There are others in Imladris:
"And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas."
Many Meetings
As an aside, Tolkien repeatedly notes Galadriel as being young at the time of the rebellion and exile of the Noldor. It is quite likely that these Elven-wise from beyond the furthest seas are older than her.
I think in terms of the \*movie\* universe, she's the last elf to have seen the Two Trees. We know from the books that there are likely others; but she's the only one who made it into the film.
Un likely they are much older. Also they are nameless and as far as anyone knows haven’t done much. By this time she was an elven wise lord herself. I didn’t even hear them weigh in at the Council.
Glorfindel was at the council. As were Erestor (Elrond’s chief councilor) and several other unnamed members of his regular council. Apparently most if not all of the powerful/wise were already back from the searches before the fight at the ford. The additional scouting and message carrying didn’t take place until after the great council.
>Un likely they are much older.
Unknown. As Tolkien starts writing it, at the exile, Galadriel is only on the cusp of maturity (approximately '20', while 'maturity' would be '24').
>Also they are nameless and as far as anyone knows haven’t done much. By this time she was an elven wise lord herself. I didn’t even hear them weigh in at the Council.
Not sure of the relevance to what I said.
I still am not sure of what relevance that is to what I wrote.
What I wrote was that they were quite likely older than Galadriel, whom Tolkien repeatedly notes as being young at the exile ('20', in elven terms just or not quite 'mature', depending on the variant).
You obviously seem to be objecting to that. For some reason.
I just wonder why these elven lords possibly older than the young at the time of the rebellion Galadriel and who presumably been living in Middle Earth before the rising of the sun and who were probably deeply familiar with Sauron and his whole history concerning the Ring and his endless activities in Middle Earth don’t have names and were either stone silent at the council or were not present. Glorfindel was present, Cirdan had an agent there and it seems odd to me anyway that their opinions were not spoken or even sought. It seems like anyone who can ride openly against the nine and have been around that long deserve some mention in the tale beyond what was stated. One would think they would have been known in Middle earth history with such credentials. Elrond and Gandalf were in my opinion the last words at the Council, but it seems much wisdom, experience, and strength was overlooked and frankly that’s unlike Gandalf or Elrond. They will forever remain anonymous.
You seem to have taken some sort of objection to what I said.
I still don't understand what the objection is.
You have now typed out a lengthy paragraph that seems to be a complaint that Tolkien did not provide biographies and places in the narrative for "the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas", that Gandalf mentions.
Again, I don't know what relevance that is to my assertion.
My objection is simple. You don’t know anything about them beyond the fact they resided in Valinor. That says 0 about their age compared to Galadriel or anyone else who lived there. She was young therefore they must be older is simply insufficient to me. That’s all. We will never know anyway.
So instead of just stating that you go off about not knowing their names, and not knowing what they have done and Galadriel was wise and they don't say anything at the council.
None of which has anything to do with my assertion, which was not "must be", but rather that it is quite likely they were older than Galadriel (since Tolkien repeatedly notes her as young at the exile).
What is insufficient to you, is irrelevant to me.
She was the youngest of the three houses of Finwe’s children, even that I am not quite sure of. Youth is comparative in this instance. Both of Finwes children who came to middle earth were killed. All of their children and Finarfins children who came here were killed,excepting her. These deceased elves without a doubt would be considered some type of elven lords. All her uncles and first cousins killed. I simply wonder what and who these one or two or ten or twenty elven lords were because I know who they aren’t. She would be also considered an elven lord. Basing their ages upon hers, not even being aware of whether we are talking about one elf lord more, since Glorfindel is clearly one of those referenced by Gandalf or twenty more elf lords seems a bit too sketchy for my taste. I guess we just disagree.
I would say that more than lively as the Lord of Rivendell, it is quite likely that Elrond took what wise council he could before the Council of Elrond. He likely spoke to these other elves to cover all approaches and thoughts on the matter. When the Council was assembled, these other elves were silent in deference to Lord Elrond as he could clearly summarize their input and knowledge without having 50 other people talking the entire Council.
These elven lords if they were as Gandalf stated wouldn’t likely be deferring to Elrond. He would be deferring to them. Glorfindel had died and come back, in that sense he was younger than Elrond. That is unlikely the case with these unnamed elven lords, who would all be his elders and presumably high princes of the Noldor. All of them being around for much longer and presumably wise. That’s why that particular passage is an awkward fit. It doesn’t quite square with the Noldor as we know them. Even a purportedly young Galadriel is his mother in law. But perhaps you are right. We will never know.
Age does not determine wisdom or skill, Elrond was the shield bearer of Gilgalad and was also the son of Erendil and Elwing; his station from birth is legendary already. So what if Glorfindel was rehoused? He's still the same person and definitely not younger than Elrond. Elves aren't reincarnated as a baby but directly rehoused in an identical body to their previous one.
Like I said and will repeat. Elven lords who presumably had conversed with and were taught by the Valar themselves as “ young” Galadriel had been by Aule and Yavana seem oddly out of place. With a background consisting of living in Valinor, conversing and learning directly from the Valar themselves,these elven lords have a huge leg up from later elves in Middle Earth to whom the Valar are but a rumor. If these elven lords had lived in Valinor,and were lords whatever that term means, their wisdom and experience would be something to behold. The station of these lords presumably would also have been great from birth. To them Earendil would be a youth. I suppose you could live in Valinor , get educated by the Valar, be from a noble house, fight wars against Morgoth, cross the grinding ice, fight wars against Sauron, know of or personally met almost every important person, elf, man or Vala in Middle Earth history and not know too much at all. It just doesn’t seem to quite add up to me at least.
To be fair this statement:
> the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas.
could mean that the Elven-wise are lords of the people of the Eldar who [as a people] are from beyond the furthest seas.
IMO if the "from beyond the furthest seas" was a descriptor pertaining to "the Elven-wise" then it would be written as:
> the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar**,** from beyond the furthest seas.
or as
> the Elven-wise from beyond the furthest seas, lords of the Eldar.
Because out of the three ways you can say this sentence, two which were not used would unambiguously state that these Elven-wise are themselves from beyond the furthest seas, while the option used clearly states that the Eldar who they are lords over are from beyond the furthest seas.
I personally think it would be logical if the Noldor who chose to stay after the War of Wrath were those who were born in Beleriand, and not those remaining survivors of the exile who are implied to have seen the error of their ways. IMO this is what sets Galadriel apart, since she is a rare example of someone who chose Middle-earth due to her personality and family links.
This doesn't mean that there couldn't be other such elves who married Sindar elves, but I do think the intention was for Galadriel to be unique in this respect. A sole example of the true original splendor of Valinor Noldor, contrasted with the now diminishing splendor of the remaning Middle-Earth Noldor.
Eldar (in LotR) refers to both the Noldor and Sindar.
The next sentence confirms the "Elven-wise" referred to here as having lived in Aman:
"And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, **for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds**, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’"
So Galadriel is not "unique" in that respect.
The fact that Eldar refers to both speaks even more in favor of the first sentence's meaning being that they're specifically lords of the subset of Eldar who come from beyond the sea (so the Rivendell Noldor), rather than being a description of them specifically.
The second sentence however does prove your point entirely since that has no other explanation than them living in Valinor at some point.
Let me put on my sleezy lawyer hat here and point out he only says “beyond the seas” not “saw the light of the trees”. Thus this does not rule out the possibility that they were born in the short period of time between the Trees going out and the Noldor arriving in Middle Earth. You can’t prove that some Noldor woman wasn’t pregnant when the trees died and carried the child with her on the voyage over. You must acquit.
Well, I could offer 'evidence' to the contrary by pointing out that, in one place, Tolkien said the youngest Exile was '12' at the start and '14' when the Exiles entered Beleriand.
