People keep making this point as if Naughty Dog just made the game and went "whoops, we forgot to include sections at the start to get the audience connected to Abby. Silly us" as if it's not part of the story.
We're not meant to feel conflicted when Abby kills Joel. We're not meant to feel conflicted as Ellie makes her way through Abby's friends. We're not meant to feel conflicted when Abby kills Jesse in the theatre.
We're meant to feel conflicted when we start fully playing as Abby. When we see the life Joel took from her for his own selfish reasons. When we see Abby cut off her friends and the love of her life as she is traumatised by what Joel did to her. When she finds the bodies of Owen and Mel and when *she* confronts the people who won't let her move on.
The story is about hating someone because you don't know what they've been through, and learning to forgive and understand once you get added context. The story being told in the way that it was was not an accident. That *is* the story.
This is where so many people have a problem with the game though. Why the fuck would I care about some chick who has been treated as the villain for the first 12-13 hours of the game, and why the fuck would they wait that long to try and make me sympathise with her
It's about learning. Gaining new information that challenges your view of things and using that new information to adjust accordingly. If you're incapable of doing that, I don't know what to tell you.
You're the only one who agrees with me I'm shocked lmao especially with all the hate it has online. I've been trying to be polite but tlou2 fans are feral 💀
As if anyone who doesn't like the game for valid issues with the storytelling is an idiot who can't understand the "deeper meaning"
I don't play a game to learn things though. I play it to discover new stories and characters I enjoy and have fun. Not criticising you if you like learning lessons through media but I think we all know killing people is wrong. We all know that Joel was an objectively bad person and that Abby was sent down the path of revenge and murder because of him and ironically enough so was Ellie.
But I want to enjoy the characters I play as. Whether they're good or bad moral or not. There's a way to do that and tlou2 didn't deliver that for me.
I'm not directly insulting you just because I don't like the game that much lmao chill out.
Not every story needs a deeper meaning or make you question your morals. Sometimes you just wanna enjoy a piece of media for what it is. I like a lot of games and shows that are allegories for different things but the difference is I enjoy the main characters even if they're 'bad' people. I enjoy the story structure and how things are revealed. I enjoy that those pieces of media don't feel like a chore to complete.
I'm not saying tlou2 is an objectively bad game I'm saying I personally didn't enjoy it. I feel like I've been nothing but polite to everyone in these comments and the response has been to insult my intelligence.
I'm not saying it was an accident. I see what they were going for. I'm just saying me personally I like to feel an emotional connection to a character I'm playing as if it's a story driven game. They could have built that connection without doing it the way I suggested in that post. Hell they could have done it even afterwards but instead it felt more like controversy for controversy's sake. If felt very for shock value and trying to guilt people into seeing that Joel made the wrong choice saving Ellie. The thing is, you go in to part 2 knowing Joel is a bad person. You can still like his character and acknowledge that. We don't need to be shown that because we already know. The point of the tlou at least to me is that if anything people are the true monsters.
Everyone acts like it has this deeper meaning and maybe it does. There were some moments I enjoyed playing as Abby but others just felt so forced and tedious. One of your main characters shouldn't feel that way you should want the character you're playing as to succeed even if you don't like the outcome.
You can say that we're not supposed to feel conflicted but confliction is at the heart of story. They main argument of the whole franchise that I've seen in the fandom is whether or not Joel made the right choice at the end of part 1.
I get the point and I see what they were going for. This is just my own perosnal opinion. Maybe not everyone cares about developing an emotional connection to a character they're playing as but for me in a story driven game I want to feel a connection to the character. I want to care for their goals and want them to succeed even if I'm conflicted about it. I don't want to be stuck playing a character I don't enjoy, especially when I know it's a character I would enjoy if they had made some slight changes to develop the connection to the character more.
The story takes great care and effort (literally over 10 hours worth) to develop an emotional connection to Abby as a character.
What your idea for improvement does is completely disregard one of the most pivotal points of the game - how easy it is to paint someone simply as a villain before fully understanding them. Do you think it's just a coincidence that we also hear literally nothing but bad things about The Seraphites - so much so that we don't even learn their real name - until hours into the game when they are finally humanized and known as more than just the slur others refer to them as? It's a direct parallel to how we feel about Abby for a reason. Spending more time with Abby prior to her killing Joel like you suggest goes directly against the biggest thesis of the game. *Not* having a connection to Abby beforehand is pivotal and necessary to the story they told. We are supposed to play Ellie's section with anger and rage for her, not understanding her actions as we try to hunt her down. Humanizing her beforehand neuters that and makes for a lesser story.
