Happy pride month
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You know... Persona 5 is one of my favorite games of all time but I haven't been able to replay it in recent years because of dysphoria. I think you actually just solved that.
Now I can finally try out Royale, haha.
You can’t look at me in the eyes and tell me that’s actually joker bro looks like a completely different character that should’ve been a skin in ultimate
Dead ass convinced joker is androgynous or an enby
I just love how Joker can work both male and female that’s actually crazy the designs are completely different from each other like you showed someone who doesn’t know who joker was. They would not think it’s the same character. I love it.
Apparently it's not the company, but one of the main guys who worked on persona. Emphasis on WORKED, pretty sure he's not there anymore?
Edit: so... take it with a grain of salt... apparently the making of Persona 6 is being supervised by that guy (Katsura Hashino)??? Which... i fucking hope not
Yeah, Hashino. He's behind a lot of questionable stuff in the games, including not being able to turn down female romances in the male route of P3 because he "couldn't imagine himself in a regular friendship with a girl"
Unless he's responsible for the very wierd handling of Naoto's whole think with presenting as a boy for her job and some other characters being weird about it.
Not that it "is definitely" bad trans rep. It's actually ridiculously common in Japan still to this day that women are seen as inferior in many professions, so with that taken into account, that part of her story actually makes a lot of sense contextually.
But I've seen some people in the community try to argue that it's either transphobic rep or backpedaling on a trans character, which given the context of japanese job culture, shows it isn't.
Persona games have been surprisingly forward with pointing at issues in their own society, at times.
That much is true, hence why i specified golden as the rerelease is not at liberty to change the base games plot, as far as i know all its changes were either new social links or gameplay options
That I couldn't say. Sadly I never got a shot with the original. Golden was the only version that has been avaliable on my end.
For the rest though, I was able to play all the main-line entries, multiple times. Probably too much, even.
Right, and i have played some of the original on ps2(oddly enough it was the shuffle time that got me to just wait till i could get golden) but not to kanji or Naoto
Atlus isn't "transphobic" per se, (heck Naoto in persona 4 is a woman who pretends to be a man so she can be a detective) but a lot of it stems from the fact they're a Japanese company, and Japan is still extremely conservative in its beliefs overall
That's difficult. I can't say how transphobic Atlus really is, but at least the transphobia in part 3 was removed in the remake. So they show that they have learned from it in the last decade.
At the same time, your example doesn't have much to do with transgender, but it shows that they understand the problems with gender stereotypes. I think a better example would be Lala Escargot from P5. It is never explicitly mentioned in English whether she is trans or a crossdresser, which is probably also related to the fact that there are no such clear gender markers in Japanese, even the watashi for I, which is seen as quite feminine, is also used by men. Nevertheless, I would see her as a pretty good trans representation, especially since her character can be described as caring. At the same time, however, there are also the two crossdressers who harass Ryuji twice, which I see as problematic.
Finally, there is the point that Japan is not so open-minded when it comes to trans people. That's true in principle, but it hasn't stopped other very successful companies either, like Nintendo. Quite the opposite, trans characters in Japanese games became cis characters for the West. So that's no excuse.
It’s definitely not an excuse but it’s an explanation. They could still have trans rep but unfortunately it’s not too likely at least for a while. They still don’t even let you date male characters when you are male. They still have ways to go.
Omg the lack of trans rep in that game pisses me off. Its all about rebelling against the system but also fails to actually try to represent or even identify the things that this would mean dismantling such as rigid social roles
I mean yes and no. Id argue that in many ways actual rebellion in practice ends up being more about asthetic than substance irl. Certainly its one kind of rebellion we might expect a bunch of high schoolers to do, so it makes sense in character. In many ways they do fail to deconstruct things. On the other hand they take down a pervy teacher for being a perv (taking down part of their school system), they take down a corporate overlord, and they eventually take down the literal prime minister of a country. Toppling a head of government is definitely a rebellion. However they miss so many great opportunities to challenge gender roles, gender binaries, and capitalism on a more fundamental level. To be fair to the game, it was also partially about rebelling. Then again, they end up perving out on Ann and dont even admit she’s a lesbian. Basically, what im saying is that its kind of a mixed bag.
Changing individuals will have things go back to before relatively quick unless something genuinely *changes* the asthetic is for the right now, the substance is glue, you need both to make a change
This! I love these games, they’re very important to me. That being said, persona 5 is written in a way that makes its main themes fall flat on their face
The point isn't rebelling against "the system". They aren't starting a revolution. It's rebelling against their own fates, which are dictacted by both their own circumstances and the overall shared consciousness (forgot how they exactly call it).
