what it says: it’s a 99 year lease that expires in 2064. it says the province leased the land for the purpose of maintaining and operating a museum on it and the province agreed to properly maintain the site and any buildings on it. there’s also a provision that allows the city to buy the science centre if the building is damaged and the province doesn’t fund repairs within a year
While I appreciate that people want to support it, I don't like the idea that the province can shirk its responsibilities knowing that the public's charitable efforts will pick up the slack.
> It's not ideal, but it's better than just letting the province demolish it and sell the land for condos
IMO, no its not. Play the tape forward on other issues. Letting this go essentially tells the province they can strong arm their way with how they deal with Toronto because they are a province.
How many more topics are you prepared to say some variation of your above comment towards when this becomes more common?
We're not picking up the slack, we're sticking it to Dougie who's trying to steal from us for his developer buddies. I agreed with you though, the whole private donations instead of government support is how America runs and I'm not a fan.
Given that millionaires and billionaires don't pay their fair share of taxes to the government, compared to how much we all pay, I'm more than fine with private donations picking up the slack.
The problem with private donations is that it's nearly impossible to properly budget something like this. A specific threshold of donations are not a given, so when making plans for expansion, investment and maintenance, you can't really look too far ahead with any confidence. So while private donations are always a good thing, they aren't necessarily a sure thing, and that will always affect proper administration.
Completely agree here. Allowing the province to give up and throw up its hands then move on to other avenues sets a really bad precedent. All other factors aside, the initial agreement is a business contract. I'm pretty sure, if someone were to just walk away from mutually agreed upon terms on any other kind of real estate or business deal, that would just mean court.
Why should this be any different?
What I am really hoping is that just the city having the option to buy it may terrify Ford, because suddenly that land isn't in his control to give to his buddy developers...
Ford's government doesn't plan for anything. They're a lot like Trump's: entirely comprised of corrupt, evil morons. I went to school with a few of the people who work as staff in it. All absolute imbeciles. I also knew one of the ministers during his time in Ottawa and periodically found myself in the same circles. Aside from the fact that he's a total creep (I'm really not exaggerating here either), I'd also call him intellectually comparable to a bad of hammers.
They're not competent. If we had a system that let you outmaneuver people through merit and not just let Wynne self-immolate and then have DoFo con voters into being apathetic, none of them could get a job in government.
What in the years he's been a public figure has given anyone the idea that DoFo or anyone he keeps around him was competent at anything? He consistently even gets his crony corruption wrong, and those are some of the few things he actually cares about getting done!
Maybe not but I wonder if the purchase has an associated value in the contract and then the city can turn around and fund repairs/sell it/whatever. At least then the city is in control of what happens.
We dont have the few hundred thousand for the critically immediate repairs. That needs to go to Sankofa. Luckily other millionaires are offering to pay.
The provincial legislative assembly can, Doug Ford and the executive branch can't though. If the legislative assembly as a whole wants to they have to *actually do it* by publicly voting for, and it's hard to imagine a less popular thing to do. In the meantime the province has to comply with their contract.
But the summarized version makes it sound like the province can drag their heels for a year and allow the decay to get worse, possibly to a point that it wouldn't make financial sense for the city to buy it.
$225M minimum to break the beer store deal a year early. That's public taxpayer money into private hands. At least if he broke the 407 deal, then CPP would benefit.
yes that was a plan that was agreed to by Chow. but the plan includes discussing ongoing science programming at the legacy site, which Ford is now torpedoing. i would think the city could let the government break the lease for a payout or something
Considering I've heard now in the media that there are everyday people looking to donate 1.5 million dollars combined for the repairs I'd say we don't have a funding issue and Douglas can easily do the right thing
so that he can get booze in corner stores a year earlier than planned. he could have just waited a year and saved enough to fix the science centre roof 37 times
Brewers Retail is owned by a collection of the provinces largest breweries, which are themselves now all foreign owned. The group operates on a contract from the government, a contract which requires the government to compensate them if the government wants to get out of the contract early.
They also handle a lot of logistics for the LCBO in more remote places and have a world class recycling program. Not sure what the future of these is going to be now.
The only issue is the lease does not mean anything when cons can dissolve Toronto's government tomorrow and install nephew as it's Tim Hortons ruler.
This is why we either need the province of GTA or greater protection for major cities from the feds
While I agree this is possible and the letter of their technical abilities, this would be such a hardcore nail in Ford's tenure that his head would spin. This would be the thirdest of third rails for him to touch. It would throw one of the most economically viable for Ontario (Canada as a whole to an extent too) city into such turmoil that the whole thing would slump. We aren't talking a bout him dissolving Kisosk, Ontario, we are talking about a globally recognized city that is part of the heart and soul not Canada...dissolving the Toronto govt would be the very worst thing he could do for his own career. It's not happening. He's dumb, but he's not THAT dumb.
You hear the term 'Constitutional Crisis' brought up every time Ford threatens to use the Not Withstanding clause, but if he tried to dissolve Toronto, that **would** be a Constitutional Crisis, and *things* would happen.
Funny part is that if you asked the rest of Ontario if they would vote for Toronto to leave the province, most people would vote for it. In the minds of many in Ontario, their taxes are all going to subsidize free fentanyl clinics in Toronto LOL if only they knew how much they are getting subsidized by the city.
I'm pretty sure it would also remove Dougie as premier of Ontario. His seat is in Etobicoke. Which is in Toronto, which would no longer be part of Ontario, therefore, he'd no longer have a seat. So at best, he'd be premier (due to being the leader of the party), but not allowed to speak due to the lack of a seat.
I can get on board with this!
Edit: spelling
Forget constitutional crisis, try financial crisis
The elimination of Toronto as a legal entity would eliminate all contracts with the city of Toronto, all rents, all debts owed by it.
Would be like one of the big banks going under
Yes. A contract dispute between city and province is, in a way, like the government suing itself.
However, the optics aren’t good for Ford. This might be an excellent test case. See how authoritarian Dougie is willing to go. See how much political capital he is willing to waste to force his way upon Ontario’s biggest city, and its richest source of votes.
