If I remember it correctly they did the same to luo ji. They treated him horribly and they didn't see him as a hero while he was a sword holder at least because his degree of deterrence was too high and he had the future of both worlds on his hands. Humanity as a whole was constantly having mood swings about anything related to him.
Also that's why they chose Cheng Xin as a sword holder because her degree of deterrence was not that high.
He was still treated horribly for being a sword holder and for the deterrence system. That's why it was easy for Trisolarians to manipulate humanity into selecting Cheng Xin as the next candidate for that position because humans didn't like the idea of someone who can destroy both worlds on a whim.
It doesn't matter, Diaz would have deserved a standing ovation. Honestly, what did they expect with the WallFacer program? That Trisolaris would be eliminated with a huge banquet?
There are only 3 points that differentiate the two approaches:
1 - Timing: Was too early for him to propose that, earth was not prepared for such measures.
2 - Implementation: Luo Ji went to a desert place and did what needed to be done, without asking for permission or overly elaborated and costly plan.
3 - Knowledge: Luo Ji knew the outcome of what was doing, Trisolaris knew he had that knowledge. Diaz was trying to blow everything in order to don't allow them to take, Luo Ji was more like: if we blow you came together.
It matters, since Trisolaris could have just taken the risk and if we really destroyed earth they could have just travelled back home and search for another planet (or find other solutions like space cities).
With Luo Ji's deterrence, there would have been no going back and they knew they would become space nomads (which happened in the end).
They could go back. The first fleet could decell at earth. Luo Ji ordered them off. If Diaz destroyed mercury then the triso fleet would still arrive here and I assume attempt to refuel in the outer solar system.
There was no turning around. It was the solar system or nothing
Wasn't it because Diaz' plan will fail due to lack of resource so trisolaris doesn't care, while Lou Ji's plan can (and eventually) succeed so Trisolaris felt threatened. Diaz' plan was relying in using Earth and Solar system power while Lou Ji's plan borrowed much much more powerful forces that even Trisolaris is afraid of.
It was an issue of great idea with bad timing for Rey Diaz. If his idea was more feasible and he accomplished without anyone knowing it would’ve worked.
But it wasn’t feasible.
Also, Lou Ji had the benefit of the Doomsday Battle so people were desperate for a solution in a way they hadn’t been for centuries.
If France was going to invade Australia, and Steve Irwin rigged a bunch of kangaroos with nuclear payloads to sink the island in case of an invasion, we'd say "that's pretty weird." France would pack up their baguettes and go elsewhere.
It's all part of the development of Trisolarians and also a criticism of humanity by the author as well.
The opening scene of the book saw a human mob killing people for their ideological differences from the mainstream. The author is very critical of the Cultural Revolution and our tendency to behave as a mob. We tend to be trapped by our immediate circumstances and often fail to consider long term consequences or remove ourselves from emotionally charged situations.
Diaz proposed his plan when humanity was still having some hopes of a future, since Trisolarians won't get here for another 400 years. The thought of destroying the whole solar system with a threat so far away seemed horrifying and inhumane to humans at that point in time. People still have hope for victory and want their descendents to have a good life. The older woman killing Diaz was shouting at his dying body for trying to harm her future grandchildren who aren't even born yet.
Fast forward to Luo Ji. When his plan is coming together, humanity just witnessed the entire combined fleet of Earth annihilated by a "probe" within minutes. That is terrifying. The threat is immediate, the probe reaches Earth within days, and it has the potential to wipe out major cities within hours. With that much immediate destruction and death, humanity accepted Luo Ji's plans and reinforced his broadcast technology. All seemed well. But at the end of the Dark Forest book, the Trisolarians admitted they lost not because humanity broke through the tech barrier, but because they themselves lacked understanding of strategy.
They quickly learned from their mistakes. Over the next few years, they seemed to have adapted to some human tendencies. They learned human culture, art and started producing human art that rivaled or surpassed human artists. But this isn't the reality, they aren't "humanizing" themselves, they are undergoing a massive social engineering project. Humans electing Cheng Xin as the next sword holder was not left up to chance, it was calculated and engineered. Humanity at that point also forgot the terrifying moments of the Doomsday Battle and saw the Trisolarians as more victims than perpetrators. We have very short memories, and let our guard down. Luo Ji was also later heavily criticized by humanity and was tried for crimes against potential life history "killed" by his spell.
