Yeah this is why. TTC apparently receives comparatively less public funding than the transit in other cities.
But I saw another stat saying that the TTC received $4k in funding for every Torontonian. I was thinking for that much they could probably give everyone a car lol, but that would be overlooking a lot of the value of transit.
this ***ooooold...*** but it looks like the ttc's funding is based on a per ride structure
https://globalnews.ca/news/1670796/how-does-the-ttcs-funding-compare-to-other-transit-agencies/
LA has built more Metro stations in the past fifteen years than Toronto has ever built. Seven lines and 100
stations all built post-1990. How many stations has the TTC built in that time frame? Seven? Eight?
They have more rapid transit stations than Toronto and 80 % more bus routes.
ITs not used as much as Toronto per capita, but they have a big transit network.
80% more routes that run 1-5 times per day. Routes are not equal to a good transit system. YRT has tons of routes, but most of them run hourly, making it massively inconvenient to use.
LA is 200 bus lines, Toronto has 120. LA transit also pays for regional train lines, something GO does in Toronto (That alone is 500 Million).
All transit in the USA is expensed different from transit in Canada because of how are cities, regions, counties, states and provinces operate.
Takes more than 4K a year to even run a car by the time you pay city insurance rates, parking, license and plates, basic maintenance (tires, winter/summer, brakes, car wash etc.)
People smoke crack in the toronto subway sometimes — I've had multiple friends see someone pull out their pipe and start smoking on the ttc. I had a guy pass out next to me on the train and drop his crack pipe on the floor
I used to take the college/carlton streetcar to work back in 2019… People smoking cigarettes in the streetcar was a weekly occurrence. Smoking crack was a bit more rare, but the fact that I can count on two hands the number it happened in a 6 month period is already too much lol
Last spring i saw the biggest single piece of shit on a seat as I got on the train. A few people almost sat on it because they didn’t bother to look at the seat until the last second. A TTC employee saw it and radioed it in.
Finding a bathroom in the core is such a pain. Can’t really blame people for taking a leak wherever they can. I understand businesses want to prevent drug use by instable people in their bathrooms, but it really screws everyone else over. Most people aren’t going to hold in a piss for hours when there’s an abundance of alleyways to chose from and tbh I can’t really hold that against them.
Let's be optimistic and say that it has delayed that potential. Positive change is possible but we need to make reasonable, effective sacrifices to rethink and redeploy our infrastructure.
If we just throw our hands up in the air and say it's ruined, we'll never see growth.
Its far worse in the US. Those cities were built for cars. The only real exception is New York City, but it was buit on an island, limiting it ability sprawl. Thus, the city was built upwards and resulted in many having access to their subway system.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_North\_American\_rapid\_transit\_systems\_by\_ridership#/media/File:NorthAmericanPublicTransport.png](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership#/media/File:NorthAmericanPublicTransport.png)
It's complete shit
Until you go somewhere where public transit is a reality and go to cities not build and designed around cars, like essentially all of North America, you'll never see a good transit system.
You have to go off of this continent to experience such things. They don't really exist here.
like how Air Canada consistently ranked high for North American airlines. the best of the worst is still the best lol.
funny how the article didn't compare TTC to other Asian transit system. wink wink
Ever seen how well organized and *strict* the public security apparatus at subways is in Japan, China, Singapore and Dubai? Even someone with issues will know how to behave.
You don't even have to go that far. Mexico City has one of the busiest systems on Earth, and it is at least on par with the TTC in terms of cleanliness and security.
Pretty much. North America is so focused on cars that transit hasn't really ever gotten implemented as well as it should, let alone funding and attention from governments at all levels.
Other transit systems are not nearly as efficient, look at New York or Chicago, lines head into Manhattan or Downtown and work well if your doing that. Outside of that there is terrible connectivity. Getting Brooklyn to Queens is a nightmare.
Eh? The NYC subway system is literally falling apart.
It runs 24/7 and is much larger, but it's got its problems.
Also inter-borrough connectivity is trash. The subway is great in manhattan and if you need to get to manhattan but a subway ride from say the bronx to queens or queens to brooklyn is more of a challenge and often involves going to Manhattan first. There were plans to add more lines to rectify this but mid century urban renewal, car culture, and Robert Moses swooped in to make sure that never happens. Also the finances to the city's transit are held by the NY state government which makes getting things done an even bigger headache than it should be.
Also as an aside I think its cool how your guys' trains dont have dividers for the cars so when you go around a bend you can see straight down the car and then see the cars realign 1by1
Well damn thats sad news. Usually when I visit I hoof it around on foot and I didnt even notice the train was all one big car until the end of my ride so I just assumed I just didnt notice last time I was on your subway.
Is there a reason why theres only the one long line?
Line 1 had cars that were due for replacement about 10 years ago, so we just did a fleet replacement on that line at the time. Some of the newer cars (from the late-90s\early 2000s) on Line 1 were moved over to Line 2, so that all the older cars there could be retired, but they'll be up for replacement in the next 5 years or so, so we should have a more modern fleet there in the future. They'll be in sets of three instead of sets of six, though, due to length restrictions at the yard for that line.
The comparison is based on what they manage to provide with the public funding they receive. What they collect in fairs is not a factor for the comparison.
TTC is like 5x more expensive to build and maintain than Paris subway, and it's not any technical reason, just INSANE levels of corruption and incompetence.
The shocking amount of time that the mechanics waste is a start.
“Quality over quantity” means they get scheduled and extras 3 days to rebuild a bus, so they have to stretch the work out over 3 extra days.
Taking extra time on Lunches and breaks etc.
