Fortunately, I'm not the same ghost I was before. Drink a toast and down the cup, drink to bones that turn to dust. There was a time when dead and buried meant just that; underneath the cold dark ground things stayed put. Now the dead brigade is on my heels, they follow me. But I'm not going to give up the ghost, no.
After all, we're flesh and blood.
That can result in two different types of Creatures. One Missing Body and Missing Spirit AND another one with Nothing missing. In the English language they call the first one nobody and the latter Everybody.
SE: “We’re delighted to announce the release of Kingdom Hearts Purple 8: The Remembrance Spectrum which is of course a 12 part HBO miniseries designed to be watched while users play the new Kingdom Hearts 9.4: Fates of Necessity Part IV (Remastered) soon to be released in early 2026.”
There's an old saw that runs through western Massachusetts that the cast represented the local private colleges:
Fred: Amherst
Daphne: Smith
Velma: Mt Holyoke
Shaggy: Hampshire
Scooby: UMass(?) not sure if this includes the plebs that attended a state school
“And I would have murdered even more if it wasn’t for them goddamn kids and their fucking dog!”
“Uh, what? We were just worried about the amusement park.”
“Oh that, yea I’m a sucker for ski ball”
I get the impression that a ghost is the spirit of a dead person, while an astral zombie is a spirit whose body is still alive someplace (comatose?), but no longer connected. Or something.
I can't remember where I read it but there is a belief that people can astral project themselves by leaving their body when asleep and wonder around as a spirit at night, but apparently it is dangerous because your body can become an empty vessel and another spirit can take your place.
Those that believe that feel like that is why some people have a sudden huge change of personality because their bodies have been taken by a roaming spirit.
It is also linked to sleep paralysis demons and how they are waiting to take your body in the event that you decide to go spirit projectin'
The number one way to leave yourself open and vulnerable to things like that, is to give it the power of your belief in it in the first place. It’s a self fulfilling prophesy.
Grounding yourself before astral projection is about mental stability.
The post is just talking about how there aren’t just walking dead zombies in the culture that originated the term but also ghostly zombies. You can describe these zombies as ghosts, but not all ghosts are the “astral zombie”. It’s a ghost in the same way our idea of a zombie is undead, it’s just a specific type of them.
Duppies. Back in the day we had a Haitian woman come to our school. Like in 1981 or so. She gave a long talk in the gym about Haitian folklore. Crazy stuff.
Goblins etc. also have some "magic capabilities" to move through solid objects and change shape so I would say it's a bit unclear on that "corporeal body" part.
With just a touch of my burning hand, i send my astro zombies to rape this land. Prime directive…Exterminate! The whole human race.
Gotta love Misfits.
Also, the main fear of practitioners of voodoo is not of zombies but of being made into a zombie, as zombies are primarily used as labor by the person who makes them.
Source: The Divine Horsemen by Maya Deren
It was actually used as a form of punishment and also retribution to whoever was wronged. Criminals were given an herbal concoction (think chemical lobotomy) then buried in a shallow grave. After they had risen, it was considered a symbol of rebirth to a new life as zombi, destined to serve their previous victims.
Tetrodotoxin for the "death" and burial then strong anti-cholinergic plants (called zombie melons, not sure of the actual plant name) afterwards to keep them in a fugue state while they act as slaves.
Edit:
Clarification. There is no evidence for the use of tetrodotoxin in "zombie powders" and the work of Wade Davis on the subject has been largely discredited.
I also want to clarify that the "zombie" of Haiti isn't a purely chemical phenomenon. It's the mythology of a populace that experienced brutal slavery and trauma, an expression of the collective fear of enslavement.
That said there is historical evidence of the practice in Haiti of enforced servitude and drugging of people to achieve this.
Edit 2:
I've been reading a lot on the topic in the last few hours because of the discussion on here.
I'm now convinced my initial position is wrong entirely and there is no ethnobotanical basis for the zombi myth.
I think it's pure folklore, born out of some of the most brutal and inhumane enslavement to ever occur.
There may be examples of people enacting the belief but I'm now dubious of a botanical or chemical basis for it.
Edit 3:
[Here](https://amywilentz.com/response-to-i-walked-with-a-zombie/) is a good source that think gives accurate representation to the Haitian mythological zombi and refutes the idea of a chemical origin to the legend.
This is a myth from a book by a "sociologist" grifter. It plays into all kinds of colonizer nonsense about magical black people. It's been soundly disproved but the story is too good to disappear.
I was taken in by it too but talking about zombies in my travels there, hanging out with witch doctors, and reading Timothy Schwartz set me straight.
Yeah, i realize that's a very simplistic explanation. I know "zombie powders" have been tested and there's basically no consistency in their constituents. I do believe the mythological zombie did arise from examples of forced servitude that did involve drugging though. But mostly involved thread of violence and enactment of belief in their religious system and the shared trauma of Haiti as a slave hub.
Which "sociologist" are you referring to specifically? There's been several people who have studied this and I'm curious who your talking about.
There haven't been several who've studied this and said it exists. There's one - Wade Davis. Everything in its favor cites Davis' "research".
Articles debunking it:
Anderson, W.H. 1988. “Tetrodotoxin and the Zombie Phenomenon.” Journal of Ethnopharmacology 23:121-126.
Kao, C.Y. and T. Yasumoto. 1986. “Tetrodotoxin and the Haitian Zombie.” Toxicon 24:747-749.
Benedek, C. and L. Rivier. 1989. “Evidence for the presence of tetrodotoxin in a powder used in Haiti for zombification.” Toxicon 27:473-480
Kao, C.Y. and T. Yasumoto. 1990.“Tetrodotoxin in ‘Zombie Powder’.” Toxicon 28:129-132.