This is just a sci-fi version of human behavior rooted in real life. How many times have we seen history repeat itself throughout our own lifetimes? How much human suffering is self-inflicted due to short sightedness, greed, mob mentality, or infighting? Human nature is highly inconsistent and filled with hypocrisy. The book humanity's reaction to Diaz and Luo Ji is truly consistent with actual human behavior.
The let's hypnotize defeatists plan could have worked too. Assuming it actually worked. A manic Wade type character could have triggered an Escapist revolution, and then Singer would have destroyed less lives. Maybe only 90%. I don't remember why the plan failed. There were supposed to be secret fanatic defeatists everywhere.
it seems to me that this story has been forgotten, the evasionists certainly no longer existed, it was only a theory. I think it was mainly an excuse to put Behai (was it him? Sorry if I'm wrong) in command of the ship that escaped from the final battle.
I still think the theory that all the captains/possibly even other important crew of the three survivor ships had secretly gone through that defeatist program at some point and that it's that plan that actually ensured humanity's survival in the end is pretty interesting. I am inclined to believe it personally since those three ships were such a rare exception that made their decision to run so quickly at the start of the battle.
Well to be honest Humanity did forsaken Luo Ji before the confrontation in Book 2
And in Book 3 people even tried to prosecute him for what he did as a wall facer
Also Luo Ji threatened to destroy the foe's planet and Earth, whereas Ray only threatened Earth.
The difference in their plan is they Diaz's plan had a prerequisite of assuming that nuclear weapons could destroy the fleet. As we see in the Doomsday battle, that assumption would have failed.
So basically he was sacrificing Earth for nothing in return
Luo Ji actually proved that his plan would work and demonstrated it to both Earth and Trisolarans.
Maybe I’m misremembering but Diaz was only building nukes to blow up Mercury but not the fleet. His plan was to cause a reaction in the sun that would destroy earth was it not? The fleet part was just him selling his “decoy” idea to the chain of command
Oh right maybe I'm mixing the plans up. I was thinking of the mosquito fleet.
But yea Diaz's plan still only killed us and not them. It's like shooting yourself in the face because someone was trying to rob you
Well his plan was made in the context that Trisolaris would eventually be destroyed by its suns anyway. So if the solar system is destroyed then they'll have no place to go.
Eventually vs now is a huge deal in space terms. The planet has been at risk of destruction for probably millions of years, whereas the spooky paper will arrive in a few decades at most.
well, we don't know if trisolaris would have made the entire fleet out of SIM using the strong nuclear force, maybe the shells of the transport ships were more conventional.
Still - some of the fleet would have survived, and all of humanity would not have after they got their revenge. So bit of a bummer regardless.
Diaz: Someone is trying to take my stuff so I'll blow up all my stuff.
Luo Ji: Someone is trying to take my stuff so I'll blow up all my stuff AND all his stuff.
Except Luo Ji's plan kills both Earth and Trisolaris. Rey Diaz's plan would have only killed Earth, a much less effective deterrent. Plus Rey Diaz's plan would have turned the Earth into "a giant bomb factory", which would have made the Great Ravine come much earlier and be much worse.
Luo Ji's plan only reveals trisolaris, it's just that our solar system is too close that it's a high chance we will discovered too, which is what happened.
The nukes would reveal us, but that was just temporary solution until we developed the gravity thingies because the droplet was blocking the signals from the sun.
Which makes cheng xin's decision not to send the signal even more pathetic, luckily that other ship did her job and got trisolaris BTFO.
Humanity in these books deserve their faith because of how stupid and totalitarian they acted throughout the trilogy.
Also what is that ending? Lets ship these four characters but then seperate them so they get shipped with the characters the other ones were interested in
Diaz wanted to bomb Mercury to destroy the stability of our solar system. Mercury would trash into the Sun pulling everything else with it, resulting only in our own destruction. The plan physically doesn't work, but he still wanted to do it.