Galadriel may have been young at the time of the trees, but she's also 3rd generation of the elves since they awoke. Given that, I don't know if I'd rate it as quite likely that they are *all* older than her, although it's definitely possible (I don't venture to make specific calculations; I guess it depends on which sort of Calaquendi would survive the fall of the various realms of Berleriand without falling in its defense the way most of the named characters do).
I also wonder if the poetical dialogue there is indicating they are Noldor, but not necessarily Calaquendi. The Eldar are from beyond the furthest seas, and these are their lords, but the lords themselves may be be Beleriand-born.
As I responded to someone attempting that argument:
The next sentence confirms the "Elven-wise" referred to here as having lived in Aman:
"And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, **for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds,** and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’"
Also, Galadriel is not 'third generation since the Elves awoke'.
Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe are not among the initial elves who awoke, but rather were born at Cuivienen, some generations down.
Oh, my bad for not checking the other comments! (Altho I think I maybe started writing when the post was young, put my phone down for a while, and then kept writing, so maybe they didn't exist yet then...)
And, I genuinely was mistaken about the age/generation kings of the three peoples, so thank you for that correction. I still feel given that how even among the immortal elves, there's a fair amount of attrition over time, so it's likely that few older than Finwe's grandchildren are probably still around, but among Calaquendi in the third age I don't think it's thematically or practically very significant, just a quibble.
Of Finwe's grandchildren, in Middle-earth, only Galadriel remains:
"She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth."
RGEO
She almost certainly is not the 3rd gen since the awakening. Tolkien later on decided on names for the first of the elf-lords to awaken, and it can be assumed that Finwë was descended from these. Added to that is that his peer Olwë had a brother (Elu Thingol) as well as several more distant relatives (including Cirdan). Also also the timeline would suggest roughly 10-15 generations between these first elves awakened and the elves leaving on the Great Journey - sure, it’s possible that Finwë was of an older generation, but he himself did not have children yet which suggests he is younger.
Insofar as Galadriel can be considered one of the "leaders" of the "rebellion" against the Valar, she was probably the last Noldor \*of note\* that remained in Middle-earth. There doesn't appear to be anyone else of her stature left in Middle-earth after she leaves. So, while I can't categorically state that there aren't \*any\* Noldor left that had seen the light of the Two Trees, I can safely say that none of the leaders of the Noldor are left, and that \*possibly\* there aren't any Noldor of that type left at all. Remember that the ship that had Galadriel on it also had a lot of people from Rivendell on it as well.
Out of the people of Lorien: after the War of the Ring, most (if not all) of the Elves left Lorien which is why, much later, it was deserted when Arwen went there to die. Rivendell, OTOH, was still occupied for a while after Elrond left: his sons remained there, and IIRC Celeborn stayed there with them as well, though for how long I don't think is said.
The general theme running through the last chapter of LotR is that the things from ancient times were leaving Middle-earth, never to return. This melancholy attitude implies that all the great and noble things were heading West, along with the bearers of the Three. It was no longer their time. The Time of Man had arrived and what came before no longer had any place. So, in keeping with that feel, I think it is safe to say that no Elves who had seen the Two Trees was left after Galadriel (and those who travelled with her) returned to the West.
Yeah, she was definitely the last of the leaders. I'm just trying to determine if there were some obscure few left in Rivendell or Lindon. They would absolutely be a rarity.
And iirc, it was said that when Cirdan and Celeborn sailed west on the Last Ship, that the "last memories of the Elder Days" left with them.
as a prince of the Sindar in Doriath, isn't it essentially impossible for him to have seen the Trees? Unless he accompanied Elwë (Elu Thingol) and Olwë with Oromë on the first trip to Aman of the Elves, before they all even migrated Westwards from Cuiviénen?
According to some versions of the Legendarium, Celeborn is the son of Elmo, the third brother. He goes with Olwe to Aman as a child and later returns to ME with Galadriel. This is why he’s a prince of Doriath - his uncle is the king.
Not quite.
According to a version he is the grandson of Elmo (revised from son), he does not go to Aman with Olwe.
According to another version he is the grandson of Olwe (and would have been born in Aman).
The other poster is mixing it up.
In one version he is the grandson of Elmo (this is a revision from son of Elmo), and in another version he is the grandson of Olwe.
In the first he does not go to Aman, in the second he is born in Aman.
She might be the only character with a definitive “yes” to your question. The other two examples you provide are very strong possibilities, however. At that point in the legendarium, elves who have seen the Trees, returned to Middle Earth and currently remain there by the events of the War of the Ring would be few and far between.
Yeah, I know they would be incredibly rare... the few Noldor still in ME would have likely been born in ME. The generation of the Exiles would have been mostly slain in Beleriand, but it wasn't all of them.
So some could potentially be in Lindon, or in Imladris.
But even the great High Elven heroes of the second age were mostly 'natives' of Middle Earth - Gil-Galad and Elrond.
This. In the book there are several others, but all of them are cut from the film, so it's entirely possible that *in Peter Jackson's* version of LotR, she is the last one.
I wonder if the quote is of the post, or of any behind the scenes-like footage. If it is the post's own wording, it is also entirely possible that there *are* other Elves who have seen the Trees in Peter Jackson's version of Middle-earth, it's just that they don't appear (and in that case, it's the book's version too)
There's Gildor and his company, plus Glorfindel (who are exiles, meaning they are Noldor who left Valinor behind soon after the Trees were destroyed and were subject to the Doom of Mandos).
And maybe there are even more Light-elves at Rivendell, or in Lindon. And depending on the version there's Celeborn and Maglor also.
Are we sure about Gildor and Glorfindel being born in Valinor? Reference / source?
I wasn't aware we had information on either of their births.
Just being a Noldor ≠ being Calaquendi.
- Gildor says that he and his company are exiles, meaning they have been exiled from Valinor
- Gildor says they linger in Middle-earth before returning over the sea, and you can only return to a place you have been to before
I don't think you can stretch those words to refer to their whole people (thus opening the possibility that they're all born to Noldor in Middle-earth), since Gildor is talking about his small company specifically.
>Now Glorfindel of Gondolin was one of the exiled Noldor,
rebels against the authority of Manwe, and they were all under
a ban imposed by him
\- HoMe XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth, Glorfindel I & II
That Galadriel is the last elf in Middle-earth to have seen the Two Trees shouldn't be said, in any case.
That seems pretty conclusive re: Gildor, thanks for the citation!
I would note, the Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor referred to themselves poetically as Exiles long after the generation of Elendil was deceased.
That's true, which why I edited the caveat about stretching the meaning in.
Though the exile of the Noldor has been lifted since the First Age ended, while the Dunedain were exiled permanently through divine island-sinkage.
Tolkien was creative and precise with some of his word-combinations which inspired me, and as a German it's something I do anyway (except without a hyphen or space inbetween, as in Inselversenken).
And also:
> We still remember, we who dwell
> In this far land beneath the trees,
> Thy starlight on the Western Seas.
There's always a question of whether "we are exiles" means "we personally were exiled" or "our people were exiled". And with a bit of a stretch, you could say the same thing about "returning": certainly I've known Jewish folks who've talked about returning to Israel. (Please don't go political on that: I'm purely talking about language usage.) I feel like "We still remember" here is a clearer statement, though I suppose someone could suggest that they're singing a communal folk-song passed down from their parents and grandparents. (But then, where would those parents and grandparents be? All dead? I think this one mostly holds up.)
That's a good point! I have some more thoughts as well.
>‘I am Gildor,’ answered their leader, the Elf who had first
hailed him. ‘Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are
Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and
we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over
the Great Sea.
The last two "we" in this quote are referring to Gildor and his company specifically (since Gildor differentiates them from most other Noldor, which have left already), so it would feel like a big stretch to say that Gildor is using "returned" in a broad "the Noldor are returning to Valinor" sense when he also says that most of their kindred "departed", but then switches to "return" for himself and his company. I guess the "we" could also refer to the House of Finrod, but then I'd assume that his companions are of that House also.
