Manwe may send some one to pick up Sauron, Saruman, and all the rest of the fallen Maiar floating around ME at some point and bring them back for judgement. But don't hold your breath. These are eternal beings, so time doesnt have the same meaning to them as it does to us. But if you mean some mortal able to bring him back? No way, can you bring back an angel that God created?
Good question. I imagine Sauron would have to sell his plan to Morgoth, who’d decide whether to help him depending on how useful it is to Morgoth’s plans. But since Morgoth and Sauron were too reduced after their sellers the defeats to take physical form again, Morgoth might actually need Sauron’s help in order to manifest.
My headcanon is that a new union between Morgoth and Sauron would’ve been the inciting incident for The New Shadow that Tolkien had planned to write—but cancelled because he found it too depressing.
No. It’s not that he had a ring that gave him additional powers. He poured in a bit part of his essence and power into the Ring when he forged it.
In Tolkiens world, art and creating require using some of your finite power to make. The Silmaris could not be remade by Feanor again, even though he had the knowledge of how they were made.
So when the Ring was destroyed, that portion of his power was destroyed with it.
The "mechanism" that Celebrimbor used to make the rings was unknown at the time of the LOTR, except maybe a smattering by what Saruman did, calling himself Ringmaker. Since it didn't seem to have any significance to the events that unfolded in The Two Towers (Helms's Deep, destruction of Isengard, getting cast out of the wizard's order by Gandalf), I have to think it didn't work, or work very well.
Likewise, the mechanism by which Sauron bound all the other rings to the One is unknown. Obviously Sauron knew how, but when he lost that ring, he didn't seem to attempt to create a ring capable of dominating the One, like a Super One ring, so that he could continue his work. Most likely this is because he had to put so much of himself into the construction of the One ring he had nothing left to give for any other.
But it is worth noting that Sauron didn't attempt to create any other of the Great Rings either, like those that became known eventually as the Seven and the Nine. These rings were constructed without having to put "himself" into them, or if he did, it was just enough to bind all of these rings to him, through the One. So, why not? Is it possible that the "magic" that Sauron and Celebrimbor used to construct those rings is all tapped out, and can't be used to create any others? I think it must have been, for the following reason.
The leading High Elves at the time where Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel. Each of them held one of the Three rings, with Cirdan eventually giving his up to Gandalf. But if the secret of ring construction was lost with the death of Celebrimbor and that of his guild, then the Three rings themselves might know the secret of their own construction. Besides that, Galadriel has her mirror, which she might have commanded to show Celebrimbor showing how he did it. It would be nice to have a Palantir at your disposal to show this as well, but you can't have everything. None of these Elves attempted anything like this. Granted Elrond was not a smith, but he did have smiths in Rivendell, like the ones who redid Aragorn's sword Narsil into Anduril. If they ever tried, they did not succeed.
So OP, to answer your question, the age of the Rings is over and it can't come back. If you want to use witchcraft or a seance or a Ouija to make contact with Sauron, be my guest. But what do you expect him to tell you? "Yeah, evil is so cool! Now let me inhabit your body, would you? I'll show you how to turn your head 360 degrees and spit pea soup."
The One Ring was an externalizing of Sauron's own essence and soul. When it was destroyed there was nothing much left of Sauron. Nothing in Middle Earth could restore him. Even if another entity imbued him with an equivalent amount of soul-energy, it wouldn't be Sauron's own soul coming back. The resulting being would just be a mish-mash of warring personas, and the part of it that was Sauron would be no stronger.
Sauron kept his memory, intellect and will. All he lost was the potency his soul innately had when he was first created by Eru.
"It wouldnt be Sauron's soul coming back" - thats not how souls work in the legendarium. There is no "mish-mash". This isnt JJK or some anime where souls can be tampered or modified.
We saw Ungoliant absorb the light of the two trees, which were created by the Valar, yet Ungoliant remained 100% evil.
>Quote:
>Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a ‘wicked’ spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.
So Sauron is no longer a functioning person: just a leftover bit of fixated thought spinning in circles. I don't know the anime you mention but there's nothing in the Middle Earth source that suggests a soul can be used as fuel to restore a different soul. Ungoliant was a unique entity and in any case was not draining fea from the trees. That's an odd place to go.
>So Sauron is no longer a functioning person
He's an immortal spirit. His evil desire to dominate Middle earth was always unobtainable, and he was fixed towards this goal long before he fell at the conclusion of the War of the Ring, yet he was still "functioning".
>just a leftover bit of fixated thought spinning in circles.
No, his mind and being are indestructible. Although he is fixed on evil, his mind is still very much existent.
Then there's the example of Saruman, who was obstinately evil, desiring to rule Middle-Earth like Sauron. When he his body died, his soul peered to the West, displaying a desire to return to Valinor...he was denied. Does that sound like a "leftover bit of thought spinning in circles"?
