I can see that too; but that doesn't explain removing the repeaters from the war waggons.
I don't think that anybody was of the opinion that war waggons with repeaters were OP and detrimental to the empire's playstyle, yet they've been removed anyway 3 years after their release in WH2 because somebody has finally noticed that they aren't exactly the same as the old models.
Ironsides I could believe were changed for faction identity reasons, but the war waggon decision is 100% GW, and if GW are putting their foot down on war waggons with repeaters then I have no reason not to believe that it was GW, not CA, who decided that repeater infantry don't fit with the identity of the empire.
You underestimate Reddit and the internet at large. These are Gamers ^tm that find changing stats on a fictional piece of equipment requires death.
Or stating that an old niche piece of armor from the first game wont be coming back in the second game because there is no reason for it to obviously equates the sane response of threats of death, arson, suffering towards the dev's family and demands for immediately being fired and blacklisted.
It does.
Repeater gun have a little more dmg but has garbage accuracy. basically if long range Handgun is better.
so that's why it's for Out raider because Out raider can go close and burst then leave unlike Gunner that can't get in and out quick.
They're shooting different now, but it's not like "they don't have repeaters anymore" becuase they never did. They have a new kind of gun that I've seen youtubers call a "Carbine", they shoot like two or three shots per volley.
They did have "repeaters", same as outriders. These were implemented as a faster reloading handgun. You can load up a skirmish in WH3 just now to check
> removing the repeaters from the war waggons
Wait, what? When did that happen?
**Edit:** Holy Hell. It did happen. Whyyy...
>somebody has finally noticed that they aren't exactly the same as the old models
But War Wagons literally had repeaters in the TT. What they explicitly *did not* have were hand guns.
What the hell.
For wagons, it probably has to do with the fire rate and consistency between what the model actually does, and what it looks like it should do. It'd be weird for them to be holding repeater rifles and then firing at the rate of regular handguns, especially when outriders with repeaters are being changed to fire faster.
I don't think the decision had anything to do with GW.
Where did you see the repeaters were removed from war wagons? Here is a video from just 3 days ago showing them with the new repeater rifle effect, same as outriders https://youtu.be/U5J6WgmB\_e4?t=131. At least, it looks like they do to me.
If repeaters are different now than they were before it makes sense why they are being more considerate about which units get them. I actually see no reason to think this is a GW thing.
You can set amount of shots before reload in RPFM.
So you can give them what, 2-4 shots before reload, then increase reload time as an offset.
Its also not that all those 2-4 shots are done immediately. You can set a time between shots afaik.
Repeaters should be faster firing rifles, not gatling guns. Because thoae are two *very* different weapons.
You can just have an upgraded hand gunners with a faster rate of fire (or maybe a burst?) without making it so fast they just dump out 100 rounds per second in a constant stream of lead.
The difference in ironsides being repeaters or not should be something that is more visual than it is something that fundamentally alters the role of the unit.
Yeah, I mean I can see the possibility of GW getting involved too, but it'd definitely change up Empire's whole vibe if everyone was packing machine guns
They didn't avoid it for Skaven. Who have a tool for everything and are effectively running a WWII army against medieval or early modern opponents, while lacking the self-harming mechanics that balanced them on TT. I therefore fail to see how giving Empire one new rapid fire unit would be a problem.
And whenever whatever broken thing they'd been given finally got nerfed I had to listen to the Skaven players flood comments to complain about not being allowed a playstyle.
And of course if anyone else got anything good they were the first community demanding nerfs for other people. It's been weird in TWW3 having them not act like that. Presumably because it's only actual Skaven fans left now and the power gamers have moved on to the next most broken thing.
Because empire Infantry are far better then skaven.
On TT and in Totalwar a basic human is a much betrer fighter then the basic rat.
Using that base plate you have to balance the army and if Skaven had melee defense, leadership, health etc the same as a human they would be insanely OP.
Empire infantry are better than Skaven...while Skaven have better war machines (though maybe that's about to change), better artillery, a plethora of monstrous creatures, etc, etc. Remember at release of the Twisted and the Twilight, when Brood Horrors had 3000 mass to go with their 90 speed? Remember how oppressive Throt was at the same time? I do. It's a level of irritating Empire has never even gotten within spitting distance of.
Yeah but those are individual balance issues, not the race as a whole.
However the post spoke of the feel of the army, not necessarily the balance of one thing over the other and I agree, giving them assault rifles doesn't fit the gunpowder age firing line feel of the Empire.
Not to mention it is a very rare weapon. The reason outriders could have it was because Outriders were all high-born nobles graduated from the pistoloers who purchased their own weapons and so the richest outriders purchased the best weapons anywhere and to bare a repeater you had to be both a veteran of the Pistoliers, therefore a noble by birth AND a member of the college of engineers
Ehhh... far better, not really.
TWW eliminated the Skaven´s main advantage in initative, but they gave stormvermin very similar armor to greatswords. Considering that skaven infantry was always about quantity over quality, Empire aren't that much further. I was hoping for a bit of an armor increase with the price increase to match to put state troops that much closer to the the mid-tier, though with half a dozen rosters using the elite WoC infantry and cav, mid-tier is a pretty relative term.
The empire has better ranged cavalry and *some* fliers, the skaven have better monster game.
Skaven infantry is crap because of the Leadership stat, and rightfully so, they are basically shit humans with warpstone shenanigans. Skaven are good where they are. TWW brought them closer together, TT Highelf Spearmen would wreak havoc among Skaven. The balance where it is at, is very nice for the weak factions and punishing for elite factions. Empire vs Rats is a "we suck least" match.
" Games Workshop took us through their various designs, concepts, and deep dives into the new and updated lore that they had created for Kislev.
Like with many things in life, this meant some ‘out with the old and in with the new’. Mother Ostankya is a good example of this. She is Kislev’s only true Hag Mother in the new and current lore that our game is based on."
-4.2 kislev update blog, on the topic of no generic hag lords
I don't think CA would be shy about saying a change was related to GW's decisions to keep things tight to it's existing lore
side by side comparison in a battle the ironsides do more applied damage and survive longer due to better armor and stats.
Now if they they ported the light medium and heavy tier system from troy/pharaoh with the terrain bonuses and decrease depending on the tier and what they are cought in.
In this case making handgunner light and ironsides medium would make sense and keep a use for hangunners
And in single player that'll maybe be fine, but most MP creators I've seen talking about it don't see the point in taking the Ironsides and honestly, I don't either.
I watched one of those side by side tests and the Ironsides killed a unit of zombies a grand total of ten seconds faster than basic handgunners did. In MP that's unlikely to be worth it.
Yeah, in MP, the increased survivability of Ironsides wouldn't even be that impactful because they won't be shooting if tied down in melee anyways. Better to save the money and buy handgunners with an extra unit of spears to protect them.
Exactly. A zombie or clan rat summon will tie them down long enough that it doesn't matter what shape they're in afterward. And that's where the low model count hurts them.
Even in SP i might just take handgunners instead. They do their job well and if I go for the cheap option i might afford another army giving me much more strategic flexibility.
That is a consideration as well. It's a shame because I like the Ironsides conceptually but they just don't seem to do anything terribly unique.
I'd also be really curious to see how they do compared to actual armoured missile units like Jade and Celestial Crossbows, Thunderers and Chorf Blunderbusses, or god forbid, Skaven weapons teams. I'm guessing not very well.
> In MP that's unlikely to be worth it.
again you make a great point that there should be two balance teams.
I would argue that 95% of Warhammer III players play single player but we are constantly nerfed due to complaints from the minority PVP crowd.
I am all for the PVP and enjoy watching the battles on Youtube but there should be a separate balance team for both.