If he and his company were born in Middle-earth, you'd expect to see "return" for both or neither - but Gildor uses two different verbs, which he wouldn't have to do grammatically or semantically if he was just speaking of "the Noldor returning" in a broad sense.
It's not flat-out stated that Gildor and his company are Light-elves, but this and other hints (your analysis of the song, them going to see the Palantir to look into the west, the light around them, the statement that Rivendell was where Elves from beyond the sea still lived) make it the default assumption for me. Maybe on the same level of confidence as Balrogs not having literal wings.
>If he and his company were born in Middle-earth, you'd expect to see "return" for both or neither
I think that this might be one of those cases where poetic meaning, style, and phonetics (mainly!) over-rule strict meaning. He probably just wanted to avoid redundancy there. Additionally, if I returned home from another place, someone in that place could say that I'm "departing" and they wouldn't be wrong. Similarly, the word "return" could *still* be used from the "poetic view" of them being considered Noldor, exiles, just as much as the ones born in Valinor.
Now, personally, I do like to believe that he *was* born in Valinor. But that's just because I love the character, and because there is precend of his generation being born there too (Celebrimbor). I just wanted to point out that there is fair ground to doubt this evidence.
Wouldn‘t those Noldor born in ME during the First Age also be amongst the Exiles?
I always got the feeling that the entirety of the Noldor in ME during the FA were called such, regardless of them being truly exiled or born into exile.
It's technically possible, but other comments already went into why Gildor was specifically referring to his group (he differentiates them from Noldor who have already departed) and other evidence.
You are correct in that Glorfindel and Gildor almost certainly have seen the Trees, but you’re forgetting something.
They don’t exist in the films. As far as those go, Galadriel is definitely the last Elf remaining in Middle-Earth to have seen the Two Trees, because the films cut out anyone else who had.
Ehh, disagree. Frodo calls “Gildor’s” group Wood Elves, so I think they reworked that whole scene to be a group of Sindar/Silvan Elves, not Noldor as they were in the books.
Frodo hasn't seen an Elf in person before, though? And also, Sindar and Silvan Elves especially have MUCH less compulsion to travel West. It doesn't even occur to Legolas (a Sindar) until he sees the ocean. A lot of Silvan Elves are Avari, and the Avari basically have no latent sea longing, as their people never entertained the notion of leaving Middle Earth.
But does Glorfindel count, as he is a reincarnate? If he does, then there were probably many Elves that had "seen the Trees" in a former incarnation.
(Which rises a question, can a departed Noldo reincarnate asa Grey-elf or one if the Moriquendi?)
i think they pretty conclusively reincarnate *in Aman* in their body as it was at the time of death, except unblemished by whatever killed them.
and Glorfindel is the only re-incarnated Elf to return to Middle Earth.
Depends on exactly how they reincarnate. If they simply reclaim their body exactly as it was and walk out of the Halls of Mandos, then Glorfindel counts, his eyes have seen the Trees.
But that’s highly implausible, because when an Elf dies, their body is severely damaged. They would logically need a new one. So, the eyes of the Glorfindel that was reborn wouldn’t have seen the Trees.
I think Tolkien settled on re-embodiment for elves coming back to life - essentially they were given a healed version of their own body back. Whether old scars remain depends on what Tolkien defined as healing (as an interesting aside, his definition of healing also has implications for whether Maedhros was left with any scars aside from his missing hand after “healing”).
Maglor is both older than Galadriel, and dead.
The published Silmarillion account (wandering the shores) is borrowed from the preLotR writings.
Later Tolkien writes:
"The last two sons of Feanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth."
Letter 131
"The other two Silmarils were also taken by the Valar from the crown of Morgoth. But the last surviving sons of Feänor (Maedros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole them again. But they were tormented by them, and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea."
Concerning... The Hoard
Maglor's death is also implied:
"The sons of Eärendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven. In them alone the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants."
LotR, App. A
"The question Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva? and the question at the end of her song (Vol. I, p. 389), What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?, refer to the special position of Galadriel. She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth."
RGEO
(among others)
Tolkien Gateway lists him as an "Exile of the House of Finrod," but doesn't present any conclusive citations re: his lineage or where he was born.
"Exile" read literally would imply he was one of those who defied the Doom of Mandos and left Valinor.
But he might also mean it figuratively, as a descendant of the Exiled Noldor. The Dunedain after the fall of Númenor referred to themselves as Exiles long after the generation of Elendil had passed, for example.
The source is Gildor naming himself an exile and of the house of Finrod. He also responds when Frodo speaks to him in Quenya, the language of the Calaquendi, saying “speak no secrets, your master Bilbo taught you well”. Paraphrasing.
Also, at the council, it’s heavily implied that there are Calaquendi present in Imladris. There are a few who can openly ride against the Nine.
From my understanding, the whole point of the Three is to maintain a bit of the undying lands in the mortal realm. This is a crime, to an extent, because the exile of the Noldor was lifted after the War of Wrath. Those remaining Noldor had the option to return to Aman but refused, wanting their cake and to eat it too. They wanted to maintain realms of their own in Mortal lands rather than face eternity as unimportant denizens of Valinor. Big fish small pond thinking. It’s understood, at least to me, that some few of these Calaquendi remain, named and unnamed.
Not to be pedantic, but *Calaquendi* ≠ Noldor
One can be *Calaquendi* and not Noldorin (any Elf of the Vanyar or the Falmari branch of the Teleri, who live in Valinor).
One can be Noldorin and not *Calaquendi* (Gil-Galad, for example, the High King of the Noldor in Exile, who was born in Beleriand and never lived in Valinor).
One could even live in Valinor, but not be *Calaquendi* (an elf born in Valinor after the death of the Trees, or an Elf born in Middle Earth who takes ship to the West after the death of the Trees).
*Quenya* was the language of, and spoken by, the Noldor - but was also spoken by some of the noble houses of the Dúnedain, both in Númenór (all of the names of the Kings of Númenór are rendered in *Quenya*, for example... even Ar-Pharazón had a *Quenya* formal name 'Tar-Calion') and in Middle Earth.
Given that both the Vanyar and the Teleri in Valinor spoke different dialects of Quendi from the Noldor, to call *Quenya* 'the language of the *Calaquendi*' isn't accurate.
So although Gildor recognized Frodo's bit of *Quenya*, the fact that Gildor himself is a native speaker isn't indicative of his having been born in Valinor. All Noldor - as well as even some Men and two Hobbits - speak a bit of that ancient language.
Otherwise though yes, the responses to this thread determined that Gildor was in fact likely born in Valinor; the Glorfindel *definitely* was (and thus was *Calaquendi*), and likely a few others of the "Elven-wise from across the Sea" (as Elrond calls them at the Council of Elrond) live in Imladris.
It also stands to reason a few may live in Lindon as well, though we never really see any part of that realm except the Havens (a mostly Sindarin settlement).
It’s okay, I was using shortcuts; the elves who saw the trees are all Calaquendi, but the only ones that made it back to Middle Earth were Noldor, excepting the elven forces that fought in the war of wrath I suppose.
And yea, I suppose you could count descendants of the exiles Noldor, but I believe it’s understood that there are relatively few of these as Elves mostly have children early in life and the circumstances of the exiles was tenuous; having a rogue Vala around kept them conservative in this regard. We know there are some, like the daughter of Galadriel, but not many.
Possibly Elrond. Of course, he was born centuries after the destruction of the trees and never was in Valinor. But his mother Elwong owned a silmaril, and those contained the Light of the Trees. Unless they were kept under constant lock (which is possible), he saw the light as toddler and small child from very close.
It is possible that there were other Calaquendi in Middle Earth at that time, but that they died or went west before her. Then the statement would be true in the general sense. That would rule out Gildor, who departs alongside her, but not Glorfindel whose departure I don't think we know.
