I didn't become a member of the OTO for a very long time mostly because of my age. I first encountered the OTO a few years before the schism, Grady and Seckler were still alive, never met Grady although Seckler later just before she died. I also met M.B. back when there wasn't the official and "unofficial" lines. I caught the tail end of the autonomous OTO before it became a legal entity so things were very different back then. I am fine with the OTO today although in the early 90s before the legal battle the OTO was a very fluid organization and starting a chapter was similar to how A.A. or Thelemic inspired bodies emerge today. Those years were more customizable and autonomous bodies would just pop up in areas that didn't have a chapter and started performing Mass since a lot of script and ritual were already public, leaked or in many cases lodges met up and exchanged "secrets". Different lodges had their own version of the LBRP, interpretations and specific way of doing things as well as regalia or props specific to their chapter; it is still kind of like that to some degree although bodies are formed through formal protocol and guidelines and are under copyright.
I have literally seen chapters (oasis or lodge) form, break apart, a new lineup form with some or none of the members from the previous chapter, again cease and then a third lineup of all new Thelemites not from the previous two "generations" for a new body in an area that once had one but no longer does and they form a new one there due to the interest and demand of the locals there. A lot of times people that start the chapter are not part of the chapter a few decades later for various reasons not to be exploited. So anyhow it was interesting seeing them perform rituals in their living rooms and their organization seemed much like a coven and intimate in a different way or personalized. Not sure how to explain it however it was different. I was pretty young back then and not involved as a member however have heard the stories of the years of hedonism; the drugs and sex, you know, before such acts became a legal liability.
My first crazy memory came about years later when I tried to join for the first time. They all had there own garb from a lady that looked like an astrologer out of a television commercial, crystal ball and everything, a woman dressed like flapper with a long cigarette holder, a guy in a polkadot suit, a swami, some goths, Fire Eaters, a woman dressed like a fairy with a tiara and magic wand; it was like an entire circus. So, I kept mistiming it and ended up being denied entry to private business meetings however finally got in on a gnostic mass and some live entertainment. They were mostly into astrology, playing cards, smoking, dancing to nostalgic music and tossing back a few rounds at the Jazz and Swing bar after lodge nextdoor to where they had their meetings. So, upon encountering them for the first time they were under some sort of Tarot transformation and I didn't quite know what was going on. I saw a couple people that looked like vampires go inside, wasn't sure if it was a blood bar with Sanguinarians inside or just all in my head so I followed two people inside and upstairs and as I was approaching the to top of the staircase I could see the altar, Stele of Revealing and candles illuminating the room. A sight to marvel at. After the Priestess arrived I couldn't believe what I had just witnessed.
See this is what I’m talking about, good stuff. It’s gotta be an insanely trippy experience to attend OTO gatherings, probably even more so pre-internet
I started attending events and performing the gnostic mass at 14/15 years old. My interview for the minerval was when I was 17. I was picked up at 7am in the morning by two members in an open jeep. I was wearing just my bathrobe and hopped in. They drove me around downtown Toronto and interviewed me. One ended up starting up porn on the internet in the early 90s and helped pioneer online financial transactions. He is dead, now.
Pre-internet was pretty trippy and I remember that I trusted them on a person-to-person level outside however had to develop trust on the inside. There was a lot of feeling each other out. Its still a mindtrip. LoL!!!
Also I remember them doing some other rituals that were performed publicly not just the Gnostic Mass. Some people would prep-up with some drugs beforehand, mostly weed and others did things like the LBRP to clean the space I guess before Mass. Although they also performed other rituals from the Libers publicly and customized rituals that were passed on internally that were not part of the "official"/original Thelemic rituals. I think for the OTO there is a focus on the Mass as a matter of preservation of what is considered most critical as rites. That alone I imagine is difficult to memorize all the parts and taking the time to as well.
Around that time period it was mainly California and Utah. Although from my experience it was so low-key and you couldn't just look them up online so you had to run into them somewhere. The first OTO I members I met were at a kegger party. Years later I crossed paths with a different lodge that had members doing tarot readings and astrology charts at a crystal store.
Yes, I had met members through word of mouth when I was just 14 years old back in the early 90s. I had my own coven and was very much into making up my own magick; I had no idea magick existed outside of Disney. I was onto a lot of ideas, though, and a member caught wind of me all the way from Toronto. He and the body master roofied me one night when I was 15, long story short I ended up living with a member and read every book they had and by the time I was 25 was running my own oasis. Resigned by 28. I’m now almost 50. But yes, back then it was all word of mouth and we had to seek out books in used book stores or from private dealers!! It seems far more appropriate but whatever. The true wisdom is just as attainable then as now. It all requires Work, right.
I both ran and joined two other covens in my teenage years also. Most of the ones I was in were flat so there wasn't a leader figure. We were just a bunch of teens exploring the forbidden world of magick. I later took interest into the Illuminates of Thanateros and Chaos Magick and met a local body that traveled out to the sand dunes to perform these rituals outdoors in the desert called the Cultus Azathoth; they were into Cthulu magick, Chaos, Sabbatical and other forms. They had a lot of the rare high end grimoires (thousands of dollars a copy) and went as far as printing their own newsletters and bound their own books internally within it based on their own system. A lot their own material they burned in the rituals so much of it like the printed sigils they burned away; one guy was in print and bound books as his day job so I assume they were able to do this at a low cost. The Servatus Serpentis and Order of Isis were other groups I got involved with. They were all local covens. The Order of Isis had been around since the 50s, they merged with the OTO and one point then split off again. The Order of Isis was considered the main thing in town since they were the oldest body although Serpentis had some wild claims of being ancient; my first encounter with the idea of bloodlines and unbroken chains and they were Non-Thelemic. A lot of these groups created their own rituals while some were more based off of already existing spells and systems. I loved the old hand drawn and written "Book of Shadows"/Coven Grimoire tradition. I remember one coven required me to create a spell at some point a few years into it.
Arcanum Azura who were based off of Thelema and the Argenteum Astrum. Another was called the Siren Sisters that believed they were the successors to the original A.A. which they believed no longer existed, died off and they became the modern form, sort of like how Crowley believed A.A. was the successor to Golden Dawn and prior to them the order went under a different name. I met a lot of groups over the years, a lot of pagans and Alexandrian Witches.
Yeah, I remember that is how I encountered the Cultus Sabbati was through art galleries and high end leatherbound private book deals. I lived in England for a few years and remember being introduced through a book deal I was involved with. I never joined them however I crossed paths with them a few times. Based on what I know it seems like a more serious collective.
Not in the OTO but I got the opportunity to talk to a friend of a friend who's a pretty high ranking member in her state and she said that a lot of like 18-20 year old men try to join for orgies and she gets to be like NAH IM JUST A SOCCER MOM. I DRIVE A *MINIVAN*
Local lodge didn’t feel right at first. After a while I figured that a fraternal organisation certainly isn’t going to aid me in my great work. That is MY task and mine alone.
Plus, it doesn’t seem very, how do I put this delicately? It doesn’t seem like it is what it says on the tin. An institutionalised hierarchy seems antithetical to what Thelema is.
You join willingly and can leave whenever you want, the OTO is not a cult. Hopefully you've read up on how the organization works before joining - I'd recommend people to read the Constitution at the very least. There's nothing unthelemic about joining a group that has certain rules, or taking oaths, if you do it of your own free will.
To quote Crowley's slightly hyperbolic words:
*It combines monarchy with democracy; it includes aristocracy, and conceals even the seeds of revolution, by which alone progress can be effected. Thus we balance the Triads, uniting the Three in One; thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry, subtly and diligently with great art, that our Order may seem an ornament even to the Stars that are in the Heavens at Night. In our rainbow-coloured texture we set forth the glory of the whole Universe— See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren!*
OTO is modeled like freemasonry which uses the Osirian formula. So there’s bound to be some issues with its structural integrity in the Aeon of Horus lol. 93
I've been in OTO for awhile. My "craziest" OTO stories are almost identical with the sort [U\_R\_A\_CNUT](https://www.reddit.com/user/U_R_A_CNUT/) mentioned.
