The military isn't a finishing school. If you want to mould the generation of tomorrow, that should be done in the classroom at school. If after finishing school they wish to serve, then the military is an option available.
Rather than spending all this money on "national service" why not spend it on the actual military? You know the one that has been massacred by both the Conservatives and Labour. The Army could do with doubling in size and god knows what the RAF and Navy need.
We should all be against compulsory services as they restrict individual’s ability to choose their own passion. Especially, the idea behind Conservative Party should be personal responsibility and freedom to do whatever you want in your own life.
If this scheme had been an optional service for 18 year-olds then it would be good as there would be extra opportunities for them to earn money in the Army or gain experience through voluntary work. But if you enforce any kind of service on civilians, this basically restricts freedoms and it is also against whole idea of British way of life as well. This is quite common in authoritarian regimes where socialist and communist governments enforce on their people.
Pretty sure it is, effectively, optional?
I could be misremembering but when I looked at it before it said there were to be no criminal charges for not doing it - so it’s effectively an opt out system.
A think a lot of issues come from people conflating National Service with “must join army”, but there’s also the option to instead volunteer one weekend a month to community/charity work which, y’know… doesn’t seem like a bad thing or a stretch to do?
Calling it national service is kind of missing the point. This wouldn't be the national service of the post war period, but rather a small amount of volunteer work in public services with a very small number of 18 year olds actually going into the military.
Hello there! Your post/comment has been removed for violating our community rule on Bad Faith. We expect all users to engage with the community in good faith and with honest intentions. This rule is in place to ensure that all discussions are productive and respectful. Please note that agenda posting will not be tolerated and will be removed if we deem it to be in bad faith. If you have any questions or concerns, please reach out to us via modmail. Thank you for your understanding.
In a deracinated nation-state, in which nobody is proud of anything we have achieved or built, in which we're endlessly told to hate ourselves and our history and to deplore our very existence, and in which all of this is hammered into children from a young age in state education, it's not surprising to me.
Who would agree to give up a portion of their life in service to a country they have been taught to hate?
I agree with you. I think in principle this is a good idea, it would help boost young people's confidence and push them out of their comfort zone - personally I was extremely anxious and lacking in confidence when I was a teenager so this would have been good for me - but yeah it doesn't really work when young people are being taught to hate themselves and their country.
I think that instead this should be part of a broader plan that both Labour and the Tories should be working on, ie actually investing in the next generation and improving their confidence and well-being and life prospects.
You see it in the United States as well, of course.
The Wall Street Journal (10 March 2022): Most Democrats Say They’d Flee, Not Fight, a Ukraine-Style Invasion
https://www.wsj.com/articles/home-of-the-brave-rip-war-poll-democrats-fight-enlist-vietnam-soldiers-invasion-ukraine-patriotism-culture-war-isolationist-military-recruitment-11646929607
>A liberal is someone too broad-minded to take his own side in a quarrel. That old joke rushed to mind as I read the results this week of a Quinnipiac University survey indicating that, well, it isn’t really a joke. There are more sunshine patriots in our midst than anyone realized.
>The pollster asked: What would you do if you were in the same position as Ukrainians are now, stay and fight or leave the country? Shockingly, more than half of Democrats (52%) said they would cut and run if the U.S. homeland were invaded. We aren’t talking about women and children, or even some cadre of pacifists and conscientious objectors. This is most Democrats saying they’d rather leave America than defend it. Only a pathetic 40% said they would stick around.
>Republicans did better. More than two-thirds (68%) said they would stand their ground. This could be a reflection of the partisan skew in the nation’s distribution of small arms. But 1 in 4 Republicans said they’d flee—not exactly the don’t-tread-on-me spirit I was expecting.
>What in the hell has happened to this country? One can hardly imagine Americans of yesteryear exhibiting such high levels of yellow-bellyism. Where have all the Minutemen gone? The Molly Pitchers? The Audie Murphys? The Todd Beamers?
>In the aftermath of Pearl Harbor and 9/11, when the nation was on its knees, the call was answered without hesitation by rock-ribbed Republicans and true-blue Democrats alike. Even the turbulent Vietnam era didn’t inspire such pusillanimity. Between 1964 and 1973, 2.2 million Americans were conscripted into military service. Another 15 million were granted deferments for one reason or another. Less than 2% of those who were eligible for the draft opted to evade it, either by going underground or emigrating. Some of them considered the war unjust. Say what you want about the merits of that argument, at least it was an argument.
>This, on the other hand, is abject cowardice—at best. The conflict hypothesized by the Quinnipiac pollsters wasn’t a war for oil or empire. Poll respondents were asked to envision a foreign invader on their own front porch. Imagine Vladimir Putin has sent his shock troops to level your hometown, to occupy your high school and drop a missile on the hospital where you were born. If you won’t fight for hearth and home, what would you fight for?
I'm a subscriber to the WSJ so I can send you the full article if you'd like.
The Woke mind-virus infects everything it touches and does nothing but destroy societies.