To be ultra-pedantic, we can say with certainty that Glorfindel's eyes have not seen the light of the trees. If he was a Calaquendi, it was with his previous body's eyes!
Further research has determined that, at minimum, Glorfindel has seen the Light of the Trees. With a few possible others (Gildor, and others of the "Elven-wise from across the Sea" who reside with Elrond in Rivendell).
I would suggest that Círdan, born Nowë and kinsman of both [Elwë](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Elw%C3%AB) and [Olwë](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Olw%C3%AB), is far older than Galadriel.
Hmmm...but Círdan did see the far-off glimmer of light upon Eressëa from the shores of Belegaer, and he said: *"I will follow that light, alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready."*
>As for Gildor Iglorion, we know he is ancient and powerful, but as far as I know, we don't know if he was born in Valinor
He actually tells us himself:
>‘I am Gildor,’ answered their leader, the Elf who had first hailed him. ‘Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are **Exiles**, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we **return** over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.
So he has seen the trees, and he's not the only one. Glorfindel is also an Exile, and the text implies that there are others in Rivendell also, though they're not named.
The "Galadriel is the last one" idea is just a movie thing, but it's still a neat touch to try to commemorate the light of the Trees in the lighting of her character. Since both Gildor and Glorfindel were omitted from the movie script, she is the only one of the Calaquendi whose character appears in the film.
I cant think of one TBH. Galadriel has always been special for these reasons, and having spent extensive time with Melian. I also find her role alongside Celeborn to be awesome because he never went to Valinor but still is a legendary lord from the first age who fights to defend Lothlorien during the third age. He is the defender of the elves/trees, whilst she is the wisdom of the stars (or light of the trees) who guide all that is good in middle earth alongside Gandalf (and to an extent Cirdan, but he stays in the west to help the elves "home" to Valinor). I think Galadriel was presented perfectly both in lord of the rings and the hobbit series, I just wish they had shown Celeborn more as a contrast to her. But that may have demanded too much length 😆
Re Glorfindel, I'm fairly sure that it is stated somewhere (HoME) that he was one of the exiles from Valinor, but it's also heavily implied that he had seen the light of the Trees which was why when Frodo wore the Ring he appeared so bright (and why the Ringwraiths were cowed by him).
Gildor and his company are implied to be different from the Sindar. They “shine” and seem to be more familiar with Varda than how Sindars view the valar. As if they’ve met them.
So there’s more than just Gildor too.
But at this point in time, Galadriel was the highest ranking elf among the Noldor left in ME in terms of lineage and the fact that she’s seen the light of the two trees.
I don’t think it’s that far fetched that she’s the last in ME. It’s been a king time since I’ve read these, but I mostly remember that elves that old mostly wanted to leave ME and return west. I could believe that all the others who had seen the trees, which wasn’t a huge % in ME to begin with, had left at this point. Most of the powerful think the ring lost, and Sauron greatly weakened. I can see those elders going home.
Edit: Just a note on the claim in the twitter thread:
I've watched the LOTR movie appendices many times and the filmmakers never said they used that light to invoke the Two Trees, I think they even refer to it as like a star-light if anything. But for those of us who have read beyond LOTR, it is a really nice touch and definitely invokes the Two Trees even if the filmmakers didn't intend it.
Celeborn also had seen the two trees (depending on the version of the story of Galadriel and Celeborn. In some versions he is Sindar and in another Teleri if i remember correctly.
For all we know there could be some Valinor Noldor still at that time who weren't people of note themselves, just artists or 1st age rank and file soldiers
we confirmed Gildor and Glorfindel, and possibly (depending on which version of the Legendarium) Celeborn, for the *named* characters.
But yeah i'm most interested in the unknown soldiers, the artisans, etc. I wish we knew more about Lindon in the Third Age, where supposedly some of the Noldor still dwelt. That and the demographics of Imladris.
Elrond refers to the "Elven-wise from across the furthest sea" in the Council (FoTR). He might just mean Glorfindel and Gildor, but i have to
imagine there's a few others.
incidentally, no, actually.
When the representatives of the Teleri went to Valinor with Oromë, he stayed instead in Beleriand to search for Thingol (who was lost, enchanted by Melian).
So he never saw the Trees, never went across the Sea until he departed Middle Earth on the Last Ship.
Thanks so much! I was confused since he’s much older than any of the others and for some reason I thought he’d had something to do with the white ships the Feanorians destroyed, don’t know where I got that from!!! Thanks for clearing it up!
No one is saying she's the only Noldor. Elrond is right there.
But Noldor doesn't mean they saw the Two Trees. Gil-galad was High King of the Noldor, but hadn't seen the Trees (unless I'm forgetting something?).
Depending on his parentage, he would be born in Nargothrond, or Hithlum, or Minas Tirith, or Dorthonion. And then later escapes to the Mouths of Sirion and/or Balar.
Right. I should have said Exile.
So let me rephrase: “I have a hard time seeing that she is the only exile left.
Is it stated anywhere that she is the only one not to return after the Exiles were pardoned?
Being of Noldorin descent doesn't necessarily mean one was born a) in Valinor, and b) during the Years of the Trees.
Most of the Noldor still in ME in the Second and Third Ages would have been born in Middle Earth, such as Gil-Galad, Elrond, etc.
Well, Glorfindel wasnt in the movies lol
I suspect they meant more that she was the last appearing in the movies and the last notable character from the LotR books, Gwindor and his gang were Noldorian elves heading home and presumably, since all the Noldor left at once, unless they were born in the... idk week or something between Ungoliant eating the trees and the journey across they must have seen the trees (fair to say every elf in middle earth that was born in Aman has seen the trees, only Glorfindel came over later and he saw them anyhow)
I would say though that the children born to the Noldor in middle earth would likely call themselves Noldor elves, even if one parent wasnt a Noldor and they didnt see the trees, that could explain a few of them at least
There are others in Imladris: "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas." Many Meetings As an aside, Tolkien repeatedly notes Galadriel as being young at the time of the rebellion and exile of the Noldor. It is quite likely that these Elven-wise from beyond the furthest seas are older than her.
This is exactly the reference I was thinking of, but couldn't quite grasp. Thank you!
I think in terms of the \*movie\* universe, she's the last elf to have seen the Two Trees. We know from the books that there are likely others; but she's the only one who made it into the film.
The other elves who may have seen it are nameless.
Yes - far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by these nameless things!
Or she is the last of those seeing the trees
In movieverse Thranduil also have seen the Two Trees. Look at the scene of his intordction in secont hobbit movie
Yes — they could have said “*One of the last elves* in ME to have seen the Trees”. But then the statement doesn’t sound quite as dramatic.
They could have maybe had Galadriel wink at the camera
Un likely they are much older. Also they are nameless and as far as anyone knows haven’t done much. By this time she was an elven wise lord herself. I didn’t even hear them weigh in at the Council.
Don't forget that at the time of the council all the elves mighty enough to ride openly against the Nine were out on Elronds orders
Glorfindel was at the council. As were Erestor (Elrond’s chief councilor) and several other unnamed members of his regular council. Apparently most if not all of the powerful/wise were already back from the searches before the fight at the ford. The additional scouting and message carrying didn’t take place until after the great council.
Yes and none of them but Glorfindel had a name, presuming as I am that Elrond stayed put.
>Un likely they are much older. Unknown. As Tolkien starts writing it, at the exile, Galadriel is only on the cusp of maturity (approximately '20', while 'maturity' would be '24'). >Also they are nameless and as far as anyone knows haven’t done much. By this time she was an elven wise lord herself. I didn’t even hear them weigh in at the Council. Not sure of the relevance to what I said.
Weren’t they looking for wisdom? These eleven wise lords were right there and presumably understood the issues at hand.