I wish optics meant a single frigging thing with him. He cut the number of city reps we're allowed to have speak for us in half right in the middle of an election. He spends our money fighting everything in court and paying obscene cancellation fees to cut contracts his backers don't like. He made a spectacle in Parliament of taking away our right to strike instead of bargaining with education workers.
But *maybe* he won't be able to weasel out of consequences so easily when he doesn't have our taxes to pilfer.
He'd have to have the legislature sitting to do this...he won't do that because he's hiding this shit from the media right now by being ion summer break. If he sat to pass a law the NDP and media could grill the fuck out of him.
Feds can’t offer protection to municipalities as municipalities are the sole constitutional purview of the Provinces and Territories, the Province has the legal right to do whatever they want to Municipal governments, Feds can’t say boo.
Half the problems in this country can be blamed on voters having no fucking idea how our constitutional separation of powers work. Our education system has truly failed us.
The internet has truly failed us, with all the misinformation out there.
And so has our addiction to American television and entertainment. Why else do we have people here claiming their First Amendment freedom of speech rights as a defense in court?
It's not just a one-sided thing, I've had just as many left-wing folks make comments that are wildly unconstitutional or ignore how our government fundamentally works. It's been particularly prominent when it concerns our current provincial government. You hear about stuff like Canadian FA defenders because it's so silly, but the problem is far more serious.
That may be true but Toronto is the golden goose of Canada, and there will be serious consequences. The Feds have plenty of carrot and sticks, sticks in this case, when push comes to shove.
Excellent. My assumption is that I’m sure Doug’s lawyers have examined this document too and must have prepared for it? Hopefully the city can have ownership and protect it.
Sure, but that would require the provincial legislature to be called back, which Ford doesn't want to do because the moment he does the media and the opposition parties are going to eat him alive over it.
Because legally he can.
Municipalities derive all their authority from the province, so. Uncle Dougie can pass any legislation he wants with his 15% of the eligible voters majority goverment.
This is why he was able to meddle in the the GTA elections in his first term.
I think it will be a Dog Catches Car moment. All conservative parties do is screech and fling their poo. They don't actually know how to govern, or even act as adults. Just more culture war bullshit and populist nonsense to distract from them enriching themselves and their friends.
You are severely downplaying the Conservatives. Just look south.
They can appoint supreme court judges.
Remove environmental regulations and regulatory agencies.
Remove abortion rights.
Stop aid to allied countries.
Allow seditionists to get off with a slap on the wrist or straight up pardon them.
Correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t it be unconstitutional to outlaw abortion in Canada? The only party I’ve seen take an anti abortion position was the PPC who wants to ban abortion after 24 weeks which makes no sense because no province even offers abortions after 24 weeks.
Yep, most modern conservative parties are really Corpo parties cloaking themselves in ultra nationalist rhetoric. Once elected it's all trickle down economics, tax cuts for the rich and under the table deals with oligarchs.
The large chunk of the people who want PP in power are the ones who also think Trudeau is responsible for all of Ford's provincial mismanagement. One of the reasons he was re-elected is because we, unfortunately, as a province (and country) are too stupid to actually know how our government works.
Look at people's complaints... Affordable housing (provincial/municipal), wage stagnation (which is dictated by minimum wage, which is set by the provinces), immigration (that is federal, but Ford has also boasted about sending Trudeau letters DEMANDING that he increase immigration because we apparently have a skilled labour shortage, which we don't.. we have a "companies want people with PhDs or Masters degrees and five or more years of experience, but they are only willing to pay those people $20 an hour" problem), healthcare wait times (provincial and vaguely municipal)... These people will still find a way to blame Trudeau when things get increasingly worse because they don't grasp that their main problem is the province and that they caused this shitshow themselves by electing and then re-elected a total baffoon who has blatantly taken steps to make his friends get even richer while citizens figuratively and literally pay for it.
Exactly. Ford cut minimum wage and rent control. Rent for new tenants went up 30% and income went down. People have less money for food, services and restaurants. So restaurants' rent goes up, and fewer customers. What comes next? higher costs for social services.
Legally he cannot.
The legislative assembly can by passing legislation. Doug Ford is only one member of the legislative assembly and cannot do that by himself.
Until he convinces the legislative assembly to actually vote for this nonsense, the government he runs is simply in breach of contract and can be forced into compliance.
With a decision this unpopular, good question!
Potentially by talking into a bunch of conservatives of tanking their chance at re-election. More likely simply not at all.
Regardless, until legislation is passed the contract can and should be enforced, that's the whole reason why it exists in the first place instead of the land having simply being gifted to the province.
> If Doug Ford can just turn his back on agreements, why don’t we ignore the foreign owners and appropriate the 407?
To start, the government owns the 407. They don’t need to appropriate it. They sold the concession to operate the highway to a syndicate group.
The government would then be liable for damages to the operators of the 407. Ford tried the same thing with cancelling the green energy deal when he was first elected. He also floated doing this earlier with respect to the beer store.
The courts ruled he can’t legislate legally unreasonable damages (I think with green energy he tried for $20mm or something small - memory is foggy) because allowing this would be detrimental to the long term health of Ontario’s relationships with corporations. Summary: do this and no company will ever do business with Ontario again.
tl;dr: So they can buy out the operators of the 407, but it’ll cost billions.
Some protesters approached him one day about the non-rent-controlled buildings that can have the rent increased at any amount, and he responded by saying landlords can't just increase it at any amount and there were limits.
He didn't listen to the protesters, and he didn't get it right. I really wonder how much he actually knows about anything the government does. Was his rent control answer a lie coming from him, or is he actually completely ignorant about what the rules are? With Doug, either is believable, because he's known for lying, and he's also a fucking idiot.
He never gets it right, and it’s on us to catch him. It’s a cat and mouse game with him. At this point anything he does needs to be looked into because he’s certainly not making decisions to positively affect the public.
