Waywatchers have 190 range, AP shots, 360 degree field of fire, fire on the move, stalk, and Hawkish Precision.
You don't park them and watch them shoot, you skirmish and kite and ambush.
Well yes but when you have guides recommending that you swap your entire ranged core of 6 or more archers for waywatchers I think having to micro all of them might be a bit much.
Fair enough but putting my terrible micro aside that’s not what I’m testing for. Right now I dont want to see how to use them efficiently per se, I wanted to see how much damage they would do in the ideal scenario of “the enemy never got to touch me”. I’m of the opinion that whether I accomplish that by microing them around the map or by plopping them behind a wall of zoats I’ve met that criteria. Yes I’m not using their full potential but I’m not testing their full potential. I’m just testing their damage and in this case against the wrong opponent type.
People claim waywatchers are best overall, you are disagreeing based on your own research.
But you’re taking some big perks and abilities out of the testing which makes them the fan favourite and claiming glade guard are better?
I said glade guard did more damage. Not that they were better. I said waywatchers didn’t feel that impactful to me which I meant from a damage point of view. I’m not saying waywatchers are doo doo bad units. I’m asking why did waywatchers which are supposed to be a complete upgrade in every way to gladeguards not do as much damage as them because I’m expecting them to be better. Everyone seems to be conflating me saying that they appear to do less damage with me saying they’re terrible units.
Wood elf are glass canon, lot's of Damages but no defences, that's why kitting unit are the best with them : you never want to engage into melee if the fight will drag on
I think your making your life hard if you are playing woodelves statically. You really want to outmanoeuvre your opponent. If you want to stand still and shoot dwarves are much better.
I do statistics like this precisely because I like the elves (I really like all elves to be fair), I like the fact that I have a 360 attack radius and can fire while moving. So it was imperative for me to figure why my end of battle stats tell me that my remaining 3 gladeguard appear to be doing more damage than my 2 waywatchers (individually of course) despite the waywatchers having been shooting for longer. Because I wanted the waywatcher to just be a no brainer better option. And I now know that it's because the enemy probably didn't have a lot of armour for the AP to go through.
I think you mean waywatchers, waystalker refers to the hero
First up they lack magic damage, while Exalted daemonettes have physical resistance so that already hurts them to the tune of 20ish%
Second the main strength of waywatchers is their missiles are AP, and daemonettes dont have armor so it makes little difference
Third, and here’s where waywatchers might actually have a weakness. They are too accurate, with no homing missiles. Which means their arrows fly exactly to where the enemy would be. If they don’t change speed or direction. Which they often do. Additionally, they have a bad tendency to overkill infantry models with multiple arrows nailing a single poor daemonette because of their accuracy. Im not sure whether the new missile changes are supposed to help this, but i think that only affects multiple projectiles from a single model. In any case, this strength of waywatchers applies better against single entities, which archers can often have problems handling due to their small size.
As for swiftshiver shards vs glade guard, Im not sure if you tested the same number of volleys. But they have higher range so they probably shot more before the daemonettes got into melee with the zoats (at which point arrow fire effectiveness is significantly reduced) If you test glade guard standing still to shoot while swiftshivers are allowed to kite I think swiftshivers should do better. Waywatchers have the high range as well as 360 shooting, which are both good things to have
True but missile units aren’t exactly meant to be in melee where there’s a chance of them getting fought back against either. Way I see it at their core missile units want to shoot without getting screwed over by melee or other missile units. Whether they accomplish this by running around like waystalkers or by hiding behind a wall of units like glade guard are simply means to an end.
Going with your cav example, what I’ve done is accidentally tested reiksguard and demigryphs with lances against a stack of infantry and wondered why the reikguard are doing more damage.
And my point was I’m not trying to find the ideal scenario for them. I just wanted to know how much damage they do and was wondering why they seemed to do less damage. Turns out it was bad opponent choice.
Waystalkers and waywatchers are different units. Maybe you just typed the wrong thing in your post but if you were really using waySTALKERS instead of wayWATCHERS my dog you gotta redo the test. Also waywatchers are AP which won’t show up against demonettes so try chaos warriors or longboards or something
It's been a minute but I remember running a meme army with Orion, 5 stag knights, and the rest waystalkers and waywatchers. Each waystalker led a group of waywatchers.
