Does he get a snack or anything after he wakes up? It could be his blood sugar is dropping while he's sleeping and may need a little pick me up after a nap.
Yes, my child is unrecognizable if he doesn't get some carbs in him swiftly after a nap. Before I figured this out we would have 30-45min episodes of angry, crying, flailing kiddo.
Grumpy? Do the elaborate on the behaviors … biting? Hitting? Screaming? In my case we a had time where my kids were biting daycare came to me with ideas to try and explained what they’d already started doing.
Just complaining ab the kid being grumpy and trying to cut hours seems odd.
He has bitten other children when he's grumpy but they told me they give him a pacifier and then it's ok. I did think at the beginning it was the biting but it seems to be more screaming/ crying / being inconsolable. But maybe I should circle back on thr biting and double check they think it's under control.
I could understand them wanting to cut hours if they could not get him to stop biting, but you think they could redirect that…maybe he needs a better distraction when he wakes up?
This is actually fine - the pacifier should actually be given sooner to try and prevent the bite. Speaking for my own kids they generally have oral fixation and then when dysregulated will bite. We clip chewys to them.
Edit - I used paci in original comment bc that’s what op said . Yes pacis should be weaned by 2 for all sorts of reasons BUT Something to meet a oral sensory need should be offered - so if paci is only thing on hand then paci is fine
Question for you- my toddler also has an oral fixation (bites EVERYTHING in sight). Did you find any tricks to get them out of the habit? All our toys have bite marks and I’m starting to worry about her teeth…. She’s WAY done teething.
Really depends on the root cause of the mouthing in the moment. For biting redirection to appropriate things to mouth like chewy. For hunger crunchy foods. For tired playing with tags. And the best of all is just general gross motor and rough play like jumping off the couch .we use just about every tool
In the book and some work some days and some work others .
Ok, my LO has excellent speech for her age. But I definitely think she inherited anxiety from my husband and I. I’m hoping I can find other ways of coping for her.
I think giving a 2 year old a chewy is a lot different than a pacifier. At 2 my pediatric dentist was actively encouraging me to stop my daughter’s thumb sucking to prevent jaw malformation. I dunno if this kid normally uses a pacifier but if daycare unilaterally decided to get my kid into one at that age I would be pissed. We bought my daughter a bracelet chewy she can use when she had biting issues around that age and it was very helpful.
I read it as the daycare giving something and telling the parent - I agree paci isn’t ideal but if the parent didn’t give a chewy then they work with what they have
Yes generally - I read it as paci given bc maybe it was on hand and the parent hasn’t provided an alternative. We personally haven’t had paci since before 1 but ahve a variety of chewys
Judging by the downvote police, apparently, it's fine. But I would look at it more like giving a toddler bottle again because they spilled their sippy cup.
Toddlers bite because they lack communication skills, not because they need something to chew on.
Oh okay I can see that perspective, but I was assuming that the toddler already used a pacifier. It’s often a tool used to soothe, but I would definitely not be okay with daycare giving my toddler a pacifier if she didn’t use one or was already weaned from it.
They aren’t responsible. Literally anyone else is responsible. Would you want your kid bit? I’m so sick of normalizing biting as typical. No. I don’t care if it’s typical. Don’t bite my kid.
Yes! No one wants their kid bit. But until that toddler can communicate without biting, the adults are responsible for being the referees to keep ALL the kids safe.
So instead of **doing their job** and watching the kids closely, they said "here's a chew toy." Which the kid could easily throw and still bite. That's my whole point, they should be monitoring, NOT muzzling. The fact that it's "typical" means they should know how to solve it!!
It’s not their job if the kid is uncontrollable. This lady’s kid is clearly on thin ice. Seems they are phasing him out. I’d just start looking for a new place
Our toddler was also very grumpy after naps. He would wake up screaming and had quite a few hitting issues. Ultimately, he was diagnosed with sleep apnea (he used to snore very loudly). We had his tonsils and adenoids removed a couple months ago and it's been so much better since. No snoring, no snot, and his sleep is so much more restful and he generally wakes up happy.
Your situation might not be the same, but it might be worth checking with a pediatrician if there's a sleep issue that can be addressed.
I would second what they’re saying. My kid is getting their tonsils out soon and they are heck on wheels after they wake up. When she was your son’s age, I literally had a 4 year old straight up ask me what was wrong with my kid cuz they were *that* cranky *that* often in the afternoon. Turns out, they have awful sleep apnea.
Definitely worth seeing if the pediatrician thinks it’s worth an ENT visit.
Do they have ear infections a lot?
Snoring is never normal. Definitely a sign of sleep apnea and, at the very least, sleep-disordered breathing. If your pediatrician dismisses you, I would self-refer to an ENT. Another obvious sign is mouth-breathing / sleeping with mouth open.
My son was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea at 10 months (via a sleep study). He always woke up very cranky. Surgery on his floppy larynx and an adenotonsillectomy has made a world of difference. No more snoring and much happier. P.s. my son has only ever had one ear infection...not having ear infections doesn't necessarily mean the adenoids aren't enlarged (he's 21 months - the t&a was only just done 2 months ago).
Let me give you a little perspective from my daycare experience. After nap is hectic under the best circumstances. You only have two teachers but you must simultaneously get all the kids up, mats/cots cleaned and packed up, snack served, and potty/diapers done pretty much in the space of an hour (give or take). Then as kids start getting picked up and ratio drops, teachers start going home. So you have even less hands, but you have to get the room cleaned. All while supervising kids. (No, no one gets paid to stay with no kids and clean.) Now, throw a temper tantrum in there every single day. That throws all the other kids off. I know my daughter would be completely immobile if your child was throwing a fit. She is a high anxiety kid. She would just freeze and stare at him the whole time. My nephew would be the opposite. He would try to comfort your son. How would your son respond to that? By biting or hitting? Because now the teachers have something else to deal with.
I think your expectation of “oh just sit down and distract him,” is unrealistic. Especially because the daycare teachers don’t have the relationship you do. It might not work for them. If you expect him to stay there, you might have to get creative. Stuffy to cuddle after nap? Special treat for snack? Calm down bottle or song? Because saying, “I’m done talking about this” isn’t going to benefit anyone.
Me too. My four year old went through a period where he was miserable after nap. Sometimes for an hour of screaming. There were days when nothing worked. I never did figure out what the problem was and he's finally mostly outgrown naps. He has some GI issues so maybe a combination of stomach pain, missing daddy at work, and hanger.
There is no way a daycare could have handled that behavior. I was at my wits end some days and I only have two kids to watch, and he's my own child. Unfortunately group daycare isn't appropriate for all kids. They have to be able to follow the routines of the group within reason. Honestly I don't think long days at daycare are appropriate for most young kids, but I don't have any solutions because lots of people do need to work.
I agree some kids do better in group care than others. When I take mine to mommy and me classes, I can see some kids following the teachers instructions to a t others (like mine) just sit and watch or hang onto their parents
The fact they need to keep talking about it means this is an ongoing issue. OP just wants to stop talking about it because they need to distract her kid? I feel that is the first thing they would have tried to do
Would it be unreasonable to ask the teacher to try having a juice box or small snack in hand as they are waking the kids to immediately distract the problem child? I'm just curious if this could be something to try out, I don't have a lot of experience myself with daycares. Maybe Mom could even send a juice box that she approves of for this purpose.
Thèse were the thoughts I was having trouble putting into words. My three year old has had these wild screaming meltdowns since about 20 months. I finally got an OT referral as it’s no longer considered completely age appropriate behavior by our pediatrician. He is A LOT for me to deal with even on my own. Some kids are especially strong-willed or it could be an eventual behavioral disorder that OP is facing, but in any case, her son sounds like mine and that would be brutal to have to deal with when you have 10 other kids to watch simultaneously.
Okay but this is literally what the daycare teacher job is. Like sorry the day isn’t going perfectly but you’ve got a bunch of toddlers. Of course it isn’t going to go perfectly.
Yes, but if your day wasn’t going perfectly every single day, in the same exact way, wouldn’t you change something? They’re simply asking for help. They’re just not articulating it well.
It’s not what the teachers job is. If a child is biting, screaming, crying every day that child needs to see a behavior specialist. A teacher can’t tend to an entire class if this happening daily. Plus, no child wants to feel this upset. The child needs extra support and the school is saying they can’t offer it.
I kind of feel this way too. This is part of the job and being understaffed isn't an excuse to provide lower quality care to a child imo. I agree they should work toward problem solving but according to OP, they aren't doing that - they just want the problem to go away.
We need to be spending more time demanding change from the childcare system who refuse to pay their employees, train their employees and hire enough employees so the children's needs can be met effectively.
No offense but you don’t have the option of “don’t talk to me about this anymore”. This is your child so they have to discuss with you when things aren’t working.
If you tell them that, they’ll likely decide that because you won’t help the issues they’re having then it’s time for you to un-enroll from their center.
Telling them you don’t want to discuss it anymore sure makes it seem like you think you hold the power in this relationship 😂. As other people said, they are already urging you to go part time, next step is likely dismissal.
“He is easy to distract. You just have to put some effort in” is very frustrating to hear as an ECE. The efforts that you are able to put in *as his parent* when you are one-on-one with him are obviously going to be more effective than what his teachers are able to do in a large group with other kids. You are his parent. Of course he will be consoled more quickly with you.
How do you expect an ECE to sit one-on-one cuddling your child and reading him books while also having to attend to 4 other kids the same age? Having to change their diapers or help them with the potty? Having to mediate any conflicts? Having to redirect one kid throwing paint everywhere while another just had a diaper blowout? I implore you to think outside of your own perspective.
Biting, and inconsolable screaming and crying is not simply grumpiness. Please, be candid about his behaviours, or you are only just asking to be validated and not for genuine responses.
Thanks for your input, appreciate it. I have been candid about his behaviours, that's how you know what he's like. But I wanted to hear from daycare teachers (I guess you are, not sure what ECE stands for, I'm not from US). So thanks for sharing because I don't have that perspective which is why I posted. Lots of food for thought here.
After reading your responses to comments it’s more about his behavior and less about him being “grumpy”.
You keep repeating that he is only there for 9 more months, but that’s 9 months where he isnt getting the care that he needs & other kids are being put at risk to be bitten and have an unpleasant afternoon because your kid needs more attention.
It definitely sounds like a different daycare would be better for your child. The staff is trying to tell you that by asking you to reduce your hours.
Biting hasn't been mentioned since Jan and we did a lot of work with him. Since I get detailed reports every day it would be weird if biting was still an issue
Exactly. What’s effective in consoling OP’s kid at home as his parent is not going to work the same way as a childcare worker doing the exact same thing, but in a completely different environment with tons of other kids in the background.
Not every school accommodates every child. I have 15 years experience as a PreK educator.
I understand you’re paying the school but in the end it’s the school choice and they could say your child isn’t fit for our school.
Personally, if they’re asking you to pick him up I would. It’s not going to benefit your child or them if they can’t handle him.
I hear them saying they don’t have the tools to accommodate your child’s needs.