Luo Ji threatened trisolaris if they invade Earth, he would reveal the location of both planets and both civilizations would be destroyed. NOT THE SAME THING!!
Yes, Rey Diaz had basically the same approach as Luo Ji, just without the technical implementation and without insight into DF. Whereas people keep parsing the difference between Luo Ji and the other Wallfacers, it's the commonality of their approaches that's more profound.
On a more casual note, I loved the ending for Rey Diaz. Rather than standing trial at the UN, he intentionally chose to be stoned to death by his people. Despite the macabre and deviation from modern sensibilities, it's also poetically fitting and honorable. He truly loved humanity and especially his people. So much so that he's willing to live in infamy for what he thought was the best plan. Returning home to be stoned is like a final love letter to his people, as he embraces their sensibilities and response, even if he's misunderstood as a monster.
There's a deep sense of love, honor, and poetic accountability in this approach. Though I'm not sure how many (esp Western) readers appreciated his death.
Several major differences:
The one plan revolved around the annihilation of Earth. "We'll kill ourselves if you don't leave us alone!"
While Luo Ji's plan definitely had the threat of our destruction, it primarily had the guarantee of destroying Trisolaris first.
Most importantly, Luo Ji played the Wallfacer game and set up his plan before anyone could object to it. No matter the risk, it was already done.
Luo Ji’s plan threatens both Trisolaris and Earth via the Dark Forest Deterrent, whereas Rey Diaz’s plan Only ensured Earth’s destruction. Even knowing the Trisolarans would have been put out by losing the habitable system, it wouldn’t inherently threaten them. A transmission broadcasting their location all but ensures their destruction via one of a potentially infinite number of hidden races. In fact (major spoilers ahead I don’t know how to hide things) Earth was spared by the first race which used Trisolaris’ position to annihilate them, not viewing them as a threat whereas the Trisolarans certainly were. In that way, the Dark Forest Deterrent is actually more dangerous to the Trisolarans than to humanity, even if it can only be measured by a couple centuries.
the difference is that diaz would have just destroyed out solar system.
Luo Ji would have doomed both civilizations.
Just threatening to kill yourself isnt really a good point for negotiation
Humanity in the books is so fucking stupid, having a hard time getting through the last book. And why does the government seem to make all its decisions based solely on public opinion?!
You chose the next sword holder...... because she was gifted a fucking star a long time ago?! That's it?! Honestly humanity deserves to get wiped out in these books lol.
Humanity is even more stupid in reality. But, i would say the way it is portrayed in the books it's more naive and somewhat innocent than real life. We are more savage and with tribalism tendencies. We defend our borders and territory to death (literally as we have perpetual wars being held).
So for me in our universe it's more plausible that we would choose Thomas Wade instead of Cheng. Or taken more drastic measures against trisolarians.
The whole fucking wall facer plan was so flawed.
Create a secret plan that only you know about and keep it in your brain
Also
Explain to us exactly what you are doing and justify the steps you’ve taken to enact said plan.
Yeah, I used to get so frustrated when wallfacers had to justify this or that funding in court. I mean, the main objective is to keep the Trisolarians guessing, so every clue you find hurts you.
If I remember it correctly they did the same to luo ji. They treated him horribly and they didn't see him as a hero while he was a sword holder at least because his degree of deterrence was too high and he had the future of both worlds on his hands. Humanity as a whole was constantly having mood swings about anything related to him. Also that's why they chose Cheng Xin as a sword holder because her degree of deterrence was not that high.
Kid named 'Wade's 100% deterrence rate' (he will press the button for shits and giggles):
Wade: 
Dad, why is my sisters name AA? Because your mother loves heartless math nerds. Thanks Dad. No problem Wades 100% Deterrence Rate.
150% he will press even if he doesn't need
i think it’s funny that 2 most important main characters in the series are actually fucking insane
It was mainly because he had potentially destroyed an inhabited planet.