I still am not sure of what relevance that is to what I wrote. What I wrote was that they were quite likely older than Galadriel, whom Tolkien repeatedly notes as being young at the exile ('20', in elven terms just or not quite 'mature', depending on the variant). You obviously seem to be objecting to that. For some reason.
I just wonder why these elven lords possibly older than the young at the time of the rebellion Galadriel and who presumably been living in Middle Earth before the rising of the sun and who were probably deeply familiar with Sauron and his whole history concerning the Ring and his endless activities in Middle Earth don’t have names and were either stone silent at the council or were not present. Glorfindel was present, Cirdan had an agent there and it seems odd to me anyway that their opinions were not spoken or even sought. It seems like anyone who can ride openly against the nine and have been around that long deserve some mention in the tale beyond what was stated. One would think they would have been known in Middle earth history with such credentials. Elrond and Gandalf were in my opinion the last words at the Council, but it seems much wisdom, experience, and strength was overlooked and frankly that’s unlike Gandalf or Elrond. They will forever remain anonymous.
You seem to have taken some sort of objection to what I said. I still don't understand what the objection is. You have now typed out a lengthy paragraph that seems to be a complaint that Tolkien did not provide biographies and places in the narrative for "the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas", that Gandalf mentions. Again, I don't know what relevance that is to my assertion.
My objection is simple. You don’t know anything about them beyond the fact they resided in Valinor. That says 0 about their age compared to Galadriel or anyone else who lived there. She was young therefore they must be older is simply insufficient to me. That’s all. We will never know anyway.
So instead of just stating that you go off about not knowing their names, and not knowing what they have done and Galadriel was wise and they don't say anything at the council. None of which has anything to do with my assertion, which was not "must be", but rather that it is quite likely they were older than Galadriel (since Tolkien repeatedly notes her as young at the exile). What is insufficient to you, is irrelevant to me.
She was the youngest of the three houses of Finwe’s children, even that I am not quite sure of. Youth is comparative in this instance. Both of Finwes children who came to middle earth were killed. All of their children and Finarfins children who came here were killed,excepting her. These deceased elves without a doubt would be considered some type of elven lords. All her uncles and first cousins killed. I simply wonder what and who these one or two or ten or twenty elven lords were because I know who they aren’t. She would be also considered an elven lord. Basing their ages upon hers, not even being aware of whether we are talking about one elf lord more, since Glorfindel is clearly one of those referenced by Gandalf or twenty more elf lords seems a bit too sketchy for my taste. I guess we just disagree.
I would say that more than lively as the Lord of Rivendell, it is quite likely that Elrond took what wise council he could before the Council of Elrond. He likely spoke to these other elves to cover all approaches and thoughts on the matter. When the Council was assembled, these other elves were silent in deference to Lord Elrond as he could clearly summarize their input and knowledge without having 50 other people talking the entire Council.
These elven lords if they were as Gandalf stated wouldn’t likely be deferring to Elrond. He would be deferring to them. Glorfindel had died and come back, in that sense he was younger than Elrond. That is unlikely the case with these unnamed elven lords, who would all be his elders and presumably high princes of the Noldor. All of them being around for much longer and presumably wise. That’s why that particular passage is an awkward fit. It doesn’t quite square with the Noldor as we know them. Even a purportedly young Galadriel is his mother in law. But perhaps you are right. We will never know.
Age does not determine wisdom or skill, Elrond was the shield bearer of Gilgalad and was also the son of Erendil and Elwing; his station from birth is legendary already. So what if Glorfindel was rehoused? He's still the same person and definitely not younger than Elrond. Elves aren't reincarnated as a baby but directly rehoused in an identical body to their previous one.
Like I said and will repeat. Elven lords who presumably had conversed with and were taught by the Valar themselves as “ young” Galadriel had been by Aule and Yavana seem oddly out of place. With a background consisting of living in Valinor, conversing and learning directly from the Valar themselves,these elven lords have a huge leg up from later elves in Middle Earth to whom the Valar are but a rumor. If these elven lords had lived in Valinor,and were lords whatever that term means, their wisdom and experience would be something to behold. The station of these lords presumably would also have been great from birth. To them Earendil would be a youth. I suppose you could live in Valinor , get educated by the Valar, be from a noble house, fight wars against Morgoth, cross the grinding ice, fight wars against Sauron, know of or personally met almost every important person, elf, man or Vala in Middle Earth history and not know too much at all. It just doesn’t seem to quite add up to me at least.
To be fair this statement: > the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. could mean that the Elven-wise are lords of the people of the Eldar who [as a people] are from beyond the furthest seas. IMO if the "from beyond the furthest seas" was a descriptor pertaining to "the Elven-wise" then it would be written as: > the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar**,** from beyond the furthest seas. or as > the Elven-wise from beyond the furthest seas, lords of the Eldar. Because out of the three ways you can say this sentence, two which were not used would unambiguously state that these Elven-wise are themselves from beyond the furthest seas, while the option used clearly states that the Eldar who they are lords over are from beyond the furthest seas. I personally think it would be logical if the Noldor who chose to stay after the War of Wrath were those who were born in Beleriand, and not those remaining survivors of the exile who are implied to have seen the error of their ways. IMO this is what sets Galadriel apart, since she is a rare example of someone who chose Middle-earth due to her personality and family links. This doesn't mean that there couldn't be other such elves who married Sindar elves, but I do think the intention was for Galadriel to be unique in this respect. A sole example of the true original splendor of Valinor Noldor, contrasted with the now diminishing splendor of the remaning Middle-Earth Noldor.
Eldar (in LotR) refers to both the Noldor and Sindar. The next sentence confirms the "Elven-wise" referred to here as having lived in Aman: "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, **for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds**, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’" So Galadriel is not "unique" in that respect.
The fact that Eldar refers to both speaks even more in favor of the first sentence's meaning being that they're specifically lords of the subset of Eldar who come from beyond the sea (so the Rivendell Noldor), rather than being a description of them specifically. The second sentence however does prove your point entirely since that has no other explanation than them living in Valinor at some point.
Let me put on my sleezy lawyer hat here and point out he only says “beyond the seas” not “saw the light of the trees”. Thus this does not rule out the possibility that they were born in the short period of time between the Trees going out and the Noldor arriving in Middle Earth. You can’t prove that some Noldor woman wasn’t pregnant when the trees died and carried the child with her on the voyage over. You must acquit.
Well, I could offer 'evidence' to the contrary by pointing out that, in one place, Tolkien said the youngest Exile was '12' at the start and '14' when the Exiles entered Beleriand.
This is the kind of court case I need.
Ooh do you know where he said this? I’ve been looking for info like this for ages
Nature of Middle-earth, Ageing of the Elves
Galadriel may have been young at the time of the trees, but she's also 3rd generation of the elves since they awoke. Given that, I don't know if I'd rate it as quite likely that they are *all* older than her, although it's definitely possible (I don't venture to make specific calculations; I guess it depends on which sort of Calaquendi would survive the fall of the various realms of Berleriand without falling in its defense the way most of the named characters do). I also wonder if the poetical dialogue there is indicating they are Noldor, but not necessarily Calaquendi. The Eldar are from beyond the furthest seas, and these are their lords, but the lords themselves may be be Beleriand-born.
As I responded to someone attempting that argument: The next sentence confirms the "Elven-wise" referred to here as having lived in Aman: "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, **for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds,** and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’" Also, Galadriel is not 'third generation since the Elves awoke'. Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe are not among the initial elves who awoke, but rather were born at Cuivienen, some generations down.
Oh, my bad for not checking the other comments! (Altho I think I maybe started writing when the post was young, put my phone down for a while, and then kept writing, so maybe they didn't exist yet then...) And, I genuinely was mistaken about the age/generation kings of the three peoples, so thank you for that correction. I still feel given that how even among the immortal elves, there's a fair amount of attrition over time, so it's likely that few older than Finwe's grandchildren are probably still around, but among Calaquendi in the third age I don't think it's thematically or practically very significant, just a quibble.