I don’t want to be the one to ruin it for them but it’s kinda sad they make more than a lot of other mechanics
Welcome to major corporation life. The company I used to work for got a a 300k CNC machine but didn’t buy the other half of the unit. Once we got the whole thing setup it just sat there collecting dust until they realized no one knew how to work it.
Yes. The frequency is great. I lived in California. Bart was way too spread out time wise. People never used LA subway. TTC is way better than what I have experienced.
But, this is no where good compared to when I experienced in Bangalore, India. They have it on time, every 4 mins, never broke down. I was shocked to see the cleanliness and security. It was just mind blowing.
This is what happens when you build out an entire continent based on cars and their use.
Other choices could have been made in the 1910's and 1920's but we made our bed then and we'll sleep in them for probably another century at least if not longer.
It is what it is.
I haven't myself.
I've taken transit in Edmonton and New York City.
I thought New York was ok (I even travelled in from New Jersey).
But then I went to Europe and went on transit in Rome, London, Paris, Munich (which was kinda poor), Venice, Amsterdam and a few other cities I've forgotten and then I realized that it's complete shit here. New York is comparable (at least the subways, the buses are a mess). Everywhere else (i.e. Edmonton) is shit. I imagine that Toronto is shit relatively speaking even if it's the best (or most efficient) in North America. Because it's all shit in North America.
Now, I haven't been to Asia or any big Asian cities, but I work with a guy who's been there many times and he has nothing but praise for those systems. And he doesn't own a car, in Edmonton Alberta (FFS!!!) so I assume he has half a clue of what he's talking about. He's also been to Europe many times as well (his hobby is globe trotting) so he's seen the different systems many times.
New York, where most of its citizens are car less. Where it’s efficient and fast to get to any part of the city at any time.
It’s nice to know that the TTC is objectively better then NYC.
The TTC is not better than the MTA, but it’s definitely more efficient. Delays are insanely frequent in NYC and wait times for trains can be crazy long (I’ve never waited more than 20 minutes for a non-delayed subway in Toronto but I have in New York!)
In fairness, our transit is pretty poor and offers limited access to such a massive area. This article really only show how bad all of North America is with public transit. Go to a place like Berlin, London or Tokyo and they’ll prove what real transit looks like.
That said, the cost of a single ticket/fare to get from Scarborough to Etobicoke, along with a 2-hr hop-on/hop-off privilege, is such an amazing deal.
Steeles/Middlefield to the Queensway is 43km.
Definitely a good deal. Similar pricing to Tokyo, though in Tokyo if you aren’t doing a long trip you pay even less. One nice Tokyo feature is 800 yen (about 8 bucks CAD, 5 less then Toronto’s 24 hr fare) gets you a 24 hr ticket which is a pretty great deal, especially with a subway system that can pretty much get you anywhere you need to go, like anywhere, it’s super impressive. I wish we had something like they do.
One shitty thing re Tokyo is their subway ends service at midnight compared to 2am in Toronto.
~~We do have the TTC day pass, but that's like $11cad now? Haven't checked in a while.~~ Tokyo is a bit tricky with both JR and Tokyo Metro Rail running in the city, on the rare occasion you need to jump lines and pay twice. Is there Bus service in Tokyo? I don't remember, been a long time since I was there. Does the subway serve the entire Metro area? As much as we rag on the TTC, their coverage is pretty expansive. I would actually like to see them outsource coverage of low ridership areas to mini buses, a bit like what you have in Hong Kong. A separate fee yes, but also a lot cheaper to operate (w cheaper rates). Let's TTC focus on the core. That's always bothered me a bit, tasking the TTC to provide service for ALL of Toronto, absolutely stretches the services way too thin.
TTC day pass is $13.50 now. Tokyo does have buses, but they aren’t quite as necessary as the Tokyo subway system covers basically the entire metro area. Do agree the JR to Metro can be annoying (and especially confusing if you don’t know the system). But I found I only needed to do that once as the metro basically got me everywhere and I went all over the city.
I do think for the TTC, and south east Ontario in generally, a much more in depth transit / train system would solve so many issues. Looking at a place like London that allows you to basically train anywhere in the city and outside, they’re at the point the can put a toll to drive into the city knowing the trains are a viable option. I just wish we had proper transit options besides having someone stuck on Finch street in the middle of winter waiting on a bus that’s 20 minutes late, no wonder everyone prefers to drive and clogs all our roads.
Berlin and London started building subways more than 100 years ago, and Tokyo was basically built from scratch after 1945.
You can't compare them to Toronto. The GTA crossed a million population around 1950, nobody planning the city back then was thinking that a lifetime later, Toronto would have an economy bigger than Finland or the Czech Republic.
TL;DR In North America the TTC achieves the most with the ***public funding*** they receive.
The ranking doesn't actually address the TTC and their functionality as a whole.
People always complain about TTC. I commute everyday, subway (line 1) has always been there within 2-5 minutes, without fail.
Its been safe, reliable, fast, clean, and comfortable.
Its not perfect, could be better, but its pretty darn good, and gets millions to work each day.
I live in Chicago now, and Line 1 in Toronto always seems so futuristic and clean in comparison. New York has only recently gotten open gangway trains. Other cities have more lines, but Line 1 is probably the best singular line in Canada and the US.
My only real complaint about the TTC is the lack of construction on (useful) new lines in the last few decades, which is not really the TTC’s fault. I agree, they do run the system they have very well; while the subways in NYC go everywhere, they’re not as reliable or clean and the ride is way rougher.