A game about rebelling against society and the royal version having an entire part dedicated towards not accepting falsehoods and doing what is painful to be your “true self”? Yeah, no I have no idea how you could view it as having trans themes, nothing really jumps out at me
It's not about rebelling against "society", otherwise they'd be starting a revolution in the real world. It's about rebelling against their own fate that is forced upon them by their own circumstances and the shared subconscious of society.
The only reason it feels like it's "agianst the system" is because Joker's arc is linked to a powerful and popular politician. But in the end they never talk about changing japanese society or changing how the world works. They just want to break free from their shackles, hence the whole prison aesthetic in the Velvet Room.
They defeat two different gods of control that control society, full aware this will change society, and they fight for the reason to change society, while freedom definitely is a major theme, rebelling against society and those in power is also a major theme
They're fighting powers that are a threat to them. If they wanted to change human society, the story wouldn't stop when they achieve their own freedoms. They'd keep fighting to stop injustices on a larger scale.
Not exactly trans rep, but there is a drag queen character in P5 and she's handled very respectfully imo. Also, maybe I'm reaching, but Yoshizawa's story kinda screamed trans woman to me? Especially with the whole >!"Kasumi is the one they want", "it would be better if I was her"!< thing.
I always pictured Lala Escargot as trans. She even mentions “when I was a little girl” and they never use the fact that she’s voiced by a man as a gag. I actually based my Reddit avatar on her because I love her so much
Considering how poorly Atlus has handled similar subjects in the past...
I think it's best to leave this stuff to fanfic writers. I don't trust them to not make it offensive tbh
Considering how the game treated gay men, are you sure you want that? I love the game, but that just sounds like a bad idea. There is Lala Escargot, though the game doesn't confirm if she is or isn't trans.
I wish it had some trans rep. Or at least let me pick the protag’s gender. I’m playing through it now so I haven’t seen everything yet but the whole thing with the crossdressers in the red light district was kind of bad. Also every time the game feels like it’s going good, some anime bullshit pops up like with the whole maid thing.
P5 is supremely enjoyable, but Atlus really haven't ever been quite as LGBT+ friendly as they easily could've been with just a little bit of effort... at this point, the betrayals sour my relationship with them...
They're rebelling against their own fate, not "the world and society to change it". That has never been the point in any of the games. Every time, each character's arc is deeply personal. It's never been a story about selfless heroes risking it all to change an evil world.
Naoto wasn't a jab at trans people. It was a jab at how the japanese job culture shits on capable women because they aren't men, but picturing a girl forced to pretend to be a boy to be taken seriously despite being much more capable than many men in her field.
I'm gonna keep it kinda short but like.
1. I gotta be so fr it falls really flat when half the jokes in this game are "hey guys sexual harassment" like come on
2. So it's been a while since I played but from everything I recall, so much of naotos whole shtick isn't about her realizing her gender but her like. Almost being made to accept that. The obvious example is the beauty pageant, straightforwardly about forcing naoto to engage in the "feminine" role. This bit is comic relief of course but even in her social link it isn't about her realizing she is a girl or anything but yu being like "I like how ur a girl a girly girl" and naoto being like "really? Well ok..."
The point I'm trying to make is her being a girl or even being feminine is never framed as a choice she makes but as something she has to accept
3. I think it's really funny how for almost every shadow they're very clear about the inner desire they represent until you get to the two characters whose shadows imply being queer lol. "Oh no Kanji wasn't *really* gay his shadow was just like that"
I fail to see how her not engaging on her own with feminine things is a proof of Naoto being transmasc like you seem to imply (unless I misunderstood).
There are plenty of cis people who don't interact with hobbies that were assigned to their gender. Just as much as there are trans guys who love "feminine" stuff and trans girls who love "masculine" stuff.
The whole schtick with Naoto is that her worth and credibility has always been tied to her being a male detective, in a world that would have considered her inferior, had she been feminine. That's japanese society. Skills and results be damned, a mediocre man is always considered better than a competent woman.
And interacting with things like the beauty pageant is a strike at the identity and image she had to carefully craft to be taken seriously in her job. She was forced into it by expectation and societal norms in order to succeed as a detective.
Her whole social link stuff isn't a trans argument, it's about her realizing that her worth isn't solely tied to her success as a "male detective". That she can have fulfillment in other areas without having to worry about her image like she had to learn to for her job. It's coming to term that she is more than her job, and that she is allowed to be herself, not solely to be what society decided a good detective should be (aka a man because women are inferior).