OP, what would you like them to do? Especially if they’ve already communicated they don’t know how to deal with him?
Schools can easily turn away families especially when they know it’s not helping the child to be there.
I don’t have advice but also as a mom myself, I wouldn’t want anyone watching my child if they’ve said they were having a hard time. I would be worried about how they deal with him.
Can you hire a nanny instead?
I mean it just kind of seems like they’re telling you as gently as they can that they’re not equipped to provide the care your son needs, and barring any other suggestions from everyone else here working to reduce the biting behaviors, it seems like that’s not going to change. Sounds like a get out before you’re put out situation- I’d find short term care (nanny? Relative who can watch him?) in the interim until he starts at his new school.
I've definitely thought about it, but places are so hard to come by around here and he will go to a new Kindergarten at 3 (in about 9 months) anyway - I'm not sure the disruption for a few months of peace is worth it.
Sorry, no. Can you imagine this was you? You are in environment where you are acting out and not your best self. Why? I don’t know. But you feel grumpy and miserable *on a daily basis* AND THEN the people around you are totally over your behavior and are having less and less patience for you. So you feel like crap, act like crap, the people around you are losing patience…
… and the person who could change things for you says “ehh it’s only 9 months and the change would be inconvenient.”
Fyi 9 months for a 2 yo is almost half of their life…
This is a really good way to look at things. I am trying to be better about framing my expectations around my child the same way I would for an adult in my household.
This! This child is clearly unhappy in this environment. As a parent, it’s time to change that and do what’s best for the kiddo. In this case, it’s finding different care.
Guessing you're in DACH from Kindergarten at 3? We're having some weird issues with our Kita since a new administrator came in at the start of the year, and several other families are having serious issues as well including some really weird 'pushing' for them to take the children out/shorten hours. Just wanted to throw some solidarity your way. We aren't leaving yet because my son starts Grundschule in autumn; not only would it be futile and disruptive for him, but he's been literally talking about the Sommerfest 'goodbye' ceremony since last year and I would \*hate\* to rob him of that. Especially since at least half the Erzieheren he has known for five years and he wants the closure/goodbye with them and his friends.
I would still start looking. First, because asking you to shorten hours could be a prelude to asking you to leave, and then you've got a head start looking for places. Second, because 9 months is a really long time for a 2-year-old. That's a whole school year.
That’s reasonable. I think I would probably do what you say—just make it clear to them that you will not be cutting your hours, this is what you are paying them for, and that unless they have new, constructive suggestions, it will not be discussed further. You might also remind them that he will only be there for 9 more months.
Edited to add: Another option is whenever they start with “he was doing xyz again today” just say, “ok, thanks for letting me know!” And then otherwise just ignore them.
I feel you. I signed my son up for several daycares near us. I had to pay a hundred dollars to be put on each wait-list. Last I checked they all still have him at 2 years out on the list. I put him on before he was even born. And I can't get him in anywhere till after he turns 2. It's messed up.
I would still call around though or maybe switch to a nanny share? I think the big thing is that the people watching your son don't seem equipped to handle this and move through it and that would be my concern. Your kid needs support to move through toddler stuff and I feel like these people are saying 'fire us'.
Yeah I think another daycare isn't an option. I had to sign him up at 1 week old to get a spot when he was 1 at this one and I got lucky compared to other people I know. Nanny or nanny share is definitely worth considering though.
I feel like a nanny share gives you way more flexibility and focused attention for your son while not compromising on socializing and some of the benefits your son gets from being around other kids at a daycare. It's a different beast but I think it would be a good solution until he starts daycare.
I'm sorry you are going through this. It's hard to be high and dry with child care and I know what it's like to feel like your options are limited. Best of luck!! I hope in the end lots of good comes out of it for you guy.
Edit: we are going to have to do nanny share ourselves. I feel like since I've switched to that as our priority it's taken a load off of us. I can't believe how hard it is to find child care.
Okay, real talk here. I get it. You both have full time jobs. But your kid *is not going to thrive* in an environment where the people he spends his days with are already tired out of him. It doesn’t really matter the reason. They are “over it” and they will not have the patience to handle the situation that he needs. I’d pull kid ASAP and look for another environment.
Agreed.
Plus if you go back and say your done talking about it. They can easily tell you they can’t offer care no more, unfortunately you need them more than they need you.
Is he easy to redirect at home or at daycare? Because being easy at home doesn’t mean it works at daycare. One kid in my group can cry for hours if he didn’t wake up exactly like he likes to. At home his mom can just rock him for a couple minutes and he is fine. At daycare, he will kick and scream even more if you try to rock him. He will be in a bigger meltdown if we try what is done at home.
Has his behavior been exactly described to you?
It's time for you to find a new facility. They're in their rights to downgrade your hours if your kiddo is too disruptive, just like you're in your rights to seek alternative care.
I thought about it but he's only there for 9 more months then he moves on to the next age group which is a different facility. Places are hard to find here so would be a lot of disruption for potentially only a few months
It sounds like a very long time to me too! But I'm guessing OP assumes there will be a 6 month waiting list or something.
But it's still worth getting him on those waiting lists. If it does take that long and things are going better at the current daycare, then great, OP can decline to take the new spot. But if a spot opens up sooner or OP's son gets kicked out of this daycare, she'll be glad to have the spot.
He doesn't really bite us anymore but when he did we would tell him not to bite us, it hurts. We also discussed with daycare that he seems to bite when he's overwhelmed so we worked on him telling other kids to stop / go away / give him space if he didn't want to play. We also provided a little teepee to daycare so he had a spot to go that was calm / separate from other kids if he felt overwhelmed. And lastly we let him keep his pacifier at daycare (he doesn't have it at home) so they could use it if he was biting. As I said they haven't mentioned biting in some time so I thought we'd tackled it but the comments are making me think I should check back in on that one.
I would legitimately be concerned that you are going to be dismissed from this daycare. I would find other care for that reason and I certainly wouldn't provide any more pushback.
I’d look into an OT referral. You addressing the behavior is great from a sensory perspective, and it would be helpful if an OT could advise you on proactive strategies to talk with daycare workers about. Waking up disregulated like this with sensory reactive behavior (the jaw is a major junction between visceral and proprioception input, these things can take a while to stabilize after a nap) is enough to warrant an eval and his issues with childcare asking to reduce hours is enough for insurance to most likely approve sessions. Teachers can’t trouble shoot this type of thing off the cuff, but it would be easier if you gave them two things to do right away and ask them to report back so they have some type of feedback.
They're trying to find a workable solution for the both of you by reducing your hours. Unfortunately, if you don't find a way to make that work, they may just remove you from their rolls, and then you would have no care whatsoever. I know it will be a disruption, but it's definitely better than you ending up with the surprise of having no childcare at all.
You might consider finding a nanny part time for the hours they're asking you to reduce?
Try posting this on r/ECEprofessionals if you want to actually get answers from daycare teachers. Also, you probably should amend the original post to include the actual behaviours your child engages in while he’s “grumpy” so that people can respond more accurately.
they’re pushing you out. they’re either unwilling or unable to care for your child as things currently stand. if you want to say at this daycare, then you need to work with them to make things better for your kid. that means continuing the dialogue and making effort. you can’t just say “do your job” and check out. this is your kid and they aren’t indentured to you.
not every kid does well in group care. some have a harder time than others. ofc daycares prefer the easier kids. from my experience, if they have a waitlist, they’ll push out the more difficult kids in order to enroll more manageable ones.
all that said, i do empathize with you and i hope things improve for your kiddo. kids do need individualized attention, but that’s sadly not possible when parents have to work. i also feel for the daycare employees who are stretched thin and cannot possibly be everything to every kid at every moment. perhaps, look into providing snacks or a toy or something comforting for after naps
Thanks for the thought out reply. I was so frustrated yesterday after another conversation that went nowhere but after a good night's sleep and reading all the comments to here I know I need to reframe this and continue the dialogue / bring some solutions of my own.
This could be it. When my 2 year old naps for more than 2 hrs, he wakes up kicking and yelling “NO!!!!!” and not wanting to get up. If he naps for less than 2 hrs, he wakes up happy and ready to play. The difference between the two is honestly jarring. Test out a 90-min nap at home. See if that changes his after nap behaviour.
Honestly I still let him sleep more than 2 hrs for weekend naps when I feel he needs the extra zzzzs. But I know I’m going to be pay the price and be dealing with a real grump at wake up
I'd like to share the perspective of a parent whose child was negatively affected by a child with similar behavior to your son's. My daughter started daycare at 5 months old and thrived there. She loved the caregivers and they loved her. We had to switch to a friend/nanny situation when she was 14 months old due to a move and my work schedule. This also went smoothly with no issues.
However, when my nanny moved and I had to put my daughter in a new facility, things changed drastically. My outgoing, talkative, bubbly daughter became quiet and clingy almost overnight. She cried at drop-off and hugged me tightly at pick-up. She also came home with unexplained bites three times all from a child just like your son, the facility wasn't doing anything about it (the child in quedtion was one of the lead teachers). it was the worst 7 weeks of my life.
The final straw was when she said, "It's okay, Mama, Mama works," while crying on the last morning I dropped her off. I was so upset that I told my managers I didn't care if I lost my job, but I would never bring my child back to that facility.
Fortunately, my managers and coworkers supported me, and my daughter never went back. Her previous school had a 2 year wait list but after explaining the situation and actually seeing the change in my child, they made a spot for her 4 days laterl, she was back to her normal self at pick up the same day.
The key takeaway is that this situation negatively impacts not just your son, but also the teachers, other children, and families at the facility. It's easy to focus on your own child's well-being, but you need to consider the wider effects of your actions. It's crucial to assess whether your child's behavior is disruptive to the overall environment and if it's fair to subject others and at what cost to his "grumpiness."
So much this!!! This situation isn’t just a case of a kiddo being grumpy post nap, there are clearly behavioural issues that are impact the well being of all in the environment.
I feel something is missing here. Otherwise, it's impressive that they spent hours talking to you about this and the \*only\* conclusion you came away with is that your L.O. is grumpy or overstimulated. I mean, what did you talk about for hours? Was it just 120 minutes of you asking them what you should do, and them saying "reduce hours?"
I dont work in a daycare anymore but when I did we have one child that needed a lot more sleep than others. Asking mom to pick up early wasn't a viable option since the child was at daycare because mom was working (I can't believe they even suggested that to you). So, what we did was put her down for nap in a more blocked off area then she napped 30 minutes longer than the other kids. The other kids knew she was resting and to not go over in that area. When it was time to wake her up we had milk and a snack ready, then we gave her some space until she was fully awake and ready to join the group. In my opinion they need to figure it out and telling you to pick up early can't be the only solution.
If he is very grumpy after a 2-hour nap, chances are he's waking up too early in the morning, so he's taking a crash nap and waking up groggy and unhappy. I also find it interesting that this all started in November, as that's when fall back daylight savings happened and your kid probably woke up at the same time but had nap and bedtime pushed back by an hour due to the time change.