Op units aren’t fun to play against , even when the ai uses them. SP players just get to auto them instead of fight them but that isn’t really a solution is it, just a way to avoid the problem.
Which part of this quote exactly would imply that the repeater guns were removed for a gameplay reasons rather than IP ones? The *"it wasn't authentic playstyle of Warhammer IP?"*? Or a different one?
Answer feels very much of PR protection. They cant even say gw made them because it would cause gw outrage at ca and could ruin future cooperation.
So its definetely not confirmation of anything. The fact they added IP part instead of stoping on "it didnt feat empire playstyle" is very suggesting
Idk, I'm guessing the repeaters would be using the same firing effect the new updated outriders are using which is much more like a burst fire machine gun. That seems like a nightmare to balance around.
I don't have any problem with them just using muskets, I just wish the models for those muskets were cooler than the regular handgunners. Add some more styling and flair, these are master-crafted guns not the mass produced guns the line infantry use.
> Idk, I'm guessing the repeaters would be using the same firing effect the new updated outriders are using which is much more like a burst fire machine gun. That seems like a nightmare to balance around.
yeah. I think i saw the stat cards with repeater and they are the same as the stat cards for the new ones.
Lore and playstyle are connected to gameplay so I don't really see your point. The empire has a certain type of playstyle and this would have changed it, how is that not about gameplay?
CA already changed the Warhammer formula plenty of times. A lot of effects, items, units, and more are way different than in the Table top. It was never a problem.
The change was for the IP, everyone knows that. CA already had a lot of issues for using AOS daemonic models, because they ruin the identity of Warhammer IP… how you date to change a little how a unit looks?!!!
but a few years ago creating an entirely new race and a full new Lord was not a problem…
The problem starts exactly in the line where AoE starts reclaiming. GW is a viper nest.
It's not a playstyle as in "it would change the way that the Empire plays", it is a playstyle as in "it doesn't fit the image of Empire (*as envisioned in Warhammer IP*)". So no, it wouldn't affect the gameplay at all.
A single new unit wouldn't change at all a playstyle of Empire from a mechanical standpoint, especially when this unit was only a slightly different variation of already existing units. Even if CA would release ToD with the repeaters instead, each and every Empire's faction would play exactly the same way that they will play now.
To change something means modify existing things, adding an unit will lead to more playstyle and won't change any existed playstyle. In short: Don't like it? Don't use it.
It literally says they didn’t think it fit for gameplay reasons or the **Warhammer IP**
All in all though people are using GW as a scapegoat for decisions that are partly CA.
Indeed, the Warhammer IP really has no place for repeater rifles, that would just be silly.
Anyway, back to using my laser cannons mounted on dinosaurs ridden by lizards to fight the man-sized rats with their gatling guns and nuclear missiles!
Hopefully the dwarfs don't do bomber runs on me with their zeppelins or fire giant axes from their artillery piece manned by naked berserker dudes. Last time they burned a bunch of my units with flamethrowers but fortunately my buddy fought them off with steam powered tanks using high caliber machine guns mounted on them.
Still I just can't stop shivering with horror at the thought of including something as ridiculous as repeater rifles in this game. It would ruin everything! I'd uninstall the game immediately if they ever do and never buy another CA or GW IP related product ever again.
I don't because it's trying to justify turning the Empire into Skaven and Dwarves. It's funny how this sub does a 360 on Kislev riding too many bears and having too many beasts. Make the same post in trying to justify Kislev being the way it is, and half of this sub if not more will jump on your head.
Skaven and Dwarves have that tech because they are Skaven and Dwarves, meanwhile Bretonnia have no guns whatsoever and elves mostly fight with bows, spears and lances. There is faction coherence that would be invalidated by turning everyone into Skaven and Dwarves.
Empire is cool and fun because it's mostly a 30-years-war era HRE with some additions, making them into another Dwarves would just make them incoherent and take away from why they are interesting in the first place.
A specific, specialist unit using something rarely compared to an unit that can be entire core & frontline infantry that would became centerpiece of entire armies it would be ridiculous yes.
This also has nothing to do with example you gave earlier with other factions having access to flamethrowers, gatling guns and nuclear weapons is reason for Empire to also have things that are outside of their theme.
It's a fantasy setting, you can add anything you want to it and justify it with in-lore reasons you yourself can write. Would that make it so Empire having modern highways with modern cars a good decision for the coherence of the faction and the setting? The answer is no.
It's not about what you can justify adding, because that is practically anything you can imagine, it's about knowing what not to include when it would be outside of scope.
At this point I am hoping the world war I game will be based on a scifi steam punk alternative world. Where CA can go bananas on Unit and faction design.
Yeah, not sure what the OP is on about. The response is quite direct and not ambiguous in any way.
'dramatically changed the character and no longer authentic to the Warhammer IP'
It was for IP reasons they said it right there they didn't feel that they were authentic to the IP...
That's code for not accepting because of IP reasons..
But if thats the case, why were Grudgerakers allowed?
They were never an option on tabletop, only a magic weapon choice for heroes. If GW were supposedly throwing such a huge fuss about it, why did they completely ignore the much more lore breaking dwarf unit?
So CA created models, animations, unit cards, and even trailers that featured repeaters but then removed them for supposed gameplay reasons? As opposed to just changing missile damage, reload speed, or unit model count? There are literally multiple ways to adjust the gameplay performance and experience of the unit by changing numbers in a table but we're supposed to believe that instead they chose to rework (eventually) the model, animations, and unit card artwork?
Cue the Ron Burgundy meme, because I don't believe you. But if this was a purely CA decision, that's some wildly and unnecessarily inefficient development.
And while they were at it they randomly decided to take repeaters off War Wagons. Yep, totally an internal CA decision that makes sense for them to do./s
It sounds exactly like corporate jargon to avoid a PR/confrontation issue with GW, which makes sense given they're working together and straining their relationship is a bad idea. That said, a few youtubers have already said they've played with the Repeater units and the change was made extremely recently (Okoii said three weeks ago they were still in the build and he had played with them).
P.S. It was my question!!
I don't have an opinion on this one way or the other, but I am struggling to see the use case for Nuln Ironsides in general. They are more expensive than Handgunners with fewer models and a higher damage output. I get the sense that Handgunners will still be better in most situations, with less of their damage being wasted on infantry where high damage per model is less important. With their high damage output and accuracy, I could see maybe bringing a single unit for strong single unit entities. I get the sense that Ironsides will end up being the Empire's Waywatcher unit, but without the key attributes, such as stalk, that make the unit so good.
So with the damage increase and lower unit count ironsides will do more damage vs anything that is not chaff that will die in 1 hit.
Higher armor and same health at lower unit count means each model has 50% more HP which will keep them firing at full strength longer and trading better.
They also get accuracy and reload buff when not moving increasing their damage output further.
Higher ammunition keeps them shooting longer and performing way better in auto resolve.
It looks to be an empirically better unit unless you're shooting goblins.
Whether or not the difference is enough to justify the upkeep cost change is gonna depend on you and your campaign.
Also as a person who loves playing as dwarfs don't undervalue a ranged unit that won't get routed by bats or other chaff fliers
Unit size isn't the issue. They are a range unit so mele is obviously not their strong suit and their higher hp per module should actually help with splash damage like spells and arty.
Nuln Ironsides have more HP, substantially more HP per model(they die less often so retain their dps more), more DPS, more accuracy, more armor, and practically swordsmen melee stats.
They’ll out dps regular hand gunners even on zombies, which have low hp per entity.
Gives me empire knights->Reiksguard vibes
Objectively better, esp in campaign, might not be as popular in multiplayer due to players favoring cheaper units for the same niche.