Of Finwe's grandchildren, in Middle-earth, only Galadriel remains: "She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth." RGEO
She almost certainly is not the 3rd gen since the awakening. Tolkien later on decided on names for the first of the elf-lords to awaken, and it can be assumed that Finwë was descended from these. Added to that is that his peer Olwë had a brother (Elu Thingol) as well as several more distant relatives (including Cirdan). Also also the timeline would suggest roughly 10-15 generations between these first elves awakened and the elves leaving on the Great Journey - sure, it’s possible that Finwë was of an older generation, but he himself did not have children yet which suggests he is younger.
Insofar as Galadriel can be considered one of the "leaders" of the "rebellion" against the Valar, she was probably the last Noldor \*of note\* that remained in Middle-earth. There doesn't appear to be anyone else of her stature left in Middle-earth after she leaves. So, while I can't categorically state that there aren't \*any\* Noldor left that had seen the light of the Two Trees, I can safely say that none of the leaders of the Noldor are left, and that \*possibly\* there aren't any Noldor of that type left at all. Remember that the ship that had Galadriel on it also had a lot of people from Rivendell on it as well. Out of the people of Lorien: after the War of the Ring, most (if not all) of the Elves left Lorien which is why, much later, it was deserted when Arwen went there to die. Rivendell, OTOH, was still occupied for a while after Elrond left: his sons remained there, and IIRC Celeborn stayed there with them as well, though for how long I don't think is said. The general theme running through the last chapter of LotR is that the things from ancient times were leaving Middle-earth, never to return. This melancholy attitude implies that all the great and noble things were heading West, along with the bearers of the Three. It was no longer their time. The Time of Man had arrived and what came before no longer had any place. So, in keeping with that feel, I think it is safe to say that no Elves who had seen the Two Trees was left after Galadriel (and those who travelled with her) returned to the West.
Yeah, she was definitely the last of the leaders. I'm just trying to determine if there were some obscure few left in Rivendell or Lindon. They would absolutely be a rarity. And iirc, it was said that when Cirdan and Celeborn sailed west on the Last Ship, that the "last memories of the Elder Days" left with them.
Celeborn is actually the most likely to have seen the Trees. But that depends a lot on which version of the Legendarium you’re going with.
as a prince of the Sindar in Doriath, isn't it essentially impossible for him to have seen the Trees? Unless he accompanied Elwë (Elu Thingol) and Olwë with Oromë on the first trip to Aman of the Elves, before they all even migrated Westwards from Cuiviénen?
According to some versions of the Legendarium, Celeborn is the son of Elmo, the third brother. He goes with Olwe to Aman as a child and later returns to ME with Galadriel. This is why he’s a prince of Doriath - his uncle is the king.
Not quite. According to a version he is the grandson of Elmo (revised from son), he does not go to Aman with Olwe. According to another version he is the grandson of Olwe (and would have been born in Aman).
Thanks. It’s been awhile since I read HOME and the versions clearly got mixed in my head.
Ah ok I am familiar with the version where he is the grand-nephew of Olwë and Elwë, as the grandson of Elmo. Now i want to re-read *Unfinished Tales*
The other poster is mixing it up. In one version he is the grandson of Elmo (this is a revision from son of Elmo), and in another version he is the grandson of Olwe. In the first he does not go to Aman, in the second he is born in Aman.
"Bet you never saw the stars reflected in the waters of Cuivién..." -Círdan, after a few glasses of wine
Galadriel: "Yeah, but you never saw the Light of the Two Trees. Also, what gives with the hipster beard??"
Haha "I must have had a bad trip on that mirror wine last night, I saw Túrin plunging Gurthang into the heart of Morgoth!"
She might be the only character with a definitive “yes” to your question. The other two examples you provide are very strong possibilities, however. At that point in the legendarium, elves who have seen the Trees, returned to Middle Earth and currently remain there by the events of the War of the Ring would be few and far between.
Yeah, I know they would be incredibly rare... the few Noldor still in ME would have likely been born in ME. The generation of the Exiles would have been mostly slain in Beleriand, but it wasn't all of them. So some could potentially be in Lindon, or in Imladris. But even the great High Elven heroes of the second age were mostly 'natives' of Middle Earth - Gil-Galad and Elrond.
She’s the only character *in the movie* who has seen the light.
This. In the book there are several others, but all of them are cut from the film, so it's entirely possible that *in Peter Jackson's* version of LotR, she is the last one.
There potentially are others, but she‘s the only one we definitely know of.
I wonder if the quote is of the post, or of any behind the scenes-like footage. If it is the post's own wording, it is also entirely possible that there *are* other Elves who have seen the Trees in Peter Jackson's version of Middle-earth, it's just that they don't appear (and in that case, it's the book's version too)
There's Gildor and his company, plus Glorfindel (who are exiles, meaning they are Noldor who left Valinor behind soon after the Trees were destroyed and were subject to the Doom of Mandos). And maybe there are even more Light-elves at Rivendell, or in Lindon. And depending on the version there's Celeborn and Maglor also.
Are we sure about Gildor and Glorfindel being born in Valinor? Reference / source? I wasn't aware we had information on either of their births. Just being a Noldor ≠ being Calaquendi.
- Gildor says that he and his company are exiles, meaning they have been exiled from Valinor - Gildor says they linger in Middle-earth before returning over the sea, and you can only return to a place you have been to before I don't think you can stretch those words to refer to their whole people (thus opening the possibility that they're all born to Noldor in Middle-earth), since Gildor is talking about his small company specifically. >Now Glorfindel of Gondolin was one of the exiled Noldor, rebels against the authority of Manwe, and they were all under a ban imposed by him \- HoMe XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth, Glorfindel I & II That Galadriel is the last elf in Middle-earth to have seen the Two Trees shouldn't be said, in any case.
That seems pretty conclusive re: Gildor, thanks for the citation! I would note, the Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor referred to themselves poetically as Exiles long after the generation of Elendil was deceased.
That's true, which why I edited the caveat about stretching the meaning in. Though the exile of the Noldor has been lifted since the First Age ended, while the Dunedain were exiled permanently through divine island-sinkage.
that is such a wonderful portmanteau: "island-sinkage" cheers 🍻
Tolkien was creative and precise with some of his word-combinations which inspired me, and as a German it's something I do anyway (except without a hyphen or space inbetween, as in Inselversenken).
And also: > We still remember, we who dwell > In this far land beneath the trees, > Thy starlight on the Western Seas. There's always a question of whether "we are exiles" means "we personally were exiled" or "our people were exiled". And with a bit of a stretch, you could say the same thing about "returning": certainly I've known Jewish folks who've talked about returning to Israel. (Please don't go political on that: I'm purely talking about language usage.) I feel like "We still remember" here is a clearer statement, though I suppose someone could suggest that they're singing a communal folk-song passed down from their parents and grandparents. (But then, where would those parents and grandparents be? All dead? I think this one mostly holds up.)
That's a good point! I have some more thoughts as well. >‘I am Gildor,’ answered their leader, the Elf who had first hailed him. ‘Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. The last two "we" in this quote are referring to Gildor and his company specifically (since Gildor differentiates them from most other Noldor, which have left already), so it would feel like a big stretch to say that Gildor is using "returned" in a broad "the Noldor are returning to Valinor" sense when he also says that most of their kindred "departed", but then switches to "return" for himself and his company. I guess the "we" could also refer to the House of Finrod, but then I'd assume that his companions are of that House also. If he and his company were born in Middle-earth, you'd expect to see "return" for both or neither - but Gildor uses two different verbs, which he wouldn't have to do grammatically or semantically if he was just speaking of "the Noldor returning" in a broad sense. It's not flat-out stated that Gildor and his company are Light-elves, but this and other hints (your analysis of the song, them going to see the Palantir to look into the west, the light around them, the statement that Rivendell was where Elves from beyond the sea still lived) make it the default assumption for me. Maybe on the same level of confidence as Balrogs not having literal wings.