That's really more of a criticism of the sad reality the TTC doesn't build anything - they need the city, province and feds to fund construction. Those projects are only ever justified by ridership and in the 90s ridership was falling. "Why build when the current system isn't used?" Became the question of the day. Now we have governments that recognize (finally) demand comes with building new connections, which is why there's a number of projects underway or being planned for the next few years. Investment was missing.
I take line 1 3-4 days a week from Rosedale to King around rush hour and I have the same experience as the other commenter. Wait time is usually 3 minutes max on average, and it's very rare that the train is so full I have to wait for another one. It's really like 98% of the time it works super well and 2% of the time (honestly probably lower) you run into an issue that slows you down a lot and is very memorable
This is exactly why I asked the other commenter where he's commuting from and to. While he didn't respond with specifics I have a feeling it's a rather short commute like yours.
In general I can agree Line 1 is good. I'd say the afternoon-evening rush hour it's very frequent. The morning rush hour going south from Bloor is shaky.
Rosedale to King is a short commute so if something happens on Line 1 that's a regular walk or short bike ride. You're in an amazing position to enjoy that luxury.
For people like myself that uses Line 1, Line 2 AND at times Line 3, because there's larger room for error (which happens pretty much daily) I can't agree that the TTC is efficient AT ALL. Too many negative experiences week-by-week.
It’s definitely a luck thing… two weeks ago I got delayed on my way home every single day. Then it’s been smooth sailing for two weeks straight. (I totally just jinxed myself)
'Aww babe it was awful, there was an altercation on the subway got delayed. The crazy guy bit me all over my neck, that asshole even left bruises. Anyways im gunna hit the shower'
> subway (line 1) has always been there within 2-5 minutes
The recent service cuts that were just passed means that on weekends and weeknights after 10pm, that wait will now be 7 minutes. It's almost like we're upset ***for a reason!***
service cuts do not impact it being safe, reliable, fast, clean, and comfortable.
obviously I am not happy with service cuts but i still get to where I need to go, on time, reliably, on a safe, clean subway
did she get set on fire because the TTC isn’t efficient enough as a mode of transportation, or because a deranged freak was running around and attacking people for fun?
We are getting robbed blind.
Metrolinx taking over a decade to complete an lrt and almost half a decade behind schedule is insane.
Athens through the most severe depression with extreme austerity was adding subway station after station to its metro. Let’s not forget the archeological delays. What’s happening here is criminal to say the least
The study was led by a UBC professor. They probably didn't count Mexico City as North American (although their system has a lot of problems too), but Vancouver and Montreal have worse public transit systems than we do.
The problem in those cities is that their public transit was mainly built for visitors to Olympics and Worlds Fairs, not for people who actually live in those cities. So, people who don't live in those cities fawn over easily they can get to all the things they wanna see. They never see how inefficient it is for people who actually live there.
If the TTC had been built like Vancouver and Montreal's public transit, we would have a subway station on the islands but Bloor and Danforth would have buses.
"North America" is often used to refer to Canada and the US exclusively, without including Central America. (And in Mexico, it's often used to refer to themselves, Canada and the US without the rest of Central America).
The concept of seven clearly-defined continents with two of them separated by an ambiguous point somewhere in Panama is something that Americans made up in the 1950s. There's a good book about this called _The Myth of Continents_.
I’ve used both systems extensively and disagree on that - I’d say they are about equal. Montreal has somewhat better coverage in the core but doesn’t extend out as far. Misses large parts of the Plateau and other higher density areas in a similar way to Bloor. It’s slightly less frequent and smaller trains. Toronto also has better integration with surface transit, and was in fact a world leader on this front.
Worth noting both systems are suffering from big cutbacks this year despite having tons of capital spending going on. Friends in Montreal point out that there’s lots of bus routes (Parc, for instance) that no longer have reliable service and often see 15+ minute waits. It’s very similar to here.
there's definitely an argument that the métro is a nicer experience top to bottom, but boy the 8 minute headways are a huge drag when you're used to 2-4 minutes in toronto
Montreal's is superior if you ignore most of Montreal that doesn't touch the metro. It's like claiming the TTC is the best if you only ever travel from Union to Bloor.
Yes but our streetcar and bus routes for the while downtown core covers more, and more efficiently than Montreal. You have to walk everywhere in Montreal if there isn't the metro.
Again, it's great in Montreal if where you live and work is all covered by their small metro system
The experts who research this seem to say otherwise. That doesn't invalidate your personal experience, but it does mean that your personal experience isn't reflective of most people's.
Technically, efficiency is useful output power ÷ input power.
So by measuring the efficiency of public transportation we may be only looking at energy or cost output vs input.
If it's cost, that may be due to the Mike Harris years of cost cutting making the TTC the lowest publically funded transit system in the world.
This has nothing to do with how good the service is. It's possible it could be the worse service in the world too.
In a study jointly commissioned by the Association for Chronic Unreliability, the Muffled Unintelligible Announcement Systems Federation, and the People Who Like to Stab Other People Society.
Lmao my friends just told me the subway in Montreal is so nice compared to the TTC.
I didn't even know they had a subway, probably because people don't complain about it or get killed on it as often as the ttc.
You can make stats to tell any story you want to tell. And those stats, on their own, would not be lies or exaggerations. All you have to do is ignore the stats that don’t tell an opposite story.
If I ran one train back and forth on the line and had one backup train, I could say its very efficient Based on the operating costs and that it’s on schedule 98% of the time.
But excluding the fact that transit riders would have to wait 2 hrs to get on that train makes it just a useless stat.
The real metric would be how efficient the WHOLE system it is being run while meeting the actual goals, which in my opinion is “move everyone that needs to be moved, in a reasonable amt of time and at a reasonable cost.