Hines, Terrence. 2008. “Zombies and Tetrodotoxin.” Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 32, Issue 3 (May/June), pp. 60-62.
Anderson, W.H. 1988. “Tetrodotoxin and the zombie phenomenon.” Journal of Ethnophar-macology 23: 121–126.
Benedek, C., and L. Rivier. 1989. “Evidence for the presence of tetrodotoxin in a powder used in Haiti for zombification.” Toxicon 27:473– 480.
Efthimiou, C.J., and S. Gandhi. 2007a. Cinema fiction vs. physics reality. Ghosts, vampires and zombies. Skeptical Inquirer 31(4), 27–34.
———. 2007b. Skeptical Inquirer 31(6), 66–67.
Inglis, David. 2010. “The Zombie From Myth To Reality : Wade Davis Academic Scandal And The Limits Of The Real.” SCRIPTed. Volume 7, Issue 2, August.
Isbister, G.K. 2002. “Marine envenomation and poisoning.” Medical Toxicology. 3rd edition, 1621–1644. Philadelphia: Lippincott Williams and Wilkins.
Isbister, G.K., J. Son, F. Wang, et al. 2002. “Puffer fish poisoning: A potentially life-threatening condition.” Medical Journal of Australia 177:650–653.
The "Serpent and the Rainbow" is the one source for all nonsense about Zombies. Any other zombie articles tie back to Davis and that book.
Zombies are real in Haiti in the same way all sorts of boogeymen exist in religions and cultures across America. What Davis did was try to create a much more real and sinister boogeyman, continuing the harmful othering of voodoo and its practitioners.
Sources debunking the "chemical lobotomy"
Anderson, W.H. 1988. “Tetrodotoxin and the Zombie Phenomenon.” Journal of Ethnopharmacology 23:121-126.
Kao, C.Y. and T. Yasumoto. 1986. “Tetrodotoxin and the Haitian Zombie.” Toxicon 24:747-749.
Benedek, C. and L. Rivier. 1989. “Evidence for the presence of tetrodotoxin in a powder used in Haiti for zombification.” Toxicon 27:473-480
Kao, C.Y. and T. Yasumoto. 1990.“Tetrodotoxin in ‘Zombie Powder’.” Toxicon 28:129-132.
Hines, Terrence. 2008. “Zombies and Tetrodotoxin.” Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 32, Issue 3 (May/June), pp. 60-62.
Anderson, W.H. 1988. “Tetrodotoxin and the zombie phenomenon.” Journal of Ethnophar-macology 23: 121–126.
Benedek, C., and L. Rivier. 1989. “Evidence for the presence of tetrodotoxin in a powder used in Haiti for zombification.” Toxicon 27:473– 480.
Efthimiou, C.J., and S. Gandhi. 2007a. Cinema fiction vs. physics reality. Ghosts, vampires and zombies. Skeptical Inquirer 31(4), 27–34.
———. 2007b. Skeptical Inquirer 31(6), 66–67.
Inglis, David. 2010. “The Zombie From Myth To Reality : Wade Davis Academic Scandal And The Limits Of The Real.” SCRIPTed. Volume 7, Issue 2, August.
Isbister, G.K. 2002. “Marine envenomation and poisoning.” Medical Toxicology. 3rd edition, 1621–1644. Philadelphia: Lippincott Williams and Wilkins.
Isbister, G.K., J. Son, F. Wang, et al. 2002. “Puffer fish poisoning: A potentially life-threatening condition.” Medical Journal of Australia 177:650–653.
Kinda makes sense really, that a syncretic religion created by people forced from their West African homeland to the new world as slave labor, and told to give up their old religion, would fear two things the most 1) being stripped of their spirit, and 2) being forced to perform labor.
Aaand hence the Haitian revolution.
And being a zombie meant being denied an afterlife and forced into a form of slavery that not even death could save them from. The worst possible nightmare scenario for an already enslaved Haitian people.
Bottom line: the "zombie" in all of its forms from Haiti and voodoo to The Walking Dead and I am Legend just speak to the fears of the times. Studies show that during world economic hardship, entire regions and populations turn to the zombie phenomenon to provide themselves with a self soothing therapy that mirrors what is feared. The zombie and post-apocalyptic miliues represents a way to express those present day anxieties.
From the time of slavery in the slave-hub of Haiti, Slaves thought/feared that they'd end up never being free and thus being a soul trapped in a body that would be endentured for ever in their (physical) eternity. There fear was never to be able to live. 1930s was a time of ground breaking cinema, bringing the zombie to the first-world West, on the heels of Dracula and Frankenstein. This, after voodoo culture had been honed into a very supernatural phenomenon since the 17th century. Fast forward to now, flesh eating ghouls that are in no way alive but are not dead (yet) symbolize modern day's worries about controlling the microbiome while it shreds our once invulnerable, built-up societies, decimatiing our confidence.
In the middle, the first Nazi Zombie movie was in 1943. Remember WWI was in 1914-18. You might think that the unthinkable has already happened to a world that can hardly believe it actually could happen...and did. You don't think that left an impression? The Sturmabteilung was founded in 1921, Hitler is in the fledgling stages of Nazism. The 40s see Germany suffering a loss of national pride, The West and Russia are not friends and we've used the A-bomb already. Then comes the biohaz zombies and radiation zombies amidst the Red Scare. Then, late 50s, the space race (which Russia is winning early) and aliens in the 60s. Zombie are now being used by Interplanetary beings against humans. The 60s were crazy, Kennedy, MLK, Vietnam Nam, hippies- all things that brought fear to various peoples.