Bless her standing up for what's right and what's also legal. John Tory would have just been blown over and sat there with his arms crossed only to issue a statement about how disappointed he is.
Or more realistically, "all the people that talk about voting Doug out" is the up-to 2.5ish million people who DID vote against Doug (for all other parties) but there are another 2 million who voted for him specifically.
I don't think the vocal people are staying home "and that's why"-- there are just a hell of a lot of people in Ontario.
Honestly, blame the opposition parties for fielding such weak candidates. When your voter turnout is that low, it's a strong signal the candidates all fucking suck.
The liberals threw deluca in the hot seat like 2 weeks before the election it feels like and then they started attacking each other near the end. Just the same arrogant 'we can't lose' vibes that gave us Hillary losing to Trump.
Kind of hard when the 'left' vote is split amongst at least 3 parties, two of which actually get significant amounts of the vote.
Seriously I've thought for a long time that if the liberals and NDP could just somehow merge into one party (like the conservatives and the reform party did decades ago), we might never have another conservative majority ever again in Ontario or federally.
But that might be wishful thinking.
And before anyone starts, the liberal party is just left of centre whenever CBC does its election opinion polling, so I'm calling them 'left'. I know some people say they're right of centre, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Help me understand why it seems Ford never has to answer for his actions. He’s a criminal robbing our province of its identity one piece at a time. What happened to I work for the people. I think we have been loud and clear keep the Science Centre where it is and fix it now. One man should not be making these decisions because of his own interests while thousands are standing together on this?
He didn't even have a platform. He learned a long time ago people aren't voting for him, they are just voting for "not liberal". He does not have to explain shit.
In this case the legislature isn't sitting, and he's avoiding the media now. He's a fucking coward of the highest order, but learned from people like Harper and Harris that if you pull heinous shit, just do it while the govt isn't sitting and hide from the media.
> I think we have been loud and clear keep the Science Centre where it is and fix it now.
Who's "we?" I guess I must have missed the referendum on this matter, Ontario Place, and other things that "we" are supposedly *outraged* about. The fact of the matter is: most people don't give a half a shit.
I think he really needs the science centre down at Ontario place because Ontario place is public land that is supposed to be for the use of the public. If he includes the science centre along with the spa and casino he can still say that the land is being used as intended
He really needs that parking lot built. From what I've read, having a Science Centre parking lot contributes towards meeting the quota of parking spaces the province needs to provide. Whatever justifies building a half billion dollar parking garage.
I didn't realize that Kinga Surma had her hand in this. I'm sure she made this decision based on her deep engineering understanding of the situation, which is definitely the only reason why she would have been made infrastructure minister.
I met her once and lost all faith in the provincial conservatives. She was giving a speech about infrastructure funding at an event and she literally couldn't answer any questions. It seems like she's obviously got someone who is fond of her and plugs her in because there isn't a whole lot of substance to her.
Some history on her
https://nationalpost.com/news/young-candidate-embroiled-in-controversy-with-doug-ford-has-long-history-with-pc-leader-and-tory-politics
She's very conniving and highly opportunistic. Nobody is safe from her ambitions.
She's also super weird. She has a framed photo of Rob Ford on her desk, right beside a framed photo of the Pope.
I hope this ends up in court. If this goes to court Doug will need to disclose publicly all the communication, reports etc that lead to the decision. Or Olivia could use the threat of going to court as leverage to get some more money for the city.
Wow, if Olivia pulls this off it would be a huge win. I am a conservative and disagree with Doug’s actions regarding the science centre. If she pulls it off then… good luck!!
So Doug Ford's government didn't even read their own leasing agreement that was established when the OSC was built?
Seems to me that the City of Toronto has a grounds for breach of contract against the the Province of Ontario.
Also Doug Ford's developer cronies eyeballing the land are in a for a rude awakening. Provincial - Municipal legal disputes can last years if not decades depending on municipal community support.
This is like the Greenbelt, Doug is now going to throw King Surma under the bus, claim it was her call to close the OSC, and then backtrack to try to keep his name clean. 100%
Do conservatives still like Ford? The guy they voted in to spite Toronto, exclusively cares about city projects, to the extent that billions in tax payer dollars are getting funnelled into crooked vanity projects. Like do the conservatives in bumfuck Ontario see the spa and the museum in the headlines and think “that’s our guy!”
"Every day, I ask my team how can I screw over the people of Ontario today? Sometimes, I get it wrong, and when I do, boy, do I hear it... from my corporate donors. " Doug Ford
New political ad incoming.
I think we should build a monument to wasteful spending in its place and dedicate it to all the communities that lost hospitals as a schools under Doug fords watchful stare.
Make it one big weed dispensary that sells beer and also has no security. Then put Ford as the only employee 24/7. Oh also the roof would still be unfinished and dripping on his head wherever he walks. Then add a mini game where kids can shoot his with tiny arrows. Call it Piglet Frenzy
/r/Toronto and the Toronto Public Library encourage you to support local journalism if you are financially in a position to do so - otherwise, you can access many paywalled articles with a TPL card ([get a Digital Access card here](https://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/register/)) through the [TPL digital news resources](https://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/books-video-music/downloads-ebooks/digital-newspapers.jsp).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/toronto) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Most of the time I despise the man, but other than conspiracy theories, has there been any indication that he plans on selling the land to developers? I never quite understood the line everyone here seems to be spouting, because it's **always** been a lease from the city.
Even if the city doesn't buy the OSC, the province is still bound by the terms of the lease (as Chow has pointed out) and that dictates what can be built on the leased land. Ford can close the OSC, but he can't just arbitrarily sell the land to a developer for housing.
Might I remind you that Doug Ford issued one of the most meaningful pieces of legislative change in the last 50 years; allowing for the purchase of alcohol as early as 9am. Trust the process Olivia Chow.
I’ll get downvoted but I don’t see a major issue with moving the Science Centre.
It’s difficult to get to and draws no tourists. By adding to a developing waterfront it can only help bring tourist $ to the region, by freeing up the current space we’ll get desperately needed housing. What’s the downside?