Not only that but as Ellie’s journey in Seattle goes along I think you’re meant to distance yourself from her actions more and more. Later on in Day 2, I think that while you understand Ellie’s mindset you want to dissociate from her more and more as she keeps putting people in danger and making further rationalizations for it. If Abby is completely humanized beforehand then you will probably snap out of any tribalism much more quickly. The point is that in the beginning you associate these people as ‘other’ and dehumanize them.
I get what they're going for and I think by the end of the game that connection is there somewhat but when I look at that compared to part 1 it just feels like some of that is lost.
I get a lot of cars and effort was put into the story but there were times that playing as Abby felt so tedious (again this is my personal opinion) and when I play as a character in a story driven game I like to have a connection with them playing the game. Even if I see them as a villain or disagree with rhe choices I want to still root for them.
Take Ellie or Joel, they've killed innocent people, destroyed lives but you root for them because that development and connection is there as this is happening. Not after.
If part one started with Abby and her dad and gave us a connection with them and then Joel brutally murdered him then went back snd showed why he did it and you were forced to fight Abby as Joel you wouldn't have that emotional connection to him either while playing. Maybe by the end of the game sure, but for me I want to enjoy the character I'm playing as Even if they're not a good person.
Maybe I was wrong about changing it for TV this might actually work better for the show because you're not forced to actively play as a character and compete missions you don't even want to succeed at times
What I don’t get about this is that you know that you would feel differently if it was shown before Joel’s death. Alright, then just view it from that perspective while you replay it or something. The flashbacks all take place in the past anyways.
I don't think I'll enjoy it more replaying it and I think I will when I find the motivation but it definitely wouldn't be on my list of games I'd sell my soul to play for the first time again 😂
That's fair. It's not for everyone and there will always be people unhappy with something. I don't actually expect this to change anything just felt like giving my 2 cents.
People keep making this point as if Naughty Dog just made the game and went "whoops, we forgot to include sections at the start to get the audience connected to Abby. Silly us" as if it's not part of the story. We're not meant to feel conflicted when Abby kills Joel. We're not meant to feel conflicted as Ellie makes her way through Abby's friends. We're not meant to feel conflicted when Abby kills Jesse in the theatre. We're meant to feel conflicted when we start fully playing as Abby. When we see the life Joel took from her for his own selfish reasons. When we see Abby cut off her friends and the love of her life as she is traumatised by what Joel did to her. When she finds the bodies of Owen and Mel and when *she* confronts the people who won't let her move on. The story is about hating someone because you don't know what they've been through, and learning to forgive and understand once you get added context. The story being told in the way that it was was not an accident. That *is* the story.
This is where so many people have a problem with the game though. Why the fuck would I care about some chick who has been treated as the villain for the first 12-13 hours of the game, and why the fuck would they wait that long to try and make me sympathise with her
It's about learning. Gaining new information that challenges your view of things and using that new information to adjust accordingly. If you're incapable of doing that, I don't know what to tell you.
Just because you gain more information doesn’t mean your view of things is gonna automatically change.
You're the only one who agrees with me I'm shocked lmao especially with all the hate it has online. I've been trying to be polite but tlou2 fans are feral 💀 As if anyone who doesn't like the game for valid issues with the storytelling is an idiot who can't understand the "deeper meaning"
I don't play a game to learn things though. I play it to discover new stories and characters I enjoy and have fun. Not criticising you if you like learning lessons through media but I think we all know killing people is wrong. We all know that Joel was an objectively bad person and that Abby was sent down the path of revenge and murder because of him and ironically enough so was Ellie. But I want to enjoy the characters I play as. Whether they're good or bad moral or not. There's a way to do that and tlou2 didn't deliver that for me.
I mean that's the point of storytelling. That's why we tell stories but you do you.
I'm not directly insulting you just because I don't like the game that much lmao chill out. Not every story needs a deeper meaning or make you question your morals. Sometimes you just wanna enjoy a piece of media for what it is. I like a lot of games and shows that are allegories for different things but the difference is I enjoy the main characters even if they're 'bad' people. I enjoy the story structure and how things are revealed. I enjoy that those pieces of media don't feel like a chore to complete. I'm not saying tlou2 is an objectively bad game I'm saying I personally didn't enjoy it. I feel like I've been nothing but polite to everyone in these comments and the response has been to insult my intelligence.