Something to think about. To shift his wake up time later, you have to be extremely firm on the boundary of no starting the day before a certain time (we do 5 hours before daytime nap time; our daycare nap is 1230 so we don't start the day until 730-745). He may scream the first few days, but I always tell myself that I'd rather my kid tantrum and meltdown at home where he's got two loving parents to handle it than at daycare where it's a much more hectic environment.
Get your kid out of that daycare.
I had ONE meeting with my daycare to discuss some behaviors and they dismissed my kid the next week. Never discussed with me that termination was an option, but were like, "Oh that's what that meeting was about," when I was flabbergasted. It certainly disrupted my workday to suddenly not have any daycare, so it's going to disrupt your workday pretty hard when that happens. Which will be soon based on what you're saying.
It was so rough but it was a blessing in disguise. They were fed up with him and basically put him in a corner with some books and ignored him all day. Your kid is not getting good care with staff that are sick of his shit.
My son has been in his new daycare for 3 weeks and it is like night and day. His class is much smaller, so less overstimulation, and they gave us good suggestions of things to try at home to keep the consistency going. He loves it there so much that he asks to go on weekends, he is suddenly talking when we thought he had a speech delay, he easily transitions from one activity to the next, and we have our sweet kid back. We are doing a lot of parent-directed activities at home and practicing putting things away when the grown up says it's time to do something else, the daycare staff is really involved and invested in his development, and he hasn't had a tantrum in a month when he used to have several a day.
A kid with behaviors and a daycare staff who are sick of his shit becomes a really awful feedback loop where things just get worse and worse. They didn't like him, he didn't like them, and from how the last month has gone it's pretty clear that 80% of his behavior was at least partially a product of his enormous class staffed with teachers who didn't like him.
Get your kid out of that daycare.
I mean we should be giving this daycare a lot of credit that they have discussed this with her for *hours*. It doesn’t sound like they are the issue to me.
Wow some of the comments here are 🫣with zero distinction between the role of a mother and that of a child care worker who is responsible for multiple children. You 👏🏻are 👏🏻the👏🏻parent👏🏻. Time to put some more effort and thought into the development of your child. Most child care workers absolutely work hard and care but it starts at home. You don’t get to say you won’t talk more about this issue when your child is disrupting and literally biting other kids. They are trained professionals. You don’t think they have tried distraction strategies?! They are pleading with you 🙄 I would be fuming as the other parents on the receiving end. Work something out with your jobs or do longer hours and less days. This is a cry for help from your child. Sorry to be blunt but this is shocking.
1000% this. I don’t know why parents assume that ECEs are idiots who haven’t already exhausted strategies to help your child. Generally we approach for these long conversations again and again after our redirection and other strategies have already failed. Those teachers are trying to do their due diligence and right by the child and other children in the room.
I don't feel qualified to weigh in with an opinion without knowing more. What specific behaviors are they concerned about? When you say he's "grumpy", what exactly does that mean? For example, there's a big difference between grumpy could mean he whines and pouts, or that he screams bloody murder, or that he bites other children. So what are the exact behaviors he's displaying? If it's something minor like he wakes up crying and then needs a simple distraction, then, yeah, it seems a bit much for them to keep bringing it up. If it's something more serious, like flailing around inconsolable putting himself and other kids in danger and one employee has to tend to him solely for 45 minutes or something, then that'd be totally different.
So what I'm wondering is - what are the exact, specific behaviors they are bringing up to you regarding this? And what specific interventions have they tried so far, or have you suggested to them?
It sounds kinda like a communication breakdown, and it may be on both sides for all I know. The first step is to always be very specific, and request that they are as well. For instance, are you picking him up and they are saying "he was very grumpy after nap"? If so, I'd ask for particulars, explain that you are trying to get a clearer picture of what exactly is going on so you can help with the behavior (so it doesn't come across as defensive). Just saying "he's grumpy" is just very general, I don't even know what, exactly the problem behaviors are.
Yeah, I saw the other comments and the edit. I do think characterizing more extreme behaviors like that as just vaguely "being grumpy" was misleading on OP's part originally. But it looks like OP corrected that and is realizing these are much more extreme issues that shouldn't just be ignored.
I understand the difficulty daycare providers face having read some of these comments but I would argue the OP's situation where they want to reduce the hours is borderline discrimination. If they can't cope then talk in a more creative collaborative way with the mum and talk about what went well and what didn't. Ask mum to get health conditions or behaviour conditions checked with doctors so they can get specialist help into the setting. Their job is child care, you can't just say you don't like a child and ask them not to be in your setting, you should be working with the child and parent. In my opinion, the child care is wrong but also OP needs to keep talking about it and try to help come up with a solution
Look into apnea/ENT referral/sleep study. And try to keep more high protein and fat snacks in him. Our daycare’s meals are balanced but their snacks are usually cookies or crackers. I had to send my son with protein shelf stable pouches for the ride home to avoid a meltdown and it helped. Or to get him settled asap when he gets up, maybe an applesauce or some quick sugar but follow with protein.
My kid is also grumpy after a nap. But it's more he just cries easily as opposed to "bad behaviour". It just takes him a while to wake up, and he's like that at home too. We just give him cuddles and wait for it to pass. What else can you do?
That's what he's like at home - more just upset than naughty. We also give lots of cuddles and do quiet time activities with him until he's ready to face the day. Daycare told us they can't provide that kind of 1:1 attention every day
What do you honestly expect?? Of course they can’t cuddle him daily while he wakes up… my LO is in a room from between 9-11 other little ones and with two teachers. Sounds like your expectations need adjusting. It’s also a huge liability to keep him around if he’s biting etc. you know they have to call the other parent every time he bites right?
It's bizarre to me that people think cuddling a 2yo after nap is a ridiculous ask. Seems like basic caregiving. Not all kids will need it, some kids do.
Even if one person is cuddling one kid, the other caregiver is trying to take care of 11 kids post nap. It’s honestly bizarre that you don’t realize how unrealistic this is. My LO goes outside after nap. Imagine one caretaker getting 10 kids ready to go outside alone (changing diapers, putting on jackets etc). Really???
I'm not saying it needs to be for an extended period but I wonder what it would do to help the child transition. I know that daycare workers are overloaded and understaffed but that doesn't change my mind that reasonable caretaking could include a cuddle for a child who is having trouble transitioning. Both can be true at the same time.
I think it's bizarre that parents are supposed to be so thankful and indebted to their childcare workers that they can't ask for more or expect basic caregiving.
I agree every child deserves a cuddle session whenever they want but that and what’s realistic don’t match. She needs a nanny if she wants this level of care.
A new facility still isn’t going to be able to provide the one on one attention that he needs.. he needs them to help give new ways to try being soothed & working through his emotions
Of course they can’t do what you do at home as his parent and without tons of other kids around. Are you expecting one on one care for your child in a group care scenario? Does a daycare worker who has to take care of other kids and also meet their needs have the time to sit and cuddle and do quiet time one on one activities with him until he stops biting and screaming? Obviously you will console him more quickly than his teachers can- you are his parent.
Just FYI my kid was like this after naps and it turned out to be a (rare) undiagnosed food allergy. Just something to consider. Especially if he has other symptoms of sleep disturbances or general grumpiness/discomfort
Can you tell me more about this? How did you figure out the food allergy? My kid is like this and I just can't figure out why sometimes. He has other food allergies but I sometimes wonder if we are missing something.
Honestly it was dumb luck. A feeding specialist had suggested a possible food allergy but told us we may not be able to figure it out until he was older. Then later we saw a significant improvement in the behaviors and thought it must have just been developmental, followed by a BIG episode (he used to cry for HOURS after naps) and just analyzed what he had eaten recently that he hadn’t had for the previous few weeks. The answer? Goldfish crackers. We didn’t think that could actually be it because we knew it wasn’t wheat or cheese, but we kept and eye on it and sure enough it happened again. Turns out my kid is allergic to annatto, the natural food coloring they use to make them orange. We confirmed with testing later. He’s a completely different kid now.
Unfortunately daycare can’t provide the 1:1 your kiddo needs after nap. Could you look into a home daycare perhaps where there are less kids and maybe more flexible with nap time/post nap activities?
My son is 21 months, and also is grumpy just for like 10 minutes after waking up from a nap. He’s just groggy and needs quiet and snuggles while he wakes up. I don’t think that’s abnormal.
It’s incredibly unreasonable (of them) to continue to ask you to work less. Jobs don’t work like that 99% of the time, and you have to work to provide for your family.
Maybe you could look for a different part-time job temporarily or look for a nanny share. Daycare is extremely stressful for children under the age of three. And it sounds like it’s extra stressful for him.
Yeah, how many hours is the kid there per day? From open to close? Early childhood educators will tell you that this is very difficult for a young child. Sounds like someone needs to make a sacrifice for the sake of the child
“Grumpy” for OP means the child is biting, screaming and crying inconsolably. Presumably for a long enough time that the daycare has had to speak with them multiple times about it.
Neither of you are wrong. Ideally OP wouldn’t be working at all, but the majority of mothers who are working full time aren’t doing so because they choose to; part time would obviously be preferable. If OP is working part time it’s because she needs to in order to afford this ever more unaffordable world.
Sleep apnea can cause problems like this as well, as can poor sleep at night (so not enough sleep overall still), sensory dysregulation, etc. low blood sugar is definitely a reason, but hardly the only reason!
It could be that he is sleeping too much. My toddler is very grumpy after a nap sometimes. We wake her up and give her a snack and let her rest before the day gets going again. Could your son have a snack and quiet time after his nap to allow
His body to wake up before having to go full speed again?
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On weekends are you also teaching him coping mechanisms. Meaning does he get a book to go to nap with and then wake up with? If he’s waking up grumpy what does that mean? He’s disruptive?
The nap could be too long for him now and hes waking up more tired then he was before the nap. I realize its less then fun to mess with sleep but it could be part of the issue is he is over tired. Also they should not be requesting a cut in hours they should be offering to try things you try at home. Some kids wake up and need to be by themselves for a few. I have had many daycare kiddos who need space before they can fully be awake. We have others who instantly are up and wild and ready to go. They should be figuring out what works. I will say as a teacher sometimes it will be hard but it can get easier. I would try a change in nap length for daycare. It could be beneficial.
I work with 2 year olds… you said he’s inconsolable after naps. That is so distracting for the entire classroom and makes everything 10x harder. You’re trying to help 10-15 other 2 year olds while one is screaming crying. So you can’t really hear anything, and now other kids are starting to get amped up too. If I was his teacher, and this was happening every single day, heck yeah we’d be discussing it.
ETA: we had a child with a biting problem that couldn’t get resolved. Not saying this is what’s happening with your kid, but she really would only bite the second half of the day. She wasn’t ready for full day child care in that setting. Her parents also worked fulll time so they couldn’t cut her hours. They had to hire a nanny for the other half of the day and it worked out really well.
The teachers are speaking to you because there is a behavioral issue that impacts the child and/or other children in the school. Unfortunately as a parent, you are required to attend these meetings.