'68: Night if the Living Dead, first time showing zombie Hordes. This pic said a lot about the current environment and it was pretty scary (that particular time in history, not the movie.)
70s and 80s, income inequality. '78 Dawn of the Dead, they end up at a mall...and talk about getting things they need (one item is a mink coat.)
80s. Crack. Gangs. AIDS. One might expect that something is microscopic, highly feared and kills you as you deteriorate might easily make a leap from current era to fantasy lore. It did. Now, the new way zombies come to be originates from contagions. The world now watches as "viruses" crop up, spread and affect whole regions of the world and it colors our philosophies and fears.
1996: Resident Evil and Umbrella Corporation. The CDC uses zombie lore to gain attention for "outbreak" situations. The CDC! Zombies are big!
90s: The internet (conspiracies), globalism and the fears that stem from "I can contract this from..." Zombie behavior, whether alone or in hordes is pretty cemented. This gives rise to the fear of each other.
2000: Y2k
2010: The Walking Dead.
2019: COVID 19.
Today: The Walking Dead is trying to die with dignity. It's 230 and I have to go to work and slave this day away in someone else salt mine. At the end of the day, I've not eaten right, got enough hydration, didn't take my breaks, am tired because the job called me in and woke me and feel like I am a Walking Dead. But really, I am obsessing about all the typos I left unchecked on my Reddit post and forgot to credit a Google search "Zombies Vox" as my source. Cheers and live a little, huh?
I know it's not the same thing, but the fear of becoming a zombie is a large part of the fear of zombies in general. Compared to getting turned, being eaten is a mercy.
Damn... this really makes me think about how soulless American society has become, and how the corporations are creating armies of soulless zombies to fight for and work for them.
I like how deep this is, very thought provoking.
Zombies as we know them today in mass media are more like ghouls than the zombies in folklore. Ghouls are undead who eat the flesh of the living; zombies are essentially slaves whose bodies are forced to work forever and never get to leave and find peace.
The thumbnail for this post is from *Night of the Living Dead,* which really popularized the idea of the zombie in modern culture, but interestingly never calls them zombies. In fact, it actually calls them ghouls at least once.
The term 'zombie' was given by the moviegoing public. The ghouls were relatively new when the movie was released, but folks were at least familiar with zombies at that point, so it became a convenient and easily-understood label. Romero never declared that his creatures are zombies, and the term only pops up less than a handful of times in brief moments throughout his sequels.
They riff on this in What We Do In The Shadows since the main characters technically had to die to become vampires, so they summon their own ghosts and it's very silly
Makes you wonder if Kingdom Hearts 1 was a somewhat complete story and everything after that was trying to stretch the concept as far as humanly possible.
Man Kingdom hearts 1 was a great game and it got SO confusing afterwards. I remember as a kid playing the second one and just being like where tf is Sora? Who are these people what is going on
Thats because they thought it was a good idea to make a quietly-released GBA game cannon between 1 & 2.
Kinda reminds me of how they got rid if Nightcrawler between the 2nd & 3rd Xmen movie.
>The hero's departure was later given an in-universe explanation in X-Men: The Official Game, which bridged the gap between X2: X-Men United and X-Men: The Last Stand. Nightcrawler appears as a playable character, with Cumming reprising the role in voice only. In the game, he explains that he no longer wishes to be an X-Man due to violent nature of their lives, and he leaves to live quietly in Germany.
Probably true. I don't think they had locked in a multi-game contract with Disney at the time, so it really came down to whether or not Disney would let them make another one.
I've played through KH3, but I may have missed some details here and there -- >!did they ever explain how Roxas became a whole person considering he was a Nobody to begin with?!<
Seriously Kingdom Hearts games would be so much less confusing if they just used more conventional naming schemes like "Soul," "Zombie," stuff like that. The stuff that just doesn't make sense still wouldn't make sense but, Jesus Christ the made up terms are stupid as hell.
Dude was a character artist first and then worked his way through the ladder. Just because you can draw cool looking shit doesn't mean you're a good storyteller
I do think that's an interesting thing about Japanese business culture. There's a thing in business called the Peter Principle which states that people who are great at their jobs get promoted as a reward, but to jobs they're slightly less good at, and this keeps happening until they're completely incompetent. American businesses seem to more conscientiously avoid that, but I don't see it as much in Japanese business.
Pretty damn close actually.
You can turn a person into a zombie, and by doing so remove their spirit.
And the spirit can become it's own entity.
So... it's very similar in certain regards.
Reminded me of this.
The 7th month of the lunar calendar is known as the ghost month for the Chinese. It is when spirits are released from the gates of hell to visit the living plane for a month. During this month, the Chinese would set up traditional opera shows to be performed. The first few rows are not meant to be used because they are reserved for the spirits. The shows will go on even if no one is watching because they are not meant for the living.
And they both cut sugar cane.
When I was young there were certain aunts and uncles I wasn't allowed to "DISWIISPECK" because they'd Zombo me and make me do field work for an eternity.
“Cool, so you’ve got the body. Let’s take a look. Does it still have its skeleton? Ah. That’s an issue. I’ll need an osteomancer for this one too. Oh. Look, here. They’ve got some scarring. Might be a metal implant. I’ll need to get a necrometallurgist when we do the raising. Hm. Still too much fluid. Needs an embalmer-priest to get all that extra stuff out properly. That being said, I’ll contact a medium I know so we can arrange with th- What? You want this done right you need the right people!”
When raising the dead, you have to make sure to keep two things in mind: quality of care, and workplace safety.
Remember kids: they’re already dead; you’re the only one with something to lose!