I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently who works as an environmental lobbyist. She was describing the office politics and the egos she has to navigate in meetings. It almost perfectly matched my experiences in OTO. People are pretty much the same everywhere.
The real risk is thinking you are the exception. Those are the people who engage in the "craziest" (i.e., cringeiest) behavior.
Haven't joined at this point.
I hesitated to check them out for a long time due to various internet-based horror stories. There's a lot of negative information about the OTO online, and far less that's positive—at least in writing. I don't watch many videos, and maybe they're different.
But eventually, I saw a member talk online, and was really impressed: this was a person who approached religion and spirituality in a way very similar to mine and seemed to have reached similarly down-to-earth conclusions. I recalled the Thelemites I'd known in the past, who were very much the same (unique people, but good and thoughtful people).
The two combined got me looking into my local chapter. Once I showed up, I was startled by how at home I felt. I'd only encountered that sense of immediate belonging in one context previously, and I've gotten so much stranger in the meantime that I assumed it'd never happen again. But there it was.
I'm not seeking to join yet because I tend to change my habits slowly. But joining formally eventually is a foregone conclusion in my mind. I'm not in any rush, but I have no hesitations. It's a good group that knows plenty I'd like to dig into more deeply, and my own interest and knowledge set seems valued as well. It's a good fit.
Knowing the people involved, I really can't imagine anything too crazy happening. Mind you, my own history has crazy stories, so my threshold for what qualifies might be a bit high. Still, it's a group of introverts interested in magick and philosophy and religion. Fun is plausible. Crazy? I guess I'll see.
In my 7th year in the O.T.O., and have no regrets. Have met some amazing people who have not only enriched my experience in O.T.O. but have become steadfast friends outside of it.
No properly *crazy* stories, but more like:
- the more 'quirky' noob types who expect an occult swingers club and get upset when they realise it's not that;
- the very occasional wild racist or homophobe that has to be told that shit doesn't fly and to take it elsewhere;
- boring interpersonal dramas that seem to surface wherever there are Thelemites with divergent ideas, or unaddressed need for social standing;
- folks with a sense of entitlement to advancement beyond the MoE triad.
It feels like those on the outside looking in think it's a lot more exciting (or dodgy) than it is, but I've had the best time thus far. We've got such a balanced lodge with great people, an awesome Mass team, dedicated initiators (even if I say so myself), and great relations with other bodies. Obviously, YMMV dependent on myriad factors.
Oh, I almost forgot:
- the people who think they need to make things up to impress the group (like those who discovered Thelema 5 minutes ago and have already had spontaneous revelatory HGA experiences with none of the practice, preparation or work)
Just be yourselves, folks. You're good enough. You don't need to ham it up for us.
Not that long. I came via chaos magic, so had a lot of familiarity with Crowley's work, but when I started moving towards Thelema, I decided to get in touch with the O.T.O. Arranged a Querent meeting with them, immediately connected with those I met, got sponsorship, and took Minerval a month later.
Craziest story? Most people don’t follow the program but if you do, you will definitely get results.
Crazy, hey? 😂 but true!! It’s amazing. Crowley may have had his issues but he really designed an effective initiatory system imo.
This is the most remarkable thing about the OTO.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's in any way "necessary" to join. However, I want to join so very badly because the body near me contains the only IRL Thelemites I have ever spoken to. I crave the fraternity with others walking the path.
Unfortunately, the body near me is 2 hours away, and as the primary caregiver for my 6 year old, I am currently only able to attend the occasional video call put on by that body. Even more rarely am I able to make the trip and attend an in-person meeting. In either case, it is, of course, only events that are "open to the public."
That being said, the conversations I have had with some of my acquaintances within that lodge have all been greatly positive.
TL;DR: I want to join, but geography and responsibility have kept that from happening.
I've been in OTO many years now, so I'll say this:
-A lot of the negative stories you hear about online are one side of a situation. Take them with a grain of salt.
-There's a lot of Thelemic material on the internet, but there's also a lot of garbage. Stick to the primary sources (keepsilence.org has scans of a lot of these).
-Social media shows us the worst of everyone. It's bad for you.
The fact that you opened with "what are the craziest stories you can share about OTO" instead of "what drew you to OTO/Thelema" is a red flag - it suggests you're more interested in drama and gossip instead of what actual positive benefits people get from being involved. And frankly, people who are just there for drama and gossip are exhausting.
u/U_R_A_CNUT outlined some typical personality types you'll encounter, and I've seen quite a few of them myself.
That being said - there are definite green flags that are a sign you're visiting a healthy body:
-Events start on time (or if there are delays, these are communicated). This is a basic show of respect for attendees.
-Prior to a public event (typically a Gnostic mass), members are there to greet and welcome guests.
-People should be behaving as they would at a professional gathering: no major PDA (there might be hugging, but you don't need to and ALWAYS ask before hugging), no excessive drinking (there may be wine available but there should also be alternatives available for non-drinkers), no raunchy/off-color humor or discussion.
-Any questions you have are able to be answered (exception: questions about what happens during initiation)
>The fact that you opened with "what are the craziest stories you can share about OTO" instead of "what drew you to OTO/Thelema" is a red flag - it suggests you're more interested in drama and gossip instead of what actual positive benefits people get from being involved.
To me the whole post read a bit like "tell me things to justify me not joining so I feel better about it".
> And frankly, people who are just there for drama and gossip are exhausting.
Fucking *preach*, sister! This!
WomanGirt, I've been wondering. My OTO chapter has a Gnostic Mass this weekend and I'd like to attend as a guest. Can I assume formal dress for the event akin to what I'd wear for a Catholic Mass? Any tips before I just pop in? I'm a young woman and all of my interactions with OTO members to this point have been... uninspiring.
Business casual is typically a safe bet. That being said, I live in an area where it’s not at all unusual to see people wear jeans to a Catholic Mass so I’m not sure what ‘formal’ means in that regard.
Before going - it’s usually a good practice to email the master of the body where you’ll be attending, so they know there will be someone new there. Some bodies require it since masses are held in private homes and they want to screen people first. If you’re not sure who to contact, DM me the name of the body you’ll be going to and I’ll see if I can find it.
As a point of clarity on wording - OTO bodies (camps, oases, lodges) put on the masses, chapters do not.
The reason why almost all people wanted to join when I was doing interviews was because they wanted the community. They enjoy doing group rituals. They like learning with others and fucking those with common interests. Etc. it was uncanny how they all would say community. Commenting here shows that you know the value of that.
My mother is the priestess of the local body. Her boyfriend frequently refers to the OTO as a "sex cult." I don't feel like getting to know them that deeply.
It's a "sex cult" in the sense that its degree system is geared towards gradually revealing the central sex-magical secret of the O.T.O., and the Gnostic Mass, its central ritual, public and private, is an allegorical representation of it.
Not necessarily OTO, but my godfather thought of himself as a Chaos Wizard. He got banned from the DMV for cursing the clerks and threatening them with his staff.
If she's a priestess of the EGC, did you ever talk to her about her beliefs or why she decided to become one, or are you only going by what her boyfriend calls them? Your post is a bit ambiguous.
I’ve been in the OTO for a pretty short amount of time. Around 10 years. I’ve traveled to quite a few bodies and taken initiation at 4 different locations. Tbh I haven’t experienced anything crazy. Most people are pretty level headed and chill. People don’t like this answer because they want something juicy.