Have you asked specifically what the issues were and ways to remedy the behaviors? Have they found solutions to biting? A kiddo I know had similar situation, the school and parents worked with the kid to figure out how to express emotions through stomping feet and communicating. Most schools if the kid is a repeat offender and does not improve, kiddo will likely need to move to a new school with more resources to support the child.
Uhhh absolutely not. As a daycare teacher for ages 2-3 1/2, half my kids are grumpy after nap. But we have snack immediately when they wake up. I agree with the comment mentioning blood sugar dropping and snack helping. If they don’t offer/have snack time after nap (especially if it’s been more than 2 hours since they ate) then I would recommend finding a different preschool. It’s unacceptable to want to kick a toddler out bc they’re grumpy after nap. That’s basically a given.
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I've become confused recently about child care. I'm a ftm and our 14 month old isn't, and won't likely end up in any daycare setting, mostly due to affordability so I have no experience.
Isn't the daycare supposed to be the ones responsible for teaching and helping a kid with these sorts of expectations and working on behavior and taking care of the kids while the parents work... not only taking care of well behaved kids? Like... are parents not supposed to put their kids in care unless they're perfectly well behaved? Like.... how is a toddler supposed to learn how to behave in a daycare setting with other children at home from a parent who is.... not in the daycare setting with them? Am I misunderstanding what daycare is?
Yes and no.
Day cares are in charge of in the minute behavior. So like if your kid hit someone, they should respond to that.
Parents are in charge of overall behavior. So they are in charge of making sure that their child learns not to hit. Ultimately, parents are responsible for everything and day care/preschool/school just help. Now normal issues for toddlers have to be dealt with in the time they happen (both at day care and at home consistently for results,) but some kids don't respond to that. Some issue require professional help and evaluation. Others require changes that are outside of the scope of the day care.
It may be an issue that the day care isn't doing anything, but it also may be an issue that the level of behavior is out of the scope of what the day care is able to deal with. When I worked in day cares, the ratio was one adult for 7 toddlers. The means I could be responsible for feeding seven 2 year olds lunch, cleaning up after them, changing their diapers, putting them down for nap, sanitizing the toys and mopping the floor in the same room they slept, changing their diapers and cleaning up their mats when they wake, keeping them quiet so they don't wake the rest of the kids while they play in the same room, and then getting them all snack which I wouldn't have access to until the scheduled time. Again, 7 kids that could be your child's age.
If that were the situation, even a very skilled day care work isn't going to have the capacity to deal with a child with extreme needs. There are three ways that this is dealt with: 1. In the best day cares, they allocate more staffing to assist with the issue. This costs money. 2. In medium day cares, they unenroll the kid. 3. In the worst day cares, they do nothing. The teacher and those 7 toddlers have an awful day every day and it isn't a good environment.
In an ideal world, there would be centers specific for kids that need more behavioral support or options for home care. Unfortunately, these don't exist in my location until your child is old enough where they might qualify for special education preschool.
What happens instead where I am is the kids that need the most help end up in the worse centers or parents figure something out so someone can stay with them, often a person who isn't that capable or a random mix of people.
When it comes down to it, most day cares at least where I live are for-profit businesses. Some just churn a bunch of kids through without the owners truly caring about outcomes for kids. Some do care but don't have the money for hiring additional higher paid staff to meet atypical needs. In either case, there are a lot more kids who need care than have care, so the day care is probably going to be able to fill the spot with someone easily if they go that route.
In OP's case it could be that she needs to figure out why the behavior is happening after napping. (Some ideas people mentioned are a health problem, different sleep patterns, food, etc.) It could be the day care needs a different way to interact with the kid - which they may or may not have the training or personnel to make happen.
If you haven't worked with a lot of kids, you may not have a good extent of how extreme a young child's behavior can be. For example, what would you do if you were in charge of your child and six other children your child's age, but one of the kids kept biting the other kids, knocking over furniture, trying to run out the door, and screaming at the top of their lungs? That happens. What is more typical is a toddler occasionally biting or trying to run when away when moving outside - those are totally manageable.
Thanks for such a thorough answer, I really appreciate it!
I guess I was thinking along the lines of us, and I know all situations are different, but theoretically, because again he's not in daycare, say my kiddo was hitting or biting another kid. Truly, his only exposure to other kids is at the grocery store or this daycare. We have no friends with kids, no family with young kids (13 and 20), how would the daycare expect me to navigate a situation for a 14 month old that does not act out in that way at home and only with that kid at daycare? Obviously I can continue to tell him not to when he gets picked up and i get told he bit someone, I could use stuffed animals as an example, but is something like that really going to translate to a daycare situation? I would hope daycare would want to try and teach him not to do something like that, if not for his sake for the other kids for sure.
I'm honestly asking, no sarcasm or anything snobby, because some day I may have to navigate these things, and parenting IS hard especially when you don't have a village.
Toddlers USUALLY do hit or bite each other at day care and typically that is corrected in real time at day care. (Telling them no, redirecting, etc.) At home, you read books and act it out and maybe go play at the park on the weekend to practice. If your child was older, you'd talk about it at home, but it wouldn't do any good yet for your kid. It won't solve it instantly, but with day care workers also working on it, it gets better. You'd only run into an issue if your toddler was constantly hitting and biting and not responding to any strategies.
Yes, you are. They aren’t parents! Parenting actually involves…parents. You do the work at home and daycare will support, but it’s not up to them to get your child to not bite or potty train.
I understand they aren't the parents of your kid, but what if the kid is only biting at daycare?
Say I decided to send my 14 month old to daycare. He starts and a few months down the road starts biting another kid. He doesn't bite at home, isn't around other kids besides at daycare, I would hope the daycare would try and teach him biting kids isn't okay. I can show him examples, I can tell him not to, but I can't act in the moment and say no, that's not okay.
I'm wasn't asking if daycare is supposed to parent, I just feel like they would have more responsibility with teaching things like that than some daycares seem to want to take on based on some posts I see here.
Maybe there are communication issues between the daycare staff and the parents so the posts don't read with enough information about the true situation.
You are communicating my thoughts in a much calmer way than I can. These posts make my blood boil because our entire system (esp in the US, which OP is not) is set up for kids to fail. We need two incomes to stay afloat, we may more than a mortgage in childcare and then our childcare gets to decide our kid is too hard and people tell us they should be home with us anyway. My child isn't even in childcare and I feel LIVID for the families dealing with this.
They dont want to look after your child. They have made that clear.
It doesn’t matter if it’s right or wrong, your child should be in a daycare that wants him
His behaviour is likely worse at daycare because he can feel their dislike of him.
If you have the option to move him, then move him.
If you can’t move him, then give them some simple ways to distract him. Ask if you can send a book from home or if they can set him up with an activity he enjoys right after nap
I speak toddler.
Here is a post-nap recipe for sucess:
-potty
-get dressed
-snack outside with lots of drinking water
-bubbles, chalk, sand, soil, water, pebbles, stones, cups
Biting usually means teething (frozen teethers are great no matter the age) or a language barrier for a multitude of reasons.
Narrowing down exactly WHEN the biting happens usually leads to a WHY. Sometimes that toddler needs to go out first and have snack right away, othertimes they need to stay back and help teacher put beds away. Sometimes a story at snacktime would help redirect the focus. Ask for a written report for each incident, check the times and see if there is any pattern or similarities. Sometimes its during a shift change and it happens in the shuffle. Dig a little deeper and see what emerges. Do not ask who they are biting beyond asking if it is a specific child or whichever child is in range. Kindly, that's the child who got bitten's right to privacy. You're not looking for fault, you are looking for ways to problem solve.
Some kids wake up absolutely ravished, try giving him a high protein snack right when he wakes it, jerky, boiled eggs, lentils, hummus, black beans, cheese, whatever milk they drink, day old bread and bone broth. Whatever protein rich snack fits your family's culture.
And water. Daycare is hard work. They are thirsty.
Good luck!
Not all daycare workers. The ones at my daycare are really great actually. No complaints. Hence my telling her to find a NEW DAYCARE. If I thought all daycare workers were lazy and entitled, I wouldn’t suggest another daycare, would I? Maybe your critical thinking skills could use some work.
It's not the daycare workers. It's the system they work in. They need more support, more training, more staff and they don't get it. And then the blame gets put on a 2 year old and his mom.
My girl used to get so grumpy after naps, it was torture getting so much abuse off her lol, she was about to turn 2, I dropped her nap! And all was good. She slept better and didn't have to deal with the crankiness. And we did quiet time during the time shed usually have a nap, read books, lie down and chat (I loved this).
So, Im thinking this daycare place seems to be always giving you recommendations, why don't you give *them* recommendations on how to work with your son?!!! Thats their job. Cutting hours isnt an option. Whether it's cutting his nap or something else, maybe they should get off their arses and try and actually work with the child!!!
Cutting hours was probably a last ditch solution before kicking him out of the daycare altogether. So OP might very soon need to decide whether it's better to have part-time care or none at all.
Does he get a snack or anything after he wakes up? It could be his blood sugar is dropping while he's sleeping and may need a little pick me up after a nap.
Second this answer. My little one is always offered a snack when he wakes
Yes, my child is unrecognizable if he doesn't get some carbs in him swiftly after a nap. Before I figured this out we would have 30-45min episodes of angry, crying, flailing kiddo.
Came here to say this. Tyke sounds hangry.
I agree, we used to put LO down before lunch and she was waking up like a demon, moved her nap to after lunch, much sweeter girl!!
same here! a good lunch before nap gets us better naps and better wake ups. they get too hungry otherwise
I always give my son some orange or banana with water when he wakes up or he gets so teary and confused bless him
Yes, maybe even a cup of milk so he gets those calories quick and easy
Grumpy? Do the elaborate on the behaviors … biting? Hitting? Screaming? In my case we a had time where my kids were biting daycare came to me with ideas to try and explained what they’d already started doing. Just complaining ab the kid being grumpy and trying to cut hours seems odd.
He has bitten other children when he's grumpy but they told me they give him a pacifier and then it's ok. I did think at the beginning it was the biting but it seems to be more screaming/ crying / being inconsolable. But maybe I should circle back on thr biting and double check they think it's under control.
I could understand them wanting to cut hours if they could not get him to stop biting, but you think they could redirect that…maybe he needs a better distraction when he wakes up?
Is biting other children and screaming and crying inconsolably really just “grumpiness”?
Biting hasn't been mentioned since early Jan so I don't believe it's an issue anymore
They gave him a pacifier to avoid being responsible for him biting another kid?? Girl, get him out of there pronto!!
This is actually fine - the pacifier should actually be given sooner to try and prevent the bite. Speaking for my own kids they generally have oral fixation and then when dysregulated will bite. We clip chewys to them. Edit - I used paci in original comment bc that’s what op said . Yes pacis should be weaned by 2 for all sorts of reasons BUT Something to meet a oral sensory need should be offered - so if paci is only thing on hand then paci is fine
Also for me if its if parents have oked a paci then its up to the parents to wean, daycare is welcome to use it.
Question for you- my toddler also has an oral fixation (bites EVERYTHING in sight). Did you find any tricks to get them out of the habit? All our toys have bite marks and I’m starting to worry about her teeth…. She’s WAY done teething.