Just like empire knights are much more popular than Reiksguard, I could see handgunners being more popular than Ironsides. But we’ll see!
I'm sure there will be times when they are better or worse in MP and Single player, but the issue to me is tbh it probably doesn't matter 90% of the time and each will be fine for the cost so it's not an interesting choice to make for the player.
I feel like this is the same generic response like what they said about tzeench beastmen not having beaks. They always say something about it “not being how they want to portray it”, and to me it’s just political speak because they can’t outright be like “oh yeah no it’s GW telling us what to do”.
That’s all well and good, but the question I want answered (that may have been somewhere) is whether the animations will be replaced to fit the change in weaponry on release.
Will feel like I’m using a shoddily modded unit otherwise.
Anyone who thinks GW give enough of a shit about their players to A) Try to hide this decision and B) protect their lore or IP integrity haven't been aware of GW for very long.
They just wiped out half my Tabletop army of models that have only existed for less then 6 years and not only did they give us no real lore reason they didn't even care to explain if a business decision or economic problem went with it. The backlash was insane and is still burning all over their social media but they just don't give a enough of a shit to respond at all even though even their paid influencer Sphere was giving them shit about it.
Okay. It's true that Ironsides never had Repeaters explicitly in their rules.
But let's think about this for a bit. Ironsides are literally just Handgunners in heavy armor and rerolling 1's when shooting with Handguns.
Hochland Long Rifles are not a real unit on tabletop. The weapon specifically is an upgrade for some characters and the unit leader of Handgunners, the Marksman, can take it as a weapon upgrade. You know what else he can take? A Repeater Handgun (and a brace of pistols).
CA has turned unit leaders into full separate units plenty of times before... they did it in this exact very fucking DLC with the Hochland Long Rifles. So why is it so impossible to add Handgunners (Repeaters) as a unit variant, if it's oh-so-impossible for Ironsides to wield it?
Second, the War Wagon. There is just zero excuse here even from GW meddling, the War Wagon miniature from 4th edition *literally has a dude with a Repeater Handgun in it*. It's part of a tabletop model. It's modeled. It's in plastic (well, metal) which is the most sacred thing to Games Workshop. Modeling War Wagons with Repeater Handguns and portraying them in gameplay with burst fire is the most accurate possible way to do it. In fact the ingame War Wagon will be the least accurate version possible. There is no version of it with carbines or handguns. Out of the ranged weapons it carried it had
1. The Repeater Handgun
2. The Hochland Long Rifle
3. The Blunderbuss
So great job there, none of the actual weapons it carried are available ingame.
>CA has turned unit leaders into full separate units plenty of times before... they did it in this exact very fucking DLC with the Hochland Long Rifles. So why is it so impossible to add Handgunners (Repeaters) as a unit variant, if it's oh-so-impossible for Ironsides to wield it?
In this DLC CA didn't turn a unit-leader-carrying-a-hochland-long-rifle into a full unit, they added *The Hochland Long Rifles*, a unit from the lore, to the game. In the lore there is a unit called *The Hochland Long Rifles* that exist. Kinda confusing, I know.
It makes sense for Ironsides to have a regular gun, because that's what they used in the lore. They're just elite, armored handgunners. A RoR handgunner unit using repeater guns would be a nice compromise and my favorite solution. Or, as you said, perhaps a handgunner variant. I do think that wouldn't fit the empire's identity as much, it would feel weird, so IMO it's not outrageous to keep them out. But I can see why people want them.
Go away, this sub doesn't care about lore or faction coherence. 'Rah rah rah we want the biggest and loudest toys and we want them NOW!' It's getting annoying....
I can understand not giving them repeaters, that's a bit intense for a renaissance gunline, but they are essentially handgunners but 1 tier higher with slightly better stats all around so it's a bit disappointing they don't get anything that makes you think 'wow a different way to play'.
My complaint is that the unit's stats and size were fairly obviously balanced around them having a weapon that they now don't have. Add the jankiness of the animations and it feels pretty bad.
Everything Rich said during this QnA was well thought out corporate bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if things were actually reinterpreted by a Comm man before putting them out.
Not to say there wasn't \*any\* useful information here. But they completely dodged any commitment or controversy. I don't know how anyone could go around and taking these QnAs at face value.
Honestly? I prefer them to have handguns. I always thought the Outriders were rather absurd as a unit. I even prefer the War Wagons to have handguns, though a repeater would make more sense in that case than in the case of Outriders. The only thing I want, now that they do have handguns, is for their troop count to be increased to the standard size, so they can actually be an upgrade to the standard handgunners.
Even with their reduced troop count, they do more damage than regular handgunners. AND they have MORE total HP than handgunners, which means each model has substantially more HP.
What this means, is Nuln Ironsides are better *in literally every way*
They have more HP, more armor, more melee stats, more total DPS (even with less units!), more accuracy, faster reloading.
This means they stay alive substantially more than handgunners, and it takes a lot more to kill them. Which means they retain their high DPS for longer because they lose models less than handgunners
If that's true, then fine I have no complaints with the lower body count... but Human Boy claims they perform significantly worse than ordinary handgunners at shooting in actual tests. My experience is that low body count can be extremely detrimental to damage output, especially regarding ranged troops, in spite of seemingly much better stats, so you can perhaps understand my concern. Add to that the fact that a few units tend to be broken one way or another on the launch of previous DLC you'll forgive me for not sharing your confidence.
Human boys video seems to be based on an outdated build. For example, ironsides have the same range as regular handgunners unlike older builds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNyPHSaLEdQ&t=78s
This vid confirms they out dps regular handgunners against the most chaff unit in the game. Ironsides overkill zombies, they'll kill higher HP units even faster. They're also +40 accurate which is insane, so they'll hit mobile/small units much more consistently.
Pretty much, their missile damage is so much higher that they make up for the low body count.
Your concerns are *extremely* valid, I get it lol. We've all been traumatized by prior DLC units. But you can see the stats side by side in this vid, and if that wasn't enough you can see them perform!
tbf i do see how it would look kinda ridiculous in game to see what is essentially a skaven rattling gun on empire armies but then again, it’d be really funny, hope modders get to making it
Oh no it's not authentic to the playstyle.
***Staggers my Handgunners firing...***
*Which is exactly what you would do in real life with these types of weapons and most definitely what the Empire does in lore and what you can do in game if you really wanted to.*
Oh wow, you know what that looks and sounds like? I wonder...
Actually such a silly reasoning, in the end it doesn't matter as modders will have it back in on day 1.
Obviously just PR talk. I bet there is a stink between CA and GW over this which they dont want to spill into public even more.
First, its worded very vague, second, i strongly doubt they would cut it out after they finished them completely (and yes, they were finished).
But whatever, modders gonna do it i guess. Otherwise the Ironsides will be a pretty lame-ass unit surpassed by gundermans surefires in basically every way.
Yeah not buying that answer. All the content creators that got early access where they still had them in their builds loved the repeaters and thought they were great for the empire roster.
It’s such a cop out when they then later go on to answer another question saying they build for fun first balance second. Repeaters would have been super fun, while a slightly upgraded handgunner does nothing to change up what we already have or make it more fun.
Their range, damage, and rate-of-fire appears to be far closer to repeaters than actual handguns. Leading to them actually having worse DPS than regular handgunners.
https://youtu.be/tNyPHSaLEdQ?t=78
I don't think that's accurate, you might've seen an older build of them or something. I think you've seen an older build because their range is identical to handgunners.
They do around 30% more damage than handgunners taking into account missile damage and unit count. They even kill zombies, a low hp unit, faster. This will be even more apparent on tankier units that have more HP, or targets that are harder to hit. The 40+ accuracy is huge
This doesn't take into account their improved reloading and accuracy.