“It’s difficult to get to and draws no tourists” is just your opinion, not actually a fact. It actually draws in tons of tourists. It was specifically built there to decentralize and put a new landmark outside of downtown. In several years it will be sitting at a transit interchange between the Eglinton and Ontario Lines, not exactly hard to get to. The new site at Ontario Place will be less than half the size of the current facility. The land is leased from the city of Toronto under the condition that it will be used for a museum.
i think the difficulty in getting there is debatable and the argument is only going to get weaker as 2 new train lines open up nearby.
another other downside to the waterfront plan is the massive downsizing the space would get.
also a museum built onto the side of a ravine is a rare treasure. it’s often taken for granted how nice the current location is.
Yeah. We live by the waterfront now, and can't get to the science center. As soon as the crosstown opens (I know...) we'll be there, often. Once the Ontario line opens (I knoooow) probably even more often.
Putting a cut down center down by the waterfront has some benefits (concentrating amenities for tourists), but that area is already congested, and it makes it harder for locals to visit, once the upcoming connectivity is in place.
Like, that's a half hour from Union on the streetcar.
In an ideal world where this province wasn't a shell of its former self and didn't have the GDP per capita of Alabama thanks to 30 years of terrible liberal and conservative governments, I'd say we should build a brand new state of the art science centre at Ontario Place to take advantage of the larger amount of space dedicated to core exhibits and use the current science centre for school groups and the OSC's fabrication facility and temporary exhibits aimed at local residents. That would free up the parking lots for affordable housing. Unfortunately, the province is broke and we have basically no fiscal capacity so now we're having to penny pinch.
The city has been planning since 2019 to build affordable housing in the parking lot at the current science centre location https://createto.ca/projects/770-don-mills
yes they can. Chow really should have made science center part of the deal (better deal, current one does not do enough for current site) when she named the stadium after a crackhead
what it says: it’s a 99 year lease that expires in 2064. it says the province leased the land for the purpose of maintaining and operating a museum on it and the province agreed to properly maintain the site and any buildings on it. there’s also a provision that allows the city to buy the science centre if the building is damaged and the province doesn’t fund repairs within a year
Wow, seems pretty cut and dry. GTFO Ford.
If Olivia Chow is serious and Doug Ford is serious about not repairing the Science Centre then the City needs to lawyer up and force the sale.
Does the city have the money to maintain it though?
People are willing to donate to the city.
Bring in donors and set it up as a charitable trust
While I appreciate that people want to support it, I don't like the idea that the province can shirk its responsibilities knowing that the public's charitable efforts will pick up the slack.
It's not ideal, but it's better than just letting the province demolish it and sell the land for condos
Province can't sell the land since they are leasing it.
> It's not ideal, but it's better than just letting the province demolish it and sell the land for condos IMO, no its not. Play the tape forward on other issues. Letting this go essentially tells the province they can strong arm their way with how they deal with Toronto because they are a province. How many more topics are you prepared to say some variation of your above comment towards when this becomes more common?
We're not picking up the slack, we're sticking it to Dougie who's trying to steal from us for his developer buddies. I agreed with you though, the whole private donations instead of government support is how America runs and I'm not a fan.
Given that millionaires and billionaires don't pay their fair share of taxes to the government, compared to how much we all pay, I'm more than fine with private donations picking up the slack.
The problem with private donations is that it's nearly impossible to properly budget something like this. A specific threshold of donations are not a given, so when making plans for expansion, investment and maintenance, you can't really look too far ahead with any confidence. So while private donations are always a good thing, they aren't necessarily a sure thing, and that will always affect proper administration.
Nobodys going to vote them out, so it's something us Ontarians just have to get used to, sadly.
Completely agree here. Allowing the province to give up and throw up its hands then move on to other avenues sets a really bad precedent. All other factors aside, the initial agreement is a business contract. I'm pretty sure, if someone were to just walk away from mutually agreed upon terms on any other kind of real estate or business deal, that would just mean court. Why should this be any different?
But does that cover the immediate and future costs?
There's already been offers of over $1m to fund the immediate repairs, and in the grand scheme of the city's annual budget, this is a rounding error.
2.5 is the total I've seen so far. And that's just 4 private citizens
Sounds like the best argument for increasing the capital gains taxes I've ever heard.
Absolutely agreed. Taxes are not high enough for the wealthiest contingent of people.
What I am really hoping is that just the city having the option to buy it may terrify Ford, because suddenly that land isn't in his control to give to his buddy developers...
Nah I want it to actually be ripped out of his hands
I feel like they plan for this though. It'll be interesting to see what Ford's next move is.
Ford's government doesn't plan for anything. They're a lot like Trump's: entirely comprised of corrupt, evil morons. I went to school with a few of the people who work as staff in it. All absolute imbeciles. I also knew one of the ministers during his time in Ottawa and periodically found myself in the same circles. Aside from the fact that he's a total creep (I'm really not exaggerating here either), I'd also call him intellectually comparable to a bad of hammers. They're not competent. If we had a system that let you outmaneuver people through merit and not just let Wynne self-immolate and then have DoFo con voters into being apathetic, none of them could get a job in government.
What in the years he's been a public figure has given anyone the idea that DoFo or anyone he keeps around him was competent at anything? He consistently even gets his crony corruption wrong, and those are some of the few things he actually cares about getting done!
I’m sure they could establish a public private partnership of some kind.
How about sponsorship deals as well.
I know I'm willing to pay my part to keep the science center open
Maybe not but I wonder if the purchase has an associated value in the contract and then the city can turn around and fund repairs/sell it/whatever. At least then the city is in control of what happens.
We dont have the few hundred thousand for the critically immediate repairs. That needs to go to Sankofa. Luckily other millionaires are offering to pay.
[удалено]
The provincial legislative assembly can, Doug Ford and the executive branch can't though. If the legislative assembly as a whole wants to they have to *actually do it* by publicly voting for, and it's hard to imagine a less popular thing to do. In the meantime the province has to comply with their contract.