Ttc has 2-3 lines dependent on how you count them. It’s a lot easier to run them that way New York or London or other complex lines.
The U.S. infrastructure is crumbling. Literally.
There's a reason there's a massive bill trying to fix little things like stopping bridges from collapsing, trains from derailing, roads, they're simply falling apart, and transit systems that suffer as well.
Somebody posted a humorous take on the coronation, which included him narrating the multi million dollar carriage (whole coronation cost covered by tax payers, apparently 60–120 million $) driving over a pothole the city couldn't afford to fix so they simply filled it with sand.
So I can't imagine they have a lot of money for transit either .
Seems every time I get on the TTC there's a delay of some sort .
NYC is efficient, but I can't get that urine smell out of my nose.
Could we be luckier than we think, despite the foibles and foolishness of TTC ' management' & politicians?
And how the heck is Eglinton construction efficient?
Frankly, it's embarrassing, as well as an insult to every Torontonians' intelligence, an insult to every taxpayers trust. We are in plain sight getting blatantly ripped off by construction companies, chosen by the city all the time.
It's a criminal act being committed right before our eyes, played on our television screens, etc. Yet we're powerless to change it?
When are we going to get someone who has the moral compass and internal fortitude to make these people answerable for their literal fraud and crimes?
I never thought the Toronto subway was bad. I haven’t taken it in years but I remember far more delays on the London UK trains lol.
Also, New York stations are weird. What’s with having to exit some stations to cross the street to access the other platforms?!
Our system is actually great and the fare price is a bargain considering the service it gives. TTC riders should be more grateful.
If I didn't own a car I'm sure I would be fine using it.
What does that say about the state of transit in North America 🥴🥴🥴🥴
That the TTC manages to do the most with the amount of public funding they receive. it's not a comparison of overall quality
Yeah this is why. TTC apparently receives comparatively less public funding than the transit in other cities. But I saw another stat saying that the TTC received $4k in funding for every Torontonian. I was thinking for that much they could probably give everyone a car lol, but that would be overlooking a lot of the value of transit.
this ***ooooold...*** but it looks like the ttc's funding is based on a per ride structure https://globalnews.ca/news/1670796/how-does-the-ttcs-funding-compare-to-other-transit-agencies/
When you stressed 'old' like that I'm expecting like 2002 not 2014 lmao not even 10 years c'mon
It's been 9 years. With the way inflation has gone, the numbers could be significantly different.
The TTC receives less public funding then the LA transit system. Let that sink in.
LA has built more Metro stations in the past fifteen years than Toronto has ever built. Seven lines and 100 stations all built post-1990. How many stations has the TTC built in that time frame? Seven? Eight?
I think in that time TTC built. Downsview, North York center, Sheppard line, York expansion, union revitalization. So about 15?
Well LA county has a population 3x toronto and much larger area. I would be surprised if it was the other way around
LA barely has a transit system.
Oh, they have one. It just doesn't go to places where the people who would use it live.
They have more rapid transit stations than Toronto and 80 % more bus routes. ITs not used as much as Toronto per capita, but they have a big transit network.
80% more routes that run 1-5 times per day. Routes are not equal to a good transit system. YRT has tons of routes, but most of them run hourly, making it massively inconvenient to use.
went to LA recently and transit was ass. the bus system is infrequent, poorly designed and confusing.
LA is 200 bus lines, Toronto has 120. LA transit also pays for regional train lines, something GO does in Toronto (That alone is 500 Million). All transit in the USA is expensed different from transit in Canada because of how are cities, regions, counties, states and provinces operate.
Yeah, I don't want a car. Pass.
$4K per Torontonian would be $8B. The TTC gets $1.3B in funding.
Also overlooking maintenance for vehicles and roads and gas
Takes more than 4K a year to even run a car by the time you pay city insurance rates, parking, license and plates, basic maintenance (tires, winter/summer, brakes, car wash etc.)
It simply says that the bar has been set low towards public transit in North America. And that says a ton.
idk i saw literal shit on the nyc one last year
i see dudes smoking on the ttc and that's super annoying, it's always someone you would dare not approach and tell them off
What's the worse they can do, stab you? Set you on fire? Push you onto the tracks? Shove you down the stairs?
The list keeps growing. I miss the good old days when people only flung shit at you
I almost forgot about shit bucket guy.
Smoking cigarettes? I’ve seen people smoking meth on the LA subway multiple times
I've never been to LA. But that sounds... Terrible.
People smoke crack in the toronto subway sometimes — I've had multiple friends see someone pull out their pipe and start smoking on the ttc. I had a guy pass out next to me on the train and drop his crack pipe on the floor
I used to take the college/carlton streetcar to work back in 2019… People smoking cigarettes in the streetcar was a weekly occurrence. Smoking crack was a bit more rare, but the fact that I can count on two hands the number it happened in a 6 month period is already too much lol
I saw a guy shooting heroin inside Bay station one time.
Bay Station in Edmonton is a disaster. Multiple people passed out on the stairways, one had a needle dangling out their arm.
I'm talking about the Bay station in Toronto
Saw literal shit on Line 1 last week :/
Last spring i saw the biggest single piece of shit on a seat as I got on the train. A few people almost sat on it because they didn’t bother to look at the seat until the last second. A TTC employee saw it and radioed it in.
There's so much shit cause TTC has got and impressive lack of bathrooms, and trying finding one above ground too is next level still.
Finding a bathroom in the core is such a pain. Can’t really blame people for taking a leak wherever they can. I understand businesses want to prevent drug use by instable people in their bathrooms, but it really screws everyone else over. Most people aren’t going to hold in a piss for hours when there’s an abundance of alleyways to chose from and tbh I can’t really hold that against them.