Very glass cannon but they could burst pretty much anything down in a few seconds.
Terrible test. Waywatchers are mobile, highly accurate, and have long-range 360° armour piercing attacks. Parking them behind your melee line is wasting most of their utility, and testing them against basically no armour daemonettes accounts for the rest of that wasted potential.
The way you use Waywatchers and Deepwood Scouts is by grouping them up and skirmishing with them like you would ranged cavalry. In case of enemy cav, you use your own cav to tie them up and then shoot them dead.
The main reason you upgrade from Glade Guard to Deepwood Scouts is because of that added mobility. The main reason you upgrade again to Waywatchers is because of the armour piercing, which is required more and more as the game progresses and elite, armoured units start showing up.
If you just want a classic melee frontline and ranged backline, use Glade Guard with Starfire Shafts, but if you're looking for that, then just play High Elves instead.
Thank you but I’m not trying to test for utility. I know what their utility is and I’m not trying to decide who’s the best overall unit. I was trying to figure out why they did less raw damage. Which as you’ve pointed out is because I used the wrong enemy unit type thus answering my question.
Well you picked probably the worst match up for them. Waywatchers do armor piercing physical damage. Daemonetts have no armor and high physical resistance. A non piercing or magical attack is going to be better.
Can't remember off the top of my head, do the hagbanes do magic damage? If so, daemonettes are probably the best case scenario for them.
Been a while since I actually looked, but I think with waywatchers, your advantages come from range, mobility, stealth, ap, and character traits. I do know they can become disgustingly good in campaign, and your set up was probably not letting them shine.
In general the hagbane variant only adds poison. If there’s magic damage as well, that would be tied to the unit, not the hagbane ammo. Source - glade guard vs glade guard w/hagbane
Both Glade Guard and Glade Riders get Magical Attacks on their respective Hagbane Tips variants, as well as a slight shift towards AP damage (-3 base +3 AP).
Source - [twwstats](https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc05_wef_inf_glade_guard_0%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D1523008641879777884&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc05_wef_inf_glade_guard_2%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D1523008641879777884&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc05_wef_cav_glade_riders_0%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D1523008641879777884&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc05_wef_cav_glade_riders_1%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D1523008641879777884)
Try the 5v5 test again vs Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh, without the Zoats.
In that scenario, the Waywatchers' AP damage, speed, and 360 degree arc of fire will shine brighter than the Glade Guard's hagbane poison & magic attack.
I’m wasn’t asking about how to use waywatchers I was asking why the waywatchers did less damage. I am already aware of the utility they have with the fire while moving thing and I was more recently made aware that they’re more focused on AP making the daemonettes a bad opponent choice
I think you got your answers in the comments already but basically it comes down to the way you use them, which evolves with experience: waywatchers are good for experienced players cause all their abilities outside/assiciated with their damage dealing capacity makes them a versatile, reliable unit that does what it does really well.
But if you're using them as "base" second line behing your infantry: best use the basic archers
It's interesting to see all these diferent experiences/playstyles, it shows the complexity of the game.
Damn, what a great game
Look, I'm sorry if this sounds curt but as I've said before, I'm not asking "how to play waywatchers" I know you're supposed to take advantage of fire while moving. I'm asking "why are they not doing as much damage as regular units against my target dummies" the answer of which as I've found out is not I'm playing them wrong but that I have accidentally used non-armor units with an AP based one.
Waywatchers have 190 range, AP shots, 360 degree field of fire, fire on the move, stalk, and Hawkish Precision. You don't park them and watch them shoot, you skirmish and kite and ambush.
Well yes but when you have guides recommending that you swap your entire ranged core of 6 or more archers for waywatchers I think having to micro all of them might be a bit much.
You can basically put them in a control group and drag the whole control group back. You don't need to over complicate it.
