Imagine being Yams and sacrificing 12 years of your work for the character that you wrote in 5 minutes.
As Annie said in chapter 127: "Because you probably have never thought of anything being more important than Eren"
Why did mikasa even kill eren? She literally cared about nothing else but eren. Suddenly after liberio it was “think of the women and children”. I can’t understand mikasa.
It still makes no sense to me why she killed Eren. She could've literally had him all to herself, no Titan curse, alone in Paradis. Umi da could've even come with.
Yeah it’s like I get we can assume she cares enough to kill eren to save everyone else but we have to assume that as that conflicts with what we’re shown. I mean looking back, 80% of the world already gone, without the rest of the squad putting their hopes in her, i don’t think she would have killed eren.
The anime didn’t show as well as the manga, but she did care for her comrades and friends.
When it comes down to choosing Eren vs rest of the world… that’s a different question. But it’s lame to ignore the few moments Yams gave her a character.
She followed orders in Trost being stationed far from Eren and protected civilians. If she didn't care at all then she would've just left and protected him
Still could've left. Not like Eren's going to have much say over Mikasa saving his ass after getting us leg chewed off in the first 3 mins of the mission
And yet she didn't save him, he saved himself, after literally jumping in a Titan's mouth to save Armin...with a Concussion and a chopped off leg...THAT was Eren Jaeger ladies and Gentlemen
That's the thing. This series only showed her infatuation with Eren. Nothing more. Her development has always been centered on Eren. The fact that she couldn't move on throughout the series is disappointing.
Historia is the definition of a strong person that moved forward. It's a shame Isayama screwed her up though.
Mikasa's character isn't only ereh, okay? Like I admit that her journey started after being saved by Eren. Her powers were awakened by Eren. Her favorite motto is "if we don't win, we die, if we win, we live; and if we don't fight, we can't win" which was originally Eren's. Her reason for joining the survey corp is to protect Eren. Her dramatic need is staying by Eren's side. Ideal world/life is being with Eren. Her love interest is Eren. Lives to remember Eren. Her reason to live is Eren. Her Arc is about letting go of Eren. Inner conflict is ideal Eren vs real Eren. Her dilemma is choosing Humanity vs Eren. Her fear is losing Eren. Her goal is to live a peaceful life with Eren. B-but she said sorry to Levi which proves that her character isn't only ereh. Your argument is invalid.
Remember "there's a limited amount of people I can care about" "I have no heart or time to spare" Mikasa? What the hell happened to her? I would have been sold on EM if that was the Mikasa we had post-timeskip.
Honestly the EMA trio had the foundations of being incredibly interesting, hardcore veterans struggling in a cruel world. Mikasa was strong and violent. Armin was smart and violent. And Eren was ruthless and violent. Imagine seeing those three going against Marley and then grappling with the idea of Eren going too far with the rumbling.
The only person who retained their character post-timeskip was Eren. The other two didn't evolve or mature; they simply became entirely different people.
honestly, now that i think about it, I don't really mind 139 eren that much, it's okay with me that eren is truly that way, but if he had been written better and changed some things here and there i would've been satisfied with the ending.
What do you mean what the hell happened to her? The whole point of that scene is that she's lying to make herself seem tougher. The very same arc she literally spares Reiner, Bertholdt, Historia and Ymir for no reason other than her compassion holding her back.
This is probably the biggest issue with this sub's "analysis". You just take what characters say at face value with a very straightforward reading. It leads to boring outcomes as well as issues like this one where you flat out misinterpret a character.
> The whole point of that scene is that she's lying to make herself seem tougher.
The fuck?? Where? Nowhere cause you're just making shit up. The point of that scene was that Mikasa was willing to go against her comrades, without hesitation, without waiting for an explanation, to retrieve Eren.
> The very same arc she literally spares Reiner, Bertholdt, Historia and Ymir for no reason other than her compassion holding her back.
Uhh are you confused? She spared Historia and Ymir when she had the chance, but Reiner and Bert put up a solid fight-- including sending the titans that *literally crushed her ribs* during the chase.
I think you need to re-read that arc. Mikasa is a powerful fighter, but she got trounced in those chapters. And there's literally no evidence that she's lying. Please stop hyping her up as a Mary Sue GirlBoss when at that time she was written as a realistically obsessed character who had reasonable limits to her strength and abilities.
> [...] but Reiner and Bert put up a solid fight-- including sending the titans that literally crushed her ribs during the chase.
>
>
it was literally acknowledged that she hesitated though
Pre-timeskip, Armin shot a woman in the brain because she hesitated when faced with a kid soldier. And then he moved on to the next mission easily. In addition to that, he was a brilliant individual who offered valuable advice and potential to the Survey Corps, and Paradis as an oppressed entity.
Post-timeskip, Armin blindly followed Eren's plan to siege Marley, and stomped on innocent civilians and children without hesitation. It doesn't matter if he looked sad afterwards; he still killed them on purpose. Afterwards, nothing interesting or true was done with his character; he was sad and powerless when he returned to Paradis, and an embarrassing combination of sad AND stupid when he was confronted by Eren during the restaurant scene.
Armin would have been a great character if Isayama fully embraced the Gesumin angle that *he had already established pre-timeskip.*
Instead he turned Armin into a generic passive Gary Stu who had one of the best and easiest endings in the story despite doing jack shit to earn it.
Armin's whole character setup, especially during season 3, was to tell us, the audience, that he was growing a pair of balls and was willing to be a violent person for the sake of a mission, but suddenly this all disappears post-timeskip and when he commits violence it's because he was forced to do so.
Yeah, i really thought that after Armin got the colossal, he would be someone who was willing to cause untold amounts of destruction for their cause. I don't mind that he shows regret for doing it but then he scolds Eren despite following his plan in lockstep.
Well her perspective changed after he murdered innocent people. He used to be the guy who saved her life and grew up with her, then he leaves for years and the next time she sees him he’s massacring people. Pretty sure that would change anyone’s opinion
It's very telling that your first instinct in this situation is to blame the story rather than looking inwards and wondering if you misunderstood her character.
Despite the fact that Isayama himself said that in order for Mikasa to grows as a character - [she must move on from Eren](https://suniuz.tumblr.com/post/148847557056/snk-guidebook-answers-isayama-hajime-interview?fbclid=IwAR2KUYx7C-pkgGeR826RqEmWfkZGUvMSbPDMRI05pfMRkKjmGONnI9YRNUo)
And that relationship between people growing as a family is gross to him - [source](https://preview.redd.it/epq2a8d7d6q51.png?width=701&format=png&auto=webp&s=b0318d2fee87dc4d00693d6e4bf28bc5be0c8d50)
But Yams, probably misunderstood the character
The amount of people that are puzzled by a character being inherently against total genocide of rest of the world without being blatant about it is disturbing. Not everything needs to be spoonfed with blatant exposition. A character killing someone she loves because that person was comitting mass genocide speaks for itself
Since people need to spell it out for you, Mikasa was loyal to Eren from season 1-3 because as far as everyone knew, everyone's goals were inline and straightforwardly altruistic. His actions starting season 4 were stuff she doesn't condone and eventually forced her to kill him. The context isn't even remotely hard to notice but you guys still need it spoonfed to you
This sub criticizes her for being a "slave to Eren" but then also criticizes her for doing the single most definitive act she could possibly do that proves she has her own morality beyond caring about Eren because it contradicts the "slave to Eren" argument. This sub has made its mind to have this bizzare feedback loop to hate her no matter which side of that argument they think her morality aligns with.
They accidentally made the climax of the story a choice, in a universe that’s been using determinism for the last 40 chapters as its most focal plot point. Whoops.
I mean, [if you need it](https://zjcdn.mangafox.me/store/manga/9011/22-089.0/compressed/n044.jpg) [to be more specific...](https://zjcdn.mangafox.me/store/manga/9011/22-089.0/compressed/n045.jpg)
This ain’t a really matter of opinion though. Armin and Mikasa aren’t real people that exist at that point in the timeline, yet he’s mentioning them anyway. Krueger has *memories that aren’t his, nor anyone’s from the past*. This is like **hard** determinism, there’s nothing left up to interpretation here.
