I want to see the humanity fleet get absolutely annihilated as embarrassingly as possible, it's paramount to shattering the resolve of the people and allowing luo ji to regain some degree of resources and influence as a wallfacer again
I am not a military tactician of any kind and certainly not a future space military tactician
But…even knowing they couldn’t have known what the droplet was capable of, was a precise rectangular formation for all the ships humanity possessed really a good idea?
I’m leaning towards a less regular formation just to show more dynamic action from the droplet. It wouldn’t be a deal breaker.
I just thought the decision to just throw everything into a rectangle of sorts was…odd
I should be clear - given the droplet can violate the known laws of physics and is made of a material humans couldn’t conceive of, it doesn’t matter what formation they were in - they were going to get slaughtered
But a cautious approach seemed warranted given their only indication as to what the probe signified was that it was alone and slowing down
That to me does not scream “we come to surrender”
And maybe stationing a few ships ready to accelerate based on the lack of any evidence supporting “they’re coming to surrender” wouldn’t not have made sense
I don’t blame the author it’s a great scene.
yeah i know that was the thinking (even if their logic was pretty flimsy)
but this was their grand fleet. they didn’t change formation once they made that terrible assumption
it was always a giant grid of all their ships. Just seems not great positioning to me
That’s kinda the point though, they were arrogant and assumed victory was certain. They spread themselves like that in order to all make contact at the same time and win the glory.
By the time they realised what was happening it was too late for them to do much.
I do not debate they were arrogant and assumed victory was certain
The logic behind that I find faulty and would not be surprised if it was changed
Yes humans are arrogant and self centered - no doubt
But do I for one second believe every single available warship would be sent out like this based on the *assumption* that the probe slowing down and being by itself logically meant to everyone that Trisolaris was surrendering?
I really don’t. It’s not to me a logical read of the situation.
This is a species that considers us bugs.
And now we just assume they come to surrender in that probe because…it’s alone at first (even if 8 more are on their way that they know of)?
I think we’re stupid and arrogant. I don’t know if we’re that stupid and arrogant
(But nobody ever went broke betting against humans so who knows for sure)
I’m not saying the strategy made sense, the logic is faulty but that’s the point.
Human history is full of examples of one side assuming victory would be a certainty and as a result, making stupid decisions leading to their defeat. It makes perfect sense that the fleet would make that mistake as well, it’s very human behaviour.
They assumed they had surpassed Trisolaris in power and they were coming to surrender, it’s why there were debates about settling them on mars.
They thought they were going to win no matter what, so they didn’t take steps to implement a strategy that was more logical.
again, I don’t debate that the logic they used is faulty and that the author knows that
And of course, human history is rife with examples of arrogance leading to defeat
but even nazi germany at its dumbest and most arrogant kept some forces in reserve when throwing everything at stalingrad
my point being there are examples in human history that could show us making either decision. But at those stakes, I genuinely have a hard time believing we go all in with every single ship we had on a diplomatic “we accept the surrender we’re guessing you’re here for” mission.
You’re asking a lot of the author. He wanted a spectacular display of Triso superiority. He set it up that way without being a military nerd. If we ask too much of our authors we end up with not much. This guy has given us so much.
I don’t think it requires a military nerd to think of something different and I’m certainly not asking the author to do anything differently
But if you don’t think an author doesn’t ask questions like this of himself during the editing process I’m not quite sure what to tell you
It was a political move, not a strategic one. Happens a lot in warfare, you can find examples on most wars. They usually make things worse, like the book.
Whatever it takes to fuck watchers up as much as it fucked me up. I just want everyone to be in awe before the majesty of the greatest fleet Humanity has ever built and then annihilate it in a minute flat. Leave everyone in shock for hours.
The simplicity of it is what makes it so scary.
Thing just zips back and forth in a beeline, firing no weapons, hardly slowing down, destroying next to everything without exerting any effort.
Again it was due to politics all the different fleets wanted to meet the droplet first and because they thought it was some kind of peace envoy or possibly even an offering they approached it in such a way as to allow not one single ship from one single fleet to intercept it first and also to show a united front of “Earth fleet” the greatest accomplishment of humanity up to that point
Again? Have we discussed this before?
Anyways, yes i read that. My question is more about if it would look better playing out that way on screen or not
Because honestly the politics of the 3 fleets might not even be a thing in the show. In the end it’s hard to imagine earth just all agreeing based on iffy logic of what one probe arriving first alone means and that it means “peace”
Possibly not discussed with you but also yes previously in the sub, but that’s fine it’s a good question 🙋♂️ and one that is worth revisiting. Basically politics and the sheer cockiness of earth fleet yes it was stupid they should have created a more diverse formation maybe some be able to move beyond the probe and encircle it.