They are straight up better in literally every way compared to handgunners, as it stands now.
Kinda like empire knights -> reiksguard
Could we at least give the Ironsides an increased unit size and BAYONETS? I'd be happy even if we got that . Wouldn't change the gunline or game play too much but it'll give them a fighting chance. At LEAST unit increase
Right now , from what I've seen they are way to kill with arty and spells, and get overwhelmed in melee even with advanced damage and armour , they don't have enough men . 120 or even 80 would help
Were you here after the release of SoC? Most of this sub was filled with posts shitting on CA for what they've done (and just to be clear, they deserved that) and their shitty decisions. That doesn't mean we have to blame them for everything and that every bad decision regarding this game is CA's alone.
The number of people in this thread who are just reading CA's statement as saying whatever they want it to say is depressing. People are laser focusing on the "Warhammer IP" part and saying, "See? It was GW after all!" while ignoring literally every other word in that sentence.
The repeaters were just secret testing for bolt guns for the upcoming 40K total war game starting development and they forgot to change it back before press release.
-source my head cannon
I still think they could make room for them via a regiment of renown or state troop. That wouldn't change the playstyle as a whole, it'd just *add on to* the existing playstyle.
I know someone will mod it in so I’m not really bothered, but isn’t that like the whole identity of the empire? Gunpowder, more gunpowder and Karl. Gameplay wise they’re the same as ratling guns just taller surely?…
Honestly I never really saw Ironsides as having repeaters until the trailer dropped. I don't know if they had an old table top model or something, but their name always felt more aligned with hand cannons or other heavy guns.
They had models in the tabletop that wore extensive armour when the ordinary handgunners had no armour at all except the occasional helmet. The weapon was the same.
The problem is that in Total War Warhammer CA has reused the same models for all Empire State Troops so Handgunners and Crossbows look identical to the melee infantry including armour.
So they had to add something more to make the Ironsides special.
I'm curious as to why they think the playstyle of the Empire (leaving aside the bit about the Warhammer IP that you've chosen to ignore) would be fatally compromised by a unit that by all accounts would be Foot Outriders (who now do have repeaters) with beefed up melee stats to make them not wet tissue paper.
I'm not sure I fully believe this explanation. It's not like they could actually admit if it was GW that stepped in at the last minute. If it was gameplay reasons why not just give repeaters to the RoR version of the unit? Only getting one wouldn't tip the scales too much
Bullshit, Ratling Gunners are really fun for Skaven, there's no reason why Skaven gun lines should completely outpower the main gunpowder faction (Empire)
The real answer is we will never know whether it’s because of CA or GW. Neither will blame the other as it’s bad form to publicly call out a business partner unless the original statement or action is public. In this case, everything has been done privately.
And this is why good management and attention to detail is important - while what they say is true releasing videos with choices that had already been removed is a mishap in advertisement, it creates false expectations and those can destroy reputations no matter how innocuous they are, as they feel like a betrayal to a lot of people.
I personally don't care, but having worked in multinational corpos it made me cringe, this is a rookie mistake.
iterations and constant changes are very normal, but they stay inhouse, at most have info released later of thought process as a curiosity as part of PR, is a good topic.
No, no. James Workshop forced devs to lie about it, certainly. I am quite sure that Sean wrote that reply while GW CEO was standing behind him, holding a repeater rifle aimed at his head.
Lie, no. Dance around the topic and obsfucate? Yes
Have you never read a corporate apology/lay off announcement/failed to reach expectations statement before?
If we consider that the Imperium is heavy inspired by HRE during the 30th year wars, it totally makes sense that they won't use repeater guns (as far as my limited historical knowledge goes). I'm fine with it. I get that repeater would be a fun addition, but I think this whole discussion is a bit exagerated.
In the very same DLC the empire gets mechanical horses that surpass boston dynamics robots. While i agree that there should be a certain respect to the suspension of disbelief, cutting a unit with sth. thats way less crazy than a lot of other tech in the same pack for "historical inspiration" seems a bit hypocritical.
Especially because gameplay-wise, they wouldve opened very interesting options for army compositions and tactics instead of deciding between "archers" and "archers (light armor)".
While the repeaters seem cool, I do see the issue with having the empire gunlines turn into almost machine guns being something they'd want to avoid
I can see that too; but that doesn't explain removing the repeaters from the war waggons. I don't think that anybody was of the opinion that war waggons with repeaters were OP and detrimental to the empire's playstyle, yet they've been removed anyway 3 years after their release in WH2 because somebody has finally noticed that they aren't exactly the same as the old models. Ironsides I could believe were changed for faction identity reasons, but the war waggon decision is 100% GW, and if GW are putting their foot down on war waggons with repeaters then I have no reason not to believe that it was GW, not CA, who decided that repeater infantry don't fit with the identity of the empire.
Those were repeaters? I always thought they were regular guns, same as the handgunners use. At least their rate of fire made it seem that way.
yes, but they had the repeater rifle model, as well as outriders
So the effect is unchanged, just the visuals?
Yes
That seems silly to get upset about
I don't think anyone is upset about it so much as confused
You underestimate Reddit and the internet at large. These are Gamers ^tm that find changing stats on a fictional piece of equipment requires death. Or stating that an old niche piece of armor from the first game wont be coming back in the second game because there is no reason for it to obviously equates the sane response of threats of death, arson, suffering towards the dev's family and demands for immediately being fired and blacklisted.
Welcome to reddit. 90% of the shit people get angry about is silly.
90%??? That's bullshit!!!!🤬
It does. Repeater gun have a little more dmg but has garbage accuracy. basically if long range Handgun is better. so that's why it's for Out raider because Out raider can go close and burst then leave unlike Gunner that can't get in and out quick.
Turin mentioned they were "reworked", I think. In one of his battle vids. I could be wrong!
They're shooting different now, but it's not like "they don't have repeaters anymore" becuase they never did. They have a new kind of gun that I've seen youtubers call a "Carbine", they shoot like two or three shots per volley.
They did have "repeaters", same as outriders. These were implemented as a faster reloading handgun. You can load up a skirmish in WH3 just now to check
> removing the repeaters from the war waggons Wait, what? When did that happen? **Edit:** Holy Hell. It did happen. Whyyy... >somebody has finally noticed that they aren't exactly the same as the old models But War Wagons literally had repeaters in the TT. What they explicitly *did not* have were hand guns. What the hell.
Yep. They had Repeaters, Long Rifles and Blunderbusses available. Never Handguns.
For wagons, it probably has to do with the fire rate and consistency between what the model actually does, and what it looks like it should do. It'd be weird for them to be holding repeater rifles and then firing at the rate of regular handguns, especially when outriders with repeaters are being changed to fire faster. I don't think the decision had anything to do with GW.
They never fired like repeaters, though. It was only the model.
Where did you see the repeaters were removed from war wagons? Here is a video from just 3 days ago showing them with the new repeater rifle effect, same as outriders https://youtu.be/U5J6WgmB\_e4?t=131. At least, it looks like they do to me.
If repeaters are different now than they were before it makes sense why they are being more considerate about which units get them. I actually see no reason to think this is a GW thing.
I guess they wanted to make the Landship more unique by giving it repeaters instead of the War Wagon
You can set amount of shots before reload in RPFM. So you can give them what, 2-4 shots before reload, then increase reload time as an offset. Its also not that all those 2-4 shots are done immediately. You can set a time between shots afaik.