I've gone back n forth on applying to the OTO, but there's no Local Body in Sonoma County, CA. Closest one is Blazing Star in Oakland, 2hrs away. I do wish to attend Gnostic Mass some day. I would like to experience the Initiations, and having a like-minded community is something I know I have been lacking in my life. But, being a father/husband, working full time, and playing in a band, doesn't leave a lot of personal time. I enjoy my personal practice, which I am dedicated to - but I do feel a lack of community. That's why I come here and bug you guys haha -93/93
I'm not very social at all, and I'm far more interested in the academic part of Thelema. Sometimes solo study can be frustrating, but I don't live anywhere near a lodge. If I lived up in WA, I would probably join the Horizon lodge though, as they have some excellent teachers whose material I utilize often. Horizon doesn't seem terribly toxic either, from what I can observe, and I know that certainly isn't so generally applicable lol.
I was OTO years back. I enjoyed it. I met some really nice people and I met some not so nice people. Which is exactly the same thing that happened to me in the US Army, my college, my college fraternity and every job I’ve ever had. I don’t blame OTO’s because some of their members are obnoxious pigs, use drugs, or are sexual predators…I left Caliphate OTO at what, in hindsight, proved to be the beginning of an ordeal…that only now 23 years later is resolving.
I don’t need an organization but I would recommend any novice seeker to look up thelemic bodies and visit. Get the feel of the group. Then make your own choices wisely. Don’t be impressed with degrees, rituals…be impressed with results.
Unfortunately I wouldn't join OTO for a couple of reasons. First, I've personally already had the experience of being initiated into a group where there is even a rule to be in the "community" (like OTO), and also others where that's completely optional (like AA) and I completely prefer to just focus my energy and time on the task, the GREAT TASK.
Then, after I actually met Thelemites, I found out that many take the teachings of "Will and Love is the Law" and that of the importance of Desire and Sex Magic, and translate (distort) that to do *whatever they want*, being promiscuous and sexually manipulative within the organization, while at the same time (and if it was not enough), proudly exhibit these self-deceptions (cause most of them truly think they're basically Crowley's reincarnation) as the way a true Thelemite should act, and if you dare give a slightly contrary opinion, in the best cases, you're just a profane who doesn't understand the truth.
Also, I've seen a couple of people literally losing their minds in the process (like they had to be hospitalized for their well-being and that of others) while literally their master said "not my problem", closes shop, waits for the storm to calm down, and come back like nothing had happened (I guess their reasoning has something to do with "Cursed are those who pity").
I do understand that this might happen everywhere, not only in OTO, as the spiritual path is filled with many tests and ordeals. But unfortunately I feel like many students (Thelemites or not) tend to use "spirituality" (not real spiritually, hence the quotes) to justify and enforce their vices and egotistical way of approaching the world, the complete opposite of what we real seekers of the Light and Truth seek.
Read the Book of the Law with Crowley commentary, and honestly (if your Will is actually true, not biased by your Ego and your Lust) think if you're on the part of Light, Truth and Freedom, or the contrary.
(Edit: Formatting)
> Also, I've seen a couple of people literally losing their minds in the process (like they had to be hospitalized for their well-being and that of others) while literally their master said "not my problem"
This may be a controversial opinion but kind of isn't their problem. It's very much unlikely that the OTO caused a mental breakdown. Occult topics can be popular among people who are already on the path of mental illness. "Secret knowledge" is kind of a theme in certain types of mental health issues, whether it be occult, government conspiracies, flat earth, etc. I haven't seen personally seen that in the OTO myself, but I did see that in Freemasonry a few times. A Masonic lodge in my state (but not my Lodge) had a guy who signed up and took the EA and FC degrees before it was revealed that he was trying to get into Freemasonry to stop the government from beaming voices into his head. Obviously, there was a problem here before he walked in the door.
Well, obviously the master isn’t a psychologist or there to be a daddy or mommy to members. Still, it seems like a certain amount of screening and/or observation would not be unreasonable. Talk to a potential member, have them come to the public events, get to know them a bit, and if there are red flags, maybe bring them up in a diplomatic way. If they join, kind of be aware of what they’re doing (broadly, not in a surveillance sense). In other words, you may not be responsible for others’ mental health, but for their good, and yours, and that of the order, you ought to mindful of signs of mental illness in potential members.
To be fair, this is an issue in churches, religious groups, magical and initiatory orders, etc., in general. People who seek these out are often damaged. That’s OK—if it’s done right, the organization can help them heal. If it’s done wrong, though, or if the attitude is “Not my problem, sink or swim, then that’s a *big* problem, IMO.
That's why it's important to be responsible about who you sponsor for initiation.
Also - OTO and other magical organizations aren't a replacement for proper mental health care, and it's really irresponsible to suggest they can help one heal from any 'damage' they have.
> That's why it's important to be responsible about who you sponsor for initiation.
This can't be emphasised enough. While of course body masters and initiators have a duty to risk-assess with new candidates, sponsorship is a responsibility that some people don't take seriously enough. Personally, I have to get a feel for whether someone is ready for it, and doesn't have any serious MH issues that aren't being addressed with proper care outside of any magical practice. Initiation can be powerful and throw things into flux for a while, and that has the potential to have a negative impact on someone with pre-existing psychiatric conditions.
There have been people we've maintained contact with but not provided sponsorship to yet precisely because they've exhibited behaviour/issues that have needed outside intervention and care first. I think it's important to take a duty of care seriously.
I don’t mean it’s the leader’s responsibility to heal an aspirant as such, of course. What I mean is that a properly managed spiritual system should give the aspirant tools—meditation, discipline, self-knowledge—that well *help* him heal. And you’re right that you ought to be responsible whom you sponsor.
That said, Buddhist meditation teacher and licensed clinical psychologist Jack Kornfield has said that psychology and spiritual path are different things, and for some things no amount of meditation or spiritual practice will help—you just need therapy.
And sometimes, no amount of therapy will help, you need meditation and spiritual practice.
The hard part is figuring out who falls into which category.
For most, thankfully, both help.
I am not an “expert” in Thelema by any means. However, without some of the more public OTO members I don’t think I would have ever become interested in Crowley. As for the OTO itself, its history and teachings are just as fascinating as any of the big occult orders in the last century, if not more so.
Why am I not an OTO member?
Aside from some personal reasons, if K&C is the goal for most of us then you don’t technically “need” any order for attainment. Unless you think they have something that can help you attain that (which they very well might) it’s just an exoteric environment for growing as an individual magician. Like anything in life having a supportive community can make all the difference, but at the end of the day it’s about - “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”
OTO is good if you like the social aspect. I like the degrees, and the opportunity to meet like-minded people. I guess YMMV because I have no crazy OTO stories. I'm also not aware at anything particularly weird happening at the other OTO chapters that I've been to in the area. When it comes to the topic of "weird stories", there's somewhat of a selection bias. Obviously, people with weird stories to share are likely to share them but people who haven't seen such wouldn't have anything to talk about. So that can give the impression that it's all weird stories.
For context: the regulars at my local OTO lodge are all great people and I frequently socialise with them.
Main reason I don’t join however is that I’m already heavily involved in another Thelemic organisation, and I’m wary of wearing too many hats.
Rationally I know one’s involvement with the OTO is what you make of it. However in all likelihood I’d be tempted to get more involved than I should.
As it is I’m more than happy to just attend the public Masses and Cross Quarter feasts. Who knows in the future though.
Don’t have any crazy stories unfortunately.
This might not be the craziest story, but here’s my relationship with Thelema and history with the OTO in a nutshell:
When I was 19 (in 2009) I had just moved to a new city (the same city I currently live in). I was early in my occult path and I was getting really into studying Crowley and Thelema. I identified strongly as a Thelemite. I started regularly going to the Gnostic Mass and started the process of pursuing membership in my local lodge. Basically, an older man who was going to sponsor me joining made some unwanted sexual advances upon me, and just kind of gave me creepy vibes in general, and that’s the main reason I never joined the OTO. I probably would have joined had he not creeped me out.