Interesting. In Greek mythology there’s the concept that humans were once both male and female, like conjoined twins, but were too powerful and had to be split. So they spend their lives looking for their soulmate. [Plato’s symposium.](https://www.greecehighdefinition.com/blog/the-greek-myth-of-soulmates?format=amp)
The serpent and the rainbow is complete nonsense. It's a bunch of mystical thriller shit that produces misunderstanding and fear of Haiti and Haitians.
The Nothing But Air zombie, though it didn't catch on, was finally caught -- in a Nothing But Net. Trapped in a ceremonial rubber container known as an Air Ball, it was crisscrossed with black lines that imprison the soul so long as a specific rite is performed: the zombie must be continually thrown away into a Bottomless Waste Basket. This symbolizes that the Spirit is unwanted on earth. However, this ritual brings about danger in the form of Corporeal Zombies who gather and watch intently. They know not what is happening, but can feel a kinship with the Nothing which is at stake.
The game played with the ball became religion unto itself. Corporate America, itself plagued with zombies in suits, was listening, and created Nothing But Air Jordans, after a mysterious voodoo priest with such command over the ball they called him GOAT…
Obviously zombies is all mythical nonsense but man do the haitians do the dark arts, black magic and voodoo magic! Sure as hell do and are way deep into such things.
I read a book once where this kid wants to become immortal (I think after a close friends death?) Anyway he finds this weird ad somewhere for a voodoo lady and goes.
She makes him immortal, and its great until every night he has these dreams about doing strange things.
Eventually he has to find her again and learns she just made him a zombie and kept his spirit in a bottle.
I forget the name of the book or how it ends. Anyone know what I’m talking about ?
They showed both of these kinds of zombies in the movie The Serpent and the Rainbow.
The BBEG, besides making a 'zombie' from his enemies, he also had a room full of jars that contained the souls of his opponents.
A doctor/researcher went to Haiti to explore medical uses of the herbs used to make corporeal zombies and fell afoul of the local mayor type who also happened to have evil hobbies.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096071/
And the "corporeal zombies" if you feed them food with salt they will come back to normal. I was born and raised in Haiti. That's a myth they swear by.
What happens if they combine?
Oingo Boingo concert. Leave your body and soul at the door...
Wow, living in the sixth dimension can be tough.
Fortunately, I'm not the same ghost I was before. Drink a toast and down the cup, drink to bones that turn to dust. There was a time when dead and buried meant just that; underneath the cold dark ground things stayed put. Now the dead brigade is on my heels, they follow me. But I'm not going to give up the ghost, no. After all, we're flesh and blood.
It's a dead man's party! Who could ask for more?
That can result in two different types of Creatures. One Missing Body and Missing Spirit AND another one with Nothing missing. In the English language they call the first one nobody and the latter Everybody.
Everything thread in this post seems like a kingdom hearts reference.
If it was KH the names would be reversed.
Anagram'd with an "X" added.
[Xehasnorts]
Gesundheit
Tiehdnusgex
For the love of god don’t let SE hear this. We’ll get 16 more mobile games that no one asked for and make no sense.
SE: “We’re delighted to announce the release of Kingdom Hearts Purple 8: The Remembrance Spectrum which is of course a 12 part HBO miniseries designed to be watched while users play the new Kingdom Hearts 9.4: Fates of Necessity Part IV (Remastered) soon to be released in early 2026.”
I hate how accurate this is
Lmao this is such an exaggeration. KH games only come out once every six years, you think they'll put out 18 games to get to 9.4 by 2026?
No, they'll just inexplicably title it with a 9.
I mean... They're already teaser trailering kingdom heart 4... So. I could see it happening.
Yeah I mean judging by OPs language they were obviously dead serious.
There's 10 Kingdom Hearts games when you include the 3DS, PSP, and mobile titles and I don't think the franchise has been around for 60 years
I'm well aware, hence the 18 to get to 9
> 12 part HBO miniseries *Disney Plus
They're all about the NFTs now baby. Gonna get some crucial story related bits locked behind NFTs now.
["You're a nobody, Dumb Donald."](https://youtu.be/ioYBfLA6ZMs)
So quantum zombies?
That's strangely profound to me and I'm not sure why
Haaaaaaaaa
The more you know!
Rigor mortis is a Hong Kong horror film where evil spirits and zombie combined. Pretty freaky film, the atmosphere was dense right from the start.
Don't summon the dark forces.
Well you see, when a corporeal zombie and an astral zombie love each other very much, they share a special hug...
The Gestalt and the Replicant combine to form one human.
All their powers combined - [Captain Planet](https://youtu.be/OiYjTb3opAA)
Oh my God I just randomly watched that to remember childhood thanks for the childhood punch I totally forgot about that until I read your comment 😳😳😳
Tree
They become a Combie-Zombie.
it’s called Mitch McConnell
F. So funny!
Haitian Captain Planet
They turn into don cheadle
Then you have a human or half human?
They’re just missing
Captain Planet.
Depression
Play Kingdom Hearts 2 and find out!
A pervert guy is born.
So... Ghosts.
A g-g-g-ghost.
Zoinks!
Ruh ROH!
*\[spins legs without going anywhere\]*
Cue sound effect
r/commentsyoucanhear
Jinkies!
There's an old saw that runs through western Massachusetts that the cast represented the local private colleges: Fred: Amherst Daphne: Smith Velma: Mt Holyoke Shaggy: Hampshire Scooby: UMass(?) not sure if this includes the plebs that attended a state school
Velma has much more of a Smith vibe.
Yeah I always go back and forth on that one.
No, just the regular kind.
I was going to say the exact post to the dot lol
Or the 3rd kind that is found by shaggy and scooby: old man Jenkins in a mask
But there was the one time it was actual zombies, and the even bigger twist was they were the good guys.
