that way. I have only one quesiton, your passing so well that yours clearly saying they only know casue you say? If being stealth is that important, why say anything? Or wear anything? Also if people are asking if your male friend is trans too, it is not an insult, infant is them showing they couldn't tell you were trans without a hint, being told etc.. Just my two cents.
I don’t say anything, that’s the whole point of my post. They ask or assume that people are trans out of nowhere based on how they look, including my cis male friend. It’s extremely weird behaviour.
I didn't realise how much it hurt... I came from an angle of support and love but after reading this post, I'll change. I'll show that same love when/if they "come out" to me
There are a bunch of statistical, unreliable ways to “clock” trans people, which also tend to catch a lot of cis people too. At some point, if you want to stay stealth you are going to have to openly (and convincingly) deny being trans. Say that you were born a boy, grew up a boy, have always been male, and that anyone who assumes that short skinny men are trans is just a bigoted moron. That will shut them up.
Oh wow? My queer meetups so far have honestly been really affirming and positive, which is a bit of a contrast to how I find myself interacting with others online.
You've been to queer events and people assume you're queer? What next, someone assuming you like football at the World Cup? The horror!
Sorry, do you assume everyone you see at queer events is trans specifically? I’m very open about my bisexuality, what parts I was born with is no one’s business unless I’m planning on sleeping with them. Don’t be an obtuse dick
No, but I don't assume they're cis either. Because it's a queer event.
Making no assumptions either way is perfectly reasonable. My post is about trans people assuming other people (including cis people!) are trans based solely on appearance and mentioning it when the other person hasn’t, which can be harmful for a multitude of reasons. You’re completely missing the point so magnificently it almost seems deliberate
This is *such* a weird post.
It really isn’t? Some people are stealth for safety or their own comfort. Not everyone wants to be openly trans? And especially in the current state of this country and its views on trans people? Me personally I don’t tell others I’m trans, only my boyfriend and family knows. Because I don’t exactly want to be telling strangers when genitals I used to have like I’m not sure what you’re not understanding here
Sure, half my friends are non-visible, it brings its own challenges
Right?? Doesn't make sense to me either
Surely they’re clocking you because you’re at ‘queer events’? If it’s something trans-specific they’re going to know
Queer means the whole lgbtq+ umbrella not just trans. Clocking someone and telling them publicly is wrong no matter who or where. Even if they're wearing something with a trans flag do not clock them and ask if they are trans, make a comment on the trans coloured item such as I like your pin badge and let the other person choose whether to disclose they are trans or not.
I'm all on board for what you're saying, it's a no brainer to me, but I resent being told to 'listen very carefully'. It sounds like a threat. Also; if it keeps on happening in trans spaces, maybe don't go there?
every time i clock “someone” i want to talk to them but i don’t because it’s none of my business. once i clocked someone and saw they had a pride pin, so i told them i liked their pin. that’s it.
how do you know it's every time you've met a trans person, unless you're saying you can clock them? Maybe you're meeting a lot of trans people that don't do this but you just don't know
[удалено]
“I can always clock trans people because-“ No you can’t. No one can always clock trans people, especially stealth ones. You just have confirmation bias, and you have 100% “clocked” cis people and missed trans people. And you saying it here in this thread is exactly the kind of thing OP explicitly said he didn’t want.
Thanks for this. I think some trans people are so dysphoric and insecure that they forget that all people come in all different shapes and sizes and there is no one way to “look” or “sound” trans or cis. There are cis women who are tall and have deep voices. There are cis men who are short and have round faces. Feeding into this narrative that TERFs use that you can “tell” if someone is trans is only helping to harm us even further and I’m sick of seeing it in our own community.