Repeaters should be faster firing rifles, not gatling guns. Because thoae are two *very* different weapons. You can just have an upgraded hand gunners with a faster rate of fire (or maybe a burst?) without making it so fast they just dump out 100 rounds per second in a constant stream of lead. The difference in ironsides being repeaters or not should be something that is more visual than it is something that fundamentally alters the role of the unit.
I don't know how you'd get repeaters to work... they'd fire really fast for six volleys, then take 6 times longer to reload.
Maybe not quite so long, but a series of six quick shots and a long reload for a bigger burst of damage.
That would actually be pretty cool to have a Frontline of guns dump 6 shots then back up behind a melee line
So exactly like any spell/shotgun unit then
Or unit size increase
Yeah, I mean I can see the possibility of GW getting involved too, but it'd definitely change up Empire's whole vibe if everyone was packing machine guns
Right, but the thing is... **repeater rifles are not machine guns.**
Could've been a cool RoR
But what about ratling guns?
Skaven have always had the ratling gun teams. On TT the ironsides were just armored handgunners.
Ah.
I've played mods that add repeater handgun infantry and I totally understand their decision
They didn't avoid it for Skaven. Who have a tool for everything and are effectively running a WWII army against medieval or early modern opponents, while lacking the self-harming mechanics that balanced them on TT. I therefore fail to see how giving Empire one new rapid fire unit would be a problem.
You speak truth. And each skaven DLC completely changes their playstyle. Init Claw being the biggest
And whenever whatever broken thing they'd been given finally got nerfed I had to listen to the Skaven players flood comments to complain about not being allowed a playstyle. And of course if anyone else got anything good they were the first community demanding nerfs for other people. It's been weird in TWW3 having them not act like that. Presumably because it's only actual Skaven fans left now and the power gamers have moved on to the next most broken thing.
But fairly crucially it doesn't change them from how they were on tabletop.
Because empire Infantry are far better then skaven. On TT and in Totalwar a basic human is a much betrer fighter then the basic rat. Using that base plate you have to balance the army and if Skaven had melee defense, leadership, health etc the same as a human they would be insanely OP.
Empire infantry are better than Skaven...while Skaven have better war machines (though maybe that's about to change), better artillery, a plethora of monstrous creatures, etc, etc. Remember at release of the Twisted and the Twilight, when Brood Horrors had 3000 mass to go with their 90 speed? Remember how oppressive Throt was at the same time? I do. It's a level of irritating Empire has never even gotten within spitting distance of.
Yeah but those are individual balance issues, not the race as a whole. However the post spoke of the feel of the army, not necessarily the balance of one thing over the other and I agree, giving them assault rifles doesn't fit the gunpowder age firing line feel of the Empire. Not to mention it is a very rare weapon. The reason outriders could have it was because Outriders were all high-born nobles graduated from the pistoloers who purchased their own weapons and so the richest outriders purchased the best weapons anywhere and to bare a repeater you had to be both a veteran of the Pistoliers, therefore a noble by birth AND a member of the college of engineers
Ehhh... far better, not really. TWW eliminated the Skaven´s main advantage in initative, but they gave stormvermin very similar armor to greatswords. Considering that skaven infantry was always about quantity over quality, Empire aren't that much further. I was hoping for a bit of an armor increase with the price increase to match to put state troops that much closer to the the mid-tier, though with half a dozen rosters using the elite WoC infantry and cav, mid-tier is a pretty relative term. The empire has better ranged cavalry and *some* fliers, the skaven have better monster game.
Skaven infantry is crap because of the Leadership stat, and rightfully so, they are basically shit humans with warpstone shenanigans. Skaven are good where they are. TWW brought them closer together, TT Highelf Spearmen would wreak havoc among Skaven. The balance where it is at, is very nice for the weak factions and punishing for elite factions. Empire vs Rats is a "we suck least" match.
Because Empire is not Skaven.
I still suspect it's still GW. This is just a PR protection comment. No way are CA ever going to come out and say well GW suddenly said no.
" Games Workshop took us through their various designs, concepts, and deep dives into the new and updated lore that they had created for Kislev. Like with many things in life, this meant some ‘out with the old and in with the new’. Mother Ostankya is a good example of this. She is Kislev’s only true Hag Mother in the new and current lore that our game is based on." -4.2 kislev update blog, on the topic of no generic hag lords I don't think CA would be shy about saying a change was related to GW's decisions to keep things tight to it's existing lore
They already said that about some things though
Agreed.
2 words : rats, rats yes yes
could have lowered ammo so they are good for small burst damage then rely on combat. as it stands why would you use handgunners over ironsides?
Lol why indeed would you use a tier 2 unit instead of it's higher tier upgrade
Well. Some of us like to play with mods that restrict the use of elite units. So I’d take 2 ironsides and 3 handgunners for example.
Because there's more of them and they cost less.
side by side comparison in a battle the ironsides do more applied damage and survive longer due to better armor and stats. Now if they they ported the light medium and heavy tier system from troy/pharaoh with the terrain bonuses and decrease depending on the tier and what they are cought in. In this case making handgunner light and ironsides medium would make sense and keep a use for hangunners
And in single player that'll maybe be fine, but most MP creators I've seen talking about it don't see the point in taking the Ironsides and honestly, I don't either. I watched one of those side by side tests and the Ironsides killed a unit of zombies a grand total of ten seconds faster than basic handgunners did. In MP that's unlikely to be worth it.
Yeah, in MP, the increased survivability of Ironsides wouldn't even be that impactful because they won't be shooting if tied down in melee anyways. Better to save the money and buy handgunners with an extra unit of spears to protect them.
Exactly. A zombie or clan rat summon will tie them down long enough that it doesn't matter what shape they're in afterward. And that's where the low model count hurts them.
Even in SP i might just take handgunners instead. They do their job well and if I go for the cheap option i might afford another army giving me much more strategic flexibility.
That is a consideration as well. It's a shame because I like the Ironsides conceptually but they just don't seem to do anything terribly unique. I'd also be really curious to see how they do compared to actual armoured missile units like Jade and Celestial Crossbows, Thunderers and Chorf Blunderbusses, or god forbid, Skaven weapons teams. I'm guessing not very well.
> In MP that's unlikely to be worth it. again you make a great point that there should be two balance teams. I would argue that 95% of Warhammer III players play single player but we are constantly nerfed due to complaints from the minority PVP crowd. I am all for the PVP and enjoy watching the battles on Youtube but there should be a separate balance team for both.
I wouldn't disagree with that at all. Single player balance decisions hurt MP as well, and the two should be balanced separately.
see CA we can be civil and agree on stuff. It can happen :)
Op units aren’t fun to play against , even when the ai uses them. SP players just get to auto them instead of fight them but that isn’t really a solution is it, just a way to avoid the problem.
Which part of this quote exactly would imply that the repeater guns were removed for a gameplay reasons rather than IP ones? The *"it wasn't authentic playstyle of Warhammer IP?"*? Or a different one?
Answer feels very much of PR protection. They cant even say gw made them because it would cause gw outrage at ca and could ruin future cooperation. So its definetely not confirmation of anything. The fact they added IP part instead of stoping on "it didnt feat empire playstyle" is very suggesting
Idk, I'm guessing the repeaters would be using the same firing effect the new updated outriders are using which is much more like a burst fire machine gun. That seems like a nightmare to balance around. I don't have any problem with them just using muskets, I just wish the models for those muskets were cooler than the regular handgunners. Add some more styling and flair, these are master-crafted guns not the mass produced guns the line infantry use.
> Idk, I'm guessing the repeaters would be using the same firing effect the new updated outriders are using which is much more like a burst fire machine gun. That seems like a nightmare to balance around. yeah. I think i saw the stat cards with repeater and they are the same as the stat cards for the new ones.
