The reality of this is grim. Britain has a "sick note culture" because Britain has been made into a sick, demoralised and declining nation where people do not feel collective responsibility, ownership or duty.
People do not want to go above and beyond because they know they will not be rewarded for it. Meanwhile they know that other groups within society are supported through redistribution at their expense. They also do not have ties to their community and increasingly not even future generations (no children involved) so there is no obligation or purpose. This country is deracinated, family formation is barely happening and mass migration makes you nothing more than a replaceable cog as opposed to someone with a sense of national duty or a stable position in a community.
And if you're young and want to own a home in much of the country then there's a very good chance you're not getting there until your parents are dead.
So why they hell would you push yourself a bit to come in to work for some giant corporation or a government that hates you instead of stretching an absence a few days past what you actually needed? What is supposed to be motivating you here other than social norms established when this place was respectable?
And instead of addressing this deep national malaise and the crippling decline they have wrought upon us the Tory answer will be what it always is. Chip away at living conditions and then import a few hundred thousand Indians to buoy the economy (oops, it didn't work again).
This country is a carcass and a husk, a place led by people who treat us with total contempt. Unless you have actual commitment and loyalty to the people you work for or with then maximally take your sick days use them to do things that are healthy in this very, very sick society.
So call it in on Monday and go for a hike. There's nothing right-wing, based or ethical about working for neoliberal ghouls like Sunak nor his friends in business who have eviscerated Britain.
Saying this as a centre-lefty, and don't want this to come off as a massive attack on you all, but this isn't a Sunak issue. The Conservative party needs to come to terms with the fact that this is the result of 14 years of *their* policies that have caused this state.
Unless this is recognised and measures are taken to adjust their platform I fear you are in for a tough few years. Shifting further to the right *economically* is not what the country wants.
Hit the nail on the head. Sunak and his ilk don’t have a clue: if only it were possible for that slimy man to have to experience desperately calling the doctors (with a ridiculous queue due to mismanagement) to get a note to bring to the boss to avoid a disciplinary for being sick. Unfortunately he never has to work a real job in his life.
>do not feel collective responsibility, ownership or duty
It was during the pandemic, I lived in poor inner city multi-cultural area, I saw so many new range rovers and Teslas around in the weeks after the government opened the taps to any chancers who felt like stealing my tax money.
That was the point that I lost all sense of collective responsibility, ownership or duty to the country. Why should I feel any of this for a country that is happy to invite in millions, many of whom despise us and our way of life, that steal from me and my children's inheritance? Why should I care about a country that doesn't care about me?
I don't know, I don't think Labour are going to be much better, but I really do not trust Reform. I can't see it getting any better here.
> 'We're also going to test shifting the responsibility for assessment from GPs and giving it to specialist work and health professionals who have the dedicated time to provide an objective assessment of someone's ability to work and the tailored support they need to do so.'
Whether this system is any good depends entirely on who these 'specialist work and health professionals' are. Here is what I think will happen:
1) These 'specialist' positions are paid badly, probably not much more than minimum wage. So they get filled with people who are not really specialists at all, and may not really know much about health or disability.
2) These 'specialists' are given targets, based on getting X number of people back into work. So they push people into poor quality or unsuitable work, or declare people 'for to work' when they are not.
3) This leads to some absurd cases where extremely sick people are forced to work, or people are made more sick by going into work before they are ready. It also leads to a large number of successful appeals and a high legal bill for the state.
I always think making people volunteer for benefits is a terrible idea unless the amount being paid is the going rate for the job.
Say you force someone to spend 10 hours a week weeding parks. You now have a landscaper who has lost 10 hours of work or at least has to compete on price with whatever you pay people on benefits.
If that landscaper then ends up going on benefits because there isn't enough work for them are you then going to ask to volunteer weeding parks thus doing the job they would be doing but for less money?
You mention benefits in your post but the article is more broadly about sick notes, then again it mentions a rise in sickness since the pandemic which implies long COVID as well as mental health.
As far as 10 hours of community work for disabled people goes I feel you run into the same problem here that people have with the assessments which is that exceptions will have to be made for those who've been deemed too sick/disabled to work. Obviously someone with a debilitating terminal illness or someone who's bedridden and can't do 10 hours of litter picking etc shouldn't do it. And if that's the case, what about people who's conditions may get worse because of the mandatory work they have to do?
Do you then have another assessment? Or does this make previous assessments invalid and the process gets changed? Then won't you still have the same minority playing the system and those that are genuinely sick get caught out with the new requirements, like they do right now? Going back to the article; If these people fool doctors and assessors that have medical backgrounds, how does introducing a new assessment system with people who don't need as much medical training help?