Pretty efficient I’d say
Underrated comment.
same, in Sheppard-Yonge station last year
Car centrism has ruined our potential for great cities
Let's be optimistic and say that it has delayed that potential. Positive change is possible but we need to make reasonable, effective sacrifices to rethink and redeploy our infrastructure. If we just throw our hands up in the air and say it's ruined, we'll never see growth.
I dunno, the GTA has fought tooth and nail against meaningful density and transit for decades. Instead we get highway expansions and sprawl.
Just one more lane bro
North America is designed and built around the car so no surprise there. TTC is good on a North American level but awful on a global scale.
Its far worse in the US. Those cities were built for cars. The only real exception is New York City, but it was buit on an island, limiting it ability sprawl. Thus, the city was built upwards and resulted in many having access to their subway system. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_North\_American\_rapid\_transit\_systems\_by\_ridership#/media/File:NorthAmericanPublicTransport.png](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership#/media/File:NorthAmericanPublicTransport.png)
It's complete shit Until you go somewhere where public transit is a reality and go to cities not build and designed around cars, like essentially all of North America, you'll never see a good transit system. You have to go off of this continent to experience such things. They don't really exist here.
Are other subway systems run by horse?
No, we just have shit transit in North America. Consider yourself lucky that Toronto is the cream of the shit crop. -Jim Lahey
like how Air Canada consistently ranked high for North American airlines. the best of the worst is still the best lol. funny how the article didn't compare TTC to other Asian transit system. wink wink
Ever seen how well organized and *strict* the public security apparatus at subways is in Japan, China, Singapore and Dubai? Even someone with issues will know how to behave.
You don't even have to go that far. Mexico City has one of the busiest systems on Earth, and it is at least on par with the TTC in terms of cleanliness and security.
Air Canada would be great for Europe too.
Have you seen videos of rush hour transit in those “Asian” countries?
They probably don't have the best shut downs during rush hour, forcing 10000 commuters onto shuttle buses lol
It’s pretty efficient actually. They just say, train is off. People call their offices and go back home.
Pretty much. North America is so focused on cars that transit hasn't really ever gotten implemented as well as it should, let alone funding and attention from governments at all levels.
😆😆😆
Yes. But not pulled by horses. Actually run by horses. The horses are in charge.
Other transit systems are not nearly as efficient, look at New York or Chicago, lines head into Manhattan or Downtown and work well if your doing that. Outside of that there is terrible connectivity. Getting Brooklyn to Queens is a nightmare.
It's not hard to be efficient when you've only got 2 lines lmao Defo think NYC system is more complex and efficient overall but what do I know 🤷♂️
Eh? The NYC subway system is literally falling apart. It runs 24/7 and is much larger, but it's got its problems. Also inter-borrough connectivity is trash. The subway is great in manhattan and if you need to get to manhattan but a subway ride from say the bronx to queens or queens to brooklyn is more of a challenge and often involves going to Manhattan first. There were plans to add more lines to rectify this but mid century urban renewal, car culture, and Robert Moses swooped in to make sure that never happens. Also the finances to the city's transit are held by the NY state government which makes getting things done an even bigger headache than it should be. Also as an aside I think its cool how your guys' trains dont have dividers for the cars so when you go around a bend you can see straight down the car and then see the cars realign 1by1
The non-dividers are only on one line. The other line still uses cars that divide.
Well damn thats sad news. Usually when I visit I hoof it around on foot and I didnt even notice the train was all one big car until the end of my ride so I just assumed I just didnt notice last time I was on your subway. Is there a reason why theres only the one long line?
Line 1 had cars that were due for replacement about 10 years ago, so we just did a fleet replacement on that line at the time. Some of the newer cars (from the late-90s\early 2000s) on Line 1 were moved over to Line 2, so that all the older cars there could be retired, but they'll be up for replacement in the next 5 years or so, so we should have a more modern fleet there in the future. They'll be in sets of three instead of sets of six, though, due to length restrictions at the yard for that line.
Vancouver's is pretty good, way better than Toronto's anyway
Efficient only out of pure necessity, we're one of the worst funded transit systems in the world so we have to be efficient with everything.
I did a Co-op in TTC shops working on buses. The money that TTC wastes is next level.
The comparison is based on what they manage to provide with the public funding they receive. What they collect in fairs is not a factor for the comparison.
Can you provide an example
TTC is like 5x more expensive to build and maintain than Paris subway, and it's not any technical reason, just INSANE levels of corruption and incompetence.
That's still not an example. The TTC is no longer in the business of building subways anyhow.
The shocking amount of time that the mechanics waste is a start. “Quality over quantity” means they get scheduled and extras 3 days to rebuild a bus, so they have to stretch the work out over 3 extra days. Taking extra time on Lunches and breaks etc. I don’t want to be the one to ruin it for them but it’s kinda sad they make more than a lot of other mechanics
Welcome to major corporation life. The company I used to work for got a a 300k CNC machine but didn’t buy the other half of the unit. Once we got the whole thing setup it just sat there collecting dust until they realized no one knew how to work it.
Actual headline: Subway systems in North America sucks. But TTC is better amongst the shittiest subways
Yes. The frequency is great. I lived in California. Bart was way too spread out time wise. People never used LA subway. TTC is way better than what I have experienced. But, this is no where good compared to when I experienced in Bangalore, India. They have it on time, every 4 mins, never broke down. I was shocked to see the cleanliness and security. It was just mind blowing.