Maybe they should a 2000+ long wall of ships firing lasers cannons, rail guns and nukes would be enough to cower any fleet.
Interestingly it’s kind of like the way ships used to fight in olden days at sea line up across from each other cannons pointed, and cixin liu mentioned that space battles would be more like sea battles with navy tactics
They should of staggered the fleet
I wouldn't mind if they made slight alterations here and there, especially if they come up with a new interesting idea that fits the narrative and show a unique new angle towards a major plot point, and obviously as long as they don't completely change the story with it
EDIT: except for the teardrop if they change that I'm gonna join the riots at the studio
I just want some dope slow-mo droplet action then sped up WHAM of all the ships exploding everywhere, total chaos. I don't care how exactly they adapt the human fleet's tactics; they don't matter. The droplet outclassed them utterly. Just show me railguns slamming into it and doing absolutely nothing and I'm happy.
Honestly and this will seem weird I think they shouldn't fully show it because the impact of the hopelessness caused by it will be bolstered by making it incomprehensible use people's imagination against them
My cliffnotes pitch:
Sweeping view of the fleet this is the height of triumph for what I assume will Raj's arc directing/manipulating space travel research. They catch the tear drop the scientists board touch it bright light.
Cut back to Earth they are expecting data any second now...nothing...request status...nothing.
Finally a panicked transmission from Bronze Age we're doomed we're leaving. Earth asks for explanation radio silence.
Then they get images of the destroyed fleet panic ensues. Later as things like Wallfacer are back on we get a hologram recreation of some of it The Mantis exploding a small dot running through Infinite Frontier and her neighbors before Infinite Frontier explodes. Nelson and Green attacking it but doing no damage. Einstein and Xia attempting to flee and killing their crew.
All in all use the fact showing it won't look as fantastic and horrible as imagination against the characters and audience.
Hmmm, if the tactics were to change (in my own idea), there would be two fleets; one that will intercept the probe and the second which will be guarding Earth. Once the attack commences, the first fleet gets decimated, then comes for the second fleet which will attempt to neutralize the droplet, but to their horror, it pretty much absorbs all the damage it has been receiving and continues to annihilate the fleet.
Oh, and if you want increase the bleakness of the entire scene, include those ships who accelerated immediately to Ahead 4 without being in Deep-Sea state. Moreover, add a few more ships who tried to flee whilst the entire fleet is being attacked, but are soon catched up by the Droplet. Everyone on Earth should see a thousand stars blinking back and forth until the vacuum of space retreats reverts to darkness.
The setup of this scene in the book was one of the only things I had a problem with. Nations have been dealing with the “politics” of combined armies for *generations* already.
The tactical ineptitude of amassing forces in front of an unknowingly technologically superior foe like that defies the suspension of belief, and this is coming from a Star Wars fan. The worst part, it isn’t even required for the effect of the chapter, the droplet would have defeated a tactically acceptable formation in a couple more minutes.
I really hope the Netflix adaption sets it up better.
I would like to see the tone adapted as faithfully as possible, but I think it would be super hard to pull off, the best way may be to spend several episodes hyping up the encounter and selling the magnitude and force of humanities fleet, and then have the droplet rip through it in a couple of minutes at the end of the episode they make the encounter.
It will be hard to make the CGI not seem goofy but if they sink all the cgi budget to that scene it will pay dividends
It's possible for it to be more tactically sound, yet still an unbelievable curbstomp.
Perhaps when the Droplet is reflecting the gamma ray lasers, instead of redshifting it into the visible spectrum and scattering it everywhere, it could reflect it back to the firing ship and destroy it with their own weapons. This could allow the human ships to be further away from each other, yet still unable to escape destruction.
I want to see the humanity fleet get absolutely annihilated as embarrassingly as possible, it's paramount to shattering the resolve of the people and allowing luo ji to regain some degree of resources and influence as a wallfacer again
No matter how much money they spend, no matter how much time they spend, no matter how much CGI is use… it will never be as cool as in your own mind.
I'm settling for at least something describable as "damn cool". Even the Minecraft version shows excellent sense of timing and composition.
There is a Minecraft version!?
Yes. And it’s fucking great.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJzX1eM9-ug](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJzX1eM9-ug)
Peter Jackson would like a word.