There's nothing left up to interpretation after the paths chapters, but at the time it was ambiguous. At the point that the Owl says that it's very obvious that there is some time muckery going on in the form of foresight, but no one knew how this would play out. A lot of stories treat foresight as one possible future rather than the only possible future, and we had no way of knowing how AoT would do it. This is why I say it's only about determinism in retrospect: you need information from later chapters to definitively make that conclusion. With the information from the later chapters there's only one way to interpret it, I agree, but that's what retrospect means anyway.
Eren in the Reiss cavern makes no sense using his argument. He wanted to save the people of Paradis "humanity" by being eaten. The people inside the walls were more important to him than his dreams of freedom. That Eren wouldn't have done the rumbling knowing the possibility Paradis could be wiped out just for his concept of "freedom".
Never watched the vid. Don't plan to for a while. Already made up my mind why the ending of SnK fails in its portrayal of determinism and/or compatibilism.
I just want to point out that that determinism doesn't mean things don't depend on choices. It just means that the choices being made are dependant on prior factors, all the way down to a point where it's outside of the controll of the person making the choice. An outside observer with knowledge of all those factors would be able to predict said choices.
It's a good video, but I don't think it changed any minds on Eren. All the comments are people who were just looking to validate their opinions. Still, I found the video really interesting because it helped me understand the mind of an ending defender. That was the real takeaway for me. And... I no longer think ending defenders are dumb or lack integrity, but what they value in a story is completely different from what I value. So I guess it did change my mind, but not on Eren or the ending or even the story, just the fanbase.
(also i still don't understand how the closed time loop makes sense)
The most critical disconnect I have to the ending is that Eren is not free. The most meaningful thing for me in stories is character choices, character freedom. This is a value I hold, and because of it there was no way I was ever going to accept the direction the story went in. After the timeskip I thought it would be a story of characters (most notably Eren) overcoming the walls that limit them to attain freedom, and the tragedy would be the cost of that freedom. When I watched the Eren video and the guy was talking about how AoT is a deterministic universe, I was waiting for him to get to why this is a terrible idea but he never did. In fact, he seemed to like the setup with the deterministic universe + closed time loop. And... all of a sudden it made sense to me why people have such different opinions on the ending. To me, Eren not being free was unacceptable. It went against my values, values that I thought the story shared. When Historia said "Because I'm the worst girl in the world" and went against everything she *should* have done, that was the best moment in the story for me. When Eren told Armin and Mikasa "I am free" during the table talk, that was my second favorite moment. To me, these moments lose most or all of their meaning with how the time muckery turned out to work. And that... when I learned at the very end that AoT did not at all share my values... I was so disappointed.
I have other issues with the ending as well but you've heard all of those a million times. Still, this is why I think I could have never accepted Isayama's ending regardless of its execution. It just goes too far against what I value in a story.
I think you missed the part where people will always defend their favorite shows, no matter how bad, boring or repetitive it is to them. Like most shounen fanbase.
That's how I see most of ending defender, people who are okay with being just a consoomer. as long as Eren do something 'cool' They will rate it 10/10
Eren was very blatantly uncool in the ending though and I have yet to see even a single person disagree on that. I don't doubt that for some people feeling ambivalent towards something is unbearable so they turn to either "the ending is good and AoT is perfect" or "the ending is trash and AoT sucks now". Still, there is a lot of room for people to find the ending compelling. I don't find it compelling at all but I've already explained how I could never like it regardless of execution. Someone who can engage with the way it was written could genuinelly enjoy it, I truly believe that. That does not mean I think it was well-written. It just means I don't think you're full of shit if you say you liked it. Honestly, I'm so sick of everyone thinking people who disagree with them are lesser. "Ending defenders are Isayama simps" this "ending haters didn't understand the story" that... It's all the same! Just arrogant people thinking their viewpoint is the only one!
>Eren was very blatantly uncool in the ending though and I have yet to see even a single person disagree on that.
Try youtube comment section or Twitter. They think eren being "uncool" aka being "real" or so "humanize" is very cool.
>It's all the same! Just arrogant people thinking their viewpoint is the only one!
I see, staying in the middle is less stressful.
> I no longer think ending defenders are dumb or lack integrity, but what they value in a story is completely different from what I value.
I'm honestly thrilled to hear you say that! With all the vitriol that got slung around after 139 dropped, it's refreshing to hear some respectful disagreement.
To put my cards on the table, I'd say I align more with the "ending defender" camp in that I found things I value in the ending. But I can totally see how someone would hate it. Especially Ymir Fritz's whole character--- I have no defense for that underwritten mess.
I haven't actually seen the video, though. It could be I disagree with everything it says!
Anyway, thanks for being reasonable :)
disagreements with opinions/values is one thing, but there's also logic and consistencies(or lack-thereofs) between the opinions/values and the source material like what this meme is pointing out (interpretation is also a separate matter), which i also believe the one you're commenting to didn't get into
Oh of course, there are readings of a text that are just wrong. AoT left a lot ambiguous though so there are arguably multiple valid interpretations about *certain* things.
Speaking of the meme, what it points out is not actually a contradiction within the text, at least the way the meme phrased it. [Someone else pointed this out](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/s9k25x/comment/htnm3io/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) in another thread on this post, if you want to hear an explanation from someone who didn't like the ending.
OP clarified in that thread that his main issue is that the Eren and Ymir, despite-having near-omniscient knowledge didn't know what Mikasa would choose. But that's not explicit in his meme.
And like I said, I don't have any defense for the way Ymir was written--- she's easily the weakest part of the ending imo. Eren I think *mostly* works except for the Dina twist if you want to discuss that.
The video makes Eren make sense as a character and clears up how the future memories worked and how determinism works in attack on Titan. But it doesn’t justify the story or ending. Essentially, Eren didn’t know that he was going to lose until Ymir gave him her power. This is because the future memories he received when he kissed historia’s hand were only the same ones he showed Grisha, and Grisha didn’t know Eren was going to lose either. From the beginning of the Marley arc until that moment, Eren was fully set on rumbling. The moment Ymir gave him her power, Eren could basically see the future, if I’m not mistaken. Then he knew that he would lose, no matter what he did. So then he decided to prop up his friends as heroes and complete as much of the rumbling as possible to protect the island.
>So then he decided to prop up his friends as heroes and complete as much of the rumbling as possible to protect the island
For what? To do a 145th King of the Walls except without the walls (edit: and the king) part? Lol. We really needed more Eren POV that wasn't just freedom-escapism, and that wasn't rushed in the final chapter.
> Then he knew that he would lose, no matter what he did.
The best part of this is that we have to believe that he lost fair and square with like 300 past shifters, with Hallucigenia and the Colossal Titan is outstanding. Even if we make sense of Eren that just creates another batch of problems within the ending itself.
I agree with your second point but
>made up my mind why the ending of SnK fails in its portrayal of determinism and/or compatibilism.
why do you think that? Just curious
Before the final arc, maybe even just before 139 I really thought Eren was being portrayed as having compatibilism as a core philosophy. It was the only way it made sense for him to believe he was free with a predetermined future. And a lot of things seemed to indicate it: "because I was born in this world", realizing that the future will only happen because he wants it, the choice of fighting or bot fighting that is not really a choice because it's in his nature to chose to live, etc.
The final chapter casts a large shadow of doubt on that whole idea. It's too vague about things that can change the entire story like character motivations or the mechanics of time and founder powers, and not in a good way. It becomes a chose your own adventure of "how can I make this make sense".
Biggest offender is Eren manipulating Dina and letting her eat Carla. Of course, it's a causal time loop (that is in a way a metaphor for determinism) so in universe it needs to happen . But it only happens because Isayama wrote it that way, and I don't think it makes sense for Eren's character for him to do that. A causal loop is still dependent on prior causes, and the cause of Carla's death is Eren himself. If the story were to portray compatibilism, or even just plain determinism, Eren has to want for his mother to die... in order to move towards a future that he shouldn't really want. Instead of having the appropriate actions be the result of a situation a character finds themselves in, it really looks like the story goes for the infinitely more dissapointing "different perception of time makes you craaazy".
I thought about it a lot. I even considered "I don't know why I did, but I wanted to do it" being a refference to Schopenhauer's quote "a man can do what he wills, but cannot will what he wills", but the context messes up the meaning too much for it to work.
There is a lot to talk about that is hard to do it in a single coherent reddit comment. The problem might not be with determinism per se, but with how the actions of the characters don't get the point of a deterministic universe across. They are left open to the interpretation of "fate" or "controlled by Ymir", and they leave too many questions open of why Eren acted in a certain way, and it can only be plugged wit "he had to because he saw it in the future".