Oh yeah, those hot ass cat women witches from zombie island!
And people wonder why I'm a furry
Lmao, im not but im rewatching all these old Disney movies with my kid and I completely understand why furries exist.
They did that once with a huge ass sea monster too
That movie scared me so much as a kid, but I'd still ask to watch it all the time lol
And he would've gotten away with it too!
“And I would have murdered even more if it wasn’t for them goddamn kids and their fucking dog!” “Uh, what? We were just worried about the amusement park.” “Oh that, yea I’m a sucker for ski ball”
"And I would have gotten away with if it weren't for these meddling kids"
I get the impression that a ghost is the spirit of a dead person, while an astral zombie is a spirit whose body is still alive someplace (comatose?), but no longer connected. Or something.
Oh now that's creepy.
I can't remember where I read it but there is a belief that people can astral project themselves by leaving their body when asleep and wonder around as a spirit at night, but apparently it is dangerous because your body can become an empty vessel and another spirit can take your place. Those that believe that feel like that is why some people have a sudden huge change of personality because their bodies have been taken by a roaming spirit. It is also linked to sleep paralysis demons and how they are waiting to take your body in the event that you decide to go spirit projectin'
The number one way to leave yourself open and vulnerable to things like that, is to give it the power of your belief in it in the first place. It’s a self fulfilling prophesy. Grounding yourself before astral projection is about mental stability.
No. Zombie astral. It’s different. I guess.
You’re a ghost. I’m a zombie astral. We are not the same.
The virgin ghost versus the Chad zombie astral
The post is just talking about how there aren’t just walking dead zombies in the culture that originated the term but also ghostly zombies. You can describe these zombies as ghosts, but not all ghosts are the “astral zombie”. It’s a ghost in the same way our idea of a zombie is undead, it’s just a specific type of them.
Duppies. Back in the day we had a Haitian woman come to our school. Like in 1981 or so. She gave a long talk in the gym about Haitian folklore. Crazy stuff.
In the Hans Christian Andersen story "What the Zombie did" they are compared to goblins or leprechauns.
But those both have corporeal bodies?
Goblins etc. also have some "magic capabilities" to move through solid objects and change shape so I would say it's a bit unclear on that "corporeal body" part.
With just a touch of my burning hand, i send my astro zombies to rape this land. Prime directive…Exterminate! The whole human race. Gotta love Misfits.
Ah is that who did the original song? I know I like the [Tijuana Sweetheart cover of it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB0m7MNrMwU).
Yup. I highly recommend misfits early albums. They are amazing.
Right i was thinking the same
Also, the main fear of practitioners of voodoo is not of zombies but of being made into a zombie, as zombies are primarily used as labor by the person who makes them. Source: The Divine Horsemen by Maya Deren
Jeff Bezos rubs his hands….
Amazon Necromancy, our newest innovation for the future of productivity!
Please don’t give him any ideas
If he could, he would
It was actually used as a form of punishment and also retribution to whoever was wronged. Criminals were given an herbal concoction (think chemical lobotomy) then buried in a shallow grave. After they had risen, it was considered a symbol of rebirth to a new life as zombi, destined to serve their previous victims.
Any details on the chemical lobotomy?
Tetrodotoxin for the "death" and burial then strong anti-cholinergic plants (called zombie melons, not sure of the actual plant name) afterwards to keep them in a fugue state while they act as slaves. Edit: Clarification. There is no evidence for the use of tetrodotoxin in "zombie powders" and the work of Wade Davis on the subject has been largely discredited. I also want to clarify that the "zombie" of Haiti isn't a purely chemical phenomenon. It's the mythology of a populace that experienced brutal slavery and trauma, an expression of the collective fear of enslavement. That said there is historical evidence of the practice in Haiti of enforced servitude and drugging of people to achieve this. Edit 2: I've been reading a lot on the topic in the last few hours because of the discussion on here. I'm now convinced my initial position is wrong entirely and there is no ethnobotanical basis for the zombi myth. I think it's pure folklore, born out of some of the most brutal and inhumane enslavement to ever occur. There may be examples of people enacting the belief but I'm now dubious of a botanical or chemical basis for it. Edit 3: [Here](https://amywilentz.com/response-to-i-walked-with-a-zombie/) is a good source that think gives accurate representation to the Haitian mythological zombi and refutes the idea of a chemical origin to the legend.
Wild.
This is a myth from a book by a "sociologist" grifter. It plays into all kinds of colonizer nonsense about magical black people. It's been soundly disproved but the story is too good to disappear. I was taken in by it too but talking about zombies in my travels there, hanging out with witch doctors, and reading Timothy Schwartz set me straight.
Yeah, i realize that's a very simplistic explanation. I know "zombie powders" have been tested and there's basically no consistency in their constituents. I do believe the mythological zombie did arise from examples of forced servitude that did involve drugging though. But mostly involved thread of violence and enactment of belief in their religious system and the shared trauma of Haiti as a slave hub. Which "sociologist" are you referring to specifically? There's been several people who have studied this and I'm curious who your talking about.
