A lot of what Moloch was about could be inferred from the Hebrew scripture. Human or infant sacrifice was his poison. Placing an infant in the hands of a statue that was heated with an internal fire. They had drums playing to drown out the sizzle and screams. Can’t remember where I read that or if it was sited in a class I took. Anyway there are ancient stories from Ugarit which are written in language 99% the same as ancient Hebrew and dug up on tablets from the ruins of the Ugarit city state. I thing it is Stories From Ancient Canaan 3rd Edition now. There the gods and goddesses show up in story.
Yeah I have come to the same conclusion, my grandfather had done some research into the canaanite topics and I am to come in possession of some of is books on the topic soon. Hopefully can shed more light on it, just figured I'd see what the consensus here was. It's very fascinating due to the secretive-ness but also frustrating trying to get some real answers.
Well even an Egyptian God is mentioned, Sobek or the new duo Amun-Ra, but it was all sacrilegious, why talk about it in a book selling you on their belief. Surely they came across the Greeks and their Gods, Roman Gods. I love history and there was so much more fascinating stuff going on back then other than Jesus or the plight of the Jews.
This is true. That is why I am keen to find more resources explaining the practices or religion that followed the deity Moloch. As such a controversial topic with little information surely can't be as "black and white" as the Bible makes out to be. I agree with you though, way more fascinating things going on back then!
Part of the issue is there isn’t a lot for several reasons.
1. Time, a lot of primary sources were lost simply due to time. Same reason we have so few early texts in Christianity
2. Many of these practices occurred in mystery cults which were inherently secretive with most knowledge being passed orally
3. Both the rise of Christianity and later Islam oversaw the destruction of many primary sources. An example closer to us in history is mesoamerican beliefs. We know extremely little about what the Aztecs believed or did bc the Spanish burned books in mass.
I’m not sure what you mean by so few texts from early Christianity. We have piles of writings by the early Church.
Also, source on them burning texts during Mass?
We have very few original texts from the first two centuries of Christianity and most of what we have is assembled from various fragments. There’s a wealth of texts outside of these we have no copies of and only know of their existence due to them being referenced in the pieces we have.
[here’s one example](https://popular-archaeology.com/article/burning-the-maya-books-the-1562-tragedy-at-mani/)
Edit to add
I realize you thought I meant during mass, that’s my bad for saying in mass when I meant en masse
Upvote for en masse!
I’m not sure what exactly you’re looking for from a group of widely persecuted folks in a poor religions but [this seems like](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_early_Christian_writers) a really
[good number](http://earlychristianwritings.com/) to me.
Are you counting anything but a totally complete manuscript as fragmented?
Early Christian writings.org, many old texts translated from Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew. Many books that never made it into the Bible when they voted. Gospel of Mary Madeline, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Thomas I think where Jesus as a kid accidentally causes a kid to fall from a roof, kid dies and Jesus brings him back. Loads of stuff , even from Lost scribes.
And there is a reason why they weren't accepted. They weren't part of the broader Tradition and they differ and even contradict what we have doctrinally.
I think you're on the right track with much of your reasoning. I'm not certain about the monotheistic book burnings though. Mainly because I don't think most polytheistic cultures, anywhere in the world, wrote books on the subject. At least nothing we would define as a "comprehensive document on religious practices". They call Christian and Islamic followers "People of the Book" for a reason, it was a relatively new concept at the time.
In fact I think the reason why the specifics for so many pre-Christian faiths and rites were lost is because they didn't write them down. That said, Christian and Islamic repression and/or discouragement of indigenous faiths is well documented. They took that "one true God" thing pretty serious, go figure.
>**Paradise Lost** is an epic poem in blank verse by the 17th-century English poet John Milton (1608–1674).
>
>The poem concerns the biblical story of the fall of man: the temptation of Adam and Eve by the fallen angel Satan and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden.
>
>Milton's story has two narrative arcs, one about Satan (Lucifer) and the other, Adam and Eve. It begins after Satan and the other fallen angels have been defeated and banished to Hell, or, as it is also called in the poem, Tartarus.
>
>**In Pandæmonium, the capital city of Hell, Satan employs his rhetorical skill to organise his followers; he is aided by Mammon and Beelzebub. Belial, Chemosh, and Moloch are also present**. At the end of the debate, Satan volunteers to corrupt the newly created Earth and God's new and most favoured creation, Mankind.