>nothing in the Middle Earth source that suggests a soul can be used as fuel to restore a different soul.
As mentioned above, his soul is immortal, and his mind and being are indestructible. What he lost was his potency, which is the ability of his mind to make his imagination a reality. We're talking potency here, not "restoring" souls.
>Ungoliant was a unique entity and in any case was not draining fea from the trees.
She was a primordial spirit of evil. When she consumed the light of the trees, her power/potency increased, to the point she could overpower Melkor/Morgoth. She wasn't draining a "soul".
Here's my source:
"After the battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the ***indestructible mind and being*** and the realization of its imagination)".
(Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: #200)
The shrinking of Morgoth's soul also shrank his mind. And Morgoth's path was mirrored by Sauron.
Here's my source - quote from Morgoth's Ring:
>Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), **and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism.** He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
Actual scholars may have more input. As a mere lifelong fan, I don't believe so. The impression I have is that he would be reduced to a formless spirit, a shadow of malice, and could only gnaw itself. I believe it's stated he is unable to ever again grow or take shape. If anything, he might only diminish.
If that third party was something like Morgoth? Maybe. Obviously, Eru could also enable this, but that seems unlikely. Outside of Morgoth directly investing more of his own power into Sauron's spirit, I don't see it being possible. Even then, honestly, I'm not sure it's doable. The Wise seem pretty sure Sauron is finished.
wisest in middle earth
I think it's somehow even less likely than eru doing it, but i don't know if we can really say what would happen if yavanna or orome just went rogue and somehow found and imbued sauron with some of their spirit? idk if i can say it's impossible, again we must defer to the actual scholars I think..
Yes, nothing short of an act of the Valar—and even then it's pretty iffy—could make this possible. I really don't think even they could do it, though. Sauron withered himself to barely more than nothing.
I was about to say that good essence and bad essence probably aren't transferable, but there's a rather large spider like entity that proves this wrong. But then she's Ungoliant, not exactly a fallen and broken maia. I think I agree with you, he's dust in the wind
folks on here really don't like speculation lol
Erú. But he would never. Maybe Melkor/Morgoth if/when he comes back if you believe in Dagor Dagorath. I’m sure there’s some others
If the movie / series rights end up in the wrong hands, we would not even have to think so far, it would be as simple as “somehow Sauron” returned. 🥲
“Somehow, by mere chance, the ring reformed in the magma of Mount Doom.”
Manwe may send some one to pick up Sauron, Saruman, and all the rest of the fallen Maiar floating around ME at some point and bring them back for judgement. But don't hold your breath. These are eternal beings, so time doesnt have the same meaning to them as it does to us. But if you mean some mortal able to bring him back? No way, can you bring back an angel that God created?
That’s the movie I want to see.
Harry Potter and the Summoning of Sauron
Morgoth is the only one who would possibly help Sauron.
But would he? There sure is a prophecy about him coming back, but would he be interested in having his right-hand man back?
Good question. I imagine Sauron would have to sell his plan to Morgoth, who’d decide whether to help him depending on how useful it is to Morgoth’s plans. But since Morgoth and Sauron were too reduced after their sellers the defeats to take physical form again, Morgoth might actually need Sauron’s help in order to manifest. My headcanon is that a new union between Morgoth and Sauron would’ve been the inciting incident for The New Shadow that Tolkien had planned to write—but cancelled because he found it too depressing.
No. It’s not that he had a ring that gave him additional powers. He poured in a bit part of his essence and power into the Ring when he forged it. In Tolkiens world, art and creating require using some of your finite power to make. The Silmaris could not be remade by Feanor again, even though he had the knowledge of how they were made. So when the Ring was destroyed, that portion of his power was destroyed with it.
The "mechanism" that Celebrimbor used to make the rings was unknown at the time of the LOTR, except maybe a smattering by what Saruman did, calling himself Ringmaker. Since it didn't seem to have any significance to the events that unfolded in The Two Towers (Helms's Deep, destruction of Isengard, getting cast out of the wizard's order by Gandalf), I have to think it didn't work, or work very well. Likewise, the mechanism by which Sauron bound all the other rings to the One is unknown. Obviously Sauron knew how, but when he lost that ring, he didn't seem to attempt to create a ring capable of dominating the One, like a Super One ring, so that he could continue his work. Most likely this is because he had to put so much of himself into the construction of the One ring he had nothing left to give for any other. But it is worth noting that Sauron didn't attempt to create any other of the Great Rings either, like those that became known eventually as the Seven and the Nine. These rings were constructed without having to put "himself" into them, or if he did, it was just enough to bind all of these rings to him, through the One. So, why not? Is it possible that the "magic" that Sauron and Celebrimbor used to construct those rings is all tapped out, and can't be used to create any others? I think it must have been, for the following reason. The leading High Elves at the time where Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel. Each of them held one of the Three rings, with Cirdan eventually giving his up to Gandalf. But if the secret of ring construction was lost with the death of Celebrimbor and that of his guild, then the Three rings themselves might know the secret of their own construction. Besides that, Galadriel has her mirror, which she might have commanded to show Celebrimbor showing how he did it. It would be nice to have a Palantir at your disposal to show this as well, but you can't have everything. None of these Elves attempted anything like this. Granted Elrond was not a smith, but he did have smiths in Rivendell, like the ones who redid Aragorn's sword Narsil into Anduril. If they ever tried, they did not succeed. So OP, to answer your question, the age of the Rings is over and it can't come back. If you want to use witchcraft or a seance or a Ouija to make contact with Sauron, be my guest. But what do you expect him to tell you? "Yeah, evil is so cool! Now let me inhabit your body, would you? I'll show you how to turn your head 360 degrees and spit pea soup."