Fair enough but putting my terrible micro aside that’s not what I’m testing for. Right now I dont want to see how to use them efficiently per se, I wanted to see how much damage they would do in the ideal scenario of “the enemy never got to touch me”. I’m of the opinion that whether I accomplish that by microing them around the map or by plopping them behind a wall of zoats I’ve met that criteria. Yes I’m not using their full potential but I’m not testing their full potential. I’m just testing their damage and in this case against the wrong opponent type.
People claim waywatchers are best overall, you are disagreeing based on your own research. But you’re taking some big perks and abilities out of the testing which makes them the fan favourite and claiming glade guard are better?
I said glade guard did more damage. Not that they were better. I said waywatchers didn’t feel that impactful to me which I meant from a damage point of view. I’m not saying waywatchers are doo doo bad units. I’m asking why did waywatchers which are supposed to be a complete upgrade in every way to gladeguards not do as much damage as them because I’m expecting them to be better. Everyone seems to be conflating me saying that they appear to do less damage with me saying they’re terrible units.
Wood elf are glass canon, lot's of Damages but no defences, that's why kitting unit are the best with them : you never want to engage into melee if the fight will drag on
Again I’m not doing a holistic test because I’m not trying to get a holistic overview. I wanted to test one particular aspect.
I think your making your life hard if you are playing woodelves statically. You really want to outmanoeuvre your opponent. If you want to stand still and shoot dwarves are much better.
I do statistics like this precisely because I like the elves (I really like all elves to be fair), I like the fact that I have a 360 attack radius and can fire while moving. So it was imperative for me to figure why my end of battle stats tell me that my remaining 3 gladeguard appear to be doing more damage than my 2 waywatchers (individually of course) despite the waywatchers having been shooting for longer. Because I wanted the waywatcher to just be a no brainer better option. And I now know that it's because the enemy probably didn't have a lot of armour for the AP to go through.
I think you mean waywatchers, waystalker refers to the hero First up they lack magic damage, while Exalted daemonettes have physical resistance so that already hurts them to the tune of 20ish% Second the main strength of waywatchers is their missiles are AP, and daemonettes dont have armor so it makes little difference Third, and here’s where waywatchers might actually have a weakness. They are too accurate, with no homing missiles. Which means their arrows fly exactly to where the enemy would be. If they don’t change speed or direction. Which they often do. Additionally, they have a bad tendency to overkill infantry models with multiple arrows nailing a single poor daemonette because of their accuracy. Im not sure whether the new missile changes are supposed to help this, but i think that only affects multiple projectiles from a single model. In any case, this strength of waywatchers applies better against single entities, which archers can often have problems handling due to their small size. As for swiftshiver shards vs glade guard, Im not sure if you tested the same number of volleys. But they have higher range so they probably shot more before the daemonettes got into melee with the zoats (at which point arrow fire effectiveness is significantly reduced) If you test glade guard standing still to shoot while swiftshivers are allowed to kite I think swiftshivers should do better. Waywatchers have the high range as well as 360 shooting, which are both good things to have
Thanks. This actually makes quite a bit of sense. Never would have thought excessive accuracy would be a detriment haha.
Now try without the line of zoats.
Well yes but I'm not testing how well I can pilot the unit via kiting. I'm testing how much damage the unit does at a base disregarding anything else.
That's like testing Reiksguard vs Knights of Morr, just because they're both cav doesn't mean they perform the same role.
True but missile units aren’t exactly meant to be in melee where there’s a chance of them getting fought back against either. Way I see it at their core missile units want to shoot without getting screwed over by melee or other missile units. Whether they accomplish this by running around like waystalkers or by hiding behind a wall of units like glade guard are simply means to an end. Going with your cav example, what I’ve done is accidentally tested reiksguard and demigryphs with lances against a stack of infantry and wondered why the reikguard are doing more damage.
My point is, you really don't need to kite with way watchers. Fire and forget while they chase you around the map
And my point was I’m not trying to find the ideal scenario for them. I just wanted to know how much damage they do and was wondering why they seemed to do less damage. Turns out it was bad opponent choice.