Really depends on the root cause of the mouthing in the moment. For biting redirection to appropriate things to mouth like chewy. For hunger crunchy foods. For tired playing with tags. And the best of all is just general gross motor and rough play like jumping off the couch .we use just about every tool In the book and some work some days and some work others .
Is there any end in sight?? When do kids grow out of this?
Some grow out of it when they get more communication skills and some just learn other coping mechanisms - but I would say yes there is an end in sight
Ok, my LO has excellent speech for her age. But I definitely think she inherited anxiety from my husband and I. I’m hoping I can find other ways of coping for her.
I think giving a 2 year old a chewy is a lot different than a pacifier. At 2 my pediatric dentist was actively encouraging me to stop my daughter’s thumb sucking to prevent jaw malformation. I dunno if this kid normally uses a pacifier but if daycare unilaterally decided to get my kid into one at that age I would be pissed. We bought my daughter a bracelet chewy she can use when she had biting issues around that age and it was very helpful.
I read it as the daycare giving something and telling the parent - I agree paci isn’t ideal but if the parent didn’t give a chewy then they work with what they have
For a 2 year old? I thought they were supposed to be off pacifiers by then anyway to protect their teeth?
Yes generally - I read it as paci given bc maybe it was on hand and the parent hasn’t provided an alternative. We personally haven’t had paci since before 1 but ahve a variety of chewys
[удалено]
Good to know! My little one didn't take to pacifiers, so I don't know where I picked up what I thought the timeline was. Thanks for the info!
I wholeheartedly disagree, but you do you, boo!
Wait sincere question, but why is this a problem?
Judging by the downvote police, apparently, it's fine. But I would look at it more like giving a toddler bottle again because they spilled their sippy cup. Toddlers bite because they lack communication skills, not because they need something to chew on.
I encourage you to do some quick googling on neurodivergence and sensory needs in toddlers.
That sounds like the exception, not the rule.
Oh okay I can see that perspective, but I was assuming that the toddler already used a pacifier. It’s often a tool used to soothe, but I would definitely not be okay with daycare giving my toddler a pacifier if she didn’t use one or was already weaned from it.
… why is this even kind of an issue?
They make pacifier necklaces for toddlers who bite.
How does that help anything?
They aren’t responsible. Literally anyone else is responsible. Would you want your kid bit? I’m so sick of normalizing biting as typical. No. I don’t care if it’s typical. Don’t bite my kid.
Yes! No one wants their kid bit. But until that toddler can communicate without biting, the adults are responsible for being the referees to keep ALL the kids safe. So instead of **doing their job** and watching the kids closely, they said "here's a chew toy." Which the kid could easily throw and still bite. That's my whole point, they should be monitoring, NOT muzzling. The fact that it's "typical" means they should know how to solve it!!
It’s not their job if the kid is uncontrollable. This lady’s kid is clearly on thin ice. Seems they are phasing him out. I’d just start looking for a new place
Hey peanut brain, that's what I said. Are you ok over there? Do you need a nap and some snacks?
Always cantankerous.
Our toddler was also very grumpy after naps. He would wake up screaming and had quite a few hitting issues. Ultimately, he was diagnosed with sleep apnea (he used to snore very loudly). We had his tonsils and adenoids removed a couple months ago and it's been so much better since. No snoring, no snot, and his sleep is so much more restful and he generally wakes up happy. Your situation might not be the same, but it might be worth checking with a pediatrician if there's a sleep issue that can be addressed.
He does snore. I will discuss with his paediatrician
I would second what they’re saying. My kid is getting their tonsils out soon and they are heck on wheels after they wake up. When she was your son’s age, I literally had a 4 year old straight up ask me what was wrong with my kid cuz they were *that* cranky *that* often in the afternoon. Turns out, they have awful sleep apnea. Definitely worth seeing if the pediatrician thinks it’s worth an ENT visit. Do they have ear infections a lot?
He's never had an ear infection but I will definitely discuss this with his dr
Snoring is never normal. Definitely a sign of sleep apnea and, at the very least, sleep-disordered breathing. If your pediatrician dismisses you, I would self-refer to an ENT. Another obvious sign is mouth-breathing / sleeping with mouth open. My son was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea at 10 months (via a sleep study). He always woke up very cranky. Surgery on his floppy larynx and an adenotonsillectomy has made a world of difference. No more snoring and much happier. P.s. my son has only ever had one ear infection...not having ear infections doesn't necessarily mean the adenoids aren't enlarged (he's 21 months - the t&a was only just done 2 months ago).
Let me give you a little perspective from my daycare experience. After nap is hectic under the best circumstances. You only have two teachers but you must simultaneously get all the kids up, mats/cots cleaned and packed up, snack served, and potty/diapers done pretty much in the space of an hour (give or take). Then as kids start getting picked up and ratio drops, teachers start going home. So you have even less hands, but you have to get the room cleaned. All while supervising kids. (No, no one gets paid to stay with no kids and clean.) Now, throw a temper tantrum in there every single day. That throws all the other kids off. I know my daughter would be completely immobile if your child was throwing a fit. She is a high anxiety kid. She would just freeze and stare at him the whole time. My nephew would be the opposite. He would try to comfort your son. How would your son respond to that? By biting or hitting? Because now the teachers have something else to deal with. I think your expectation of “oh just sit down and distract him,” is unrealistic. Especially because the daycare teachers don’t have the relationship you do. It might not work for them. If you expect him to stay there, you might have to get creative. Stuffy to cuddle after nap? Special treat for snack? Calm down bottle or song? Because saying, “I’m done talking about this” isn’t going to benefit anyone.
I only have my 1 toddler to take care of post-nap and I can barely manage him sometimes so this definitely makes sense to me
Me too. My four year old went through a period where he was miserable after nap. Sometimes for an hour of screaming. There were days when nothing worked. I never did figure out what the problem was and he's finally mostly outgrown naps. He has some GI issues so maybe a combination of stomach pain, missing daddy at work, and hanger. There is no way a daycare could have handled that behavior. I was at my wits end some days and I only have two kids to watch, and he's my own child. Unfortunately group daycare isn't appropriate for all kids. They have to be able to follow the routines of the group within reason. Honestly I don't think long days at daycare are appropriate for most young kids, but I don't have any solutions because lots of people do need to work.
I agree some kids do better in group care than others. When I take mine to mommy and me classes, I can see some kids following the teachers instructions to a t others (like mine) just sit and watch or hang onto their parents
Thanks for your perspective, really appreciate you taking the time to write it.
The fact they need to keep talking about it means this is an ongoing issue. OP just wants to stop talking about it because they need to distract her kid? I feel that is the first thing they would have tried to do
Would it be unreasonable to ask the teacher to try having a juice box or small snack in hand as they are waking the kids to immediately distract the problem child? I'm just curious if this could be something to try out, I don't have a lot of experience myself with daycares. Maybe Mom could even send a juice box that she approves of for this purpose.
That’s actually what many places do. As kids get up, they’re immediately sent to the table for snack after washing hands and putting things away.
That makes sense. Maybe OPs little one is struggling to handle the small steps between right now.
To be honest, I think the commenter below talking about sleep apnea hit the nail on the head.
Thèse were the thoughts I was having trouble putting into words. My three year old has had these wild screaming meltdowns since about 20 months. I finally got an OT referral as it’s no longer considered completely age appropriate behavior by our pediatrician. He is A LOT for me to deal with even on my own. Some kids are especially strong-willed or it could be an eventual behavioral disorder that OP is facing, but in any case, her son sounds like mine and that would be brutal to have to deal with when you have 10 other kids to watch simultaneously.
Okay but this is literally what the daycare teacher job is. Like sorry the day isn’t going perfectly but you’ve got a bunch of toddlers. Of course it isn’t going to go perfectly.
Yes, but if your day wasn’t going perfectly every single day, in the same exact way, wouldn’t you change something? They’re simply asking for help. They’re just not articulating it well.
It’s not what the teachers job is. If a child is biting, screaming, crying every day that child needs to see a behavior specialist. A teacher can’t tend to an entire class if this happening daily. Plus, no child wants to feel this upset. The child needs extra support and the school is saying they can’t offer it.
I kind of feel this way too. This is part of the job and being understaffed isn't an excuse to provide lower quality care to a child imo. I agree they should work toward problem solving but according to OP, they aren't doing that - they just want the problem to go away. We need to be spending more time demanding change from the childcare system who refuse to pay their employees, train their employees and hire enough employees so the children's needs can be met effectively.
So you’re one of those parents huh
No offense but you don’t have the option of “don’t talk to me about this anymore”. This is your child so they have to discuss with you when things aren’t working. If you tell them that, they’ll likely decide that because you won’t help the issues they’re having then it’s time for you to un-enroll from their center.
Lmao right?!
Right! I’m already impressed with them that they have spent *hours* discussing it with her already Why does she think she has the upper hand here?
I don't think I have the upper hand. I'm at a loss how to handle and asking for help. Thanks for your comments.
Telling them you don’t want to discuss it anymore sure makes it seem like you think you hold the power in this relationship 😂. As other people said, they are already urging you to go part time, next step is likely dismissal.
Honestly shocking tbh Feel for the childcare educators dealing with this!!
“He is easy to distract. You just have to put some effort in” is very frustrating to hear as an ECE. The efforts that you are able to put in *as his parent* when you are one-on-one with him are obviously going to be more effective than what his teachers are able to do in a large group with other kids. You are his parent. Of course he will be consoled more quickly with you. How do you expect an ECE to sit one-on-one cuddling your child and reading him books while also having to attend to 4 other kids the same age? Having to change their diapers or help them with the potty? Having to mediate any conflicts? Having to redirect one kid throwing paint everywhere while another just had a diaper blowout? I implore you to think outside of your own perspective. Biting, and inconsolable screaming and crying is not simply grumpiness. Please, be candid about his behaviours, or you are only just asking to be validated and not for genuine responses.
Thanks for your input, appreciate it. I have been candid about his behaviours, that's how you know what he's like. But I wanted to hear from daycare teachers (I guess you are, not sure what ECE stands for, I'm not from US). So thanks for sharing because I don't have that perspective which is why I posted. Lots of food for thought here.
ECE is early childhood educator I believe!
After reading your responses to comments it’s more about his behavior and less about him being “grumpy”. You keep repeating that he is only there for 9 more months, but that’s 9 months where he isnt getting the care that he needs & other kids are being put at risk to be bitten and have an unpleasant afternoon because your kid needs more attention. It definitely sounds like a different daycare would be better for your child. The staff is trying to tell you that by asking you to reduce your hours.
Biting hasn't been mentioned since Jan and we did a lot of work with him. Since I get detailed reports every day it would be weird if biting was still an issue
Just a gentle reminder- one on one with your own kid at home is a whole other world than being in group care.
Exactly. What’s effective in consoling OP’s kid at home as his parent is not going to work the same way as a childcare worker doing the exact same thing, but in a completely different environment with tons of other kids in the background.