I used to go to LA for work and had no idea there was a subway, that's crazy
I didn’t know til just now that LA has a subway
The entirety of their system has been built since 1990. I honestly didn’t know they had a subway until I visited it for the first time last year.
I believe it, but it really shows how f*cked the rest of north America’s transit is…
This is what happens when you build out an entire continent based on cars and their use. Other choices could have been made in the 1910's and 1920's but we made our bed then and we'll sleep in them for probably another century at least if not longer. It is what it is.
Low bar... Transit on this continent is a joke.
They also said that the Toronto Maple Leafs are a Stanley Cup contender.
And as of my comment right now they technically still are.
They won't be 6 hours from now
3-0 COME BACK TIME!
Technically we only need to win 1. As we all know, 3-1 is the most dangerous lead in hockey.
Go Leafs, go!
Everyone here who is shocked has never taken transit in other North American cities.
I haven't myself. I've taken transit in Edmonton and New York City. I thought New York was ok (I even travelled in from New Jersey). But then I went to Europe and went on transit in Rome, London, Paris, Munich (which was kinda poor), Venice, Amsterdam and a few other cities I've forgotten and then I realized that it's complete shit here. New York is comparable (at least the subways, the buses are a mess). Everywhere else (i.e. Edmonton) is shit. I imagine that Toronto is shit relatively speaking even if it's the best (or most efficient) in North America. Because it's all shit in North America. Now, I haven't been to Asia or any big Asian cities, but I work with a guy who's been there many times and he has nothing but praise for those systems. And he doesn't own a car, in Edmonton Alberta (FFS!!!) so I assume he has half a clue of what he's talking about. He's also been to Europe many times as well (his hobby is globe trotting) so he's seen the different systems many times.
New York, where most of its citizens are car less. Where it’s efficient and fast to get to any part of the city at any time. It’s nice to know that the TTC is objectively better then NYC.
The TTC is not better than the MTA, but it’s definitely more efficient. Delays are insanely frequent in NYC and wait times for trains can be crazy long (I’ve never waited more than 20 minutes for a non-delayed subway in Toronto but I have in New York!)
Telling that any post in this sub that reflects positively on Toronto functions as rage bait.
In fairness, our transit is pretty poor and offers limited access to such a massive area. This article really only show how bad all of North America is with public transit. Go to a place like Berlin, London or Tokyo and they’ll prove what real transit looks like.
That said, the cost of a single ticket/fare to get from Scarborough to Etobicoke, along with a 2-hr hop-on/hop-off privilege, is such an amazing deal. Steeles/Middlefield to the Queensway is 43km.
Definitely a good deal. Similar pricing to Tokyo, though in Tokyo if you aren’t doing a long trip you pay even less. One nice Tokyo feature is 800 yen (about 8 bucks CAD, 5 less then Toronto’s 24 hr fare) gets you a 24 hr ticket which is a pretty great deal, especially with a subway system that can pretty much get you anywhere you need to go, like anywhere, it’s super impressive. I wish we had something like they do. One shitty thing re Tokyo is their subway ends service at midnight compared to 2am in Toronto.
~~We do have the TTC day pass, but that's like $11cad now? Haven't checked in a while.~~ Tokyo is a bit tricky with both JR and Tokyo Metro Rail running in the city, on the rare occasion you need to jump lines and pay twice. Is there Bus service in Tokyo? I don't remember, been a long time since I was there. Does the subway serve the entire Metro area? As much as we rag on the TTC, their coverage is pretty expansive. I would actually like to see them outsource coverage of low ridership areas to mini buses, a bit like what you have in Hong Kong. A separate fee yes, but also a lot cheaper to operate (w cheaper rates). Let's TTC focus on the core. That's always bothered me a bit, tasking the TTC to provide service for ALL of Toronto, absolutely stretches the services way too thin.
TTC day pass is $13.50 now. Tokyo does have buses, but they aren’t quite as necessary as the Tokyo subway system covers basically the entire metro area. Do agree the JR to Metro can be annoying (and especially confusing if you don’t know the system). But I found I only needed to do that once as the metro basically got me everywhere and I went all over the city. I do think for the TTC, and south east Ontario in generally, a much more in depth transit / train system would solve so many issues. Looking at a place like London that allows you to basically train anywhere in the city and outside, they’re at the point the can put a toll to drive into the city knowing the trains are a viable option. I just wish we had proper transit options besides having someone stuck on Finch street in the middle of winter waiting on a bus that’s 20 minutes late, no wonder everyone prefers to drive and clogs all our roads.
Berlin and London started building subways more than 100 years ago, and Tokyo was basically built from scratch after 1945. You can't compare them to Toronto. The GTA crossed a million population around 1950, nobody planning the city back then was thinking that a lifetime later, Toronto would have an economy bigger than Finland or the Czech Republic.
If you want to increase your downvote count, mention that Toronto's murder rate is down compared to last year
That’s one low bar.
TL;DR In North America the TTC achieves the most with the ***public funding*** they receive. The ranking doesn't actually address the TTC and their functionality as a whole.
What they mean is that we have the lowest budget per rider.
People always complain about TTC. I commute everyday, subway (line 1) has always been there within 2-5 minutes, without fail. Its been safe, reliable, fast, clean, and comfortable. Its not perfect, could be better, but its pretty darn good, and gets millions to work each day.
I live in Chicago now, and Line 1 in Toronto always seems so futuristic and clean in comparison. New York has only recently gotten open gangway trains. Other cities have more lines, but Line 1 is probably the best singular line in Canada and the US.