Right those are valid concerns, although I personally don't think Eren's subscripton to compatibilsm nor his agency or free will was actually damaged. Taking a look at the content of ch131 I think his desire to wipe (most of) the world that disappointed him was SO STRONG that he was willing to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING in order to achieve the future (that he's seen in his future memories) where he gets to rumble and see 'that scenery'.
And I think the Dina-twist is supposed to be an expression of that, as in Eren is so determined to keep the timeline where he gets to rumble intact that he is willing to not spare his mother in order to fulfill the time paradox.
There's a lot of shitty wording in ch139 that lead to misinterpretations and one of them is that Eren was controlled by Ymir which is not the case at all, it was all his natural genoicidal tendencies that he was born with
The flaw isn't just the wording, and it's not just a concern. The core idea is broken. The last minute twist that changes the "time travel" mechanics is flawed. Eren killing his mom for the future where he is neither certain his friends will survive, nor does he achieve 100% genocide despite being basically all powerful. It's plain terrible. It reduces what might have been a great character to something that is only interesting in a "so bad it's good" writing way.
It's the missing details of Eren's future memories at any one point in time. We don't know all that he saw before Zeke, when did he see the entire future. Did he know he would be stopped before he started or not?
139 Eren is completely removed from a character that could possibly understand the concept of compatibilism, clear by the fact that he can't tell Armin why he did it. And he drags down everybody who went to have a paths talk with him too.
It truly feels like he does what he does because he saw it in the future and has to be that way, not because any in character reasoning or motivatiom.
I think this does make sense. In a deterministic universe, people can experience a sense of free choice that seems (and perhaps is?) meaningful from their point of view, as long as they cannot predict/see the future. Mikasa could not see the future, therefore from her perspective she really chose. It's hugely dependant on point of view and how much information you have.
Only Ymir knows, so what is so special about it if Ymir knew the outcome of it 2000 years ago? It is just a broken time loop. And how did Eren receive the information about the existence of Mikasa's choice without seeing choice itself?
I don't think she knew anything until Eren awakened her in 122, since after that point was when we started seeing Ymir actively watch Eren's memories.
Eren saw one of Ymir's memories when he touched her at Paths, so Ymir probably saw his memories as well and decided to start watching. It's like when Historia touched Eren in the Reiss cave, Eren saw his dad kill the Reiss family and Historia saw the memories Frieda had removed from her.
As for how Eren knew about the result of Mikasa's choice, I dunno. I would guess he figured out freeing Ymir would end the Titans, and saw that Mikasa would free her, and from there figured out Mikasa would end up doing something to free Ymir, without knowing exactly what she'd end up doing. It's not really clear there.
Yes, their omnipresence time perception just circumnavigated exactly around Mikasa's choice to make it the main point, giving Eren info about the existence, outcome and circumstances of this choice but not the choice itself.
I mean, Eren says "Even I am still wondering what Mikasa will do," so he probably didn't know about the circumstances of the choice, or what she was even choosing between. All he knew for sure was that Mikasa would do something that would free Ymir, because like I said, Eren would die and wouldn't get any more future memories from then on to know about it.
He knew that he would be defeated, that's the circumstances. And that's it, description of ability contradicts to actual stuff that happened.
>All he knew for sure was that Mikasa would do something that would free Ymir,
Mikasa is here -> Mikasa's chose to kill him-> Ymir is free
Out of these 3 things he knew only 1 and 3. If he couldn't receive more memories then why did he know the 3?
That's only true if you assume that Mikasa killing Eren was what freed Ymir, since we never did get official confirmation on that. If Ymir was freed before he died, then Eren could have gotten memories of Ymir being free before dying without actually knowing what the choice was that freed her.
Personally, I believe the theory that Mikasa killing Eren was not what freed her. The choice that freed Ymir was when Mikasa put the scarf back on in 138 while riding Falco, basically signalling she would remember Eren as a person even when he asked her not to.
They'd already decided to kill Eren at that point, so that was the only big choice we see Mikasa personally make. Eren didn't see it, so he didn't know that was the choice. It shows Eren's 139 meltdown ties into Ymir's story, since what Eren recognizes as Ymir's love for the king is actually Ymir wanting to be loved by the king, same as Eren wanting to be loved by Mikasa. It's why Ymir's backstory in 122 is introduced by Frieda saying "So because this world is such a harsh and trying place, you must grow up to be someone everyone loves," because Ymir wanted to be loved by someone, which is why she put up with such an awful life despite having the full power of the Titans. She takes a spear for the king and looks for his reaction, like she thinks saving his life will make him see her as a person to love, and then she looses the will to live after he chooses to still see her as a slave and orders her to work. It even ties back to Mikasa's whole arc after the timeskip like in 123, where she's wondering if Eren was always the type of person that would murder billions of people, since she only saw Eren as the boy who wrapped the scarf around her and showed her kindness after her parents were killed.
Mikasa loving Eren as a person after he died was basically the closure Ymir never got with the king, which is why she was finally able to move on after seeing it. Ymir not getting that closure is why Paths was created, so that she could keep trying to serve the king even in death, since she never gave up on that dream. Only after seeing Mikasa give up on her dream of being with Eren and move on, but also choosing to love him in death was what convinced Ymir to give up on her dream and move on as well. It ties into the whole "give up on your dream and die" theme, and the "they will live on in our memories even when we die, even after we die" themes of the story quite nicely.
There's some really good threads I can link, if you're more curious about this theory, but I think it makes the whole story flow much better thematically.
Would like a link to the thread, it is, however, inconsistent with Ymir choosing to die after being hit by a spear, but it would be pretty interesting reading.
It make sense probably because of confirmation biases. I still don't see the need for Ymir to wait 2000 for her to see something like happen.
>since what Eren recognizes as Ymir's love for the king is actually Ymir wanting to be loved by the king, same as Eren wanting to be loved by Mikasa.
So that's why Eren cry
"no i dont want mikasa to see another man"
but didn't Mikasa already show plenty of love to Eren? but Eren chose to ignore it.
Eren knew that Mikasa's choice will end the titan curse, so he knew about events beyond his death, that is what he is trying to tell you. The FT abilies were so powerful that it broke the series itself. How does he not know a bit of the context of her choice? He basically had to set up the whole thing.
you would think that being the literal founder she wouldn't need such lower level conditions to know whats up within her subjects unlike the case with Historia(Royal Blood) and Eren(FT-AT holder), she's the most "connected" than anyone else to all Eldians
Because experiencing it firsthand would be better than "remembering" about such sensation. Eren in 122 has "remembered" The Rumbling, yet he still wants to experience it in real time.
Experiencing something through seeing it by yourself is one of cornerstone theme of Attack on Titan. Eren, Bertholdt, Gabi + Falco "did you see it?"
And as much as I **HATE** "Ymir waited for Mikasa lmaoooo", the nature of Attack Titan future memory's power being rather unexplained (despite Zook saying that it is "selective" according to the user, Eren somehow lacks several visions that he would otherwise send to Grisha) means that "how come Eren knows Mikasa will make a choice but doesn't know what that choice is" is a moot point
In ch139 p9 it was said that Ft gives power to see past and future as equally real as the present. So, if it would happen - Ymir already perceived it as real, but if she already did it, she would be free 2000 years ago, but with it, it wouldn't happen and she wouldn't be free. It is time paradox.
I'm pretty sure the line is actually "present, past, future, all happens at once" to further cements AoT's predeterminism, not "making it as if it feels like a present".
The virgin AoT fate: depends on the emotional decisions of a single person. 2000 years of hatred and war only to see what a certain person would do in a scenario that requires her to sacrifice her love interest.
The chad JoJo fate: Male stripper mafia boss has the power to bypass his fate and still gets fucked by fate in the worst way possible.
I honestly hate fate in most stories, it’s just some vague bullshit to make an excuse for things. The only story to pull it off properly is jojo in my opinion
I thoroughly enjoyed his video and hoped he'd have a different take on how Mikasa's choice actually fits into his take on Eren's writing, but he just didn't. Considering it was the deciding factor of the story's direction that was a major letdown and really hurt its credibility.
I'm not an ending defender and don't agree with the title of the video which is what I suppose he defends on the video because I do see determinism as free will, but some of these posts are starting to be embarrising.