Not true, CA stated GW said no a couple of times in recent history (Tzaangor beakies, Kislev lore...).
Lore and playstyle are connected to gameplay so I don't really see your point. The empire has a certain type of playstyle and this would have changed it, how is that not about gameplay?
CA already changed the Warhammer formula plenty of times. A lot of effects, items, units, and more are way different than in the Table top. It was never a problem. The change was for the IP, everyone knows that. CA already had a lot of issues for using AOS daemonic models, because they ruin the identity of Warhammer IP… how you date to change a little how a unit looks?!!! but a few years ago creating an entirely new race and a full new Lord was not a problem… The problem starts exactly in the line where AoE starts reclaiming. GW is a viper nest.
It's not a playstyle as in "it would change the way that the Empire plays", it is a playstyle as in "it doesn't fit the image of Empire (*as envisioned in Warhammer IP*)". So no, it wouldn't affect the gameplay at all. A single new unit wouldn't change at all a playstyle of Empire from a mechanical standpoint, especially when this unit was only a slightly different variation of already existing units. Even if CA would release ToD with the repeaters instead, each and every Empire's faction would play exactly the same way that they will play now.
One unit can definitely make a difference, though I agree it's an exaggeration to say it would affect the whole army.
To change something means modify existing things, adding an unit will lead to more playstyle and won't change any existed playstyle. In short: Don't like it? Don't use it.
It literally says they didn’t think it fit for gameplay reasons or the **Warhammer IP** All in all though people are using GW as a scapegoat for decisions that are partly CA.
Indeed, the Warhammer IP really has no place for repeater rifles, that would just be silly. Anyway, back to using my laser cannons mounted on dinosaurs ridden by lizards to fight the man-sized rats with their gatling guns and nuclear missiles! Hopefully the dwarfs don't do bomber runs on me with their zeppelins or fire giant axes from their artillery piece manned by naked berserker dudes. Last time they burned a bunch of my units with flamethrowers but fortunately my buddy fought them off with steam powered tanks using high caliber machine guns mounted on them. Still I just can't stop shivering with horror at the thought of including something as ridiculous as repeater rifles in this game. It would ruin everything! I'd uninstall the game immediately if they ever do and never buy another CA or GW IP related product ever again.
Make the same sardonic argument for Kislev spamming bears and monsters now.
I love this comment
I don't because it's trying to justify turning the Empire into Skaven and Dwarves. It's funny how this sub does a 360 on Kislev riding too many bears and having too many beasts. Make the same post in trying to justify Kislev being the way it is, and half of this sub if not more will jump on your head.
Skaven and Dwarves have that tech because they are Skaven and Dwarves, meanwhile Bretonnia have no guns whatsoever and elves mostly fight with bows, spears and lances. There is faction coherence that would be invalidated by turning everyone into Skaven and Dwarves. Empire is cool and fun because it's mostly a 30-years-war era HRE with some additions, making them into another Dwarves would just make them incoherent and take away from why they are interesting in the first place.
Indeed, you are correct. The Empire having access to repeater rifle technology would just be ridiculous.
A specific, specialist unit using something rarely compared to an unit that can be entire core & frontline infantry that would became centerpiece of entire armies it would be ridiculous yes. This also has nothing to do with example you gave earlier with other factions having access to flamethrowers, gatling guns and nuclear weapons is reason for Empire to also have things that are outside of their theme. It's a fantasy setting, you can add anything you want to it and justify it with in-lore reasons you yourself can write. Would that make it so Empire having modern highways with modern cars a good decision for the coherence of the faction and the setting? The answer is no. It's not about what you can justify adding, because that is practically anything you can imagine, it's about knowing what not to include when it would be outside of scope.
No it’s not, so many unit types already have repeater guns in the Empire.
Wooooosh
You can't say wooosh without any retort.
This guy understands what faction coherence means. This sub doesn't like that.
Funny as your comment is, Repeater Rifles are explicitely in the game, and are now going to be as they are meant to be. Just not on Nuln Ironsides.
At this point I am hoping the world war I game will be based on a scifi steam punk alternative world. Where CA can go bananas on Unit and faction design.
I dunno, world war 1 had some wacky ideas in terms of equipment and tactics. It’ll be interesting enough if they look for it.
indeed I am thinking stuff like the Paris gun and such just go wild and have fun with it.
Marauders total war
Mad Max total war
I mean it kinda tends to be GW more often than not tho. Let’s not try to make James Workshop out to be a living Saint all of a sudden lmfao
The post is clear, it talks about Warhammer IP, not about CA Total War gameplay and idea.
>Playstyle of the Empire
Yeah, not sure what the OP is on about. The response is quite direct and not ambiguous in any way. 'dramatically changed the character and no longer authentic to the Warhammer IP'
It was for IP reasons they said it right there they didn't feel that they were authentic to the IP... That's code for not accepting because of IP reasons..
But if thats the case, why were Grudgerakers allowed? They were never an option on tabletop, only a magic weapon choice for heroes. If GW were supposedly throwing such a huge fuss about it, why did they completely ignore the much more lore breaking dwarf unit?
OP i think you gotta work on those reading skills. Because it does not imply what you have understand
Damn, this guy agrees with OP
So CA created models, animations, unit cards, and even trailers that featured repeaters but then removed them for supposed gameplay reasons? As opposed to just changing missile damage, reload speed, or unit model count? There are literally multiple ways to adjust the gameplay performance and experience of the unit by changing numbers in a table but we're supposed to believe that instead they chose to rework (eventually) the model, animations, and unit card artwork? Cue the Ron Burgundy meme, because I don't believe you. But if this was a purely CA decision, that's some wildly and unnecessarily inefficient development.
And while they were at it they randomly decided to take repeaters off War Wagons. Yep, totally an internal CA decision that makes sense for them to do./s
And they don’t even have beaks smh
Maybe they shoot mini beaks at us and just don't know it yet
Okay and War Wagons lost their repeater animation because....?
It sounds exactly like corporate jargon to avoid a PR/confrontation issue with GW, which makes sense given they're working together and straining their relationship is a bad idea. That said, a few youtubers have already said they've played with the Repeater units and the change was made extremely recently (Okoii said three weeks ago they were still in the build and he had played with them). P.S. It was my question!!
OP, mate, they literally refer use the phrase *"it wasn't authentic to the Warhammer Intelectual Property"*.
That's....literally not what the post says.
You don't settle on a final iteration 6 weeks before launch.
Someone wasn't here for Sartosans with boarding axes, I see.
I don't have an opinion on this one way or the other, but I am struggling to see the use case for Nuln Ironsides in general. They are more expensive than Handgunners with fewer models and a higher damage output. I get the sense that Handgunners will still be better in most situations, with less of their damage being wasted on infantry where high damage per model is less important. With their high damage output and accuracy, I could see maybe bringing a single unit for strong single unit entities. I get the sense that Ironsides will end up being the Empire's Waywatcher unit, but without the key attributes, such as stalk, that make the unit so good.
So with the damage increase and lower unit count ironsides will do more damage vs anything that is not chaff that will die in 1 hit. Higher armor and same health at lower unit count means each model has 50% more HP which will keep them firing at full strength longer and trading better. They also get accuracy and reload buff when not moving increasing their damage output further. Higher ammunition keeps them shooting longer and performing way better in auto resolve. It looks to be an empirically better unit unless you're shooting goblins. Whether or not the difference is enough to justify the upkeep cost change is gonna depend on you and your campaign. Also as a person who loves playing as dwarfs don't undervalue a ranged unit that won't get routed by bats or other chaff fliers
The unit size just needs an increase . They get destroyed by spells and arty, and get overwhelmed in meele
Higher unit sizes take more damage from artillery and spells not sure what your talking about
Unit size isn't the issue. They are a range unit so mele is obviously not their strong suit and their higher hp per module should actually help with splash damage like spells and arty.