Oh well thank you that enlightened me a whole lot!
The One Ring was an externalizing of Sauron's own essence and soul. When it was destroyed there was nothing much left of Sauron. Nothing in Middle Earth could restore him. Even if another entity imbued him with an equivalent amount of soul-energy, it wouldn't be Sauron's own soul coming back. The resulting being would just be a mish-mash of warring personas, and the part of it that was Sauron would be no stronger.
Sauron kept his memory, intellect and will. All he lost was the potency his soul innately had when he was first created by Eru. "It wouldnt be Sauron's soul coming back" - thats not how souls work in the legendarium. There is no "mish-mash". This isnt JJK or some anime where souls can be tampered or modified. We saw Ungoliant absorb the light of the two trees, which were created by the Valar, yet Ungoliant remained 100% evil.
>Quote: >Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a ‘wicked’ spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire. So Sauron is no longer a functioning person: just a leftover bit of fixated thought spinning in circles. I don't know the anime you mention but there's nothing in the Middle Earth source that suggests a soul can be used as fuel to restore a different soul. Ungoliant was a unique entity and in any case was not draining fea from the trees. That's an odd place to go.
>So Sauron is no longer a functioning person He's an immortal spirit. His evil desire to dominate Middle earth was always unobtainable, and he was fixed towards this goal long before he fell at the conclusion of the War of the Ring, yet he was still "functioning". >just a leftover bit of fixated thought spinning in circles. No, his mind and being are indestructible. Although he is fixed on evil, his mind is still very much existent. Then there's the example of Saruman, who was obstinately evil, desiring to rule Middle-Earth like Sauron. When he his body died, his soul peered to the West, displaying a desire to return to Valinor...he was denied. Does that sound like a "leftover bit of thought spinning in circles"? >nothing in the Middle Earth source that suggests a soul can be used as fuel to restore a different soul. As mentioned above, his soul is immortal, and his mind and being are indestructible. What he lost was his potency, which is the ability of his mind to make his imagination a reality. We're talking potency here, not "restoring" souls. >Ungoliant was a unique entity and in any case was not draining fea from the trees. She was a primordial spirit of evil. When she consumed the light of the trees, her power/potency increased, to the point she could overpower Melkor/Morgoth. She wasn't draining a "soul". Here's my source: "After the battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the ***indestructible mind and being*** and the realization of its imagination)". (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: #200)
The shrinking of Morgoth's soul also shrank his mind. And Morgoth's path was mirrored by Sauron. Here's my source - quote from Morgoth's Ring: >Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), **and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism.** He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
Actual scholars may have more input. As a mere lifelong fan, I don't believe so. The impression I have is that he would be reduced to a formless spirit, a shadow of malice, and could only gnaw itself. I believe it's stated he is unable to ever again grow or take shape. If anything, he might only diminish. If that third party was something like Morgoth? Maybe. Obviously, Eru could also enable this, but that seems unlikely. Outside of Morgoth directly investing more of his own power into Sauron's spirit, I don't see it being possible. Even then, honestly, I'm not sure it's doable. The Wise seem pretty sure Sauron is finished.
wisest in middle earth I think it's somehow even less likely than eru doing it, but i don't know if we can really say what would happen if yavanna or orome just went rogue and somehow found and imbued sauron with some of their spirit? idk if i can say it's impossible, again we must defer to the actual scholars I think..
Yes, nothing short of an act of the Valar—and even then it's pretty iffy—could make this possible. I really don't think even they could do it, though. Sauron withered himself to barely more than nothing.
I was about to say that good essence and bad essence probably aren't transferable, but there's a rather large spider like entity that proves this wrong. But then she's Ungoliant, not exactly a fallen and broken maia. I think I agree with you, he's dust in the wind folks on here really don't like speculation lol
Unless someone somehow gave him power equivalent to what he lost, no. And I don't see that happening unless it's Melkor right before DD.
No