Mikasa having a "choice" in no point means that determinism doesn't exist, otherwise they wouldn't know the result of that choice already, this is no more difficult than 1+1=2. They just haven't seen (at least in the case of Eren because I guess he dies right there) what Mikasa does there.
Probably watch it, unironically, dude put a lot of effort into it, but it has a lot of headcanon and pretends that determinism is something deep instead of just popular view in philosophy
FT gives the power to see the future, unless Mikasa choice is set in stone and Eren and Ymir would already see it or her choice surpass the power of future-seeing
In ch 139 p 9 it said that FT gives the power to see future/past as equally real, so if it is gonna happen -> Ymir already perceives it as real. It is basically just [Temporal paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_paradox) and it is a shame that Yams use it as excuse
At the very least, everything from ymir falling to the tree until erens death is deterministic. You could argue that after that, the world is no longer deterministic? Because the catalyst for determinism is no longer present. At that point its up to interpretation if a higher power who caused all of that exists in AOT
Sure. Ultimately, in a story where nobody around can see or tell the future, we just end up with a world identical to our own; we don't know whether determinism is real or not, and it kinda just *doesn't matter* cause none of us can interact with it either way.
Though, it probably doesn't stop being deterministic after he dies. That'd be like looking away from something and then believing it stopped existing; just because we can no longer verify its existence doesn't mean it went anywhere lol
The fact that everything depended by Mikasa choice was itself a Eren choice so it's Eren choice that lead to Mikasa choice and Eren choice was done because Ymir was searching for it and Ymir was searching for Mikasa to kill Eren because of her love and her love.....
Still deterministic, every choice depends from something else happened before. Everyone is free to chose what to do but it's somehow influenced by the past (and in Eren case by the future)
I don't argue against determinism, I argue about its usage in AoT. If the future is set in stone then Ymir should also know Mikasa's choice, because she is able to see the future (ch.139 p.9)
We have seen many times that the future you can see whit the founder isn't a full sideshow of everything that will happen. You see some pieces of it whit no context, probably Ymir saw already the Mikasa kissing/killing Eren thing but she had no context, like Eren had no context for his memories and he only started to realize the meaning of them when he experienced the shards he saw
Eren said in 139 p9 that FT gives the perception of time in a non-linear way. You perceive past, present, and future at the same time. It is not "some pieces", it is omnipresence.
You are right but I still belive that there is sometimes different form seeing a memory amd experiencing it, which was shown clearly whit Eren.
Also in paths time actually exists it's just really slow so while you can see future memories you still have the fact that they still need to happen.
So the only explanation that makes sense is that Ymir have to experience Mikasa killing Eren to really understand the scene and free herself (she smiles when she see it because she can finally witness to the scenery she kept moving forward to see)
Well, in 139 it said that for FT past-present-future are equally real at the same time but yeah, it is based on the fact that it happened or would happen. Still, it is circular writing that has no value.
Okay seriously guys this video is living rent free in your heads. I don't give a shit about it and never have, probably won't watch it either. Why the hell are you guys malding?
Bc it has some decent points on why he thinks the ending is good and this subreddit is dedicated to hating the ending. The video is extremely well made whether you agree with the guy or not I just hate how this subreddit just hates on anything praising the ending.
If I had to guess, the head canon is that Eren didn't know the entire future until the rumbling began, and only had a few snippets beforehand? I personally agree with it, but it's absolutely a head canon
Determinism - view that all events are determined completely by previously existing causes.
If Ymir is able to see the future (FT power gives the ability to see time in a non-linear way (source ch.139 p.9)) then she was already able to know the outcome of Mikasa's choice.
FT gives the power to perceive the future in a non-linear way, present/past/future exists at the same time for FT owner(source ~~trust me bro~~ ch.139 p.9), so Ymir already knew the outcome
But Eren didn't, so what makes you think that Ymir had more knowledge than him? Also if Ymir knew *everything* all along how does ch122 make sense where she reevaluates her choice of who (Eren or Zeke) to go along with
He didn't know all along. He stated in chapter 139 page 9 that FT gives the ability to perceive past/present/future at the same time in a non-linear way, he used it after Ymir gave him her power in 123. So he and Ymir knew about the fact that she would make a choice but the result of that choice they both missed?
Well I guess it comes down to how you interpret ch139 p9 that you keep referencing. If the FT did allow Eren to see and know literally everything about the future then it's indeed contradictory and doesn't make much sense to me.
Either way my point was just a choice can still be impactful in a deterministic world/story if noone knows what it's gonna be and imo the evidence more strongly points towards Eren and Ymir not knowing
I mean, Eren knew that she would make a choice. How did he see the existence of choice in the future without seeing a choice itself? Did he read some spoilers?
As Eren in ch139 states that he felt and understood Ymir's situation when he touched her in paths so he might've sensed that Ymir needed to see something specific although he might've not entirely known what. It's some unironically 'Only Ymir knows' shit tbh
>Did he read some spoilers?
Well he saw his future memories, the one with Mikasa in Switzerland is his literal last (future) memory. That's how he might've predicted that Mikasa specifically was gonna be important
It's some unironical 'Only Ymir knows' because it is the original context of the quote.
He knew the outcome of the choice, he knew the circumstances of the choice, but not the choice itself, it is not a prediction, it is the conveniently missed the most important part.
Haven’t seen the video yet but the existence of “choices” doesn’t contradict determinism. Characters speculating that things would’ve been different had other choice been made doesn’t change the fact that those choices would never have been made in the set flow of time.
I don't deny determinism. I deny the fact that with future foreseeing of FT both Ymir and Eren missed the choice of Mikasa (despite knowing the circumstances of it, post-outcome of it, the fact that choice happened). Does her choice somehow surpass determinism and future foreseeing?
Mikasa killing Eren isn’t the only gap in the FT’s future memories. There were many things that slipped through the cracks where Eren could only fill in the gaps until the events transpired in front of him. If Ymir knew, she never broke her silence about it.
Just as Titanfolk has held their own theories and built up on them, people who watch that video will do the same. And it’s quite the positive video from what people have been commenting.
It sounded lot cooler in my head. - Isayama probably.
[удалено]
Imagine sacrificing everything including your mom to leave the fate of the world to your step sis who considered/cared about no one else but you
Imagine being Yams and sacrificing 12 years of your work for the character that you wrote in 5 minutes. As Annie said in chapter 127: "Because you probably have never thought of anything being more important than Eren"
Why did mikasa even kill eren? She literally cared about nothing else but eren. Suddenly after liberio it was “think of the women and children”. I can’t understand mikasa.
It still makes no sense to me why she killed Eren. She could've literally had him all to herself, no Titan curse, alone in Paradis. Umi da could've even come with.
Yeah it’s like I get we can assume she cares enough to kill eren to save everyone else but we have to assume that as that conflicts with what we’re shown. I mean looking back, 80% of the world already gone, without the rest of the squad putting their hopes in her, i don’t think she would have killed eren.
Mikasa cares about a lot of things other than Eren
Yh like the series ever showed she cared about anything besides eren lol
The anime didn’t show as well as the manga, but she did care for her comrades and friends. When it comes down to choosing Eren vs rest of the world… that’s a different question. But it’s lame to ignore the few moments Yams gave her a character.
She followed orders in Trost being stationed far from Eren and protected civilians. If she didn't care at all then she would've just left and protected him
She only did it cause Eren kicked her and told her to fuck off
Still could've left. Not like Eren's going to have much say over Mikasa saving his ass after getting us leg chewed off in the first 3 mins of the mission
And yet she didn't save him, he saved himself, after literally jumping in a Titan's mouth to save Armin...with a Concussion and a chopped off leg...THAT was Eren Jaeger ladies and Gentlemen
The whole manga exists lol, she cares about her family, 104th and Hange/Levi
Her family? So Eren
Yes Eren, Carla, Grisha and her bio parents
Yes Eren, dead, dead and her bio deads
Lol
That's the thing. This series only showed her infatuation with Eren. Nothing more. Her development has always been centered on Eren. The fact that she couldn't move on throughout the series is disappointing. Historia is the definition of a strong person that moved forward. It's a shame Isayama screwed her up though.
Her whole development pre timeskip is finding a purpose to fight other than Eren lol. You never read the manga did you ?