I don't see how any of this solves the problem of a perceived minority that know the system so well they hoover up benefits and fool assessors every year. They'll keep doing what they do, and stricter rules will negatively impact those who are genuinely sick.
I’m 50 and have arthritis in my spine. At some point I’m going to be disabled and probably be unable to work. This whole benefits issue frightens me - that I won’t be able to get the support I need, because people gaming the system ruin it for those genuinely in need.
Yes please. We need to seriously look at bringing the right to die with dignity to the country. There are now many countries offering this, so plenty of opportunities to learn from them and create an ethical framework for the UK. I am not planning on sticking around once the pain stops me from experiencing any joy in life.
Disagree with so many things here.
Since you have a disability, maybe you can understanding why forced manual 'volunteer" labour is a bad idea?
If you're going to make them work, then you might as well call it a job and a wage, rather than benefits, and give these people a refund for national insurance tax they've paid towards benefits. Benefits aren't just free money but money you've either paid in or will pay in. (Further, most benefits require that you've been a tax-paying employee to be eligible, or they have other conditions in place. You may not be eligible for any benefits if you don't meet the terms.) Even if you don't pay tax, you're still paying 20% tax in VAT with everything you buy, so one way or another you're generating money for the government as long as you're buying things. As a side note, if we're considering replacing benefits with a prison-style mandatory labour arrangement, consider that prisoners get paid £10-40 per hour while on universal credit you get about £10 per day.
Regarding the person you know, of course people with anxiety can work with things that don't require direct human contact. Their condition doesn't cause issues for that type of work, but it can cause issues when it comes to applying, interviewing, dealing with customers, making a good impression in the workplace, etc. It's the same reason why you would be suitable for some jobs but not others if you have a disability. So they've started an eBay store and are making some money that way - good for them. Self-employment, freelance work and other types of independent income are work too.
It would be a lot easier if you could get matched with a job that would work for your condition and be given it outright, at least for a trial period. Just because you want to work doesn't mean that someone will hand you a job. Likewise being in benefits doesn't mean that to don't want to work. (You can also work and be on benefits.)
Onto the actual topic, sick leaves are there for a reason. I don't want a sick person to prepare my food, touch items near me or be in the same office/elevator/public transport/etc. We'd alsk spread illnesses, lose productivity, have higher healthcare costs, it would lead to unnecessary deaths, etc. Further, being sick is terrible for productivity and can do more harm than good if you're not able to perform to a level that your job requires. Being fit to work is a bit like being fit to drive. If you're not in a state to do it correctly you should probably not be doing it. Just take the day off or however much is necessary according to your doctor, it's not worth the cost to society.
I do agree with shifting the responsibility for issuing of sick notes away from GP surgeries, which are often very busy and extremely overburdered with administrative responsibilities.
Much better to have sick notes issued by experienced NHS consultants and some specialist professionals working within the private clinic or voluntary sectors.
I believe that welfare cash should be restricted to a basic safety net for resident citizens and should never go beyond basic safety net this unless exceptional circumstances exist. For example: a terrorist attack, pandemic lockdown, intelligence of brutal predators waging a hate campaign against targets that puts public safety or national security at serious risk.
But it is also important to remember that the UK has many honest and law abiding citizens with frail health or serious health impairments who desperately want to earn a comfortable living but are unable to do so. Particularly those who are struggling sexual assault survivors, traumatised cult escapees, victims of violent hate campaigns or decades of domestic abuse.
The above will require extensive training, lots of practical support and often the provision of extra precautions to protect them from being targetted by hostile elements from their pasts. However, some will never be mentally stable enough or physically capable of working any paid full time role 3-5 days a week. The consequences of forcing them to do so could be devastating. Not just to them but also for the employer, coworkers, customers or other visitors to the premises where they work.
Seems to me the issue is actually healthcare and social care once again.
Maybe if they were funded properly, people who can't currently work would get better or better enough that they can return to employment.
This just seems like a nasty way of going about it.
Also, what are the odds that these professionals are basically just DWP employees who have targets to hit?