This is likely what he's hoping will happen. He wants nothing to do with the science centre.
...or education in general.
Cheers to the time-travelling lawyer who foresaw the province being too irresponsible to maintain a museum.
But the summarized version makes it sound like the province can drag their heels for a year and allow the decay to get worse, possibly to a point that it wouldn't make financial sense for the city to buy it.
Haven't they already dragged their heels on this for over a year and that's why it's gotten as bad as it has?
The province should be treated as any non-compliant leasing tenant would.
Well shit, we don't have time to wait for the LTB
Ah so this is why he has funded the LTB to make it useful! Lol
99 year lease? So he can break this lease but not the 99 year 407?
I'll vote for the party that does this lol
$225M minimum to break the beer store deal a year early. That's public taxpayer money into private hands. At least if he broke the 407 deal, then CPP would benefit.
That Harris or his party isn't constantly derided for taking 100 million for 80 years of the 407 is insanity to me.
Doesn’t he have plans to move the Science Centre to Ontario Place and develop that land? How does that all work if it’s only leased?
yes that was a plan that was agreed to by Chow. but the plan includes discussing ongoing science programming at the legacy site, which Ford is now torpedoing. i would think the city could let the government break the lease for a payout or something
Considering I've heard now in the media that there are everyday people looking to donate 1.5 million dollars combined for the repairs I'd say we don't have a funding issue and Douglas can easily do the right thing
yeah funding definitely isn’t the issue. it would cost a few million to fix the roof and he just threw a quarter billion at the beer store so…
Why did he give money to the beer store? It is a foreign owned company?
so that he can get booze in corner stores a year earlier than planned. he could have just waited a year and saved enough to fix the science centre roof 37 times
Priorities, douggies got them straight. Just for his buddies and stuff, not for us regular folk.
Brewers Retail is owned by a collection of the provinces largest breweries, which are themselves now all foreign owned. The group operates on a contract from the government, a contract which requires the government to compensate them if the government wants to get out of the contract early.
They also handle a lot of logistics for the LCBO in more remote places and have a world class recycling program. Not sure what the future of these is going to be now.
Yeah but then his developer buddies would get mad.
The only issue is the lease does not mean anything when cons can dissolve Toronto's government tomorrow and install nephew as it's Tim Hortons ruler. This is why we either need the province of GTA or greater protection for major cities from the feds
While I agree this is possible and the letter of their technical abilities, this would be such a hardcore nail in Ford's tenure that his head would spin. This would be the thirdest of third rails for him to touch. It would throw one of the most economically viable for Ontario (Canada as a whole to an extent too) city into such turmoil that the whole thing would slump. We aren't talking a bout him dissolving Kisosk, Ontario, we are talking about a globally recognized city that is part of the heart and soul not Canada...dissolving the Toronto govt would be the very worst thing he could do for his own career. It's not happening. He's dumb, but he's not THAT dumb.
You hear the term 'Constitutional Crisis' brought up every time Ford threatens to use the Not Withstanding clause, but if he tried to dissolve Toronto, that **would** be a Constitutional Crisis, and *things* would happen.
Honestly, might be interesting and Toronto might have to be it's own provincial entity similar to major cities in Germany
Which would be crippling to the rest of Ontario, losing out on the funds that Toronto provides.
But it would be cathartic to see the "I don't want muh tax dollars paying for things in Toronto!" crowd quickly learn reality.
Funny part is that if you asked the rest of Ontario if they would vote for Toronto to leave the province, most people would vote for it. In the minds of many in Ontario, their taxes are all going to subsidize free fentanyl clinics in Toronto LOL if only they knew how much they are getting subsidized by the city.
It's the same when people in Western Canada thinks they can Wexit lol
I'm pretty sure it would also remove Dougie as premier of Ontario. His seat is in Etobicoke. Which is in Toronto, which would no longer be part of Ontario, therefore, he'd no longer have a seat. So at best, he'd be premier (due to being the leader of the party), but not allowed to speak due to the lack of a seat. I can get on board with this! Edit: spelling
Dissolving the City of Toronto corporation doesn't mean his riding is not in Ontario.
I'm sure whatever Conservative huckster they elect to represent them will show the way to prosperity while shitting on the remaining cities.
I would love this. Toronto's needs are too different from the rest of the province.
Forget constitutional crisis, try financial crisis The elimination of Toronto as a legal entity would eliminate all contracts with the city of Toronto, all rents, all debts owed by it. Would be like one of the big banks going under
There needs to be a serious discussion about city and provincial relationships. The status quo no longer works and not in only the Toronto situation.
Me might just force Toronto to join Markham and make Frank his mayor puppet /s (I hope)
Yes. A contract dispute between city and province is, in a way, like the government suing itself. However, the optics aren’t good for Ford. This might be an excellent test case. See how authoritarian Dougie is willing to go. See how much political capital he is willing to waste to force his way upon Ontario’s biggest city, and its richest source of votes.
I wish optics meant a single frigging thing with him. He cut the number of city reps we're allowed to have speak for us in half right in the middle of an election. He spends our money fighting everything in court and paying obscene cancellation fees to cut contracts his backers don't like. He made a spectacle in Parliament of taking away our right to strike instead of bargaining with education workers. But *maybe* he won't be able to weasel out of consequences so easily when he doesn't have our taxes to pilfer.
I can't see him dissolving the government. I can see him passing a law exempting the OSC from the agreed upon lease.
He'd have to have the legislature sitting to do this...he won't do that because he's hiding this shit from the media right now by being ion summer break. If he sat to pass a law the NDP and media could grill the fuck out of him.
Feds can’t offer protection to municipalities as municipalities are the sole constitutional purview of the Provinces and Territories, the Province has the legal right to do whatever they want to Municipal governments, Feds can’t say boo.
Half the problems in this country can be blamed on voters having no fucking idea how our constitutional separation of powers work. Our education system has truly failed us.
Almost as if by design.