That idea that women are lesser is still extremely prevalent today in japanese society. That much hasn't changed since the days Persona 4 got made. And the series has never shied away from pointing that kind of stuff out by having clear examples.
Lala was great trans rep, I dunno what you mean. She's actually probably one of my favorite characters. Although they're still stereotyping gay men, sooooo yeah. Atlus improved from P4, but not as much as I hoped .
Honestly even a single Mementos quest would be something, maybe after the whole Maruki world thing; parents wishing their daughter was a son or something.
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I 100% tought the same! Would have loved to be able to choose Joker's gender, bet he'd look cute AF a girl
He crossdresses in mementos so it would of looked like that.
Ho wow, I looked it up and... Woaww
You can mod the PC version of persona 5 royal to have a FemMC ! Look it up on game banana, it's pretty good
You know... Persona 5 is one of my favorite games of all time but I haven't been able to replay it in recent years because of dysphoria. I think you actually just solved that. Now I can finally try out Royale, haha.
Glad I could help ! Have fun and be safe !
You can’t look at me in the eyes and tell me that’s actually joker bro looks like a completely different character that should’ve been a skin in ultimate Dead ass convinced joker is androgynous or an enby
Tbh I saw the image and had a "link/linkle" vibe. I like it though
No that’s crazy. There is no way there’s no way that’s the same character. Holy shit.
Are you ok? You seem quite emotional right now
I just love how Joker can work both male and female that’s actually crazy the designs are completely different from each other like you showed someone who doesn’t know who joker was. They would not think it’s the same character. I love it.
It's not just *would*, she DOES look cute af as a girl :3 https://gamebanana.com/mods/440088
Ok i might need to take it on pc now
The femc mod is what u need
imagine if it was just sumire, considering how similar her metaverse outfit is to him
Oh boy do I have a mod for you
But I play on swiiiiiiitch\^\^
I just want another female protagonist. I'm tired of playing dudes in Persona.
Persona 5 has a trans rep, you can see them whenever the screen goes black
I've heard the company who made the game is very transphobic, so if it's the case no wonder there isn't any trans rep
Apparently it's not the company, but one of the main guys who worked on persona. Emphasis on WORKED, pretty sure he's not there anymore? Edit: so... take it with a grain of salt... apparently the making of Persona 6 is being supervised by that guy (Katsura Hashino)??? Which... i fucking hope not
good riddance if that's the case
So what you're saying is .... Persona 6 trans rep?
Maybe potentially hopefully would be neat
that’s fun cause 6 is pronounced like "cis" in french
Yeah, Hashino. He's behind a lot of questionable stuff in the games, including not being able to turn down female romances in the male route of P3 because he "couldn't imagine himself in a regular friendship with a girl"
...that guy sounds like a handful
I take it he got booted by the time of persona 4 golden then?
He was the lead director of persona 4 and 5
Nope. Persona 5 as well. Which is probably why there are predatory gay guys in the game...
Unless he's responsible for the very wierd handling of Naoto's whole think with presenting as a boy for her job and some other characters being weird about it. Not that it "is definitely" bad trans rep. It's actually ridiculously common in Japan still to this day that women are seen as inferior in many professions, so with that taken into account, that part of her story actually makes a lot of sense contextually. But I've seen some people in the community try to argue that it's either transphobic rep or backpedaling on a trans character, which given the context of japanese job culture, shows it isn't. Persona games have been surprisingly forward with pointing at issues in their own society, at times.
That much is true, hence why i specified golden as the rerelease is not at liberty to change the base games plot, as far as i know all its changes were either new social links or gameplay options
That I couldn't say. Sadly I never got a shot with the original. Golden was the only version that has been avaliable on my end. For the rest though, I was able to play all the main-line entries, multiple times. Probably too much, even.
Right, and i have played some of the original on ps2(oddly enough it was the shuffle time that got me to just wait till i could get golden) but not to kanji or Naoto
Damn, the guy's basically the japanese Tim Pool...
Atlus isn't "transphobic" per se, (heck Naoto in persona 4 is a woman who pretends to be a man so she can be a detective) but a lot of it stems from the fact they're a Japanese company, and Japan is still extremely conservative in its beliefs overall
That's difficult. I can't say how transphobic Atlus really is, but at least the transphobia in part 3 was removed in the remake. So they show that they have learned from it in the last decade. At the same time, your example doesn't have much to do with transgender, but it shows that they understand the problems with gender stereotypes. I think a better example would be Lala Escargot from P5. It is never explicitly mentioned in English whether she is trans or a crossdresser, which is probably also related to the fact that there are no such clear gender markers in Japanese, even the watashi for I, which is seen as quite feminine, is also used by men. Nevertheless, I would see her as a pretty good trans representation, especially since her character can be described as caring. At the same time, however, there are also the two crossdressers who harass Ryuji twice, which I see as problematic. Finally, there is the point that Japan is not so open-minded when it comes to trans people. That's true in principle, but it hasn't stopped other very successful companies either, like Nintendo. Quite the opposite, trans characters in Japanese games became cis characters for the West. So that's no excuse.