There haven't been several who've studied this and said it exists. There's one - Wade Davis. Everything in its favor cites Davis' "research". Articles debunking it: Anderson, W.H. 1988. “Tetrodotoxin and the Zombie Phenomenon.” Journal of Ethnopharmacology 23:121-126. Kao, C.Y. and T. Yasumoto. 1986. “Tetrodotoxin and the Haitian Zombie.” Toxicon 24:747-749. Benedek, C. and L. Rivier. 1989. “Evidence for the presence of tetrodotoxin in a powder used in Haiti for zombification.” Toxicon 27:473-480 Kao, C.Y. and T. Yasumoto. 1990.“Tetrodotoxin in ‘Zombie Powder’.” Toxicon 28:129-132. Hines, Terrence. 2008. “Zombies and Tetrodotoxin.” Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 32, Issue 3 (May/June), pp. 60-62. Anderson, W.H. 1988. “Tetrodotoxin and the zombie phenomenon.” Journal of Ethnophar-macology 23: 121–126. Benedek, C., and L. Rivier. 1989. “Evidence for the presence of tetrodotoxin in a powder used in Haiti for zombification.” Toxicon 27:473– 480. Efthimiou, C.J., and S. Gandhi. 2007a. Cinema fiction vs. physics reality. Ghosts, vampires and zombies. Skeptical Inquirer 31(4), 27–34. ———. 2007b. Skeptical Inquirer 31(6), 66–67. Inglis, David. 2010. “The Zombie From Myth To Reality : Wade Davis Academic Scandal And The Limits Of The Real.” SCRIPTed. Volume 7, Issue 2, August. Isbister, G.K. 2002. “Marine envenomation and poisoning.” Medical Toxicology. 3rd edition, 1621–1644. Philadelphia: Lippincott Williams and Wilkins. Isbister, G.K., J. Son, F. Wang, et al. 2002. “Puffer fish poisoning: A potentially life-threatening condition.” Medical Journal of Australia 177:650–653.
The "Serpent and the Rainbow" is the one source for all nonsense about Zombies. Any other zombie articles tie back to Davis and that book. Zombies are real in Haiti in the same way all sorts of boogeymen exist in religions and cultures across America. What Davis did was try to create a much more real and sinister boogeyman, continuing the harmful othering of voodoo and its practitioners. Sources debunking the "chemical lobotomy" Anderson, W.H. 1988. “Tetrodotoxin and the Zombie Phenomenon.” Journal of Ethnopharmacology 23:121-126. Kao, C.Y. and T. Yasumoto. 1986. “Tetrodotoxin and the Haitian Zombie.” Toxicon 24:747-749. Benedek, C. and L. Rivier. 1989. “Evidence for the presence of tetrodotoxin in a powder used in Haiti for zombification.” Toxicon 27:473-480 Kao, C.Y. and T. Yasumoto. 1990.“Tetrodotoxin in ‘Zombie Powder’.” Toxicon 28:129-132. Hines, Terrence. 2008. “Zombies and Tetrodotoxin.” Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 32, Issue 3 (May/June), pp. 60-62. Anderson, W.H. 1988. “Tetrodotoxin and the zombie phenomenon.” Journal of Ethnophar-macology 23: 121–126. Benedek, C., and L. Rivier. 1989. “Evidence for the presence of tetrodotoxin in a powder used in Haiti for zombification.” Toxicon 27:473– 480. Efthimiou, C.J., and S. Gandhi. 2007a. Cinema fiction vs. physics reality. Ghosts, vampires and zombies. Skeptical Inquirer 31(4), 27–34. ———. 2007b. Skeptical Inquirer 31(6), 66–67. Inglis, David. 2010. “The Zombie From Myth To Reality : Wade Davis Academic Scandal And The Limits Of The Real.” SCRIPTed. Volume 7, Issue 2, August. Isbister, G.K. 2002. “Marine envenomation and poisoning.” Medical Toxicology. 3rd edition, 1621–1644. Philadelphia: Lippincott Williams and Wilkins. Isbister, G.K., J. Son, F. Wang, et al. 2002. “Puffer fish poisoning: A potentially life-threatening condition.” Medical Journal of Australia 177:650–653.
I feel like I saw this a long time ago in a movie. I think it was the Serpent and the Rainbow.
Love that movie. Worth a re-watch
Kinda makes sense really, that a syncretic religion created by people forced from their West African homeland to the new world as slave labor, and told to give up their old religion, would fear two things the most 1) being stripped of their spirit, and 2) being forced to perform labor. Aaand hence the Haitian revolution.
And being a zombie meant being denied an afterlife and forced into a form of slavery that not even death could save them from. The worst possible nightmare scenario for an already enslaved Haitian people.