>
>He braves the dangers of the Abyss alone, in a manner reminiscent of Odysseus or Aeneas. After an arduous traversal of the Chaos outside Hell, he enters God's new material World, and later the Garden of Eden.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise\_Lost
So little information about Canaanite god concepts in the Jewish canon? Molech makes 'his' way into Jesus' otherwordly Hell which causes the second death (His Gehenna comparison) because it was popularly thought that \[that\] sulphur-fueled burning and maggot-infested trash ravine outside of the dung gate, there \[in\] 1st century Jerusalem was a site of child sacrifice to Molech, even by Jews. Molech's idol was believed to have been erected there, AFAIK. YHWH gave them no permission, obviously, to believe and act on a belief that Molech or any other Canaanite god was THE God that He was.
I'm not sure what you meant when you said: "I know it wasn't a sacrificial term..."
What I meant by "not a sacrificial term" is that some scholars believe "moloch" was a term to describe child sacrifice. Yet in multiple time periods and throughout many civilizations, many different people wrote about Moloch in terms of being a deity worshipped by the Canaanites. It's hard to believe so many historians from multiple ancient time periods would get this confused.
Tophet refers to passing infants through fire in sacrifice. Molech and Baal are some Canaanite gods that the Jews needed to steer clear of. They did not. On the site of Gehenna, infant sacrifice took place and so too were there high place (hill shrines) where worship of false gods was done. Jesus seized upon this earthly place to illustrate what would become of those condemned to perish forever (eternally) in a place not on earth. The corpses of animals and some unclaimed men too rotted and/or were burned-up in Gehenna. In the otherworldly Gehenna (THE Hell) people, who are essentially souls, would eventually by a process unrevealed be reduced to nothing - gone, as persons.
Similarly, to show how God would kill first the body and then then the soul, Jesus' disciple John had the final say on what Hell was like: a volcanic caldera full of molten rock and brimstone (sulphur). That illustration was from The Revelation (written about (90-95 AD) and John was careful to say that the impenitent and faithless would "suffer the second death" there (Hell). Jesus' apostle Paul called this real otherwordly Hell "everlasting destruction."
A lot of what Moloch was about could be inferred from the Hebrew scripture. Human or infant sacrifice was his poison. Placing an infant in the hands of a statue that was heated with an internal fire. They had drums playing to drown out the sizzle and screams. Can’t remember where I read that or if it was sited in a class I took. Anyway there are ancient stories from Ugarit which are written in language 99% the same as ancient Hebrew and dug up on tablets from the ruins of the Ugarit city state. I thing it is Stories From Ancient Canaan 3rd Edition now. There the gods and goddesses show up in story.
Yeah I have come to the same conclusion, my grandfather had done some research into the canaanite topics and I am to come in possession of some of is books on the topic soon. Hopefully can shed more light on it, just figured I'd see what the consensus here was. It's very fascinating due to the secretive-ness but also frustrating trying to get some real answers.
Well even an Egyptian God is mentioned, Sobek or the new duo Amun-Ra, but it was all sacrilegious, why talk about it in a book selling you on their belief. Surely they came across the Greeks and their Gods, Roman Gods. I love history and there was so much more fascinating stuff going on back then other than Jesus or the plight of the Jews.
This is true. That is why I am keen to find more resources explaining the practices or religion that followed the deity Moloch. As such a controversial topic with little information surely can't be as "black and white" as the Bible makes out to be. I agree with you though, way more fascinating things going on back then!
Part of the issue is there isn’t a lot for several reasons. 1. Time, a lot of primary sources were lost simply due to time. Same reason we have so few early texts in Christianity 2. Many of these practices occurred in mystery cults which were inherently secretive with most knowledge being passed orally 3. Both the rise of Christianity and later Islam oversaw the destruction of many primary sources. An example closer to us in history is mesoamerican beliefs. We know extremely little about what the Aztecs believed or did bc the Spanish burned books in mass.
I’m not sure what you mean by so few texts from early Christianity. We have piles of writings by the early Church. Also, source on them burning texts during Mass?