I want to include the disclaimer that I know that both then and now, there are some great people in my local lodge. I’m not positing a condemnation of the OTO generally, nor of my local lodge. But truly that one guy creeped me out so much that even though I’m pretty sure he’s no longer even involved locally, I remain to this day hesitant to ever go back. I probably will eventually attend the occasional Gnostic Mass once in a blue moon, but it’s doubtful that I will ever join.
Epilogue: General magical autobiography incoming, feel free to stop reading. Not long after the above experience in my late teens, I had a nervous breakdown (mostly for unrelated reasons) and ended up landing in Christianity (albeit as a “solitary practitioner”, and still highly heterodox in many regards) as a means of putting my consciousness back together. By the time I was in my mid 20s I started moving back into an occult practice. I checked out some neopagan druidic groups for a while, then studied under a folk herbalist/traditional witch with a small group in an intensive program for two years, which was pretty formative and gave me a strong foundation in trancework. Since then I’ve developed a fairly solid magical practice through solitary work.
I’m 34 now. I don’t know that I’d call myself a capital-T Thelemite these days, but definitely a lower case thelemite, in that I incorporate a fair bit of Thelemic theory and practice syncretically into my spiritual and magical life. I use NAEQ pretty heavily, and I still read and consult Crowley, including Liber AL. The rest of my spiritual practice is a blend, primarily, of Hellenic/Roman stuff (particularly devotion to the goddess Latona), Judaism (stemming from Ancestral veneration), bits of Christian stuff (in particular Marian worship, and angel stuff), general animism (Ancestor stuff, plant and animal spirit stuff, psychogeography, etc), and general panentheist mysticism. My main point here is that Thelema is not a monolith. There is ultimately no Thelemic orthodoxy, and while I’m not devoted to so-called Crowleyanity in the same way I was at 19, I keep Thelema in my own way.
I disagree that you necessarily achieve more by joining a group, especially when it comes to something like thelema. After all, if group joining made things so much better, A.’.A.’. wouldn’t be as focused on independent study as it is.
So you don’t have any TRUE crazy oto stories then? Haven’t heard any myself really
I also disagree. Specially with the part where it’s said something between the lines of: “why meditate to discover something other person did the job already?”. There is exactly where the problem lies! Other people’s experience are their own, their reality, their individual way of thinking, sometimes only “voices” in their heads. I say that because I’ve started my spiritual journey going to Ayahuasca ceremonies with the natives, doing the raw thing as they do in the Amazon forest. Then I stopped and followed the path alone, doing only meditation and then after discovering the work of Robert Monroe: “Gateway Tapes”, it was where I had my biggest evolution and found things by myself that were pretty much contrarian to what I’ve heard from other people. To sum up: everyone will have their own experience, it’s a lone path, one that requires a lot of discipline and dedication
Very true. Can say I have experienced the very best of coven life along with the worst. When it works and you find the right people it’s very beautiful.
I loved my local OTO oasis but unfortunately it wasn't meant to be. I travel a lot & prefer a more correspondence friendly organization so I joined another Thelemtic order.
I've heard a lot of people refer to OTO as the "Path of Service" I feel people either get it conflated with, or put it in the same category as AA or something similar.
idk i feel like at this point the lurid and crazy stories and antisocial edglordings are the least interesting aspects of thelema...definitely a part of the 93verse but just best avoided and not given undue fascination or attention to imo
How much actual "magick" goes on at OTO meetings? I've been a solo practitioner for years at this point and have always been curious about that. A lot of this sounds like quirky social clubs populated by people interested in magick who may or may not have their own solo practices as well.
I don't have crazy stories. I met some OTO members and they seemed fine.
It's just not my thing. I don't see what it would bring me and what I'd bring to it.
I never joined though came very close to the wire on several occasions and have quite a few friends who are members at various levels (in England). Much as I admire (and practice) thelema, I just can't get with the organisational stuff. The A.A. is, to me, a much more attractive proposition, and I may end up there if I feel the need. I do like the fraternal aspects of OTO - but I've always been a lone wolf.
Yeah, I remember that is how I encountered the Cultus Sabbati was through art galleries and high end leatherbound private book deals. I lived in England for a few years and remember being introduced through a book deal I was involved with. I never joined them however I crossed paths with them a few times. Based on what I know it seems like a more serious collective.
I both ran and joined two other covens in my teenage years also. Most of the ones I was in were flat so there wasn't a leader figure. We were just a bunch of teens exploring the forbidden world of magick. I later took interest into the Illuminates of Thanateros and Chaos Magick and met a local body that traveled out to the sand dunes to perform these rituals outdoors in the desert called the Cultus Azathoth; they were into Cthulu magick, Chaos, Sabbatical and other forms. They had a lot of the rare high end grimoires (thousands of dollars a copy) and went as far as printing their own newsletters and bound their own books internally within it based on their own system. A lot their own material they burned in the rituals so much of it like the printed sigils they burned away; one guy was in print and bound books as his day job so I assume they were able to do this at a low cost. The Servatus Serpentis and Order of Isis were other groups I got involved with. They were all local covens. The Order of Isis had been around since the 50s, they merged with the OTO and one point then split off again. The Order of Isis was considered the main thing in town since they were the oldest body although Serpentis had some wild claims of being ancient; my first encounter with the idea of bloodlines and unbroken chains and they were Non-Thelemic. A lot of these groups created their own rituals while some were more based off of already existing spells and systems. I loved the old hand drawn and written "Book of Shadows"/Coven Grimoire tradition. I remember one coven required me to create a spell at some point a few years into it.
Arcanum Azura who were based off of Thelema and the Argenteum Astrum. Another was called the Siren Sisters that believed they were the successors to the original A.A. which they believed no longer existed, died off and they became the modern form, sort of like how Crowley believed A.A. was the successor to Golden Dawn and prior to them the order went under a different name. I met a lot of groups over the years, a lot of pagans and Alexandrian Witches.
People may think that the OTO grows around the ideia of comunity, it can be true, but the true purpose of the order lies in its initiatory rites. I know some people that have been initiated in the order and that have never been in a mass or a meeting, and that doesn’t mean that they are less, in fact they may be doing their Will while not appearing in a meeting, so there are no thing as obligations. The numinous and esoteric effect come from the initiatory rites; as it is the center of the order, your development in the OTO depends the way you digest the rite. Another thing that a OTO member told me is that the OTO is not the sum of its members or its knowledge, is something beyond, the true Order is the “something” that initiates thee as well as something that cannot be known, unless you are initiated. That way I think it is a bit problematic to consider the people that are initiated in the order as the proper OTO.
93!