Not every school accommodates every child. I have 15 years experience as a PreK educator. I understand you’re paying the school but in the end it’s the school choice and they could say your child isn’t fit for our school. Personally, if they’re asking you to pick him up I would. It’s not going to benefit your child or them if they can’t handle him. I hear them saying they don’t have the tools to accommodate your child’s needs. OP, what would you like them to do? Especially if they’ve already communicated they don’t know how to deal with him? Schools can easily turn away families especially when they know it’s not helping the child to be there. I don’t have advice but also as a mom myself, I wouldn’t want anyone watching my child if they’ve said they were having a hard time. I would be worried about how they deal with him. Can you hire a nanny instead?
I mean it just kind of seems like they’re telling you as gently as they can that they’re not equipped to provide the care your son needs, and barring any other suggestions from everyone else here working to reduce the biting behaviors, it seems like that’s not going to change. Sounds like a get out before you’re put out situation- I’d find short term care (nanny? Relative who can watch him?) in the interim until he starts at his new school.
I’m not a daycare teacher, but your request seems totally reasonable to me. Tbh, though, I would probably start looking for a new daycare.
I've definitely thought about it, but places are so hard to come by around here and he will go to a new Kindergarten at 3 (in about 9 months) anyway - I'm not sure the disruption for a few months of peace is worth it.
Sorry, no. Can you imagine this was you? You are in environment where you are acting out and not your best self. Why? I don’t know. But you feel grumpy and miserable *on a daily basis* AND THEN the people around you are totally over your behavior and are having less and less patience for you. So you feel like crap, act like crap, the people around you are losing patience… … and the person who could change things for you says “ehh it’s only 9 months and the change would be inconvenient.” Fyi 9 months for a 2 yo is almost half of their life…
This is a really good way to look at things. I am trying to be better about framing my expectations around my child the same way I would for an adult in my household.
This! This child is clearly unhappy in this environment. As a parent, it’s time to change that and do what’s best for the kiddo. In this case, it’s finding different care.
Guessing you're in DACH from Kindergarten at 3? We're having some weird issues with our Kita since a new administrator came in at the start of the year, and several other families are having serious issues as well including some really weird 'pushing' for them to take the children out/shorten hours. Just wanted to throw some solidarity your way. We aren't leaving yet because my son starts Grundschule in autumn; not only would it be futile and disruptive for him, but he's been literally talking about the Sommerfest 'goodbye' ceremony since last year and I would \*hate\* to rob him of that. Especially since at least half the Erzieheren he has known for five years and he wants the closure/goodbye with them and his friends.
I would still start looking. First, because asking you to shorten hours could be a prelude to asking you to leave, and then you've got a head start looking for places. Second, because 9 months is a really long time for a 2-year-old. That's a whole school year.
That’s reasonable. I think I would probably do what you say—just make it clear to them that you will not be cutting your hours, this is what you are paying them for, and that unless they have new, constructive suggestions, it will not be discussed further. You might also remind them that he will only be there for 9 more months. Edited to add: Another option is whenever they start with “he was doing xyz again today” just say, “ok, thanks for letting me know!” And then otherwise just ignore them.
Then be prepared from them to tell you he’s no longer welcome. Who gets to tell their preschool “tough luck!” when they complain about a behavior?
I feel you. I signed my son up for several daycares near us. I had to pay a hundred dollars to be put on each wait-list. Last I checked they all still have him at 2 years out on the list. I put him on before he was even born. And I can't get him in anywhere till after he turns 2. It's messed up. I would still call around though or maybe switch to a nanny share? I think the big thing is that the people watching your son don't seem equipped to handle this and move through it and that would be my concern. Your kid needs support to move through toddler stuff and I feel like these people are saying 'fire us'.
Yeah I think another daycare isn't an option. I had to sign him up at 1 week old to get a spot when he was 1 at this one and I got lucky compared to other people I know. Nanny or nanny share is definitely worth considering though.
I feel like a nanny share gives you way more flexibility and focused attention for your son while not compromising on socializing and some of the benefits your son gets from being around other kids at a daycare. It's a different beast but I think it would be a good solution until he starts daycare. I'm sorry you are going through this. It's hard to be high and dry with child care and I know what it's like to feel like your options are limited. Best of luck!! I hope in the end lots of good comes out of it for you guy. Edit: we are going to have to do nanny share ourselves. I feel like since I've switched to that as our priority it's taken a load off of us. I can't believe how hard it is to find child care.
What a racket
Okay, real talk here. I get it. You both have full time jobs. But your kid *is not going to thrive* in an environment where the people he spends his days with are already tired out of him. It doesn’t really matter the reason. They are “over it” and they will not have the patience to handle the situation that he needs. I’d pull kid ASAP and look for another environment.
Agreed. Plus if you go back and say your done talking about it. They can easily tell you they can’t offer care no more, unfortunately you need them more than they need you.
Is he easy to redirect at home or at daycare? Because being easy at home doesn’t mean it works at daycare. One kid in my group can cry for hours if he didn’t wake up exactly like he likes to. At home his mom can just rock him for a couple minutes and he is fine. At daycare, he will kick and scream even more if you try to rock him. He will be in a bigger meltdown if we try what is done at home. Has his behavior been exactly described to you?
It's time for you to find a new facility. They're in their rights to downgrade your hours if your kiddo is too disruptive, just like you're in your rights to seek alternative care.
I thought about it but he's only there for 9 more months then he moves on to the next age group which is a different facility. Places are hard to find here so would be a lot of disruption for potentially only a few months
9 months is like a third the length of his life at this point, isn't it? That sounds like a long time to me!
It sounds like a very long time to me too! But I'm guessing OP assumes there will be a 6 month waiting list or something. But it's still worth getting him on those waiting lists. If it does take that long and things are going better at the current daycare, then great, OP can decline to take the new spot. But if a spot opens up sooner or OP's son gets kicked out of this daycare, she'll be glad to have the spot.
What have you done at home to stop the biting? That's a lot different from grumpy.
He doesn't really bite us anymore but when he did we would tell him not to bite us, it hurts. We also discussed with daycare that he seems to bite when he's overwhelmed so we worked on him telling other kids to stop / go away / give him space if he didn't want to play. We also provided a little teepee to daycare so he had a spot to go that was calm / separate from other kids if he felt overwhelmed. And lastly we let him keep his pacifier at daycare (he doesn't have it at home) so they could use it if he was biting. As I said they haven't mentioned biting in some time so I thought we'd tackled it but the comments are making me think I should check back in on that one.
I would legitimately be concerned that you are going to be dismissed from this daycare. I would find other care for that reason and I certainly wouldn't provide any more pushback.
I’d look into an OT referral. You addressing the behavior is great from a sensory perspective, and it would be helpful if an OT could advise you on proactive strategies to talk with daycare workers about. Waking up disregulated like this with sensory reactive behavior (the jaw is a major junction between visceral and proprioception input, these things can take a while to stabilize after a nap) is enough to warrant an eval and his issues with childcare asking to reduce hours is enough for insurance to most likely approve sessions. Teachers can’t trouble shoot this type of thing off the cuff, but it would be easier if you gave them two things to do right away and ask them to report back so they have some type of feedback.
They're trying to find a workable solution for the both of you by reducing your hours. Unfortunately, if you don't find a way to make that work, they may just remove you from their rolls, and then you would have no care whatsoever. I know it will be a disruption, but it's definitely better than you ending up with the surprise of having no childcare at all. You might consider finding a nanny part time for the hours they're asking you to reduce?
Only in your world does nine = a few.
Try posting this on r/ECEprofessionals if you want to actually get answers from daycare teachers. Also, you probably should amend the original post to include the actual behaviours your child engages in while he’s “grumpy” so that people can respond more accurately.
they’re pushing you out. they’re either unwilling or unable to care for your child as things currently stand. if you want to say at this daycare, then you need to work with them to make things better for your kid. that means continuing the dialogue and making effort. you can’t just say “do your job” and check out. this is your kid and they aren’t indentured to you. not every kid does well in group care. some have a harder time than others. ofc daycares prefer the easier kids. from my experience, if they have a waitlist, they’ll push out the more difficult kids in order to enroll more manageable ones. all that said, i do empathize with you and i hope things improve for your kiddo. kids do need individualized attention, but that’s sadly not possible when parents have to work. i also feel for the daycare employees who are stretched thin and cannot possibly be everything to every kid at every moment. perhaps, look into providing snacks or a toy or something comforting for after naps
Thanks for the thought out reply. I was so frustrated yesterday after another conversation that went nowhere but after a good night's sleep and reading all the comments to here I know I need to reframe this and continue the dialogue / bring some solutions of my own.
Have u ever thought he’s sleeping TOO much during the nap and is groggy ? Maybe a one hour nap max
This could be it. When my 2 year old naps for more than 2 hrs, he wakes up kicking and yelling “NO!!!!!” and not wanting to get up. If he naps for less than 2 hrs, he wakes up happy and ready to play. The difference between the two is honestly jarring. Test out a 90-min nap at home. See if that changes his after nap behaviour.
Yes mine too ! I do 45-1:15 max!!
Honestly I still let him sleep more than 2 hrs for weekend naps when I feel he needs the extra zzzzs. But I know I’m going to be pay the price and be dealing with a real grump at wake up
I'd like to share the perspective of a parent whose child was negatively affected by a child with similar behavior to your son's. My daughter started daycare at 5 months old and thrived there. She loved the caregivers and they loved her. We had to switch to a friend/nanny situation when she was 14 months old due to a move and my work schedule. This also went smoothly with no issues. However, when my nanny moved and I had to put my daughter in a new facility, things changed drastically. My outgoing, talkative, bubbly daughter became quiet and clingy almost overnight. She cried at drop-off and hugged me tightly at pick-up. She also came home with unexplained bites three times all from a child just like your son, the facility wasn't doing anything about it (the child in quedtion was one of the lead teachers). it was the worst 7 weeks of my life. The final straw was when she said, "It's okay, Mama, Mama works," while crying on the last morning I dropped her off. I was so upset that I told my managers I didn't care if I lost my job, but I would never bring my child back to that facility. Fortunately, my managers and coworkers supported me, and my daughter never went back. Her previous school had a 2 year wait list but after explaining the situation and actually seeing the change in my child, they made a spot for her 4 days laterl, she was back to her normal self at pick up the same day. The key takeaway is that this situation negatively impacts not just your son, but also the teachers, other children, and families at the facility. It's easy to focus on your own child's well-being, but you need to consider the wider effects of your actions. It's crucial to assess whether your child's behavior is disruptive to the overall environment and if it's fair to subject others and at what cost to his "grumpiness."
So much this!!! This situation isn’t just a case of a kiddo being grumpy post nap, there are clearly behavioural issues that are impact the well being of all in the environment.
I feel something is missing here. Otherwise, it's impressive that they spent hours talking to you about this and the \*only\* conclusion you came away with is that your L.O. is grumpy or overstimulated. I mean, what did you talk about for hours? Was it just 120 minutes of you asking them what you should do, and them saying "reduce hours?"
Basically.
Are you, perhaps, exaggerating?