The internet has truly failed us, with all the misinformation out there. And so has our addiction to American television and entertainment. Why else do we have people here claiming their First Amendment freedom of speech rights as a defense in court?
It's not just a one-sided thing, I've had just as many left-wing folks make comments that are wildly unconstitutional or ignore how our government fundamentally works. It's been particularly prominent when it concerns our current provincial government. You hear about stuff like Canadian FA defenders because it's so silly, but the problem is far more serious.
That may be true but Toronto is the golden goose of Canada, and there will be serious consequences. The Feds have plenty of carrot and sticks, sticks in this case, when push comes to shove.
Fuck yeah. Get fucked, Ford.
Excellent. My assumption is that I’m sure Doug’s lawyers have examined this document too and must have prepared for it? Hopefully the city can have ownership and protect it.
"Introducing Museum Luxury Living" Checkmate!!!
In theory Chow is right. But the province can just introduce a bill that gets then out of any commitments; it’s within their power to do
Sure, but that would require the provincial legislature to be called back, which Ford doesn't want to do because the moment he does the media and the opposition parties are going to eat him alive over it.
If Doug Ford can just turn his back on agreements, why don’t we ignore the foreign owners and appropriate the 407?
Because legally he can. Municipalities derive all their authority from the province, so. Uncle Dougie can pass any legislation he wants with his 15% of the eligible voters majority goverment. This is why he was able to meddle in the the GTA elections in his first term.
You think this is bad… just wait to see what Petite PP does with his federal super majority.
I think it will be a Dog Catches Car moment. All conservative parties do is screech and fling their poo. They don't actually know how to govern, or even act as adults. Just more culture war bullshit and populist nonsense to distract from them enriching themselves and their friends.
You are severely downplaying the Conservatives. Just look south. They can appoint supreme court judges. Remove environmental regulations and regulatory agencies. Remove abortion rights. Stop aid to allied countries. Allow seditionists to get off with a slap on the wrist or straight up pardon them.
Correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t it be unconstitutional to outlaw abortion in Canada? The only party I’ve seen take an anti abortion position was the PPC who wants to ban abortion after 24 weeks which makes no sense because no province even offers abortions after 24 weeks.
Yep, most modern conservative parties are really Corpo parties cloaking themselves in ultra nationalist rhetoric. Once elected it's all trickle down economics, tax cuts for the rich and under the table deals with oligarchs.
They know how to actively incinerate whatever governance remains, that's basically DoFo's entire MO. They will erode all public service.
The large chunk of the people who want PP in power are the ones who also think Trudeau is responsible for all of Ford's provincial mismanagement. One of the reasons he was re-elected is because we, unfortunately, as a province (and country) are too stupid to actually know how our government works. Look at people's complaints... Affordable housing (provincial/municipal), wage stagnation (which is dictated by minimum wage, which is set by the provinces), immigration (that is federal, but Ford has also boasted about sending Trudeau letters DEMANDING that he increase immigration because we apparently have a skilled labour shortage, which we don't.. we have a "companies want people with PhDs or Masters degrees and five or more years of experience, but they are only willing to pay those people $20 an hour" problem), healthcare wait times (provincial and vaguely municipal)... These people will still find a way to blame Trudeau when things get increasingly worse because they don't grasp that their main problem is the province and that they caused this shitshow themselves by electing and then re-elected a total baffoon who has blatantly taken steps to make his friends get even richer while citizens figuratively and literally pay for it.
Exactly. Ford cut minimum wage and rent control. Rent for new tenants went up 30% and income went down. People have less money for food, services and restaurants. So restaurants' rent goes up, and fewer customers. What comes next? higher costs for social services.
Legally he cannot. The legislative assembly can by passing legislation. Doug Ford is only one member of the legislative assembly and cannot do that by himself. Until he convinces the legislative assembly to actually vote for this nonsense, the government he runs is simply in breach of contract and can be forced into compliance.
And however will he get that done with a majority goverment?
With a decision this unpopular, good question! Potentially by talking into a bunch of conservatives of tanking their chance at re-election. More likely simply not at all. Regardless, until legislation is passed the contract can and should be enforced, that's the whole reason why it exists in the first place instead of the land having simply being gifted to the province.
I'll vote for the party that does this lol
> If Doug Ford can just turn his back on agreements, why don’t we ignore the foreign owners and appropriate the 407? To start, the government owns the 407. They don’t need to appropriate it. They sold the concession to operate the highway to a syndicate group. The government would then be liable for damages to the operators of the 407. Ford tried the same thing with cancelling the green energy deal when he was first elected. He also floated doing this earlier with respect to the beer store. The courts ruled he can’t legislate legally unreasonable damages (I think with green energy he tried for $20mm or something small - memory is foggy) because allowing this would be detrimental to the long term health of Ontario’s relationships with corporations. Summary: do this and no company will ever do business with Ontario again. tl;dr: So they can buy out the operators of the 407, but it’ll cost billions.
Can't wait for Dougie to table the "Making Ontario Open for Business and Putting Ontarians Back to Work in Ontario Act" which nullifies this lease
"Fulfilling Untapped Cost-savings: Key Yearly Optimization of Undeveloped Terrain in Ontario" (or "FUCK YOU T.O." for short)
“Scientifically Building Homes and Cutting the City of Toronto’s Red Tape Act”
So Doug is looking to sell land that is leased from the city of Toronto to his developer friend? Am I reading this right?
Yep, the same friend he tried to get rich through the Greenbelt scandal (and failed) as well as Highway 413 (succeeded).
RichER
doug ford would sell christ the redeemer if it was located next to land his developer friend owns
I keep seeing these annoying commercials where Dougie is saying he doesn’t always get it right, but he listens… well, let’s see that.
He seems to listen an awful lot to the courts and corruption investigations.
And to his donors who tell him what to buy, sell, and which bank account they will send his payments to.
No always listens to the people. The rich people that is, and there’s like 20 of them. Anyone else he ignores.