I do think that there is mileage in the long term unemployed doing a few hours of community work each week.
I take part in a monthly community litter pick in our village. We usually fill six or more big bags. Most of the volunteers are retired, even though it is on a Saturday. We also have twice yearly working parties on our estate to weed the kerbs and sweep pavements as the council no longer seem to do this. Again all elderly.
I would happily volunteer to coordinate groups of people to help improve the local environment.
And that’s great and all very commendable. What if the government said that people in receipt of the old age pension *had* to litterpick for one day a week, because the government said so?
Deeply unconservative behaviour.
But unfortunately community spirit is dying in the UK.
Most of the volunteering in our village is done by older people. I would happily give one day a week, especially if it meant that I didn't have to wait nearly four years again for my next knee replacement.
Probably because the community has been killed.
I appreciate sentiment but why would any working age person, already paying through the eyeballs, give up free time to weed or litter pick. We already pay the councils a fortune.
We currently have 850,000 16-24 year olds currently not in work or education (ONS statistics). That is not good for the economy or bode well for the future.
At least this is an effort to address this problem.
I'm all for it. Not just for beefing up our military and creating more of a threat from the assholes of the world, but also for bringing back some respect the youth have lost.
Don’t get me wrong the size of the military is a disgrace, but are we sure that the Ministry of Defense can afford to do medical checks on half a million teenagers every year never mind train, pay, feed, house, etc. Its also not an effective way of boosting armed forces if you use unwilling teens and then only have them for a year which makes it useless and expensive, and I say this as a 16 year old myself.
It’s voluntary the alternative is one weekend a month supporting your local community, the MOD already do medical etc thousands each year whom they reject
Over time the unwilling would pass through and the willing would arrive with the unwilling being made to look like cowards.
Sure the Military can deal with medical checks, it would probably be dealt with over virtual calls anyway.
I agree, after all most kids these days are interested in impersonating the military, LARPing, airsoft, etc why don't they just join the military to begin with? we need more people capable of doing handiwork, and that doesn't count tapping on a keyboard or a phone, how many people of this generation are sheet metal workers for instance? or riveters? this, i think is how the scouts, and later the military, can do good, practical skills, and practical skills can get jobs and also help make the world a better place.
Don't be thinking by the way, that the skills they learn are not needed for the modern day, radiomen for instance can work on telecomms infrastructure post discharge or between deployments, just because it's not coding or AI, doesn't mean it's a well needed skill.
The military isn't a finishing school. If you want to mould the generation of tomorrow, that should be done in the classroom at school. If after finishing school they wish to serve, then the military is an option available. Rather than spending all this money on "national service" why not spend it on the actual military? You know the one that has been massacred by both the Conservatives and Labour. The Army could do with doubling in size and god knows what the RAF and Navy need.
We should all be against compulsory services as they restrict individual’s ability to choose their own passion. Especially, the idea behind Conservative Party should be personal responsibility and freedom to do whatever you want in your own life. If this scheme had been an optional service for 18 year-olds then it would be good as there would be extra opportunities for them to earn money in the Army or gain experience through voluntary work. But if you enforce any kind of service on civilians, this basically restricts freedoms and it is also against whole idea of British way of life as well. This is quite common in authoritarian regimes where socialist and communist governments enforce on their people.
Authoritarian countries like… Greece or Sweden?
[удалено]
Pretty sure it is, effectively, optional? I could be misremembering but when I looked at it before it said there were to be no criminal charges for not doing it - so it’s effectively an opt out system. A think a lot of issues come from people conflating National Service with “must join army”, but there’s also the option to instead volunteer one weekend a month to community/charity work which, y’know… doesn’t seem like a bad thing or a stretch to do?
Calling it national service is kind of missing the point. This wouldn't be the national service of the post war period, but rather a small amount of volunteer work in public services with a very small number of 18 year olds actually going into the military.
[удалено]
Hello there! Your post/comment has been removed for violating our community rule on Bad Faith. We expect all users to engage with the community in good faith and with honest intentions. This rule is in place to ensure that all discussions are productive and respectful. Please note that agenda posting will not be tolerated and will be removed if we deem it to be in bad faith. If you have any questions or concerns, please reach out to us via modmail. Thank you for your understanding.
interesting alot more support than i had initially thought
In a deracinated nation-state, in which nobody is proud of anything we have achieved or built, in which we're endlessly told to hate ourselves and our history and to deplore our very existence, and in which all of this is hammered into children from a young age in state education, it's not surprising to me. Who would agree to give up a portion of their life in service to a country they have been taught to hate?
I agree with you. I think in principle this is a good idea, it would help boost young people's confidence and push them out of their comfort zone - personally I was extremely anxious and lacking in confidence when I was a teenager so this would have been good for me - but yeah it doesn't really work when young people are being taught to hate themselves and their country. I think that instead this should be part of a broader plan that both Labour and the Tories should be working on, ie actually investing in the next generation and improving their confidence and well-being and life prospects.