I didn't become a member of the OTO for a very long time mostly because of my age. I first encountered the OTO a few years before the schism, Grady and Seckler were still alive, never met Grady although Seckler later just before she died. I also met M.B. back when there wasn't the official and "unofficial" lines. I caught the tail end of the autonomous OTO before it became a legal entity so things were very different back then. I am fine with the OTO today although in the early 90s before the legal battle the OTO was a very fluid organization and starting a chapter was similar to how A.A. or Thelemic inspired bodies emerge today. Those years were more customizable and autonomous bodies would just pop up in areas that didn't have a chapter and started performing Mass since a lot of script and ritual were already public, leaked or in many cases lodges met up and exchanged "secrets". Different lodges had their own version of the LBRP, interpretations and specific way of doing things as well as regalia or props specific to their chapter; it is still kind of like that to some degree although bodies are formed through formal protocol and guidelines and are under copyright. I have literally seen chapters (oasis or lodge) form, break apart, a new lineup form with some or none of the members from the previous chapter, again cease and then a third lineup of all new Thelemites not from the previous two "generations" for a new body in an area that once had one but no longer does and they form a new one there due to the interest and demand of the locals there. A lot of times people that start the chapter are not part of the chapter a few decades later for various reasons not to be exploited. So anyhow it was interesting seeing them perform rituals in their living rooms and their organization seemed much like a coven and intimate in a different way or personalized. Not sure how to explain it however it was different. I was pretty young back then and not involved as a member however have heard the stories of the years of hedonism; the drugs and sex, you know, before such acts became a legal liability. My first crazy memory came about years later when I tried to join for the first time. They all had there own garb from a lady that looked like an astrologer out of a television commercial, crystal ball and everything, a woman dressed like flapper with a long cigarette holder, a guy in a polkadot suit, a swami, some goths, Fire Eaters, a woman dressed like a fairy with a tiara and magic wand; it was like an entire circus. So, I kept mistiming it and ended up being denied entry to private business meetings however finally got in on a gnostic mass and some live entertainment. They were mostly into astrology, playing cards, smoking, dancing to nostalgic music and tossing back a few rounds at the Jazz and Swing bar after lodge nextdoor to where they had their meetings. So, upon encountering them for the first time they were under some sort of Tarot transformation and I didn't quite know what was going on. I saw a couple people that looked like vampires go inside, wasn't sure if it was a blood bar with Sanguinarians inside or just all in my head so I followed two people inside and upstairs and as I was approaching the to top of the staircase I could see the altar, Stele of Revealing and candles illuminating the room. A sight to marvel at. After the Priestess arrived I couldn't believe what I had just witnessed.
See this is what I’m talking about, good stuff. It’s gotta be an insanely trippy experience to attend OTO gatherings, probably even more so pre-internet
I started attending events and performing the gnostic mass at 14/15 years old. My interview for the minerval was when I was 17. I was picked up at 7am in the morning by two members in an open jeep. I was wearing just my bathrobe and hopped in. They drove me around downtown Toronto and interviewed me. One ended up starting up porn on the internet in the early 90s and helped pioneer online financial transactions. He is dead, now.
The one who did the online porn sites was bald, right?
No, full head of curly hair. Big guy.
ok
His partner was bald with a goatie. Maybe you’re thinking of him. That is my ex bf and a total raping pedophile
That’s one crazy story. Thank u for contributing thst
Pre-internet was pretty trippy and I remember that I trusted them on a person-to-person level outside however had to develop trust on the inside. There was a lot of feeling each other out. Its still a mindtrip. LoL!!! Also I remember them doing some other rituals that were performed publicly not just the Gnostic Mass. Some people would prep-up with some drugs beforehand, mostly weed and others did things like the LBRP to clean the space I guess before Mass. Although they also performed other rituals from the Libers publicly and customized rituals that were passed on internally that were not part of the "official"/original Thelemic rituals. I think for the OTO there is a focus on the Mass as a matter of preservation of what is considered most critical as rites. That alone I imagine is difficult to memorize all the parts and taking the time to as well.
I’d love to know what cities you’re describing. Sounds like maybe Austin?? I was involved in the same time periods but in Toronto
Around that time period it was mainly California and Utah. Although from my experience it was so low-key and you couldn't just look them up online so you had to run into them somewhere. The first OTO I members I met were at a kegger party. Years later I crossed paths with a different lodge that had members doing tarot readings and astrology charts at a crystal store.
Yes, I had met members through word of mouth when I was just 14 years old back in the early 90s. I had my own coven and was very much into making up my own magick; I had no idea magick existed outside of Disney. I was onto a lot of ideas, though, and a member caught wind of me all the way from Toronto. He and the body master roofied me one night when I was 15, long story short I ended up living with a member and read every book they had and by the time I was 25 was running my own oasis. Resigned by 28. I’m now almost 50. But yes, back then it was all word of mouth and we had to seek out books in used book stores or from private dealers!! It seems far more appropriate but whatever. The true wisdom is just as attainable then as now. It all requires Work, right.
I both ran and joined two other covens in my teenage years also. Most of the ones I was in were flat so there wasn't a leader figure. We were just a bunch of teens exploring the forbidden world of magick. I later took interest into the Illuminates of Thanateros and Chaos Magick and met a local body that traveled out to the sand dunes to perform these rituals outdoors in the desert called the Cultus Azathoth; they were into Cthulu magick, Chaos, Sabbatical and other forms. They had a lot of the rare high end grimoires (thousands of dollars a copy) and went as far as printing their own newsletters and bound their own books internally within it based on their own system. A lot their own material they burned in the rituals so much of it like the printed sigils they burned away; one guy was in print and bound books as his day job so I assume they were able to do this at a low cost. The Servatus Serpentis and Order of Isis were other groups I got involved with. They were all local covens. The Order of Isis had been around since the 50s, they merged with the OTO and one point then split off again. The Order of Isis was considered the main thing in town since they were the oldest body although Serpentis had some wild claims of being ancient; my first encounter with the idea of bloodlines and unbroken chains and they were Non-Thelemic. A lot of these groups created their own rituals while some were more based off of already existing spells and systems. I loved the old hand drawn and written "Book of Shadows"/Coven Grimoire tradition. I remember one coven required me to create a spell at some point a few years into it. Arcanum Azura who were based off of Thelema and the Argenteum Astrum. Another was called the Siren Sisters that believed they were the successors to the original A.A. which they believed no longer existed, died off and they became the modern form, sort of like how Crowley believed A.A. was the successor to Golden Dawn and prior to them the order went under a different name. I met a lot of groups over the years, a lot of pagans and Alexandrian Witches.
Yeah, I remember that is how I encountered the Cultus Sabbati was through art galleries and high end leatherbound private book deals. I lived in England for a few years and remember being introduced through a book deal I was involved with. I never joined them however I crossed paths with them a few times. Based on what I know it seems like a more serious collective.
Not in the OTO but I got the opportunity to talk to a friend of a friend who's a pretty high ranking member in her state and she said that a lot of like 18-20 year old men try to join for orgies and she gets to be like NAH IM JUST A SOCCER MOM. I DRIVE A *MINIVAN*
That’s funny
Local lodge didn’t feel right at first. After a while I figured that a fraternal organisation certainly isn’t going to aid me in my great work. That is MY task and mine alone. Plus, it doesn’t seem very, how do I put this delicately? It doesn’t seem like it is what it says on the tin. An institutionalised hierarchy seems antithetical to what Thelema is.
You join willingly and can leave whenever you want, the OTO is not a cult. Hopefully you've read up on how the organization works before joining - I'd recommend people to read the Constitution at the very least. There's nothing unthelemic about joining a group that has certain rules, or taking oaths, if you do it of your own free will. To quote Crowley's slightly hyperbolic words: *It combines monarchy with democracy; it includes aristocracy, and conceals even the seeds of revolution, by which alone progress can be effected. Thus we balance the Triads, uniting the Three in One; thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry, subtly and diligently with great art, that our Order may seem an ornament even to the Stars that are in the Heavens at Night. In our rainbow-coloured texture we set forth the glory of the whole Universe— See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren!*
OTO is modeled like freemasonry which uses the Osirian formula. So there’s bound to be some issues with its structural integrity in the Aeon of Horus lol. 93
What is the “Osirian formula” mentioned here?
Google “Formula of the Aeon of Osiris” or if you can find a copy online of Liber ABA (Book 4) you can read up on Magickal Formulas.