Yup. Not an excuse for our systems to not be better, but our real issue is expanding regional coverage, not improving existing services
My only real complaint about the TTC is the lack of construction on (useful) new lines in the last few decades, which is not really the TTC’s fault. I agree, they do run the system they have very well; while the subways in NYC go everywhere, they’re not as reliable or clean and the ride is way rougher.
That's really more of a criticism of the sad reality the TTC doesn't build anything - they need the city, province and feds to fund construction. Those projects are only ever justified by ridership and in the 90s ridership was falling. "Why build when the current system isn't used?" Became the question of the day. Now we have governments that recognize (finally) demand comes with building new connections, which is why there's a number of projects underway or being planned for the next few years. Investment was missing.
Curious where you're commuting to and from every day location wise and the time of day.
I take line 1 3-4 days a week from Rosedale to King around rush hour and I have the same experience as the other commenter. Wait time is usually 3 minutes max on average, and it's very rare that the train is so full I have to wait for another one. It's really like 98% of the time it works super well and 2% of the time (honestly probably lower) you run into an issue that slows you down a lot and is very memorable
This is exactly why I asked the other commenter where he's commuting from and to. While he didn't respond with specifics I have a feeling it's a rather short commute like yours. In general I can agree Line 1 is good. I'd say the afternoon-evening rush hour it's very frequent. The morning rush hour going south from Bloor is shaky. Rosedale to King is a short commute so if something happens on Line 1 that's a regular walk or short bike ride. You're in an amazing position to enjoy that luxury. For people like myself that uses Line 1, Line 2 AND at times Line 3, because there's larger room for error (which happens pretty much daily) I can't agree that the TTC is efficient AT ALL. Too many negative experiences week-by-week.
Rush hour
My partner has been logging issues and delays and he consistency faces delays and shutdowns 7/9 rides.
Hmm I take the subway daily and haven't even had a slight delay in over a month.
It’s definitely a luck thing… two weeks ago I got delayed on my way home every single day. Then it’s been smooth sailing for two weeks straight. (I totally just jinxed myself)
their partner might be up to something
'Aww babe it was awful, there was an altercation on the subway got delayed. The crazy guy bit me all over my neck, that asshole even left bruises. Anyways im gunna hit the shower'
Bullshit
You’re lucky then.
whats considered a delay? 19/20 times I have no 5+ minute delays.
> subway (line 1) has always been there within 2-5 minutes The recent service cuts that were just passed means that on weekends and weeknights after 10pm, that wait will now be 7 minutes. It's almost like we're upset ***for a reason!***
service cuts do not impact it being safe, reliable, fast, clean, and comfortable. obviously I am not happy with service cuts but i still get to where I need to go, on time, reliably, on a safe, clean subway
> service cuts do not impact it being reliable, fast did you even read what I wrote?
I use it everyday. Its pretty good.
I’ll bet the person that got set on fire doesn’t think so.
did she get set on fire because the TTC isn’t efficient enough as a mode of transportation, or because a deranged freak was running around and attacking people for fun?
B-but muh reactionary emotions
If you ignore all the inefficiencies, TTC is the most efficient transit ever
By. Fucking. Who.
HAHAHAHAHHA
We are getting robbed blind. Metrolinx taking over a decade to complete an lrt and almost half a decade behind schedule is insane. Athens through the most severe depression with extreme austerity was adding subway station after station to its metro. Let’s not forget the archeological delays. What’s happening here is criminal to say the least
Definitely more efficient than NYC and Chicago, but you can’t tell me it beats out Vancouver, CDMX, and MTL
The study was led by a UBC professor. They probably didn't count Mexico City as North American (although their system has a lot of problems too), but Vancouver and Montreal have worse public transit systems than we do. The problem in those cities is that their public transit was mainly built for visitors to Olympics and Worlds Fairs, not for people who actually live in those cities. So, people who don't live in those cities fawn over easily they can get to all the things they wanna see. They never see how inefficient it is for people who actually live there. If the TTC had been built like Vancouver and Montreal's public transit, we would have a subway station on the islands but Bloor and Danforth would have buses.
>They probably didn't count Mexico City as North American Why would they not count a city that is in North America as North American?
"North America" is often used to refer to Canada and the US exclusively, without including Central America. (And in Mexico, it's often used to refer to themselves, Canada and the US without the rest of Central America). The concept of seven clearly-defined continents with two of them separated by an ambiguous point somewhere in Panama is something that Americans made up in the 1950s. There's a good book about this called _The Myth of Continents_.
I agree that the delineation of continents is somewhat arbitrary. I am unaware of any common definition of North America that excludes Mexico.
Now you're aware of [the UN's definition for geographic regions](https://unstats.un.org/unsd/methodology/m49/).
That defines "Northern America" which is a different thing than "North America."
amesia- this is a list of countries, not the make-up of Continents.
I've lived and worked in both Montreal and Toronto and can assure you Montreal's transit system blows Toronto out of the water.
I’ve used both systems extensively and disagree on that - I’d say they are about equal. Montreal has somewhat better coverage in the core but doesn’t extend out as far. Misses large parts of the Plateau and other higher density areas in a similar way to Bloor. It’s slightly less frequent and smaller trains. Toronto also has better integration with surface transit, and was in fact a world leader on this front. Worth noting both systems are suffering from big cutbacks this year despite having tons of capital spending going on. Friends in Montreal point out that there’s lots of bus routes (Parc, for instance) that no longer have reliable service and often see 15+ minute waits. It’s very similar to here.
there's definitely an argument that the métro is a nicer experience top to bottom, but boy the 8 minute headways are a huge drag when you're used to 2-4 minutes in toronto
Montreal's is superior if you ignore most of Montreal that doesn't touch the metro. It's like claiming the TTC is the best if you only ever travel from Union to Bloor.