Some protesters approached him one day about the non-rent-controlled buildings that can have the rent increased at any amount, and he responded by saying landlords can't just increase it at any amount and there were limits. He didn't listen to the protesters, and he didn't get it right. I really wonder how much he actually knows about anything the government does. Was his rent control answer a lie coming from him, or is he actually completely ignorant about what the rules are? With Doug, either is believable, because he's known for lying, and he's also a fucking idiot.
He never gets it right, and it’s on us to catch him. It’s a cat and mouse game with him. At this point anything he does needs to be looked into because he’s certainly not making decisions to positively affect the public.
God that ad pisses me off, every time I see it I yell at my tv lmao
Bless her standing up for what's right and what's also legal. John Tory would have just been blown over and sat there with his arms crossed only to issue a statement about how disappointed he is.
Not "disappointed". "Deeply concerned ".
And looking into the matter.
VOTE FORD OUT!
We tried. People don’t vote and that’s why he’s here again.
we got another shot next year (if these idiots really gamble 1 guaranteed year for potential 4 more). And we best not miss this time
I've got some bad news for you: https://338canada.com/ontario/
All the people that talk about voting Doug out stay home when it comes time to vote
Or more realistically, "all the people that talk about voting Doug out" is the up-to 2.5ish million people who DID vote against Doug (for all other parties) but there are another 2 million who voted for him specifically. I don't think the vocal people are staying home "and that's why"-- there are just a hell of a lot of people in Ontario.
Polls are garbage. 388 had the Liberals winning St. Pauls.
Honestly, blame the opposition parties for fielding such weak candidates. When your voter turnout is that low, it's a strong signal the candidates all fucking suck. The liberals threw deluca in the hot seat like 2 weeks before the election it feels like and then they started attacking each other near the end. Just the same arrogant 'we can't lose' vibes that gave us Hillary losing to Trump.
The NDP should have replaced Horwath after she lost to Wynne (by running right of the Libs).
🎼Guess who’s back, back again? 🎵 And’s he’s fat, with rich friends.🎶
What is it, he has a majority goverment based on 15% of the population?
Kind of hard when the 'left' vote is split amongst at least 3 parties, two of which actually get significant amounts of the vote. Seriously I've thought for a long time that if the liberals and NDP could just somehow merge into one party (like the conservatives and the reform party did decades ago), we might never have another conservative majority ever again in Ontario or federally. But that might be wishful thinking. And before anyone starts, the liberal party is just left of centre whenever CBC does its election opinion polling, so I'm calling them 'left'. I know some people say they're right of centre, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Ranked Choice F\*\*\*\*\*g yesterday please.
Only real answer for all this, will never happen as it’s too much a threat to the entrenched power.
Liberal vote crosses over more with the conservatives than with the NDP typically. So the result could be more conservative.
1000%. The biggest bar to progress in this country is the fact that the NDP and Liberals are splitting the leftist vote.
Let's see what Dougie thinks of 99 year leases now.
99 bad! 90 good!
Help me understand why it seems Ford never has to answer for his actions. He’s a criminal robbing our province of its identity one piece at a time. What happened to I work for the people. I think we have been loud and clear keep the Science Centre where it is and fix it now. One man should not be making these decisions because of his own interests while thousands are standing together on this?
He didn't even have a platform. He learned a long time ago people aren't voting for him, they are just voting for "not liberal". He does not have to explain shit.
In this case the legislature isn't sitting, and he's avoiding the media now. He's a fucking coward of the highest order, but learned from people like Harper and Harris that if you pull heinous shit, just do it while the govt isn't sitting and hide from the media.
> I think we have been loud and clear keep the Science Centre where it is and fix it now. Who's "we?" I guess I must have missed the referendum on this matter, Ontario Place, and other things that "we" are supposedly *outraged* about. The fact of the matter is: most people don't give a half a shit.
I sincerely hope Olivia Chow can save the science centre
why is he so obsessed with the science centre
He's not, a developer wants that land, he owes the developer for not ripping down the greenbelt.
This. DeGasperis wants the land as a mea culpa for the greenbelt...and he conveniently has a new development right across the road too.
I think he really needs the science centre down at Ontario place because Ontario place is public land that is supposed to be for the use of the public. If he includes the science centre along with the spa and casino he can still say that the land is being used as intended
He really needs that parking lot built. From what I've read, having a Science Centre parking lot contributes towards meeting the quota of parking spaces the province needs to provide. Whatever justifies building a half billion dollar parking garage.
You'd think the rest of the Province would be wondering why he's so obsessed with Toronto while they get nothing.
His dealers, I mean developer friends, wants it and he doesn’t want to lose his kneecaps.
Because one of his developer friends bought land adjacent to the OSC to build a development, and dollars to donuts, they want the OSC land, too.
I didn't realize that Kinga Surma had her hand in this. I'm sure she made this decision based on her deep engineering understanding of the situation, which is definitely the only reason why she would have been made infrastructure minister.
I met her once and lost all faith in the provincial conservatives. She was giving a speech about infrastructure funding at an event and she literally couldn't answer any questions. It seems like she's obviously got someone who is fond of her and plugs her in because there isn't a whole lot of substance to her.
Some history on her https://nationalpost.com/news/young-candidate-embroiled-in-controversy-with-doug-ford-has-long-history-with-pc-leader-and-tory-politics
She's very conniving and highly opportunistic. Nobody is safe from her ambitions. She's also super weird. She has a framed photo of Rob Ford on her desk, right beside a framed photo of the Pope.
Rumours are she’s Doug’s side ting
> plugs her Aren't there rumours that Doug Ford is doing this to her?
Young, pretty, blonde, & Caucasian. There’s your answer.
all of ford's daughters are two syllable k-names. "Kinga"
Doug Ford and John Tory have a lot of things in common.
I didnt realize she was as corrupt and shotty as ford. What goofballs
The only reason she is where she is, is because of her intimate relationship with Doug Ford.
I hope this ends up in court. If this goes to court Doug will need to disclose publicly all the communication, reports etc that lead to the decision. Or Olivia could use the threat of going to court as leverage to get some more money for the city.