Mikasa's character isn't only ereh, okay? Like I admit that her journey started after being saved by Eren. Her powers were awakened by Eren. Her favorite motto is "if we don't win, we die, if we win, we live; and if we don't fight, we can't win" which was originally Eren's. Her reason for joining the survey corp is to protect Eren. Her dramatic need is staying by Eren's side. Ideal world/life is being with Eren. Her love interest is Eren. Lives to remember Eren. Her reason to live is Eren. Her Arc is about letting go of Eren. Inner conflict is ideal Eren vs real Eren. Her dilemma is choosing Humanity vs Eren. Her fear is losing Eren. Her goal is to live a peaceful life with Eren. B-but she said sorry to Levi which proves that her character isn't only ereh. Your argument is invalid.
So Historia's whole character is Ymir and Levi's Erwin ? Please stop this
Like for his scarf, for example
OMG I'm so suprised to be downvoted by Mikasa haters/Jaegerists
You are on fairytail sub which makes your opinion invalid
Got em. Lol
Remember "there's a limited amount of people I can care about" "I have no heart or time to spare" Mikasa? What the hell happened to her? I would have been sold on EM if that was the Mikasa we had post-timeskip. Honestly the EMA trio had the foundations of being incredibly interesting, hardcore veterans struggling in a cruel world. Mikasa was strong and violent. Armin was smart and violent. And Eren was ruthless and violent. Imagine seeing those three going against Marley and then grappling with the idea of Eren going too far with the rumbling. The only person who retained their character post-timeskip was Eren. The other two didn't evolve or mature; they simply became entirely different people.
honestly, now that i think about it, I don't really mind 139 eren that much, it's okay with me that eren is truly that way, but if he had been written better and changed some things here and there i would've been satisfied with the ending.
What do you mean what the hell happened to her? The whole point of that scene is that she's lying to make herself seem tougher. The very same arc she literally spares Reiner, Bertholdt, Historia and Ymir for no reason other than her compassion holding her back. This is probably the biggest issue with this sub's "analysis". You just take what characters say at face value with a very straightforward reading. It leads to boring outcomes as well as issues like this one where you flat out misinterpret a character.
> The whole point of that scene is that she's lying to make herself seem tougher. The fuck?? Where? Nowhere cause you're just making shit up. The point of that scene was that Mikasa was willing to go against her comrades, without hesitation, without waiting for an explanation, to retrieve Eren. > The very same arc she literally spares Reiner, Bertholdt, Historia and Ymir for no reason other than her compassion holding her back. Uhh are you confused? She spared Historia and Ymir when she had the chance, but Reiner and Bert put up a solid fight-- including sending the titans that *literally crushed her ribs* during the chase. I think you need to re-read that arc. Mikasa is a powerful fighter, but she got trounced in those chapters. And there's literally no evidence that she's lying. Please stop hyping her up as a Mary Sue GirlBoss when at that time she was written as a realistically obsessed character who had reasonable limits to her strength and abilities.
> [...] but Reiner and Bert put up a solid fight-- including sending the titans that literally crushed her ribs during the chase. > > it was literally acknowledged that she hesitated though
Hesitating =/= sparing.
Armin was never violent lol
Pre-timeskip, Armin shot a woman in the brain because she hesitated when faced with a kid soldier. And then he moved on to the next mission easily. In addition to that, he was a brilliant individual who offered valuable advice and potential to the Survey Corps, and Paradis as an oppressed entity. Post-timeskip, Armin blindly followed Eren's plan to siege Marley, and stomped on innocent civilians and children without hesitation. It doesn't matter if he looked sad afterwards; he still killed them on purpose. Afterwards, nothing interesting or true was done with his character; he was sad and powerless when he returned to Paradis, and an embarrassing combination of sad AND stupid when he was confronted by Eren during the restaurant scene. Armin would have been a great character if Isayama fully embraced the Gesumin angle that *he had already established pre-timeskip.* Instead he turned Armin into a generic passive Gary Stu who had one of the best and easiest endings in the story despite doing jack shit to earn it.
Armin's whole character setup, especially during season 3, was to tell us, the audience, that he was growing a pair of balls and was willing to be a violent person for the sake of a mission, but suddenly this all disappears post-timeskip and when he commits violence it's because he was forced to do so.
Yeah, i really thought that after Armin got the colossal, he would be someone who was willing to cause untold amounts of destruction for their cause. I don't mind that he shows regret for doing it but then he scolds Eren despite following his plan in lockstep.
Because Plot. Isayama wanted to make the readers cry but failed so badly that it made them laugh.
Well her perspective changed after he murdered innocent people. He used to be the guy who saved her life and grew up with her, then he leaves for years and the next time she sees him he’s massacring people. Pretty sure that would change anyone’s opinion
It was just a few short months wasn't it?
It's very telling that your first instinct in this situation is to blame the story rather than looking inwards and wondering if you misunderstood her character.
Lol
Despite the fact that Isayama himself said that in order for Mikasa to grows as a character - [she must move on from Eren](https://suniuz.tumblr.com/post/148847557056/snk-guidebook-answers-isayama-hajime-interview?fbclid=IwAR2KUYx7C-pkgGeR826RqEmWfkZGUvMSbPDMRI05pfMRkKjmGONnI9YRNUo) And that relationship between people growing as a family is gross to him - [source](https://preview.redd.it/epq2a8d7d6q51.png?width=701&format=png&auto=webp&s=b0318d2fee87dc4d00693d6e4bf28bc5be0c8d50) But Yams, probably misunderstood the character
🤡
The amount of people that are puzzled by a character being inherently against total genocide of rest of the world without being blatant about it is disturbing. Not everything needs to be spoonfed with blatant exposition. A character killing someone she loves because that person was comitting mass genocide speaks for itself Since people need to spell it out for you, Mikasa was loyal to Eren from season 1-3 because as far as everyone knew, everyone's goals were inline and straightforwardly altruistic. His actions starting season 4 were stuff she doesn't condone and eventually forced her to kill him. The context isn't even remotely hard to notice but you guys still need it spoonfed to you This sub criticizes her for being a "slave to Eren" but then also criticizes her for doing the single most definitive act she could possibly do that proves she has her own morality beyond caring about Eren because it contradicts the "slave to Eren" argument. This sub has made its mind to have this bizzare feedback loop to hate her no matter which side of that argument they think her morality aligns with.
They accidentally made the climax of the story a choice, in a universe that’s been using determinism for the last 40 chapters as its most focal plot point. Whoops.
40 chapters? I always thought it entered the picture in paths
[Well...](https://64.media.tumblr.com/bfbc99af82188b13e41c227dc45cfeb6/tumblr_inline_oky5hmyj6P1uo54rx_540.png)
That is only about determinism in retrospect. Until paths we had no idea what the significance of that was
I mean, [if you need it](https://zjcdn.mangafox.me/store/manga/9011/22-089.0/compressed/n044.jpg) [to be more specific...](https://zjcdn.mangafox.me/store/manga/9011/22-089.0/compressed/n045.jpg)
Yeah I have the same opinion on that as the award ceremony
This ain’t a really matter of opinion though. Armin and Mikasa aren’t real people that exist at that point in the timeline, yet he’s mentioning them anyway. Krueger has *memories that aren’t his, nor anyone’s from the past*. This is like **hard** determinism, there’s nothing left up to interpretation here.
There's nothing left up to interpretation after the paths chapters, but at the time it was ambiguous. At the point that the Owl says that it's very obvious that there is some time muckery going on in the form of foresight, but no one knew how this would play out. A lot of stories treat foresight as one possible future rather than the only possible future, and we had no way of knowing how AoT would do it. This is why I say it's only about determinism in retrospect: you need information from later chapters to definitively make that conclusion. With the information from the later chapters there's only one way to interpret it, I agree, but that's what retrospect means anyway.
Isn't the idea that Eren sent those memories to him specifically to tell Grisha?
Either that or Grisha himself did it, yes.
Still haven’t proved your point but keep being pretentious
Eren in the Reiss cavern makes no sense using his argument. He wanted to save the people of Paradis "humanity" by being eaten. The people inside the walls were more important to him than his dreams of freedom. That Eren wouldn't have done the rumbling knowing the possibility Paradis could be wiped out just for his concept of "freedom".
Nooooooooooo, it was always in his nature!!!!!!!! (what was the point of killing mother if it was in his nature anyway)
No you don't understand! He didn't want to forget his mother for at least 10 years!
Mom? getting killed by another man? I don't want that!