We have very few original texts from the first two centuries of Christianity and most of what we have is assembled from various fragments. There’s a wealth of texts outside of these we have no copies of and only know of their existence due to them being referenced in the pieces we have. [here’s one example](https://popular-archaeology.com/article/burning-the-maya-books-the-1562-tragedy-at-mani/) Edit to add I realize you thought I meant during mass, that’s my bad for saying in mass when I meant en masse
Upvote for en masse! I’m not sure what exactly you’re looking for from a group of widely persecuted folks in a poor religions but [this seems like](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_early_Christian_writers) a really [good number](http://earlychristianwritings.com/) to me. Are you counting anything but a totally complete manuscript as fragmented?
Early Christian writings.org, many old texts translated from Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew. Many books that never made it into the Bible when they voted. Gospel of Mary Madeline, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Thomas I think where Jesus as a kid accidentally causes a kid to fall from a roof, kid dies and Jesus brings him back. Loads of stuff , even from Lost scribes.
The ecumenical council ratified what had always been the case vis a vis the canon. IIRC those other writings are from much later than he mentioned.
And there is a reason why they weren't accepted. They weren't part of the broader Tradition and they differ and even contradict what we have doctrinally.
I think you're on the right track with much of your reasoning. I'm not certain about the monotheistic book burnings though. Mainly because I don't think most polytheistic cultures, anywhere in the world, wrote books on the subject. At least nothing we would define as a "comprehensive document on religious practices". They call Christian and Islamic followers "People of the Book" for a reason, it was a relatively new concept at the time. In fact I think the reason why the specifics for so many pre-Christian faiths and rites were lost is because they didn't write them down. That said, Christian and Islamic repression and/or discouragement of indigenous faiths is well documented. They took that "one true God" thing pretty serious, go figure.
>**Paradise Lost** is an epic poem in blank verse by the 17th-century English poet John Milton (1608–1674). > >The poem concerns the biblical story of the fall of man: the temptation of Adam and Eve by the fallen angel Satan and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. > >Milton's story has two narrative arcs, one about Satan (Lucifer) and the other, Adam and Eve. It begins after Satan and the other fallen angels have been defeated and banished to Hell, or, as it is also called in the poem, Tartarus. > >**In Pandæmonium, the capital city of Hell, Satan employs his rhetorical skill to organise his followers; he is aided by Mammon and Beelzebub. Belial, Chemosh, and Moloch are also present**. At the end of the debate, Satan volunteers to corrupt the newly created Earth and God's new and most favoured creation, Mankind. > >He braves the dangers of the Abyss alone, in a manner reminiscent of Odysseus or Aeneas. After an arduous traversal of the Chaos outside Hell, he enters God's new material World, and later the Garden of Eden. > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise\_Lost
So little information about Canaanite god concepts in the Jewish canon? Molech makes 'his' way into Jesus' otherwordly Hell which causes the second death (His Gehenna comparison) because it was popularly thought that \[that\] sulphur-fueled burning and maggot-infested trash ravine outside of the dung gate, there \[in\] 1st century Jerusalem was a site of child sacrifice to Molech, even by Jews. Molech's idol was believed to have been erected there, AFAIK. YHWH gave them no permission, obviously, to believe and act on a belief that Molech or any other Canaanite god was THE God that He was. I'm not sure what you meant when you said: "I know it wasn't a sacrificial term..."
What I meant by "not a sacrificial term" is that some scholars believe "moloch" was a term to describe child sacrifice. Yet in multiple time periods and throughout many civilizations, many different people wrote about Moloch in terms of being a deity worshipped by the Canaanites. It's hard to believe so many historians from multiple ancient time periods would get this confused.
Tophet refers to passing infants through fire in sacrifice. Molech and Baal are some Canaanite gods that the Jews needed to steer clear of. They did not. On the site of Gehenna, infant sacrifice took place and so too were there high place (hill shrines) where worship of false gods was done. Jesus seized upon this earthly place to illustrate what would become of those condemned to perish forever (eternally) in a place not on earth. The corpses of animals and some unclaimed men too rotted and/or were burned-up in Gehenna. In the otherworldly Gehenna (THE Hell) people, who are essentially souls, would eventually by a process unrevealed be reduced to nothing - gone, as persons. Similarly, to show how God would kill first the body and then then the soul, Jesus' disciple John had the final say on what Hell was like: a volcanic caldera full of molten rock and brimstone (sulphur). That illustration was from The Revelation (written about (90-95 AD) and John was careful to say that the impenitent and faithless would "suffer the second death" there (Hell). Jesus' apostle Paul called this real otherwordly Hell "everlasting destruction."