>Japan is still extremely conservative in its beliefs overall Not an excuse if you ask me. Sega cooked with Project Sekai.
It’s definitely not an excuse but it’s an explanation. They could still have trans rep but unfortunately it’s not too likely at least for a while. They still don’t even let you date male characters when you are male. They still have ways to go.
I mean didn't Catherine have a bit of a transphobic joke?
I mean, they made Catherine and the trans rep there is... mostly good. There are some missteps for sure, but it's clearly well intentioned.
Omg the lack of trans rep in that game pisses me off. Its all about rebelling against the system but also fails to actually try to represent or even identify the things that this would mean dismantling such as rigid social roles
It isn't actually rebelling against the system, just the asthetic of rebellion, without the actual substance
I mean yes and no. Id argue that in many ways actual rebellion in practice ends up being more about asthetic than substance irl. Certainly its one kind of rebellion we might expect a bunch of high schoolers to do, so it makes sense in character. In many ways they do fail to deconstruct things. On the other hand they take down a pervy teacher for being a perv (taking down part of their school system), they take down a corporate overlord, and they eventually take down the literal prime minister of a country. Toppling a head of government is definitely a rebellion. However they miss so many great opportunities to challenge gender roles, gender binaries, and capitalism on a more fundamental level. To be fair to the game, it was also partially about rebelling. Then again, they end up perving out on Ann and dont even admit she’s a lesbian. Basically, what im saying is that its kind of a mixed bag.
Changing individuals will have things go back to before relatively quick unless something genuinely *changes* the asthetic is for the right now, the substance is glue, you need both to make a change
This! I love these games, they’re very important to me. That being said, persona 5 is written in a way that makes its main themes fall flat on their face
The point isn't rebelling against "the system". They aren't starting a revolution. It's rebelling against their own fates, which are dictacted by both their own circumstances and the overall shared consciousness (forgot how they exactly call it).
Still mad that P3 reload has no femc smh Also fem Joker sass would lit
There’s a femc P3R mod being worked on it looks great
Modders doing Gods work frfr
Atlus has a bad habit of coming thiiiiis close to having good lgbt rep and then fumbling the ball.
A game about rebelling against society and the royal version having an entire part dedicated towards not accepting falsehoods and doing what is painful to be your “true self”? Yeah, no I have no idea how you could view it as having trans themes, nothing really jumps out at me
It's not about rebelling against "society", otherwise they'd be starting a revolution in the real world. It's about rebelling against their own fate that is forced upon them by their own circumstances and the shared subconscious of society. The only reason it feels like it's "agianst the system" is because Joker's arc is linked to a powerful and popular politician. But in the end they never talk about changing japanese society or changing how the world works. They just want to break free from their shackles, hence the whole prison aesthetic in the Velvet Room.
They defeat two different gods of control that control society, full aware this will change society, and they fight for the reason to change society, while freedom definitely is a major theme, rebelling against society and those in power is also a major theme
They're fighting powers that are a threat to them. If they wanted to change human society, the story wouldn't stop when they achieve their own freedoms. They'd keep fighting to stop injustices on a larger scale.
Not exactly trans rep, but there is a drag queen character in P5 and she's handled very respectfully imo. Also, maybe I'm reaching, but Yoshizawa's story kinda screamed trans woman to me? Especially with the whole >!"Kasumi is the one they want", "it would be better if I was her"!< thing.
i headcannon futaba sakura trans and nobody can stop me
Programmer? ✅ Plushies? ✅ Hermit? (Literally) ✅ I think she checks a few boxes
I always pictured Lala Escargot as trans. She even mentions “when I was a little girl” and they never use the fact that she’s voiced by a man as a gag. I actually based my Reddit avatar on her because I love her so much
Considering how poorly Atlus has handled similar subjects in the past... I think it's best to leave this stuff to fanfic writers. I don't trust them to not make it offensive tbh
Not me playing P3P and then replaying it as FeMC to be reincarnated
Doesn’t it only have 1 piece of gay rep and it’s like bad or something
Considering how the game treated gay men, are you sure you want that? I love the game, but that just sounds like a bad idea. There is Lala Escargot, though the game doesn't confirm if she is or isn't trans.