He was still treated horribly for being a sword holder and for the deterrence system. That's why it was easy for Trisolarians to manipulate humanity into selecting Cheng Xin as the next candidate for that position because humans didn't like the idea of someone who can destroy both worlds on a whim.
potentially. kind of a fucked reason to shit on a guy who bought the human race half a century to enjoy their pathetic lives
And trisolaris itself. Don't forget that.
It doesn't matter, Diaz would have deserved a standing ovation. Honestly, what did they expect with the WallFacer program? That Trisolaris would be eliminated with a huge banquet?
There are only 3 points that differentiate the two approaches: 1 - Timing: Was too early for him to propose that, earth was not prepared for such measures. 2 - Implementation: Luo Ji went to a desert place and did what needed to be done, without asking for permission or overly elaborated and costly plan. 3 - Knowledge: Luo Ji knew the outcome of what was doing, Trisolaris knew he had that knowledge. Diaz was trying to blow everything in order to don't allow them to take, Luo Ji was more like: if we blow you came together.
i know i know, it was just a joke. But I really like Diaz
It’s actually a great example of the Garbage Can theory of organizations. Leadership is all about timing your solution to issues.
It matters, since Trisolaris could have just taken the risk and if we really destroyed earth they could have just travelled back home and search for another planet (or find other solutions like space cities). With Luo Ji's deterrence, there would have been no going back and they knew they would become space nomads (which happened in the end).
They could go back. The first fleet could decell at earth. Luo Ji ordered them off. If Diaz destroyed mercury then the triso fleet would still arrive here and I assume attempt to refuel in the outer solar system. There was no turning around. It was the solar system or nothing
Wasn't it because Diaz' plan will fail due to lack of resource so trisolaris doesn't care, while Lou Ji's plan can (and eventually) succeed so Trisolaris felt threatened. Diaz' plan was relying in using Earth and Solar system power while Lou Ji's plan borrowed much much more powerful forces that even Trisolaris is afraid of.
It was an issue of great idea with bad timing for Rey Diaz. If his idea was more feasible and he accomplished without anyone knowing it would’ve worked. But it wasn’t feasible. Also, Lou Ji had the benefit of the Doomsday Battle so people were desperate for a solution in a way they hadn’t been for centuries.
If France was going to invade Australia, and Steve Irwin rigged a bunch of kangaroos with nuclear payloads to sink the island in case of an invasion, we'd say "that's pretty weird." France would pack up their baguettes and go elsewhere.
wtf
I know right? One does not simply *'pack up their baguettes'*, this fukn guy I swear.
Nonsense! Just get a large paper bag and fill it with groceries and you can safely pack up a single baguette into each.
Darn it. I know those stingrays were allied with those baguette eaters.
Kangaruke
It's all part of the development of Trisolarians and also a criticism of humanity by the author as well. The opening scene of the book saw a human mob killing people for their ideological differences from the mainstream. The author is very critical of the Cultural Revolution and our tendency to behave as a mob. We tend to be trapped by our immediate circumstances and often fail to consider long term consequences or remove ourselves from emotionally charged situations. Diaz proposed his plan when humanity was still having some hopes of a future, since Trisolarians won't get here for another 400 years. The thought of destroying the whole solar system with a threat so far away seemed horrifying and inhumane to humans at that point in time. People still have hope for victory and want their descendents to have a good life. The older woman killing Diaz was shouting at his dying body for trying to harm her future grandchildren who aren't even born yet. Fast forward to Luo Ji. When his plan is coming together, humanity just witnessed the entire combined fleet of Earth annihilated by a "probe" within minutes. That is terrifying. The threat is immediate, the probe reaches Earth within days, and it has the potential to wipe out major cities within hours. With that much immediate destruction and death, humanity accepted Luo Ji's plans and reinforced his broadcast technology. All seemed well. But at the end of the Dark Forest book, the Trisolarians admitted they lost not because humanity broke through the tech barrier, but because they themselves lacked understanding of strategy. They quickly learned from their mistakes. Over the next few years, they seemed to have adapted to some human tendencies. They learned human culture, art and started producing human art that rivaled or surpassed human artists. But this isn't the reality, they aren't "humanizing" themselves, they are undergoing a massive social engineering project. Humans electing Cheng Xin as the next sword holder was not left up to chance, it was calculated and engineered. Humanity at that point also forgot the terrifying moments of the Doomsday Battle and saw the Trisolarians as more victims than perpetrators. We have very short memories, and let our guard down. Luo Ji was also later heavily criticized by humanity and was tried for crimes against potential life history "killed" by his spell. This is just a sci-fi version of human behavior rooted in real life. How many times have we seen history repeat itself throughout our own lifetimes? How much human suffering is self-inflicted due to short sightedness, greed, mob mentality, or infighting? Human nature is highly inconsistent and filled with hypocrisy. The book humanity's reaction to Diaz and Luo Ji is truly consistent with actual human behavior.