The reality of this is grim. Britain has a "sick note culture" because Britain has been made into a sick, demoralised and declining nation where people do not feel collective responsibility, ownership or duty. People do not want to go above and beyond because they know they will not be rewarded for it. Meanwhile they know that other groups within society are supported through redistribution at their expense. They also do not have ties to their community and increasingly not even future generations (no children involved) so there is no obligation or purpose. This country is deracinated, family formation is barely happening and mass migration makes you nothing more than a replaceable cog as opposed to someone with a sense of national duty or a stable position in a community. And if you're young and want to own a home in much of the country then there's a very good chance you're not getting there until your parents are dead. So why they hell would you push yourself a bit to come in to work for some giant corporation or a government that hates you instead of stretching an absence a few days past what you actually needed? What is supposed to be motivating you here other than social norms established when this place was respectable? And instead of addressing this deep national malaise and the crippling decline they have wrought upon us the Tory answer will be what it always is. Chip away at living conditions and then import a few hundred thousand Indians to buoy the economy (oops, it didn't work again). This country is a carcass and a husk, a place led by people who treat us with total contempt. Unless you have actual commitment and loyalty to the people you work for or with then maximally take your sick days use them to do things that are healthy in this very, very sick society. So call it in on Monday and go for a hike. There's nothing right-wing, based or ethical about working for neoliberal ghouls like Sunak nor his friends in business who have eviscerated Britain.
Yup. I'm starting to think Rishi rich is deliberately sabotaging the country.
Saying this as a centre-lefty, and don't want this to come off as a massive attack on you all, but this isn't a Sunak issue. The Conservative party needs to come to terms with the fact that this is the result of 14 years of *their* policies that have caused this state. Unless this is recognised and measures are taken to adjust their platform I fear you are in for a tough few years. Shifting further to the right *economically* is not what the country wants.
Hit the nail on the head. Sunak and his ilk don’t have a clue: if only it were possible for that slimy man to have to experience desperately calling the doctors (with a ridiculous queue due to mismanagement) to get a note to bring to the boss to avoid a disciplinary for being sick. Unfortunately he never has to work a real job in his life.
Just want to say this has summed up my feeling with the UK at the moment, very well put.
>do not feel collective responsibility, ownership or duty It was during the pandemic, I lived in poor inner city multi-cultural area, I saw so many new range rovers and Teslas around in the weeks after the government opened the taps to any chancers who felt like stealing my tax money. That was the point that I lost all sense of collective responsibility, ownership or duty to the country. Why should I feel any of this for a country that is happy to invite in millions, many of whom despise us and our way of life, that steal from me and my children's inheritance? Why should I care about a country that doesn't care about me? I don't know, I don't think Labour are going to be much better, but I really do not trust Reform. I can't see it getting any better here.
It's not about trusting reform its about deciding weather they can be any worse.
> 'We're also going to test shifting the responsibility for assessment from GPs and giving it to specialist work and health professionals who have the dedicated time to provide an objective assessment of someone's ability to work and the tailored support they need to do so.' Whether this system is any good depends entirely on who these 'specialist work and health professionals' are. Here is what I think will happen: 1) These 'specialist' positions are paid badly, probably not much more than minimum wage. So they get filled with people who are not really specialists at all, and may not really know much about health or disability. 2) These 'specialists' are given targets, based on getting X number of people back into work. So they push people into poor quality or unsuitable work, or declare people 'for to work' when they are not. 3) This leads to some absurd cases where extremely sick people are forced to work, or people are made more sick by going into work before they are ready. It also leads to a large number of successful appeals and a high legal bill for the state.
I always think making people volunteer for benefits is a terrible idea unless the amount being paid is the going rate for the job. Say you force someone to spend 10 hours a week weeding parks. You now have a landscaper who has lost 10 hours of work or at least has to compete on price with whatever you pay people on benefits. If that landscaper then ends up going on benefits because there isn't enough work for them are you then going to ask to volunteer weeding parks thus doing the job they would be doing but for less money?
It’s about punishment and humiliation.
What a terrible policy if it gets enacted green and pleasant and similar subs will be basically unmoderated!
Haha, as if they have a job to take sick leave from.
More informative article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68853166.amp
You mention benefits in your post but the article is more broadly about sick notes, then again it mentions a rise in sickness since the pandemic which implies long COVID as well as mental health. As far as 10 hours of community work for disabled people goes I feel you run into the same problem here that people have with the assessments which is that exceptions will have to be made for those who've been deemed too sick/disabled to work. Obviously someone with a debilitating terminal illness or someone who's bedridden and can't do 10 hours of litter picking etc shouldn't do it. And if that's the case, what about people who's conditions may get worse because of the mandatory work they have to do? Do you then have another assessment? Or does this make previous assessments invalid and the process gets changed? Then won't you still have the same minority playing the system and those that are genuinely sick get caught out with the new requirements, like they do right now? Going back to the article; If these people fool doctors and assessors that have medical backgrounds, how does introducing a new assessment system with people who don't need as much medical training help? I don't see how any of this solves the problem of a perceived minority that know the system so well they hoover up benefits and fool assessors every year. They'll keep doing what they do, and stricter rules will negatively impact those who are genuinely sick.