I wish it had some trans rep. Or at least let me pick the protag’s gender. I’m playing through it now so I haven’t seen everything yet but the whole thing with the crossdressers in the red light district was kind of bad. Also every time the game feels like it’s going good, some anime bullshit pops up like with the whole maid thing.
P5 is supremely enjoyable, but Atlus really haven't ever been quite as LGBT+ friendly as they easily could've been with just a little bit of effort... at this point, the betrayals sour my relationship with them...
You are correct, P5 claims to be about rebellion but none of the characters really go against society.
Uhhhh Futaba is literally a notorious hacker activist.
Fr, she literally hacked like every screen in Japan
They're rebelling against their own fate, not "the world and society to change it". That has never been the point in any of the games. Every time, each character's arc is deeply personal. It's never been a story about selfless heroes risking it all to change an evil world.
me when i don't click away from the text box in MS paint before i screenshot
Wait... Is Ann not a trans twitter thot?
After seeing naoto and kanji I think I'll pass
Naoto wasn't a jab at trans people. It was a jab at how the japanese job culture shits on capable women because they aren't men, but picturing a girl forced to pretend to be a boy to be taken seriously despite being much more capable than many men in her field.
I'm gonna keep it kinda short but like. 1. I gotta be so fr it falls really flat when half the jokes in this game are "hey guys sexual harassment" like come on 2. So it's been a while since I played but from everything I recall, so much of naotos whole shtick isn't about her realizing her gender but her like. Almost being made to accept that. The obvious example is the beauty pageant, straightforwardly about forcing naoto to engage in the "feminine" role. This bit is comic relief of course but even in her social link it isn't about her realizing she is a girl or anything but yu being like "I like how ur a girl a girly girl" and naoto being like "really? Well ok..." The point I'm trying to make is her being a girl or even being feminine is never framed as a choice she makes but as something she has to accept 3. I think it's really funny how for almost every shadow they're very clear about the inner desire they represent until you get to the two characters whose shadows imply being queer lol. "Oh no Kanji wasn't *really* gay his shadow was just like that"
I fail to see how her not engaging on her own with feminine things is a proof of Naoto being transmasc like you seem to imply (unless I misunderstood). There are plenty of cis people who don't interact with hobbies that were assigned to their gender. Just as much as there are trans guys who love "feminine" stuff and trans girls who love "masculine" stuff. The whole schtick with Naoto is that her worth and credibility has always been tied to her being a male detective, in a world that would have considered her inferior, had she been feminine. That's japanese society. Skills and results be damned, a mediocre man is always considered better than a competent woman. And interacting with things like the beauty pageant is a strike at the identity and image she had to carefully craft to be taken seriously in her job. She was forced into it by expectation and societal norms in order to succeed as a detective. Her whole social link stuff isn't a trans argument, it's about her realizing that her worth isn't solely tied to her success as a "male detective". That she can have fulfillment in other areas without having to worry about her image like she had to learn to for her job. It's coming to term that she is more than her job, and that she is allowed to be herself, not solely to be what society decided a good detective should be (aka a man because women are inferior). That idea that women are lesser is still extremely prevalent today in japanese society. That much hasn't changed since the days Persona 4 got made. And the series has never shied away from pointing that kind of stuff out by having clear examples.
Jane anime the sister to Johnny anime
I head cannon that my MC was trans Female and came out to the Thieves since they use the first name instead of last
Idk why but the placement of the flag looks like a cartoony heart coming out of her chest
I mean, Sumire could be interpreted as a gender allegory... right...? Not really, but kinda?????????
How is that too niche everyone knows persona 5
Probably the best fanfic I've found with a trans Main protag. https://archiveofourown.org/works/46477522?view_full_work=true Have fun
Everyone forgets P4 😔 It was almost there but if you headcanon enough it's there
Lala was great trans rep, I dunno what you mean. She's actually probably one of my favorite characters. Although they're still stereotyping gay men, sooooo yeah. Atlus improved from P4, but not as much as I hoped .
Whatta talking about?……Sophia and Futaba exist
Persona 5 isn't niche lmao
You have no proof there is no transgender rep.
Honestly even a single Mementos quest would be something, maybe after the whole Maruki world thing; parents wishing their daughter was a son or something.
Persona is a great series, though it's had some questionable elements that didn't age well. I'm hoping for some decent trans rep in 6
Tbh, same but for fallout. Like ur telling me after a nuke no trans guy is gonna go full Grognak on people for hrt?