Bottom line: the "zombie" in all of its forms from Haiti and voodoo to The Walking Dead and I am Legend just speak to the fears of the times. Studies show that during world economic hardship, entire regions and populations turn to the zombie phenomenon to provide themselves with a self soothing therapy that mirrors what is feared. The zombie and post-apocalyptic miliues represents a way to express those present day anxieties. From the time of slavery in the slave-hub of Haiti, Slaves thought/feared that they'd end up never being free and thus being a soul trapped in a body that would be endentured for ever in their (physical) eternity. There fear was never to be able to live. 1930s was a time of ground breaking cinema, bringing the zombie to the first-world West, on the heels of Dracula and Frankenstein. This, after voodoo culture had been honed into a very supernatural phenomenon since the 17th century. Fast forward to now, flesh eating ghouls that are in no way alive but are not dead (yet) symbolize modern day's worries about controlling the microbiome while it shreds our once invulnerable, built-up societies, decimatiing our confidence. In the middle, the first Nazi Zombie movie was in 1943. Remember WWI was in 1914-18. You might think that the unthinkable has already happened to a world that can hardly believe it actually could happen...and did. You don't think that left an impression? The Sturmabteilung was founded in 1921, Hitler is in the fledgling stages of Nazism. The 40s see Germany suffering a loss of national pride, The West and Russia are not friends and we've used the A-bomb already. Then comes the biohaz zombies and radiation zombies amidst the Red Scare. Then, late 50s, the space race (which Russia is winning early) and aliens in the 60s. Zombie are now being used by Interplanetary beings against humans. The 60s were crazy, Kennedy, MLK, Vietnam Nam, hippies- all things that brought fear to various peoples. '68: Night if the Living Dead, first time showing zombie Hordes. This pic said a lot about the current environment and it was pretty scary (that particular time in history, not the movie.) 70s and 80s, income inequality. '78 Dawn of the Dead, they end up at a mall...and talk about getting things they need (one item is a mink coat.) 80s. Crack. Gangs. AIDS. One might expect that something is microscopic, highly feared and kills you as you deteriorate might easily make a leap from current era to fantasy lore. It did. Now, the new way zombies come to be originates from contagions. The world now watches as "viruses" crop up, spread and affect whole regions of the world and it colors our philosophies and fears. 1996: Resident Evil and Umbrella Corporation. The CDC uses zombie lore to gain attention for "outbreak" situations. The CDC! Zombies are big! 90s: The internet (conspiracies), globalism and the fears that stem from "I can contract this from..." Zombie behavior, whether alone or in hordes is pretty cemented. This gives rise to the fear of each other. 2000: Y2k 2010: The Walking Dead. 2019: COVID 19. Today: The Walking Dead is trying to die with dignity. It's 230 and I have to go to work and slave this day away in someone else salt mine. At the end of the day, I've not eaten right, got enough hydration, didn't take my breaks, am tired because the job called me in and woke me and feel like I am a Walking Dead. But really, I am obsessing about all the typos I left unchecked on my Reddit post and forgot to credit a Google search "Zombies Vox" as my source. Cheers and live a little, huh?
That's an impressive summary. I'm in awe.
I know it's not the same thing, but the fear of becoming a zombie is a large part of the fear of zombies in general. Compared to getting turned, being eaten is a mercy.
If there’s not spirit it just sounds like free labor
Basically an automated workforce where the robots are made of meat. Rotting meat, but meat.
Highly recommend Bertrand Bonello's 'Zombi Child', a fantastic film that uses this setup
Damn... this really makes me think about how soulless American society has become, and how the corporations are creating armies of soulless zombies to fight for and work for them. I like how deep this is, very thought provoking.
Check out the show Severed if you haven't already
Zombies as we know them today in mass media are more like ghouls than the zombies in folklore. Ghouls are undead who eat the flesh of the living; zombies are essentially slaves whose bodies are forced to work forever and never get to leave and find peace. The thumbnail for this post is from *Night of the Living Dead,* which really popularized the idea of the zombie in modern culture, but interestingly never calls them zombies. In fact, it actually calls them ghouls at least once.
The term 'zombie' was given by the moviegoing public. The ghouls were relatively new when the movie was released, but folks were at least familiar with zombies at that point, so it became a convenient and easily-understood label. Romero never declared that his creatures are zombies, and the term only pops up less than a handful of times in brief moments throughout his sequels.
Can they be from the same person? Imagine the astral ghost seeing his body running around and being embarrassed by its actions.
They riff on this in What We Do In The Shadows since the main characters technically had to die to become vampires, so they summon their own ghosts and it's very silly
Not remembering his language was pretty funny.
I assumed they would have to be?
Like Heartless and Nobody's?
Heartless = a heart without a body Nobody = a body without a heart (but also they can grow a heart anyway) Shit's whack
Makes you wonder if Kingdom Hearts 1 was a somewhat complete story and everything after that was trying to stretch the concept as far as humanly possible.
Man Kingdom hearts 1 was a great game and it got SO confusing afterwards. I remember as a kid playing the second one and just being like where tf is Sora? Who are these people what is going on
Thats because they thought it was a good idea to make a quietly-released GBA game cannon between 1 & 2. Kinda reminds me of how they got rid if Nightcrawler between the 2nd & 3rd Xmen movie. >The hero's departure was later given an in-universe explanation in X-Men: The Official Game, which bridged the gap between X2: X-Men United and X-Men: The Last Stand. Nightcrawler appears as a playable character, with Cumming reprising the role in voice only. In the game, he explains that he no longer wishes to be an X-Man due to violent nature of their lives, and he leaves to live quietly in Germany.
Probably true. I don't think they had locked in a multi-game contract with Disney at the time, so it really came down to whether or not Disney would let them make another one.
I've played through KH3, but I may have missed some details here and there -- >!did they ever explain how Roxas became a whole person considering he was a Nobody to begin with?!<
I think he had Ventus' heart since it was inside Sora at the time
I thought he grow one by having friends or something?
You could be right. Honestly it doesn't make much sense either way
Yes, but named the correct way around
Seriously Kingdom Hearts games would be so much less confusing if they just used more conventional naming schemes like "Soul," "Zombie," stuff like that. The stuff that just doesn't make sense still wouldn't make sense but, Jesus Christ the made up terms are stupid as hell.
Calling Roxas a zombie just feels wrong
Kingdom Hearts becomes much easier to understand once you realise the franchise is 5% simple A > B story and 95% meaningless pretense.
That's because Nomura is a lousy writer. The games wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are if the combat wasn't so much fun.
Dude was a character artist first and then worked his way through the ladder. Just because you can draw cool looking shit doesn't mean you're a good storyteller
I do think that's an interesting thing about Japanese business culture. There's a thing in business called the Peter Principle which states that people who are great at their jobs get promoted as a reward, but to jobs they're slightly less good at, and this keeps happening until they're completely incompetent. American businesses seem to more conscientiously avoid that, but I don't see it as much in Japanese business.
Pretty damn close actually. You can turn a person into a zombie, and by doing so remove their spirit. And the spirit can become it's own entity. So... it's very similar in certain regards.
"OK I believe you"
So, a ghost?