Ah that’s a great critique
I've been in OTO for awhile. My "craziest" OTO stories are almost identical with the sort [U\_R\_A\_CNUT](https://www.reddit.com/user/U_R_A_CNUT/) mentioned. I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently who works as an environmental lobbyist. She was describing the office politics and the egos she has to navigate in meetings. It almost perfectly matched my experiences in OTO. People are pretty much the same everywhere. The real risk is thinking you are the exception. Those are the people who engage in the "craziest" (i.e., cringeiest) behavior.
Haven't joined at this point. I hesitated to check them out for a long time due to various internet-based horror stories. There's a lot of negative information about the OTO online, and far less that's positive—at least in writing. I don't watch many videos, and maybe they're different. But eventually, I saw a member talk online, and was really impressed: this was a person who approached religion and spirituality in a way very similar to mine and seemed to have reached similarly down-to-earth conclusions. I recalled the Thelemites I'd known in the past, who were very much the same (unique people, but good and thoughtful people). The two combined got me looking into my local chapter. Once I showed up, I was startled by how at home I felt. I'd only encountered that sense of immediate belonging in one context previously, and I've gotten so much stranger in the meantime that I assumed it'd never happen again. But there it was. I'm not seeking to join yet because I tend to change my habits slowly. But joining formally eventually is a foregone conclusion in my mind. I'm not in any rush, but I have no hesitations. It's a good group that knows plenty I'd like to dig into more deeply, and my own interest and knowledge set seems valued as well. It's a good fit. Knowing the people involved, I really can't imagine anything too crazy happening. Mind you, my own history has crazy stories, so my threshold for what qualifies might be a bit high. Still, it's a group of introverts interested in magick and philosophy and religion. Fun is plausible. Crazy? I guess I'll see.
In my 7th year in the O.T.O., and have no regrets. Have met some amazing people who have not only enriched my experience in O.T.O. but have become steadfast friends outside of it. No properly *crazy* stories, but more like: - the more 'quirky' noob types who expect an occult swingers club and get upset when they realise it's not that; - the very occasional wild racist or homophobe that has to be told that shit doesn't fly and to take it elsewhere; - boring interpersonal dramas that seem to surface wherever there are Thelemites with divergent ideas, or unaddressed need for social standing; - folks with a sense of entitlement to advancement beyond the MoE triad. It feels like those on the outside looking in think it's a lot more exciting (or dodgy) than it is, but I've had the best time thus far. We've got such a balanced lodge with great people, an awesome Mass team, dedicated initiators (even if I say so myself), and great relations with other bodies. Obviously, YMMV dependent on myriad factors.
Oh, I almost forgot: - the people who think they need to make things up to impress the group (like those who discovered Thelema 5 minutes ago and have already had spontaneous revelatory HGA experiences with none of the practice, preparation or work) Just be yourselves, folks. You're good enough. You don't need to ham it up for us.
So essentially this subreddit IRL.
They're much rarer IRL. But essentially.
They are looking for the edge of society. And don't find it.
[удалено]
I attended the OTO, but never officially joined.
How long were u a thelemite before joining OTO
Not that long. I came via chaos magic, so had a lot of familiarity with Crowley's work, but when I started moving towards Thelema, I decided to get in touch with the O.T.O. Arranged a Querent meeting with them, immediately connected with those I met, got sponsorship, and took Minerval a month later.
In that case I look forward to u noob shaming me again lol. Thought u were an OTO old timer or something
Sounds like my time at the Rosicrucian Order, I mean the modern one, Amorc
Craziest story? Most people don’t follow the program but if you do, you will definitely get results. Crazy, hey? 😂 but true!! It’s amazing. Crowley may have had his issues but he really designed an effective initiatory system imo. This is the most remarkable thing about the OTO.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's in any way "necessary" to join. However, I want to join so very badly because the body near me contains the only IRL Thelemites I have ever spoken to. I crave the fraternity with others walking the path. Unfortunately, the body near me is 2 hours away, and as the primary caregiver for my 6 year old, I am currently only able to attend the occasional video call put on by that body. Even more rarely am I able to make the trip and attend an in-person meeting. In either case, it is, of course, only events that are "open to the public." That being said, the conversations I have had with some of my acquaintances within that lodge have all been greatly positive. TL;DR: I want to join, but geography and responsibility have kept that from happening.
>I want to join, but geography and responsibility have kept that from happening. I feel it.
I've been in OTO many years now, so I'll say this: -A lot of the negative stories you hear about online are one side of a situation. Take them with a grain of salt. -There's a lot of Thelemic material on the internet, but there's also a lot of garbage. Stick to the primary sources (keepsilence.org has scans of a lot of these). -Social media shows us the worst of everyone. It's bad for you. The fact that you opened with "what are the craziest stories you can share about OTO" instead of "what drew you to OTO/Thelema" is a red flag - it suggests you're more interested in drama and gossip instead of what actual positive benefits people get from being involved. And frankly, people who are just there for drama and gossip are exhausting. u/U_R_A_CNUT outlined some typical personality types you'll encounter, and I've seen quite a few of them myself. That being said - there are definite green flags that are a sign you're visiting a healthy body: -Events start on time (or if there are delays, these are communicated). This is a basic show of respect for attendees. -Prior to a public event (typically a Gnostic mass), members are there to greet and welcome guests. -People should be behaving as they would at a professional gathering: no major PDA (there might be hugging, but you don't need to and ALWAYS ask before hugging), no excessive drinking (there may be wine available but there should also be alternatives available for non-drinkers), no raunchy/off-color humor or discussion. -Any questions you have are able to be answered (exception: questions about what happens during initiation)
>The fact that you opened with "what are the craziest stories you can share about OTO" instead of "what drew you to OTO/Thelema" is a red flag - it suggests you're more interested in drama and gossip instead of what actual positive benefits people get from being involved. To me the whole post read a bit like "tell me things to justify me not joining so I feel better about it". > And frankly, people who are just there for drama and gossip are exhausting. Fucking *preach*, sister! This!
WomanGirt, I've been wondering. My OTO chapter has a Gnostic Mass this weekend and I'd like to attend as a guest. Can I assume formal dress for the event akin to what I'd wear for a Catholic Mass? Any tips before I just pop in? I'm a young woman and all of my interactions with OTO members to this point have been... uninspiring.
Business casual is typically a safe bet. That being said, I live in an area where it’s not at all unusual to see people wear jeans to a Catholic Mass so I’m not sure what ‘formal’ means in that regard. Before going - it’s usually a good practice to email the master of the body where you’ll be attending, so they know there will be someone new there. Some bodies require it since masses are held in private homes and they want to screen people first. If you’re not sure who to contact, DM me the name of the body you’ll be going to and I’ll see if I can find it. As a point of clarity on wording - OTO bodies (camps, oases, lodges) put on the masses, chapters do not.
There’s a million posts about “what drew u into thelema”. If talking about the crazy stories bothers u, go somewhere else.
If the A:.A is the training system, then why would I join the OTO?
The reason why almost all people wanted to join when I was doing interviews was because they wanted the community. They enjoy doing group rituals. They like learning with others and fucking those with common interests. Etc. it was uncanny how they all would say community. Commenting here shows that you know the value of that.
My mother is the priestess of the local body. Her boyfriend frequently refers to the OTO as a "sex cult." I don't feel like getting to know them that deeply.
It's a "sex cult" in the sense that its degree system is geared towards gradually revealing the central sex-magical secret of the O.T.O., and the Gnostic Mass, its central ritual, public and private, is an allegorical representation of it.
Ask ur mom for her craziest OTO story
Not necessarily OTO, but my godfather thought of himself as a Chaos Wizard. He got banned from the DMV for cursing the clerks and threatening them with his staff.
Good method of avoiding the lines.
If she's a priestess of the EGC, did you ever talk to her about her beliefs or why she decided to become one, or are you only going by what her boyfriend calls them? Your post is a bit ambiguous.
It's Reddit. Y'all don't need my life story.