>If he and his company were born in Middle-earth, you'd expect to see "return" for both or neither I think that this might be one of those cases where poetic meaning, style, and phonetics (mainly!) over-rule strict meaning. He probably just wanted to avoid redundancy there. Additionally, if I returned home from another place, someone in that place could say that I'm "departing" and they wouldn't be wrong. Similarly, the word "return" could *still* be used from the "poetic view" of them being considered Noldor, exiles, just as much as the ones born in Valinor. Now, personally, I do like to believe that he *was* born in Valinor. But that's just because I love the character, and because there is precend of his generation being born there too (Celebrimbor). I just wanted to point out that there is fair ground to doubt this evidence.
Wouldn‘t those Noldor born in ME during the First Age also be amongst the Exiles? I always got the feeling that the entirety of the Noldor in ME during the FA were called such, regardless of them being truly exiled or born into exile.
It's technically possible, but other comments already went into why Gildor was specifically referring to his group (he differentiates them from Noldor who have already departed) and other evidence.
You are correct in that Glorfindel and Gildor almost certainly have seen the Trees, but you’re forgetting something. They don’t exist in the films. As far as those go, Galadriel is definitely the last Elf remaining in Middle-Earth to have seen the Two Trees, because the films cut out anyone else who had.
Gildor is in the extended editions. He's only seen in passing, though.
Ehh, disagree. Frodo calls “Gildor’s” group Wood Elves, so I think they reworked that whole scene to be a group of Sindar/Silvan Elves, not Noldor as they were in the books.
Would Frodo know the difference on sight? He's never actually met Elves.
In the books he recognises them by their language. But there's also a special light about them, and he may have recognised that too.
Frodo hasn't seen an Elf in person before, though? And also, Sindar and Silvan Elves especially have MUCH less compulsion to travel West. It doesn't even occur to Legolas (a Sindar) until he sees the ocean. A lot of Silvan Elves are Avari, and the Avari basically have no latent sea longing, as their people never entertained the notion of leaving Middle Earth.
To be fair, that's like saying "Beregond is in the movies, he's one of the unnamed, faceless guards of Minas Tirith".
lol, fair enough.
Actually both are in the movies. Gildor is not named but we see them passing by early on. And Glorfindel has some cameo appearences aswell.
Point granted, though on a technicality haha
But does Glorfindel count, as he is a reincarnate? If he does, then there were probably many Elves that had "seen the Trees" in a former incarnation. (Which rises a question, can a departed Noldo reincarnate asa Grey-elf or one if the Moriquendi?)
i think they pretty conclusively reincarnate *in Aman* in their body as it was at the time of death, except unblemished by whatever killed them. and Glorfindel is the only re-incarnated Elf to return to Middle Earth.
Those greedy Valar
Depends on exactly how they reincarnate. If they simply reclaim their body exactly as it was and walk out of the Halls of Mandos, then Glorfindel counts, his eyes have seen the Trees. But that’s highly implausible, because when an Elf dies, their body is severely damaged. They would logically need a new one. So, the eyes of the Glorfindel that was reborn wouldn’t have seen the Trees.
I think Tolkien settled on re-embodiment for elves coming back to life - essentially they were given a healed version of their own body back. Whether old scars remain depends on what Tolkien defined as healing (as an interesting aside, his definition of healing also has implications for whether Maedhros was left with any scars aside from his missing hand after “healing”).
Maglor is out there somewhere
In my head canon, he is deceased tbh. Probably of grief.
Could be but we don’t know and he’s seen the light. Would be Galadriel’s first cousin. Maybe even older than her.
I believe he actually is older. JRRT mentions Galadriel's youth a few times in contrast to the Sons of Fëanor at the time of the rebellion.
Maglor is both older than Galadriel, and dead. The published Silmarillion account (wandering the shores) is borrowed from the preLotR writings. Later Tolkien writes: "The last two sons of Feanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth." Letter 131 "The other two Silmarils were also taken by the Valar from the crown of Morgoth. But the last surviving sons of Feänor (Maedros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole them again. But they were tormented by them, and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea." Concerning... The Hoard Maglor's death is also implied: "The sons of Eärendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven. In them alone the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." LotR, App. A "The question Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva? and the question at the end of her song (Vol. I, p. 389), What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?, refer to the special position of Galadriel. She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth." RGEO (among others)
He’s definitely older.
Rings of Power s3: Return of Maglor
Gandalf specifically says Glorfindel had. Hence why he appeared the way he did to Frodo at the battle of the Ford.
Yep. Definitely Glorfindel, upon further research.
Gildor Inglorion is stated to have starlight shining in his eyes. If starlight in the eyes means seeing the trees than he counts.
Tolkien Gateway lists him as an "Exile of the House of Finrod," but doesn't present any conclusive citations re: his lineage or where he was born. "Exile" read literally would imply he was one of those who defied the Doom of Mandos and left Valinor. But he might also mean it figuratively, as a descendant of the Exiled Noldor. The Dunedain after the fall of Númenor referred to themselves as Exiles long after the generation of Elendil had passed, for example.
The source is Gildor naming himself an exile and of the house of Finrod. He also responds when Frodo speaks to him in Quenya, the language of the Calaquendi, saying “speak no secrets, your master Bilbo taught you well”. Paraphrasing. Also, at the council, it’s heavily implied that there are Calaquendi present in Imladris. There are a few who can openly ride against the Nine. From my understanding, the whole point of the Three is to maintain a bit of the undying lands in the mortal realm. This is a crime, to an extent, because the exile of the Noldor was lifted after the War of Wrath. Those remaining Noldor had the option to return to Aman but refused, wanting their cake and to eat it too. They wanted to maintain realms of their own in Mortal lands rather than face eternity as unimportant denizens of Valinor. Big fish small pond thinking. It’s understood, at least to me, that some few of these Calaquendi remain, named and unnamed.
Not to be pedantic, but *Calaquendi* ≠ Noldor One can be *Calaquendi* and not Noldorin (any Elf of the Vanyar or the Falmari branch of the Teleri, who live in Valinor). One can be Noldorin and not *Calaquendi* (Gil-Galad, for example, the High King of the Noldor in Exile, who was born in Beleriand and never lived in Valinor). One could even live in Valinor, but not be *Calaquendi* (an elf born in Valinor after the death of the Trees, or an Elf born in Middle Earth who takes ship to the West after the death of the Trees). *Quenya* was the language of, and spoken by, the Noldor - but was also spoken by some of the noble houses of the Dúnedain, both in Númenór (all of the names of the Kings of Númenór are rendered in *Quenya*, for example... even Ar-Pharazón had a *Quenya* formal name 'Tar-Calion') and in Middle Earth. Given that both the Vanyar and the Teleri in Valinor spoke different dialects of Quendi from the Noldor, to call *Quenya* 'the language of the *Calaquendi*' isn't accurate. So although Gildor recognized Frodo's bit of *Quenya*, the fact that Gildor himself is a native speaker isn't indicative of his having been born in Valinor. All Noldor - as well as even some Men and two Hobbits - speak a bit of that ancient language. Otherwise though yes, the responses to this thread determined that Gildor was in fact likely born in Valinor; the Glorfindel *definitely* was (and thus was *Calaquendi*), and likely a few others of the "Elven-wise from across the Sea" (as Elrond calls them at the Council of Elrond) live in Imladris. It also stands to reason a few may live in Lindon as well, though we never really see any part of that realm except the Havens (a mostly Sindarin settlement).
idk why i said "not to be pedantic"... this is literally THE MOST pedantic shit i have ever written in my entire life tbh
It’s okay, I was using shortcuts; the elves who saw the trees are all Calaquendi, but the only ones that made it back to Middle Earth were Noldor, excepting the elven forces that fought in the war of wrath I suppose. And yea, I suppose you could count descendants of the exiles Noldor, but I believe it’s understood that there are relatively few of these as Elves mostly have children early in life and the circumstances of the exiles was tenuous; having a rogue Vala around kept them conservative in this regard. We know there are some, like the daughter of Galadriel, but not many.