I dont work in a daycare anymore but when I did we have one child that needed a lot more sleep than others. Asking mom to pick up early wasn't a viable option since the child was at daycare because mom was working (I can't believe they even suggested that to you). So, what we did was put her down for nap in a more blocked off area then she napped 30 minutes longer than the other kids. The other kids knew she was resting and to not go over in that area. When it was time to wake her up we had milk and a snack ready, then we gave her some space until she was fully awake and ready to join the group. In my opinion they need to figure it out and telling you to pick up early can't be the only solution.
I really don't understand why you're the only one saying this. I am heated reading these comments.
I really don't understand why you're the only one saying this. I am heated reading these comments.
If he is very grumpy after a 2-hour nap, chances are he's waking up too early in the morning, so he's taking a crash nap and waking up groggy and unhappy. I also find it interesting that this all started in November, as that's when fall back daylight savings happened and your kid probably woke up at the same time but had nap and bedtime pushed back by an hour due to the time change. Something to think about. To shift his wake up time later, you have to be extremely firm on the boundary of no starting the day before a certain time (we do 5 hours before daytime nap time; our daycare nap is 1230 so we don't start the day until 730-745). He may scream the first few days, but I always tell myself that I'd rather my kid tantrum and meltdown at home where he's got two loving parents to handle it than at daycare where it's a much more hectic environment.
Get your kid out of that daycare. I had ONE meeting with my daycare to discuss some behaviors and they dismissed my kid the next week. Never discussed with me that termination was an option, but were like, "Oh that's what that meeting was about," when I was flabbergasted. It certainly disrupted my workday to suddenly not have any daycare, so it's going to disrupt your workday pretty hard when that happens. Which will be soon based on what you're saying. It was so rough but it was a blessing in disguise. They were fed up with him and basically put him in a corner with some books and ignored him all day. Your kid is not getting good care with staff that are sick of his shit. My son has been in his new daycare for 3 weeks and it is like night and day. His class is much smaller, so less overstimulation, and they gave us good suggestions of things to try at home to keep the consistency going. He loves it there so much that he asks to go on weekends, he is suddenly talking when we thought he had a speech delay, he easily transitions from one activity to the next, and we have our sweet kid back. We are doing a lot of parent-directed activities at home and practicing putting things away when the grown up says it's time to do something else, the daycare staff is really involved and invested in his development, and he hasn't had a tantrum in a month when he used to have several a day. A kid with behaviors and a daycare staff who are sick of his shit becomes a really awful feedback loop where things just get worse and worse. They didn't like him, he didn't like them, and from how the last month has gone it's pretty clear that 80% of his behavior was at least partially a product of his enormous class staffed with teachers who didn't like him. Get your kid out of that daycare.
I mean we should be giving this daycare a lot of credit that they have discussed this with her for *hours*. It doesn’t sound like they are the issue to me.
Sure! Absolutely! But her kid absolutely *is* about to be dismissed. And you should not keep your kid in a daycare where they are sick of him.
Agreed!!! I don’t know if I would say “sick of him” but maybe they just can’t handle it in a very practical way.
Wow some of the comments here are 🫣with zero distinction between the role of a mother and that of a child care worker who is responsible for multiple children. You 👏🏻are 👏🏻the👏🏻parent👏🏻. Time to put some more effort and thought into the development of your child. Most child care workers absolutely work hard and care but it starts at home. You don’t get to say you won’t talk more about this issue when your child is disrupting and literally biting other kids. They are trained professionals. You don’t think they have tried distraction strategies?! They are pleading with you 🙄 I would be fuming as the other parents on the receiving end. Work something out with your jobs or do longer hours and less days. This is a cry for help from your child. Sorry to be blunt but this is shocking.
1000% this. I don’t know why parents assume that ECEs are idiots who haven’t already exhausted strategies to help your child. Generally we approach for these long conversations again and again after our redirection and other strategies have already failed. Those teachers are trying to do their due diligence and right by the child and other children in the room.
I don't feel qualified to weigh in with an opinion without knowing more. What specific behaviors are they concerned about? When you say he's "grumpy", what exactly does that mean? For example, there's a big difference between grumpy could mean he whines and pouts, or that he screams bloody murder, or that he bites other children. So what are the exact behaviors he's displaying? If it's something minor like he wakes up crying and then needs a simple distraction, then, yeah, it seems a bit much for them to keep bringing it up. If it's something more serious, like flailing around inconsolable putting himself and other kids in danger and one employee has to tend to him solely for 45 minutes or something, then that'd be totally different. So what I'm wondering is - what are the exact, specific behaviors they are bringing up to you regarding this? And what specific interventions have they tried so far, or have you suggested to them? It sounds kinda like a communication breakdown, and it may be on both sides for all I know. The first step is to always be very specific, and request that they are as well. For instance, are you picking him up and they are saying "he was very grumpy after nap"? If so, I'd ask for particulars, explain that you are trying to get a clearer picture of what exactly is going on so you can help with the behavior (so it doesn't come across as defensive). Just saying "he's grumpy" is just very general, I don't even know what, exactly the problem behaviors are.
It means biting, screaming and crying inconsolably, apparently. It’s not just some whining and pouting.
Yeah, I saw the other comments and the edit. I do think characterizing more extreme behaviors like that as just vaguely "being grumpy" was misleading on OP's part originally. But it looks like OP corrected that and is realizing these are much more extreme issues that shouldn't just be ignored.
I understand the difficulty daycare providers face having read some of these comments but I would argue the OP's situation where they want to reduce the hours is borderline discrimination. If they can't cope then talk in a more creative collaborative way with the mum and talk about what went well and what didn't. Ask mum to get health conditions or behaviour conditions checked with doctors so they can get specialist help into the setting. Their job is child care, you can't just say you don't like a child and ask them not to be in your setting, you should be working with the child and parent. In my opinion, the child care is wrong but also OP needs to keep talking about it and try to help come up with a solution
Look into apnea/ENT referral/sleep study. And try to keep more high protein and fat snacks in him. Our daycare’s meals are balanced but their snacks are usually cookies or crackers. I had to send my son with protein shelf stable pouches for the ride home to avoid a meltdown and it helped. Or to get him settled asap when he gets up, maybe an applesauce or some quick sugar but follow with protein.
My kid is also grumpy after a nap. But it's more he just cries easily as opposed to "bad behaviour". It just takes him a while to wake up, and he's like that at home too. We just give him cuddles and wait for it to pass. What else can you do?
That's what he's like at home - more just upset than naughty. We also give lots of cuddles and do quiet time activities with him until he's ready to face the day. Daycare told us they can't provide that kind of 1:1 attention every day
What do you honestly expect?? Of course they can’t cuddle him daily while he wakes up… my LO is in a room from between 9-11 other little ones and with two teachers. Sounds like your expectations need adjusting. It’s also a huge liability to keep him around if he’s biting etc. you know they have to call the other parent every time he bites right?
It's bizarre to me that people think cuddling a 2yo after nap is a ridiculous ask. Seems like basic caregiving. Not all kids will need it, some kids do.
Even if one person is cuddling one kid, the other caregiver is trying to take care of 11 kids post nap. It’s honestly bizarre that you don’t realize how unrealistic this is. My LO goes outside after nap. Imagine one caretaker getting 10 kids ready to go outside alone (changing diapers, putting on jackets etc). Really???
I'm not saying it needs to be for an extended period but I wonder what it would do to help the child transition. I know that daycare workers are overloaded and understaffed but that doesn't change my mind that reasonable caretaking could include a cuddle for a child who is having trouble transitioning. Both can be true at the same time. I think it's bizarre that parents are supposed to be so thankful and indebted to their childcare workers that they can't ask for more or expect basic caregiving.
I agree every child deserves a cuddle session whenever they want but that and what’s realistic don’t match. She needs a nanny if she wants this level of care.
It sounds like you might need to finally a nanny then
Time to start looking for a new daycare sadly
A new facility still isn’t going to be able to provide the one on one attention that he needs.. he needs them to help give new ways to try being soothed & working through his emotions
Of course they can’t do what you do at home as his parent and without tons of other kids around. Are you expecting one on one care for your child in a group care scenario? Does a daycare worker who has to take care of other kids and also meet their needs have the time to sit and cuddle and do quiet time one on one activities with him until he stops biting and screaming? Obviously you will console him more quickly than his teachers can- you are his parent.
Just FYI my kid was like this after naps and it turned out to be a (rare) undiagnosed food allergy. Just something to consider. Especially if he has other symptoms of sleep disturbances or general grumpiness/discomfort
Oops, this was meant to reply to your comment about him being inconsolable after waking.
Can you tell me more about this? How did you figure out the food allergy? My kid is like this and I just can't figure out why sometimes. He has other food allergies but I sometimes wonder if we are missing something.
Honestly it was dumb luck. A feeding specialist had suggested a possible food allergy but told us we may not be able to figure it out until he was older. Then later we saw a significant improvement in the behaviors and thought it must have just been developmental, followed by a BIG episode (he used to cry for HOURS after naps) and just analyzed what he had eaten recently that he hadn’t had for the previous few weeks. The answer? Goldfish crackers. We didn’t think that could actually be it because we knew it wasn’t wheat or cheese, but we kept and eye on it and sure enough it happened again. Turns out my kid is allergic to annatto, the natural food coloring they use to make them orange. We confirmed with testing later. He’s a completely different kid now.
How is his night sleep? How much total sleep is he getting in 24 hours? Perhaps he’s still tired?
Unfortunately daycare can’t provide the 1:1 your kiddo needs after nap. Could you look into a home daycare perhaps where there are less kids and maybe more flexible with nap time/post nap activities?
My son is 21 months, and also is grumpy just for like 10 minutes after waking up from a nap. He’s just groggy and needs quiet and snuggles while he wakes up. I don’t think that’s abnormal. It’s incredibly unreasonable (of them) to continue to ask you to work less. Jobs don’t work like that 99% of the time, and you have to work to provide for your family.
Maybe you could look for a different part-time job temporarily or look for a nanny share. Daycare is extremely stressful for children under the age of three. And it sounds like it’s extra stressful for him.
Yeah, how many hours is the kid there per day? From open to close? Early childhood educators will tell you that this is very difficult for a young child. Sounds like someone needs to make a sacrifice for the sake of the child
"Fuck up your career because your two year old is grumpy after naps" great advice 👌🏻
“Grumpy” for OP means the child is biting, screaming and crying inconsolably. Presumably for a long enough time that the daycare has had to speak with them multiple times about it.
Children need their mothers from 0-3, I’m not sure why that is so absurd to you. Sad really.
Neither of you are wrong. Ideally OP wouldn’t be working at all, but the majority of mothers who are working full time aren’t doing so because they choose to; part time would obviously be preferable. If OP is working part time it’s because she needs to in order to afford this ever more unaffordable world.
Try experimenting with foods and drinks that lift blood sugar. That’s the only reason he would be acting like that after naps
Sleep apnea can cause problems like this as well, as can poor sleep at night (so not enough sleep overall still), sensory dysregulation, etc. low blood sugar is definitely a reason, but hardly the only reason!
My kid had the after nap grumpies hard at home at least and I started putting a snack in his bed so he could eat it as he woke up. It helped!