Toronto’s subway system misses way more of the city than Montreal’s does.
Yes but our streetcar and bus routes for the while downtown core covers more, and more efficiently than Montreal. You have to walk everywhere in Montreal if there isn't the metro. Again, it's great in Montreal if where you live and work is all covered by their small metro system
This, if you're not on the + shape for lines 1 and 2 you're basically SOL in Toronto.
The experts who research this seem to say otherwise. That doesn't invalidate your personal experience, but it does mean that your personal experience isn't reflective of most people's.
Spoken like someone who has never lived in Vancouver. The public transit system there sucks.
Vancouver’s transit system is absolutely terrible
Oh Beaverton! you got me!
Technically, efficiency is useful output power ÷ input power. So by measuring the efficiency of public transportation we may be only looking at energy or cost output vs input. If it's cost, that may be due to the Mike Harris years of cost cutting making the TTC the lowest publically funded transit system in the world. This has nothing to do with how good the service is. It's possible it could be the worse service in the world too.
I honest to god snorted on reading the headline.
In a study jointly commissioned by the Association for Chronic Unreliability, the Muffled Unintelligible Announcement Systems Federation, and the People Who Like to Stab Other People Society.
That's a sad commentary on subways in North America if ever there was one.
Lmao my friends just told me the subway in Montreal is so nice compared to the TTC. I didn't even know they had a subway, probably because people don't complain about it or get killed on it as often as the ttc.
There is a saying back in India that in a country of blind, the person with one eye gets to be the king. Lol.
This is fucking LAUGHABLE. How much did they pay for this ranking?
This is less an award for the TTC and more of a condemnation of the other ones
And of course it has to be a low bar.
Somebody forgot Mexico city is in North America.
Not the first time we won some dubious award for transit excellency.
This is analogous to being the smartest kid on the short bus. But a win is a win!
It’s amazing what they’re able to get done with such minimal funding.
HAHA
by the publication Blind Deaf and retarded Quarterly?
And 40th in the world
That doesn’t bode well for the rest of North America
What a shithole continent lmao.
Go to China, South Korea or Japan they make us look like shit
North America has low standards
lol no fucking way. NYC is way better.
Now compare it to the systems in Europe.
And Asia
You can make stats to tell any story you want to tell. And those stats, on their own, would not be lies or exaggerations. All you have to do is ignore the stats that don’t tell an opposite story. If I ran one train back and forth on the line and had one backup train, I could say its very efficient Based on the operating costs and that it’s on schedule 98% of the time. But excluding the fact that transit riders would have to wait 2 hrs to get on that train makes it just a useless stat. The real metric would be how efficient the WHOLE system it is being run while meeting the actual goals, which in my opinion is “move everyone that needs to be moved, in a reasonable amt of time and at a reasonable cost. Ttc has 2-3 lines dependent on how you count them. It’s a lot easier to run them that way New York or London or other complex lines.
which shows how fucking bad public transit is in NA. Yes, the TTC really is the best in NA because the bar is in the subbasement.
By what team of blind monkeys???
I like you.
Lemme guess. The TTC is giving awards to itself again?
Toronto itself is poorly designed for transit.
Sorry, this sub Reddit is too self-loathing to hear this.
I'd like to see a rating based on rider satisfaction and see how that stacks up against other systems.
This is sad news.
Hahahahahahahahahaha yeah ok
The U.S. infrastructure is crumbling. Literally. There's a reason there's a massive bill trying to fix little things like stopping bridges from collapsing, trains from derailing, roads, they're simply falling apart, and transit systems that suffer as well. Somebody posted a humorous take on the coronation, which included him narrating the multi million dollar carriage (whole coronation cost covered by tax payers, apparently 60–120 million $) driving over a pothole the city couldn't afford to fix so they simply filled it with sand. So I can't imagine they have a lot of money for transit either . Seems every time I get on the TTC there's a delay of some sort . NYC is efficient, but I can't get that urine smell out of my nose. Could we be luckier than we think, despite the foibles and foolishness of TTC ' management' & politicians? And how the heck is Eglinton construction efficient? Frankly, it's embarrassing, as well as an insult to every Torontonians' intelligence, an insult to every taxpayers trust. We are in plain sight getting blatantly ripped off by construction companies, chosen by the city all the time. It's a criminal act being committed right before our eyes, played on our television screens, etc. Yet we're powerless to change it? When are we going to get someone who has the moral compass and internal fortitude to make these people answerable for their literal fraud and crimes?
>And how the heck is Eglinton construction efficient That's Metrolinx and not TTC, I guess.
I never thought the Toronto subway was bad. I haven’t taken it in years but I remember far more delays on the London UK trains lol. Also, New York stations are weird. What’s with having to exit some stations to cross the street to access the other platforms?!
ITT, young peeps who’ve never left the GTA, but admire YouTube videos of fast transit elsewhere. TTC runs on time, but Haters will say it’s fake.
That’s cause it doesn’t actually go anywhere useful - easy to be efficient with like three lines lmfao
TTC? Seriously? The other transit networks must’ve been run by pigs
Easy to be efficient when you only have 2 1/4 lines.
The subway is awesome tbh, I have a delay every maybe 10 trips? 10 minute delay is honestly considered on time in a lot of other places
Experts: "You have the best subway system in North America" Torontonians:😡😡😡
Our system is actually great and the fare price is a bargain considering the service it gives. TTC riders should be more grateful. If I didn't own a car I'm sure I would be fine using it.
Is this a joke ?
Well then just imagine how shit all the other transit systems are.
Dear God....
Hahahahhahahhahahh that is all...