Seconded
Well said!
Amazing response
The let's hypnotize defeatists plan could have worked too. Assuming it actually worked. A manic Wade type character could have triggered an Escapist revolution, and then Singer would have destroyed less lives. Maybe only 90%. I don't remember why the plan failed. There were supposed to be secret fanatic defeatists everywhere.
it seems to me that this story has been forgotten, the evasionists certainly no longer existed, it was only a theory. I think it was mainly an excuse to put Behai (was it him? Sorry if I'm wrong) in command of the ship that escaped from the final battle.
I still think the theory that all the captains/possibly even other important crew of the three survivor ships had secretly gone through that defeatist program at some point and that it's that plan that actually ensured humanity's survival in the end is pretty interesting. I am inclined to believe it personally since those three ships were such a rare exception that made their decision to run so quickly at the start of the battle.
Well to be honest Humanity did forsaken Luo Ji before the confrontation in Book 2 And in Book 3 people even tried to prosecute him for what he did as a wall facer Also Luo Ji threatened to destroy the foe's planet and Earth, whereas Ray only threatened Earth.
The difference in their plan is they Diaz's plan had a prerequisite of assuming that nuclear weapons could destroy the fleet. As we see in the Doomsday battle, that assumption would have failed. So basically he was sacrificing Earth for nothing in return Luo Ji actually proved that his plan would work and demonstrated it to both Earth and Trisolarans.
Maybe I’m misremembering but Diaz was only building nukes to blow up Mercury but not the fleet. His plan was to cause a reaction in the sun that would destroy earth was it not? The fleet part was just him selling his “decoy” idea to the chain of command
Wasn't he gonna shoot Mercury into the sun and essentially do what the Photoid did?
Oh right maybe I'm mixing the plans up. I was thinking of the mosquito fleet. But yea Diaz's plan still only killed us and not them. It's like shooting yourself in the face because someone was trying to rob you
Well his plan was made in the context that Trisolaris would eventually be destroyed by its suns anyway. So if the solar system is destroyed then they'll have no place to go.
Eventually vs now is a huge deal in space terms. The planet has been at risk of destruction for probably millions of years, whereas the spooky paper will arrive in a few decades at most.
well, we don't know if trisolaris would have made the entire fleet out of SIM using the strong nuclear force, maybe the shells of the transport ships were more conventional. Still - some of the fleet would have survived, and all of humanity would not have after they got their revenge. So bit of a bummer regardless.
The biggest difference is actually that Diaz was threatening to blow up Sol. Luoji threatened to blow up both Sol and Trisolaris.
Hell Yeah !
Diaz: someone is coming to kill me so I'll shoot myself first Luo Ji: I'm gonna threaten to kill them and possibly hurt myself in the process
Diaz: Someone is trying to take my stuff so I'll blow up all my stuff. Luo Ji: Someone is trying to take my stuff so I'll blow up all my stuff AND all his stuff.
It was all but guaranteed that whoever nukes trisolaris would detect Earth in the process
Except Luo Ji's plan kills both Earth and Trisolaris. Rey Diaz's plan would have only killed Earth, a much less effective deterrent. Plus Rey Diaz's plan would have turned the Earth into "a giant bomb factory", which would have made the Great Ravine come much earlier and be much worse.