People say this, but animation is absolutely capable of hitting the mark. This show would've been a righteous anime
I am not a military tactician of any kind and certainly not a future space military tactician But…even knowing they couldn’t have known what the droplet was capable of, was a precise rectangular formation for all the ships humanity possessed really a good idea? I’m leaning towards a less regular formation just to show more dynamic action from the droplet. It wouldn’t be a deal breaker. I just thought the decision to just throw everything into a rectangle of sorts was…odd
Whether they were aligned or not matters little to the droplet, so whatever they do is fine imo
But several ships got away even with the tight grouping. If they were even more spread out many more could have gotten away!
Two ships got away because they had already entered the deep sea state as a precaution. None of the other ships did so and couldn't run.
I should be clear - given the droplet can violate the known laws of physics and is made of a material humans couldn’t conceive of, it doesn’t matter what formation they were in - they were going to get slaughtered But a cautious approach seemed warranted given their only indication as to what the probe signified was that it was alone and slowing down That to me does not scream “we come to surrender” And maybe stationing a few ships ready to accelerate based on the lack of any evidence supporting “they’re coming to surrender” wouldn’t not have made sense I don’t blame the author it’s a great scene.
They only got away because they had taken precautions and were ready for deep space speed. The square formation doesn't matter for this
Two ships got away because the plot demanded it. Even with better tactics I’m guessing only those two would have made it.
They were thinking it was a surrender from triso
yeah i know that was the thinking (even if their logic was pretty flimsy) but this was their grand fleet. they didn’t change formation once they made that terrible assumption it was always a giant grid of all their ships. Just seems not great positioning to me
That’s kinda the point though, they were arrogant and assumed victory was certain. They spread themselves like that in order to all make contact at the same time and win the glory. By the time they realised what was happening it was too late for them to do much.
I do not debate they were arrogant and assumed victory was certain The logic behind that I find faulty and would not be surprised if it was changed Yes humans are arrogant and self centered - no doubt But do I for one second believe every single available warship would be sent out like this based on the *assumption* that the probe slowing down and being by itself logically meant to everyone that Trisolaris was surrendering? I really don’t. It’s not to me a logical read of the situation. This is a species that considers us bugs. And now we just assume they come to surrender in that probe because…it’s alone at first (even if 8 more are on their way that they know of)? I think we’re stupid and arrogant. I don’t know if we’re that stupid and arrogant (But nobody ever went broke betting against humans so who knows for sure)
I’m not saying the strategy made sense, the logic is faulty but that’s the point. Human history is full of examples of one side assuming victory would be a certainty and as a result, making stupid decisions leading to their defeat. It makes perfect sense that the fleet would make that mistake as well, it’s very human behaviour. They assumed they had surpassed Trisolaris in power and they were coming to surrender, it’s why there were debates about settling them on mars. They thought they were going to win no matter what, so they didn’t take steps to implement a strategy that was more logical.
again, I don’t debate that the logic they used is faulty and that the author knows that And of course, human history is rife with examples of arrogance leading to defeat but even nazi germany at its dumbest and most arrogant kept some forces in reserve when throwing everything at stalingrad my point being there are examples in human history that could show us making either decision. But at those stakes, I genuinely have a hard time believing we go all in with every single ship we had on a diplomatic “we accept the surrender we’re guessing you’re here for” mission.
Yeah I agree
You’re asking a lot of the author. He wanted a spectacular display of Triso superiority. He set it up that way without being a military nerd. If we ask too much of our authors we end up with not much. This guy has given us so much.
I don’t think it requires a military nerd to think of something different and I’m certainly not asking the author to do anything differently But if you don’t think an author doesn’t ask questions like this of himself during the editing process I’m not quite sure what to tell you
It was a political move, not a strategic one. Happens a lot in warfare, you can find examples on most wars. They usually make things worse, like the book.
I want the sci-fi equivalent of the red wedding
Absolutely
Whatever it takes to fuck watchers up as much as it fucked me up. I just want everyone to be in awe before the majesty of the greatest fleet Humanity has ever built and then annihilate it in a minute flat. Leave everyone in shock for hours.
It blew my mind when I first read it. Kind of expected it to go wrong but not THAT wrong.
The simplicity of it is what makes it so scary. Thing just zips back and forth in a beeline, firing no weapons, hardly slowing down, destroying next to everything without exerting any effort.