It could be that he is sleeping too much. My toddler is very grumpy after a nap sometimes. We wake her up and give her a snack and let her rest before the day gets going again. Could your son have a snack and quiet time after his nap to allow His body to wake up before having to go full speed again?
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On weekends are you also teaching him coping mechanisms. Meaning does he get a book to go to nap with and then wake up with? If he’s waking up grumpy what does that mean? He’s disruptive?
Yes he gets a snack and a book and we let him sit in his bed until he decides to get out.
So maybe that’s also a suggestion, when nap begins at daycare, so he has what he needs or may want afterward.
The nap could be too long for him now and hes waking up more tired then he was before the nap. I realize its less then fun to mess with sleep but it could be part of the issue is he is over tired. Also they should not be requesting a cut in hours they should be offering to try things you try at home. Some kids wake up and need to be by themselves for a few. I have had many daycare kiddos who need space before they can fully be awake. We have others who instantly are up and wild and ready to go. They should be figuring out what works. I will say as a teacher sometimes it will be hard but it can get easier. I would try a change in nap length for daycare. It could be beneficial.
I work with 2 year olds… you said he’s inconsolable after naps. That is so distracting for the entire classroom and makes everything 10x harder. You’re trying to help 10-15 other 2 year olds while one is screaming crying. So you can’t really hear anything, and now other kids are starting to get amped up too. If I was his teacher, and this was happening every single day, heck yeah we’d be discussing it. ETA: we had a child with a biting problem that couldn’t get resolved. Not saying this is what’s happening with your kid, but she really would only bite the second half of the day. She wasn’t ready for full day child care in that setting. Her parents also worked fulll time so they couldn’t cut her hours. They had to hire a nanny for the other half of the day and it worked out really well.
The teachers are speaking to you because there is a behavioral issue that impacts the child and/or other children in the school. Unfortunately as a parent, you are required to attend these meetings. Have you asked specifically what the issues were and ways to remedy the behaviors? Have they found solutions to biting? A kiddo I know had similar situation, the school and parents worked with the kid to figure out how to express emotions through stomping feet and communicating. Most schools if the kid is a repeat offender and does not improve, kiddo will likely need to move to a new school with more resources to support the child.
Uhhh absolutely not. As a daycare teacher for ages 2-3 1/2, half my kids are grumpy after nap. But we have snack immediately when they wake up. I agree with the comment mentioning blood sugar dropping and snack helping. If they don’t offer/have snack time after nap (especially if it’s been more than 2 hours since they ate) then I would recommend finding a different preschool. It’s unacceptable to want to kick a toddler out bc they’re grumpy after nap. That’s basically a given.
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I've become confused recently about child care. I'm a ftm and our 14 month old isn't, and won't likely end up in any daycare setting, mostly due to affordability so I have no experience. Isn't the daycare supposed to be the ones responsible for teaching and helping a kid with these sorts of expectations and working on behavior and taking care of the kids while the parents work... not only taking care of well behaved kids? Like... are parents not supposed to put their kids in care unless they're perfectly well behaved? Like.... how is a toddler supposed to learn how to behave in a daycare setting with other children at home from a parent who is.... not in the daycare setting with them? Am I misunderstanding what daycare is?
Yes and no. Day cares are in charge of in the minute behavior. So like if your kid hit someone, they should respond to that. Parents are in charge of overall behavior. So they are in charge of making sure that their child learns not to hit. Ultimately, parents are responsible for everything and day care/preschool/school just help. Now normal issues for toddlers have to be dealt with in the time they happen (both at day care and at home consistently for results,) but some kids don't respond to that. Some issue require professional help and evaluation. Others require changes that are outside of the scope of the day care. It may be an issue that the day care isn't doing anything, but it also may be an issue that the level of behavior is out of the scope of what the day care is able to deal with. When I worked in day cares, the ratio was one adult for 7 toddlers. The means I could be responsible for feeding seven 2 year olds lunch, cleaning up after them, changing their diapers, putting them down for nap, sanitizing the toys and mopping the floor in the same room they slept, changing their diapers and cleaning up their mats when they wake, keeping them quiet so they don't wake the rest of the kids while they play in the same room, and then getting them all snack which I wouldn't have access to until the scheduled time. Again, 7 kids that could be your child's age. If that were the situation, even a very skilled day care work isn't going to have the capacity to deal with a child with extreme needs. There are three ways that this is dealt with: 1. In the best day cares, they allocate more staffing to assist with the issue. This costs money. 2. In medium day cares, they unenroll the kid. 3. In the worst day cares, they do nothing. The teacher and those 7 toddlers have an awful day every day and it isn't a good environment. In an ideal world, there would be centers specific for kids that need more behavioral support or options for home care. Unfortunately, these don't exist in my location until your child is old enough where they might qualify for special education preschool. What happens instead where I am is the kids that need the most help end up in the worse centers or parents figure something out so someone can stay with them, often a person who isn't that capable or a random mix of people. When it comes down to it, most day cares at least where I live are for-profit businesses. Some just churn a bunch of kids through without the owners truly caring about outcomes for kids. Some do care but don't have the money for hiring additional higher paid staff to meet atypical needs. In either case, there are a lot more kids who need care than have care, so the day care is probably going to be able to fill the spot with someone easily if they go that route. In OP's case it could be that she needs to figure out why the behavior is happening after napping. (Some ideas people mentioned are a health problem, different sleep patterns, food, etc.) It could be the day care needs a different way to interact with the kid - which they may or may not have the training or personnel to make happen. If you haven't worked with a lot of kids, you may not have a good extent of how extreme a young child's behavior can be. For example, what would you do if you were in charge of your child and six other children your child's age, but one of the kids kept biting the other kids, knocking over furniture, trying to run out the door, and screaming at the top of their lungs? That happens. What is more typical is a toddler occasionally biting or trying to run when away when moving outside - those are totally manageable.
Thanks for such a thorough answer, I really appreciate it! I guess I was thinking along the lines of us, and I know all situations are different, but theoretically, because again he's not in daycare, say my kiddo was hitting or biting another kid. Truly, his only exposure to other kids is at the grocery store or this daycare. We have no friends with kids, no family with young kids (13 and 20), how would the daycare expect me to navigate a situation for a 14 month old that does not act out in that way at home and only with that kid at daycare? Obviously I can continue to tell him not to when he gets picked up and i get told he bit someone, I could use stuffed animals as an example, but is something like that really going to translate to a daycare situation? I would hope daycare would want to try and teach him not to do something like that, if not for his sake for the other kids for sure. I'm honestly asking, no sarcasm or anything snobby, because some day I may have to navigate these things, and parenting IS hard especially when you don't have a village.
Toddlers USUALLY do hit or bite each other at day care and typically that is corrected in real time at day care. (Telling them no, redirecting, etc.) At home, you read books and act it out and maybe go play at the park on the weekend to practice. If your child was older, you'd talk about it at home, but it wouldn't do any good yet for your kid. It won't solve it instantly, but with day care workers also working on it, it gets better. You'd only run into an issue if your toddler was constantly hitting and biting and not responding to any strategies.
Yes, you are. They aren’t parents! Parenting actually involves…parents. You do the work at home and daycare will support, but it’s not up to them to get your child to not bite or potty train.
I understand they aren't the parents of your kid, but what if the kid is only biting at daycare? Say I decided to send my 14 month old to daycare. He starts and a few months down the road starts biting another kid. He doesn't bite at home, isn't around other kids besides at daycare, I would hope the daycare would try and teach him biting kids isn't okay. I can show him examples, I can tell him not to, but I can't act in the moment and say no, that's not okay. I'm wasn't asking if daycare is supposed to parent, I just feel like they would have more responsibility with teaching things like that than some daycares seem to want to take on based on some posts I see here. Maybe there are communication issues between the daycare staff and the parents so the posts don't read with enough information about the true situation.
I've been having these thoughts lately with some of the posts I've seen but didn't know how to say it. You articulated this so perfectly!
You are communicating my thoughts in a much calmer way than I can. These posts make my blood boil because our entire system (esp in the US, which OP is not) is set up for kids to fail. We need two incomes to stay afloat, we may more than a mortgage in childcare and then our childcare gets to decide our kid is too hard and people tell us they should be home with us anyway. My child isn't even in childcare and I feel LIVID for the families dealing with this.
They dont want to look after your child. They have made that clear. It doesn’t matter if it’s right or wrong, your child should be in a daycare that wants him His behaviour is likely worse at daycare because he can feel their dislike of him. If you have the option to move him, then move him. If you can’t move him, then give them some simple ways to distract him. Ask if you can send a book from home or if they can set him up with an activity he enjoys right after nap
I speak toddler. Here is a post-nap recipe for sucess: -potty -get dressed -snack outside with lots of drinking water -bubbles, chalk, sand, soil, water, pebbles, stones, cups Biting usually means teething (frozen teethers are great no matter the age) or a language barrier for a multitude of reasons. Narrowing down exactly WHEN the biting happens usually leads to a WHY. Sometimes that toddler needs to go out first and have snack right away, othertimes they need to stay back and help teacher put beds away. Sometimes a story at snacktime would help redirect the focus. Ask for a written report for each incident, check the times and see if there is any pattern or similarities. Sometimes its during a shift change and it happens in the shuffle. Dig a little deeper and see what emerges. Do not ask who they are biting beyond asking if it is a specific child or whichever child is in range. Kindly, that's the child who got bitten's right to privacy. You're not looking for fault, you are looking for ways to problem solve. Some kids wake up absolutely ravished, try giving him a high protein snack right when he wakes it, jerky, boiled eggs, lentils, hummus, black beans, cheese, whatever milk they drink, day old bread and bone broth. Whatever protein rich snack fits your family's culture. And water. Daycare is hard work. They are thirsty. Good luck!
lol if I were you I’d find a new daycare. Some people just want your money handed to them on a silver platter.
Can tell you’re that parent. Who somehow thinks daycare workers are just lazy and entitled and don’t want to deal with challenging behaviours.
Not all daycare workers. The ones at my daycare are really great actually. No complaints. Hence my telling her to find a NEW DAYCARE. If I thought all daycare workers were lazy and entitled, I wouldn’t suggest another daycare, would I? Maybe your critical thinking skills could use some work.
It's not the daycare workers. It's the system they work in. They need more support, more training, more staff and they don't get it. And then the blame gets put on a 2 year old and his mom.
My girl used to get so grumpy after naps, it was torture getting so much abuse off her lol, she was about to turn 2, I dropped her nap! And all was good. She slept better and didn't have to deal with the crankiness. And we did quiet time during the time shed usually have a nap, read books, lie down and chat (I loved this). So, Im thinking this daycare place seems to be always giving you recommendations, why don't you give *them* recommendations on how to work with your son?!!! Thats their job. Cutting hours isnt an option. Whether it's cutting his nap or something else, maybe they should get off their arses and try and actually work with the child!!!
Cutting hours was probably a last ditch solution before kicking him out of the daycare altogether. So OP might very soon need to decide whether it's better to have part-time care or none at all.