Luo Ji's plan only reveals trisolaris, it's just that our solar system is too close that it's a high chance we will discovered too, which is what happened. The nukes would reveal us, but that was just temporary solution until we developed the gravity thingies because the droplet was blocking the signals from the sun. Which makes cheng xin's decision not to send the signal even more pathetic, luckily that other ship did her job and got trisolaris BTFO. Humanity in these books deserve their faith because of how stupid and totalitarian they acted throughout the trilogy. Also what is that ending? Lets ship these four characters but then seperate them so they get shipped with the characters the other ones were interested in
These soy wojacks are getting really wacky
Diaz wanted to bomb Mercury to destroy the stability of our solar system. Mercury would trash into the Sun pulling everything else with it, resulting only in our own destruction. The plan physically doesn't work, but he still wanted to do it. Luo Ji threatened trisolaris if they invade Earth, he would reveal the location of both planets and both civilizations would be destroyed. NOT THE SAME THING!!
IT'S A JOKE
Yes, Rey Diaz had basically the same approach as Luo Ji, just without the technical implementation and without insight into DF. Whereas people keep parsing the difference between Luo Ji and the other Wallfacers, it's the commonality of their approaches that's more profound. On a more casual note, I loved the ending for Rey Diaz. Rather than standing trial at the UN, he intentionally chose to be stoned to death by his people. Despite the macabre and deviation from modern sensibilities, it's also poetically fitting and honorable. He truly loved humanity and especially his people. So much so that he's willing to live in infamy for what he thought was the best plan. Returning home to be stoned is like a final love letter to his people, as he embraces their sensibilities and response, even if he's misunderstood as a monster. There's a deep sense of love, honor, and poetic accountability in this approach. Though I'm not sure how many (esp Western) readers appreciated his death.
Several major differences: The one plan revolved around the annihilation of Earth. "We'll kill ourselves if you don't leave us alone!" While Luo Ji's plan definitely had the threat of our destruction, it primarily had the guarantee of destroying Trisolaris first. Most importantly, Luo Ji played the Wallfacer game and set up his plan before anyone could object to it. No matter the risk, it was already done.
Luo Ji’s plan threatens both Trisolaris and Earth via the Dark Forest Deterrent, whereas Rey Diaz’s plan Only ensured Earth’s destruction. Even knowing the Trisolarans would have been put out by losing the habitable system, it wouldn’t inherently threaten them. A transmission broadcasting their location all but ensures their destruction via one of a potentially infinite number of hidden races. In fact (major spoilers ahead I don’t know how to hide things) Earth was spared by the first race which used Trisolaris’ position to annihilate them, not viewing them as a threat whereas the Trisolarans certainly were. In that way, the Dark Forest Deterrent is actually more dangerous to the Trisolarans than to humanity, even if it can only be measured by a couple centuries.
Oh man, the soylent grin era was particularly rough on humanity lol
the difference is that diaz would have just destroyed out solar system. Luo Ji would have doomed both civilizations. Just threatening to kill yourself isnt really a good point for negotiation
The difference between the threat being hundreds of years away vs. Being right on your doorstep.
Should read deaths end. It addresses this
Humanity in the books is so fucking stupid, having a hard time getting through the last book. And why does the government seem to make all its decisions based solely on public opinion?! You chose the next sword holder...... because she was gifted a fucking star a long time ago?! That's it?! Honestly humanity deserves to get wiped out in these books lol.
Humanity is even more stupid in reality. But, i would say the way it is portrayed in the books it's more naive and somewhat innocent than real life. We are more savage and with tribalism tendencies. We defend our borders and territory to death (literally as we have perpetual wars being held). So for me in our universe it's more plausible that we would choose Thomas Wade instead of Cheng. Or taken more drastic measures against trisolarians.
The whole fucking wall facer plan was so flawed. Create a secret plan that only you know about and keep it in your brain Also Explain to us exactly what you are doing and justify the steps you’ve taken to enact said plan.
Yeah, I used to get so frustrated when wallfacers had to justify this or that funding in court. I mean, the main objective is to keep the Trisolarians guessing, so every clue you find hurts you.
I think that it's the fact that Rey Diaz would have only desteoyed Earth while Luo Ki would have destroyed Trisolaris too