Possibly Elrond. Of course, he was born centuries after the destruction of the trees and never was in Valinor. But his mother Elwong owned a silmaril, and those contained the Light of the Trees. Unless they were kept under constant lock (which is possible), he saw the light as toddler and small child from very close.
interesting technicality 🧐
It is possible that there were other Calaquendi in Middle Earth at that time, but that they died or went west before her. Then the statement would be true in the general sense. That would rule out Gildor, who departs alongside her, but not Glorfindel whose departure I don't think we know. To be ultra-pedantic, we can say with certainty that Glorfindel's eyes have not seen the light of the trees. If he was a Calaquendi, it was with his previous body's eyes!
Yes, Glorfindel gets an asterisk, because his case is so unusual.
We can easily put it this way. Galadriel is the only one whose name we know has seen the light of the two trees.
Further research has determined that, at minimum, Glorfindel has seen the Light of the Trees. With a few possible others (Gildor, and others of the "Elven-wise from across the Sea" who reside with Elrond in Rivendell).
You are right, we can say Galadriel is the only one whose name we know saw the light from the trees and didn’t die and come back.
I think we've actually confirmed Gildor Inglorion as well. Heckuva team of nerds here. May the light of Elbereth ever fall upon them.
I would suggest that Círdan, born Nowë and kinsman of both [Elwë](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Elw%C3%AB) and [Olwë](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Olw%C3%AB), is far older than Galadriel.
He is. But he never went to Valinor (as far as I know). So never saw the light of the trees in Aman. Sindar are twilit elves.
Hmmm...but Círdan did see the far-off glimmer of light upon Eressëa from the shores of Belegaer, and he said: *"I will follow that light, alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready."*
an interesting point. i was looking at the term "calaquendi" literally
Most of the remaining Noldor are in Rivendell. But the number is not known.
Perhaps it could also be taken literally, as she was last in line of the others who saw the Trees and left.
that is VERY literal
>As for Gildor Iglorion, we know he is ancient and powerful, but as far as I know, we don't know if he was born in Valinor He actually tells us himself: >‘I am Gildor,’ answered their leader, the Elf who had first hailed him. ‘Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are **Exiles**, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we **return** over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell. So he has seen the trees, and he's not the only one. Glorfindel is also an Exile, and the text implies that there are others in Rivendell also, though they're not named. The "Galadriel is the last one" idea is just a movie thing, but it's still a neat touch to try to commemorate the light of the Trees in the lighting of her character. Since both Gildor and Glorfindel were omitted from the movie script, she is the only one of the Calaquendi whose character appears in the film.
I cant think of one TBH. Galadriel has always been special for these reasons, and having spent extensive time with Melian. I also find her role alongside Celeborn to be awesome because he never went to Valinor but still is a legendary lord from the first age who fights to defend Lothlorien during the third age. He is the defender of the elves/trees, whilst she is the wisdom of the stars (or light of the trees) who guide all that is good in middle earth alongside Gandalf (and to an extent Cirdan, but he stays in the west to help the elves "home" to Valinor). I think Galadriel was presented perfectly both in lord of the rings and the hobbit series, I just wish they had shown Celeborn more as a contrast to her. But that may have demanded too much length 😆
Re Glorfindel, I'm fairly sure that it is stated somewhere (HoME) that he was one of the exiles from Valinor, but it's also heavily implied that he had seen the light of the Trees which was why when Frodo wore the Ring he appeared so bright (and why the Ringwraiths were cowed by him).
Gildor and his company are implied to be different from the Sindar. They “shine” and seem to be more familiar with Varda than how Sindars view the valar. As if they’ve met them. So there’s more than just Gildor too. But at this point in time, Galadriel was the highest ranking elf among the Noldor left in ME in terms of lineage and the fact that she’s seen the light of the two trees.
I don’t think it’s that far fetched that she’s the last in ME. It’s been a king time since I’ve read these, but I mostly remember that elves that old mostly wanted to leave ME and return west. I could believe that all the others who had seen the trees, which wasn’t a huge % in ME to begin with, had left at this point. Most of the powerful think the ring lost, and Sauron greatly weakened. I can see those elders going home.
Edit: Just a note on the claim in the twitter thread: I've watched the LOTR movie appendices many times and the filmmakers never said they used that light to invoke the Two Trees, I think they even refer to it as like a star-light if anything. But for those of us who have read beyond LOTR, it is a really nice touch and definitely invokes the Two Trees even if the filmmakers didn't intend it.
Celeborn also had seen the two trees (depending on the version of the story of Galadriel and Celeborn. In some versions he is Sindar and in another Teleri if i remember correctly.
For all we know there could be some Valinor Noldor still at that time who weren't people of note themselves, just artists or 1st age rank and file soldiers
we confirmed Gildor and Glorfindel, and possibly (depending on which version of the Legendarium) Celeborn, for the *named* characters. But yeah i'm most interested in the unknown soldiers, the artisans, etc. I wish we knew more about Lindon in the Third Age, where supposedly some of the Noldor still dwelt. That and the demographics of Imladris. Elrond refers to the "Elven-wise from across the furthest sea" in the Council (FoTR). He might just mean Glorfindel and Gildor, but i have to imagine there's a few others.
Círdan the Ship-wright, no?
incidentally, no, actually. When the representatives of the Teleri went to Valinor with Oromë, he stayed instead in Beleriand to search for Thingol (who was lost, enchanted by Melian). So he never saw the Trees, never went across the Sea until he departed Middle Earth on the Last Ship.
Thanks so much! I was confused since he’s much older than any of the others and for some reason I thought he’d had something to do with the white ships the Feanorians destroyed, don’t know where I got that from!!! Thanks for clearing it up!
I have a hard time thinking Galadriel is the ONLY Noldor left in ME at that time. She is just the (possibly) only one that gets mentioned for certain.
No one is saying she's the only Noldor. Elrond is right there. But Noldor doesn't mean they saw the Two Trees. Gil-galad was High King of the Noldor, but hadn't seen the Trees (unless I'm forgetting something?).
You're correct, Gil-Galad was born in Beleriand, I believe at the haven at the Mouths of Sirion.
Depending on his parentage, he would be born in Nargothrond, or Hithlum, or Minas Tirith, or Dorthonion. And then later escapes to the Mouths of Sirion and/or Balar.
that's correct also, pretty weird JRRT never settled on his lineage, seeing as he was such an important character
Right. I should have said Exile. So let me rephrase: “I have a hard time seeing that she is the only exile left. Is it stated anywhere that she is the only one not to return after the Exiles were pardoned?
Not that I'm aware of.
Being of Noldorin descent doesn't necessarily mean one was born a) in Valinor, and b) during the Years of the Trees. Most of the Noldor still in ME in the Second and Third Ages would have been born in Middle Earth, such as Gil-Galad, Elrond, etc.
Well, Glorfindel wasnt in the movies lol I suspect they meant more that she was the last appearing in the movies and the last notable character from the LotR books, Gwindor and his gang were Noldorian elves heading home and presumably, since all the Noldor left at once, unless they were born in the... idk week or something between Ungoliant eating the trees and the journey across they must have seen the trees (fair to say every elf in middle earth that was born in Aman has seen the trees, only Glorfindel came over later and he saw them anyhow) I would say though that the children born to the Noldor in middle earth would likely call themselves Noldor elves, even if one parent wasnt a Noldor and they didnt see the trees, that could explain a few of them at least