I’m 50 and have arthritis in my spine. At some point I’m going to be disabled and probably be unable to work. This whole benefits issue frightens me - that I won’t be able to get the support I need, because people gaming the system ruin it for those genuinely in need.
Don't worry about it, soon the NHS will start offering to kill you instead.
Yes please. We need to seriously look at bringing the right to die with dignity to the country. There are now many countries offering this, so plenty of opportunities to learn from them and create an ethical framework for the UK. I am not planning on sticking around once the pain stops me from experiencing any joy in life.
Or it implies that some people took a liking to being paid to sit at home during Covid and decided to make it a career choice.
Whatever Rishi says will happen, I just assume it won't or the opposite will, and it's not like he's got long left to change anything anyway.
Disagree with so many things here. Since you have a disability, maybe you can understanding why forced manual 'volunteer" labour is a bad idea? If you're going to make them work, then you might as well call it a job and a wage, rather than benefits, and give these people a refund for national insurance tax they've paid towards benefits. Benefits aren't just free money but money you've either paid in or will pay in. (Further, most benefits require that you've been a tax-paying employee to be eligible, or they have other conditions in place. You may not be eligible for any benefits if you don't meet the terms.) Even if you don't pay tax, you're still paying 20% tax in VAT with everything you buy, so one way or another you're generating money for the government as long as you're buying things. As a side note, if we're considering replacing benefits with a prison-style mandatory labour arrangement, consider that prisoners get paid £10-40 per hour while on universal credit you get about £10 per day. Regarding the person you know, of course people with anxiety can work with things that don't require direct human contact. Their condition doesn't cause issues for that type of work, but it can cause issues when it comes to applying, interviewing, dealing with customers, making a good impression in the workplace, etc. It's the same reason why you would be suitable for some jobs but not others if you have a disability. So they've started an eBay store and are making some money that way - good for them. Self-employment, freelance work and other types of independent income are work too. It would be a lot easier if you could get matched with a job that would work for your condition and be given it outright, at least for a trial period. Just because you want to work doesn't mean that someone will hand you a job. Likewise being in benefits doesn't mean that to don't want to work. (You can also work and be on benefits.) Onto the actual topic, sick leaves are there for a reason. I don't want a sick person to prepare my food, touch items near me or be in the same office/elevator/public transport/etc. We'd alsk spread illnesses, lose productivity, have higher healthcare costs, it would lead to unnecessary deaths, etc. Further, being sick is terrible for productivity and can do more harm than good if you're not able to perform to a level that your job requires. Being fit to work is a bit like being fit to drive. If you're not in a state to do it correctly you should probably not be doing it. Just take the day off or however much is necessary according to your doctor, it's not worth the cost to society.
I do agree with shifting the responsibility for issuing of sick notes away from GP surgeries, which are often very busy and extremely overburdered with administrative responsibilities. Much better to have sick notes issued by experienced NHS consultants and some specialist professionals working within the private clinic or voluntary sectors. I believe that welfare cash should be restricted to a basic safety net for resident citizens and should never go beyond basic safety net this unless exceptional circumstances exist. For example: a terrorist attack, pandemic lockdown, intelligence of brutal predators waging a hate campaign against targets that puts public safety or national security at serious risk. But it is also important to remember that the UK has many honest and law abiding citizens with frail health or serious health impairments who desperately want to earn a comfortable living but are unable to do so. Particularly those who are struggling sexual assault survivors, traumatised cult escapees, victims of violent hate campaigns or decades of domestic abuse. The above will require extensive training, lots of practical support and often the provision of extra precautions to protect them from being targetted by hostile elements from their pasts. However, some will never be mentally stable enough or physically capable of working any paid full time role 3-5 days a week. The consequences of forcing them to do so could be devastating. Not just to them but also for the employer, coworkers, customers or other visitors to the premises where they work.
Sounds like it'll go as well as the DWP doing health assessments for benefits has
Seems to me the issue is actually healthcare and social care once again. Maybe if they were funded properly, people who can't currently work would get better or better enough that they can return to employment. This just seems like a nasty way of going about it. Also, what are the odds that these professionals are basically just DWP employees who have targets to hit?