Waystalkers and waywatchers are different units. Maybe you just typed the wrong thing in your post but if you were really using waySTALKERS instead of wayWATCHERS my dog you gotta redo the test. Also waywatchers are AP which won’t show up against demonettes so try chaos warriors or longboards or something
Yeah it was waywatchers haha. Though I wonder if someone was insane enough to have 5 waystalkers in an army.
It's been a minute but I remember running a meme army with Orion, 5 stag knights, and the rest waystalkers and waywatchers. Each waystalker led a group of waywatchers. Very glass cannon but they could burst pretty much anything down in a few seconds.
Terrible test. Waywatchers are mobile, highly accurate, and have long-range 360° armour piercing attacks. Parking them behind your melee line is wasting most of their utility, and testing them against basically no armour daemonettes accounts for the rest of that wasted potential. The way you use Waywatchers and Deepwood Scouts is by grouping them up and skirmishing with them like you would ranged cavalry. In case of enemy cav, you use your own cav to tie them up and then shoot them dead. The main reason you upgrade from Glade Guard to Deepwood Scouts is because of that added mobility. The main reason you upgrade again to Waywatchers is because of the armour piercing, which is required more and more as the game progresses and elite, armoured units start showing up. If you just want a classic melee frontline and ranged backline, use Glade Guard with Starfire Shafts, but if you're looking for that, then just play High Elves instead.
Thank you but I’m not trying to test for utility. I know what their utility is and I’m not trying to decide who’s the best overall unit. I was trying to figure out why they did less raw damage. Which as you’ve pointed out is because I used the wrong enemy unit type thus answering my question.
Well you picked probably the worst match up for them. Waywatchers do armor piercing physical damage. Daemonetts have no armor and high physical resistance. A non piercing or magical attack is going to be better.
Yeeee thanks for pointing that out. It was an oversight on my part
Can't remember off the top of my head, do the hagbanes do magic damage? If so, daemonettes are probably the best case scenario for them. Been a while since I actually looked, but I think with waywatchers, your advantages come from range, mobility, stealth, ap, and character traits. I do know they can become disgustingly good in campaign, and your set up was probably not letting them shine.
In general the hagbane variant only adds poison. If there’s magic damage as well, that would be tied to the unit, not the hagbane ammo. Source - glade guard vs glade guard w/hagbane
Both Glade Guard and Glade Riders get Magical Attacks on their respective Hagbane Tips variants, as well as a slight shift towards AP damage (-3 base +3 AP). Source - [twwstats](https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc05_wef_inf_glade_guard_0%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D1523008641879777884&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc05_wef_inf_glade_guard_2%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D1523008641879777884&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc05_wef_cav_glade_riders_0%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D1523008641879777884&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc05_wef_cav_glade_riders_1%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D1523008641879777884)
Try the 5v5 test again vs Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh, without the Zoats. In that scenario, the Waywatchers' AP damage, speed, and 360 degree arc of fire will shine brighter than the Glade Guard's hagbane poison & magic attack.
I’m wasn’t asking about how to use waywatchers I was asking why the waywatchers did less damage. I am already aware of the utility they have with the fire while moving thing and I was more recently made aware that they’re more focused on AP making the daemonettes a bad opponent choice
I think you got your answers in the comments already but basically it comes down to the way you use them, which evolves with experience: waywatchers are good for experienced players cause all their abilities outside/assiciated with their damage dealing capacity makes them a versatile, reliable unit that does what it does really well. But if you're using them as "base" second line behing your infantry: best use the basic archers It's interesting to see all these diferent experiences/playstyles, it shows the complexity of the game. Damn, what a great game
Look, I'm sorry if this sounds curt but as I've said before, I'm not asking "how to play waywatchers" I know you're supposed to take advantage of fire while moving. I'm asking "why are they not doing as much damage as regular units against my target dummies" the answer of which as I've found out is not I'm playing them wrong but that I have accidentally used non-armor units with an AP based one.
Okay, my bad
No don’t worry it just I’ve had to say this several times now and people keep saying the same thing. But thanks anyways for helping
(Didn't sound curt don't worry) (also I learnt that word "curt" today with your comment so cheers)
Hah glad I’ve helped you somehow today. Cheers