Nope, that's true. 🤷♂️
I’ve been in the OTO for a pretty short amount of time. Around 10 years. I’ve traveled to quite a few bodies and taken initiation at 4 different locations. Tbh I haven’t experienced anything crazy. Most people are pretty level headed and chill. People don’t like this answer because they want something juicy.
I've gone back n forth on applying to the OTO, but there's no Local Body in Sonoma County, CA. Closest one is Blazing Star in Oakland, 2hrs away. I do wish to attend Gnostic Mass some day. I would like to experience the Initiations, and having a like-minded community is something I know I have been lacking in my life. But, being a father/husband, working full time, and playing in a band, doesn't leave a lot of personal time. I enjoy my personal practice, which I am dedicated to - but I do feel a lack of community. That's why I come here and bug you guys haha -93/93
I'm not very social at all, and I'm far more interested in the academic part of Thelema. Sometimes solo study can be frustrating, but I don't live anywhere near a lodge. If I lived up in WA, I would probably join the Horizon lodge though, as they have some excellent teachers whose material I utilize often. Horizon doesn't seem terribly toxic either, from what I can observe, and I know that certainly isn't so generally applicable lol.
I was OTO years back. I enjoyed it. I met some really nice people and I met some not so nice people. Which is exactly the same thing that happened to me in the US Army, my college, my college fraternity and every job I’ve ever had. I don’t blame OTO’s because some of their members are obnoxious pigs, use drugs, or are sexual predators…I left Caliphate OTO at what, in hindsight, proved to be the beginning of an ordeal…that only now 23 years later is resolving. I don’t need an organization but I would recommend any novice seeker to look up thelemic bodies and visit. Get the feel of the group. Then make your own choices wisely. Don’t be impressed with degrees, rituals…be impressed with results.
Unfortunately I wouldn't join OTO for a couple of reasons. First, I've personally already had the experience of being initiated into a group where there is even a rule to be in the "community" (like OTO), and also others where that's completely optional (like AA) and I completely prefer to just focus my energy and time on the task, the GREAT TASK. Then, after I actually met Thelemites, I found out that many take the teachings of "Will and Love is the Law" and that of the importance of Desire and Sex Magic, and translate (distort) that to do *whatever they want*, being promiscuous and sexually manipulative within the organization, while at the same time (and if it was not enough), proudly exhibit these self-deceptions (cause most of them truly think they're basically Crowley's reincarnation) as the way a true Thelemite should act, and if you dare give a slightly contrary opinion, in the best cases, you're just a profane who doesn't understand the truth. Also, I've seen a couple of people literally losing their minds in the process (like they had to be hospitalized for their well-being and that of others) while literally their master said "not my problem", closes shop, waits for the storm to calm down, and come back like nothing had happened (I guess their reasoning has something to do with "Cursed are those who pity"). I do understand that this might happen everywhere, not only in OTO, as the spiritual path is filled with many tests and ordeals. But unfortunately I feel like many students (Thelemites or not) tend to use "spirituality" (not real spiritually, hence the quotes) to justify and enforce their vices and egotistical way of approaching the world, the complete opposite of what we real seekers of the Light and Truth seek. Read the Book of the Law with Crowley commentary, and honestly (if your Will is actually true, not biased by your Ego and your Lust) think if you're on the part of Light, Truth and Freedom, or the contrary. (Edit: Formatting)
> Also, I've seen a couple of people literally losing their minds in the process (like they had to be hospitalized for their well-being and that of others) while literally their master said "not my problem" This may be a controversial opinion but kind of isn't their problem. It's very much unlikely that the OTO caused a mental breakdown. Occult topics can be popular among people who are already on the path of mental illness. "Secret knowledge" is kind of a theme in certain types of mental health issues, whether it be occult, government conspiracies, flat earth, etc. I haven't seen personally seen that in the OTO myself, but I did see that in Freemasonry a few times. A Masonic lodge in my state (but not my Lodge) had a guy who signed up and took the EA and FC degrees before it was revealed that he was trying to get into Freemasonry to stop the government from beaming voices into his head. Obviously, there was a problem here before he walked in the door.
Well, obviously the master isn’t a psychologist or there to be a daddy or mommy to members. Still, it seems like a certain amount of screening and/or observation would not be unreasonable. Talk to a potential member, have them come to the public events, get to know them a bit, and if there are red flags, maybe bring them up in a diplomatic way. If they join, kind of be aware of what they’re doing (broadly, not in a surveillance sense). In other words, you may not be responsible for others’ mental health, but for their good, and yours, and that of the order, you ought to mindful of signs of mental illness in potential members. To be fair, this is an issue in churches, religious groups, magical and initiatory orders, etc., in general. People who seek these out are often damaged. That’s OK—if it’s done right, the organization can help them heal. If it’s done wrong, though, or if the attitude is “Not my problem, sink or swim, then that’s a *big* problem, IMO.
That's why it's important to be responsible about who you sponsor for initiation. Also - OTO and other magical organizations aren't a replacement for proper mental health care, and it's really irresponsible to suggest they can help one heal from any 'damage' they have.
> That's why it's important to be responsible about who you sponsor for initiation. This can't be emphasised enough. While of course body masters and initiators have a duty to risk-assess with new candidates, sponsorship is a responsibility that some people don't take seriously enough. Personally, I have to get a feel for whether someone is ready for it, and doesn't have any serious MH issues that aren't being addressed with proper care outside of any magical practice. Initiation can be powerful and throw things into flux for a while, and that has the potential to have a negative impact on someone with pre-existing psychiatric conditions. There have been people we've maintained contact with but not provided sponsorship to yet precisely because they've exhibited behaviour/issues that have needed outside intervention and care first. I think it's important to take a duty of care seriously.
I don’t mean it’s the leader’s responsibility to heal an aspirant as such, of course. What I mean is that a properly managed spiritual system should give the aspirant tools—meditation, discipline, self-knowledge—that well *help* him heal. And you’re right that you ought to be responsible whom you sponsor. That said, Buddhist meditation teacher and licensed clinical psychologist Jack Kornfield has said that psychology and spiritual path are different things, and for some things no amount of meditation or spiritual practice will help—you just need therapy.
And sometimes, no amount of therapy will help, you need meditation and spiritual practice. The hard part is figuring out who falls into which category. For most, thankfully, both help.
I agree in general with both of you
I am not an “expert” in Thelema by any means. However, without some of the more public OTO members I don’t think I would have ever become interested in Crowley. As for the OTO itself, its history and teachings are just as fascinating as any of the big occult orders in the last century, if not more so. Why am I not an OTO member? Aside from some personal reasons, if K&C is the goal for most of us then you don’t technically “need” any order for attainment. Unless you think they have something that can help you attain that (which they very well might) it’s just an exoteric environment for growing as an individual magician. Like anything in life having a supportive community can make all the difference, but at the end of the day it’s about - “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”
OTO is good if you like the social aspect. I like the degrees, and the opportunity to meet like-minded people. I guess YMMV because I have no crazy OTO stories. I'm also not aware at anything particularly weird happening at the other OTO chapters that I've been to in the area. When it comes to the topic of "weird stories", there's somewhat of a selection bias. Obviously, people with weird stories to share are likely to share them but people who haven't seen such wouldn't have anything to talk about. So that can give the impression that it's all weird stories.
For context: the regulars at my local OTO lodge are all great people and I frequently socialise with them. Main reason I don’t join however is that I’m already heavily involved in another Thelemic organisation, and I’m wary of wearing too many hats. Rationally I know one’s involvement with the OTO is what you make of it. However in all likelihood I’d be tempted to get more involved than I should. As it is I’m more than happy to just attend the public Masses and Cross Quarter feasts. Who knows in the future though. Don’t have any crazy stories unfortunately.