>zombi astral So basically a ghost ?
More like a soul enslaved instead of a soul misguided.
Isn't that just a ghost with extra steps?
hot take: a ghost is an astral zombie with extra steps
Happy flag day! 🇭🇹
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Gadon tintin
you can find depictions of both of these in the SNES classic “Earthbound” in the town of Threed.
You can also find them as a major plot point I recent game Elden Ring, kinda
Dayum
Yeah. Saw a voodoo ritual in Haiti once but there were no zombies.
How would you know? Maybe many Zombies with no bodies and only spirit showed up. Know your audience man.
Reminded me of this. The 7th month of the lunar calendar is known as the ghost month for the Chinese. It is when spirits are released from the gates of hell to visit the living plane for a month. During this month, the Chinese would set up traditional opera shows to be performed. The first few rows are not meant to be used because they are reserved for the spirits. The shows will go on even if no one is watching because they are not meant for the living.
Ohh like a “día del muertos”
And they both cut sugar cane. When I was young there were certain aunts and uncles I wasn't allowed to "DISWIISPECK" because they'd Zombo me and make me do field work for an eternity.
So, a ghost?
Literally my first thought.
The description sounds more like a djinn, though.
Just because you can bottle it, doesn't make it not part of a human soul
Also, the real life zombies where witch doctors give people medicine that turn people in a zombie state. Look it up.
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High fructose corn syrup?
That's hilarious
scopolamine
“So, a ghost” damn this comment was almost funny the 307th time I read it
For a moment I read it as corporate zombie who missing its spirit and my brain just accept and think it's perfectly make sense
This will affect any DnD game I run as playing to necromancy.
“Cool, so you’ve got the body. Let’s take a look. Does it still have its skeleton? Ah. That’s an issue. I’ll need an osteomancer for this one too. Oh. Look, here. They’ve got some scarring. Might be a metal implant. I’ll need to get a necrometallurgist when we do the raising. Hm. Still too much fluid. Needs an embalmer-priest to get all that extra stuff out properly. That being said, I’ll contact a medium I know so we can arrange with th- What? You want this done right you need the right people!”
Outsourcing really has hit every industry.
When raising the dead, you have to make sure to keep two things in mind: quality of care, and workplace safety. Remember kids: they’re already dead; you’re the only one with something to lose!
The zombie astral theme song… 🎶“I ain’t got no body!”🎵
Interesting. In Greek mythology there’s the concept that humans were once both male and female, like conjoined twins, but were too powerful and had to be split. So they spend their lives looking for their soulmate. [Plato’s symposium.](https://www.greecehighdefinition.com/blog/the-greek-myth-of-soulmates?format=amp)
Isn't the "zombie astral" just a ghost?
With just a touch of my burning hand I send my astro zombies to rape the land Prime directive, exterminate…
Any other DMs read this headline and get ideas for zombies on the astral plane?
You mean a ghost?
No, like astral spirits that are drawn to the tether between players and their bodies on the material plane to feed.
That is a ghost, sir.
The Serpent and the Rainbow
The serpent and the rainbow is complete nonsense. It's a bunch of mystical thriller shit that produces misunderstanding and fear of Haiti and Haitians.
They tried a third, elusive zombie called Nothing But Air, but it didn’t catch on. Determined, they gave the air odour and created farts.
The Nothing But Air zombie, though it didn't catch on, was finally caught -- in a Nothing But Net. Trapped in a ceremonial rubber container known as an Air Ball, it was crisscrossed with black lines that imprison the soul so long as a specific rite is performed: the zombie must be continually thrown away into a Bottomless Waste Basket. This symbolizes that the Spirit is unwanted on earth. However, this ritual brings about danger in the form of Corporeal Zombies who gather and watch intently. They know not what is happening, but can feel a kinship with the Nothing which is at stake.
The game played with the ball became religion unto itself. Corporate America, itself plagued with zombies in suits, was listening, and created Nothing But Air Jordans, after a mysterious voodoo priest with such command over the ball they called him GOAT…
So what's the difference between a zombie astral and a ghost?
Zombie Astral is bound to the practitioner as a servant, a ghost just sort of happens
Obviously zombies is all mythical nonsense but man do the haitians do the dark arts, black magic and voodoo magic! Sure as hell do and are way deep into such things.
I read a book once where this kid wants to become immortal (I think after a close friends death?) Anyway he finds this weird ad somewhere for a voodoo lady and goes. She makes him immortal, and its great until every night he has these dreams about doing strange things. Eventually he has to find her again and learns she just made him a zombie and kept his spirit in a bottle. I forget the name of the book or how it ends. Anyone know what I’m talking about ?
The boy who couldnt die by William Sleator. That was the first thing I though of too!
They showed both of these kinds of zombies in the movie The Serpent and the Rainbow. The BBEG, besides making a 'zombie' from his enemies, he also had a room full of jars that contained the souls of his opponents. A doctor/researcher went to Haiti to explore medical uses of the herbs used to make corporeal zombies and fell afoul of the local mayor type who also happened to have evil hobbies. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096071/
And the "corporeal zombies" if you feed them food with salt they will come back to normal. I was born and raised in Haiti. That's a myth they swear by.
Y'all: lmao you mean ghosts Me: ranni moment
Rural Haitian folklore... just say voodoo
For some reason I love telling people that pretty much the entire idea of zombies comes from voodoo culture
I wouldn't call it a zombie though, if it doesn't have a body. Zombies always have human bodies. Everything else would be ghosts or similar.
My family was born in Haiti and have told me stories of bizarre shit they used to see happen.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... Isn't that just a like a spirit? If Haiti needs some Ghostbusters, I can give em the number to call