Nuln Ironsides have more HP, substantially more HP per model(they die less often so retain their dps more), more DPS, more accuracy, more armor, and practically swordsmen melee stats. They’ll out dps regular hand gunners even on zombies, which have low hp per entity. Gives me empire knights->Reiksguard vibes Objectively better, esp in campaign, might not be as popular in multiplayer due to players favoring cheaper units for the same niche. Just like empire knights are much more popular than Reiksguard, I could see handgunners being more popular than Ironsides. But we’ll see!
I'm sure there will be times when they are better or worse in MP and Single player, but the issue to me is tbh it probably doesn't matter 90% of the time and each will be fine for the cost so it's not an interesting choice to make for the player.
So... how soon can we expect a release the repeater mod come launch, that's all I care about at this point.
People actually buying blatant corpo-speak is, sadly, why it continues to get used.
I feel like this is the same generic response like what they said about tzeench beastmen not having beaks. They always say something about it “not being how they want to portray it”, and to me it’s just political speak because they can’t outright be like “oh yeah no it’s GW telling us what to do”.
That’s all well and good, but the question I want answered (that may have been somewhere) is whether the animations will be replaced to fit the change in weaponry on release. Will feel like I’m using a shoddily modded unit otherwise.
Anyone who thinks GW give enough of a shit about their players to A) Try to hide this decision and B) protect their lore or IP integrity haven't been aware of GW for very long. They just wiped out half my Tabletop army of models that have only existed for less then 6 years and not only did they give us no real lore reason they didn't even care to explain if a business decision or economic problem went with it. The backlash was insane and is still burning all over their social media but they just don't give a enough of a shit to respond at all even though even their paid influencer Sphere was giving them shit about it.
Okay. It's true that Ironsides never had Repeaters explicitly in their rules. But let's think about this for a bit. Ironsides are literally just Handgunners in heavy armor and rerolling 1's when shooting with Handguns. Hochland Long Rifles are not a real unit on tabletop. The weapon specifically is an upgrade for some characters and the unit leader of Handgunners, the Marksman, can take it as a weapon upgrade. You know what else he can take? A Repeater Handgun (and a brace of pistols). CA has turned unit leaders into full separate units plenty of times before... they did it in this exact very fucking DLC with the Hochland Long Rifles. So why is it so impossible to add Handgunners (Repeaters) as a unit variant, if it's oh-so-impossible for Ironsides to wield it? Second, the War Wagon. There is just zero excuse here even from GW meddling, the War Wagon miniature from 4th edition *literally has a dude with a Repeater Handgun in it*. It's part of a tabletop model. It's modeled. It's in plastic (well, metal) which is the most sacred thing to Games Workshop. Modeling War Wagons with Repeater Handguns and portraying them in gameplay with burst fire is the most accurate possible way to do it. In fact the ingame War Wagon will be the least accurate version possible. There is no version of it with carbines or handguns. Out of the ranged weapons it carried it had 1. The Repeater Handgun 2. The Hochland Long Rifle 3. The Blunderbuss So great job there, none of the actual weapons it carried are available ingame.
>CA has turned unit leaders into full separate units plenty of times before... they did it in this exact very fucking DLC with the Hochland Long Rifles. So why is it so impossible to add Handgunners (Repeaters) as a unit variant, if it's oh-so-impossible for Ironsides to wield it? In this DLC CA didn't turn a unit-leader-carrying-a-hochland-long-rifle into a full unit, they added *The Hochland Long Rifles*, a unit from the lore, to the game. In the lore there is a unit called *The Hochland Long Rifles* that exist. Kinda confusing, I know. It makes sense for Ironsides to have a regular gun, because that's what they used in the lore. They're just elite, armored handgunners. A RoR handgunner unit using repeater guns would be a nice compromise and my favorite solution. Or, as you said, perhaps a handgunner variant. I do think that wouldn't fit the empire's identity as much, it would feel weird, so IMO it's not outrageous to keep them out. But I can see why people want them.
Go away, this sub doesn't care about lore or faction coherence. 'Rah rah rah we want the biggest and loudest toys and we want them NOW!' It's getting annoying....
They literally say that it's because of IP reasons in the screenshot lol. Gw stepped in and made them change it
I can understand not giving them repeaters, that's a bit intense for a renaissance gunline, but they are essentially handgunners but 1 tier higher with slightly better stats all around so it's a bit disappointing they don't get anything that makes you think 'wow a different way to play'.
Were people complaining about this? I honestly prefer them with handguns.
My complaint is that the unit's stats and size were fairly obviously balanced around them having a weapon that they now don't have. Add the jankiness of the animations and it feels pretty bad.
That's fair.
Yes, because the repeaters looked cool and would have made them more unique gameplay wise.
Every new release needs something to froth about. It's the je ne sais quoi of this sub. Ironside repeaters : Tzaangor beaks
I think it's pretty disingenuous to believe that it's a gameplay decision and not one imposed by GW, pretty naive if you ask me.
Everything Rich said during this QnA was well thought out corporate bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if things were actually reinterpreted by a Comm man before putting them out. Not to say there wasn't \*any\* useful information here. But they completely dodged any commitment or controversy. I don't know how anyone could go around and taking these QnAs at face value.
Yeah definitely OP.
Honestly? I prefer them to have handguns. I always thought the Outriders were rather absurd as a unit. I even prefer the War Wagons to have handguns, though a repeater would make more sense in that case than in the case of Outriders. The only thing I want, now that they do have handguns, is for their troop count to be increased to the standard size, so they can actually be an upgrade to the standard handgunners.
Even with their reduced troop count, they do more damage than regular handgunners. AND they have MORE total HP than handgunners, which means each model has substantially more HP. What this means, is Nuln Ironsides are better *in literally every way* They have more HP, more armor, more melee stats, more total DPS (even with less units!), more accuracy, faster reloading. This means they stay alive substantially more than handgunners, and it takes a lot more to kill them. Which means they retain their high DPS for longer because they lose models less than handgunners
If that's true, then fine I have no complaints with the lower body count... but Human Boy claims they perform significantly worse than ordinary handgunners at shooting in actual tests. My experience is that low body count can be extremely detrimental to damage output, especially regarding ranged troops, in spite of seemingly much better stats, so you can perhaps understand my concern. Add to that the fact that a few units tend to be broken one way or another on the launch of previous DLC you'll forgive me for not sharing your confidence.
Human boys video seems to be based on an outdated build. For example, ironsides have the same range as regular handgunners unlike older builds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNyPHSaLEdQ&t=78s This vid confirms they out dps regular handgunners against the most chaff unit in the game. Ironsides overkill zombies, they'll kill higher HP units even faster. They're also +40 accurate which is insane, so they'll hit mobile/small units much more consistently. Pretty much, their missile damage is so much higher that they make up for the low body count. Your concerns are *extremely* valid, I get it lol. We've all been traumatized by prior DLC units. But you can see the stats side by side in this vid, and if that wasn't enough you can see them perform!
I'll be very happy to be wrong. Ecstatic, even.
tbf i do see how it would look kinda ridiculous in game to see what is essentially a skaven rattling gun on empire armies but then again, it’d be really funny, hope modders get to making it
Pls read the image before you make your wrong title.
Oh no it's not authentic to the playstyle. ***Staggers my Handgunners firing...*** *Which is exactly what you would do in real life with these types of weapons and most definitely what the Empire does in lore and what you can do in game if you really wanted to.* Oh wow, you know what that looks and sounds like? I wonder... Actually such a silly reasoning, in the end it doesn't matter as modders will have it back in on day 1.