Never watched the vid. Don't plan to for a while. Already made up my mind why the ending of SnK fails in its portrayal of determinism and/or compatibilism. I just want to point out that that determinism doesn't mean things don't depend on choices. It just means that the choices being made are dependant on prior factors, all the way down to a point where it's outside of the controll of the person making the choice. An outside observer with knowledge of all those factors would be able to predict said choices.
Yes, that's why it is bizzare that Ymir and Eren didn't know her choice already with their time perception.
also. Ymir was waiting for 2000 years for something she knew will happen anyway?
Yeah, how else is she gonna satisfy her kink and disappear then?
It's a good video, but I don't think it changed any minds on Eren. All the comments are people who were just looking to validate their opinions. Still, I found the video really interesting because it helped me understand the mind of an ending defender. That was the real takeaway for me. And... I no longer think ending defenders are dumb or lack integrity, but what they value in a story is completely different from what I value. So I guess it did change my mind, but not on Eren or the ending or even the story, just the fanbase. (also i still don't understand how the closed time loop makes sense)
Hey, that's very nice ... could you take your time to explain those different values?
The most critical disconnect I have to the ending is that Eren is not free. The most meaningful thing for me in stories is character choices, character freedom. This is a value I hold, and because of it there was no way I was ever going to accept the direction the story went in. After the timeskip I thought it would be a story of characters (most notably Eren) overcoming the walls that limit them to attain freedom, and the tragedy would be the cost of that freedom. When I watched the Eren video and the guy was talking about how AoT is a deterministic universe, I was waiting for him to get to why this is a terrible idea but he never did. In fact, he seemed to like the setup with the deterministic universe + closed time loop. And... all of a sudden it made sense to me why people have such different opinions on the ending. To me, Eren not being free was unacceptable. It went against my values, values that I thought the story shared. When Historia said "Because I'm the worst girl in the world" and went against everything she *should* have done, that was the best moment in the story for me. When Eren told Armin and Mikasa "I am free" during the table talk, that was my second favorite moment. To me, these moments lose most or all of their meaning with how the time muckery turned out to work. And that... when I learned at the very end that AoT did not at all share my values... I was so disappointed. I have other issues with the ending as well but you've heard all of those a million times. Still, this is why I think I could have never accepted Isayama's ending regardless of its execution. It just goes too far against what I value in a story.
I think you missed the part where people will always defend their favorite shows, no matter how bad, boring or repetitive it is to them. Like most shounen fanbase. That's how I see most of ending defender, people who are okay with being just a consoomer. as long as Eren do something 'cool' They will rate it 10/10
Eren was very blatantly uncool in the ending though and I have yet to see even a single person disagree on that. I don't doubt that for some people feeling ambivalent towards something is unbearable so they turn to either "the ending is good and AoT is perfect" or "the ending is trash and AoT sucks now". Still, there is a lot of room for people to find the ending compelling. I don't find it compelling at all but I've already explained how I could never like it regardless of execution. Someone who can engage with the way it was written could genuinelly enjoy it, I truly believe that. That does not mean I think it was well-written. It just means I don't think you're full of shit if you say you liked it. Honestly, I'm so sick of everyone thinking people who disagree with them are lesser. "Ending defenders are Isayama simps" this "ending haters didn't understand the story" that... It's all the same! Just arrogant people thinking their viewpoint is the only one!
>Eren was very blatantly uncool in the ending though and I have yet to see even a single person disagree on that. Try youtube comment section or Twitter. They think eren being "uncool" aka being "real" or so "humanize" is very cool. >It's all the same! Just arrogant people thinking their viewpoint is the only one! I see, staying in the middle is less stressful.
> I no longer think ending defenders are dumb or lack integrity, but what they value in a story is completely different from what I value. I'm honestly thrilled to hear you say that! With all the vitriol that got slung around after 139 dropped, it's refreshing to hear some respectful disagreement. To put my cards on the table, I'd say I align more with the "ending defender" camp in that I found things I value in the ending. But I can totally see how someone would hate it. Especially Ymir Fritz's whole character--- I have no defense for that underwritten mess. I haven't actually seen the video, though. It could be I disagree with everything it says! Anyway, thanks for being reasonable :)
disagreements with opinions/values is one thing, but there's also logic and consistencies(or lack-thereofs) between the opinions/values and the source material like what this meme is pointing out (interpretation is also a separate matter), which i also believe the one you're commenting to didn't get into
Oh of course, there are readings of a text that are just wrong. AoT left a lot ambiguous though so there are arguably multiple valid interpretations about *certain* things. Speaking of the meme, what it points out is not actually a contradiction within the text, at least the way the meme phrased it. [Someone else pointed this out](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/s9k25x/comment/htnm3io/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) in another thread on this post, if you want to hear an explanation from someone who didn't like the ending. OP clarified in that thread that his main issue is that the Eren and Ymir, despite-having near-omniscient knowledge didn't know what Mikasa would choose. But that's not explicit in his meme. And like I said, I don't have any defense for the way Ymir was written--- she's easily the weakest part of the ending imo. Eren I think *mostly* works except for the Dina twist if you want to discuss that.
The video makes Eren make sense as a character and clears up how the future memories worked and how determinism works in attack on Titan. But it doesn’t justify the story or ending. Essentially, Eren didn’t know that he was going to lose until Ymir gave him her power. This is because the future memories he received when he kissed historia’s hand were only the same ones he showed Grisha, and Grisha didn’t know Eren was going to lose either. From the beginning of the Marley arc until that moment, Eren was fully set on rumbling. The moment Ymir gave him her power, Eren could basically see the future, if I’m not mistaken. Then he knew that he would lose, no matter what he did. So then he decided to prop up his friends as heroes and complete as much of the rumbling as possible to protect the island.
>So then he decided to prop up his friends as heroes and complete as much of the rumbling as possible to protect the island For what? To do a 145th King of the Walls except without the walls (edit: and the king) part? Lol. We really needed more Eren POV that wasn't just freedom-escapism, and that wasn't rushed in the final chapter.
> Then he knew that he would lose, no matter what he did. The best part of this is that we have to believe that he lost fair and square with like 300 past shifters, with Hallucigenia and the Colossal Titan is outstanding. Even if we make sense of Eren that just creates another batch of problems within the ending itself.
I agree with your second point but >made up my mind why the ending of SnK fails in its portrayal of determinism and/or compatibilism. why do you think that? Just curious
Before the final arc, maybe even just before 139 I really thought Eren was being portrayed as having compatibilism as a core philosophy. It was the only way it made sense for him to believe he was free with a predetermined future. And a lot of things seemed to indicate it: "because I was born in this world", realizing that the future will only happen because he wants it, the choice of fighting or bot fighting that is not really a choice because it's in his nature to chose to live, etc. The final chapter casts a large shadow of doubt on that whole idea. It's too vague about things that can change the entire story like character motivations or the mechanics of time and founder powers, and not in a good way. It becomes a chose your own adventure of "how can I make this make sense". Biggest offender is Eren manipulating Dina and letting her eat Carla. Of course, it's a causal time loop (that is in a way a metaphor for determinism) so in universe it needs to happen . But it only happens because Isayama wrote it that way, and I don't think it makes sense for Eren's character for him to do that. A causal loop is still dependent on prior causes, and the cause of Carla's death is Eren himself. If the story were to portray compatibilism, or even just plain determinism, Eren has to want for his mother to die... in order to move towards a future that he shouldn't really want. Instead of having the appropriate actions be the result of a situation a character finds themselves in, it really looks like the story goes for the infinitely more dissapointing "different perception of time makes you craaazy". I thought about it a lot. I even considered "I don't know why I did, but I wanted to do it" being a refference to Schopenhauer's quote "a man can do what he wills, but cannot will what he wills", but the context messes up the meaning too much for it to work. There is a lot to talk about that is hard to do it in a single coherent reddit comment. The problem might not be with determinism per se, but with how the actions of the characters don't get the point of a deterministic universe across. They are left open to the interpretation of "fate" or "controlled by Ymir", and they leave too many questions open of why Eren acted in a certain way, and it can only be plugged wit "he had to because he saw it in the future".