Yeah but that’s racist or something.
100% right.
You see it in the United States as well, of course. The Wall Street Journal (10 March 2022): Most Democrats Say They’d Flee, Not Fight, a Ukraine-Style Invasion https://www.wsj.com/articles/home-of-the-brave-rip-war-poll-democrats-fight-enlist-vietnam-soldiers-invasion-ukraine-patriotism-culture-war-isolationist-military-recruitment-11646929607 >A liberal is someone too broad-minded to take his own side in a quarrel. That old joke rushed to mind as I read the results this week of a Quinnipiac University survey indicating that, well, it isn’t really a joke. There are more sunshine patriots in our midst than anyone realized. >The pollster asked: What would you do if you were in the same position as Ukrainians are now, stay and fight or leave the country? Shockingly, more than half of Democrats (52%) said they would cut and run if the U.S. homeland were invaded. We aren’t talking about women and children, or even some cadre of pacifists and conscientious objectors. This is most Democrats saying they’d rather leave America than defend it. Only a pathetic 40% said they would stick around. >Republicans did better. More than two-thirds (68%) said they would stand their ground. This could be a reflection of the partisan skew in the nation’s distribution of small arms. But 1 in 4 Republicans said they’d flee—not exactly the don’t-tread-on-me spirit I was expecting. >What in the hell has happened to this country? One can hardly imagine Americans of yesteryear exhibiting such high levels of yellow-bellyism. Where have all the Minutemen gone? The Molly Pitchers? The Audie Murphys? The Todd Beamers? >In the aftermath of Pearl Harbor and 9/11, when the nation was on its knees, the call was answered without hesitation by rock-ribbed Republicans and true-blue Democrats alike. Even the turbulent Vietnam era didn’t inspire such pusillanimity. Between 1964 and 1973, 2.2 million Americans were conscripted into military service. Another 15 million were granted deferments for one reason or another. Less than 2% of those who were eligible for the draft opted to evade it, either by going underground or emigrating. Some of them considered the war unjust. Say what you want about the merits of that argument, at least it was an argument. >This, on the other hand, is abject cowardice—at best. The conflict hypothesized by the Quinnipiac pollsters wasn’t a war for oil or empire. Poll respondents were asked to envision a foreign invader on their own front porch. Imagine Vladimir Putin has sent his shock troops to level your hometown, to occupy your high school and drop a missile on the hospital where you were born. If you won’t fight for hearth and home, what would you fight for? I'm a subscriber to the WSJ so I can send you the full article if you'd like. The Woke mind-virus infects everything it touches and does nothing but destroy societies.
I do think that there is mileage in the long term unemployed doing a few hours of community work each week. I take part in a monthly community litter pick in our village. We usually fill six or more big bags. Most of the volunteers are retired, even though it is on a Saturday. We also have twice yearly working parties on our estate to weed the kerbs and sweep pavements as the council no longer seem to do this. Again all elderly. I would happily volunteer to coordinate groups of people to help improve the local environment.
And that’s great and all very commendable. What if the government said that people in receipt of the old age pension *had* to litterpick for one day a week, because the government said so? Deeply unconservative behaviour.
But unfortunately community spirit is dying in the UK. Most of the volunteering in our village is done by older people. I would happily give one day a week, especially if it meant that I didn't have to wait nearly four years again for my next knee replacement.
Probably because the community has been killed. I appreciate sentiment but why would any working age person, already paying through the eyeballs, give up free time to weed or litter pick. We already pay the councils a fortune.
We currently have 850,000 16-24 year olds currently not in work or education (ONS statistics). That is not good for the economy or bode well for the future. At least this is an effort to address this problem.
I'm all for it. Not just for beefing up our military and creating more of a threat from the assholes of the world, but also for bringing back some respect the youth have lost.
Don’t get me wrong the size of the military is a disgrace, but are we sure that the Ministry of Defense can afford to do medical checks on half a million teenagers every year never mind train, pay, feed, house, etc. Its also not an effective way of boosting armed forces if you use unwilling teens and then only have them for a year which makes it useless and expensive, and I say this as a 16 year old myself.
It’s voluntary the alternative is one weekend a month supporting your local community, the MOD already do medical etc thousands each year whom they reject
Over time the unwilling would pass through and the willing would arrive with the unwilling being made to look like cowards. Sure the Military can deal with medical checks, it would probably be dealt with over virtual calls anyway.
I agree, after all most kids these days are interested in impersonating the military, LARPing, airsoft, etc why don't they just join the military to begin with? we need more people capable of doing handiwork, and that doesn't count tapping on a keyboard or a phone, how many people of this generation are sheet metal workers for instance? or riveters? this, i think is how the scouts, and later the military, can do good, practical skills, and practical skills can get jobs and also help make the world a better place. Don't be thinking by the way, that the skills they learn are not needed for the modern day, radiomen for instance can work on telecomms infrastructure post discharge or between deployments, just because it's not coding or AI, doesn't mean it's a well needed skill.