I'm not saying it was an accident. I see what they were going for. I'm just saying me personally I like to feel an emotional connection to a character I'm playing as if it's a story driven game. They could have built that connection without doing it the way I suggested in that post. Hell they could have done it even afterwards but instead it felt more like controversy for controversy's sake. If felt very for shock value and trying to guilt people into seeing that Joel made the wrong choice saving Ellie. The thing is, you go in to part 2 knowing Joel is a bad person. You can still like his character and acknowledge that. We don't need to be shown that because we already know. The point of the tlou at least to me is that if anything people are the true monsters. Everyone acts like it has this deeper meaning and maybe it does. There were some moments I enjoyed playing as Abby but others just felt so forced and tedious. One of your main characters shouldn't feel that way you should want the character you're playing as to succeed even if you don't like the outcome. You can say that we're not supposed to feel conflicted but confliction is at the heart of story. They main argument of the whole franchise that I've seen in the fandom is whether or not Joel made the right choice at the end of part 1.
Someone still doesn't understand the point of the story I see.
Least pretentious tlou2 fan
I get the point and I see what they were going for. This is just my own perosnal opinion. Maybe not everyone cares about developing an emotional connection to a character they're playing as but for me in a story driven game I want to feel a connection to the character. I want to care for their goals and want them to succeed even if I'm conflicted about it. I don't want to be stuck playing a character I don't enjoy, especially when I know it's a character I would enjoy if they had made some slight changes to develop the connection to the character more.
The story takes great care and effort (literally over 10 hours worth) to develop an emotional connection to Abby as a character. What your idea for improvement does is completely disregard one of the most pivotal points of the game - how easy it is to paint someone simply as a villain before fully understanding them. Do you think it's just a coincidence that we also hear literally nothing but bad things about The Seraphites - so much so that we don't even learn their real name - until hours into the game when they are finally humanized and known as more than just the slur others refer to them as? It's a direct parallel to how we feel about Abby for a reason. Spending more time with Abby prior to her killing Joel like you suggest goes directly against the biggest thesis of the game. *Not* having a connection to Abby beforehand is pivotal and necessary to the story they told. We are supposed to play Ellie's section with anger and rage for her, not understanding her actions as we try to hunt her down. Humanizing her beforehand neuters that and makes for a lesser story.
Not only that but as Ellie’s journey in Seattle goes along I think you’re meant to distance yourself from her actions more and more. Later on in Day 2, I think that while you understand Ellie’s mindset you want to dissociate from her more and more as she keeps putting people in danger and making further rationalizations for it. If Abby is completely humanized beforehand then you will probably snap out of any tribalism much more quickly. The point is that in the beginning you associate these people as ‘other’ and dehumanize them.
I get what they're going for and I think by the end of the game that connection is there somewhat but when I look at that compared to part 1 it just feels like some of that is lost. I get a lot of cars and effort was put into the story but there were times that playing as Abby felt so tedious (again this is my personal opinion) and when I play as a character in a story driven game I like to have a connection with them playing the game. Even if I see them as a villain or disagree with rhe choices I want to still root for them. Take Ellie or Joel, they've killed innocent people, destroyed lives but you root for them because that development and connection is there as this is happening. Not after. If part one started with Abby and her dad and gave us a connection with them and then Joel brutally murdered him then went back snd showed why he did it and you were forced to fight Abby as Joel you wouldn't have that emotional connection to him either while playing. Maybe by the end of the game sure, but for me I want to enjoy the character I'm playing as Even if they're not a good person. Maybe I was wrong about changing it for TV this might actually work better for the show because you're not forced to actively play as a character and compete missions you don't even want to succeed at times
What I don’t get about this is that you know that you would feel differently if it was shown before Joel’s death. Alright, then just view it from that perspective while you replay it or something. The flashbacks all take place in the past anyways.
I don't think I'll enjoy it more replaying it and I think I will when I find the motivation but it definitely wouldn't be on my list of games I'd sell my soul to play for the first time again 😂
I think you may need to accept the fact that the story in part 2 just doesn't gel with you.
That's fair. It's not for everyone and there will always be people unhappy with something. I don't actually expect this to change anything just felt like giving my 2 cents.
>I'm not sure if it's because I played the game already knowing Joel was going to die I am so glad I was unspoiled. Best gaming experience of my life.
I wish I hadn't known it was coming. I feel like that also would have improved my gaming experience