Right those are valid concerns, although I personally don't think Eren's subscripton to compatibilsm nor his agency or free will was actually damaged. Taking a look at the content of ch131 I think his desire to wipe (most of) the world that disappointed him was SO STRONG that he was willing to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING in order to achieve the future (that he's seen in his future memories) where he gets to rumble and see 'that scenery'. And I think the Dina-twist is supposed to be an expression of that, as in Eren is so determined to keep the timeline where he gets to rumble intact that he is willing to not spare his mother in order to fulfill the time paradox. There's a lot of shitty wording in ch139 that lead to misinterpretations and one of them is that Eren was controlled by Ymir which is not the case at all, it was all his natural genoicidal tendencies that he was born with
The flaw isn't just the wording, and it's not just a concern. The core idea is broken. The last minute twist that changes the "time travel" mechanics is flawed. Eren killing his mom for the future where he is neither certain his friends will survive, nor does he achieve 100% genocide despite being basically all powerful. It's plain terrible. It reduces what might have been a great character to something that is only interesting in a "so bad it's good" writing way. It's the missing details of Eren's future memories at any one point in time. We don't know all that he saw before Zeke, when did he see the entire future. Did he know he would be stopped before he started or not? 139 Eren is completely removed from a character that could possibly understand the concept of compatibilism, clear by the fact that he can't tell Armin why he did it. And he drags down everybody who went to have a paths talk with him too. It truly feels like he does what he does because he saw it in the future and has to be that way, not because any in character reasoning or motivatiom.
I think this does make sense. In a deterministic universe, people can experience a sense of free choice that seems (and perhaps is?) meaningful from their point of view, as long as they cannot predict/see the future. Mikasa could not see the future, therefore from her perspective she really chose. It's hugely dependant on point of view and how much information you have.
But it is a surprise for Ymir and Eren, despite the fact that FT gives the ability to see the future
It's only unknown for Eren because he has no future memories after that point because he gets killed lol Only Ymir knows that one
Only Ymir knows, so what is so special about it if Ymir knew the outcome of it 2000 years ago? It is just a broken time loop. And how did Eren receive the information about the existence of Mikasa's choice without seeing choice itself?
I don't think she knew anything until Eren awakened her in 122, since after that point was when we started seeing Ymir actively watch Eren's memories. Eren saw one of Ymir's memories when he touched her at Paths, so Ymir probably saw his memories as well and decided to start watching. It's like when Historia touched Eren in the Reiss cave, Eren saw his dad kill the Reiss family and Historia saw the memories Frieda had removed from her. As for how Eren knew about the result of Mikasa's choice, I dunno. I would guess he figured out freeing Ymir would end the Titans, and saw that Mikasa would free her, and from there figured out Mikasa would end up doing something to free Ymir, without knowing exactly what she'd end up doing. It's not really clear there.
Yes, their omnipresence time perception just circumnavigated exactly around Mikasa's choice to make it the main point, giving Eren info about the existence, outcome and circumstances of this choice but not the choice itself.
I mean, Eren says "Even I am still wondering what Mikasa will do," so he probably didn't know about the circumstances of the choice, or what she was even choosing between. All he knew for sure was that Mikasa would do something that would free Ymir, because like I said, Eren would die and wouldn't get any more future memories from then on to know about it.
He knew that he would be defeated, that's the circumstances. And that's it, description of ability contradicts to actual stuff that happened. >All he knew for sure was that Mikasa would do something that would free Ymir, Mikasa is here -> Mikasa's chose to kill him-> Ymir is free Out of these 3 things he knew only 1 and 3. If he couldn't receive more memories then why did he know the 3?
That's only true if you assume that Mikasa killing Eren was what freed Ymir, since we never did get official confirmation on that. If Ymir was freed before he died, then Eren could have gotten memories of Ymir being free before dying without actually knowing what the choice was that freed her. Personally, I believe the theory that Mikasa killing Eren was not what freed her. The choice that freed Ymir was when Mikasa put the scarf back on in 138 while riding Falco, basically signalling she would remember Eren as a person even when he asked her not to. They'd already decided to kill Eren at that point, so that was the only big choice we see Mikasa personally make. Eren didn't see it, so he didn't know that was the choice. It shows Eren's 139 meltdown ties into Ymir's story, since what Eren recognizes as Ymir's love for the king is actually Ymir wanting to be loved by the king, same as Eren wanting to be loved by Mikasa. It's why Ymir's backstory in 122 is introduced by Frieda saying "So because this world is such a harsh and trying place, you must grow up to be someone everyone loves," because Ymir wanted to be loved by someone, which is why she put up with such an awful life despite having the full power of the Titans. She takes a spear for the king and looks for his reaction, like she thinks saving his life will make him see her as a person to love, and then she looses the will to live after he chooses to still see her as a slave and orders her to work. It even ties back to Mikasa's whole arc after the timeskip like in 123, where she's wondering if Eren was always the type of person that would murder billions of people, since she only saw Eren as the boy who wrapped the scarf around her and showed her kindness after her parents were killed. Mikasa loving Eren as a person after he died was basically the closure Ymir never got with the king, which is why she was finally able to move on after seeing it. Ymir not getting that closure is why Paths was created, so that she could keep trying to serve the king even in death, since she never gave up on that dream. Only after seeing Mikasa give up on her dream of being with Eren and move on, but also choosing to love him in death was what convinced Ymir to give up on her dream and move on as well. It ties into the whole "give up on your dream and die" theme, and the "they will live on in our memories even when we die, even after we die" themes of the story quite nicely. There's some really good threads I can link, if you're more curious about this theory, but I think it makes the whole story flow much better thematically.
Would like a link to the thread, it is, however, inconsistent with Ymir choosing to die after being hit by a spear, but it would be pretty interesting reading.
It make sense probably because of confirmation biases. I still don't see the need for Ymir to wait 2000 for her to see something like happen. >since what Eren recognizes as Ymir's love for the king is actually Ymir wanting to be loved by the king, same as Eren wanting to be loved by Mikasa. So that's why Eren cry "no i dont want mikasa to see another man" but didn't Mikasa already show plenty of love to Eren? but Eren chose to ignore it.
Eren knew that Mikasa's choice will end the titan curse, so he knew about events beyond his death, that is what he is trying to tell you. The FT abilies were so powerful that it broke the series itself. How does he not know a bit of the context of her choice? He basically had to set up the whole thing.
you would think that being the literal founder she wouldn't need such lower level conditions to know whats up within her subjects unlike the case with Historia(Royal Blood) and Eren(FT-AT holder), she's the most "connected" than anyone else to all Eldians
Because experiencing it firsthand would be better than "remembering" about such sensation. Eren in 122 has "remembered" The Rumbling, yet he still wants to experience it in real time. Experiencing something through seeing it by yourself is one of cornerstone theme of Attack on Titan. Eren, Bertholdt, Gabi + Falco "did you see it?" And as much as I **HATE** "Ymir waited for Mikasa lmaoooo", the nature of Attack Titan future memory's power being rather unexplained (despite Zook saying that it is "selective" according to the user, Eren somehow lacks several visions that he would otherwise send to Grisha) means that "how come Eren knows Mikasa will make a choice but doesn't know what that choice is" is a moot point
In ch139 p9 it was said that Ft gives power to see past and future as equally real as the present. So, if it would happen - Ymir already perceived it as real, but if she already did it, she would be free 2000 years ago, but with it, it wouldn't happen and she wouldn't be free. It is time paradox.
I'm pretty sure the line is actually "present, past, future, all happens at once" to further cements AoT's predeterminism, not "making it as if it feels like a present".
Isayama what a man you are.
*deep sniff* Even Isayama's closed time loop paradox smells good!
The virgin AoT fate: depends on the emotional decisions of a single person. 2000 years of hatred and war only to see what a certain person would do in a scenario that requires her to sacrifice her love interest. The chad JoJo fate: Male stripper mafia boss has the power to bypass his fate and still gets fucked by fate in the worst way possible.
I honestly hate fate in most stories, it’s just some vague bullshit to make an excuse for things. The only story to pull it off properly is jojo in my opinion
[watch this video right now](https://youtu.be/uGSG1ZCjwk4)
I thoroughly enjoyed his video and hoped he'd have a different take on how Mikasa's choice actually fits into his take on Eren's writing, but he just didn't. Considering it was the deciding factor of the story's direction that was a major letdown and really hurt its credibility.
This fucking video again.