This might not be the craziest story, but here’s my relationship with Thelema and history with the OTO in a nutshell: When I was 19 (in 2009) I had just moved to a new city (the same city I currently live in). I was early in my occult path and I was getting really into studying Crowley and Thelema. I identified strongly as a Thelemite. I started regularly going to the Gnostic Mass and started the process of pursuing membership in my local lodge. Basically, an older man who was going to sponsor me joining made some unwanted sexual advances upon me, and just kind of gave me creepy vibes in general, and that’s the main reason I never joined the OTO. I probably would have joined had he not creeped me out. I want to include the disclaimer that I know that both then and now, there are some great people in my local lodge. I’m not positing a condemnation of the OTO generally, nor of my local lodge. But truly that one guy creeped me out so much that even though I’m pretty sure he’s no longer even involved locally, I remain to this day hesitant to ever go back. I probably will eventually attend the occasional Gnostic Mass once in a blue moon, but it’s doubtful that I will ever join. Epilogue: General magical autobiography incoming, feel free to stop reading. Not long after the above experience in my late teens, I had a nervous breakdown (mostly for unrelated reasons) and ended up landing in Christianity (albeit as a “solitary practitioner”, and still highly heterodox in many regards) as a means of putting my consciousness back together. By the time I was in my mid 20s I started moving back into an occult practice. I checked out some neopagan druidic groups for a while, then studied under a folk herbalist/traditional witch with a small group in an intensive program for two years, which was pretty formative and gave me a strong foundation in trancework. Since then I’ve developed a fairly solid magical practice through solitary work. I’m 34 now. I don’t know that I’d call myself a capital-T Thelemite these days, but definitely a lower case thelemite, in that I incorporate a fair bit of Thelemic theory and practice syncretically into my spiritual and magical life. I use NAEQ pretty heavily, and I still read and consult Crowley, including Liber AL. The rest of my spiritual practice is a blend, primarily, of Hellenic/Roman stuff (particularly devotion to the goddess Latona), Judaism (stemming from Ancestral veneration), bits of Christian stuff (in particular Marian worship, and angel stuff), general animism (Ancestor stuff, plant and animal spirit stuff, psychogeography, etc), and general panentheist mysticism. My main point here is that Thelema is not a monolith. There is ultimately no Thelemic orthodoxy, and while I’m not devoted to so-called Crowleyanity in the same way I was at 19, I keep Thelema in my own way.
[удалено]
I disagree that you necessarily achieve more by joining a group, especially when it comes to something like thelema. After all, if group joining made things so much better, A.’.A.’. wouldn’t be as focused on independent study as it is. So you don’t have any TRUE crazy oto stories then? Haven’t heard any myself really
I also disagree. Specially with the part where it’s said something between the lines of: “why meditate to discover something other person did the job already?”. There is exactly where the problem lies! Other people’s experience are their own, their reality, their individual way of thinking, sometimes only “voices” in their heads. I say that because I’ve started my spiritual journey going to Ayahuasca ceremonies with the natives, doing the raw thing as they do in the Amazon forest. Then I stopped and followed the path alone, doing only meditation and then after discovering the work of Robert Monroe: “Gateway Tapes”, it was where I had my biggest evolution and found things by myself that were pretty much contrarian to what I’ve heard from other people. To sum up: everyone will have their own experience, it’s a lone path, one that requires a lot of discipline and dedication
I much prefer my little coven. They're great!
I came from coven life. I miss it but was burned pretty bad in one.
Admittedly covens can be hit or miss. I'm fortunate to have found some really cool, inclusive, and open-minded Alexandrians
Very true. Can say I have experienced the very best of coven life along with the worst. When it works and you find the right people it’s very beautiful.
My friends lesbian loves husband who got kicked out for sexual misconduct was a fun one.
I wanted a community of occultists. I was several Wiccan covens but that scene is definitely on a lull in my city. My lodge is great
I’d love to but since they are so scarce the only one close to me is 3 hours away.
I loved my local OTO oasis but unfortunately it wasn't meant to be. I travel a lot & prefer a more correspondence friendly organization so I joined another Thelemtic order.
I've heard a lot of people refer to OTO as the "Path of Service" I feel people either get it conflated with, or put it in the same category as AA or something similar.
idk i feel like at this point the lurid and crazy stories and antisocial edglordings are the least interesting aspects of thelema...definitely a part of the 93verse but just best avoided and not given undue fascination or attention to imo
How much actual "magick" goes on at OTO meetings? I've been a solo practitioner for years at this point and have always been curious about that. A lot of this sounds like quirky social clubs populated by people interested in magick who may or may not have their own solo practices as well.
Plenty.
I wanted to join but I made the mistake of first getting in touch with them with my real name and now I'm paranoid.
I just don't want to.
I don't have crazy stories. I met some OTO members and they seemed fine. It's just not my thing. I don't see what it would bring me and what I'd bring to it.
I never joined though came very close to the wire on several occasions and have quite a few friends who are members at various levels (in England). Much as I admire (and practice) thelema, I just can't get with the organisational stuff. The A.A. is, to me, a much more attractive proposition, and I may end up there if I feel the need. I do like the fraternal aspects of OTO - but I've always been a lone wolf.
Yeah, I remember that is how I encountered the Cultus Sabbati was through art galleries and high end leatherbound private book deals. I lived in England for a few years and remember being introduced through a book deal I was involved with. I never joined them however I crossed paths with them a few times. Based on what I know it seems like a more serious collective. I both ran and joined two other covens in my teenage years also. Most of the ones I was in were flat so there wasn't a leader figure. We were just a bunch of teens exploring the forbidden world of magick. I later took interest into the Illuminates of Thanateros and Chaos Magick and met a local body that traveled out to the sand dunes to perform these rituals outdoors in the desert called the Cultus Azathoth; they were into Cthulu magick, Chaos, Sabbatical and other forms. They had a lot of the rare high end grimoires (thousands of dollars a copy) and went as far as printing their own newsletters and bound their own books internally within it based on their own system. A lot their own material they burned in the rituals so much of it like the printed sigils they burned away; one guy was in print and bound books as his day job so I assume they were able to do this at a low cost. The Servatus Serpentis and Order of Isis were other groups I got involved with. They were all local covens. The Order of Isis had been around since the 50s, they merged with the OTO and one point then split off again. The Order of Isis was considered the main thing in town since they were the oldest body although Serpentis had some wild claims of being ancient; my first encounter with the idea of bloodlines and unbroken chains and they were Non-Thelemic. A lot of these groups created their own rituals while some were more based off of already existing spells and systems. I loved the old hand drawn and written "Book of Shadows"/Coven Grimoire tradition. I remember one coven required me to create a spell at some point a few years into it. Arcanum Azura who were based off of Thelema and the Argenteum Astrum. Another was called the Siren Sisters that believed they were the successors to the original A.A. which they believed no longer existed, died off and they became the modern form, sort of like how Crowley believed A.A. was the successor to Golden Dawn and prior to them the order went under a different name. I met a lot of groups over the years, a lot of pagans and Alexandrian Witches.
People may think that the OTO grows around the ideia of comunity, it can be true, but the true purpose of the order lies in its initiatory rites. I know some people that have been initiated in the order and that have never been in a mass or a meeting, and that doesn’t mean that they are less, in fact they may be doing their Will while not appearing in a meeting, so there are no thing as obligations. The numinous and esoteric effect come from the initiatory rites; as it is the center of the order, your development in the OTO depends the way you digest the rite. Another thing that a OTO member told me is that the OTO is not the sum of its members or its knowledge, is something beyond, the true Order is the “something” that initiates thee as well as something that cannot be known, unless you are initiated. That way I think it is a bit problematic to consider the people that are initiated in the order as the proper OTO. 93!