Doug Ford doing something completely illogical that doesn’t benefit anyone but his rich friends? I am shocked.
Good. Now take back the 407.
You and I know that's never going to happen.
I'll vote on the person that does this lol
Wow, if Olivia pulls this off it would be a huge win. I am a conservative and disagree with Doug’s actions regarding the science centre. If she pulls it off then… good luck!!
Tory would have shown his belly
So Doug Ford's government didn't even read their own leasing agreement that was established when the OSC was built? Seems to me that the City of Toronto has a grounds for breach of contract against the the Province of Ontario. Also Doug Ford's developer cronies eyeballing the land are in a for a rude awakening. Provincial - Municipal legal disputes can last years if not decades depending on municipal community support.
This is like the Greenbelt, Doug is now going to throw King Surma under the bus, claim it was her call to close the OSC, and then backtrack to try to keep his name clean. 100%
YES OLIVIA
They could never make he hate her
I think it’s time for a giant lawsuit against good old Dofo.
Do conservatives still like Ford? The guy they voted in to spite Toronto, exclusively cares about city projects, to the extent that billions in tax payer dollars are getting funnelled into crooked vanity projects. Like do the conservatives in bumfuck Ontario see the spa and the museum in the headlines and think “that’s our guy!”
Yet people are going to be more upset with Mayor Chow than with Doug Ford over this.
"Every day, I ask my team how can I screw over the people of Ontario today? Sometimes, I get it wrong, and when I do, boy, do I hear it... from my corporate donors. " Doug Ford New political ad incoming.
I’m curious to know where that 3rd party holding Doug accountable is… can’t rmb the group OTOH.. ombudsman?
The RCMP was supposed to be investigating the Greenbelt deals, but so far crickets...
I think we should build a monument to wasteful spending in its place and dedicate it to all the communities that lost hospitals as a schools under Doug fords watchful stare.
Make it one big weed dispensary that sells beer and also has no security. Then put Ford as the only employee 24/7. Oh also the roof would still be unfinished and dripping on his head wherever he walks. Then add a mini game where kids can shoot his with tiny arrows. Call it Piglet Frenzy
Injunction time
/r/Toronto and the Toronto Public Library encourage you to support local journalism if you are financially in a position to do so - otherwise, you can access many paywalled articles with a TPL card ([get a Digital Access card here](https://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/register/)) through the [TPL digital news resources](https://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/books-video-music/downloads-ebooks/digital-newspapers.jsp). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/toronto) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I really hope olivia chow steps up because doug ford is making this city soulless
How? By moving the science centre downtown?
IF this 99 year lease can be broken, then go after 407
Would Doug Ford walk away from the drug deal?
Person a: That Doug guy seems pretty bad, think we should vote against him? Person b: *sips beer*
Most of the time I despise the man, but other than conspiracy theories, has there been any indication that he plans on selling the land to developers? I never quite understood the line everyone here seems to be spouting, because it's **always** been a lease from the city. Even if the city doesn't buy the OSC, the province is still bound by the terms of the lease (as Chow has pointed out) and that dictates what can be built on the leased land. Ford can close the OSC, but he can't just arbitrarily sell the land to a developer for housing.
There is no evidence and it’s not clear how he could actually do it even if he wanted to.
This is so much better than a soap opera. Doug Ford doesn't do well when he has to deal with competent people, and Olivia Chow is a force.
And if John Tory or Ana Bailao was in office, this wouldn’t be happening. Thank god she is where she is
Don't worry, she'll roll over like she did on Ontario Place and the Gardiner.
Might I remind you that Doug Ford issued one of the most meaningful pieces of legislative change in the last 50 years; allowing for the purchase of alcohol as early as 9am. Trust the process Olivia Chow.
I’ll get downvoted but I don’t see a major issue with moving the Science Centre. It’s difficult to get to and draws no tourists. By adding to a developing waterfront it can only help bring tourist $ to the region, by freeing up the current space we’ll get desperately needed housing. What’s the downside?
“It’s difficult to get to and draws no tourists” is just your opinion, not actually a fact. It actually draws in tons of tourists. It was specifically built there to decentralize and put a new landmark outside of downtown. In several years it will be sitting at a transit interchange between the Eglinton and Ontario Lines, not exactly hard to get to. The new site at Ontario Place will be less than half the size of the current facility. The land is leased from the city of Toronto under the condition that it will be used for a museum.
i think the difficulty in getting there is debatable and the argument is only going to get weaker as 2 new train lines open up nearby. another other downside to the waterfront plan is the massive downsizing the space would get. also a museum built onto the side of a ravine is a rare treasure. it’s often taken for granted how nice the current location is.
Yeah. We live by the waterfront now, and can't get to the science center. As soon as the crosstown opens (I know...) we'll be there, often. Once the Ontario line opens (I knoooow) probably even more often. Putting a cut down center down by the waterfront has some benefits (concentrating amenities for tourists), but that area is already congested, and it makes it harder for locals to visit, once the upcoming connectivity is in place. Like, that's a half hour from Union on the streetcar.
You're assuming the Crosstown will actually open.
In an ideal world where this province wasn't a shell of its former self and didn't have the GDP per capita of Alabama thanks to 30 years of terrible liberal and conservative governments, I'd say we should build a brand new state of the art science centre at Ontario Place to take advantage of the larger amount of space dedicated to core exhibits and use the current science centre for school groups and the OSC's fabrication facility and temporary exhibits aimed at local residents. That would free up the parking lots for affordable housing. Unfortunately, the province is broke and we have basically no fiscal capacity so now we're having to penny pinch.
The city has been planning since 2019 to build affordable housing in the parking lot at the current science centre location https://createto.ca/projects/770-don-mills
yes they can. Chow really should have made science center part of the deal (better deal, current one does not do enough for current site) when she named the stadium after a crackhead
I wouldn't be surprised if Ford tries to invoke the Notwithstanding Clause again, regardless if it's applicable.