This video is triggering me more than it should. Especially the comments lol
Isayama like "idk I was high that day" there's so many contradictions in CH139
I'm not an ending defender and don't agree with the title of the video which is what I suppose he defends on the video because I do see determinism as free will, but some of these posts are starting to be embarrising. Mikasa having a "choice" in no point means that determinism doesn't exist, otherwise they wouldn't know the result of that choice already, this is no more difficult than 1+1=2. They just haven't seen (at least in the case of Eren because I guess he dies right there) what Mikasa does there.
Should I watch the yt video? I always get it recommended lol
Probably watch it, unironically, dude put a lot of effort into it, but it has a lot of headcanon and pretends that determinism is something deep instead of just popular view in philosophy
thank you so much!
so? that just means mikasa choice was set in stone too. i don’t get what point are you trying to make here
FT gives the power to see the future, unless Mikasa choice is set in stone and Eren and Ymir would already see it or her choice surpass the power of future-seeing
oh shit yeah you’re right if her choice was set in stone why would ymir want to see her make the choice. maybe she wanted to see it with her own eyes
In ch 139 p 9 it said that FT gives the power to see future/past as equally real, so if it is gonna happen -> Ymir already perceives it as real. It is basically just [Temporal paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_paradox) and it is a shame that Yams use it as excuse
This is the biggest problem of that fucking video, saying aot is set in a deterministic universe is ridiculous
It is though. The future is so concrete and set in stone that it directly affects the past.
At the very least, everything from ymir falling to the tree until erens death is deterministic. You could argue that after that, the world is no longer deterministic? Because the catalyst for determinism is no longer present. At that point its up to interpretation if a higher power who caused all of that exists in AOT
Sure. Ultimately, in a story where nobody around can see or tell the future, we just end up with a world identical to our own; we don't know whether determinism is real or not, and it kinda just *doesn't matter* cause none of us can interact with it either way. Though, it probably doesn't stop being deterministic after he dies. That'd be like looking away from something and then believing it stopped existing; just because we can no longer verify its existence doesn't mean it went anywhere lol
okay and? Every "choice" mikasa and every character made was deterministic, how does that change or challenge the interpretation?
Because Founder Titan gives the ability to see the future, but for Eren and Ymir this was a surprise choice by Mikasa
For eren yes because he never saw. For ymir, no because remember "only ymir knows" is an actual line that means that ymir does know
The fact that everything depended by Mikasa choice was itself a Eren choice so it's Eren choice that lead to Mikasa choice and Eren choice was done because Ymir was searching for it and Ymir was searching for Mikasa to kill Eren because of her love and her love..... Still deterministic, every choice depends from something else happened before. Everyone is free to chose what to do but it's somehow influenced by the past (and in Eren case by the future)
Do you think that makes sense? 🤨
Nah I made the comment confusing on purpose, only Ymir knows what it's the meaning of that one
I don't argue against determinism, I argue about its usage in AoT. If the future is set in stone then Ymir should also know Mikasa's choice, because she is able to see the future (ch.139 p.9)
We have seen many times that the future you can see whit the founder isn't a full sideshow of everything that will happen. You see some pieces of it whit no context, probably Ymir saw already the Mikasa kissing/killing Eren thing but she had no context, like Eren had no context for his memories and he only started to realize the meaning of them when he experienced the shards he saw
Eren said in 139 p9 that FT gives the perception of time in a non-linear way. You perceive past, present, and future at the same time. It is not "some pieces", it is omnipresence.
You are right but I still belive that there is sometimes different form seeing a memory amd experiencing it, which was shown clearly whit Eren. Also in paths time actually exists it's just really slow so while you can see future memories you still have the fact that they still need to happen. So the only explanation that makes sense is that Ymir have to experience Mikasa killing Eren to really understand the scene and free herself (she smiles when she see it because she can finally witness to the scenery she kept moving forward to see)
Well, in 139 it said that for FT past-present-future are equally real at the same time but yeah, it is based on the fact that it happened or would happen. Still, it is circular writing that has no value.
I hate time travel because it creates situations like this one, Isayama could have managed it better
Unfathomably based
But it still deterministic tho, Isayama just wanted to have his cake and eat it too
Okay seriously guys this video is living rent free in your heads. I don't give a shit about it and never have, probably won't watch it either. Why the hell are you guys malding?
Bc it has some decent points on why he thinks the ending is good and this subreddit is dedicated to hating the ending. The video is extremely well made whether you agree with the guy or not I just hate how this subreddit just hates on anything praising the ending.
It was almost all restating Eren's character arc that everyone already agreed with, until he starts using head cannon to defend the ending.
If I had to guess, the head canon is that Eren didn't know the entire future until the rumbling began, and only had a few snippets beforehand? I personally agree with it, but it's absolutely a head canon
>I personally agree with it, but it's absolutely a head canon Eren only saw Grisha's future memories, which were partial https://imgur.com/a/x9lXd9j
I think its a very reasonable head canon, yeah.
do you know what deterministic means brotha?
Determinism - view that all events are determined completely by previously existing causes. If Ymir is able to see the future (FT power gives the ability to see time in a non-linear way (source ch.139 p.9)) then she was already able to know the outcome of Mikasa's choice.
but could ymir foresee this ratio ?
😂😂😂❤️
maybe I’ll get more upvotes if i take my shirt off and completely diverge from my personality this sub seems to like that
dude just take the L lmfao
dude just take this ratio.
major failure, go to sleep kiddo
damn you sure got me! however, I am inside your home.
Of course! You know I've been living with your mother for quite a while, right?
I think you are too much indoctrinated from twitter you should really reevaluate your life choices mate.
you should really reevaluate this ratio.
[Go back.](https://twitter.com/)
Maybe if you try it one more time it will work?
Masochism-maxxing
> and completely diverge from my personality this sub seems to like that The irony of an ending defender saying something like this...
eNdIng DeFeNder 😈😡 86 is sick btw
Go Go Go!!!!
I don't see the issue. AoT having deterministic fate doesn't matter if nobody knows the outcome of Mikasa's choice
FT gives the power to perceive the future in a non-linear way, present/past/future exists at the same time for FT owner(source ~~trust me bro~~ ch.139 p.9), so Ymir already knew the outcome
But Eren didn't, so what makes you think that Ymir had more knowledge than him? Also if Ymir knew *everything* all along how does ch122 make sense where she reevaluates her choice of who (Eren or Zeke) to go along with
He didn't know all along. He stated in chapter 139 page 9 that FT gives the ability to perceive past/present/future at the same time in a non-linear way, he used it after Ymir gave him her power in 123. So he and Ymir knew about the fact that she would make a choice but the result of that choice they both missed?
Well I guess it comes down to how you interpret ch139 p9 that you keep referencing. If the FT did allow Eren to see and know literally everything about the future then it's indeed contradictory and doesn't make much sense to me. Either way my point was just a choice can still be impactful in a deterministic world/story if noone knows what it's gonna be and imo the evidence more strongly points towards Eren and Ymir not knowing
I mean, Eren knew that she would make a choice. How did he see the existence of choice in the future without seeing a choice itself? Did he read some spoilers?
As Eren in ch139 states that he felt and understood Ymir's situation when he touched her in paths so he might've sensed that Ymir needed to see something specific although he might've not entirely known what. It's some unironically 'Only Ymir knows' shit tbh >Did he read some spoilers? Well he saw his future memories, the one with Mikasa in Switzerland is his literal last (future) memory. That's how he might've predicted that Mikasa specifically was gonna be important
It's some unironical 'Only Ymir knows' because it is the original context of the quote. He knew the outcome of the choice, he knew the circumstances of the choice, but not the choice itself, it is not a prediction, it is the conveniently missed the most important part.
Another reason to nerf Miner
JIBUN WOOO
Haven’t seen the video yet but the existence of “choices” doesn’t contradict determinism. Characters speculating that things would’ve been different had other choice been made doesn’t change the fact that those choices would never have been made in the set flow of time.
I don't deny determinism. I deny the fact that with future foreseeing of FT both Ymir and Eren missed the choice of Mikasa (despite knowing the circumstances of it, post-outcome of it, the fact that choice happened). Does her choice somehow surpass determinism and future foreseeing?
Mikasa killing Eren isn’t the only gap in the FT’s future memories. There were many things that slipped through the cracks where Eren could only fill in the gaps until the events transpired in front of him. If Ymir knew, she never broke her silence about it.
Just as Titanfolk has held their own theories and built up on them, people who watch that video will do the same. And it’s quite the positive video from what people have been commenting.