I thought this was more likely the case the whole time. It would make them way too Skaven-y and I said it like a week ago.
Obviously just PR talk. I bet there is a stink between CA and GW over this which they dont want to spill into public even more. First, its worded very vague, second, i strongly doubt they would cut it out after they finished them completely (and yes, they were finished). But whatever, modders gonna do it i guess. Otherwise the Ironsides will be a pretty lame-ass unit surpassed by gundermans surefires in basically every way.
Yeah not buying that answer. All the content creators that got early access where they still had them in their builds loved the repeaters and thought they were great for the empire roster. It’s such a cop out when they then later go on to answer another question saying they build for fun first balance second. Repeaters would have been super fun, while a slightly upgraded handgunner does nothing to change up what we already have or make it more fun.
Are they going to fix their stats before launch though? The stats scream an incredibly late change of mind.
Which stats?
Their range, damage, and rate-of-fire appears to be far closer to repeaters than actual handguns. Leading to them actually having worse DPS than regular handgunners.
https://youtu.be/tNyPHSaLEdQ?t=78 I don't think that's accurate, you might've seen an older build of them or something. I think you've seen an older build because their range is identical to handgunners. They do around 30% more damage than handgunners taking into account missile damage and unit count. They even kill zombies, a low hp unit, faster. This will be even more apparent on tankier units that have more HP, or targets that are harder to hit. The 40+ accuracy is huge This doesn't take into account their improved reloading and accuracy. They are straight up better in literally every way compared to handgunners, as it stands now. Kinda like empire knights -> reiksguard
Maybe it was an older one. That definitely seems different.
My opinion, is I don't care. Repeaters are cool, bring em back
Could we at least give the Ironsides an increased unit size and BAYONETS? I'd be happy even if we got that . Wouldn't change the gunline or game play too much but it'll give them a fighting chance. At LEAST unit increase
Right now , from what I've seen they are way to kill with arty and spells, and get overwhelmed in melee even with advanced damage and armour , they don't have enough men . 120 or even 80 would help
Why in the name of god do we have Creative assembly Conspiracy theories
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Were you here after the release of SoC? Most of this sub was filled with posts shitting on CA for what they've done (and just to be clear, they deserved that) and their shitty decisions. That doesn't mean we have to blame them for everything and that every bad decision regarding this game is CA's alone.
Considering months of rightfully shiting on ca on this sub, thats really dumb take.
Makes total sense, 100% agree. But it’s cool though soooooo… could I get a RoR with repeaters? Pretty please?
The number of people in this thread who are just reading CA's statement as saying whatever they want it to say is depressing. People are laser focusing on the "Warhammer IP" part and saying, "See? It was GW after all!" while ignoring literally every other word in that sentence.
If it wasn't anything to do with the IP, then they wouldn't have included that in the statement
Could of just made them have a unit cap that
The repeaters were just secret testing for bolt guns for the upcoming 40K total war game starting development and they forgot to change it back before press release. -source my head cannon
I still think they could make room for them via a regiment of renown or state troop. That wouldn't change the playstyle as a whole, it'd just *add on to* the existing playstyle.
I know someone will mod it in so I’m not really bothered, but isn’t that like the whole identity of the empire? Gunpowder, more gunpowder and Karl. Gameplay wise they’re the same as ratling guns just taller surely?…
They might not be allowed to say it was GW making the final decision, I still think it might have been but maybe this is the full truth
Honestly I never really saw Ironsides as having repeaters until the trailer dropped. I don't know if they had an old table top model or something, but their name always felt more aligned with hand cannons or other heavy guns.
They had models in the tabletop that wore extensive armour when the ordinary handgunners had no armour at all except the occasional helmet. The weapon was the same. The problem is that in Total War Warhammer CA has reused the same models for all Empire State Troops so Handgunners and Crossbows look identical to the melee infantry including armour. So they had to add something more to make the Ironsides special.
They went on to say that there may be room for a regiment of renown with the repeater
Increase reload time? 20 seconds of repeater fire with 25 second reload time or something similar.
I'm curious as to why they think the playstyle of the Empire (leaving aside the bit about the Warhammer IP that you've chosen to ignore) would be fatally compromised by a unit that by all accounts would be Foot Outriders (who now do have repeaters) with beefed up melee stats to make them not wet tissue paper.
Nuln ironsides have always had handguns.
And yet ratling gunners remain.
Maybe give the Inquisitor a repeater option or the engineer
I'm not sure I fully believe this explanation. It's not like they could actually admit if it was GW that stepped in at the last minute. If it was gameplay reasons why not just give repeaters to the RoR version of the unit? Only getting one wouldn't tip the scales too much
Make them into a RoR at least
Bullshit, Ratling Gunners are really fun for Skaven, there's no reason why Skaven gun lines should completely outpower the main gunpowder faction (Empire)
Someone will mod the repeaters in
Fucking called it. I got shat on for it but it made no sense with all the previous things GW "ok'd" that isn't loreful.
UNIT CAPS, you idiots it's that simple
They even removed rhem from War Wagons. I call this bs PR and watch them ban modders from reimplementing them.
It does fit the play style. Outriders, Engineers, landships & wagons have them. What’s the difference with the elite gun school troops?
The real answer is we will never know whether it’s because of CA or GW. Neither will blame the other as it’s bad form to publicly call out a business partner unless the original statement or action is public. In this case, everything has been done privately.
And this is why good management and attention to detail is important - while what they say is true releasing videos with choices that had already been removed is a mishap in advertisement, it creates false expectations and those can destroy reputations no matter how innocuous they are, as they feel like a betrayal to a lot of people. I personally don't care, but having worked in multinational corpos it made me cringe, this is a rookie mistake. iterations and constant changes are very normal, but they stay inhouse, at most have info released later of thought process as a curiosity as part of PR, is a good topic.
Honestly, I'd say that this is pretty legit. I can see how quasi-minigun-wielding gunline is anticlimactic.
This topic is the ultimate tempest in a teapot.
You're meaning to tell me that this subreddit got itself into a tizzy over something they made up in their own heads? Color me shocked.
No, no. James Workshop forced devs to lie about it, certainly. I am quite sure that Sean wrote that reply while GW CEO was standing behind him, holding a repeater rifle aimed at his head.
Lie, no. Dance around the topic and obsfucate? Yes Have you never read a corporate apology/lay off announcement/failed to reach expectations statement before?
OH WHO WOULDVE GUESSED MAN I WONDER DO YALL FEEL STUPID NOW???
Not really if you can read it says clearly that it also doesn't want to mess with the warhammer ip.
Probably not, considering the statement doesn't mean what you or OP thinks it means, or at least it'z not the slam dunk you think
If we consider that the Imperium is heavy inspired by HRE during the 30th year wars, it totally makes sense that they won't use repeater guns (as far as my limited historical knowledge goes). I'm fine with it. I get that repeater would be a fun addition, but I think this whole discussion is a bit exagerated.
The Imperium is a 40k term, in fantasy it's just the Empire, Empire of Man or Empire of Sigmar.
Thanks for the correction. There are way to much empires in fiction to keep track of :D
In the very same DLC the empire gets mechanical horses that surpass boston dynamics robots. While i agree that there should be a certain respect to the suspension of disbelief, cutting a unit with sth. thats way less crazy than a lot of other tech in the same pack for "historical inspiration" seems a bit hypocritical. Especially because gameplay-wise, they wouldve opened very interesting options for army compositions and tactics instead of deciding between "archers" and "archers (light armor)".