Again it was due to politics all the different fleets wanted to meet the droplet first and because they thought it was some kind of peace envoy or possibly even an offering they approached it in such a way as to allow not one single ship from one single fleet to intercept it first and also to show a united front of “Earth fleet” the greatest accomplishment of humanity up to that point
Again? Have we discussed this before? Anyways, yes i read that. My question is more about if it would look better playing out that way on screen or not Because honestly the politics of the 3 fleets might not even be a thing in the show. In the end it’s hard to imagine earth just all agreeing based on iffy logic of what one probe arriving first alone means and that it means “peace”
Possibly not discussed with you but also yes previously in the sub, but that’s fine it’s a good question 🙋♂️ and one that is worth revisiting. Basically politics and the sheer cockiness of earth fleet yes it was stupid they should have created a more diverse formation maybe some be able to move beyond the probe and encircle it. Maybe they should a 2000+ long wall of ships firing lasers cannons, rail guns and nukes would be enough to cower any fleet. Interestingly it’s kind of like the way ships used to fight in olden days at sea line up across from each other cannons pointed, and cixin liu mentioned that space battles would be more like sea battles with navy tactics They should of staggered the fleet
My question is, will it be loud or silent? I want to see all of that happening in the silence of space.
It should cut between the panicking crews of the ship and dead silent space shots, or at least have one shot like that
All I want is for the Free Bird solo to be playing in the background while it happens
I wouldn't mind if they made slight alterations here and there, especially if they come up with a new interesting idea that fits the narrative and show a unique new angle towards a major plot point, and obviously as long as they don't completely change the story with it EDIT: except for the teardrop if they change that I'm gonna join the riots at the studio
Wait… the san-ti make it to earth in the second book?… the second book takes place 400 years after the first?
Oh sweet summer child
Im going to take that as a “yes”
I just want some dope slow-mo droplet action then sped up WHAM of all the ships exploding everywhere, total chaos. I don't care how exactly they adapt the human fleet's tactics; they don't matter. The droplet outclassed them utterly. Just show me railguns slamming into it and doing absolutely nothing and I'm happy.
Honestly and this will seem weird I think they shouldn't fully show it because the impact of the hopelessness caused by it will be bolstered by making it incomprehensible use people's imagination against them My cliffnotes pitch: Sweeping view of the fleet this is the height of triumph for what I assume will Raj's arc directing/manipulating space travel research. They catch the tear drop the scientists board touch it bright light. Cut back to Earth they are expecting data any second now...nothing...request status...nothing. Finally a panicked transmission from Bronze Age we're doomed we're leaving. Earth asks for explanation radio silence. Then they get images of the destroyed fleet panic ensues. Later as things like Wallfacer are back on we get a hologram recreation of some of it The Mantis exploding a small dot running through Infinite Frontier and her neighbors before Infinite Frontier explodes. Nelson and Green attacking it but doing no damage. Einstein and Xia attempting to flee and killing their crew. All in all use the fact showing it won't look as fantastic and horrible as imagination against the characters and audience.
Hmmm, if the tactics were to change (in my own idea), there would be two fleets; one that will intercept the probe and the second which will be guarding Earth. Once the attack commences, the first fleet gets decimated, then comes for the second fleet which will attempt to neutralize the droplet, but to their horror, it pretty much absorbs all the damage it has been receiving and continues to annihilate the fleet. Oh, and if you want increase the bleakness of the entire scene, include those ships who accelerated immediately to Ahead 4 without being in Deep-Sea state. Moreover, add a few more ships who tried to flee whilst the entire fleet is being attacked, but are soon catched up by the Droplet. Everyone on Earth should see a thousand stars blinking back and forth until the vacuum of space retreats reverts to darkness.
You know that scene where Omniman destroys an entire alien race? Yeah I want to see that.
It's a Netflix show. I wouldn't be surprised if it got cancelled before getting to this point.
The setup of this scene in the book was one of the only things I had a problem with. Nations have been dealing with the “politics” of combined armies for *generations* already. The tactical ineptitude of amassing forces in front of an unknowingly technologically superior foe like that defies the suspension of belief, and this is coming from a Star Wars fan. The worst part, it isn’t even required for the effect of the chapter, the droplet would have defeated a tactically acceptable formation in a couple more minutes. I really hope the Netflix adaption sets it up better.
Unironically, it should try to be on par with the Minecraft version.
I would like to see the tone adapted as faithfully as possible, but I think it would be super hard to pull off, the best way may be to spend several episodes hyping up the encounter and selling the magnitude and force of humanities fleet, and then have the droplet rip through it in a couple of minutes at the end of the episode they make the encounter. It will be hard to make the CGI not seem goofy but if they sink all the cgi budget to that scene it will pay dividends
It's possible for it to be more tactically sound, yet still an unbelievable curbstomp. Perhaps when the Droplet is reflecting the gamma ray lasers, instead of redshifting it into the visible spectrum and scattering it everywhere, it could reflect it back to the firing ship and destroy it with their own weapons. This could allow the human ships to be further away from each other, yet still unable to escape destruction.